Today on Become A Calm Mama, you get double the parent coaches! My guest, Eileen Devine, specializes in supporting parents who are raising kids with neurobehavioral conditions. 

• Signs that your child might be struggling with a neurobehavioral condition
• Common challenges for kids with neurobehavioral conditions and their parents
• Eileen’s favorite mantra for difficult moments
• 3 key factors to find strategies that work for your kid’s brain

Listen as Eileen’s shares her “brain first” approach to parenting, along with practical strategies to support your child and yourself as you figure out what works best for your kid’s unique brain.

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If your child is experiencing a neurobehavioral condition or if you’re seeing behavior that seems really out of bounds, extreme or scary, this episode will give you hope and tools for a calmer future.

Eileen Devine works in Portland, OR as a therapist and coach supporting parents of children with special needs. Eileen has over 15 years of clinical experience and is the adoptive mother of a child with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder (FASD), a serious neurobehavioral condition. 

She believes that when we understand the way a child's brain works, we then understand the meaning behind challenging behaviors. You’ve probably heard me say that feelings drive behavior. Eileen will show you how the way your child’s brain interprets the world influences their behavior, too. 

What Are Neurobehavioral Conditions?

Simply put, neurobehavioral conditions happen when someone’s brain works differently. As a result, a person experiences the world differently than society expects, and it can show up in behaviors. 

There are a lot of reasons why this can happen (sometimes we know the reason, and sometimes we don’t). There might be a medical diagnosis of ADHD, autism, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder or prenatal or postnatal trauma. Neurobehavioral conditions can also show up in kids with neuroimmune conditions, brain inflammation or rare seizure disorders. 

Eileen explains that, while some parents get a clear diagnosis or explanation of the cause of their child’s condition, not all do. And it can be discouraging for parents to relentlessly search for a diagnosis, thinking it will tell them everything they need to know.

The fact is that all of these diagnoses point to the brain, and no matter the cause, you need to work with the symptoms to see behavioral change.

Parenting Mindset Shifts

 The behaviors that come with neurobehavioral conditions can be really challenging for parents. 

You might struggle with deeply held beliefs about what it looks like to parent a child of a certain age. 

It’s easy to become reactive when your child is rigid in their thoughts or lacks tolerance for minor frustrations or can’t understand other people’s perspectives. 

You might even make that leap that these are more than behaviors - they are your kid’s character. It’s scary to think that your child isn’t growing into a good person.

But your child is not their behavior. And with these brain-based differences, it will be necessary to make certain accommodations. 

A major mind shift that Eileen helps her clients make is realizing that these behaviors are not because your child doesn’t care. They’re not lazy. They’re not manipulating you. They might simply be in an environment or have expectations on them that they don’t have the skills to meet right now. 

Some other mindset shifts that Eileen loves can also be used as mantras when you’re in a difficult moment:

• My child would be doing better if they could.
• This is as hard as I think it is. And also, I’m going to be okay.
• Stay soft. 
• I am dealing with this.

Another major shift comes when you can fully accept who your child is. From this place, you can begin to set yourself up so that you have the endurance to parent your unique child for the remainder of their life, even when many people in our society won’t understand.

A Brain First Approach to Parenting

It’s one thing to understand that your child’s brain works differently. It’s another thing entirely to figure out how to manage your relationship and their behaviors on a daily basis. 

The brain first lens is really two sides of the same coin. One side is about your kid’s neurobiology, how their brain works differently and their fragile nervous system. The other side is about regulating your own nervous system.

Just as we start with Calm and taking a pause break in the Calm Mama world, Eileen encourages parents to take a second between their initial, visceral reaction and what they do next. As long as everyone is safe, focus on calming yourself.

She says, “It really is a waste of a parent's precious and limited energy to try to do anything else except to regulate their own nervous system.” 

Stop talking, stop reacting. Give yourself permission and however much time it takes to regulate yourself so that you can come back and lead from a place of empathy and compassion.

Once the storm has passed, you can start to think about what skills are lacking and how to make accommodations and fill those gaps in a way that works for your kid’s brain. 

Start with a real, honest evaluation of your expectations, as well as your child’s ability to meet them. Knowing that their brain works differently, are your expectations still appropriate? Ask yourself what the brain has to do in order to be successful in meeting your expectation or completing that task? Does your child have that skill? 

Often, there is a mismatch there. You kid might have a lag in executive function, language, communication, emotional regulation, sensory processing or other skills. That gap leads to chronic frustration for your child and might show up as explosiveness, shutting down or extreme anxiety.

When you see this connection, the behavior starts to make a lot more sense, and you can start looking at ways to accommodate for your kid’s differences. 

Just as I say with compassionate parenting, using a brain-first approach is a long game. You might not see immediate results, but short compliance isn’t really what we’re after. This is a bigger transformation that won’t happen overnight.

You are not alone in this parenting journey. There are other families struggling in the same ways that you are. And support is available to you. 

I want to leave you with Eileen’s encouragement that by changing your approach, you won’t be working any harder at parenting. You’ve already been working so hard. That energy is just going to be put somewhere different - that will actually create progress. 

Free Resources:

Get your copy of the Stop Yelling Cheat Sheet!

