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Cool Lore But Rushed Storylines for The Rings of Power Season 2 Episode 4
Episode 37 • 21st September 2024 • The White City • Philip Dudt
00:00:00 00:43:17

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Cool scenes are rushed and too much time is given to cheesy plotlines. In this episode, Philip and Mark discuss the lore on screen for the first time, along with the moments that were great and the moments that need improvement.

#theringsofpower #lotr #lordoftherings #tolkien #tombombadil #ents #entwife #amazonprimevideo #lore #rushed #rop

00:00 Overview

01:07 Introduction

02:18 Elves and the Barrow-wights

04:29 Barrow-wights Timeline and Geography Inaccuracy

07:42 Brief Moments/References with the Lore/Movies

10:57 Worldview and Amazon's Vision

15:09 Harfoots, Stanger, and Tom Bombadil

19:15 Tom Bombadil Lacks Random Jolly

24:37 Tom's Ideal Life

26:49 Ents, Worm, and Cheesy Love

30:43 Arondir: Standout Elven Actor

32:48 An Entwife

37:29 Final Thoughts

42:40 Conclusion

Research Links:

Transcripts

Philip:

For the first time we have Barrow-wights, Tom Bombadil,

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and an entwife on screen.

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But Amazon gave these parts very

little time in The Rings of Power

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season two, episode four, and instead

gave more time to maybe cheesy

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parts, or parts that people wouldn't

have looked forward to as much.

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Unfortunately, also the barrow-wights

probably aren't going to show up in

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another episode of The Rings of Power.

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At least it doesn't seem that way.

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So why doesn't Amazon give

more time to these things?

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Who knows?

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That's probably a big fault for Amazon,

is not being able to put more time,

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or just for some reason, not wanting

to put more time, towards these unique

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parts that people would find really

cool and instead focus more on parts

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that wouldn't be as interesting.

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We'll discuss these scenes along

with the lore differences and vision

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differences between Amazon and

Tolkien, especially regarding Tom

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Bombadil Alright, let's dive right in.

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Philip Intro: Welcome, my lords, to

the White City, where you will learn

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more about Middle-earth and discover

differences and similarities between

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The Rings of Power show and Tolkien's

books, and whether Amazon's show,

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episode by episode, is worth watching.

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I'm Philip Dudt your host, and I'll

be joined by Matt Vandevort and

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Mark Schaeffer I hope you enjoy.

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Philip: Hello everyone and thanks for

tuning in to the White City Podcast.

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I'm here with my co host Mark and

we're going to be talking about the

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Rings of Power season two episode four.

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So we'll be talking about just each

each storyline that's in this episode

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along with the lore accuracies and, you

know, some worldview comparisons too,

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of the books and, Tolkien's vision.

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Yeah, So like with that, we've got, we've

got three different storylines here.

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We've got the Harfoots, we have the

elves, and we have the storyline

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with Arondir, Theo, and Isildur.

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Those are, those are those

are the three we got.

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So, start off with the elves and with,

Basically, we got Elrond and Galadriel

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here going to Eregion to see Celebrimbor,

and I guess basically they have the sneaky

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suspicion that Sauron might be there.

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Mark, do you remember how,

like, they remember or think

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that Sauron might be there?

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Mark: So I don't remember specifically,

they find a lot of the stuff happens

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to them and, they like run across the

bridge first, that's like burnt out.

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Again, we see the evil serendipity like,

oh, did a lightning bolt magically happen?

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Is Sauron somehow manipulating

everything in the back of the mind.

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But then they choose to go south,

despite Galadriel's vision through

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the ring, and then they run into

the Barrow Downs and run across The

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Barrow-wights, and there they find

out that the messengers of, like, sent

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to warn Celebrimbor are dead, right?

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And we have this very short scene with

the Barrow-wights and The Barrow Downs,

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and they move on from there after some

guy dies, and they run into the orcs with,

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like, Annatar, sorry, not Annatar, Adar,

who are coming up, to attack Eregion.

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And then Galadriel stays

behind, gives Elrond her ring,

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and then, like, leaves town.

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So what were your thoughts on this,

like, sort of storyline, Phil, and

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do you see any differences between

way this sort of storyline is

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portrayed and the lore of Tolkien?

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Philip: Yeah, so the one thing I was

trying to figure out precisely is when

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they come to The Barrow Downs, where

that was located, in, in the lore.

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Because I know when the, when the

Hobbits come across it, with, I guess

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Aragorn is with them in the books,

and, anyways, when they come across

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The Barrow Downs, I'm pretty sure

that they're, like, not very far from,

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like, Tom Bombadil, to my recollection.

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Mark: Yeah!

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Philip: And that's up, and that's up,

like, north, kind of in between, like, The

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Shire and, would it be Rivendell up there?

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So it seemed like they were in a

different location than, it would

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have been placed in the books, but.

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Mark: So it's definitely like a map,

geographical, geographical inaccuracy.

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It's also a timeline inaccuracy, because

the Barrow-wights are from, like, the

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Witch King, and you remember the Witch

King has, stabs Frodo with a Morgul

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blade that turns him into a wraith?

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Well, there are wraiths that have

been turned by the Witch King

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from whenever he lived up north.

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And so, obviously there are no

Witch King or any of the Nine yet,

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because they have not been given

their rings yet, and we might even

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have seen characters in the show.

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But these are a little early on.

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So while there's like this timeline

and geographical inaccuracy, was there

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anything about their like portrayal

specifically that, you were like, Oh,

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I think this is different.

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Philip: Well, I think one thing is, is

that they've, so at least for the show,

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they've flopped, like, Galadriel being

the commander essentially, and, and a

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bit to like Elrond being the commander.

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And what's interesting too is that

it almost seems like that would be

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more lore accurate that Elrond would

be the one leading like an army

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or soldiers than, than Galadriel.

