Steffen Baldwin lied about his credentials and past experience to enter the animal world through the Union County Humane Society. With lies, deception, and the help of social media, he developed a persona who gained the trust of the animal welfare community. Due to his perceived greatness as the Executive Director of Union County, he was hired to run the Top of Ohio Shelter in Bellefontaine, Ohio. In his short period of employment, he took a promising yet struggling shelter to a point of no return.

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We had theft from ACT Ohio, which was Stefan's nonprofit organization.

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And from TOPS, which is the top of

Ohio PET Shelter in Logan County.

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That was one of the theft counts.

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Dr. G:

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Hi, and welcome to the

Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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This is Season One, State versus

Steffen Baldwin, Episode Five:

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Taking TOPS to the Bottom.

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This episode is about how Steffen Baldwin

entered the Top of Ohio Shelter, uh,

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initially as a board member and then

became executive director and everything

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he did to basically not help the shelter.

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As always, these episodes contain elements

of animal abuse and domestic violence.

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So please take care of yourselves

and if you need to take a pause,

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take a pause, and then come back.

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This episode is a collection of videos

that I had from while we were working

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with TOPS, as well as some interviews with

some of the individuals that worked with

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Steffen at that time, and then some of

the court testimony about TOPS of Ohio.

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Det. Jim Conroy:

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In January 1st of 2015, he'd become

the executive director of TOPS Ohio.

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Which they were paying

him a $40,000 base salary.

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So now he had income coming in again.

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But instead of changing his ways, he

just continued to spend the ACT Ohio

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money on himself while not paying you.

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So where was that money going?

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It was going to his life expenses.

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He was buying his, his, his

son gifts, Christmas presents,

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birthday presents, toys.

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He was buying himself video games.

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All kind of things.

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His child support payments he was

making, um, he had taken $20,000 out of

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cash with no receipt or no, I, no idea

what happened to the $20,000 he spent.

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He filled up his gas at Gas Marts.

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Uh, he spent like $16,000 in gas

stations and gas marts, uh, fast food.

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He was, uh, somewhere in the

vicinity, I think of like,

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uh, $6,000 on fast food alone.

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Uh, then he was going to restaurants

and bars and alcohol, um, then dates

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and his dating life and girlfriends and

hotels and overnight stays and vacations.

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All of this was paid for, uh, you

know, 95% with ACT Ohio money.

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. Erica Tyler: My name's Erica Tyler.

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Previously Erica Cooper.

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I was a kennel technician at Top

of Ohio Pet Shelter under Steffen.

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He was our interim director for quite

some time, so I worked under him there.

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Dr. G:

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So how about you start by letting

the audience know about, um, how you,

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how you became involved with Tops.

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Erica Tyler: Oh yeah.

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So my grandmother served as board

president for quite some time, but, um,

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from a really young age, like five or

six years old, my grandma and I would

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volunteer at, you know, the Humane

Society before it was even called Tops.

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So we always had some level of

involvement at helping out at, at

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the shelter, rather, you know, she

was serving on the board or not.

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But when I moved back to Ohio from

Alabama, um, my grandma, I believe

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she was serving on the board at that

time, but just not as president.

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Um.

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Or was at least very heavy,

heavily volunteering.

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She wanted me to go work there as

a kennel tech and, and they were

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in dire need of staff at the time.

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So I started there and it was actually

a different director before Steffen.

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Randy Schmidt: My name is Randy Schmidt.

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At the end of TOPS, I was

the president of TOPS.

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But in 2014, uh, a friend who had recently

gone out there, Carol, she said, well,

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why don't you come out, you know, come

out and, you know, see the dogs and stuff.

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And so as it got towards winter,

uh, there in the beginning of 2014,

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they put out a thing that said, you

know, the dogs don't get out much.

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Uh, it'd be great if anybody can come out.

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Well, I don't mind getting

carhartts and boots on and

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take the dogs out in the snow.

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And, and they seemed to really love it.

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And it was nice because there were

not many people out there at the time.

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So I'd try to get 'em out, you

know, about 10, 15 minutes.

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I had about eight or 10 of 'em

that were my regulars, so to speak.

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My major was in marketing from college.

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So I would basically

try to market the dogs.

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I would come back in, we'd sit in the

lobby for a little bit, you know, the

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dog just sit next to me and people come

in and go, oh, that's a really nice dog.

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Well, his dog's available, you know,

so they were, the joke kind of became,

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after a while, uh, I need Randy to walk

me today 'cause I want to get adopted.

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So 2014 went, you know, pretty fine

and, like I told, you know, the judge, I

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said I was just out there for the dogs.

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I was there to walk the dogs.

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I love dogs, have dogs and just

to get them out and help out, you

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know, any way I could out there.

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Um, but I didn't want anything to

do with board or control because

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I knew a little bit of the history

in this county and that it's always

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been kind of a bit of a crap show.

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So it was like, I don't want

to get into any of that.

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I'm just here for the dogs.

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Erica Tyler: Tops has a, a long

history, even before it was Tops of

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corruption and, and bad management.

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And it's always had this sort

of gray cloud over its head.

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Um, the Executive Director that was

serving there had her whole family working

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there, which, um, I know the board and my

grandmother had concerns of like, nepotism

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and things, you know, to have your entire

family on the payroll and maybe not having

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them do quite as much as everyone else.

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So, uh.

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Ironically, the day that, uh, that

executive director walked out was

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the day after Tops was robbed.

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Um, and the safe got smashed on

the floor and, uh, the current

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executive director actually threw

me and another employee under the

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bus and thought that we had done it.

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I was like, I didn't do that.

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I was at home in bed, you know?

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Chris Dewitt: My name is

Christopher Anthony Dewitt.

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I served as board president and

as a board member with TOPS,

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roughly a couple of years.

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Steffen i met originally in Union

County some years before that,

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working with the shelter

here, walking dogs.

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And then, his name came up

very often in the dog world.

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And I got to know Steffen when he came

to serve, uh, and work at TOPS of Ohio.

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He, uh, initially just

served as a board member.

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Uh, we asked him, or I did,

I asked Steffen to come on.

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And, uh, then secondly, when we had people

leave, uh, we needed, uh, a leader, a

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director, and I asked Steffen to do that.

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Well, Steffen had, you know,

in the dog world, it's a very

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close, you know, group of people.

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Uh, he had a good name, um, especially

with the bully breeds and unfortunately

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where we're at in Logan County, we

have many, many pit bulls and, uh,

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that's how I knew Steffen He had a

name of being able to, uh, work well

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with the dogs that were special needs.

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He had the ability, you know, to

retrain them and so that they could

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potentially have a, have a home again.

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We had, um, uh, an implosion at, uh, at

Tops and, uh, we lost approximately five

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or six staff members that were there.

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Um, we were reeling and I pretty much

begged Steffen buddy, please help us.

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And, uh, and that's how he came

about with the, with that position.

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Randy Schmidt: So as 2015 started,

they had a big board meeting

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and, uh, there were some issues

with the, the previous hierarchy.

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And, there was a change made in

that particular board meeting.

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Not very well done either.

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So at that point, the Executive

Director was kind of out.

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Steffen I believe, was

already on the board,

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well, he was the logical person

that was close by to put in

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as the Executive Director.

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Supposedly gonna be for about three

months just to find somebody else.

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Chris Dewitt: Most of the people that

served on the board were just mom and dad.

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Like my wife and I, we love animals.

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And, uh, we were not savvy with

what it was about, to run, you

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know, a facility like that.

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Steffen had that expertise and so we all

leaned on him, you know, for direction.

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It was a full-time, uh, job.

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But I understood he had a son and he

and I had talked about having some

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leeway with, you know, time, uh,

to be able to take care of his son.

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And of course I said, we can accommodate

that, you know, we will work that out.

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But it was a full-time job.

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Randy Schmidt: I didn't know him from Boo.

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I didn't, you know, I didn't much

care what all went on, uh, heard.

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It was pretty nasty.

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And, you know, I would come in

to walk a dog and say, okay,

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so who's, who's in charge now?

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Who's doing what, you know.

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I would hear his name as

now the Executive Director.

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And everything went along until,

um, well 2015 was, was crazy.

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And at one point in June we

voted to add board members.

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He asked me at that time, you know,

Hey, you know, we need to fill some

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of these board seats and so forth.

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All right.

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You know, I'm thinking, uh, with my

history at, at, at Honda and management

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and so forth, and so maybe I can help

out a little bit and do something,

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help get things turned around and,

you know, so we filled a number of

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seats and that was in June of 2015.

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I said I would serve as a Vice President,

but Chris Dewitt you need to be the

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president 'cause I don't have the time and

I don't have the desire to be president.

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Erica Tyler: And, uh, ironically

being robbed is what led to Steffen

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becoming our interim director because

he stood in after that, that Executive

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Director and her family left.

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So it's kind of, it's a

little ironic in hindsight.

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I was thinking about that

today and I was like, O!

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Dr. G:

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Did you have any interaction with Steffen

before he became executive director?

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Erica Tyler: Um, not in person.

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Um, I did follow him on social media

because when I'd moved back, my grandma

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was like, there's this guy, you know,

he's helping severe behavioral cases.

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He's really advocating for pit

bulls and, you know, she, she spoke

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fondly of him, which, you know, I,

I'm always, I took my grandma's word

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for it, for good reason, you know?

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Dr. G:

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How were things when he first started

as executive director at TOPS?

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Erica Tyler: I, I would

call it optimistic.

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I mean, we were working on making

a lot of big changes for the

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shelter, a lot of needed changes.

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There was a lot of remodeling going on.

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As you might recall,

we had Lowe's come in.

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You put the, we did the cleaner.

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You know, uh, I think our animals were

more taken care of, uh, medically.

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And, , there was a cleaner facility.

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We remodeled that trailer out there.

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Scott's Lawn came out and volunteered

for a day along with, the

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big grant we got from Lowe's.

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And I think we were all optimistic

that maybe this was the change

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that our shelter needed after such

a long line of bad management.

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And I think we were all just fooled.

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Randy Schmidt: I got sucked in by the

guy as much as everybody else did.

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He was, seemed very professional.

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He seemed very calm, not get excited.

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Dr. G:

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When he took over, like before he

took over, he reached out to me and

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said, Hey, like, well, because we

had been joking about doing like

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a shelter makeover type thing.

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Erica Tyler: Right?

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Like Extreme Home Makeover.

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Shelter edition.

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Shelter Edition.

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Dr. G:

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Exactly.

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And that's actually I think

what we were calling it, right?

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And it was like, let's go to shelters

that need help and then help 'em with all

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the things from structural to management

of the animals and health and adoption

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and spay neuter and all that stuff.

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So, so yeah.

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So it was, I thought that he was doing a

really good job at the beginning because

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he brought me in and everybody was so

welcoming and so open to the changes.

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Um, right.

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And yeah, I mean, we got that cleaning

solution donated for free by the company,

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which is a really expensive machine, but

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Erica Tyler: it's

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Dr. G:

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big

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everybody thought that they were,

you know, they were doing this for

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the shelter and yeah that Lowe's

thing, they came in and completely

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remodeled that shelter to make it into

kind of like a little mini clinic.

222

00:13:17,253 --> 00:13:18,543

Erica Tyler: Yeah, yeah.

223

00:13:18,543 --> 00:13:24,918

It, that trailer was tailored for doctors,

uh, on your staff to come do intakes.

224

00:13:24,918 --> 00:13:27,228

And I helped with some of

those intakes and it was great.

225

00:13:27,228 --> 00:13:31,038

You know, that trailer was a big

old piece of crap before we touched

226

00:13:31,038 --> 00:13:35,058

it, and it was unusable and it

was mostly used for, for storage.

227

00:13:35,703 --> 00:13:38,433

So that was, I mean, that

was an optimistic time.

228

00:13:38,433 --> 00:13:39,993

I think we were all really excited.

229

00:13:40,053 --> 00:13:45,273

I mean, I know myself, once you

came in, um, I obviously had zero

230

00:13:45,273 --> 00:13:48,843

veterinary experience that up until

that point, you know, I learned a lot

231

00:13:48,843 --> 00:13:52,953

just from being at the shelter and we

learned a lot of behavioral things and

232

00:13:52,953 --> 00:13:54,193

things we could do to help the dogs.

