This is part two of a two-part series on the petition created by the Harvard Law School's Animal Law Clinic on behalf of wildlife animal advocates seeking to eliminate anticoagulant rodenticides in Massachusetts. Not only are these poisons a cruel way to kill rodents, the victims of these devices extend to wildlife and even species that are protected.

Our guests will discuss how they have come together in this fight, the importance of education of the public on this issue, and what we can do together to promote species conservation and welfare. They will also share their personal experiences as they are first hand witnesses of the injuries suffered by eagles, hawks, owls, and other wildlife.

Part I guests are:

Lla Anderson, Law student at the Harvard Law School

Laura Kiesel, founder of Save Arlington Wildlife

Part II guests are:

Marci Cemenska founder of Save Lexington Wildlife

James Joyce II, founder of Friends of Horn Pond

Mentioned in this episode:

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The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

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Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host, Dr.

3

G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

This is part two of our episode, Stop

Poisoning Our Birds, which is about

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Massachusetts advocates that are fighting

against anticoagulant rodenticides.

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So if you have not listened to

part one yet, I would recommend

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you pause, listen to part one, and

then continue on to this episode.

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On this episode, part two, we're going

to hear from Marci Cemenska from Save

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Lexington Wildlife and from James

Joyce II from Friends of Horn Pond.

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Our next guest is Marci Cemenska.

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Marci is the founder of the

Save Lexington Wildlife.

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Thank you, Marci, for being here,

and welcome to the Junction.

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So can you start by letting

our listeners know about your

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background and then what led

you to where you are at today.

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Marci Cemenska: Well, that's

an interesting question.

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I'm not exactly sure how I got

here, but I find myself here.

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So, um, yeah, I've always liked animals.

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So I grew up in Illinois.

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Um, I always liked animals.

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Uh, then I lived in

Colorado for a long time.

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Then I moved to Massachusetts,

but I really wasn't involved in a

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anything politically or, you know,

any, you know, Action like this.

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But then I started getting involved

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started a group in Lexington.

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And so that was probably sort of

the start of my activists, you

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know, being a unpaid protesters.

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My husband says, um, and then a few

years ago, I got involved with the

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North Atlantic right whale issue.

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Uh, uh, so they're one of the most

endangered species on the planet.

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And, um, a friend of mine was leading

up some campaigns and supporting

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federal legislation to get ropeless

gear, get funding for ropeless gear.

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So I got greatly involved

with that and helped her out

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through my indivisible network.

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And so, um, we had, I think, all of

the congressional delegations signed

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on to that by the end of the campaign.

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And so, um, and then in 2021,

I think I heard about the owls

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that were dying of rodenticide.

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And I learned about that issue, and I

guess I just thought it was unacceptable.

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That, you know, that we're killing all

these wild animals, and that there's all

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these readily available alternatives.

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And so, um, in 2022, I got more involved,

and then I helped, um, Laura and Gary

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Menon at a table in Arlington, and then

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a, at a presentation in Lexington, and

then late last year, and, you know, I

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just kept kind of getting more and more,

more involved, and then late last year

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in November, um, I did a couple things.

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One, I started Save Lexington Wildlife.

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And I also decided that we should bring

something to town meeting in Lexington.

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And so Save Lexington Wildlife was sort

of a vehicle to raise awareness and,

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and get that article to town meeting.

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DrG: I think it's important to

educate people because I think that

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a lot of the public do not, is not

aware of the dangers of rodenticides.

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Not only to the wildlife, but also to

even their families and their pets.

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But also just the, uh, The death

of these animals is something

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that is pretty torturous, right?

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It's pretty excruciating.

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How would you say that, that the way

that these wildlife animals are poisoned,

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how does it affect you directly?

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Marci Cemenska: Well, these

perfectly healthy animals are just

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bleeding to death, and there's just

something wrong with that, right?

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I mean, the, the raptors tend to

just bleed out of their feathers.

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You know, where they attach to their

body, um, with mammals, I think

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it's more internal, but I think

it's extremely painful and, um, it's

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just, it's just senseless, um, you

know, that we have this going on.

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And yeah, so it's a, it's an

excruciating death because they're

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essentially hemorrhaging inside.

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DrG: I know that you've taken part in this

petition through the Harvard Animal Law

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Clinic, uh, but what other things have

you done as far as to be able to engage

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the community in an advocacy effort?

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Marci Cemenska: Uh, so, you know, I

held the public forum with Laura and

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Gary in 2023, and then since Creating

Safe Lexington Wildlife, um, we,

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the first thing that we kind of did

was I ordered the 100 yard signs.

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And then, you know, people in, say,

Lexington Wildlife helped me get

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those distributed, so if you drive

around Lexington, you know, there's

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a hundred yard signs that say, you

know, don't poison our food, and

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it's got a picture of the owl on it.

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Um, and then we held a, another

public forum in February.

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We had Laura and Gary come back

to educate people on the issue.

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And then on March 2nd, we hosted a big

event in Lexington Center, and we had

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Jane Newhouse and Eyes on Owls come.

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And then we also had several organizations

that were tabling, like the SGAR

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Brigade, and then Gary had a table.

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Um, and so that was a big

event to get the word out.

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And then, really, the, the town meeting

was a huge way to get the word out,

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because your, um, You know, it's,

it's on the town meeting warrant.

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People are seeing it.

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There's all these presentations you

have to make, whether it's to the select

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board or the conservation committee or

the recreation committee or, um, or,

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you know, local groups that asked us to

come, like Lex Climate Action Network to

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find out about the issue, because some

of these local groups will, um, will lend

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support to these, um, Uh, to these various

articles, they're environmental related.

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So that was just a really great way to

reach a whole lot of people on the issue.

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Actually, two years ago, I

actually created bookmarks.

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So I went to a conference, an

individual conference in the summer.

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I created bookmarks that had

information on it and the bill numbers.

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Um, so, so that might've been the

first thing that I created, but

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the last year with town meeting,

it was just a, a really great forum

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to reach a whole lot of people.

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DrG: What kind of feedback are you getting

from like the public and the lawmakers?

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Does it look like somebody is listening?

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Marci Cemenska: Well, the public

is very supportive of this issue.

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I always say that, um, people don't

know about it, but as soon as they

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hear about it, they're supportive.

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I think most people just don't like

the idea of perfectly healthy animals

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bleeding to death when there's

readily available alternatives.