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Especially if you're getting towards

like, you know, the end of like

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the second age or the third age.

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But that's I mean, that's another

thing just cause I remember, like,

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I mean, I guess Galadriel is still

called Commander, by the High

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King, by Gil-Galad, in the show.

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But, I guess, like, other than that,

like, you've got the, you've got the ring.

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This is interesting, is that, they

get, they run into the orcs, right?

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And so they kind of have to

fight off the orcs and get away.

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And then, Galadriel gives her ring to

Elrond, which is something in my opinion

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is like, I'm thinking, like, really?

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come on now.

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Like, I, I, I, because, another

thing with thinking about it is

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just being more lore accurate.

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Like, wouldn't the ring

make her more powerful?

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In a real sense, and that, like, I don't

know, it just didn't make any sense to

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me why she had to stay behind, I guess.

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But, I mean, she's holding them

off, like, alright, like, sure, you

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know, I mean, they're on foot, so

it's not like they're riding horses.

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It's just, yeah, just the handing off

of the ring, Well I mean, I get it,

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like, she's trying, she doesn't want

the ring to be taken by the enemy.

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But yeah, I guess it's, it's, it's

interesting, like, storyline, at

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least writing the story that way, but,

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Mark: Yeah, I think we're like seeing

alot of the the themes that we've

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touched on before coming back up again.

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I was gonna say the Barrow-wights

that I really actually thought

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their portrayal was pretty good.

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Like that, like, Oh, they're like

creepy and like in the, in the

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books, they're like terrifying.

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Right.

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I wasn't really as bothered

by the geographical and this,

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like, timeline inaccuracy.

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I will say that, like, this episode in

general, and we'll touch on this in the

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other storylines as well, it just had,

like, a lot of one off references to,

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like, characters in the lore, right?

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We'll get to these later, but,

like, there was Tom Bombadil.

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And then there was like the Ents

showing up randomly and it's

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like the Barrow-wights, right?

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It was like these like, but all

of them were really brief and like

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they could have spent a lot of time

with the Barrow-wights and like

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drew, drawn out the seen a lot more.

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Instead it was like this like cameo

appearance rather than like any

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sort of meaningful interaction and

then you're right we would go on

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to the Adar and the Orcs and that

scene also was very strange to me

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where like, and this is the big problem

I have found with the show is like,

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it doesn't have enough magic in it.

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So what the rings do is they enhance

the person's natural abilities, right?

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Like, elves have this natural magic

power that will help preserve their

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realms, and that's what the ring does.

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But because they haven't really

portrayed this in the show, right,

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what they're doing is they're having

the ring do magic tricks, right?

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It just randomly heals this guy, and

you're like, Oh wow, if only they had

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rings later on to help them out, like,

to help heal people, like, Elrond

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has a ring when Frodo gets injured

in The Fellowship of the Ring, right?

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Why doesn't he just

magically heal him, right?

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Like, if these magic rings

could, I don't know, right?

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It's just like, all these lore

inaccuracies are just, like, popping up

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because of this one simple scene of, like,

a guy getting healed from arrow injury.

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But yeah, it's like this idea that, like,

there isn't enough magic in the show and

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therefore they're, like, running into

problems of, like, The ring is going to be

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like, like the Nenya, the ring of water is

going to be just like this magic trinket.

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That scene was also very

interesting in many ways, I think.

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And I will, I was going to

touch on like the interaction

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between Elrond and Galadriel.

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I think that actually is working

right now, and in, in the lore, like

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Galadriel actually leads an army to Dol

Guldur with Elrond at the end of the

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third age, while the rest of them are

fighting at like the Pelennor Fields.

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So Galadriel does lead armies.

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She does go out to battle and stuff.

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Obviously, again, we've said this

before, but she's not really the

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martial artist kind of fighty

person that you see in the show.

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She's more of a magical high lady.

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Yeah.

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And so that, that is like

a little lore inaccurate.

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But I sort of, I guess I wasn't like

too like, oh yeah, she's like going

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off to like save the rest of them.

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I also don't understand why they

all couldn't have run together.

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That was not super clear to me either.

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I felt like, repeatedly in the show,

they've tried to evoke moments from

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the original Lord of the Rings.

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And obviously

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there was like a scene right where

like Aragorn steps out to let Frodo

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escape and he goes up against all these

Uruk-hai, it's like this super epic scene.

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And I feel like they were like,

oh, we're just gonna do that

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scene with like Galadriel.

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I'm like, we're gonna do

switch up a couple things.

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Where like arrows, we're

gonna make it at night.

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But it's just the same scene, right?

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Like it's

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Philip: that's, yeah,

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Mark: And that's like repeatedly

they've done that, right?

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They've tried to evoke other scenes

from like The Lord of the Rings.

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And like sort of have them come over

and I'm just like, you know, I think

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it'd be fun if you made your own shows

and movies, rather than just like

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trying to like recreate nostalgia.

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Right.

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And it wasn't as epic as Aragorn's moment.

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So,

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Philip: no it wasn't, that's true, but

it is the same thing for me, that is

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exactly, exactly what I thought about

whenever, uh, whenever that scene came up

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with Galadriel, yeah, with Aragorn, yeah,

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Mark: but what does this say about

like their difference between Tolkien's

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lore and this, like the worldview of

the people who are making this show.

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This difference that we've seen

in like the magic, And also their

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desire to, like, recreate the past.

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I don't know if you

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have any thoughts on that.

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Philip: Hmm.

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Well, I think that, it's not necessarily

like to start off necessarily a worldview

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thing, but yeah, they're obviously,

they're obviously like trying to piggyback

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off of like the, the other movies

to kind of somehow like get the same

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feeling in these ones and then they're

losing any kind of, I think what you're

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talking about too, any kind of like,

um, just coming up with a new idea.