233

00:13:54,213 --> 00:13:56,103

So at that point it was good.

234

00:13:57,213 --> 00:14:01,683

DrG: I remember when I started going

up there to look at the shelter, uh,

235

00:14:01,683 --> 00:14:04,683

one of the first things that he had

me do was look at three dogs that

236

00:14:04,683 --> 00:14:08,673

had been at the shelter for a really

long time and that were aggressive

237

00:14:08,673 --> 00:14:10,503

and only a few people could handle.

238

00:14:10,503 --> 00:14:14,583

And I wanna say that Chuck was the only

one that could walk at least one of them.

239

00:14:15,243 --> 00:14:18,963

Um, because, and they had been

there for at least three years.

240

00:14:18,963 --> 00:14:20,793

It was like a really long period of time.

241

00:14:21,363 --> 00:14:24,603

And it was kind of like a sad

situation because at that point we're

242

00:14:24,603 --> 00:14:28,533

talking about warehousing and the

dogs are not gonna get any better.

243

00:14:28,533 --> 00:14:28,743

Right?

244

00:14:28,743 --> 00:14:31,533

Like, you have a dog that is, is yes.

245

00:14:32,328 --> 00:14:35,418

You know, like losing his

mind inside of this run.

246

00:14:35,418 --> 00:14:35,478

Yeah.

247

00:14:35,478 --> 00:14:37,878

And it lives in that run all the time.

248

00:14:37,938 --> 00:14:39,348

And I can only see one person.

249

00:14:39,348 --> 00:14:39,438

Right.

250

00:14:39,948 --> 00:14:45,588

And when I went to the shelter,

he pulled me aside and said, Hey,

251

00:14:45,588 --> 00:14:47,838

these dogs need, need euthanized.

252

00:14:47,838 --> 00:14:50,088

And he explained to me

the reasoning behind it.

253

00:14:50,093 --> 00:14:50,123

Right.

254

00:14:50,268 --> 00:14:51,228

And I said, absolutely.

255

00:14:51,228 --> 00:14:52,248

I completely agree.

256

00:14:52,248 --> 00:14:56,088

Like it's, it's not fair to

keep these dogs like this.

257

00:14:56,538 --> 00:15:01,008

And then he exactly said, well, but

the staff is really attached to the

258

00:15:01,008 --> 00:15:04,998

dogs and I don't think that they

understand about euthanasia, so I

259

00:15:04,998 --> 00:15:06,648

need you to talk to them about it.

260

00:15:07,278 --> 00:15:12,678

And I went in and I pulled everybody

over and I explained everything to

261

00:15:12,678 --> 00:15:15,108

them, and everybody was fine with it.

262

00:15:15,198 --> 00:15:20,268

And, and to a, to an extent, some of

them were, how I say, I don't wanna

263

00:15:20,268 --> 00:15:23,748

say happy because they were not happy

that the dogs were being euthanized.

264

00:15:24,048 --> 00:15:30,138

But it was that relief that that poor

dog was not gonna be in a kennel.

265

00:15:30,138 --> 00:15:30,198

Yeah.

266

00:15:30,513 --> 00:15:31,263

All the time.

267

00:15:31,263 --> 00:15:32,193

And a tiny kennel.

268

00:15:32,193 --> 00:15:35,373

We're not talking about a

big kennel in, in a tiny run.

269

00:15:35,378 --> 00:15:35,478

Right.

270

00:15:36,078 --> 00:15:40,863

And, and I fee and I thought,

they don't have a problem with it.

271

00:15:40,923 --> 00:15:43,533

Like they're not, they're

not upset about it.

272

00:15:43,533 --> 00:15:45,543

So what was this whole thing about?

273

00:15:45,903 --> 00:15:51,003

And, and I realized that it's because

he wanted it to be my decision.

274

00:15:51,303 --> 00:15:51,633

Right.

275

00:15:51,633 --> 00:15:52,833

Not his decision.

276

00:15:53,283 --> 00:15:54,903

Because he can fix any dog.

277

00:15:54,903 --> 00:15:55,143

Exactly.

278

00:15:55,473 --> 00:15:56,433

So yes,

279

00:15:56,493 --> 00:15:56,673

he,

280

00:15:56,943 --> 00:15:58,533

DrG: he didn't make that decision.

281

00:15:58,743 --> 00:16:01,053

Realistically, they're not his failures.

282

00:16:01,263 --> 00:16:04,203

If anything, it's my failures

or my recommendations.

283

00:16:04,203 --> 00:16:04,293

Right.

284

00:16:04,623 --> 00:16:08,283

And that's something that I

didn't learn until a lot later.

285

00:16:08,516 --> 00:16:10,586

Erica Tyler: I actually remember

two of the three dogs names.

286

00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:12,981

We had Devlin, which was like a, a

287

00:16:13,976 --> 00:16:15,266

a blue nose pit bull.

288

00:16:15,266 --> 00:16:16,226

It was a gray pit bull.

289

00:16:16,826 --> 00:16:20,246

Um, Moose, he was like a black

and white stocky pit bull.

290

00:16:20,846 --> 00:16:24,656

And I'll tell you, I don't remember

the third dog's name, but those two

291

00:16:24,656 --> 00:16:29,186

dogs that I mentioned particularly

had to go in particular cages outside.

292

00:16:29,756 --> 00:16:33,836

'cause if you put them in, like your

average, like pop-up crate, those dogs

293

00:16:33,896 --> 00:16:39,656

would walk that cage, destroy the the

tray inside of it, walk the cage over to

294

00:16:39,656 --> 00:16:41,486

another dog and fight it through the cage.

295

00:16:41,816 --> 00:16:43,286

I mean, that, that is.

296

00:16:43,646 --> 00:16:46,076

I didn't understand quite at

the time, I don't think, or

297

00:16:46,076 --> 00:16:47,276

maybe I hadn't thought about it.

298

00:16:47,306 --> 00:16:50,186

Had I thought about it, I think

I would've, you know, understood.

299

00:16:50,186 --> 00:16:53,336

But when you, you talked to

us about it, it made me think

300

00:16:53,336 --> 00:16:54,956

a little bit more about it.

301

00:16:54,956 --> 00:17:01,146

And I mean, Devlin had, you know, happy

tail so bad from being in those cement

302

00:17:01,146 --> 00:17:05,506

cages and moose did get walked by one

particular volunteer pretty often,

303

00:17:05,506 --> 00:17:09,473

but that is no life for a dog to live

for, you know, four to five years.

304

00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:14,089

I remember doing it, I remember sitting

with Chuck and us sitting out in the shed

305

00:17:14,089 --> 00:17:15,589

and being like, we did the right thing.

306

00:17:15,589 --> 00:17:19,669

You know, like I, I remember that day

very clearly, even being so, so long ago.

307

00:17:21,194 --> 00:17:25,094

DrG: He would go to these shelters

and like Franklin County Dog Shelter,

308

00:17:25,094 --> 00:17:28,334

and even when he got Remi, like

he would go to shelters and accuse

309

00:17:28,334 --> 00:17:33,254

them of not working with the dogs

and just wanting to euthanize them.

310

00:17:33,254 --> 00:17:35,624

And he would allegedly rescue them.

311

00:17:35,924 --> 00:17:40,034

Did he ever work with the dogs at Tops?

312

00:17:40,815 --> 00:17:42,915

Randy Schmidt: I never saw him

work with any dogs at Tops.

313

00:17:43,275 --> 00:17:47,145

I'd try to get out there at least

twice a week, maybe three days a

314

00:17:47,145 --> 00:17:51,255

week, and, you know, and I would get

them out and just play and run and

315

00:17:51,255 --> 00:17:52,785

throw snowballs with ' em and stuff.

316

00:17:52,785 --> 00:17:53,955

Like, sit under a tree.

317

00:17:53,955 --> 00:17:56,625

I've got one where I'm sitting

underneath a, a tree out there

318

00:17:56,625 --> 00:17:59,745

with 'em and just let them be dogs.

319

00:17:59,745 --> 00:18:05,055

You know, I never, I never saw

him do that with any of the dogs.

320

00:18:05,055 --> 00:18:10,965

I saw him observe some dogs, supposedly,

uh, that there was some questions on.

321

00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:15,960

But I didn't ever see him

really do anything with, with

322

00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,610

training, any of them or anything.

323

00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:22,020

Everybody kinda acted like he was

this dog whisperer that, you know,

324

00:18:22,050 --> 00:18:27,330

knew all about dogs and any pits

and any others that had questions.

325

00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:33,930

Um, he's kind of the guy that decides

whether they're retrainable or not.

326

00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:34,501

Dr. G:

327

00:18:34,501 --> 00:18:35,880

Because that was his jam.

328

00:18:35,970 --> 00:18:41,160

His jam was taking a dog that is

deemed unadoptable and aggressive

329

00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:42,930

and then rehabilitating it.

330

00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,440

And I'm, I'm of the big belief

that you start at home, right?

331

00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,950

You'd have to take care of your home

before you can help somebody else.

332

00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:50,460

Mm-hmm.

333

00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:53,250

And it doesn't feel like he

was taking care of his home.

334

00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:58,950

Erica Tyler: I, uh, I wrote that down too

because he came in talking this big game

335

00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:03,090

and there's one particular case, ginger,

I don't know if you remember this dog.

336

00:19:03,090 --> 00:19:08,070

He was like a, a red mix of

sorts, but this dog was wild.

337

00:19:08,550 --> 00:19:12,060

Um, when Chuck and I would try to get him

out of his run, he had one of those big

338

00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:14,310

double runs in the, in one of the kennels.

339

00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:18,360

He would like snap at our hands

and we couldn't get him out.

340

00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:22,320

But, we begged Steffen like,

please come help us with this dog.

341

00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:22,710

Please.

342

00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:24,360

We, we really wanna help him.

343

00:19:24,420 --> 00:19:26,790

You know, Chuck, and I'll do

whatever you tell us to do,

344

00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:28,590

but, you know, we need advice.

345

00:19:28,590 --> 00:19:29,490

We don't know what to do.

346

00:19:30,180 --> 00:19:35,260

And I don't recall who it was, but

somebody was in town visiting Steffen,

347

00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,240

another trainer, and he was at the shelter

and he said, you know, guys, he said,

348

00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,960

you take that, that leash, that slip,

lead and stick a hot dog in the middle.

349

00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,920

He'll put his, his face through it,

and then you, you know, you loop him.

350

00:19:47,550 --> 00:19:52,470

We did that, we did it every day for

probably close three to four months,

351

00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:57,750

and by the end of it, we could get, uh,

ginger out, like a, like a gentleman.

352

00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:03,780

Um, and then Chuck started taking Ginger

home and I have a photo, I actually just

353

00:20:03,780 --> 00:20:07,530

ran across it before our interview of

Ginger standing about three feet from

354

00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:11,760

another dog, which he couldn't do, you

know, previously he was just unsocialized

355

00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,170

and he needed a little guidance.

356

00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:16,831

Um, but I was thinking about

those other three dogs.

357

00:20:18,270 --> 00:20:21,510

You know, why, why didn't

you a at least try?

358

00:20:21,870 --> 00:20:27,360

Instead, he gravitated towards a dog named

Codley, who I know lives in a happy home.

359

00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:31,260

He's all gray, muzzled, you know, he's,

he's an old man living his best life and

360

00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:36,840

he gravitated towards Codley, who was also

a longtime resident, but couldn't be more

361

00:20:36,990 --> 00:20:39,360

dog friendly and friendly towards people.

362

00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,470

Robyn Haines: Let's talk about

who you brought with you today.

363

00:20:41,515 --> 00:20:41,965

Steffen Baldwin: Sure.

364

00:20:41,965 --> 00:20:43,125

So this is Codley.

365

00:20:43,425 --> 00:20:46,525

Um, and Codley came from

the TOP of Ohio Pet Shelter.

366

00:20:46,705 --> 00:20:49,090

That's one of the rural

shelters that both Dr.