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I think most people see

the injustice in that.

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DrG: How was it working

with the Animal Law Clinic?

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Marci Cemenska: Oh, it's been wonderful.

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Absolutely wonderful.

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So I knew of the clinics at

Harvard Law School before.

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And so that's why I contacted them.

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Um, but it just, you know, just the

whole crew at Harvard Law has, was just

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wonderful throughout the whole process.

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DrG: So what what do you hope that

will come out from these petitions?

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Do you think that something will happen?

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Or do you think this is just like the

first step to what's next to come?

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Marci Cemenska: Of course, we

all hope that they'll disagree

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to the petition, right?

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That there will be enough evidence

for them to suspend the registration.

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I honestly don't have enough

knowledge to say what will happen.

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But, um, I also try to take these

things one step at a time, so if, if

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they deny it, you know, I, I don't

know enough whether they can deny it

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in, um, the whole thing or whether

they might accept some of it, but

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not others, I, I really don't know.

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But I think that, uh, the petitioners

are all committed, so we'll see what

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happens and then take, do whatever

steps we need next if, you know, if

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that's what, if that's what happens.

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DrG: So if somebody that's listening

is interested in being an advocate,

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what would you tell them is going

to be what they should be doing?

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Marci Cemenska: I think find out about the

issue, try to educate yourself, you know,

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either, uh, from other activists or from

materials that are up on, you know, the

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internet, there's all kinds of materials.

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Um, I'm going to say putting those

yard signs out was just a fantastic

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way of getting the word out.

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Because when you're driving around,

Lexington's not that big of a town,

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but when you're driving around and

there's a hundred yard signs out there,

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it just, it catches people's interest.

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And then we, I also have these

t shirts, uh, that have that

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same, you know, owl emblem.

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And those T shirts attract attention,

and people start asking about it.

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So I think if you can put these

things out there and have people

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start saying, What is that?

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You know, and you tell them,

You start getting, you start

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seeing a lot of support.

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For the issue.

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DrG: How can, how can individuals find

information about your organization?

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Marci Cemenska: So we have a

website, safelexingtonwildlife.

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org.

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And then we also have

a, um, a Facebook page.

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So either one of those,

they can find out about us.

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DrG: So we're, we're thinking

about, you know, the department of

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agricultural resources, putting these

rodenticides out, but there's also

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businesses that will do it privately.

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So what have you done in that regards and

how, what, what have been the results?

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Marci Cemenska: Well, I think that's

been limited so far, but it's something

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that I kind of would like to do,

you know, one of the next steps.

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We did a lot of work with Whole

Foods, the Whole Foods in Arlington,

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Massachusetts, I should say.

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But we also contacted the home

office that was out west of here.

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I don't know that that had a positive

effect other than, I don't know.

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You know, a lot of

activists came together.

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And so that's always, you know, energy

generating to go and be there at

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the store, but Whole Foods was not

receptive at all to hearing about it.

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And then there was a campaign that

Laura organized to essentially everybody

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call the home office and leave messages

and fill their box, which did happen.

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But I don't.

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There wasn't really any movement as far

as I can tell on that issue, um, which I

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think Whole Foods is a perfect candidate

to target in the sense that it's part

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of their mission to be a good, you know,

neighbor and citizen, but at least in this

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aspect they're not, but I still think that

that's a good organization to target if we

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can gather enough resources in the future.

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Um, the other, um, business that

was Petition was the New England

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Aquarium and so they had bait boxes

outside and, um, you know, due to

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various advocacies and conversations

and then Laura created a petition.

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They took away the bait

boxes from their location.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that was another.

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I don't know what you call it, crazy case.

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Here you have the New England Aquarium,

whose thing is conservation, saving right

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whales, saving, you know, things in the

ocean, and they've got a bait box outside

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the seal enclosure in the back, you know?

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Um, in fact, I went to a event once

on right whales and the president

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of the aquarium was there and

I basically took her over and

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pointed to the bait box, you know?

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Um, yeah, I think it's an issue.

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A lot of people just don't know about it.

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You know, they just don't know, and so

until it comes to their attention, I

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think, um, you know, it just happens.

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I've come to believe that this whole

rodenticide issue is like an afterthought.

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You know, people put together, whether

it's a plan or an IPM or they don't

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really think about it at all, but it's

like an afterthought, you know, they'll

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just rubber stamp something versus

really thinking about the dangers of

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these chemicals and what they might do.

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And so the more you can talk to people

and raise awareness, I think the better.

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DrG: Yeah, I think that, you know,

they've been presented with a problem,

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which is the rodent population.

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And then that was kind

of the easy fix, right?

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It's like, we're just going to.

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Plant poison and it just takes care of

itself and not really thinking about

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the repercussions to the environment.

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So I think that now, you know,

it's unfortunate that so many

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animals have had to suffer and die.

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But hopefully, you know, we can

use this information to show

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them that this needs to stop.

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And that they are better, more humane,

not just, not just more humane for the

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wildlife and for companion animals,

but even for the rodents, even if you

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don't like rodents, you should not want

them to suffer a horrible death, right?

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Marci Cemenska: Their death

from these second generation

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anticoagulants is horrible.

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You know, they're hemorrhaging and, you

know, maybe living for a couple of days

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in the state, so it's really horrible.

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Um, I mean, so I've attended

the wildlife rehabilitators of

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Association of Massachusetts, RAM.

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And even on there, you know,

you get people that rehabbers

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basically say, actually the most

humane way is like snap traps.

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You know, it's quick, right,

versus any kind of poison.

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But I've also come to believe that part

of the problem with these rodenticides

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is that people are so squeamish.

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They, it's almost like they just can't

bear to see a mouse dead in a trap.

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Unfortunately, you know,

you can use rodenticides.

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And then it's going to go

up the food chain, right?

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And so side out of mind, out of

sight, out of mind, because I think

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they, they don't want to have to

deal with seeing that, that mouse or,

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you know, that rat, you know, dead.

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But in the meantime, you know,

things are dying all around us.

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Um, so I, I, I sometimes wonder

if that's another part of

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the, of an education campaign.

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You know, not just alternatives,

but trying to decide what, what

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people find less scary or, you

know, how to get over that.

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DrG: Yeah, and in talking to

Laura, you know, we discuss about

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how us humans create the problem.