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They're losing, like, the, that sense of,

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Mark: Originality.

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Philip: Originality.

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Yeah, there you go.

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So because of, because of that,

again, there's necessarily like,

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worldview related, but I think going

off of that, they then tend to write

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something for their own purposes, as

opposed to writing something that's

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just going to like go with the lore,

for instance, you know what I mean?

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Like, hey, like, I, I mean, people

say, well, they don't really

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have much to go off of, you know,

they're kind of restricted by, the

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Tolkien estate and all this stuff.

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And I mean, well, you know,

some of that stuff may be true.

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I think that was still like they

could probably be following the

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timeline better and, you know,

going through things like that.

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So, again, I guess that's not, that's

not necessarily worldview, like ya

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know, comparing with like Tolkien,

like for instance, like Tolkien's

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worldview compared to Amazon's.

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But, I mean, I think in some ways

like Amazon has stuck to the lore,

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but they're also trying to make things

very much appealing to people today.

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And you can kind of see that too,

like more so it's not, not so much

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in the show itself, but like the way

they're advertising the show to people.

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Like if you saw like different

advertisements they had, like

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I saw one on like Instagram,

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there was also just like a video of them

talking at the Comic Con, and it was kind

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of very much the way they were talking

and trying to like get people, you know,

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Get people hooked was very much like

a, just kind of a pitch for like, what

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would get people kind of excited or like

interested in any kind of movie today,

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like something like steamy romance,

kind of a thing between Galadriel and

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Halbrand, and it's like in the show,

there's like nothing actually, except

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for like one scene in the first season.

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So it's just like, I don't know, some

interesting things like that, I guess.

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.

Mark: Yeah.

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I was gonna say that there's this really,

like, weird mix where it feels like they

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have these moments where they try to evoke

the original Lord of the Rings movies.

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So there's this, this

has been constant, right?

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Whenever I said in the first season,

like whenever Halbrand goes in to save

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Galadriel, it's like the Frodo going in

to save Sam after Sam falls in the water

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after he tries to chase him out Amon Hen.

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But like, this moment we had in this

like episode was the moment Galadriel's

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like trying to evoke that moment where

Aragorn stays behind to help Frodo escape.

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But they're also a bunch of these

like really common tropes in modern

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day TV that they're also bringing in.

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And we saw a bunch of those in the

other plot lines that we'll get to,

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but like the quick like steamy like,

Oh, I like checking you out between

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like the two hobbits or whatever.

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That was like, so generic.

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I felt like I was watching some

sort of like rom com or something

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on like some generic TV show.

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Or like the, Oh, I'm going to stick in a

stick to save the person in the quicksand.

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It's like, that's like not Tolkien.

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And I don't know, like, yeah, what I found

about, like, so refresh my, the Lord of

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the Rings movies, not to mention like The

Lord of the Rings books are exactly this

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way, but it's like, refreshingly original.

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Like it's these epic ideas, but

they're not like cheap, potline tricks.

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Right.

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And I think this, this episode

really struggled for me.

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Cause it was like a lot of these like

quick, quick cuts or quick scenes and

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that like, we just moved on really

quickly from one thing to another, like

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one trope or like reference to another.

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And that I thought was like, maybe

what rings of power is at its worst,

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where it's just like cheap nostalgia

bait, rather than like, if like in

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the previous episodes, we actually, I

was like, wow, these are like really

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cool, we get to see Annatar and other

cool moments, but, should we move

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on to one of the other plot lines?

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Philip: Yeah, let's, uh,

talk next about the Harfoots.

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Mark: AHHH!, Got it!

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So, the Harfoots: the Stranger, runs into

Tom Bombadil, and there's some scenes

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there that we'll talk about, I'm sure, and

I have a lot of thoughts on Tom Bombadil,

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his first live action appearance.

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And then, Nori and the other

Hobbit whose name escapes me,

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Philip: Poppy

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Mark: Poppy.

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Nori Poppy run into like a, hobbit from

this, like region of the world who are

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living in holes in the, under the ground.

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And then there's like some lore

implications of them meeting these

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hobbits and apparently Nori's tribe

started off to like go find a place

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where they could all live safely.

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And yeah, it seems like they might be

setting up as like the hobbits finding

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the shire in the end, is going to

be like the last thing, and leading

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all the hobbits there from all over.

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yeah.

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thoughts on this one, Phil?

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Philip: Yeah, there's one thing they

were talking about, because they..

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So Sadoc Burrows was their leader back

with the Harfoots, and, they were just

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talking about how, there was another

guy, Burrows, who was with these people.

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And I guess he had traveled up north

trying to find another place for them

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to live, but these, halflings were still

in the desert, when he got up there.

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So I guess they were like, they

knew that like there was a lusher

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ground for them to live on, but,

they hadn't, hadn't found it yet.

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And it's also interesting too, is

like they make them very primitive,

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and you think of just the hobbits,

you know, they're very, you know,

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in hobbiton are, are very, you

know, like Englishmen like, they're,

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they

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Mark: Rural English countryside.,

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yeah.

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Philip: Right.

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They like their teas, and their

dainty, you know, things, and their

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pipes, and that kind of thing,

so they're very, like, proper.

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But of course, like I get like they

could they maybe they needed to

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get to that point, but still it's

it's it's still a gap from where

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Mark: so we'll talk Really quick

about the lore behind the hobbits.

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is that there were different heart

hobbit groups, and therefore that's

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like accurate to the lore that like

different of them settled in different

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regions and there were different

subcultures within these regions.

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If you think about Smeagol, he is from

a different hobbit group than The Shire

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was and The Shire eventually becomes

the nexus of all the hobbits and so like

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all of them sort of mash into one group.