In this free guide you’ll discover:

✨ A simple tool to stop yelling once you’ve started (This one thing will get you calm.)

✨ 40 things to do instead of yelling. (You only need to pick one!)

✨ Exactly why you yell. (And how to stop yourself from starting.)

✨A script to say to your kids when you yell. (So they don't follow you around!)

Download the Stop Yelling Cheat Sheet here

Connect with Eileen:

• Learn more about Eileen and her work at https://www.eileendevine.com
• Connect on Facebook
• Follow her on IG @eileen.devine_brain.first 
• Register for the free “Brain First” workshop

Connect With Darlynn: 

• Book a complimentary session with Darlynn
• Learn about the different parenting programs at www.calmmamacoaching.com
• Follow me on Instagram @darlynnchildress for daily tips 
• Rate and review the podcast on Itunes

Welcome back to become a calm mama. I'm your host. I'm Darlene

Childress, and I am a parent coach and parent educator. And today

on the podcast, I am hosting another parent

coach. Her name is Eileen Devine, and she is a

specialist in helping support parents who are raising

kids with neurobehavioral conditions. And on the pod, she talks

all about what that means and who she helps, and

we give really practical strategies on how to, you

know, support you all. But I want to just introduce her before we

get into it. Eileen Devine works in Portland, Oregon as a

therapist and a coach supporting parents with children with

special needs. She's also a consultant for families that are

impacted by fetal alcohol syndrome, pans,

pandas, and other neurobehavioral conditions. And through her

private practice, she is a licensed clinical social worker

and has been working in the field of parent education

for over 15 years. And she brings a very similar

philosophy as mine, And that's when we understand the

way a child's brain works, then we can understand the

meaning behind the challenging behaviors. Like I always say,

feelings drive behavior. And she's saying the way that our brain

interprets the world is driving behavior. And her

goal is to not only support parents in feeling more competent

and confident in connecting with their child, she also wants

to help support parents so they feel less lonely and less

overwhelmed. So I think you're gonna love this episode so

much, and I invite you to take a listen.

As I said in the intro, today, I am having Eileen

Devine on the podcast. Eileen, welcome. Thank you so

much. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. I am so excited

because why I love your work is because it's

so aligned with what I teach on the podcast and what I teach with my

clients. And it really is having a perspective

that people's behavior is coming from either

their emotions or, you know, their developmental

stage or what their capacity is, where their nervous system is at the

time. Yeah. And I love that you have, you know,

focused on parents who are raising kids with neurobehavioral

conditions. And so I wanted to let you kinda define that for us

and and then we'll get all into it. So Sure. Yeah.

So neurobehavioral conditions, it's really brains

that work differently for some reason. Sometimes we know. Sometimes

we don't know why that is. And all of these

brains that work differently, that person experiences

the world differently than society

expects, than oftentimes parents expect.

And what that means is they're in a world that

doesn't understand they have this really significant difference

that needs to be accommodated for, and so they have behavioral

symptoms. So the parents that I work with have kids with brains that

work differently and really challenging,

relentless, exhausting, sometimes scary

behavioral symptoms. And so the work that I do with them is helping

them understand how their child's brain works differently

because it's been impacted in some way

and what those behaviors mean so that they can parent

their child in a way, that is different, that

accommodates for that brain difference. And what they then

see over time is that those behavioral symptoms calm

down. Their child begins to settle in their environments in

ways that sometimes these parents have never experienced

that before with their child. Mhmm. That is in a

nutshell who I work with. Yeah. That's so good.

I see that too in my work just where if some if you

come to the you approach the child with compassionate lens while still holding

firm with the boundary, the child is able to kind

of understand, like, oh, I have support here. Oh,

I'm, you know, being seen. I'm being validated. I'm being understood.

And that can be very challenging

if you have a kid whose behaviors are really out of bounds

of what, we think is allowed

or, you know, typical and you have, you know,

to teach boundary work in such a more

exhausting extreme way, I would imagine.

So but it it would say it works. That's what we're doing here is like

giving hope because it might feel as

if this is so challenging and so hard and, like,

you know, is it ever gonna make a difference? And you're here saying,

yes. You can absolutely help your

children. Yes. Yeah. There is a lot of hope. I I

have a teenager who had lives with a really serious neurobehavioral condition.

And so I was fortunate enough to find this information

about how to parent from this brain based lens when she was

about 3, so over a decade now. And so I have that

personal experience knowing, you know, I wouldn't do this work if

there truly wasn't any hope or I didn't see things get better. Mhmm. But

many of the families that I've worked with, they're coming to this situation

when their kids are middle schoolers or even high schoolers, not all of them, but

many of them. So they've had, you know, sometimes a decade

of this rising tension and conflict in their home where the

parents have literally tried everything,

to help their child, and they're left feeling like nothing

works. And my personal belief about that, just

hearing these stories over and over again, is that so much of

what these parents are given,

come from this very entrenched behavioral lens that we have in

our society. Like, your child's doing something that none of

us think is good or right or appropriate.

Right? Maybe even even unsafe, scary. Right?

And so the way that you do that is you use your power

that you have as an adult or a parent, and you try to control them.