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Like sometimes, you know, the way that

we dispose of our trash, the way that

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we, you know, deal with things that,

you know, we leave, uh, people that

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have colonies of cats, for instance,

outside and leave the food outside all

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the time and don't clean out at all.

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After them bird feeders like sometimes

we are causing the problem and we

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are inviting these these pasts these

so called pasts into our environment

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And then we're scrambling to find a

solution where the solution is for us

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to change The our actions just change

the way that we're doing things.

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Marci Cemenska: Right.

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And so, and you know, Laura probably

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530, 000 pounds of this stuff was put

down in the state of Massachusetts.

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That's a lot of poison to be putting

whether an animal consumes it, or it

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ends up in the dirt or a waterway.

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It's just a lot of poison.

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Right.

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And, um, that is not.

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That quantity is not the last line

of defense, do you know what I mean?

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If it was the last line, you wouldn't

be having this, this quantity.

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And so that's really the problem.

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So I guess it's just easy.

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It's easy for people and pest

control operators to put it down

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versus doing a slightly harder work.

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Although, you know, unless you do

the exclusion, do the other things,

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you're still going to have mice.

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You're going to have mice in, in

your house or, or whatever, right?

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Until you do these other prevention steps.

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DrG: Yeah, as long as the resources,

you know, the area has the

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resources to feed and maintain the

mice, they're going to be there.

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So we need to be there.

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Marci Cemenska: Yeah, you know, and I went

to a webinar once and it was interesting.

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They made the case in some way, you know,

you may not ever get down to zero, but

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there's maybe some acceptable level.

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You know, there's two mice.

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If I get a mouse in my house

twice a year, one mouse, I can

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probably live with that, right?

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With a trap or something, you know?

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If I have a thousand in my house,

you know, that's a different story.

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That would be a huge problem, right?

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And so I'm not sure if some people also

walk around thinking that there should,

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there shouldn't be a rat on earth, right?

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There should be no rats.

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Versus if there's one rat and he's out

there, it's not bothering me, you know?

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DrG: Well, and we need,

and they need to be there.

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They need to exist because they are

feeding all of these other animals, right?

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Because we, we say we love the birds

and we want to save the birds from

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these rodenticides, but we can't

eliminate all the rats and the mice

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because that's what they're feeding off.

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I know that I, I often, as I'm driving

home, I will see a big bird that will

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come just flying all the way down and

then they just come off the field with

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something on their, on their grasp.

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So, they, they're doing their job.

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So, if we, you know, if we

poison their food and we kill

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them, who's gonna do that job?

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We're gonna be in, in worse

trouble than we're in right now.

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Marci Cemenska: Yeah, there's

all these other threats.

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I think that's another for me.

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Another part of the equation is, you

know, there's the rodenticide threat.

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There's all the building threat.

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There's the climate change.

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There's all these threats on animals.

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And here's 1 that we can actually, we can

actually deal with and use something else.

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And so, I mean, climate change, it's,

it's such a much bigger problem.

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It's harder to deal with, but I can

use a different poison that doesn't

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go up the food chain, or I can use

snap traps, or I can use repellents,

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or, you know, I can maybe figure

out, you know, how to get this hawk

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to come down to my yard more often.

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You know, I can put an owl, an owl,

a box in my yard, you know, there's

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all these things that we can do.

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Um, so it's just, it's just.

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It's just crazy that we're

using this, you know, the second

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generation anti coagulant so much.

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I mean, nobody wants rats in their, in

their house or their school or right.

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Nobody wants that.

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So then the trick is to, to find a way to

eliminate it or, you know, to manage it.

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DrG: Yeah, different problems are

going to have different solutions

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to, like, for instance, in my house,

like, I would, I would hope I don't

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have any mice with my cats, right?

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I would hope that they would do

their job and, and eliminate them.

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But you think about, like, a school or a

food place or somewhere that cannot have

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animals inside, then they're going to have

to think about a different, um, source.

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And that's where, in these collaborative

efforts, everybody coming together

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and saying, you know, like, this

works for this situation, this works

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for this situation, so everybody can.

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Can work towards a solution.

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Marci Cemenska: I mean, I think

it's fair to say you probably

315

wouldn't want to go to a restaurant

where there's rats in the kitchen.

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Right?

317

I think we can all agree on that.

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Right?

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DrG: Yes.

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Marci Cemenska: Um, but I think there's

all these possibilities to use before

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you get to these anticoagulants.

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You know,

323

.

DrG: I don't want rats around my food.

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I also don't want poison around my food.

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Marci Cemenska: Yeah, you don't

want poison around your food.

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Yeah.

327

I'm going to go back to a question

you asked me in the very beginning,

328

and I don't know if this is helpful,

but you said, what's my background?

329

The thing is, I don't really have any

background in biology or that, not

330

that much in activism or anything,

you know, but I think if you care

331

about an issue, you can get involved

and you can make a difference.

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And that's why I kind of like, froze

when you asked me that question, right?

333

But I just think if you care about an

issue, you just start somewhere, either

334

with a friend or doing some research or

talking to your town, and you just, you

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know, you just keep building on that.

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So, you know, now I find myself, right,

leading up this organization in Lexington

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and, And, uh, I mean, the, our article

passed 157 to one, so resounding success

338

in Lexington, you know, on, you know,

resounding support for this article.

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So what, what, what was

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DrG: the article?

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Marci Cemenska: Um, the article we had

was, uh, basically to, uh, it was a

342

resolution to ask the town to develop

integrated pest management policies that

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prohibit the use of escars on town on

land and also to provide public education

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about the hazards of these rodenticides.

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And so, um, so that was our first step.

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We hope, you know, um,

we hope to come back.?

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At town meeting.

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So, um, I don't know, I'm not

from the East Coast, so this idea

349

of town meeting was new to me.

350

But here towns do town meeting

and Lexington has what they call

351

representative town meeting.

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So every precinct elects

nine town meeting members.

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Uh, so they're kind of the

legislative body of the town.

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Um, and so that, you know,

that was, you know, where you

355

take these kinds of things.

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Yeah, so if you look at, um, I don't know

if you're interested, but if you look at

357

Lexington Town Meeting 2024 and you go

to Article 40, you can see the kind of

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materials I had to, I had to put up there,

the presentation, the slide deck, uh,

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recommendations or support from the select

board and, and other entities in the town.