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So there is like, I think, a cool sort

of lore aspect, that like, yeah, it's not

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weird to run into hobbits in a different

part of Middle earth at this time.

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I think my problems with this, this,

scene or this like, the hobbit storyline.

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Well, one continues to be

that it's like kind of boring.

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And two, that it's like, oh, we

have to explain everything and make

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everything about the original series

be something meaningful and impactful.

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So like, it's like, Hey, the discovery of

The Shire is going to be this big deal.

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And it's going to be like this big thing.

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And it's going to be like the whole

show is pointing to here and like,

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wow, doesn't this like, so cool that

they discovered The Shire and it's

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like, that's not that cool to me.

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Like I could have lived a long time,

but never read a book about how

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they discovered the Shire, right?

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Like, and I think that that's like, Oh,

we don't need to explain everything of

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the old show and that's not valuable or

cool to explain something of the old show.

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Yeah, and this kind of touches on

the other part of the storyline,

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which is like, the wizard going

to see Tom Bombadil, but it seems

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very clear that they're setting up

the wizard's name to be Gandalf.

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Like, in the, in the, whenever she's

talking to the stranger, she's like, oh,

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he's like a, a great wizard or something,

and like, they're clearly like, seem to

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be like, throwing out words for his name

that are closer and closer to Gandalf.

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And like, it's going to be this

big reveal that like his name is

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Gandalf and it's like, I don't care.

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I could have lived a long time without

knowing how Gandalf got his name, right?

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Like that's not what makes a show valuable

is showing, like explaining every little

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detail of the old, of something else.

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but yeah,

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Philip: Mhm

332

:

Mark: so that's my issue

with this storyline.

333

:

And other issue is Tom Bombadil.

334

:

So, my issue with Tom Bombadil

is not nearly jolly enough,

335

:

and his boots are not yellow.

336

:

And I cannot stress how much

his boots needed to be yellow.

337

:

But no, I think, in all seriousness,

like, Tom Bombadil, like, he

338

:

is such a strange character.

339

:

Like, read, go back and read

The Fellowship of the Ring.

340

:

You're like, he does not

belong in this story.

341

:

And like, he is so strange and different.

342

:

And I did not get that vibe

at all in this episode.

343

:

Like it was like, Oh, here's a

wizard, who's like, sort of like

344

:

chilling in the middle of thing.

345

:

And yeah.

346

:

And again, it's like middle earth

is like a place full of magic.

347

:

So Tom Bombadil isn't

strange because he's magical.

348

:

He's strange because he's strange.

349

:

Right?

350

:

Like he's just so out there and

he's like singing all the time.

351

:

I don't know.

352

:

It was, a very big, like, letdown in terms

of, like, this does not feel like the

353

:

Tom Bombadil I read in my book at all.

354

:

Philip: Yeah

355

:

Mark: What are your thoughts, Phil?

356

:

Philip: It's interesting how I think

It might have been in our review of

357

:

the official trailer that we talked

about how Tom Yeah, Tom Bombadil didn't

358

:

really I mean, yeah, so doesn't really,

nothing's really affected by him.

359

:

It's not really any like role

that he plays in the story.

360

:

He's just there that the hobbits

passed by, you know, this guy.

361

:

Mark: And he, and he helps the Hobbits,

but he doesn't, like, give them big,

362

:

wise words or anything.

363

:

Like, he plays very little role in,

like, the rest of their journey.

364

:

And it seems like in this episode,

in the show, he'll play a very

365

:

big role in Gandalf's journey.

366

:

Philip: Yeah, with that, it seemed a

little bit odd for him to be talking about

367

:

how he was like, there at the beginning,

of like, almost like the creation of

368

:

everything, almost as though they're

like taking away from like, Iluvatar

369

:

as being like, in the beginning, more

or less, but that was just kind of like

370

:

my sense of it, and yeah, so for him,

for him to be given like, .Like what,

371

:

I guess what really did get me is that

they're treating him like a wizard,

372

:

and I'm like, but he's not a wizard.

373

:

Like he's a, he's not an

Istari, he's not a wizard.

374

:

I mean, does he know magic?

375

:

And is he very magical?

376

:

Like, yes.

377

:

But, yeah.

378

:

Like, that's, about it.

379

:

I don't know.

380

:

Mark: Yeah, so as like a lore check,

the lines they had Tom Bombadil say,

381

:

actually pretty much every single line

they had Tom Bombadil say was a direct

382

:

quote from The Fellowship of the Ring.

383

:

So he does say he's the oldest and

he was there before anything else.

384

:

So the theory behind Tom Bombadil,

if you're like going for an in world

385

:

theory, some people say it's like

Tolkien inserting himself into the story.

386

:

But the in world theory is that

Tom Bombadil is actually a Maiar.

387

:

So he actually is sort of similar to a

wizard in that respect, but he was the

388

:

first person to come to Middle -earth.

389

:

So Illuvatar created Middle earth and

like Tom Bombadil was like there, right?

390

:

And so before anything else, before

like the Valar shaped the world, Tom

391

:

Bombadil was already in the world.

392

:

And he never left.

393

:

So that idea that he calls himself

the eldest is like lore accurate,

394

:

that like he probably was there.

395

:

It is a little bit of a, like a weird

flex, because if this character,

396

:

cause the character is an Istar,

they're like also as old, like, cause

397

:

they were all created by Illuvatar.

398

:

So it's like, well, Tom Bombadil

might've got there faster,

399

:

it's not like this is like this

big deal of like Tom Bombadil's

400

:

like, wow, he's so old.

401

:

Right.

402

:

Like it was, it was a

big deal to the hobbits.

403

:

Cause they were like, you

know, a hundred years old.

404

:

Gandalf, if this character, if

the stranger is Gandalf would be

405

:

obviously just as old as Bombadil.