And that's really what a lot of these techniques come down

to. And there's reasons, and it's all rooted in

neuroscience research and what we know about the brain why that doesn't

work. So say it works short it

not maybe for your clientele, but it does work short term

sometimes if you trigger fear or you trigger power over,

but it doesn't create the long term change that we're all seeking

for our kids. Yeah. And so it's also,

I think, helpful for any parent who's practicing,

you know, brain first approach or, you know, compassion first

approach that it's a little bit of a long game. We're

not looking for short term compliance necessarily.

Right? It's just yeah. And that can feel I always say it's

like you're losing the power struggle. Like, you know,

you're getting it in the short term. It might feel that way. Yeah.

Yeah. We talk the parents that I work with, we talk a lot about

yeah, I'm very upfront with them, but this is not gonna change overnight. And you

didn't get here overnight. We can't expect that. And if anyone promises you that

to run because it's just not possible.

Like, what we're talking about is so much more complex than

that, this transformation. It's all about relationship and rewiring.

Right? Unlearning as much as you are learning new things.

But what what I hear you talking about, which comes up all the

time, is parents'

deeply held beliefs and values and what

they thought it meant to parent a child of a certain

age. And that in order to be a good parent,

you have these expectations that no way am I

gonna, you know, be flexible on that boundary or that

expectation. Because then I wouldn't be towing the line.

I wouldn't be holding them accountable. I wouldn't be teaching responsibility.

I'd be letting them get away with something. Right? Mhmm. But when we

talk about accommodating our kids who have these brain

based differences and lacking skills, a really

loving and compassionate and necessary

accommodation is to do a real honest

evaluation of the expectations you've had for them. And

do they have the skills to meet those expectations? Now

that you know their brain works differently in these very specific ways,

is this even an appropriate expectation? So that's there's

ways that this show shows up like around chores or homework or, you know, I

say almost like lower level. It's not lower level for these parents. They're getting into

these conflicts daily about these more minor

expectations. But with the parents I work with, oftentimes, it's

like, can my child go to school? Like, is the

school environment one that they can handle and

navigate? And it's not their fault. Right? It's not just a child who's

saying, I you know? Oh, they're lazy. They're manipulating. They

don't care about anything. That's not it at all. That environment requires

things from them that they do not have the skills to meet. And so

adjusting that expectation of like, maybe

school isn't the right fit for my child right now, and then what?

I mean, that's a major mind shift for so many parents.

Right? Mhmm. So helping parents make that leap, like, okay.

I understand what you're saying about their brain working differently and what

they may need that a neurotypical child, for example, doesn't need. But how do

I make that leap into my day to day relationship with

that child, and how do I tolerate the time

that it takes. Right? So going back to your point, I feel like a lot

of the work I do is helping them make that leap, but also helping

them tolerate the time it takes. Right?

But one of the things I say all the time is you're not gonna be

working any harder. Right? That's so true. Feels like

a steep learning curve, but, you're already working

so hard. This is just about putting that

energy somewhere different so that you can actually see some

progress. Right? It might actually be easier in some

ways because you're not choosing

these big battles at the time. You know, you're just

kind of slowing your role a little bit, working on a

relationship, working making sure the person feels seen, you know,

the child feels like seen, you know, meeting them where they

are and, you know, coaching that skill skill gap or supporting

them in that skill gap, seeing what where what is

the skill gap here? Like, you know, you

I was deep deep diving on your website, which is so helpful. Like any parent

who's struggling, I highly recommend that you check out

Eileen's website. But, you know, you can't sit for extended period

of times, can attend school regularly, impulsive, doesn't do

their homework, doesn't get tasks started independently.

If the task is really complex, you can't remember things, rules,

routines. So instead of seeing that as

something that's wrong with your child, like, that they're doing it on purpose,

that they're I think that that

phrase, like, my kids manipulating me has been so

damaging. And it's like your child

wants to be seen as capable. They wanna be helpful. They

wanna be validated. They want they want to be, quote, unquote, good.

And if they're not, then most likely there's a

gap, either a skill gap or an emotional gap. Right? And so

when you slow down and you try to assess that, I would imagine

you create a new playing field, you create a new baseline, but that you have

actual improvement. You can get towards you

know, move towards some new goal. Mhmm. Yes. Yeah.