360

And then actually the Harvard effort that

provided us with, you know, just a, A huge

361

amount of information and, um, I mean,

I say every, every activist in this, you

362

know, rodenticide movement should read

that petition and that request because we

363

can all speculate how it works or what the

law is or what the rules are, you know,

364

but unless someone interprets it from a

legal standpoint, it may not be accurate.

365

And so I found that like vastly

important for my knowledge on this

366

issue to be able to advocate for it.

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DrG: And we're going to be sharing

the petition again, not just to

368

bring awareness to the problem there

in Massachusetts, but I'm sure that

369

this is happening in other places.

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So, you know, they may not

know that they have a problem.

371

Marci Cemenska: I think each state that

does something, we'll do it a little

372

different, but then each state will add

to the body of knowledge for other states.

373

That wanna take action.

374

And so I think, I think the value

in, in creating this petition and

375

everything, I mean, you know, I, of

course I want it to pass, but there's

376

already been a huge benefit to doing

it as far as education and 'cause,

377

you know, letting the state know that.

378

We are taking action in this way.

379

So we're pursuing not just a legislative

approach, but also a legal approach.

380

So to me, all that is a huge value.

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I mean, I am so thankful that

Harvard Law took this case.

382

You know, I'm so thankful.

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DrG: Yeah.

384

And it looks like they put a

lot of heart and effort into it.

385

Again, writing the petition and

getting all the information and getting

386

everybody together and giving each of

each of the advocates their own voice.

387

And then, together voice, right?

388

Marci Cemenska: Yeah.

389

I mean, you know, they, I have no idea

how many hours, you know, they spent

390

on this because it was two semesters

of students and then all the staff.

391

And this, it's a huge effort to

put something like this together.

392

But I'm so thankful that they did.

393

DrG: I'm

394

Marci Cemenska: glad that they're there

and I'm glad that there are clinics like

395

this that are going to help with advocacy

efforts, especially, you know, in times

396

where, you know, It's a big issue, but

there's not a lot of money and a lot of

397

finances backing it up that there are

these pro bono clinics that, um, that

398

are there to help to help these cases.

399

Yeah, I mean, because I mean, at least

in Massachusetts, it's just a collection.

400

It's just a grassroots collection

of people and organizations, right?

401

There's no overriding state body

that's doing this, you know,

402

it's not like funds somewhere.

403

Um, it's just individual

groups and people.

404

And so the fact that, you know,

that the Harvard Law Animal Policy

405

Clinic exists and took this case.

406

I mean, you know, I just can't express

how thankful I am that they did that.

407

DrG: Well, thank you for being here.

408

Thank you for joining us and for

sharing your information and thank

409

you for everything that you're doing.

410

Marci Cemenska: Thank you.

411

DrG: Our final guest is James Joyce

II, founder of Friends of Horn Pond.

412

Thank you for being here

and welcome to The Junction.

413

James Joyce II: Thank you, Michelle.

414

Great to be here.

415

DrG: Excellent.

416

Can you first begin by letting

us know about your background

417

and kind of what brought you

to create Friends of Horn Pond?

418

James Joyce II: Yeah, sure.

419

So, uh, so my background is, my

background is actually in engineering.

420

I'm retired now.

421

I retired at the end of 2020.

422

And I was in the microelectronics

and semiconductor, uh, industry.

423

So it's a big difference for

between what I'm doing now and

424

what I was doing as a profession.

425

But I've always been an outdoorsman, uh,

my whole life, and, um, specifically,

426

I've been, uh, monitoring and

following, uh, birds of prey for

427

the better part of 40 or 50 years.

428

And that includes bald eagles and

peregrine falcons, which are, you

429

know, state listed in Massachusetts.

430

Um, so what got me to this point

431

wife and I had been photographing,

uh, bald eagles in, uh, along the

432

Charles River in Massachusetts.

433

But we also were noticing quite

a bit of an uptick in bait

434

stations that were around.

435

And, you know, at the time we

didn't really pay much attention to

436

it, although it was something new

and I didn't really realize that.

437

Um,

438

and then in 2021, uh, when I was, had

retired and I, now I made a, a real

439

study out of this bald eagle, nesting

bald eagles along the Mystic River

440

Watershed in, uh, in Massachusetts,

eastern Massachusetts, I, um, you

441

know, we had a, a bald eagle that,

uh, two bald eagles, MK and KZ, that,

442

uh, hatched two chicks, eaglets.

443

25 C and 26 C.

444

And of course, three weeks after

the fledge, 25 C came down with, um,

445

a significant case of rodenticide

poisoning and, and subsequently died.

446

And, and so, so that got us to the

point of now we're really paying

447

attention and looking into what

exactly is, is going on in the state,

448

as far as legislation is concerned,

what are the things that we could do?

449

So, uh, Patty Sears, Joyce, Jeannie

Bowen, and I founded the Friends of Horn

450

Pond in 2022 as a local conservation

group in Woburn, Massachusetts.

451

We decided to take action when in 2015,

we began seeing a significant increase

452

of rodent bait stations throughout

Eastern Massachusetts watershed

453

areas where we follow bald eagles.

454

And then in 2021, When two of our

bald eagles died of anticoagulant

455

rodenticide poisoning in the Charles

River Watershed and the Mystic

456

River Watershed, respectively.

457

So we're a 501c3 nonprofit organization

dedicated to conserve and preserve

458

the Horn Pond Conservation and

Recreation Area for current and

459

future generations through community

awareness and action, collaborative

460

partnerships, and citizen science efforts.

461

for the Advancement of

Environmental and Wildlife Habitats.

462

Our three key focus areas are poison

free rodent prevention, control and

463

monitoring, protection of the Horn

Pond public drinking watershed, and the

464

Monofilament Reel and Recycle Program.

465

So we have a, we had a monofilament

program that we have active

466

throughout the pond area.

467

Um, but we also have a very significant,

um, push on rodenticide legislation

468

which led us to the fact that this

legislation in Massachusetts doesn't

469

seem to go very well and it seems

to stall out and, and therefore

470

it drove us down this path of.

471

Uh, working with Harvard Law, as you

know, um, on this Harvard Law petition.

472

So, that in a nutshell got us to where,

um, got us to where we are, um, you know.

473

So, for the last few years,

this is what we've been doing.

474

And, and I will mention one thing.

475

There was a bald eagle, that

bald eagle nest that we had

476

been following in Waltham.

477

That was the bald eagle nest.

478

That M.

479

K., the Mystic Lake Bald Eagle,

that's where she hatched.