367

00:20:49,090 --> 00:20:51,745

Gonzalez with the Rascal Animal

Hospital and my organization

368

00:20:51,745 --> 00:20:53,215

with ACT Ohio help out.

369

00:20:53,215 --> 00:20:57,175

We do a lot across the state,

mostly in rural areas, just trying

370

00:20:57,175 --> 00:20:58,435

to help animals wherever we can.

371

00:20:58,435 --> 00:21:01,555

And there's a lot of struggling

shelters, very small rural shelters

372

00:21:01,585 --> 00:21:06,175

and TOP of Ohio Pet Shelter is one of

them, and Codley just came from there.

373

00:21:06,175 --> 00:21:08,485

He actually spent three out of four years.

374

00:21:08,485 --> 00:21:09,205

He's four years old.

375

00:21:09,205 --> 00:21:10,585

He spent the first three years

376

00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:11,920

at the shelter.

377

00:21:12,625 --> 00:21:13,975

He's only been out for a short while.

378

00:21:13,975 --> 00:21:15,595

He developed some skin problems.

379

00:21:15,775 --> 00:21:19,555

The hospital is treating skin problems

and we're working on rehabilitating

380

00:21:19,555 --> 00:21:22,525

him and getting him used to being

out of a shelter because three years

381

00:21:22,525 --> 00:21:24,205

is a long time to be in a shelter.

382

00:21:24,415 --> 00:21:26,035

And, uh, he's doing great so far.

383

00:21:26,035 --> 00:21:28,195

Things are a little new

to him, new experiences.

384

00:21:28,375 --> 00:21:29,815

First time he is been on tv, of course.

385

00:21:29,815 --> 00:21:30,145

Robyn Haines: Right.

386

00:21:30,175 --> 00:21:32,095

This is his debut, so

he is a little nervous.

387

00:21:32,095 --> 00:21:34,615

He's gotta sniff around, make

sure he knows what's going on.

388

00:21:34,615 --> 00:21:34,705

Yeah,

389

00:21:34,705 --> 00:21:36,745

Steffen Baldwin: I figured he

spent three quarters of his life

390

00:21:36,985 --> 00:21:40,225

basically in a, in a rural shelter,

in a high stress environment.

391

00:21:40,450 --> 00:21:44,080

So, uh, he's doing fantastic

for, for that kind of experience.

392

00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,800

That's just one of the many things that

Rascal Charities does and that we partner

393

00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,420

with Rascal, with ACT Ohio to do is just

to help animals in need across rural Ohio.

394

00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,500

Erica Tyler: So he showed off

Codley on his social media.

395

00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:58,080

I have a picture of it somewhere, and.

396

00:21:59,445 --> 00:22:00,975

Oh, I helped this dog from TOPS.

397

00:22:00,975 --> 00:22:02,955

You didn't help that dog

from TOPS do anything.

398

00:22:02,955 --> 00:22:04,275

He was already a nice dog.

399

00:22:04,695 --> 00:22:09,705

You know, and I, I wonder a lot

of times, you know, now it's so

400

00:22:09,705 --> 00:22:12,930

obvious, but, hindsight's 2020.

401

00:22:14,058 --> 00:22:14,059

Dr. G:

402

00:22:14,059 --> 00:22:18,648

What would you say was, were the first

signs that there was something not okay?

403

00:22:20,328 --> 00:22:20,718

Erica Tyler: I.

404

00:22:21,993 --> 00:22:26,043

I feel like I had a special in to

knowledge just because grandma was

405

00:22:26,043 --> 00:22:29,643

so close to so many board members,

which maybe isn't right, but I, I

406

00:22:29,643 --> 00:22:34,743

heard whispers of Steffen acting like

he was working more time than he was.

407

00:22:35,438 --> 00:22:38,348

Chris Dewitt: It started out pretty good.

408

00:22:38,618 --> 00:22:44,048

Uh, he was showing up, uh, but uh,

shortly, I'd say within a a month's

409

00:22:44,048 --> 00:22:46,918

period of time, there were more time away.

410

00:22:47,148 --> 00:22:51,418

I was being called at home myself

stating that Steffen's not here.

411

00:22:51,418 --> 00:22:54,388

There's no one in, in the

office to run the office.

412

00:22:54,388 --> 00:23:00,988

My wife and I, uh, would come

in and, uh, I run the show, uh,

413

00:23:01,018 --> 00:23:05,938

basically with, uh, myself and other

board members that were coming in.

414

00:23:06,538 --> 00:23:07,168

Melissa Chase: Okay.

415

00:23:07,168 --> 00:23:09,628

So you, you started getting

calls from employees.

416

00:23:09,898 --> 00:23:13,378

How frequently were you getting

calls to come down to the shelter?

417

00:23:13,618 --> 00:23:14,098

Chris Dewitt: Daily.

418

00:23:15,088 --> 00:23:18,148

Melissa Chase: Were you there

at the shelter on a daily basis?

419

00:23:18,358 --> 00:23:19,138

Chris Dewitt: Yes.

420

00:23:21,268 --> 00:23:24,148

Melissa Chase: And when you came to

the shelter, when Steffen wasn't there.

421

00:23:25,153 --> 00:23:27,293

You know, how typically

how long were you staying?

422

00:23:28,313 --> 00:23:32,308

Chris Dewitt: Uh, staying from,

uh, you know, three to four hours.

423

00:23:32,518 --> 00:23:35,488

Uh, sometimes all day

for the entire shift.

424

00:23:35,788 --> 00:23:37,558

Melissa Chase: How difficult

was it to get ahold of Steffen

425

00:23:37,858 --> 00:23:39,328

when he was not at a facility?

426

00:23:41,878 --> 00:23:42,598

Chris Dewitt: Difficult.

427

00:23:42,803 --> 00:23:45,538

He would not return calls many times.

428

00:23:45,538 --> 00:23:50,878

And then when I would talk to him,

um, it just, he, he would be evasive.

429

00:23:52,583 --> 00:23:58,158

He would show up eventually midday and,

uh, you know, be around for a few hours.

430

00:23:58,158 --> 00:24:00,018

Sometimes he would stay until closing.

431

00:24:00,018 --> 00:24:02,238

Other times he would leave

after a couple hours.

432

00:24:02,749 --> 00:24:05,689

He had, um, his own, um,

433

00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:15,779

ACT Ohio and, uh, workers had come

to me and told me that he was doing

434

00:24:16,769 --> 00:24:22,409

ACT Ohio work while being paid

on our, um, you know, time clock.

435

00:24:23,309 --> 00:24:26,789

And, uh, those were things that

we would discuss also, that, you

436

00:24:26,789 --> 00:24:31,169

know, when you're here, you know,

please do what we need done.

437

00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:35,139

Erica Tyler: So the board

wanted him to start clocking in.

438

00:24:35,949 --> 00:24:41,469

And I, as a joke, one day was like, I have

a question for Steffen, like, where is he?

439

00:24:42,804 --> 00:24:45,234

They're like, he's supposed to

be here like 45 minutes ago.

440

00:24:45,234 --> 00:24:46,374

I'm like, well, he's not.

441

00:24:46,824 --> 00:24:50,784

So I went in and grabbed that

poster board of him that says only

442

00:24:50,784 --> 00:24:53,334

a punk would hurt a dog or a cat.

443

00:24:53,394 --> 00:24:56,154

And I put it in his just chair and

I was like, where are you boss?

444

00:24:56,154 --> 00:24:57,114

I've got a question for you.

445

00:24:57,114 --> 00:24:59,784

And I sent it like, I think

I posted it on Facebook even.

446

00:24:59,784 --> 00:25:02,094

I think it shows up with

my memories time to time.

447

00:25:02,544 --> 00:25:02,994

So.

448

00:25:03,474 --> 00:25:08,964

I mean, after that initial optimism,

he was there less and less and less.

449

00:25:08,964 --> 00:25:13,074

And when he was, he was working on ACT

stuff or he was on the phone and you know,

450

00:25:13,074 --> 00:25:16,524

there's a time we were so short staffed,

but Chuck and I were working seven days

451

00:25:16,524 --> 00:25:17,874

a week for like three or four months.

452

00:25:18,924 --> 00:25:22,824

And he was like, oh, I'll come, I'll

come do the cats in the garage, or you

453

00:25:22,824 --> 00:25:24,714

know, I'll come help you clean kennels.

454

00:25:24,714 --> 00:25:26,304

'cause you know, Chuck's off or whatever.

455

00:25:26,304 --> 00:25:29,784

And if he'd show up, he'd be

on his phone or be in the way.

456

00:25:29,784 --> 00:25:30,414

And it's like.

457

00:25:31,254 --> 00:25:33,414

Why don't you just stay outta here?

458

00:25:33,414 --> 00:25:34,884

You're, you're too much on my way.

459

00:25:34,884 --> 00:25:38,454

And I think from that point on,

there really started to be some

460

00:25:38,454 --> 00:25:41,784

issues with Steffen, you know,

between him especially and the board.

461

00:25:41,784 --> 00:25:44,724

But he was just not there to do his job.

462

00:25:46,174 --> 00:25:49,534

James Renner: Today, as I said, I

received more documents, including

463

00:25:49,534 --> 00:25:54,124

this, uh, autobiography that

Steffen started writing about 2011.

464

00:25:55,574 --> 00:25:59,384

"I would make an appearance at work,

tell the staff I had an offsite meeting

465

00:25:59,684 --> 00:26:04,034

and obligations, and would go home and

smoke pot while I watched old sci-fi

466

00:26:04,034 --> 00:26:09,204

reruns or spent hours passively looking

at porn online and masturbating."

467

00:26:11,424 --> 00:26:14,235

Erica Tyler: Steffen had a huge

opportunity to, if he knew so much

468

00:26:14,235 --> 00:26:19,995

about animal behavior, to teach us

as a, as a staff, a lot of things.

469

00:26:20,655 --> 00:26:23,415

I think he like tried to tell

us how to break up a dog fight.

470

00:26:23,415 --> 00:26:26,535

But we had already been doing that

because we had all these, you know,

471

00:26:26,595 --> 00:26:32,355

cuckoo for Coco Puff's dogs and he had

a huge opportunity to, to share his

472

00:26:32,355 --> 00:26:36,495

knowledge and, and teach us things and

training and, you know, we could send

473

00:26:36,495 --> 00:26:38,955

dogs out the door, maybe more dogs that

474

00:26:39,855 --> 00:26:44,325

were more well behaved than

they were, but I don't recall

475

00:26:44,325 --> 00:26:45,705

him ever teaching me anything.

476

00:26:45,705 --> 00:26:48,165

His buddy that was a trainer

taught Chuck and I something.

477

00:26:48,975 --> 00:26:55,155

But everything I've learned was from when

you started coming with your staff to the,

478

00:26:55,245 --> 00:27:00,225

to the TOPS and then the following five

to six years that I've been at Rascal.

479

00:27:00,225 --> 00:27:02,775

And you know, now I serve on

the board and I'm still somewhat

480

00:27:02,775 --> 00:27:04,515

involved with, with Rascal things.

481

00:27:06,135 --> 00:27:07,785

He, he didn't teach us anything.

482

00:27:07,785 --> 00:27:13,305

We, we learned everything from,

from Rascal and zero outta 10 stars.

483

00:27:13,772 --> 00:27:14,492

. Zero outta 10.

484

00:27:14,582 --> 00:27:15,962

I can't, can't recommend.

485

00:27:17,008 --> 00:27:17,009

Dr. G:

486

00:27:17,009 --> 00:27:17,428

Yeah.

487

00:27:17,578 --> 00:27:21,508

And you know, we started doing, one

of the things that we started doing to

488

00:27:21,508 --> 00:27:24,568

be make the shelter more progressive

was doing the spay and neuter.

489

00:27:24,568 --> 00:27:24,658

Right.

490

00:27:25,168 --> 00:27:29,848

And one of the things that we were doing

was we were getting sponsors for the

491

00:27:29,848 --> 00:27:31,378

dogs to get spay and neuter for free.

492

00:27:31,513 --> 00:27:31,603

Yep.

