It's the traders economy. Revel's Shahar Nechmad speaks about, the place where physical art co exists along side digital art. Discover how trending creators get spotted for future trends, and how royalty distribution the right way is a game changer and the creator economy doubling down for value content. All these and more, only on The Future of NFTs.

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Revel.xyz

Participants:

• Nadja Bester (CEO & Co-founder of AdLunam)

• Shahar Nechmad (CEO of Revel.xyz)

00:23

Nadja

Hey, Web3 world. This is Nadja Bester from AdLunam and you are listening to The Future of NFTs, the show that looks beyond current NFT use cases to what Non-Fungible Token technology is evolving into. All this as seen through the eyes and built by the brilliant minds of the fascinating guest speakers we speak to each week. AdLunam is building the industry's first IDO Launchpad with a Proof of Attention allocation mechanism. We also deep dive into the world of NFTs because as an investment platform, we are contributing to the Future of NFTs through our Engage to Earn model, which is powered by dynamic NFT investor profiles and allocation fractionalization. Very excited to be having you with us on the show today Shahar, I'm going to probably butcher your name, so I apologize in advance and please correct me. Shahar Nechmad. I'm not sure if I'm anywhere close to how I'm pronouncing companies in the world, among them EBay salesforce, Google, the UK government, Accenture, various cell phone providers and more.

01:37

Nadja

Very happy to be on the show today, representing us as joining us as a representative of again, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly. What, can you please pronounce it and then I don't make any unnecessary mistakes?

01:57

Shahar

Yeah. Revel@.xyz

02:01

Nadja

Alright, awesome. On the side of caution, Revel is a very great platform and you are definitely going to hear very shortly about why that is. What I personally love, the description that I love best. So, as a social collectibles platform, which we are going to get into, the way that Revel describe themselves is as a cross between Instagram and Robinhood, wrapped in social game dynamics. Instagram, of course, I think needs no introduction. As a social media platform, Robinhood, you might know an investing in trading platform that also became quite famous during the GameStop saga. Revel blends both of these approaches, the Instagram approach as well as the Robinhood approach. Just before the call right now, I went onto the app, I registered an account, which was a really cool onboarding process. I'm very excited to get into things. Shahar, thank you so much for joining us.

03:14

Nadja

This is such a pertinent discussion at such a pertinent time. I just returned from NFT Paris and the future is bright. Let's put it this way, there were 15,000 people in attendance. I was just telling my team earlier on the call on our monthly team call today, just how incredible it is to see during a market like the one that we've been having. All of the news about NFTs being dead, being greatly over exaggerated because you really could tell just the amount of people coming from a web2 space or from other traditional spaces. There were children walking around with their parents and so much of the conference was art focused, which it's so difficult when you are having conversations with people who are not as well versed in the NFT space for them to say, well, NFT, it's just that digital art stuff that doesn't make sense and the monkey pictures.

04:18

Nadja

I'm really happy to be talking to you about this today because I think that the conversation within the industry is far more developed than the PR machine is putting what's happening out there in the rest of the world. With that, thank you for joining us and please let me know, what are you guys building and how did you get into building this?

04:44

Shahar

Yeah, so Revel, you said, we call it a social collectible platform where basically we allow anyone to create his own baseball cards. In the US, when you're a kid, you kind of exchange baseball cards. I grew up in Israel and for me it was like Dungeons and Dragons card, but every country has their own thing and we basically allow anyone to create their own digital collectibles. You can use a lot of our AI tools to create your own art, or you can bring the same kind of photos and videos you used to post to TikTok and Instagram and other social networks and instead of just posting them to a feed, you can actually convert them to some playing cards. This, of course, backed by web3 and NFT, but then you can very easily start to trade and sell them to other people in a very special way.

05:38

Shahar

We really kind of try to mimic what I kind of call it. The experience in high school was where I could come and say, I'll give you five of my cards for two of your cards, and I want one dollars more. You can say, Well, I don't want these deals, but if you give me these ten cars, I'm going to give you these five cars. We can kind of hugger and trade with each other and stuff like that. So it's a very social experience. We also kind of added the typical social network features of following after people, follow the influencers. You like the creators, you like getting messages from them, chatting with other creators, all this kind of stuff. It feels a bit more like a game. There's a lot of other gaming mechanics that we kind of implemented than your typical OpenSea or Blur or typical NFT marketplace.