480

And that was our, that was our

introduction to that, to M.

481

K.

482

and, and, and the two adults.

483

And we also followed them very closely

and monitored them very closely.

484

And the adult female eagle, also died of

rodenticide poisoning about three months

485

before the mystic lake bald eagle died.

486

So, you know, now we, we really had

this, we really had this tie into what's

487

going on with, what's going on with

materials in the environment that are

488

taking out these bald eagles that we've

been following for quite some time.

489

So that's, that's how we started.

490

DrG: So this issue with MK, you actually

were involved with the, with the

491

attempt to rescue her, is that correct?

492

James Joyce II: That is correct.

493

You know, once you start down this, once

you start down this path, you start to

494

make a lot of different connections and

we certainly made some real connections

495

in with, um, the wildlife community, um,

and in with the rehab community as well.

496

So, you know, one of the things that,

one of the things that my wife and I did

497

early on was we really wanted to know

what kind of data is actually out there to

498

support what we were trying to accomplish.

499

And, and we found that, you

know, there's a lot of studies.

500

I mean, Dr.

501

Maureen Murray at Tufts Cummings

School of Veterinary Medicine,

502

she's did a significant amount

of studies over a 15 year period.

503

We read them all.

504

But what were the, what was the

rehab community actually seeing,

505

um, in the, you know, in the field?

506

Well, what got us to MK was that

now we were connected to the rehab

507

community and I had friends of mine

that, that called me up one Saturday

508

morning and asked, geez, can you

come over here and take a look at MK?

509

She's up in a tree with her

head slumped down, and she's not

510

behaving like she normally does.

511

So if you follow this eagle, you'd know

exactly what that, what that means.

512

I mean, that was not typical

behavior for, for her.

513

Although it was nesting season, and so she

could have been, she could have had eggs.

514

So that was a distinct possibility,

but it was, you know, what we said

515

was, we're not going to go up there.

516

We can't climb the tree and,

and, and get MK out of the tree.

517

So if she comes to the ground, then we

can, we can work with the rehab community,

518

the veterinary community, mass wildlife.

519

We can work with that and we can, we can

attempt to rescue, which we, which we did.

520

And on that Monday morning, you know,

she was on the ground and again, we

521

did the, uh, we did the rescue of MK.

522

And, of course, that didn't, um,

that didn't work out very well as

523

far as, uh, MK was concerned because

she passed about, um, I don't

524

know, 36 hours later, I believe.

525

DrG: So you don't do rehabilitation

yourself, right, but you're, you

526

work with transport, capture and

transport of injured birds to

527

different rehabilitation places?

528

James Joyce II: Yeah,

that's exactly right.

529

So we're, um, we're associates

of, um, we're associates of

530

Cape Ann wildlife in, uh, Essex.

531

So, uh, there's three rehabbers that

are federally permitted rehabbers that,

532

are associated with Cape Ann wildlife.

533

And, um, one of them, uh, Aaron

Hutchings up in Gloucester is the

534

raptor, um, is the raptor expert.

535

Um, so, so no, I don't, I

don't, I don't rehab anything.

536

I, I don't want to be a rehabber.

537

I'm fine being a rescuer and, and, and

a data, you know, a rescuer transporter,

538

but I do quite a bit of data analysis

and that's really where the power of, of

539

what we, what we started doing with, with

Cape Ann wildlife was that every case

540

that came into, you know, to their rehab

and it looked to be a rodenticide case

541

would actually investigate that case.

542

We'd go out in the field

where the bird was found.

543

And would actually compile all of

the bait stations, active ingredients

544

if we could get them, product types.

545

Any kind of label information we

would we had been doing that and we've

546

been doing that now for close to two

years Which got us to all the data

547

that is in the petitions that that

entire data set is um is all that work

548

DrG: Are you seeing most baits in public

or private land or is it a combination?

549

James Joyce II: Combination I think

the places where we see Most of the

550

um, the second generation rodenticides,

anticoagulants, I'd say are in public

551

spaces, not necessarily town owned, but

certainly around um, restaurants, any

552

dumpsters, um, you know, food, waste,

any of that, uh, apartment buildings, we

553

see quite a bit of it around, and um, as

far as residential is concerned, it's a

554

little tricky because you You know, you

really can't, you know, I mean, you don't

555

want to go on to somebody's private land,

private property and start poking around.

556

And, but you can do it from the

sidewalk, which was what I do.

557

And I've suggested this to many that,

um, you know, if you see in a residential

558

area, if you see a bait station, you

might, you know, Want to take a photo

559

of it from the sidewalk or the street.

560

You can log it into an application

that we've started here, uh, which

561

is the, uh, EWA SGARs brigade.

562

And, and Hey, if the residents of

the homeowner are there, you might

563

strike up a conversation with them,

which is what I do quite a bit.

564

And then it becomes a real educational

opportunity, which in the, in the

565

long run, though, Michelle, I think

that, you know, education outside

566

of petitions and legislation.

567

But education is really going

to, is really going to carry

568

the day on this, on this issue.

569

Uh, you know, I've, I've said many times

, and I, I didn't make up this line, but an

570

informed consumer is a powerful consumer.

571

And so you want to, you want to arm

the folks, whether they be residents

572

or business owners with what exactly

do you know what you, do you know

573

what you have and what it's doing?

574

And, and we do have

alternate solutions for you.

575

DrG: Yeah, no, I completely agree

with the education bit, because I

576

think that a lot of people make bad

decisions because they don't know what

577

the right thing to do is, and they

look for a solution, and unfortunately,

578

these are the simple solutions, right?

579

And if people understood that these,

these rodenticides are not just harmful to

580

the wildlife, but even to themselves, to

their family, to their, to their children,

581

to their pets, you know, it would be,

It would be impactful and also the fact

582

that these, these birds that are being

killed, they are pest control, right?

583

Like that's their, that's

nature's pest control.

584

So by killing the birds secondarily

after using the rodenticide, we're

585

eliminating this ability of Mother

Nature to eliminate the mice.

586

James Joyce II: Yeah, it's, it's an

interesting, it's, it's an interesting,

587

um, you know, dynamic that, and when I

do these, when I, when I talk to folks,

588

you know, I'll say, uh, a single raptor,

hawk, owl, coyote, fox, any of these

589

rodent eaters are gonna consume you

know, upwards of a couple of thousand

590

rats a year, and, you know, maybe six

thousand mice a year, and, you know,

591

I'll put up these, I'll put up these,

these photos in my presentations, and

592

I'll say, you know, I have one that's

got six, and I say, just these six

593

individual, um, you know, creatures,

animals, and, and birds, are, you know,

594

could account for 12, 000 rats and mice.