And some of the like, what you some of those examples

you gave, like, that's directly tied, right, to their lagging

cognitive skills. But there's some that I I know that parents have a little

more reactivity to. Like, those are difficult and also things

like just being so rigid cognitively. Right? Or

having a low tolerance

for minor frustrations. Right? Not being able to

take somebody else's perspective into view, not being

able to step into somebody else's shoes, not being able to put

somebody else's needs above your own. Right? Like that, I find

parents really leap to this perspective of that is my

child's character. Mhmm. Like, they're just

not turning into a good person. Like, they really start

to feel that level of desperation. So when we can

shift and say, well, what does the brain have to do

in order to be empathetic, in order to tolerate

even minor frustrations, in in order to just go with the

flow? Right? It's it's a lot, and it's

really, really difficult. But that's you know, parents aren't

taught that. I mean, I certainly before parenting my

daughter, I gave no thought to what my brain did for

me every day. Right? It was a privilege I lived with that I didn't even

know I had. So I I have a lot of empathy and compassion for

the parents who come to me feeling that way about their child and not

knowing what to do about it. Yeah. And either

I think a lot of parents will think, you know, I must have done

something wrong. Like, I'm like, I'm it's my fault. I'm a bad

parent or like or they look for maybe in their

partner or the bio parent. Like, oh,

they you know, it's their genes or it's my genes. Like, I

I just think that there's a lot of trying to understand how this

happened, and I'm not sure if that's helpful. I

it doesn't seem like it seems like it would be a rabbit hole people could

easily go down. Do you see that? I do see that. And that's

actually where I think it's really settling for a parent

to lean on the research that

shows us clearly what actually is happening. If your

child has a brain that works differently and we get all different kinds of

diagnoses that can Yeah. I was gonna ask you to give some examples for people

to hear what those could be. Mhmm. Okay. So I think some of the

most common and well known familiar are

probably ADHD, autism.

Right? There are some like, my daughter has fetal

alcohol spectrum disorder, so prenatal substance exposure,

prenatal trauma. So if mom is in a

domestic violence situation, for example, and is pregnant, that changes

the growing fetus, their development in their brain. We know that based on

research. Postnatal trauma. I

work with a lot of parents who have kids with neuroimmune

conditions, so basically brain inflammation.

I work with parents who have kids with rare seizure

disorders. All of those diagnoses

point to the brain. Sometimes parents know what it is or

they've had a provider that have told them what it is, and sometimes they

don't. And the the I think the really discouraging thing

for a lot of parents is they relentlessly go after a

diagnosis because they believe that when they get that label,

it's gonna tell them everything they need to know when,

unfortunately, that's rarely the case. Because you're going to be

working with the symptoms no matter what. Right? The behavioral

symptoms is what you're gonna be, supporting them

in and and parenting around. And those That's right. Are

gonna be what they are. They already already have them. That's right.

That's right. And you take a child who is of the same age with the

same diagnosis and you put them side by side, there's still gonna be some

differences in the way their brain works differently. There will be an a lot of

overlap, but there's some differences there that are really important for that parent to

know. Right? So when you're given a list of strategies, like, here's a list of

strategies that you use for kids with ADHD, Nothing wrong with that. Very well

attended. And maybe a few of them do work, but the majority of them may

not because it's not based on that unique child and the way that their

brain works. Right? Yeah. So when I think about

these diagnoses, and I'm not anti diagnosis. There's really important

reasons to get one. Medication management, for example, benefits, that kind

of thing. But in the day to day relationship with their child,

the way I encourage to think about it is the brain is the organizing

principle. So all of those diagnoses that I just read off,

they all point to the brain and say, something about the brain works

differently here. That's what all these people are telling us who have given this diagnosis

is what the medical chart has shown. Right? This is what I've

observed as a parent. And so let's start there, that the brain works

differently. Let's dive in deep into what that exactly

means in terms of the way that child navigates their world, experiences the

world, and how do you accommodate for that as a parent so that they experience

less distress in their day to day? Yeah. That's where things start to get

better. Yeah. So I wanna get into some of those strategies for sure, but

I I like, my process

is, you know, calm, connect, limits that correct. So I developed this

parenting process. Mhmm. And calm is all about the parent. Right?

Mhmm. It's really Yep. Being

able to show up in

compassion, in understanding, in, you know, that from that,

like, okay. This behavior is not a character or

problem. It's not like a you know, he's a jerk or she's a, you know,

a psychopath. I've had these thoughts about my own children. Both my

kids have neurodivergence in ADHD,

sensory processing, you know, things like that. Mhmm.

And moving out of that thought, you need to be out of your own, like,

judgment and criticism and anxiety. You have to be out of it in

order to get into your kid's world and then think clearly and all of that.

So let's let's talk a little bit about what you see

where these parents are typically coming from, like, where what's their,

that I think parents who are listening who are like, yeah. My kid

is has these issues. Yeah. That they're like

like to be kind of, oh, you might be feeling this. You might be feeling

that. That can be very soothing. Right? That you're normalizing that. So

where do you see the parents kinda starting from, and then what are some strategies

for them to get to calm as I call it? Yeah. Yeah.

So the parents that I work with I mean, they don't come to me because

things are going well. Right? They come to me because things are

really, really awful for them.

And they have dwindling belief, if any,

left that things will get better. And the reason is because they've like we said

before, they really have truly tried everything, and

nothing seems to work in terms of helping their child

settle settle down or calm down or have her going to talk about

that. Many of the parents that I work with

have truly experienced trauma in their parenting experience.

And so that's a result of the hyper vigilance

with behaviors, explosive behaviors oftentimes. I

have parents who have described their situation of living

in a an abusive relationship that they

cannot get out of. I had that. I remember describing

it to my friend. My son was almost 5 and we were at this,

like, little dinner, mom dinner. And I said, I just

feel like I'm being abused by my 4 year old. And I,

like, was like crying about it. And I left that

dinner and my friend said, you know, how you're feeling is

not normal. Like, it's

it's not it's hard. It's not supposed to be as hard as you're describing

it. There may be something else going on. Obviously, I had

to code my own figure out what the heck was so triggering

me about my son, but also he wasn't well.

And I he needed support that I was not equipped to

give and I found that work kinda similar to you really early. Yeah.