06:35

Nadja

Yeah. Well, this is precisely why I'm so excited to have you on the show, because I think what we've been seeing over the last, I would say especially the last year or so, is there's been a proliferation of NFT marketplaces. We have been seeing the same because at AdLunam, I mean, is essentially a Launchpad. We've been seeing the same where when we initially envisioned the birth of AdLunam, Launchpads were far more. There was one over there and there was a new one over here, but there weren't too many. Ever since, every platform seems to have a Launchpad. What we've seen, because our focus as a Launchpad is so incredibly on engagement, on the social aspect, we've seen that we've been able to ride this wave and come out still very relevant on the other end. This is something that I'm seeing with you guys as well, because if I'm an artist on the one hand, which marketplace do I choose?

07:44

Nadja

09:04

Nadja

I think what you guys are doing with the platform is really building into the core of your DNA as a company, this engagement and social aspect. I'm very curious, you mentioned creators and influences. I have been working on a book where I look explaining Web3 and looking very closely at what this is going to mean for creators and the creator economy going forward. This I mean, Web3 as a whole is just a huge opportunity for creators, either existing creators that are already creating and already have brands and platforms or new ones that continue to come in. Because since COVID people's eyes have opened, they realize that there's a different way than to go to the Office eight to five and come home tired and sleep on the weekend. I'm really interested to hear in building the platform and in building I mean, as I said earlier, I loved going on the app and the onboarding process was completely easy and straightforward.

10:12

Nadja

Who is it that you are targeting and what is your vision for the platform going forward in terms of user adoption?

10:21

Shahar

Yeah, there's two ways to look at this. The first thing is that we really early on decided that we're not going to go just after the web3 community, but we really want to build something that can serve millions and kind of onboard web2 users into Web3.Take that plus our decision to be a native app on the App Store of Apple and Google, which has its limitations for Web3. It kind of actually pushed us to a model where if you care about NFTs, if you care about Web3, great. Anything you create on our platform, you can take it. After that, you'll be able to sell it under other marketplaces. We have full ownership of this, but if you don't have a wallet and you don't really care about Web3, you can still come in and really enjoy the platform just as a trading selling kind of game.

11:15

Shahar

The second thing we kind of implemented is the gaming mechanics are not just in order to gamify the economy. It's also in order to have sensible economy rules from day one. If you're a web3 tutor, you have a lot of fans on TikTok, you heard about NFTs, you want to get into NFTs. There's something there that's very interesting for you, but a lot of them just don't really know what to do, how many NFTs they need to create, at what frequency they need to create them, how to distribute them, all this kind of stuff. We really try to build something that you can come and immediately start to mint your stuff. We'll have our own mechanism to actually help you not oversaturate your market, not create too many things right away, how to actually distribute them, all the rarities for different cards you create. All this is kind of built in, and I think this is one of the things that the creators who already on the platform really appreciate and really like.

12:17

Shahar

At the end of the day, we have creators who are totally professional creators. They're artists. They have millions of followers on other social platforms, and we have people who are in college and they just want to create really cool art and distribute it to their friends and get their friends to actually follow and use this. It's still early on. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure who's going to be the end, the big target group, who's going to adopt this. Yeah, we'll see.

12:52

Nadja

Yeah. I think you touch on such an important point because it's difficult at this stage to focus only one user persona because things are shifting so quickly. You have the die-hard Web3 degens, and that's a very specific culture. It's a specific culture that most people, a, will never be part of, and b, that most people wouldn't want to be part of, which is why they are actively not part of it. I felt that the conversations in Web3 have centered so much in this echo chamber of, well, I'm talking to you because what I mean and I know what you mean and no words are necessary. As soon as you move this conversation out of this inner circle and you talk to the average person, it's exceedingly difficult to explain what it is you do without using Web3 lingo. I face this problem every single day with AdLunam.