595

I mean, that's what we're taking

out, and they outbreed us.

596

They outbreed the raptors, and they

outbreed everything, because all these

597

species breed once a year, but the rats

breed 12 times a year, and, you know,

598

they're having 15 pups, and, you know,

you can do the math and figure it all

599

out, but it's, um, you know, it's quite

a bit of, uh, you know, it's, it's

600

quite a disconnect between what you're

trying to accomplish and what you are

601

accomplishing, and you're taking out

nature's, you know, the natural predators.

602

So, I don't know how to sum it up.

603

Any, uh, you know, any, any

easier than that, because

604

that's exactly what we're doing.

605

DrG: No, and it's, you know, it

sounds like common sense, but

606

again, like common sense comes

with having some level of education

607

or knowledge on what's happening.

608

And that's where we need to educate

people better so that we can, we can

609

explain this common sense to individuals.

610

James Joyce II: Yeah, that's correct.

611

I always say, you don't

know what you don't know.

612

And when you, when you talk with folks,

or you stand up in front of an audience

613

and you, you get into, you know, the

background on this issue, but then

614

what can we do to, lower the risk,

what's available to them, what can we

615

do as homeowners and business owners?

616

I mean, that's when it

really starts to set in.

617

And, um, the other thing is, You

know, nobody sees it firsthand.

618

So this is where, you know, the wildlife

rescuers that are out there, the people

619

who find things in their backyards

and they don't know what they've got.

620

And, you know, once they know

or they see something, then

621

it kind of, it really sets in.

622

But how many people see that actually?

623

You know, I mean, we see it all the

time, but most people don't see that.

624

They don't, they don't see

the, they don't see the real

625

ugly side of the whole problem.

626

What they usually see is they usually

see hawks and owls and eagles and

627

coyotes and foxes and they see them

in the wild and they look great and

628

you know, they, and they don't think

anything different than that, right?

629

And they don't connect the dots and

what's going on when they see them,

630

if they, if they happen to see them

and they're, they're sick or injured

631

or they're dead, then it's, um, it

can make a little bit more sense.

632

DrG: About how many calls do you get?

633

Like how frequently do you get

calls about injured wildlife?

634

James Joyce II: I'm not going to say

daily, but um, we're probably out rescuing

635

at least four to five times a week.

636

Now, they're not all rodenticide cases.

637

It's probably somewhere around a 50

50 split, which is not good because

638

that's a significant uptick into what

we were seeing a couple of years ago.

639

You know, up until a couple of years

ago, it was head trauma, you know,

640

vehicle strikes, window strikes,

you know, that sort of thing.

641

And it was probably 70%, maybe 75

percent of the cases with that.

642

Now it's now it's almost an even split.

643

It's almost 50, 50.

644

And we had one yesterday.

645

That's just absolutely horrific.

646

We had a fledgling red tail hawk down

in one of the city areas, about 15

647

miles from where we live, and we got

a call from, we got a call from Cape

648

and wildlife and can we get on there

and take a peek at this and, you

649

know, it was found in the road and.

650

And it was bleeding and it bled out.

651

And by the time we had rescued it

and got it up to, up to, you know,

652

to care, it had, um, it had passed.

653

So it was dead on arrival.

654

And it's, uh, it's just an

absolutely horrific, uh, bleed out

655

condition that, um, that we had.

656

I mean, again, this is where, if you, if

you saw the images, people saw the images,

657

they would just be, they'd be horrified.

658

DrG: I'm assuming that the majority

of them are going to be either dead

659

or barely alive by the time that

you guys are able to capture them.

660

Would that be an accurate assessment?

661

James Joyce II: That's a

fairly accurate assessment.

662

Um, I would say again, a

survival rate, maybe around 50%.

663

Um, And, and I'll say

this, timing is everything.

664

So for your, for your, your

listeners, what's really important,

665

it's, it's all about timing.

666

The quicker you can identify a problem

or a bird that's in, or an animal that's

667

in distress, the quicker you can make

that phone call, the quicker you can

668

get a photograph or a video of it.

669

And you get it over to the right people

in the, in the, in the rehab community,

670

, then we can take action on it quickly.

671

And it, and it really does come down to

a matter of, it can be a matter of hours.

672

And in yesterday's case, It was

literally a five hour window,

673

and that was, that was it.

674

Five hours wasn't enough and

sometimes it's even less than that.

675

But the quicker you can identify

that there's a problem and contact

676

somebody, and you can get help, the

quicker it can get into care, and

677

the better the chance of survival.

678

DrG: So about this app, what is this app

about, and what led you to create it?

679

James Joyce II: The application

it's from EarthWiseAware.

680

It's on the Anecdata platform.

681

It's, um, if you, to look this up, it's

the EWA, EarthWiseAware, SGARs Brigade,

682

and it's a, a platform that will allow

us to log in bait stations that we find

683

in the field, any animals, birds that

are either sick, injured, or dead in

684

the field, and also any trash or waste

concerns that we see in the field as well

685

What we do with the data is and right now

we've got about 120 members that are out

686

there doing this Um, it's in the greater

boston eastern massachusetts area But I

687

do know that we've got some folks that are

working outside of massachusetts on this

688

because it uses anywhere in the world.

689

And what we're doing is we actually

take the information and then we

690

do a two level data analysis on the

information to correlate where we find

691

bait stations in relative proximity to

where we found the dead or injured or

692

sick animals in proximity to where do

we have the waste management problems.

693

And you can use the data.

694

It's open source.

695

So you can use this.

696

It's open to the public.

697

Anyone can join.

698

Um, and you can use the data for any

local, uh, legislation, policymaking,

699

education, um, any of that.

700

Uh, it's, it's, it's

all available for use.

701

And I'm, Claire O'Neill is the, is the

president and founder of EarthWise Aware.

702

Uh, I'm the co founder and president

of the Friends of Horn Pond.

703

We worked collaboratively

and jointly on this project.

704

So, You know, we each have a

piece, we each have a piece of it.

705

We actually just took it to the, um,

to the recent annual conference for

706

participatory sciences, which it, um, it

got some real rave reviews, but really

707

the whole, the whole thing is, is that

it's a very, very easy to use application.