And now he's 20 and great. But No. You were so

lucky to have that friend who has it sounds like

she or she or he, I assume she She. Yeah. She it's Tiffany, everybody.

Yeah. I always talk about her. She had such a unique

perspective that most of the parents I work with experience exactly the

opposite where I mean, similar when my daughter was 3 or 4, people are like,

well, that's a tough age. And I was like, no. No. No. No. No. This

is not just that tough age. Like, this is different.

Right? And the parents that I work with have their experiences

always I mean, almost like gaslighting. Right? It's well, it is gaslighting

a lot of experiences. So they've had relationships fall to the wayside.

There's families I've worked with that have had to the,

parents have had to separate not because they're unhappy with their

relationship, but because they can't have the child who's struggling

in the same home as the other kids. Lots of concerns about the siblings.

So things are pretty, like I said,

pretty terrible, pretty elevated, pretty relentless.

These parents are completely exhausted.

I'm sure and, physically, I I see I see it show up physically, like a

lot of illness or colds or body pain.

You know. Yep. Your body doesn't lie. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Depression, anxiety, the hyper vigilance. I

remember with my son, I started to implement a lot of good practices and

he sort of settled and, like, we've found different schooling options and all those

things. So he kinda was his nervous system was more managed and he could

access executive function. And but and I

remember he was around 7. We were at the park, and

I had been hovering so close to him for so many years because he was

aggressive, and he would, like, hit kids, random kids on the park in the playground

and put sand in their eyes. I mean, just terrible behaviors.

And that I was still right up on him.

And I remember thinking, why am I so, like, right up on

him? Like, why I'm so close to him? You know, he's, like, underneath the slide

or whatever. Yeah. And noticing other parents are far away and they're chit chatting and

they're having their, you know, Starbucks. And then I was like, wait. It's

because he hits. He hits hits. And I was like, wait. He hasn't really hit

in a long time. Yeah. It took me I think that's what you're talking about,

trauma response. It took me a while to recognize we

weren't there anymore. Yes. Which is good. Hope hope for everybody.

You don't even get to the other side. The things right. The things do get

better. But, yes, you get entrenched in patterns that kept him

safe and kept him safe and kept other kids Mhmm.

Safe. And it's not surprising that it would take some conscious

effort to unlearn those patterns. Right? Mhmm. Yeah.

And then, of course, the rage. I mean, that's my whole work is around mom

rage really, and I was so rageful. I could not figure it out. And it

was my trauma of, like, my early

childhood trauma, parenting a kid who had so

many behavioral challenges made

me feel so unsafe as a person. Yes. So then

I was on guard to protect myself and I was just

in my in a spin cycle between the 2 of us.

So, yeah, I can really identify with that pain and

struggle that those parents are going through. Oh, no. It definitely

sounds like you can. But, you know, there's

so many parents that I've worked with where their experience has never been

considered before, which just blows my mind. Mhmm. But that's

why I always talk about this brain first lens that I teach parents. It

has two sides of of a coin. And one is about their child's unique

neurobiology, how their brain works differently and their very fragile

nervous system, which is part of what you're speaking to too.

And then the other side of the coin, which is at least 50%, if

not more, is how they're doing. And their nervous system

stability, are they in that protective fight or flight

state? Right? Mhmm. How has that then become this vicious,

contagious cycle with their child who has this fragile nervous system?

Right? No wonder they're stuck in this pattern and they can't get

unstuck and things are just getting worse. It all makes sense. Mhmm. And that's the

hopeful news too. It all makes sense.

Yes. Yes. Where you're at is is normal.

And I I wanted to speak for just a second. I was

thinking about, like, the loneliness of it. Mhmm. That's what

I hear from parents I work with that have kids who are

neurotypical, like, that it's

feel but he gets what you're going

through. You know, you you say the one, like, cuckoo

behavior, like, you're like everyone's like, yeah, yeah, mine too, my kid too,

And then you're like, and then they grabbed a knife, and then they were running

towards me, and then I had to, like, lock myself in the garage, and everyone's

like Yes. Yes. And mom

mom vigilance socially is also always at play

and then the mom's like, oh, don't play with so and so. Like, they make

a little note and all of a sudden your kid maybe isn't invited to stuff.

God, it's so I think it's so painful. It breaks my heart.

Yes. When I first started working with

parents and I was doing, my one on one work

with them, which I still do, but that was

all I did at the time. I kept hearing from parents over and over again,

you're the only one who would believe me or could

relate to, like, what happened today in my home. And I was like, well,

that's just not true because I meet with people all day. They

could relate. And so that's then I started doing group work, and

I have a community called the resilience room. And it's specifically

for that exact reason because so many of these parents

cannot find anyone who can relate to their

experience. And so if you take, like, what keeps us

well and what keeps us healthy, it's being able to be truly

seen and heard, right, and have our experience validated.

If something incredibly stressful is happening to you every single day of your

life and there's no one that can truly understand that

or truly see you and reflect that back to you, your health is

going to suffer. Right? It's a biological imperative that we have that.

So this community of parents that I have, they're just so wonderful about

taking care of each other and showing up for each other.

And it really truly is probably the most healing work I

do. Right? Because it is that powerful. Mhmm.