406

:

Philip: Ok, interesting.

407

:

Mark: My, my issue with it was more

like the qualitative aspect of like.

408

:

It doesn't feel like I'm seeing

Tom Bombadil from the books.

409

:

Philip: Yeah, I got that.

410

:

Yeah, they did.

411

:

I mean, they tried to put in

some, some like songs that he was

412

:

kind of mumbling and what not.

413

:

I thought it was interesting too.

414

:

Mark: But okay, the

415

:

songs and jolliness were like at a one,

they need to like dial it up to 11, right?

416

:

Like he's just such a strange character.

417

:

He doesn't like belong in the story.

418

:

Like, you're not like, Oh, this kind of

guy is like kind of like a weird thing.

419

:

You're like, wow, this guy is

like kind of probably nuts.

420

:

I don't know.

421

:

Right.

422

:

That's like, that's how he

feels in the Lord of the Rings.

423

:

He feels like he's crazy, except he's not.

424

:

And I think there's like this.

425

:

There's a really deep part of,

like, Lord of the Rings where, like,

426

:

everybody around him is, like, like,

Oh, everything's gonna end, and Tom

427

:

Bombadil, like, just doesn't care, right?

428

:

Like, he's, like, the ultimate,

like, doesn't, doesn't give a crap.

429

:

I think there's actually something,

like, deep about that, like, when

430

:

it says something about his, like,

power, that he's not worried, and,

431

:

like, in the show, right, at the

end, he's, like, oh, we're not alone,

432

:

that the Dark Wizard is showing up.

433

:

Like, Tom Bombadil would not care if,

like, Sauron knocked on his door, right?

434

:

Like, he just wouldn't care.

435

:

and like, yeah, that was like, just in

general was, I thought a little bit, they

436

:

should have done a better job with him.

437

:

Philip: Well, the other thing too that

got me was thinking about location again.

438

:

And I'm like, the only time he shows

up is You know, out, out by, uh, by

439

:

where the, like the hobbits ran into the

440

:

Mark: So, not the right location at all.

441

:

Though, the idea, I guess, that

Tom Bombadil moved around a lot

442

:

is like, not that strange to me.

443

:

I also, like, I would have

liked to see, like, Goldberry.

444

:

Because, like, when Tom Bombadil, like.

445

:

So to explain, like, Tom Bombadil a little

bit more, actually, I think it's helpful

446

:

to, like, go through the, the patterns

of The Lord of the Rings, but, like, so

447

:

Lord of the Rings, like, Frodo and Sam,

and the Hobbits will, like, go through

448

:

an adventure that will, like, cause,

like, a crisis, but then there's, like,

449

:

always a house of resting afterwards.

450

:

And as they go along, like the, the

crises get worse and the houses of

451

:

rest get like, not as good each time.

452

:

So like eventually like they go, they

first go to Tom Bombadil's house,

453

:

which is like the idyllic house, right.

454

:

And the next house is like Rivendell

and Rivendell is like really nice.

455

:

Right.

456

:

And then as they go along, they

keep having these like patterns of

457

:

like, even with like, Oh, in the

movies, they don't really portray

458

:

this as well, but like being with,

Faramir is like a house of rest.

459

:

Because they're like with men who

are like the good side, right.

460

:

And they're able to be safe there.

461

:

And the movies are portrayed as

like, they're like in danger.

462

:

But it's like a place of

rest for them in the books.

463

:

And then they go on and there's

actually, it's like the small

464

:

moment they have in Mordor, right,

465

:

of like being safe for a time.

466

:

And they have like this time to regroup.

467

:

Anyways, but to portray this as like Tom

Bombadil is like Tolkien's portrayal of

468

:

like what his ideal like way of life is.

469

:

Right, like, even it's like

this really deep thing of like.

470

:

This joy that's just over

fusive throughout your life.

471

:

And there's guy's just constantly singing.

472

:

I think it's not a mistake that

Tom Bobadil was married, right?

473

:

That he had a wife who he loved

and it was a big part of his

474

:

life and he lived in nature.

475

:

So I think rather than being like

this, like lonely little hermit, it

476

:

was like actually Tolkien's idea of

like what a perfect or ideal life

477

:

is like, an ideal home is like.

478

:

Sorry to like on that rant, but I

479

:

Philip: No, that's cool to, that's cool

to like point out the, kind of the stages

480

:

of the resting places on their journey.

481

:

Yeah.

482

:

I hadn't thought about that before.

483

:

So..

484

:

Mark: Yeah.

485

:

But like, it's also like Tolkien

trying to say something about like,

486

:

Oh, this is the ideal place of rest.

487

:

And also like what the greatest challenges

are, throughout The Lord of the Rings.

488

:

yeah.

489

:

To the hobbits.

490

:

So,

491

:

Philip: Yeah, I guess the last

thing with just Tom Bombadil is

492

:

that like, I just find it like kind

of odd to think about him, like

493

:

showing magic, to, to the wizard.

494

:

Anyways, well, see how it goes.

495

:

Mark: All right.

496

:

Next plot line is Isildur and

Arondir and the lady's name.

497

:

I can't remember.

498

:

Philip: Can't remember her name either.

499

:

And then Theo,

500

:

Mark: Theo.

501

:

So, really

502

:

quick, Arondir finds out that the girl has

pled allegiance to Adar, they put her in

503

:

chains, they take her out, they get stuck

in the mud, the big worm monster comes

504

:

out, and she saves them, and so they're

like, oh, she's good now, and then they're

505

:

like, is she good now, because she draws

Isildur's sword on him, and then the Ents

506

:

show up and they take out her, and then

they have this conversation with Arondir.

507

:

And then now we know the orcs are

there and they say like, well, I've

508

:

let Theo go and now the orcs are there.

509

:

So that will probably, they'll try to

like go and attack the orcs or something.