708

It's, uh, it's available on your mobile

device or Androids or, or, um, or iPhones.

709

Uh, it's a desktop application as well.

710

So if you, if you want to input

information from your desktop,

711

you most certainly can do that.

712

And like I said, all the data

Including all the maps and, and,

713

and everything that's in there

is all available for anyone.

714

DrG: I think this is extremely useful

because we need data to, not just to

715

understand the problem, but to evaluate

how the solutions are working, right?

716

That is correct.

717

It's the beginning and the end of it.

718

Just saying, you know, this

is what we're proposing.

719

Well is what we're proposing working.

720

So I think that this app is

really beneficial on both ends.

721

James Joyce II: Absolutely it is.

722

It's um, it can, I feel as though it

can help out, it can help everyone.

723

It's um, it's something that we can

use as, as rescuers and rehabilitators.

724

We can use that as, as people who are,

you know, working in the cities and towns.

725

Pest professionals could use it.

726

Um, our state government, so our,

our Massachusetts Department of

727

Agricultural Resources and the

Department of Energy and Environment,

728

I mean, they can use that information.

729

I think it's a win win for everyone.

730

I really do.

731

And, and, and again, I don't think

that there's, there is no one,

732

There's no smoking gun, there's no

one, you know, one thing that can

733

solve this, solve this problem.

734

In the end, no one wants rats.

735

That's how I always say it.

736

No, nobody wants rats, but you want

to be smart about how you either

737

eliminate them from your homes, your

businesses, and how you keep them out.

738

I mean, that's where I think

the power really begins.

739

So when, you know, when you start

researching this out, you know,

740

there's a lot of, there's a lot

of, um, there's a lot of myths that

741

are associated with, with the laws.

742

And until we sent down this path with

Harvard Law, and they did all of the

743

research on the, on the laws in, in

the state of Massachusetts, um, we

744

found out things that intuitively,

you would think that an outside

745

bait station would require a label.

746

It, it does not.

747

There is no law in the book

in Massachusetts that requires

748

that, and there's nothing

on the federal level either.

749

The law in Massachusetts requires that

if you're going to use bait inside, or if

750

you're going to have a bait station inside

of a building, That has to be labeled.

751

It has to be labeled with the

ingredients and, and that.

752

So, so that was an important

piece of information.

753

And so there's a misconception out there

about what is required to be labeled

754

and what's not required to be labeled.

755

Um, we did create a couple of documents

that are available for the public.

756

One of them is, I call it, it's called

the, um, Rodent Bait Station Overview.

757

We created it back several months ago

and rolled it out to Mass Audubon.

758

They've, they've, um, they're

now published it on their website

759

in their Rescue Raptors program.

760

It's out with a variety

of different groups.

761

And we also created another document that

is, it's called Safe Rodent Prevention.

762

It's a safe rodent IPM

options and resource document.

763

We created that too, which gives you

a menu driven, um, approach to how

764

you can implement safe prevention

and rodent control without having

765

to use anticoagulant rodenticides

and mostly any other rodenticides.

766

Um, and people can use that document

and they can see they can, you know,

767

it's a menu driven so they can.

768

They can, they can pick a, pick

a solution or pick something and

769

there could be a multiple, multiple

factors that they want to try.

770

Yeah.

771

Like I say, it's not one size fits

all, but, um, but yeah, it's, uh, it's,

772

it's, it's funny how the, how the laws

work and what people know, again what

773

people know and what they don't know.

774

Um, one thing in Massachusetts is that,

uh, we do have a, a law that's been on

775

the books since November 22 of 2000.

776

It's the Child and

Families Protection Act.

777

And in that, in that, in that law calls

for a, every school daycare after school

778

program, whatever the facilities are,

it requires them by law to have an

779

IPM plan for indoor and outdoor use.

780

And those IPM plans have

to have a coordinator.

781

They have to list what the target species

are, what materials by active ingredient

782

and what product types are being used.

783

So it's a required law.

784

And if anyone was going to look at

how to start, you might consider, if

785

you're in Massachusetts, you might

consider looking at, or in any state

786

that has this, you might consider

looking at those school plans.

787

So um, it's, it's eye opening when you

start to see it because right in our

788

schools we're seeing um, quite a bit

of anticoagulant rodenticides that are

789

listed for use as a, uh, as a, as a

means of control for, for rats and mice.

790

DrG: Yeah, and you know, even the, uh,

with speaking with Lla Anderson, the

791

Massachusetts Pesticide Control Act

792

says that it can not cause unreasonable

adverse effect to the environment, right?

793

And the environment is going to

involve not just the wildlife, but

794

the individuals and everything else.

795

Everybody.

796

That's correct.

797

So in essence, it's violating that.

798

James Joyce II: Yeah, that's correct.

799

It absolutely is.

800

And so I look at you know, I'm

so I look at it also from the

801

perspective of wildlife habitat.

802

So we don't want to adversely affect

the wildlife, but there are, so they all

803

live in wildlife habitats and some of

these wildlife habitats are all priority

804

habitats, especially in Massachusetts.

805

And you can look at this state by state

and it all runs pretty much the same way.

806

So you want to make sure that, yeah,

you're not harming the wildlife,

807

but you want to make sure that

you're not allowing this material

808

to get into wildlife habitats.

809

So streams, rivers.

810

Bordering vegetated wetland, uh, you

know, any of that, uh, any of that,

811

any of those resource areas, you don't

want to allow that material to have an

812

opportunity to migrate into those areas.

813

Because as you know the half life on this

on this material and second generation

814

materials fairly long So it will last in

the environment for for for quite a while.

815

we have a study So Michelle, there's

one thing that on this IPM document.

816

There's quite a bit of research

documentation that's in that IPM

817

document, including a study that was

done over in Europe on anticoagulant

818

rodenticides in water and how long it

lasts and the implications of that.

819

It was provided to me, actually provided

to me by some marine biologists up

820

at, uh, one of the wildlife refuges

up here in eastern Massachusetts.

821

So Parker Riven National Wildlife Refuge.

822

And, uh, again, that's pretty, it's pretty

interesting reading about what happens

823

with this material that people think that.

824

It just dissipates in water,

but that's not really the case.

825

And it does show up in fish and, and,

and these different microorganisms.

826

So yeah, definitely does.