And and the opposite side, that loneliness and isolation is

equally powerful to the detriment of their health.

Mhmm. Now I noticed on your website that resilience room is closed. Does

that what's that how does that work? Because I think that anyone, like, honestly,

anyone listening yeah. Join my community, of course. But,

like, if you're in this world and you have these neurobehavioral

conditions, go in Eileen's world. That's how I feel. It's

like, get this support because

it it is it is so so valuable. So what does

that look like? Do you open it every once in a while? How do how

people get in? Yeah. So, on my website, there's,

a place where you can sign up for the wait list, and then you get

notifications about when we open. We open every 3 months or or so, about 4

times a year. Okay. Perfect. The the reason for that is that I like

to tend to the community and allow them to

come together and come together as a community, right,

after each opening. And so we close for a bit and kind of let

people settle in. And then, yeah, several months later, I'll

open again. So Yeah. It's that way they get to know each other. These are

the new members of our community. Mhmm. And, you know, welcoming them

in. That's so beautiful. And then those people come in,

really in pain and ready and have a lot of questions and

right? They're like, yeah. So you wanna kind of have a system of

bringing people in and having them really supported. I love that. That's beautiful.

Okay. So we can go in 2 directions. We can talk more about

the, like, mindset shifts that need to happen for the

parents, or we can get into some practical strategies

of, you know, how to handle it when your kid is losing their

mind. And maybe they go together a little

bit. I was gonna say there probably is some overlap. Yeah. It's

like so, you know, I I've had this podcast for a long time, so

long time listeners will know some of my tools. So I like just to connect

the dots for them if they're listening into some new tool

to not think The thing about parent education, there's like so many things

and a lot of times they're still pretty similar. Yeah.

So I teach a concept called the pause break, and it really

is sort of the permission to pause, reset our nervous system,

connect with ourselves. It's not an emergency. I can

handle this. You know, what do I need?

Then shifting into connect, which is, like, what do they need? Where are my kids

coming from? Yeah. So I think some of the the things you're gonna

talk about how to handle those in the moment challenging moments Yeah. Is

similar to that. So just Very similar. Yeah. Just piggybacking

on anyone who's listening. They're like, well, I already do the pause break. Now I

gotta do Eileen's stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No. It sounds like it's right. It's all

speaking to the same well, the same science. Right? About

our nervous system. Yeah. Yep. Yes. I always talk

about you can just get a second between your visceral

reaction and your next what you do

next. Like, things Mhmm. There's so much hope in that pause. I love

how you I know. You talk about it. Yeah. So we talk about I always

like grow your pause, like, grow your, you

know, grow that that reaction, like, it yeah. One

second, 2 seconds, 10 seconds, 45 seconds. Like, the

the you get better at it. And I remember when I was

first practicing this myself and developing these tools, I would,

like, have a watch and look at my clock, see

how much time has passed and how time

it feels like everything is happening at once Yeah. And

it's, you know, a a 100 minutes high and you're like,

I paused for 20 seconds. Like, it felt like an eternity.

Right? Yes. Yes. Yes. And giving yourself

permission to Mhmm. Yeah. To take the time that it takes.

Because, I mean, again, if we go back to kind of the traditional

parenting mindset or the behavior lens or however we wanna describe

it, Oftentimes, parents feel like, oh, that

was so out of bounds. That was so inappropriate,

so disrespectful. I must address it immediately

and pretty harshly. Like, really reach for our power and do what we can to

just bam. Right? Address that behavior. And that's what

means it means to be a good parent who holds your child accountable.

Right? Yeah. When when what it sounds like you're giving them permission to do and

what I certainly would advise and recommend

too is there's nothing good that's gonna happen when you are

in that dysregulated state because it's contagious. We know that.

Right? So giving yourself the time it takes, that pause that

you described, so that you can come back and truly be

regulated and authentically lead from a place of

empathy and compassion. Right? Yep. You can't fake it.

Yep. Calm connect. I do say sometimes you're gonna fake

it in the beginning, and that's okay. It

won't you won't be as effective with your

redirect or whatever you're gonna the way you show up, the next thing you do

you parent the way you parent. But it's less

reactive. Right? Yes. It's like less chaotic,

less, you know, and then it it's not effective because your

kid's like, you made a lesser end of me or whatever.

And you're not because you're not because you're not

actually regulated, but that's okay.

You're not as reactive. It's like a Yes. Like,

just making a little tiny incremental

change is so powerful to the relationship, to the nervous systems

involved, the amygdala, all those things. So Yes. I just wanna give everyone so

much patience and grace. Like Yes.

Any beat you take is worth it. That's right. You you won.

Yes. That's right. And when we talk about mind shifts, like, here's the

overlap, right, that you were alluding to. The mind shifts

can become mantras in that moment. Right? My child would be doing better if they

could. Right? Say it again. Say it again. Say it again. I So beautiful.

My child would be doing better if they could.

Or Yeah. This is as hard as I think it is.

And also, I'm gonna be okay. Right? Mhmm. So being

able to I mean, one of my mantras

and it was a real mind shift for me as well. They really are 1

in the same in many ways, was to stay soft. And

what that means is when I'm in the midst of a challenging moment with

my daughter where she's really struggling to see that as a struggle

for her pain and distress. Right? She's not doing it to me on purpose.