493

00:27:31,843 --> 00:27:35,833

Which was supposed to bring the shelter

money and get the, the shelter animals

494

00:27:35,923 --> 00:27:41,053

spayed and neuter for free, and then bring

the shelter money for like admin fees

495

00:27:41,053 --> 00:27:42,883

for hosting us and that kind of stuff.

496

00:27:43,423 --> 00:27:43,663

Right?

497

00:27:43,663 --> 00:27:47,593

And everything was set and

it's the same setup that we do

498

00:27:47,623 --> 00:27:49,123

everywhere throughout the state.

499

00:27:49,513 --> 00:27:54,613

And yet it was not working out and I was

being told the shelter's losing money.

500

00:27:54,693 --> 00:27:57,513

Erica Tyler: Well, I do remember

I was the one that made the little

501

00:27:57,513 --> 00:28:00,693

pictures for the sponsors for the

cork board and the Facebook page.

502

00:28:00,693 --> 00:28:04,353

And um, I remember it

being a really good idea.

503

00:28:04,353 --> 00:28:08,043

I mean, the idea of working at

Rascal at that point was just

504

00:28:08,043 --> 00:28:09,483

like, Ooh, that looks cool.

505

00:28:09,483 --> 00:28:11,613

But I remember you guys

coming once a month.

506

00:28:11,613 --> 00:28:15,063

I remember the pure chaos in the

shelter 'cause we had dog cages

507

00:28:15,063 --> 00:28:18,093

lining that long hallway and, um.

508

00:28:19,458 --> 00:28:22,728

I don't remember a ton, obviously

financially, 'cause I wasn't

509

00:28:22,728 --> 00:28:24,048

involved in the finances.

510

00:28:24,528 --> 00:28:28,788

But I do re remember hearing whispers

of, you know, we're losing money on this.

511

00:28:28,788 --> 00:28:30,378

Like, we can't do this as often.

512

00:28:30,378 --> 00:28:35,238

And I, I, that's never made sense to me,

especially now that I have the insight

513

00:28:35,238 --> 00:28:40,068

of how our, you know, the Rascal clinics

work and you know what the bottom line is

514

00:28:40,068 --> 00:28:42,018

as far as what, what we need to be there.

515

00:28:42,018 --> 00:28:48,318

And I mean, if you tack admin fee

of $5 on every public dog that comes

516

00:28:48,318 --> 00:28:51,363

in, you can get there pretty quick.

517

00:28:51,453 --> 00:28:52,683

You know, it's easy.

518

00:28:53,583 --> 00:28:53,584

Dr. G:

519

00:28:53,584 --> 00:28:53,853

Yeah.

520

00:28:53,853 --> 00:28:58,143

And you know, again, it's like the same

setup that we do everywhere that we go.

521

00:28:58,143 --> 00:28:58,233

Right?

522

00:28:58,323 --> 00:29:03,363

And we're going to areas that, you know,

don't have a lot of resources, that don't

523

00:29:03,363 --> 00:29:06,393

have a lot of, a lot of funds, um Right.

524

00:29:06,753 --> 00:29:11,103

And people are able to make a

difference in their communities.

525

00:29:11,808 --> 00:29:16,608

Somewhere, uh, that, you know, especially

with the beautiful shelter that Tops was

526

00:29:16,608 --> 00:29:20,178

and the great location and everything

else, and the need from the community,

527

00:29:20,208 --> 00:29:24,118

and not just the need for the community,

but the, how can I say, the sponsorship

528

00:29:24,138 --> 00:29:27,228

from the community for these dogs

that needed fixed at the shelter?

529

00:29:27,228 --> 00:29:27,318

Right?

530

00:29:27,648 --> 00:29:32,388

Like I would remember that I would

post that list of like nine dogs

531

00:29:32,388 --> 00:29:35,748

that needed sponsored and it would

be filled out within an hour.

532

00:29:35,928 --> 00:29:38,388

Like somebody wanted to

sponsor that dog to get fixed.

533

00:29:38,388 --> 00:29:39,408

Erica Tyler: Full, full.

534

00:29:39,408 --> 00:29:44,718

And to this day, the need is so

high here that our clinics, when

535

00:29:44,718 --> 00:29:48,948

we are able to have them here in

Logan County, fill up in days and.

536

00:29:49,383 --> 00:29:50,403

The demand is high.

537

00:29:50,403 --> 00:29:51,153

It's still high.

538

00:29:51,213 --> 00:29:53,853

I think it'll be high

for a really long time.

539

00:29:53,943 --> 00:29:59,133

Um, but yeah, I think we had

the right idea, but I think that

540

00:29:59,133 --> 00:30:04,443

maybe he was screwing it up from

the inside as he seems to do.

541

00:30:05,043 --> 00:30:05,373

Yeah.

542

00:30:05,893 --> 00:30:07,843

Melissa Chase: Would you state

your name for the record, please?

543

00:30:08,203 --> 00:30:08,803

Shelby DeLong: Shelby DeLong.

544

00:30:09,763 --> 00:30:11,983

Uh, previously Shelby Ramsey.

545

00:30:12,923 --> 00:30:18,263

I was hired there as the bookkeeper

when I was finishing college

546

00:30:18,263 --> 00:30:20,153

or close to finishing college.

547

00:30:20,328 --> 00:30:22,788

I did everything financial based.

548

00:30:22,878 --> 00:30:29,008

When I was hired, they had recently

experienced fraudulent activity from the,

549

00:30:29,638 --> 00:30:32,282

the previous people that were running it.

550

00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:37,869

So they were just trying to sort out

all of the financials in general.

551

00:30:37,929 --> 00:30:39,849

Um, and they just needed some help.

552

00:30:40,174 --> 00:30:43,384

It wasn't a great financial situation.

553

00:30:43,954 --> 00:30:46,024

There was stacks of paper everywhere.

554

00:30:46,124 --> 00:30:49,994

I was focused on sorting out and

understanding how much it cost to operate,

555

00:30:50,084 --> 00:30:54,224

um, and understand what outstanding

bills they had and outstanding debt,

556

00:30:54,704 --> 00:30:59,354

um, to help make everybody aware of

the financial situation and then,

557

00:30:59,534 --> 00:31:04,574

um, understand it, what it would

cost for us to continue to operate.

558

00:31:05,084 --> 00:31:08,564

Um, when I started sorting that out,

I found that like the gas bill hadn't

559

00:31:08,564 --> 00:31:11,054

been paid in a really long time.

560

00:31:11,174 --> 00:31:13,484

Um, they were getting

ready to turn it off.

561

00:31:13,974 --> 00:31:15,324

So we had to sort that out.

562

00:31:15,324 --> 00:31:22,744

During that time they had, I wanna say

the company was called maybe Brentlinger

563

00:31:22,764 --> 00:31:24,684

and Associates doing their payroll.

564

00:31:24,684 --> 00:31:30,174

And how that worked is they processed

the payroll, um, and then they

565

00:31:30,174 --> 00:31:36,154

would withhold the taxes, child

support, things of that nature.

566

00:31:36,154 --> 00:31:40,444

So the withholdings

from the, the paychecks.

567

00:31:41,014 --> 00:31:47,644

And then we would, we were supposed

to write checks, um, for those

568

00:31:47,644 --> 00:31:50,914

bills and send them with like

the slip that they enclosed.

569

00:31:51,814 --> 00:31:55,774

Um, and then that wasn't being done, and

that hadn't been done in a long time.

570

00:31:56,534 --> 00:31:58,484

Melissa Chase: Would you state

your name for the record, please?

571

00:31:58,514 --> 00:31:58,934

Danielle Ramsey: Danielle

572

00:31:58,934 --> 00:31:59,354

Melissa Chase: Ramsey.

573

00:31:59,754 --> 00:32:02,154

How did you become treasurer

of the organization?

574

00:32:02,634 --> 00:32:05,934

Danielle Ramsey: Um, I was the only

one on the board with experience

575

00:32:05,934 --> 00:32:09,114

as running the bookkeeper, so

I volunteered for the position.

576

00:32:09,744 --> 00:32:13,374

Melissa Chase: I know you were sworn

in as a board member in August of 2015.

577

00:32:13,374 --> 00:32:14,724

When did you start as a treasurer?

578

00:32:15,594 --> 00:32:17,034

Danielle Ramsey: Um, around September.

579

00:32:17,034 --> 00:32:18,054

September 15.

580

00:32:19,014 --> 00:32:22,164

Melissa Chase: So at that time,

who had control of the money or

581

00:32:22,164 --> 00:32:23,724

the finances of the organization?

582

00:32:24,804 --> 00:32:28,334

Danielle Ramsey: Um,

Steffen and Chris Dewitt.

583

00:32:28,974 --> 00:32:30,984

Melissa Chase: And who, for

you, who was able to sign

584

00:32:30,984 --> 00:32:32,334

checks in those types of things?

585

00:32:33,024 --> 00:32:33,505

Danielle Ramsey: Steffen and Chris.

586

00:32:34,399 --> 00:32:35,749

Melissa Chase: Who had the debit cards?

587

00:32:35,749 --> 00:32:37,309

To the best, best of your knowledge?

588

00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:38,359

Danielle Ramsey: Steffen and Chris.

589

00:32:39,469 --> 00:32:41,689

Melissa Chase: when you started

looking at TOPS financials do you

590

00:32:41,689 --> 00:32:43,774

remember what your first discovery was?

591

00:32:44,348 --> 00:32:44,588

Danielle Ramsey: Probably

592

00:32:44,588 --> 00:32:48,458

Melissa Chase: how far back in

debt they were with their vendors.

593

00:32:48,548 --> 00:32:51,788

And then it came to light that they

had not been paying payroll taxes.

594

00:32:52,158 --> 00:32:54,438

Danielle Ramsey: Um, I like to

match up when I do my books.

595

00:32:54,438 --> 00:32:58,038

I like to match up everything to a

receipt when the expenses come in,

596

00:32:58,458 --> 00:33:00,288

um, so that you can cross reference.

597

00:33:00,808 --> 00:33:05,908

So we were missing receipts,

yeah, the payroll taxes, how far

598

00:33:05,908 --> 00:33:07,528

we were behind with the vendors.

599

00:33:08,018 --> 00:33:12,398

And then I wanna say there was an employee

whose child support was not getting paid.

600

00:33:12,889 --> 00:33:16,459

So the priority for me when I took over

was just basically caring for the pets.

601

00:33:16,459 --> 00:33:19,729

So you have your payroll that you

have to pay, the payroll taxes, and

602

00:33:19,729 --> 00:33:23,779

then anything involved with the pets

as far as their day to day expenses.

603

00:33:23,989 --> 00:33:29,479

So their shelter, their care, um, food.

604

00:33:30,704 --> 00:33:30,705

Det. Jim Conroy:

605

00:33:30,705 --> 00:33:35,714

So in my investigation of then going

back and looking at all the Tops

606

00:33:35,714 --> 00:33:38,984

records, he started stealing in August.

607

00:33:39,524 --> 00:33:43,634

So the, the, the second

bookkeeper didn't catch that one.

608

00:33:44,294 --> 00:33:47,294

So he, he had stolen from

them buying Facebook ads.

609

00:33:47,654 --> 00:33:50,054

She was on the ball.

610

00:33:50,054 --> 00:33:53,504

She actually contacted Facebook

and wanted proof of all these

611

00:33:53,504 --> 00:33:55,604

purchases that he was making.

612

00:33:55,634 --> 00:33:59,864

'cause then in the end when the

results came back, he had made more.

613

00:34:00,404 --> 00:34:04,994

Um, and I think there were five

total purchases for Facebook ads.

614

00:34:05,774 --> 00:34:09,884

Um, but she originally not only caught

him on that one before, that emergency

615

00:34:09,884 --> 00:34:13,964

meeting, after he resigned, then she

got the records back, like in May,

616

00:34:14,174 --> 00:34:17,893

like we're talking five months later

after he resigned that showed that

617

00:34:18,494 --> 00:34:20,054

he made all these purchases.

618

00:34:20,293 --> 00:34:24,643

None of them were for tops,

all of them were for Act Ohio.

619

00:34:25,123 --> 00:34:27,824

Melissa Chase: Do you remember

the situation with Facebook ads?

620

00:34:28,248 --> 00:34:31,438

Danielle Ramsey: There were significant

charges that were coming from Facebook.