510

:

So thoughts on that Phil?

511

:

Philip: Yeah, I thought the worm

was kind of like a neat addition.

512

:

I, I guess like, I think there

were like types of worms that

513

:

were in the lore originally.

514

:

I don't know if that would

be a definite type, but.

515

:

I mean, he seems to, seems to fit.

516

:

I don't know that the mud was deep enough

for him to, to live in all the mud like

517

:

that, but, One thing I did find, maybe

you picked it up better than I did, but

518

:

whenever I was watching it, I'm like,

wait a second, how did like the, how'd

519

:

the Ents know that Theo was connected to,

Arondir all of a sudden he's like coming

520

:

out of the tree and Arondir's like Theo

and it's like um I don't think there

521

:

was any communication about this, but

522

:

Mark: Well, yeah, seems like, it seems

like they let everybody go, right?

523

:

Cause that's where, like, the girl's

fiancé shows up or whatever, and now it's

524

:

gonna be like this weird love triangle.

525

:

So, my thought on this storyline

was like, this is where, like,

526

:

everything got, like, super cheesy.

527

:

Like, this is all just a bunch

of like either quick references

528

:

or like cheesy, cliche stuff.

529

:

They're like thinking like mud,

like quicksand or whatever.

530

:

Like that's so generic of like,

oh, the person we don't trust

531

:

like sticks in a stick, right?

532

:

Oh, we all thought she was going

to leave now, she sticks in a

533

:

stick and like pulls us out.

534

:

The worm, like, it was so random,

like, I don't know, right?

535

:

There's this giant worm underneath

and it's like, oh, okay, like,

536

:

I guess this is a thing now?

537

:

Yeah, I guess I felt like it was,

like, so random, but I didn't

538

:

know if I had any thoughts.

539

:

It's, like, not lore inaccurate, but,

like, at the same time you're, like,

540

:

randomly just throwing it in the

middle of nowhere is sort of weird.

541

:

Especially because, like, they could have

spent more time with the Ents, right?

542

:

Like, that was the other thing, is, like,

they threw in the Ents, but that scene was

543

:

so quick, and, like, that was probably the

highlight of the episode for me, is, like,

544

:

you know, the Ents, like the Ents are

like the people who talk really slow and

545

:

that dialogue was like so back and forth

and so fast paced that I was like, this

546

:

doesn't feel like we're talking with Ents.

547

:

I don't know.

548

:

Right.

549

:

It was like, Oh, we're just going to

throw in this reference because we can.

550

:

And yeah, and the, like the love thing

with like between Isildur and the

551

:

girl, like, I just am not feeling it.

552

:

Like, this is just.

553

:

Some soap opera drama thing

where like, oh no, now her like,

554

:

lover is back and do I trust her?

555

:

Like, I promise I won't let

anybody hurt you or whatever.

556

:

I don't know, like very

dumb, very boring to me.

557

:

yeah,

558

:

Philip: Cause it it's, I don't know,

they're kind of taken like this girl with

559

:

a sketchy past and trying to like connect

her with Isildur which, I don't know.

560

:

I mean, I guess it's not necessarily

a bad thing or anything, but.

561

:

It's, it's just an interesting

way of trying to tell the story

562

:

and twist up the storyline.

563

:

Mark: They're tryin' to add like a

little spice to it, but like yeah,

564

:

I think, I think you want to like, I think

you should aim to, like for more epic than

565

:

like cheesy stuff, like plot lines, right?

566

:

Like you think of like Arwen and maybe

that's like a high bar, but like Arwen

567

:

and Aragorn or something, or even

like Eowyn's flirting with Aragorn

568

:

is like totally different than this,

569

:

right.

570

:

And it's just cheesy and it's quick.

571

:

And it's like, Oh, all of a sudden,

like you are falling in love.

572

:

I will say that like, Arondir like

continues to be like the standout actor

573

:

of like, Oh, I get the vibe of like, these

are what elves are supposed to feel like.

574

:

Like in that moment between like

him and the like Ents is like,

575

:

Oh wow this is like, this is what

it's like supposed to feel like.

576

:

Right?

577

:

Like he feels like this mysterious

old person who has this connection

578

:

to nature and like the nature

is like responding back.

579

:

I don't know.

580

:

Like he just says continue like a

standout performance to me, and I

581

:

just like wanted to shout out him.

582

:

Philip: Dude, I saw, that was, yeah,

that was the next thing I was gonna touch

583

:

on too, is, yeah, it's just like, the

whole, like, him, you know, speaking to

584

:

the, to the Ents, or like, you know, kind

of talking to them through magic, Yeah,

585

:

it's like, it just, it just seems like

he's like the best elf in the show and

586

:

he's not even lore he's not even lore!

587

:

Mark: He's not like, not Oh, I was

like born in Valinor, or something.

588

:

He's just like some random dude Right.

589

:

Like, he's the one that like

the most elf, like, right.

590

:

And then be like

591

:

Philip: He's got, like,

a shaved head almost.

592

:

Mark: They did like power is not about

like just fighting ability is like, right.

593

:

His ability to like,

Oh, I'm going to like.

594

:

Lay down my bow and connect with the

trees is like, wow, this is like,

595

:

this is what it means to be powerful.

596

:

Right.

597

:

That like to not always be able to

like cut through your way through every

598

:

single like obstacle, but to be able

to like reason or connect with people

599

:

or to have like power over things.

600

:

Right.

601

:

Yeah, I don't know.

602

:

Philip: It seems like he might be, like,

the one guy who, like, has read the

603

:

Silmarillion, five times, and the, like,

The Lord of the Rings books, like, twenty.

604

:

And he's like, guys, I got this.