She's really struggling. And if I can stay soft in

my tone of voice, in my facial,

you know, features, my body,

then that will allow me to be more regulated. Right?

She's so sensitive to any sort of tension or stress even that I

hold in my body. So being able to do that. But

in that moment, it really is a waste

of a parent's precious and limited energy to try to do anything

else except to regulate their own nervous system, that

pause that you talk about, and really allow their child

to regulate. So I talk about framing talk about practical skills like stop

talking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's like the first part of the

pause break is literally stop talking. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. I

really love what you just said, and I wanna highlight it. It's,

you know, it's a waste of precious

energy, parenting energy to do anything but regulate

yourself. Like That's right. It's

like, if you obviously, you're

overriding your own biology. Right? Your own nervous system

that's already told you this is an emergency. And obviously, kid running around a

knife feels like an emergency. Some of these behaviors that people are

dealing with in this population is they're they can be very,

very extreme. We're not getting into it because then that's like, you know, like parenting

porn or whatever they call it. Like, we don't wanna do that.

But we know that families are in the shits.

Like, it is not great what they are dealing with, and it is

so hard for our brain to think, I

can deal with this later. Yes. Yes.

Well and and maybe also I mean, the other maybe

mind shift is I am dealing with this. I'm

not waiting till later. I am dealing with this. It's just in a very,

very different way than we were ever taught to, quote, unquote, deal

with challenging behaviors. Right? Oh my god. That's so weird. Nothing that can

happen without noticing what's happening within

us first. Right? So if we are already in that reactive

mode, letting that visceral reaction take over, it's like, well,

that's probably not gonna lead to a great place. The chances are not good.

Right? The other piece that I think is really important for parents

to understand is that, safety first, obviously.

Yeah. After that, being regulated as

a parent does not mean you think everything's okay.

It doesn't mean, like, oh, I'm just happy with this behavior that's happening.

Well, that's okay for you to break the dog door down. And

whenever you feel upset, that's fine. No problem. Like, just break

windows that, you know, however you regulate yourself, I'm here for

you. Right. And that's okay. If says no parent educator

ever. No. No. But it's a real big misconception.

It is. I'm gonna be regulated. No. That's permissive. That's saying

I'm okay with what's happening and I'm not cool with that. Understandably.

It's like I'm okay with you. You are

okay, kid. I'm okay with you. Mhmm.

We're gonna work on these behaviors. Right? It's like

yeah. Oh, I I I'm I am dealing with

this. Is it I I that just, like, blew my mind because I do

teach I'm gonna do something about this later and, like, as a way

to calm so we don't get into the emergency of, like, I got fix it,

change it, stop it, solve it. Like, we don't have to get all that. Stop

it. Don't do that. You know? That's right. And I like, I'm gonna deal with

this behavior later. I love this new one. Like, I am

dealing with this, like, by staying regulated. I am

dealing with this by connecting first. Like, that's

so empowering. So thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome.

Yeah. The piece about lagging cognitive skills that we started

out talking about, oftentimes parents think, like, oh, I've gotta do something

about that in the moment. Like, identify the lagging skill and accommodate and,

like, nope. That is not the time. Like, that's all

outside of the moment. When the storm has passed, you have a few

minutes. Yeah. Yourself like, okay. What

just happened there? How can I trace it back to the

very, very, very beginning of when I started to see my child get

just even a little bit agitated or whatever it looks like for

them? And what might that have to do with their

unique brain function? Like, what does that have to do with their lagging

skills? And how will I then use that information

to put in accommodations proactively so that next time

this situation inevitably comes up again, because it

will, I have those different supports in this place. I've

scaffold in some way. I've adjusted expectations in some way, whatever it might

be. Right? That's the other piece of it. That problem solving,

I kept rattled it off, a moment ago, but the problem

solving Did she solve it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That to me is like outside

the moment. That's what we do. So

yeah. I think that's really good. I've been trying to think about that in my

own work because I have this come on the process and it's like, you know,

yeah. I got it's like in the moment and out of the moment. They're it

you practice both, but it looks different. And Mhmm. Limit

set is really how I taught teach it,

but it it's the similar it's like, okay. Where's the skill

gap? Where's the, value

gap? Like, sometime I don't know that. I don't wanna get

on to the content. But it's like, where's the gap here and

what kind of do I need to put into place? Either some new

some new rules. I don't know how you teach rules. We do not have to

get into it, but it's some new rules here or some new support

or and then but it still has to be unregulated and come coming from

it that place that I'm okay. Yeah. I see my

child is struggling working on it. Now what are we

gonna do differently in the future? And I I like how you teach

it where it's like in the moment and then outside the

moment. Like, there's 2 2

strategies doing similar work with it.

Like, you handle the in the moment like this, and then you go

back. And so I wanted to see if you you could talk a little

bit about that survey and, like,

what are you what are some of the things that you teach parents and how

how do you teach parents to teach their kids?

Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question. So I

help parents understand where their child's lagging

skills are. And so we know, you know, we know every behavior is

connected to our brain. And so parents are like, well, that's cool. But how do

I begin to make sense of that for my child? So we get really

crystal clear on what lagging skills their child has. Is

it executive function or language and communication or

emotional regulation or sensory processing? Like, is it all

of that? Right? And then we start to

look at the tasks and the expectations they have for their child and

ask that question. What does the brain have to do

in order to be successful in meeting that expectation or

completing that task? And does your child have that skill? And

99% of the time, it's like, oh, okay. Now I see

there's a poor fit. They don't have the skill. No wonder

there's this chronic frustration that comes out

as explosiveness or shutting down or

extreme anxiety. Like, now I get it. That

behavior is now making more sense to me. And so we talk

about accommodations, just like we would with any child who has a

physical difference. Yeah. Put those into place. So that's a

lot of that kinda one side of the coin. The other side of the coin

is helping parents ease into the acceptance of

who their child is. What does that mean for

them? What does it mean for their child? And how do

they set themselves up so that they have the

endurance to parent this really

unique child from this lens that many

people in our society don't understand for

the remainder of their life as a parent of this

child. Right? So that's that's no easy

that's no easy task, for any parent. Yeah. So needing a

lot of I'm thinking of when my one of my

kids has, an eating disorder called Afrid. I'm

sure you're familiar with it. It's avoidant food restrictive

intake disorder. Yep. And when I took him

to OT and I learned that there's, like, 27 steps to

eating, like, so many things that have to

like, you have to be willing to be in the room with food and then

look at the food and smell the food and touch the food. Like,

there was, like, all these steps that I didn't see. I just

was, like, you sit down and you eat. You the the eating the

complex part of eating is chewing and swallowing. Right? That's, like, kinda what I

thought. And then I got all of this education, and I was, like, oh, so

let's start where they're at and

just practice being in the room when there's this That's

right. Smell is present. You know? That's right. And

that was really helpful because then I wasn't so upset about

the end. Like, oh, why aren't we here? It's like, oh, because there's a bunch

of things that we need to practice first before we get to

the, you know, the the,

you know, the holy grail of, you know, eating mashed

potatoes at Thanksgiving or whatever it was. You know? Yes. That's right. By

the way, we're not there. Like, that's just the truth is the acceptance piece of,

like, this is someone who's gonna have to work through this for

their their lifetime and figure out their own relationship to whatever it

is. Letting that go. I remember my son

being 10 and just finally saying, I'm not gonna

fight this anymore. It's ruining

me. It's ruining his our relationship. I just

went cal and that's it.

Mhmm. Like, personal life. And my standard was so low and other people

were like, you're letting him have ice cream. He did he eat his

hamburger. I'm like, I don't know. Is

this calories in ice cream? Great. He's gonna live. Yeah. He's gonna have some

food in his belly. Yeah. That's right. So I think that's where we have to

be willing to, like, figure

out what works, where we're at. Well, what I hear you talking

about is it's great that we have high priorities as parents, but

some of us don't have the luxury of holding all those high

priorities at the same time. We have to decide what's highest priority.

And it's in you you mentioned this low standard, and what I hear

is you had this very highest priority

that he get food in his belly. And so you adjusted that.

You didn't lower it to some embarrassing level. You

adjusted it so that you could meet that highest priority

of getting him some sort of nutrition. Right? Yeah. It's it's

yeah. It's such a shift. It's such and it's so you

cannot I think, you know, I'm just like a regular mom in a

regular community with regular kids, and that's what a lot of the

parents that we're talking about. That's, you know, they're

just regular humans trying to figure it out. And Yeah. It's not

you don't owe everyone an explanation. I think that's also helpful. It's

like, you know, the

you you don't have to explain everything to everybody. It's like, yep. They'll this works

for our family. Thanks. That's right. Yep.

Again, managing your precious energy. Yes. I love that. I

love that. Well, this has been extremely valuable

for me. So yay. Yay. So so glad.

Which means that I know everyone's gonna love it. And anyone who

has a kid with neurobehavioral condition,

absolutely seek out Eileen. So, you have a coaching

program. You have all private sessions that you do. You have a

course I saw on your website. People can buy self guided course.

You have the community, the resilience room, getting in on that,

getting in when the doors open. And then there's a lot of

great resources on your website. You have an audio course,

which is awesome, and that that's for free. And then just

tons of great source, like, on your blog. So deep

dive into Eileen's work if you're at all doing this. So the website

is Eileen Devine, and it's spelled eileendevine,

d e v I n e. And how can people

find you on on social? What what are your handles?

So I'm on Instagram and it's Eileen Devine Brain

First. If you just type that in, you'll find it. And then also Facebook just

with my name, Eileen Devine, missus therapist and coach, but you'd find me

if you just type that in. So those are the two places I hang out

for the most part. Yeah. Okay. Good. Good. Good. Well, thank

you so much. I love meeting, like, a like

minded parent educator and to work with, like, you know, talk to someone

who's doing similar work. I just grateful for you

for what you do and what you're offering to your community. Thank you.

It's been wonderful to talk with you. I'm glad we were able to connect. So

thanks for having me. Yeah. Alright, everyone. So this week,

get back into the pause break, all of you. You need to be remembering, go

back to early episodes, review that, and check out Eileen's

website. And I will talk to you next

time.