13:55

Nadja

Even now that I'm writing the book, because I don't necessarily talk to everyone I meet about my work, but when you're writing a book, it very easily comes up in conversation. As soon as someone hears Web3, they start peppering me with questions. I've been finding myself having very foundational one on one conversations with people every single day. It has opened my eyes because we are leapfrogging ahead, light years ahead of where most of the market is, and no one seems to be really having those conversations with people at a scale where it's genuinely creating an educational change. I love the approach that you took. Really, again, I experienced this when I was doing your onboarding because I always checked myself. If I didn't know what I was doing, how would this experience have been for me? And it was really simple and straightforward. I think this is exactly the thing, in my experience, that holds so much user adoption back.

15:02

Nadja

Because, as you say, if you want to go onto the App Store, you aren't going to have all the nifty Web3 features that we've come to love. At the same time, if it's not on the App Store, probably most people are not even going to know that it exists. So, yeah, love the agility with which you are building, like it's being built and it's there and multiple people can come on and use it and make it their own. Who have you been seeing so far? Who is your typical core target user group that's active at the moment?

15:37

Shahar

Yeah, I think it's two main, the two biggest groups we have right now are Web2 influencers people who have, let's say, 10,000 to 20,000 and plus to millions of followers. They wanted to go into Web3. This is a very easy way for them to start trading the water and see what they can do. The second is more, I would say, hobbies traders and especially ones who tend to use AI tools. One of the things that were very lucky was that just a few months after we launched our beta stability diffusion came and then Midjourney and Dall E and the whole generative art movement came up and we decided to really not just hug it but really adopt it very strongly. We have a lot different AI tools. We just released the first ever way to create your own animated avatars and not just like static images and we see a lot of kind again, hobbies creators use these tools to start to create their own art and get distribution to it.

16:57

Shahar

17:57

Nadja

19:07

Nadja

Now because I saw your launch of Personas, the generative AI tool as well. Of course I have to go do it after this call just to see how I will look as AI avatar NFT. This is a trend, I mean, that's really been huge over the last few months. Generative AI in general has been a huge conversation. I am extremely curious to understand in the NFT space, how has generative AI shifted things? Are you seeing that now a lot more people are using AI or is there still a majority that uses their own art or is there a split? I'm very curious to see how you are finding this evolving.

19:52

Shahar

Yeah, I think it's just starting to go into crypto and NFT in general, right? I mean, first of all, it kind of feels like generative AI has been with us forever, but it's probably been just like four, five months. So it's super early. That said, also, I think one of the big problems right now, besides us, there's just maybe one or two platforms that really allow you to go from, put in a prompt, get in a few results, and hence the results to actually be on chain. Again, so most people will go to my journey and create some amazingly beautiful things. They don't have the knowledge right now how to take what they created and go and mint this and make it a full NFT. I think that's the next phase of connecting these two together in a much more adhesive way. I think one of the big advantages Web3 has to offer to the AI world is when everyone has access to the same AI tools.

21:01

Shahar

It also means that everyone can create the same art, means that I can put the same prompt like you. It might not come exactly the same, but we can definitely create very similar things. Which goes to the root question of like, how do I prove that what I created is really what I created? And not just I stole you. I took a screenshot of what you have. And now I'm posting this again. I think this is where web3, obviously, with NFTs can really be a huge advantage, because the moment I create something, I can mint it as an NFT, put it on the chain, and I have a proof that it is something that I actually created in the same process. I think this is how the future of the intersection between Web3 and AI is going to be.

21:47

Nadja

I also want to know if we talk about content creation because one of the revelations that I see on a daily basis is how the definition of content creation is being just transformed. Content creation, community engagement, like these are things that have been with us, I wouldn't say as old as time because probably technology helped quite a bit, but it feels like it's been with us since the beginning of time and over the years we've seen such a shift. I found it so interesting. I'm in Hungary and I saw in Budapest yesterday there's a building from, I don't know, the 50s or the 60s or it's an old communist building with an advertisement on the roof and obviously advertisement is not quite the same as diamonds or a girl's best friend. It really drove home for me this idea that we have been creating content around powerful ideas, whatever those ideas might be for eons and the content very often sticks around in some form.

23:01

Nadja

24:06

Nadja

How does it fit into everyday people's lives? Because the argument that I always get when I talk to newbies and people who don't know too much about what's happening in the industry and don't really understand the technology is the right click save. Why would I want to have something on chain if I mean, I can just save it or I can look at it on the Internet and why would I buy it if it's free? I feel like there's a huge mist around this idea of why should digital collectibles exist in the first place? Could you speak from the perspective of a marketplace? Why is this actually important?