605

:

All right, just let me do

606

:

Mark: Yeah, I feel like, actually, I'm

guessing that he studied The Lord of

607

:

the Rings and the way the elves acted

and were portrayed in that, and like,

608

:

maybe especially Legolas a lot more than

maybe other people did, or other people

609

:

just wanted to sort of set their own

tones for the way the elves should act,

610

:

but yeah, like again, like everybody

else acts like they're like a man or

611

:

like a human with like pointy ears.

612

:

And he acts like he's like a

mysterious immortal person, elf person.

613

:

Yeah.

614

:

Like that's, again, yeah, but

again, I, I wish we did more

615

:

time with the ents, right?

616

:

Like why not slow that scene down and

make the ends like talk super slow.

617

:

And like spend more time and some other

actually some like to talk about like

618

:

the the difference in the lore and the

world views I actually think there was

619

:

like some pretty deep things of like the

ends hold on to things for a really long

620

:

time because they're so old and they

age so slowly, She's like forgiveness

621

:

takes an age Yeah, I don't know.

622

:

I, I don't know if Tolkien would,

like, write that, the ents saying that,

623

:

necessarily, but at least, like, you're

trying to say something deeper about,

624

:

like, because, you know, whenever

healing takes a long time, it can,

625

:

forgiveness can also take a long time.

626

:

yeah.

627

:

Philip: That's something that, I

mean, a deep, slow voice doesn't

628

:

have to be an ent, you know, I guess,

but that's what I, you just think of

629

:

Treebeard in the trilogy and that's

what, you know, comes to my mind.

630

:

And like, Treebeard's the only one

who talks in The Two Towers, at least.

631

:

So, I mean, there are, there are

other ends to talk in the books.

632

:

Like the, uh,

633

:

Mark: Quick Beam.

634

:

Philip: Quick beam!

635

:

That's right.

636

:

Yes.

637

:

Yes.

638

:

The, uh, the one elf that, I mean,

the one ent that actually like

639

:

Mark: He spends, actually, most

of the time with, like, Merry

640

:

and Pippin in the books, right?

641

:

Like, he takes him around most places.

642

:

yeah.

643

:

It's interesting.

644

:

So, one thing I will say is, like,

the one Ent was clearly an Ent-wife.

645

:

So, clearly that's why she

has a higher voice, and, yeah.

646

:

I thought their, like, portrayal

was pretty good, except,

647

:

again, the talking slow thing.

648

:

But you're right, like, Treebeard

is, like, was a really good

649

:

portrayal in The Two Towers.

650

:

And they didn't have, like,

a lot of other Ents talking.

651

:

So, maybe this is, like, a little

more difficult than we thought.

652

:

Philip: Yeah.

653

:

But I I totally do agree that the

ent's the ent scene was pretty short.

654

:

I would have liked that to be longer.

655

:

And like, cut down on some of

the other stuff too, I think.

656

:

Mark: Like, the random worm showing up.

657

:

Philip: Random worm showing up.

658

:

Like, I don't think the Harfoots

needed all that time probably.

659

:

You know,

660

:

Mark: don't think the show

has needed the Harfoots.

661

:

I'm gonna be real with you, Phil.

662

:

Philip: Yeah, yeah, they I don't

know man, they, they could have been,

663

:

been done a little better probably.

664

:

It's, I don't know, it's just hard to

say, it's hard to say cause the stranger

665

:

is also just another, like he just needs

to know like who's bad and who's good.

666

:

Like none of this figuring it out.

667

:

Come on guys.

668

:

Like, like he should be the one who is

like figured all this out already, you

669

:

know, by now and it's like, all right.

670

:

We've gotta go like, help, Elendil

671

:

Mark: Face Sauron and whatever.

672

:

Philip: or something,

you know what I mean?

673

:

Or like, let's go find Isildur or

like, something like that to me would

674

:

be like, would be like, that would

be, that would be That'd be good.

675

:

That'd be huge.

676

:

I mean, I get it.

677

:

Like, it's gonna be maybe cool to

like, see the wizards, you know.

678

:

That's maybe a cool idea to have

them go up against each other.

679

:

I get it.

680

:

And maybe they'll try to bank on that one.

681

:

And you think about like, the

dark wizard, like, he honestly

682

:

like, seems pretty legit.

683

:

And just like, and what we've seen of

him, just as far as a wizard's concerned.

684

:

And I guess like, the blue wizards

did, they did roam around, and

685

:

eventually like, they just like, lost

686

:

Mark: Explicitly the blue lil's

wizards wandered around in the east.

687

:

So, if this character is supposed to

be a blue wizard, that could be them.

688

:

Though, why they're not calling

him a blue wizard and calling

689

:

him the dark wizard, who knows.

690

:

Philip: Right?

691

:

Because like, people also have like,

theories that like, they like became like

692

:

dark wizards, like later on eventually.

693

:

Mark: Yeah, so Tolkien actually like, so

Tolkien had changed his mind on the blue

694

:

wizards frequently, but one, the first

theory he had was that they became evil

695

:

and set up cults for themselves, and then

his next theory was that actually they

696

:

like opposed Sauron in the east, like

the Gandalf opposed him in the west, and

697

:

therefore like they actually were critical

to stopping Sauron and we're like good

698

:

guys and Uh I, if like if the show is

trying to portray that the stranger is

699

:

actually a blue wizard then it could be

that like they're playing both of those

700

:

that one of the blue wizards is the dark

wizard who is evil and one of the blue

701

:

wizards is like going to be the stranger

who's good and therefore they're going

702

:

to like fight in the the west, east but

it seems pretty clear that the wizard

703

:

the stranger is going to be Gandalf, and

the dark wizard is probably gonna be

704

:

like a random blue wizard or something.

705

:

They're just gonna throw a name.

706

:

Any more like general thoughts

on this episode, Phil?

707

:

Did you say what your favorite part was?