621

00:34:32,103 --> 00:34:36,694

Um, so I did question

Steffen what they were for.

622

00:34:37,054 --> 00:34:40,563

And I was told that they were

like to boost posts for different

623

00:34:40,563 --> 00:34:42,094

events that the shelter was having.

624

00:34:43,373 --> 00:34:46,793

Um, we're a rural community,

so I did not think that the

625

00:34:46,793 --> 00:34:49,103

boost should cost that much.

626

00:34:49,134 --> 00:34:53,574

So I did reach out to Facebook

directly, um, and I re Facebook sent

627

00:34:53,574 --> 00:34:57,864

back, um, screenshots of the ads

that they were not for TOPS of Ohio.

628

00:34:59,034 --> 00:35:01,009

Melissa Chase: And who were

they for these Facebook ads?

629

00:35:01,469 --> 00:35:04,059

Danielle Ramsey: Uh, one

of 'em was for ACT of Ohio.

630

00:35:04,589 --> 00:35:06,319

I don't know if they were all for ACT.

631

00:35:06,379 --> 00:35:10,909

I know they were boosting other

events not related to TOPS.

632

00:35:12,259 --> 00:35:15,064

Melissa Chase: And how much was the

amount of money that he owed TOPS?

633

00:35:15,529 --> 00:35:18,019

Danielle Ramsey: $452 and 68 cents.

634

00:35:18,449 --> 00:35:18,450

Det. Jim Conroy:

635

00:35:18,450 --> 00:35:23,729

She's there a month and a half and catches

him, you know, making a purchase in

636

00:35:23,849 --> 00:35:26,489

Warren Township, Michigan for a GoPro.

637

00:35:27,129 --> 00:35:29,499

Like, why, why are you buying

a GoPro video in Michigan?

638

00:35:29,499 --> 00:35:30,579

How is that a TOPS?

639

00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:32,349

How is that a TOPS item?

640

00:35:32,869 --> 00:35:37,309

And then he claimed the, uh,

purchase of the GoPro was that,

641

00:35:37,339 --> 00:35:41,239

oh, TOPS his credit card looks

just like ACT Ohio's credit card.

642

00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,589

So I accidentally used TOPS.

643

00:35:43,589 --> 00:35:47,759

And she's like, okay, well you have,

you know, you need to pay it back.

644

00:35:47,759 --> 00:35:49,019

And he agrees to pay it back.

645

00:35:49,019 --> 00:35:53,939

The purchase he made of the GoPro, he gave

the ACT Ohio card first at the Walmart

646

00:35:53,939 --> 00:35:58,859

in Warren, Michigan and was rejected

due to lack of funds and then gave the,

647

00:35:58,859 --> 00:36:03,149

uh, Top of Ohio Shelter credit card

and then purchased the GoPro with that.

648

00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:07,829

So his stories of making mistake

of the credit card was not true.

649

00:36:08,339 --> 00:36:09,479

He knew exactly what he was doing.

650

00:36:09,509 --> 00:36:13,079

'cause his credit card for ACT

was getting rejected, then he

651

00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:15,329

would use the tops to pay for it.

652

00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,879

Uh, and none of it was for tops of Ohio.

653

00:36:18,369 --> 00:36:26,709

So when we found out that he had, uh,

somehow he had put $1,300 of TOPS money,

654

00:36:27,489 --> 00:36:32,499

um, he had charged, uh, a cat to that.

655

00:36:32,499 --> 00:36:33,939

It was an ACT, Ohio cat.

656

00:36:34,479 --> 00:36:40,239

And he had charged it to TOPS,

but it was an ACT Ohio cat.

657

00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,619

So they caught it again.

658

00:36:41,619 --> 00:36:45,219

They caught him, Hey, this

$1,300, it's not one of our

659

00:36:45,219 --> 00:36:46,779

animals, it's an ACT animal.

660

00:36:47,349 --> 00:36:51,399

Um, you need to, uh, pay that money back.

661

00:36:52,359 --> 00:36:55,749

So this is a complicated story here.

662

00:36:55,899 --> 00:37:00,429

Melissa Chase: So I wanna talk

to you also about a $1,300 charge

663

00:37:00,849 --> 00:37:02,709

from Rascal Animal Hospital.

664

00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:05,829

Danielle Ramsey: So there was a cat

that the shelter got a call on, I

665

00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:10,759

remember, that needed medical care

and was taken over to Rascals, and

666

00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:18,754

Christina Beery at the time was the,

uh, TOPS office manager, and she

667

00:37:20,809 --> 00:37:22,429

denied acceptance of the cat.

668

00:37:22,489 --> 00:37:24,379

I'm not sure how that came about.

669

00:37:24,859 --> 00:37:28,399

Um, but then all of a sudden I got

an invoice from Rascals for the cat.

670

00:37:28,459 --> 00:37:32,479

So Christina brought it to my attention

that she was aware of this cat and that

671

00:37:32,479 --> 00:37:35,749

the shelter had denied it and was not

taking responsibility for this cat.

672

00:37:36,289 --> 00:37:38,144

Melissa Chase: How much was

the invoice that you got?

673

00:37:38,359 --> 00:37:39,829

Danielle Ramsey: It was about $1,300.

674

00:37:40,429 --> 00:37:43,584

Melissa Chase: So what did

TOPS do with that 1300 charge?

675

00:37:43,934 --> 00:37:46,719

Danielle Ramsey: I confronted it to

Steffen and Steffen said that ACT of

676

00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,129

Ohio was taking on responsibility of

that cat, and that he would submit

677

00:37:51,129 --> 00:37:53,139

for reimbursement for that 1300.

678

00:37:53,769 --> 00:37:59,289

Instead of him writing a check

though for the 1300 back to TOPS,

679

00:37:59,349 --> 00:38:05,229

the agreement was that he would pay

for the uh, apply $1,300 to the next

680

00:38:05,229 --> 00:38:07,614

spay or neuter clinic that came.

681

00:38:07,744 --> 00:38:07,745

Det. Jim Conroy:

682

00:38:07,745 --> 00:38:11,119

So he says, okay, well I'll

just pay them the $1,300, then

683

00:38:11,164 --> 00:38:12,604

you guys don't have to pay her.

684

00:38:12,844 --> 00:38:13,954

That'll take care of that.

685

00:38:13,954 --> 00:38:19,594

So then he writes your, uh, business,

a check for $1,300 and then writes on

686

00:38:19,594 --> 00:38:26,404

it, um, for spay neuter in the notes

section and deposits it into his,

687

00:38:26,494 --> 00:38:28,744

to the TOPS account at your place.

688

00:38:28,744 --> 00:38:32,794

'Cause you had a TOPS account

as well for the spay and neuter

689

00:38:32,794 --> 00:38:34,084

clinics that you were doing.

690

00:38:34,984 --> 00:38:42,604

And then he then notifies them that

he paid the $1,300 back to you guys

691

00:38:42,604 --> 00:38:44,164

and that, you know, TOPS was good.

692

00:38:44,374 --> 00:38:50,674

Couple days later he calls up,

I believe Michelle Scott and

693

00:38:50,674 --> 00:38:51,994

says, Hey, I made a mistake.

694

00:38:53,344 --> 00:38:58,054

That money should have been put into the

ACT Ohio account, not the TOPS account.

695

00:38:58,234 --> 00:39:04,504

So she rerouted that deposit

from TOPS, leaves TOPS thinking

696

00:39:04,504 --> 00:39:06,994

they're, they're getting their

$1,300 that they owe you pay.

697

00:39:07,354 --> 00:39:12,514

He now reroutes it to his

account in ACT Ohio and then

698

00:39:12,514 --> 00:39:14,524

does never does pay TOPS back.

699

00:39:15,574 --> 00:39:18,334

Um, so that's how that story ended up.

700

00:39:18,664 --> 00:39:22,624

And then you ended up losing

13, that $1,300 as as well.

701

00:39:23,864 --> 00:39:27,974

Melissa Chase: Did TOPS get

paid $1,300 from ACT or from Mr.

702

00:39:27,974 --> 00:39:28,319

Baldwin?

703

00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:28,979

Danielle Ramsey: No.

704

00:39:28,979 --> 00:39:33,959

When I called Rascals, they said

that $1,300 credit was applied to

705

00:39:33,959 --> 00:39:35,969

ACT of Ohio's account, not TOPS.

706

00:39:38,159 --> 00:39:38,160

Det. Jim Conroy:

707

00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:44,579

So the early September was like $114

ad for Facebook, And for a GoPro

708

00:39:44,579 --> 00:39:45,869

video that he bought in Michigan.

709

00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:48,289

So a month goes by,

it's the end of October.

710

00:39:48,619 --> 00:39:51,979

He hasn't paid it back

yet, and she gets upset.

711

00:39:51,979 --> 00:39:55,789

So she sends this private message,

uh, email out to all of these TOPS

712

00:39:55,789 --> 00:39:57,949

members stating, Hey, he's taken money.

713

00:39:58,279 --> 00:40:00,109

I, I confronted him with it.

714

00:40:00,139 --> 00:40:01,339

He's supposed to give it back.

715

00:40:01,369 --> 00:40:02,179

It's been a month.

716

00:40:02,179 --> 00:40:03,409

He hasn't paid us back yet.

717

00:40:04,129 --> 00:40:08,089

So she called a secret meeting

or an emergency meeting to have

718

00:40:08,089 --> 00:40:11,449

him come to the board and explain

these purchases to the board.

719

00:40:12,409 --> 00:40:15,229

And then in the, in the, then

there was like offshoots of other

720

00:40:15,229 --> 00:40:18,469

private emails between board

members of like, okay, how do we.

721

00:40:18,889 --> 00:40:20,029

Can we fire him?

722

00:40:20,089 --> 00:40:21,439

Can we vote him out?

723

00:40:21,469 --> 00:40:23,719

We say we're talking about

getting voted out or firing

724

00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,249

him as the Executive Director.

725

00:40:26,299 --> 00:40:31,159

So, um, he, that day sends her

a check and pays the money.

726

00:40:31,819 --> 00:40:34,879

Um, so that kind of

quells that part of it.

727

00:40:34,879 --> 00:40:37,249

So then they have their

meeting that night.

728

00:40:37,609 --> 00:40:39,949

They don't put him, they don't

make him explain anything.

729

00:40:39,949 --> 00:40:43,039

He paid it back, whatever

they accept his, his reasons.

730

00:40:43,039 --> 00:40:47,389

Um, you know, one of the things

that tops is that, you know,

731

00:40:48,049 --> 00:40:49,939

there was a freeze on the money.

732

00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:54,139

That there was no more spending,

uh, because they had to pay

733

00:40:54,139 --> 00:40:57,739

the IRS and that was the number

one goal at that point in time.

734

00:40:58,669 --> 00:41:05,524

And you were contacting him

about, Hey, you know, we need

735

00:41:05,584 --> 00:41:07,264

paid, we need some on your bill.

736

00:41:07,264 --> 00:41:08,344

Can you pay us?

737

00:41:08,764 --> 00:41:11,704

Because, you know, you've gotta

meet payroll and, and, you

738

00:41:11,704 --> 00:41:13,144

know, owed you a lot of money.

739

00:41:13,804 --> 00:41:20,194

And you guys, you know, you needed

some kind of payment and I think Tops

740

00:41:20,194 --> 00:41:26,734

owed you like $7,000 and he, at that

time owed you like 16, uh, thousand.

741

00:41:27,274 --> 00:41:31,204

And so then he goes in and pays like

several thousand dollars from TOPS

742

00:41:31,204 --> 00:41:37,084

even though there was a freeze on the

money was by their, uh, bookkeeper.

743

00:41:37,084 --> 00:41:40,714

And it was agreed upon by everybody

that, that no more money would be spent

744

00:41:40,714 --> 00:41:46,564

on anything except for essentials for

the animals and paying towards the,

745

00:41:46,564 --> 00:41:51,784

uh, bill that they owed the IRS and

that uh, uh, then the attorneys too

746

00:41:51,784 --> 00:41:57,484

were also house attorneys, were also

the attorneys for TOPS same attorneys,

747

00:41:57,484 --> 00:42:00,484

and he owed them money

as well from ACT Ohio.