24:47

Shahar

Yeah, I think it's when I try to explain NFTs to people, I really like the Mona Lisa example that we all see in many places, because it is really true, right? Like, there is just one Mona Lisa that's worth 200 million plus, but there's a million other copies of it in every gift store that they don't work. They're worth $10. I think that the problem people have is understanding that physical aspect or physical art is very much like digital art. Digital art can be as valuable as physical art in the same way. I think that's like a mental leap that some people need to do and we as a society start to do it. Like, until NFTs, we haven't seen people paying huge amounts of money for digital art. Now you can actually do it because now people can actually prove that this is the original art.

25:51

Shahar

This is the first thing that I created. Everything else is just copies. Everything else is done. It's just the copies of the monolith are sold in different kind of gift stores, and owning the original always going to be more valuable than owning just some copies. At the same time. We are trying to take the same concept and put them into the social media aspect of the fact that I can fully own the social media that I produce, the user generated content that I produce, instead of just putting videos into TikTok all the time and TikTok actually owns my content. I can put the content into a platform where I have full ownership of this content. I can do whatever I want with this content and I can also decide to sell it because if I'm more famous or if I'm a really good artist, there's some people who are actually willing to pay money for my content.

26:50

Shahar

I think it's very early on and we need to see if this concept actually evolve and take off. But that's kind of our vision. We think that in the end of the day, everyone needs to be able to own their own social media content and be able to monetize it if they want to. By the way, you can also decide, no, I just want to give it for free to everyone. It's really up to you. It's your own business model. It kind of goes back to the fact that we are all, in some ways, we are all a brand. We all have a brand and it's my personal brand and I can decide how I want to monetize it and how I want to use my content. I hope it kind of makes sense.

27:37

Nadja

That is brilliant because I always say the problem that I see in Web3 is people are not used to the idea of being self-sovereign. In the same way, people are not used to the idea of, well, as you said, you create your own business model. You are your own brand. If you are a professional that moves in these spaces like, I have a marketing background. I mean, this is a no brainer to me. If you are not somebody that works in a field where this is pertinent, and if you are not someone who works in a job role where this is relevant, it can be extremely foreign to think of this concept of, well, I'm my own brand. I mean, what if I don't have anything to sell? Clearly I'm not a brand then. Especially the idea that the content you create is not owned by you.

28:30

Nadja

I mean, if I think about how much I've put into social media over the years, and this has been across multiple different platforms, and I've had times where I was very active one platform and then moved to another. The thread that runs between all of them is they are like my digital graveyards. This is where those Mes that have existed in those times and in those spaces, they are encapsulated on these platforms. I don't own the data that's on there, even though it's my data. This, I think, is something that is so important for people to talk about and to understand why this is not healthy. Because if you go to the bookstore, you have books on the shelves about digital detox and social media addiction and really internalizing the problem that's actually quite systemic. If we think about web2 platforms, they have been built in a certain way to get people to stay on there as long as possible, produce as much content as possible without being rewarded for it.

29:36

Nadja

Because we are the product, this free product that we are using, we then end up being the product. I think the conversation now is shifting so dramatically and especially with platforms such as yours where it's really emphasized that as you say, you have a business model that you own that you can have control over, that you have creative license to shape in different ways and forms. People onboard onto the platform, what are some of the biggest difficulties that you see them having? Because I know you said earlier that you really support new users to shape the way that they use the platform. What are some of the commonalities you see in terms of areas where people are still having difficulty understanding the shift in consciousness, so to speak?

30:31

Shahar

Yeah, I think it's exactly the stuff we’re just talking about, right? I think that if you're more of a creative person that you already create content in other platforms, you get it pretty quickly and you get the benefits pretty quickly. If you're just someone who mostly consume media and now you come into a platform that asks you to also become a creator and own your creation, I think we see that people are not sure why how to do it. Plus, I got to admit, I mean thank you for saying that our onboarding is very easy and great, but I think we definitely still have some places to improve it. I think our gaming mechanics make this very exciting but there is some learning curve to learn. What are the gravities of the different cards? We have a concept of staking and creating seriousness and a lot of other kind of more advanced jokers and the other things and we kind of still need to figure out how to teach people all these kind of game rules in a much easier way.