827

DrG: On the legal aspect as well,

something that, that is not common sense

828

is why they are allowed when they are

killing endangered species that are

829

protected by the endangered species act.

830

James Joyce II: You know, that's always

the big, the big argument is that.

831

We have, the United States Fish

and Wildlife has a list, all the

832

listed species in the country.

833

They have them by state,

and they also classify them.

834

In Massachusetts, we have our own.

835

We have our own Massachusetts Endangered

Species Act, and we have the, and we

836

have a Department of Mass in the Mass

Fishing Game, which is the Natural

837

History and Endangered Species Program.

838

And we have state listed birds and, you

know, birds, plants, reptiles, animals,

839

we have them in this, in this act.

840

And if you look at bald

eagles, for instance.

841

Bald eagles and peregrine falcons,

but I'll use bald eagles specifically

842

because we've had rodenticide deaths

in bald eagles That's listed as a spurt

843

of special concern It falls under the

massachusetts endangered species act

844

and we actually have people who are

part of the pest control industry Who

845

say that we have no listed species in

massachusetts, which is just absolutely

846

incorrect and so again it's let's

Let's all work with the facts instead

847

of working by What fits our agendas?

848

Let's work with the facts,

you know, um, so yeah

849

DrG: a lot of misinformation happening.

850

James Joyce II: Yeah, I've got nesting

peregrine falcons that are right over

851

here in my in my town and they they nest

in an area That's it's a priority habitat

852

of rare species and not, A couple of

hundred feet away We've got bait boxes

853

bait stations around that now not that

peregrine falcons are typically rodent

854

eaters But they're opportunists and we

have photographs of them eating rats

855

and that kind of thing So but that just

the fact that you know if you're If you,

856

if you want to make an argument, base

it on the facts, and, and I don't think

857

that you should be able, I don't think

you should be trying to move your, move

858

your argument based upon misinformation.

859

I just don't think so, I don't think

it's right, and I think there's a

860

lot of it going on on my opinion.

861

DrG: No, absolutely,

I, I completely agree.

862

So I guess, in, in closing, I want

to know, what was your experience

863

with the Animal Law Clinic?

864

James Joyce II: Well, so that

is an interesting, that's an

865

interesting how that came about.

866

So back in the beginning of 2023, I

was asked if I would be interested in

867

talking with, uh, Lisa Owens Vianney

out at Raptors are the Solution

868

about perhaps putting a statewide

initiative into Massachusetts.

869

What would that coalition look

like if we were going to do it?

870

And In an April of 2023, I assembled

a, a cross functional group.

871

There were 19 of us that were

on the zoom call with, with

872

Lisa, and she went through.

873

Her entire, um, presentation

on how California approached

874

this problem that they had.

875

What worked?

876

What did they try to do legislatively?

877

And then, what did they

ultimately do with litigation?

878

And how did that work?

879

And if we were going to try that

in the state of Massachusetts,

880

what would that look like for us?

881

And one of the comments that came out on

that was to, to talk with, to reach out

882

to and talk with various law clinics.

883

Harvard Law, the Animal Law Clinic at

Harvard Law, was one of the clinics

884

that was suggested As by the group, and

so when I compiled all the information

885

into an outbrief, I had that down as one

of the action items, and it was Marci

886

Cemenska, who reached out to Harvard Law.

887

But

888

that, that's how it happened, um, and it,

it, it really came out of, it's funny,

889

because the wildlife veterinarians that

were on that call, um, they had some

890

experience with that and they actually

were the ones that, that suggested it.

891

And then, you know, Marcy got that

into the law clinic and then she, you

892

know, then she reached out to myself

and, and my wife Patty and, and then

893

we got on board and then we got.

894

Of course, then we got our wildlife

rehabbers on board too, which

895

that's where all the power is.

896

DrG: Yeah.

897

And in reading the petition, they did

a really good job at explaining the

898

problem and, you know, laying out who

the, the individuals involved were, um,

899

you know, all the petitioners and then

kind of not just saying this is a problem,

900

but there are solutions out there.

901

James Joyce II: Correct.

902

Correct.

903

There's a, there's a multitude of

solutions out there and, um, we just

904

have to find a way to get our towns and

cities and residents and kind of, you

905

know, driving towards that, that common,

common goal or common solution, which,

906

you know, I always say try something.

907

There's something, there are things

out there that are effective.

908

So why not give them a try and do it in

combination with different, different

909

materials, different, different methods.

910

Um, we could try it all and you can,

you know, You can pilot programs and

911

you can implement them, but I mean at

least give it a try instead of Just you

912

know business as usual and you know,

we'll just uh, we'll just continue

913

to get on the path that we're going

914

DrG: Right and with the app we can keep

track if the solutions are working or not

915

so that we can make changes as we go along

916

James Joyce II: we definitely can so if

If uh with that app if if we go back and

917

somebody makes a change and and now we log

that in Uh into the app that they went to

918

they went to this change Then then we'll

know what it is and we can keep track

919

of it and we can see how effective it is

920

DrG: so if any of our listeners want

to get more information about the

921

organization, are you on social media?

922

Is there a website?

923

How can, how can they reach you?

924

James Joyce II: We are on social media.

925

We have a, um, a Facebook group and, uh,

it's, um, you can just search Friends

926

of Horn Pond and, and you'll find us.

927

Uh, we could add one thing.

928

So we, we do have a motto.

929

What we started off with and

it's making, so we call it

930

making a difference together.

931

And it really sums up

exactly what we're all about.

932

Um, And it really is collaboration and,

uh, you know, collaboration and action.

933

DrG: I love that because you know,

everything that we do, like with

934

my organization, my practice,

everything's about collaboration, right?

935

No one group can do everything by

themselves and all different types

936

bring different things to the table.

937

James Joyce II: It, it's exactly right.

938

And you know, in my, in my past life,

that was, that was the way in my

939

entire career, how, how things worked.

940

Um, and it had to be a collaborative

effort, cross functional,

941

which is exactly what this is.

942

Our, our non profit is exactly that.

943

But this coalition that we've

built, Um, is is exactly based on

944

that foundation, collaboration,

action, partnerships, science.

945

It's it's it all rolls together.

946

DrG: Excellent.

947

Well, thank you so much for spending

this time and sharing your knowledge

948

And thank you for everything that

you're doing for the birds and for

949

your voice in this rodenticide issue

950

James Joyce II: Thank you,

Michelle, been a pleasure,