748

00:42:01,114 --> 00:42:03,394

And he owed them money as well from TOPS.

749

00:42:03,904 --> 00:42:06,334

So then he paid them a

few thousand dollars too.

750

00:42:06,994 --> 00:42:13,054

Uh, you know, to satisfy you, to satisfy

them that you guys got some payment.

751

00:42:13,114 --> 00:42:17,584

I, neither of you could care

less this just needed some

752

00:42:17,584 --> 00:42:18,964

payment from one or the other.

753

00:42:18,994 --> 00:42:23,344

'cause both places owed you thousands

of dollars, owed the lawyers thousands

754

00:42:23,344 --> 00:42:27,574

of dollars, but he then went to TOPS

and he paid out of TOPS account.

755

00:42:28,104 --> 00:42:32,934

. So I don't, I wanna be clear that he

didn't pay what TOPS money for what

756

00:42:32,934 --> 00:42:34,554

ACT Ohio owed either one of you.

757

00:42:34,554 --> 00:42:40,914

He just used that as a way to keep

you guys satisfied, didn't care what

758

00:42:40,914 --> 00:42:44,724

problems that caused TOPS, which

caused them problems, which, um,

759

00:42:45,534 --> 00:42:47,634

uh, it caused an immediate meeting.

760

00:42:48,103 --> 00:42:51,223

Danielle Ramsey: The email below was

sent out on 10/16/15 to you and Chris

761

00:42:51,223 --> 00:42:55,213

notifying you the funds for the shelter

were running low, manageable, but low.

762

00:42:57,193 --> 00:43:01,003

As at that point in time we were waiting

for the check for the county for 7,000.

763

00:43:01,303 --> 00:43:05,323

I indicated that I'm only keeping

necessary accounts current as we needed

764

00:43:05,323 --> 00:43:07,423

to make sure we could cover payroll.

765

00:43:07,993 --> 00:43:16,313

I'm concerned as to why Rascal units was

paid $3,676 and 12 cents on 10/23/15.

766

00:43:16,333 --> 00:43:21,373

I was specifically holding this bill as

we do not have the funds to cover it.

767

00:43:22,003 --> 00:43:24,855

Why was this payment not mentioned

at the board meeting when I was

768

00:43:25,483 --> 00:43:27,643

talking about paying the back taxes.

769

00:43:28,123 --> 00:43:31,933

Unfortunately, taxes get paid prior

to Rascal's or any other vendor.

770

00:43:32,533 --> 00:43:34,993

I'm also a bit concerned on

why an additional bill was

771

00:43:34,993 --> 00:43:41,203

paid on 10/26/15 to Holland and

Murden for $2,023 and 38 cents.

772

00:43:42,583 --> 00:43:46,033

These payments have severely drained

our funds and should not have been paid.

773

00:43:46,393 --> 00:43:47,988

Melissa Chase: Did the

emergency board meeting happen?

774

00:43:48,288 --> 00:43:48,708

Danielle Ramsey: Mm-hmm.

775

00:43:49,558 --> 00:43:51,118

Melissa Chase: What were

the board members' decisions

776

00:43:51,118 --> 00:43:52,203

about these two payments?

777

00:43:52,223 --> 00:43:52,843

Do you remember?

778

00:43:54,273 --> 00:43:54,563

Danielle Ramsey: They

779

00:43:54,563 --> 00:43:56,323

Melissa Chase: agreed that they

were not necessary payments.

780

00:43:56,591 --> 00:43:57,221

And Mr.

781

00:43:57,221 --> 00:44:00,101

Baldwin actually resigned

his position at TOPS correct?

782

00:44:00,106 --> 00:44:00,466

Danielle Ramsey: Correct.

783

00:44:01,171 --> 00:44:01,172

Dr. G:

784

00:44:01,172 --> 00:44:05,341

So one of the things that I wanna

explain is why it was such a big

785

00:44:05,341 --> 00:44:10,021

deal for us that TOPS was not on

top of paying us for our bills.

786

00:44:10,021 --> 00:44:14,431

So the way that the Rascal

unit works is that the hosting

787

00:44:14,431 --> 00:44:15,961

groups, so in this case, tops.

788

00:44:16,366 --> 00:44:19,006

Would schedule the appointments

and they would collect the money

789

00:44:19,066 --> 00:44:22,486

from the clients for the surgeries

that were being performed.

790

00:44:22,816 --> 00:44:27,316

So Tops was basically holding our money

that the clients were paying them.

791

00:44:27,466 --> 00:44:31,696

And then on the backside we were

helping fundraise to pay for some of

792

00:44:31,696 --> 00:44:33,886

the surgeries of the animals from Tops.

793

00:44:34,186 --> 00:44:37,576

So in general, tops should

have been making money.

794

00:44:38,076 --> 00:44:40,356

So they're collecting our money.

795

00:44:40,446 --> 00:44:44,046

And every single clinic that we travel

to, at the very end of the day, they

796

00:44:44,046 --> 00:44:45,306

write us a check for the clinic.

797

00:44:45,456 --> 00:44:46,716

And that's in our contract.

798

00:44:46,746 --> 00:44:49,896

That's how it works for every

single place that we go to.

799

00:44:50,406 --> 00:44:51,576

And that was explained

800

00:44:51,576 --> 00:44:52,270

to Tops.

801

00:44:52,616 --> 00:44:54,696

I mean, Steffen was aware that that's

802

00:44:54,696 --> 00:44:54,697

Dr. G:

803

00:44:54,697 --> 00:44:55,536

how this worked.

804

00:44:55,926 --> 00:44:59,646

And the first few clinics, this was

working fine, and then all of a sudden

805

00:44:59,646 --> 00:45:01,926

it was, oh, they didn't leave a check.

806

00:45:02,106 --> 00:45:05,406

Oh, they left a check, but it

didn't have the two signatures.

807

00:45:05,406 --> 00:45:06,011

Like there was some.

808

00:45:06,916 --> 00:45:07,996

Weird excuse.

809

00:45:08,236 --> 00:45:11,836

And it was really upsetting because

we were working at a deficit.

810

00:45:12,076 --> 00:45:15,016

And our biggest problem, our biggest

concern has always been payroll.

811

00:45:15,016 --> 00:45:20,116

We wanna make sure that the employees

are paid, you know, every, every

812

00:45:20,116 --> 00:45:22,606

payroll as they should for the

hard work that they're doing.

813

00:45:23,056 --> 00:45:30,136

So they're holding our money that the

people paid for our services, and then

814

00:45:30,136 --> 00:45:31,906

they're not giving us our money back.

815

00:45:32,296 --> 00:45:38,536

He never explained to us that the board

was refusing to pay us because of the

816

00:45:38,536 --> 00:45:42,556

IRS tax, you know, the taxes and the

past due amounts and all of that stuff.

817

00:45:42,886 --> 00:45:47,896

So he is telling me that the issue

is that somebody didn't leave

818

00:45:47,896 --> 00:45:49,606

a check, somebody didn't sign.

819

00:45:49,606 --> 00:45:54,616

That it's all just lack of responsibility,

when in reality there are all these

820

00:45:54,616 --> 00:45:59,206

conversations and in the background

they're thinking that we're basically

821

00:45:59,926 --> 00:46:02,926

costing them money because they

don't have money to pay us.

822

00:46:03,136 --> 00:46:08,146

Yet, we're going there and providing

a service that is coming out of

823

00:46:08,146 --> 00:46:12,166

their pocket, and it wasn't, the

clients were paying upfront for the

824

00:46:12,166 --> 00:46:13,546

services that we were providing.

825

00:46:14,007 --> 00:46:17,877

Erica Tyler: I worked there up until

Steffen's exit and then the very beginning

826

00:46:17,877 --> 00:46:20,167

of Barbara Faulkner being our ED.

827

00:46:20,607 --> 00:46:25,167

And I think she's the one that

finally, I think we were having

828

00:46:25,167 --> 00:46:27,387

Rascal clinics up until Steffen left.

829

00:46:27,387 --> 00:46:27,747

Right?

830

00:46:27,867 --> 00:46:29,097

Or is that, is that accurate?

831

00:46:29,217 --> 00:46:29,307

Mm-hmm.

832

00:46:29,547 --> 00:46:32,067

And then Barbara kicked us to the curb.

833

00:46:32,457 --> 00:46:32,458

Dr. G:

834

00:46:32,458 --> 00:46:32,667

Right.

835

00:46:32,817 --> 00:46:33,057

Erica Tyler: Okay.

836

00:46:33,837 --> 00:46:38,757

Um, I worked there until about a

month before the shelter closed.

837

00:46:39,447 --> 00:46:41,847

They didn't give the

staff very much notice.

838

00:46:42,217 --> 00:46:45,487

I think it was, for me, it was

heartbreaking because that was

839

00:46:45,487 --> 00:46:48,187

a place I spent a lot of time

since I was a really young age.

840

00:46:48,187 --> 00:46:52,687

But I, I, if you would've asked me if I

thought Steffen had the anything to do

841

00:46:52,687 --> 00:46:54,697

with us closing, then I would've said no.

842

00:46:54,697 --> 00:46:57,697

I think he was a bad manager,

but I don't think it's his fault.

843

00:46:58,207 --> 00:47:02,917

But seeing the court documents come

out is just a different level of.

844

00:47:04,087 --> 00:47:04,537

Yuck.

845

00:47:05,537 --> 00:47:12,347

Randy Schmidt: The hierarchy that was in

there before Steffen, they, they set a

846

00:47:12,347 --> 00:47:14,927

lot of things in, in, in the problem mode.

847

00:47:15,407 --> 00:47:21,557

And, and again, it, it just made it a

very attractive situation, I think for

848

00:47:21,557 --> 00:47:25,637

somebody like Steffen who's a master

manipulator to begin with, you know?

849

00:47:26,287 --> 00:47:32,797

Erica Tyler: Um, but we had a big

problem with still housing dogs

850

00:47:32,857 --> 00:47:36,607

that didn't need to be adopted out.

851

00:47:36,847 --> 00:47:43,252

Um, in that transition between

Steffen and Barbara, there was

852

00:47:43,252 --> 00:47:44,932

a lot of turmoil with the board.

853

00:47:44,932 --> 00:47:49,942

Randy Schmidt: And, and as turmoil

will have it, it basically, it feeds

854

00:47:50,152 --> 00:47:55,372

to that type of a situation for

somebody like him to take advantage of.

855

00:47:55,372 --> 00:48:01,912

Come December of 2015, the board meeting,

Chris had stepped down in November as

856

00:48:01,912 --> 00:48:08,482

far as president and which then put

me in the position of being president.

857

00:48:08,932 --> 00:48:11,722

But that would have to be voted

on in the meeting in December.

858

00:48:12,442 --> 00:48:16,432

The meeting in December brought both

factions into the, into the meeting

859

00:48:16,432 --> 00:48:19,702

room and all of a sudden everybody

shows up for this board meeting

860

00:48:19,702 --> 00:48:21,352

other than just the board people.

861

00:48:21,952 --> 00:48:23,842

And it's absolute chaos.

862

00:48:23,842 --> 00:48:26,482

I've never been involved

with anything like it.

863

00:48:26,932 --> 00:48:27,712

And, uh.

864

00:48:28,627 --> 00:48:32,167

Have this chuck from back in the

back of, I'm not afraid of you.

865

00:48:32,287 --> 00:48:33,067

I'm not afraid.

866

00:48:33,397 --> 00:48:35,437

I'm not asking you to be afraid of me.

867

00:48:36,067 --> 00:48:36,607

Wait a minute.

868

00:48:36,607 --> 00:48:38,437

Am I here sitting here

threatening you or anything?

869

00:48:38,977 --> 00:48:40,777

Uh, it was just absolute chaos.

870

00:48:40,777 --> 00:48:42,397

Well, what happens?

871

00:48:42,787 --> 00:48:45,727

And I told, uh, officer Conroy about that.

872

00:48:45,727 --> 00:48:51,907

I said, Chris Dewitt had already

resigned as of, uh, November, but

873

00:48:51,907 --> 00:48:53,467

he wanted to stay on the board.