708

:

Or least favorite part of the episode was?

709

:

Philip: Well, I think, I mean, after

talking about it, it wasn't, it

710

:

wasn't so bad, but I, yeah, I was

bugged by like, how did, how did they

711

:

know that Theo was connected with

Arondir and whatnot, but I guess they

712

:

let everybody out at the same time.

713

:

So that kind of dispelled that doubt.

714

:

And there's some things that seemed

off with, with, um, Tom Bombadil,

715

:

as we were talking about, and his,

like, what was, what was that one, so.

716

:

The one part where he was, like,

talking to, what was it, what was

717

:

the, who he was calling, that the

stranger was like, oh, are we, are we

718

:

alone, or is there somebody else here?

719

:

Mark: Yeah, that was really strange.

720

:

So they like seem to have a

woman singing in the other room.

721

:

Like Goldberry sings with

Tom Bombadil in the books.

722

:

And then the stranger's

like, who is singing?

723

:

And he's like, Nobody,

just me, or whatever.

724

:

And so it seemed like maybe they were

trying to give a nod to the people

725

:

who read the books of like Hey, see,

we know Goldberry exists, and we're

726

:

gonna reference her, but we're not

actually gonna include her in the show.

727

:

Was sort of how I interpreted that.

728

:

Philip: Interesting...

729

:

Or at, least they

weren't showing her then.

730

:

Mark: It seems like they're probably

not going to show her since the

731

:

Stranger's like, I'm all alone and

there's nobody else here or whatever.

732

:

Unless she like, randomly

shows up later on.

733

:

Philip: Okay.

734

:

Yeah.

735

:

Mark: Unless Goldberry is like,

one of the Dark Wizards people.

736

:

Oh my goodness, how would be?

737

:

She's the white lady or

738

:

Philip: Yeah.

739

:

That would be, that would be weird, man.

740

:

That would be weird.

741

:

Mark: I was gonna say my favorite

moment was the, the Ents.

742

:

My least favorite moment was

probably generally the Tom Bombadil

743

:

because it was really disappointing.

744

:

Though honestly, like the ring healing

magically was probably a close second.

745

:

I just am so fed up with the show, the

show's portrayal of magic and I rant

746

:

about it every single episode, but

it's a problem every single episode.

747

:

So, but yeah, I think in terms of

worldview, I was, I was thinking

748

:

about like, what is their view

of the idyllic, like if I see Tom

749

:

Bombadil is like the idyllic life

that Tolkien is portraying is like.

750

:

He has a wife and he's deeply connected

with nature and he's like, so happy,

751

:

and he is singing all the time and he

has like interesting fashion choices,

752

:

but like this idea of like, if that's

like Tolkien's picture of idealism,

753

:

then is there a view of what Tom

Bombadil is different in the show?

754

:

Trying them trying to say something

about what it means to have the idyllic

755

:

life that it is being like all alone, as

opposed to being like with somebody, like

756

:

a wife, or like a connection to nature.

757

:

Um, yeah, I don't know.

758

:

I, I, I don't know if you

have any thoughts on that.

759

:

Philip: Yeah, No, I think, I think

what you're saying there is good.

760

:

I don't know exactly if, it's easy

to say that their opinion of idyllic

761

:

life is like what they're trying to

get across in the show is like with

762

:

the way that they're portraying Tom

Bombadil, but, if it definitely,

763

:

definitely seems that that's Tolkien's

like way of portraying like what, you

764

:

know, life might be at its best, then,

Then it'd be easy to just assume that

765

:

that's the way they're doing it as well.

766

:

But, Yeah.

767

:

I've been also, like, just over

the past few episodes, kind of

768

:

impressed at times, to be honest.

769

:

I came into, like, all the episodes,

but, like, the beginning, episode

770

:

one, with very much a, Oh, this

is not, you know, This is going

771

:

to be the level of season one.

772

:

I'm going to leave my

expectations at that.

773

:

So they definitely have, in different

ways, been better than season one.

774

:

And the lore also has been, I think, in

different places, has been, I think, drawn

775

:

better than, what they did in season one.

776

:

and while I'm not, you know, it's

not perfect and by any means, but I

777

:

don't know it's just, it's, it's a

little bit easier to just have fun.

778

:

In my opinion, like it was a little

easier to have fun with this season.

779

:

I know, I think a lot of people

still came into the show with

780

:

very like, very critical ness.

781

:

I mean give it, give it to all the

serious fans who are, you know,

782

:

giving it a hard time over lore

and everything, which is fine.

783

:

But yeah, it's just kind of like, kind of

like some ending thoughts on all of that.

784

:

Mark: yeah, I, I actually would

totally agree that I really enjoyed the

785

:

season much better than the last one.

786

:

Part of me wonders if it was

my expectations were lower.

787

:

I was gonna say like the first

three episodes I thought were

788

:

much better this last episode.

789

:

I was just like They're

just throwing in references.

790

:

There are a lot of cliches.

791

:

I thought what the first three episodes

did was like, Oh, you focused on like the

792

:

unique storylines of the original season.

793

:

And that was like, I thought more

interesting, but now it seems like

794

:

they're just trying to throw in

references to like other stuff rather

795

:

than focusing on what they've got.

796

:

Yeah.

797

:

I think that's all we

have for tonight, Phil.

798

:

Philip: Yeah.

799

:

Well, thanks, Mark.

800

:

That was, it was a good, good talk and,

good reviewing it with you and, thanks

801

:

everyone for tuning in and we'll catch

you guys for our review of episode five.

802

:

Philip Outro: Thanks for

visiting The White City.

803

:

Before you leave, please subscribe

to our podcast and check us out

804

:

at thewhitecitypodcast.com or

on YouTube or Facebook under

805

:

the tag @thewhitecitypodcast

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