31:44

Shahar

Yeah, I think look, but in the end of the day also I think sometimes in a web3 world, we also think that we try to educate everyone that yes, everyone has to own their stuff and everyone has to really care about it. Honestly, not everyone has to really care about it. Some people just don't care. They use TikTok for fun. They will never try to sell this. They don't really care about, like you said, having a brand. They just won't talk to their friends. That's totally fine. I think if you can get ownership for free, perfect. Maybe tomorrow you will care about this. Maybe tomorrow you will want to do something with your assets. Yeah, the majority of people are never going to really care about this and we need to understand this and we. Just need to give them a really fun experience and something that still gives them some value.

32:36

Nadja

Yeah, I think you touch on something that's so incredibly important and it just reminded me a couple of years ago, when I was still using Facebook like the rest of us, far more actively, I was having a conversation. With a couple of people who had their post settings to public, and they would share things that I would never share because I'm very concerned with privacy. I remember those conversations going, well, I mean, who's looking at my content? I really don't care if it's public. It's such an important point, generally speaking, to understand that everyone comes at something from different entry points for different reasons. There's no homogeneous overarching reason for someone's presence or involvement or non-involvement. As the marketplace, you cater to so many different types of people with different prerogatives. As you say, an existing creator has a far easier onboarding journey because they already get it compared to someone who is looking for options and maybe don't know the pain points with existing options.

33:48

Nadja

Therefore, all of these new selling points are not as hot and as sexy as they could be. In terms of your user, let's start with a bit of demographics. Do you have any insight on ages and maybe geographies of most of the users on the platform? Are you focusing on specific geographies and age group?

34:12

Shahar

Yeah, I mean, look, as a US based startup, the US market is definitely our primary one. That said, our user base right now comes from about 100 plus different countries. It's older than you would expect. I got admitted when we started this kind of high school and college were markets, we really fought very intensely about. We see that the average age is probably 25 plus and not younger yet. That could be also just from the kind of influencers who came to our platform, the kind of people who follow them, the fact that we didn't put enough marketing budget into colleges and schools right now. But yeah, it's definitely very international. We see a lot of users coming from places like India, Indonesia, Turkey, Hong Kong, these kind of countries for sure, which also, by the way, made us I think that's one of the problems as a developer.

35:23

Shahar

When you live in the US. You think of iPhone first all the time and you put a lot of efforts on the iPhone and then you launch and suddenly you realize that 75% of your user base actually have Androids. We really had to kind of shift our mind and started putting a lot more focus on Android devices, which is just harder, unfortunately.

35:47

Nadja

Yeah, it's interesting because we see with that at AdLunam as well, the great just variety of people that come onto the platform. You have these rankings and lists of where things are the most active in which geographies but truly, when you get down to it, I feel like people everywhere are really quite interested to see what's going to happen, how to get there. People are also quite hesitant because so much of it is really difficult to understand. You said that a lot of the users are 25 and up. What do you think is leading to I almost want to use the word revolution because I remember when I was 25, for sure I was not focusing on this didn't exist, but that wasn't part of my frame of reference. What do you think is leading to this shift, maybe, or change or natural evolution that adults are starting to get back into things that very often it's great when you're a child and you're creative and you're pursuing just curiosity and imagination and it's incredible.

37:05

Nadja

As all of us adults know, it's difficult to attain this because work and parenting and friends and marriage and whatever it is, but it's difficult to hold on to it. Do you think that something is causing the change? Is it because platforms now exist?

37:23

Shahar

I think it's less about the platforms. I think personally, it is the creator economy. There are two things, two big waves here. One is the fact that everyone is reading about their neighbor starting a TikTok account and suddenly making a lot of money or selling something online or creating a dance movement or et cetera. These stories just are in the news and the media all the time, which means that a lot more people want to become creators. A lot more people started to think about, maybe I can do the same, maybe it's not going to be changed by profession, but maybe I can get another extra $1,000 a month from doing something. We definitely see a lot of movement of people who start to experiment and explore this kind of lifestyle. Add to that, of course, everything that happened after COVID. The fact that people want to have revenue streams that they can do from anywhere around the world, where they can travel more, where they don't need to go to an office.