874

00:48:54,477 --> 00:48:58,177

Steffen then steps down

at that December meeting.

875

00:48:58,197 --> 00:48:59,367

So both of them were gone.

876

00:49:00,147 --> 00:49:02,547

Um, and, and everything's in chaos.

877

00:49:03,127 --> 00:49:09,972

I said, I always had my questions

of if the two were together.

878

00:49:11,767 --> 00:49:15,487

If they were in cahoots together,

they both knew what was going on.

879

00:49:15,487 --> 00:49:18,877

So therefore they both quit

at the exact same time.

880

00:49:18,907 --> 00:49:25,207

'cause that's when Chris said, I'm off the

board and Steffen goes, I'm out of here.

881

00:49:25,477 --> 00:49:30,517

So both of 'em walk at the exact

same time and in this huge chaos.

882

00:49:30,517 --> 00:49:37,027

And I said, it just made me wonder

at times who knew what, who was maybe

883

00:49:37,027 --> 00:49:41,197

protecting what or wasn't protecting

what And and again, I told him,

884

00:49:41,317 --> 00:49:49,057

you know, until the trial I really

didn't know as we talked, was Steffen

885

00:49:49,177 --> 00:49:54,727

basically using Chris as a patsy, which

is what Jim said as it turned out.

886

00:49:54,727 --> 00:49:57,457

He said, I said, well, you see

what I, what I told you about?

887

00:49:57,457 --> 00:50:00,037

I couldn't really tell

what was happening there.

888

00:50:00,337 --> 00:50:01,747

He goes, yeah, I get it.

889

00:50:02,047 --> 00:50:03,937

He said, but I think you

had it figured right.

890

00:50:03,967 --> 00:50:07,237

I think Steffen being the

smooth talker and everything,

891

00:50:07,237 --> 00:50:09,817

basically used Chris as the patsy.

892

00:50:10,357 --> 00:50:13,207

Erica Tyler: Steffen had a lot

of turmoil with other employees.

893

00:50:13,387 --> 00:50:18,517

Um, I was, I think I might've been in

Alabama or something visiting, but I know

894

00:50:18,517 --> 00:50:22,987

Steffen showed up to the shelter and was

acting kind of aggressive and had his, his

895

00:50:22,987 --> 00:50:29,107

service weapon, his service weapon, his

service weapon, and, and you know, there's

896

00:50:29,107 --> 00:50:32,587

a couple men there that had an issue with

him already, and I think that just went

897

00:50:33,247 --> 00:50:33,727

sour.

898

00:50:33,727 --> 00:50:37,597

So I think they, they, there's a lot

of turmoil between him and the board.

899

00:50:37,597 --> 00:50:37,837

But

900

00:50:38,927 --> 00:50:41,807

Randy Schmidt: I was going to, I

think a funeral up in Cleveland,

901

00:50:41,807 --> 00:50:43,457

the one day Christina calls me.

902

00:50:43,947 --> 00:50:47,087

Steffen evidently had his badge on

when he came in and had his gun.

903

00:50:47,657 --> 00:50:49,397

And then there was,

904

00:50:49,397 --> 00:50:49,622

DrG: this was the

905

00:50:49,622 --> 00:50:51,407

day after the, after the meeting, right?

906

00:50:51,407 --> 00:50:54,857

That he, he came in to get his last

paycheck or something like that?

907

00:50:55,637 --> 00:50:56,567

Randy Schmidt: I think so.

908

00:50:56,717 --> 00:51:00,137

And, and Christina's calling me,

I'm on 71 heading to Cleveland.

909

00:51:00,137 --> 00:51:05,117

I'm going, well, you know, I, I

can't, you know, I can you, you

910

00:51:05,117 --> 00:51:07,907

know, call the cops if you have to,

you know, do whatever you gotta do.

911

00:51:07,937 --> 00:51:14,327

'cause you know, you know, Chuck

unfortunately was somewhat, not always,

912

00:51:15,617 --> 00:51:20,297

he might've been act, uh, imbibed

once in a while when he was at work.

913

00:51:21,737 --> 00:51:24,977

DrG: The next day, I'm pretty sure it

was the day after that board meeting

914

00:51:24,977 --> 00:51:29,657

that he shows up at TOPS and he was

standing up front, dressed up as a humane

915

00:51:29,657 --> 00:51:32,177

officer with his gun on his holster.

916

00:51:32,717 --> 00:51:36,527

And the people inside of TOPS were

really concerned because they said

917

00:51:36,527 --> 00:51:37,757

that he looked like he was crazy.

918

00:51:38,447 --> 00:51:43,127

And he texted me and said, oh,

they're making this big deal out of

919

00:51:43,127 --> 00:51:46,427

it because I'm wearing my, my weapon.

920

00:51:46,427 --> 00:51:49,157

That's part of my uniform

as a humane officer.

921

00:51:49,727 --> 00:51:53,867

So he, you know, and yeah, I

had no reason to, to doubt it.

922

00:51:53,897 --> 00:51:57,347

Like, I was like, okay, I guess

he's allowed to have a gun, but

923

00:51:57,437 --> 00:52:01,097

realistically he was doing that

to intimidate these people, right?

924

00:52:01,097 --> 00:52:05,897

Like, kind of like, here I am and I'm here

to get what I want and I'm wearing a gun.

925

00:52:05,897 --> 00:52:07,127

So what are you gonna do about it?

926

00:52:08,327 --> 00:52:08,328

Det. Jim Conroy:

927

00:52:08,328 --> 00:52:08,837

Exactly.

928

00:52:08,867 --> 00:52:09,137

Yes.

929

00:52:09,137 --> 00:52:09,887

No, I agree with you.

930

00:52:09,887 --> 00:52:13,757

'Cause uh, you know, the police report

was made of that incident and he did

931

00:52:13,757 --> 00:52:15,737

downplay it to you and to other people.

932

00:52:15,737 --> 00:52:19,217

He talked about in his messages, uh,

they're making a big deal, but there

933

00:52:19,217 --> 00:52:23,717

was a report filed on him for, he did,

you know, frighten people that day.

934

00:52:23,747 --> 00:52:27,827

'cause he did get into a shouting or

screaming match with one of the employees.

935

00:52:28,607 --> 00:52:30,437

Uh, so a report was filed on him.

936

00:52:30,437 --> 00:52:35,187

He was again contacted by the

Logan County Sheriff Department.

937

00:52:35,637 --> 00:52:38,457

Then he came in and he

made a written statement.

938

00:52:39,147 --> 00:52:42,597

And in that written statement, and

again, these are the things that we

939

00:52:42,597 --> 00:52:47,487

use in charging him, he stated, I

was carrying a firearm as part of my,

940

00:52:47,997 --> 00:52:53,877

uh, you know, as part of my duty in,

in uniform, uh, as I'm allowed to,

941

00:52:53,877 --> 00:52:59,097

according to Title ix, which was, was

complete bs and none of that's true.

942

00:52:59,487 --> 00:53:00,927

He's not entitled to carry anything.

943

00:53:00,927 --> 00:53:05,457

But he actually wrote that in his

statement to, uh, Logan County Sheriff's

944

00:53:05,457 --> 00:53:06,777

Department about that incident.

945

00:53:06,777 --> 00:53:10,317

That, that was why I had my

firearm on, because I was acting,

946

00:53:11,007 --> 00:53:14,697

you know, in my position as a

humane agent for Union County.

947

00:53:14,937 --> 00:53:16,677

I just came to drop off keys.

948

00:53:17,607 --> 00:53:18,927

Um, and that was it.

949

00:53:19,377 --> 00:53:22,977

But then I talked to, you know,

interviewed the people from, uh,

950

00:53:23,247 --> 00:53:26,967

Logan County and said, Hey, you

know, how often, you know, did

951

00:53:26,967 --> 00:53:29,577

he, uh, come with that gun on?

952

00:53:29,727 --> 00:53:30,057

Oh yeah.

953

00:53:30,057 --> 00:53:30,687

All the time.

954

00:53:30,687 --> 00:53:31,437

He came all the time.

955

00:53:31,437 --> 00:53:32,427

It wasn't just that day.

956

00:53:32,427 --> 00:53:34,407

It was whenever he came,

957

00:53:34,507 --> 00:53:37,987

Erica Tyler: I remember I received

a phone call that day from

958

00:53:37,987 --> 00:53:41,197

Chuck and he said, Patch, you'll

never guess what just happened.

959

00:53:41,317 --> 00:53:42,337

And I'm like, what?

960

00:53:42,547 --> 00:53:45,367

You know, I thought maybe a dog

had gotten out and he had to

961

00:53:45,367 --> 00:53:46,687

chase it around the shelter.

962

00:53:46,687 --> 00:53:48,127

You know, something silly like that.

963

00:53:48,557 --> 00:53:51,097

Steffen just showed up here

with his gun, you know?

964

00:53:51,157 --> 00:53:53,887

I was like, oh my.

965

00:53:54,007 --> 00:53:55,117

He is like, he should have seen it.

966

00:53:55,117 --> 00:53:56,167

I said, I wish I did.

967

00:53:56,827 --> 00:53:59,677

'cause people bring that up all the time

and they're like, do you remember that?

968

00:53:59,707 --> 00:54:02,257

I'm like, I wish I did,

but I wasn't there.

969

00:54:02,257 --> 00:54:04,207

But I've heard all about it many times.

970

00:54:04,297 --> 00:54:05,077

Especially Chuck.

971

00:54:05,077 --> 00:54:06,127

He loves to talk about that.

972

00:54:07,872 --> 00:54:07,873

Dr. G:

973

00:54:07,873 --> 00:54:09,042

So what happened?

974

00:54:09,042 --> 00:54:10,362

So what happened afterwards?

975

00:54:10,442 --> 00:54:13,442

Erica Tyler: These dogs that we

had, I remember specifically one

976

00:54:13,442 --> 00:54:17,762

was a corso from Indian Lake,

977

00:54:17,862 --> 00:54:20,832

and the Dog Warden brought her,

and I don't remember which, but it

978

00:54:20,832 --> 00:54:24,462

lived in one of our outside kennels,

but it had like shelter and a dog,

979

00:54:24,672 --> 00:54:26,682

dog house, and food and water.

980

00:54:26,682 --> 00:54:30,762

And this dog finally got to the point

where you couldn't go in the cage and turn

981

00:54:30,762 --> 00:54:32,982

your back on it, or it would lunge at you.

982

00:54:33,162 --> 00:54:37,692

And the day I quit, I went out

there, I went to try to feed the dog

983

00:54:37,692 --> 00:54:39,252

and I couldn't even open the cage.

984

00:54:39,552 --> 00:54:42,582

I walked up front and I said, you know.

985

00:54:43,587 --> 00:54:44,907

This dog's a liability.

986

00:54:44,907 --> 00:54:45,597

It's gotta go.

987

00:54:45,807 --> 00:54:47,547

Like, we, we can't feed it.

988

00:54:47,607 --> 00:54:49,137

I said, are you gonna go

back there and feed it?

989

00:54:49,797 --> 00:54:53,577

And uh, Barbara at the time said no.

990

00:54:53,577 --> 00:54:54,567

And I said, then I quit.

991

00:54:54,567 --> 00:54:56,187

And I dropped my keys

on the desk and left.

992

00:54:56,187 --> 00:54:59,967

And they also had RTC in there

helping us clean kennels to try to

993

00:54:59,967 --> 00:55:01,707

help with the, the short staffed and.

994

00:55:02,262 --> 00:55:06,012

I know you're not from Logan County and

people listening might not know, but RTC

995

00:55:06,012 --> 00:55:10,852

is a program, um, or a 501c3 organization

we have in Logan County that employs

996

00:55:10,852 --> 00:55:14,692

people who are disabled so they can

work and they usually travel with like a

997

00:55:14,692 --> 00:55:16,552

buddy, you know, that can help them work.

998

00:55:16,552 --> 00:55:20,062

And I was like, this isn't safe for

people that don't know anything about it.

999

00:55:20,122 --> 00:55:23,032

Not to mention someone that's

disabled and maybe not strong

1000

00:55:23,032 --> 00:55:24,412

enough to handle some of these dogs.