38:32

Shahar

I think that's definitely a big wave that kind of pushes this industry more forward. And then it is AI. I mean, I remember the first time I used Mid Journey and I put this prompt and I got this crazy, amazing art and I was like, oh my God, this is just so cool. It is bringing you to be a kid again because it's just magic. I think a lot more people right now are trying to become their own artists or play with this because it just feels like magic. As this technology gets better and better, I think it will just fascinate more and more people, adults or young.

39:21

Nadja

I love this conversation because I see how and I have spoken to people who were so suppressed creatively. Especially if you are not someone who followed the trajectory of becoming an artist and you went into a different field and your artistic abilities and your creativities were really suppressed. Because it's simply a fact that it's the society that we live in where if you're a scientist and a mathematician and a tech person, you're going to go higher than if you focus on arts and the social sciences. That's just how things have been up until now. Suddenly we have people who are really, for a lot of people, for the first time as adults, or for some even for the first time in their lives, they are truly starting to tune in on their own terms to their artistic abilities and interest, even before you get to the abilities.

40:24

Nadja

I feel like Web3 has really made people interested in art again. I mean, it's not the highbrow art where you have to get an invite to the gallery where the exhibition is opening. It's something that is truly available to everyone. It is an incredibly exciting time in which to operate. What do you think are some of the challenges that is being faced by the Web3 art space that is perhaps going to take more time and will not be so easy to fix and mitigate?

40:59

Shahar

Yeah, I mean, I think probably anyone in the Web3 world has been engaged in some way in the whole royalties discussion that we all have been having in the last few weeks. Personally, I'm very sad to see what's going on with the marketplaces and the fact that royalties are going down to basically zero. I think that this was one of the biggest thing for NFTs. It's actually one of the reasons that I got into NFT was the fact that this notion that you can create one thing and it can keep generating for you some revenue basically forever, that was the magic that enabled so many new business models. If we're going to take this away out of NFTs, we stay with ownership, which is important, but we kind of kill again the other leg that build this industry and made this such a phenomena.

42:05

Shahar

Personally, I think it's something that I kind of work on it a bit, but I think just the NFT standards have to change and we have to build a new NFT standard, like not ERC 721 and the next one, which will actually hold marketplace capabilities inside the contract. You can actually force royalties on the contract level for your NFT. That's the future, if you ask me. Personally, I think we have to get there, otherwise we're just killing ourselves. Like, we're really killing a lot of the magic in the industry.

42:53

Nadja

Yeah, that's a very interesting point that you raised because I think I 100% agree with you. It's pretty much tragic that these conversations started coming up and has been met with a certain resistance against the idea of royalties because yeah, exactly. This is what makes this different from what we had before, it is, again, democratizing and really enabling and empowering people. Maybe one of my final questions. As I said in the beginning, we saw the same as a Launchpad when the market started shifting and we really have had to keep on pivoting to make sure that we remain relevant in a rapidly changing space. So, as an NFT marketplace, considering what you just said about standards possibly needing to change, is this something that you see yourselves as being at the pioneering front of? This something that you feel that as a company, you would like to contribute to shifting and evolving?

44:06

Shahar

Yeah, absolutely. So, as I said, first of all, in our marketplace, royalties are preserved. We believe in them. As long as you sell stuff inside our marketplace, the cradles will always get royalties. Unfortunately, right now, with the current ERC standards, if you take the NFT you created or someone bought on our platform and you take it and sell it on Opensea or Blur and other places, right now, we can't enforce royalties. It's just technically impossible. Personally, we are working on a different kind of contract which will actually enforce this. At the same time, it's not going to help if we be the ones who support it. And that's it. It's something that basically all creators or big creators will have to try to support it. I think that if enough big creators will demand this and support it, the big marketplaces won't have a choice because at the end of the day, content wins.

45:15

Shahar

We see. With Blair, for example, right now, it's a bit of phenomenon, but they basically drive users to use them. They give free money for users who are going to come and use them. Long term, this can be a sustainable business model. Long term, the places who will have the best content are going to be the ones who are going to win. Which means that creators do have power. They just need to kind of gather together and enforce it.

45:46

Nadja

46:32

Shahar

I think we're going to really see the shift from PFP projects and art, which I think is going to decrease, partially because of royalties, partially because it's just not as hot as it used to be. We're going to see the shift to NFT as technology to enable different kind of business models behind stuff that will look like Web2. We'll see a lot of other bigger brands like Nike and others start to come out with products that has NFT in the back end, even if they don't even name that there's NFT in the back end. It's just going to be the technology enablement for the product. In the end of the day, I think it's great for all of us because if people will start to own NFTs, even if they don't really know that you own NFTs, it will still allow them to get exposure for this market and potentially start to read about it more.

47:36

Shahar

48:14

Nadja

49:11

Nadja

At the same time, I think that the underlying sober approach that we are learning to have with this technology is going to reap rewards. Yeah. Shahar, thank you so much for an incredibly just rich conversation in terms of Revel and where people are able to reach you and how to get started. I suppose your website would be place to start. Let me just see. I know you are also on Twitter and on Discord. Where would be if people want to become a more active part of the community and maybe connect with other creators and with other collectors, where would be some of the best platforms for them to go to connect with the other members of the audience.

50:05

Shahar

Yeah, I would say discord. Obviously we have a pretty active Discord community and then actually on the app itself, we have a full chat so you can actually talk to other creators, comment on your stuff, et cetera. We see thousands of conversation happen there every single day.

50:26

Nadja

Brilliant. Any closing words before we go? Words of wisdom? Wisdom gained over your many years in business and now this newfound journey in Web3 and NFTs. Yeah, what do you want to leave us with today?

50:43

Shahar

Yeah, I want to say I think that first of all, if you're into NFT, I think try to not be depressed from all the PR, especially the more general crypto finance stuff that's going on.FPX, Silvergate understand that NFTs can be very distinct from Web3 or from crypto. Crypto can go down and the prices can go down, but NFTs technology enablement can flourish. Like you said, it's all cycle. As much as it can be tough and sometimes depressing, this is the best time to build. Good times will come.

51:38

Nadja

Yeah, as the Kevin Costner movie says, build it and they will come. That certainly is what we have been doing. I think the best sense of solidarity that one gets working in this industry is always during a market like this, when everyone who was only here for profits, they've moved on to something else for the time being. The rest of us that remain standing. We are here because we have a vision and we can see where we are coming from. We can see where we are going or would like to go. We are taking the steps in building to get there. For that reason, very happy to have spoken to you today. Think what you guys are building, especially when it comes to really focusing and prioritizing the creators, because that's always the problem with any platform that originally gives a lot of opportunity, but at some point becomes more platform focused and user focused.

52:40

Nadja

I think in this space, in the Web3 space, we really have an opportunity to do things differently. It's always sad when it's not taken. It's always very heartening to see companies who really stand up for these beliefs that the reason that they are in the space is because this is a better way of really just enabling collaboration between different people. Who better to foster collaboration between than creators and people who want, who choose, who actively choose to consume the content that is being created? Now it's been a lovely privilege and an honor to hear about Revel and about you. I look forward to what is to come. Very excited to see how you guys are going to pivot from one stage of the business and the industry to the next. We will be on the sidelines cheering and watching very closely, because I think it sounds like you have your head in the game in a way that a lot of creators will be able to relate to.

53:47

Nadja

Ultimately, that is who we are serving. We are serving these masses of people that really are trying to use new technologies to recreate or create for the first time things in a way that serves them and not only the platforms that they are using. So, yeah, it's been absolutely amazing. Shahar, thank you so much. I didn't ask earlier, where are you based? You said you're in the US.

54:15

Shahar

I was in the US. I actually moved out during the pandemic and now trying to find my new base, to be honest, working remotely, mostly. I spend a lot of time in Tel Aviv, but still trying to figure out where I want to make a stay, yeah.

54:35

Nadja

I have exactly the same problem. Every time I go to a country I haven't been, it feels like, okay, so I could cross this off my list. This is not the place I'll be. The list of options and possibilities are getting shorter, but it's still very difficult to settle on. Okay, this is the destination where I'm supposed to be, but I mean, Tel Aviv, I know there's a lot happening in the startup space, so it's definitely not the worst place if you are going to temporarily base yourselves.

55:07

Shahar

Yeah, I can definitely send you some recommendation for other places as well.

55:18

Nadja

Maybe your recommendations can shorten my list even more, so the shortlisted candidates can start showing up. It was lovely to connect. I'll see you around. Cheers.

55:31

Shahar

Thank you. Cheers.