1001

00:55:25,522 --> 00:55:27,202

That's not your choice to make Erica.

1002

00:55:27,202 --> 00:55:29,782

And I said, well, you know,

what is my choice to make?

1003

00:55:29,782 --> 00:55:30,292

I quit.

1004

00:55:30,922 --> 00:55:34,162

And I looked for, uh, I looked for

work for about two weeks until I

1005

00:55:34,162 --> 00:55:38,272

sent somebody a message over at

Rascal and said, Hey, I need a job.

1006

00:55:38,392 --> 00:55:38,722

Okay.

1007

00:55:38,722 --> 00:55:39,562

Can you come in tomorrow?

1008

00:55:39,682 --> 00:55:39,982

Yep.

1009

00:55:42,322 --> 00:55:43,762

The rest is history, I suppose.

1010

00:55:44,438 --> 00:55:44,439

Dr. G:

1011

00:55:44,439 --> 00:55:48,648

Yeah, and one of the problems that

happens with, you know, union County.

1012

00:55:48,648 --> 00:55:53,268

He had this really long time at Union

County and things were not what they

1013

00:55:53,268 --> 00:55:55,368

seemed to be, but nobody knew that.

1014

00:55:55,548 --> 00:56:01,158

So he goes to top of Ohio and they

take him at his word because he

1015

00:56:01,158 --> 00:56:03,798

spent all this time with Union

County and look at the great things

1016

00:56:03,798 --> 00:56:05,118

that he says that he did there.

1017

00:56:05,388 --> 00:56:10,038

So they take him into

tops and he destroys tops.

1018

00:56:10,338 --> 00:56:12,648

But still nobody really knows about it.

1019

00:56:12,918 --> 00:56:14,598

And this is dangerous because.

1020

00:56:14,943 --> 00:56:18,063

These are not the only places that

he was trying to do things with.

1021

00:56:18,513 --> 00:56:24,453

Um, you know, we're going to talk now to

another director who he kind of tried to

1022

00:56:24,453 --> 00:56:29,403

do something similar and she had no reason

to know otherwise, because, you know,

1023

00:56:29,643 --> 00:56:31,873

he was at Union County, he was at Logan.

1024

00:56:31,893 --> 00:56:37,053

He has this great social media presence,

so he must be doing something right.

1025

00:56:37,651 --> 00:56:41,161

Jenn Thomas: I am Jenn Thomas and I am

the Executive Director at the Ross County

1026

00:56:41,161 --> 00:56:43,501

Humane Society in Chillicothe Ohio.

1027

00:56:44,641 --> 00:56:48,131

DrG: Can you tell us about your

experience, like when you first Steffen,

1028

00:56:48,151 --> 00:56:51,691

like what was the circumstance that

you guys come in contact with him?

1029

00:56:52,186 --> 00:56:56,116

Jenn Thomas: So I started on

the board of directors as a

1030

00:56:56,146 --> 00:56:59,746

board member in 2013 or 2014.

1031

00:57:00,166 --> 00:57:04,786

Um, at that point, I was solely

responsible for, as a board member

1032

00:57:05,146 --> 00:57:09,526

finding and making rescue connections,

um, whether that be other shelters

1033

00:57:09,526 --> 00:57:11,266

with rescues, other things.

1034

00:57:11,266 --> 00:57:13,486

And so that was primarily

what I focused on doing.

1035

00:57:14,026 --> 00:57:21,136

Um, I took over as the director in August

of 2015, and somehow I got connected

1036

00:57:21,136 --> 00:57:25,696

with Steffen and I don't remember who

made that connection for us, but the

1037

00:57:25,696 --> 00:57:28,696

whole idea was that he was going to come

1038

00:57:28,996 --> 00:57:31,996

to our shelter and see

what we had going on.

1039

00:57:31,996 --> 00:57:36,046

And at that time we had a really big

money crisis, meaning we were spending

1040

00:57:36,046 --> 00:57:37,606

way more money than we were making.

1041

00:57:38,086 --> 00:57:44,206

And he presented himself in a way that he

could help us with the dogs that we had,

1042

00:57:44,206 --> 00:57:48,376

which at that time was well over a hundred

dogs in our facility, which is too many.

1043

00:57:48,916 --> 00:57:52,486

Um, and with figuring

out ways to fund things.

1044

00:57:52,486 --> 00:57:56,896

And if I'm not mistaken, I think we

paid him to come and speak to us.

1045

00:57:56,896 --> 00:57:58,036

And it was after hours.

1046

00:57:58,036 --> 00:57:59,386

Several of my board members came.

1047

00:57:59,386 --> 00:58:02,446

There were several members of

the public that came and he

1048

00:58:02,446 --> 00:58:05,056

just, he was very charismatic.

1049

00:58:05,056 --> 00:58:09,136

He just presented himself in a

way that made us think that he

1050

00:58:09,286 --> 00:58:10,756

knew what he was talking about.

1051

00:58:10,756 --> 00:58:14,776

So, um, that was my, like my

really first experience with him.

1052

00:58:14,971 --> 00:58:18,916

I think during that visit, I remember

him walking through the back and we had,

1053

00:58:19,936 --> 00:58:21,796

I don't, there's 50 dogs in the back.

1054

00:58:21,796 --> 00:58:26,206

A lot of dogs, and a lot of them had been

there for a while, probably too long.

1055

00:58:26,836 --> 00:58:30,766

And we were asking him like, do

you think you can help these dogs?

1056

00:58:30,766 --> 00:58:35,656

And like his, his biggest sentiment was

all of these dogs can be helped, but I

1057

00:58:35,656 --> 00:58:37,996

can't help them, but they can be helped.

1058

00:58:37,996 --> 00:58:38,626

And so.

1059

00:58:39,526 --> 00:58:43,576

We kind of were a little starstruck

almost by him, but he really

1060

00:58:43,576 --> 00:58:46,966

didn't give us any like information

about like what we could do.

1061

00:58:47,056 --> 00:58:50,776

The only thing he really

recommended was, um, bingo.

1062

00:58:51,316 --> 00:58:52,726

He was like, you need to do bingo.

1063

00:58:52,726 --> 00:58:54,046

He is like, that's how we fund everything.

1064

00:58:54,046 --> 00:58:54,676

Like do bingo.

1065

00:58:54,676 --> 00:58:58,006

And I, I think he might

have told me Rascal as well.

1066

00:58:58,486 --> 00:59:00,226

Now that I'm thinking about it, he did.

1067

00:59:00,226 --> 00:59:03,226

He was like, you know, you can

charge people twice what Rascal

1068

00:59:03,226 --> 00:59:04,666

charges you and you can make money.

1069

00:59:04,666 --> 00:59:07,906

And then the, you know, you

still get animals fixed.

1070

00:59:07,906 --> 00:59:10,666

And that may be how we got

connected with you, honestly.

1071

00:59:11,206 --> 00:59:13,966

Um, but yeah, he, we were, I.

1072

00:59:14,151 --> 00:59:16,191

You know, I, I was dumb.

1073

00:59:16,431 --> 00:59:17,061

I was new.

1074

00:59:17,061 --> 00:59:19,851

I didn't know I trusted him and

we needed money and we needed

1075

00:59:19,851 --> 00:59:21,111

to figure a way to get out dogs.

1076

00:59:21,111 --> 00:59:25,971

But I didn't realize until shortly after

that some of the things that he was doing

1077

00:59:25,971 --> 00:59:29,301

or maybe suggesting probably wasn't gonna

be in the best interest of the dogs.

1078

00:59:30,796 --> 00:59:35,206

DrG: Yeah, I remember that he had reached

out to me and said that he met with

1079

00:59:35,206 --> 00:59:39,856

you guys and that you were looking into

restarting the spay neuter program because

1080

00:59:39,856 --> 00:59:44,026

we used to go to Ross County before you

got there, and then things were not very

1081

00:59:44,026 --> 00:59:46,726

good and we stopped traveling there.

1082

00:59:47,056 --> 00:59:49,876

Um, and then we, we came back.

1083

00:59:50,236 --> 00:59:54,766

So, so, you know, so he's kind of

like giving you these ideas that are

1084

00:59:55,456 --> 00:59:57,736

not really leading too much anything.

1085

00:59:57,736 --> 01:00:00,256

So did he follow up or

what happened after that?

1086

01:00:00,556 --> 01:00:01,336

Jenn Thomas: Not really.

1087

01:00:01,396 --> 01:00:03,766

Um, he, he didn't really follow up.

1088

01:00:03,846 --> 01:00:07,446

I had reached out to him several times

afterwards about different, difficult

1089

01:00:07,446 --> 01:00:11,543

dogs that we had, and I, I started

following him on social media and

1090

01:00:11,543 --> 01:00:14,873

there were several things on there

that I started, I personally started

1091

01:00:14,873 --> 01:00:16,553

to notice that made me uncomfortable.

1092

01:00:16,913 --> 01:00:20,153

A lot of the, the dogs that he was taking,

he would have pictures of them with his

1093

01:00:20,153 --> 01:00:24,353

kids, like in, in, in his house or on his

porch with all, you know, 14 other dogs.

1094

01:00:24,353 --> 01:00:25,223

And I just was like.

1095

01:00:25,448 --> 01:00:28,028

I just feel like this is not a

great situation, and I didn't

1096

01:00:28,028 --> 01:00:29,468

know any of his training methods.

1097

01:00:29,468 --> 01:00:30,938

He didn't talk to us about that.

1098

01:00:30,938 --> 01:00:35,798

But beyond that, the only other

thing that he really pushed was he,

1099

01:00:36,098 --> 01:00:39,698

he wanted to, I believe he wanted

to bring a camera crew at one point.

1100

01:00:39,698 --> 01:00:43,058

I think he was trying to start a reality

show, and I feel like we were a means

1101

01:00:43,058 --> 01:00:46,493

to that end, like we were this poor

shelter who didn't have any money and

1102

01:00:46,493 --> 01:00:49,373

had all these dogs and a new person

who didn't know what they were doing,

1103

01:00:49,373 --> 01:00:52,433

and he was gonna come in and he was

gonna be the savior, which truthfully,

1104

01:00:52,433 --> 01:00:55,283

if that had happened and it worked

out, I would be very grateful for him.

1105

01:00:55,283 --> 01:00:56,603

But that's definitely not what happened.

1106

01:00:56,603 --> 01:01:00,113

He basically got whatever footage

he was going to get from us, and

1107

01:01:00,113 --> 01:01:01,283

then that was kind of the end of it.

1108

01:01:01,283 --> 01:01:01,343

So.

1109

01:01:03,503 --> 01:01:07,253

DrG: So looking back at everything

that that happened, were you

1110

01:01:07,253 --> 01:01:10,403

surprised when you found out about

the things that he was doing?

1111

01:01:10,883 --> 01:01:15,563

Jenn Thomas: Um, I think I wasn't

as, as engulfed as some other people

1112

01:01:15,563 --> 01:01:20,333

were, so I wasn't quite aware of some

of the, I I'm assuming those are now

1113

01:01:20,903 --> 01:01:24,083

their convicted the money issues.

1114

01:01:24,083 --> 01:01:25,793

I was not aware that those were happening.

1115

01:01:26,303 --> 01:01:29,693

Um, I wasn't aware of, of

some of the things, but like.

1116

01:01:30,908 --> 01:01:35,888

He just was, was saying things that

as I got a little bit into, I realized

1117

01:01:35,888 --> 01:01:37,628

were not possible or were not true.

1118

01:01:37,628 --> 01:01:41,318

Like there you can't rehabilitate

every single dog and like I feel

1119

01:01:41,318 --> 01:01:44,798

like he set that expectation

speaking to my board that like,

1120

01:01:45,623 --> 01:01:49,733

if we just tried a little harder, we

had more people who were like him,

1121

01:01:50,033 --> 01:01:53,393

that we would be doing better than

we were doing, which wasn't the case.

1122

01:01:53,393 --> 01:01:56,813

So I think, you know, I remember

one of my board members saying this

1123

01:01:56,813 --> 01:01:58,583

was a dog that we'd had for a while.

1124

01:01:58,583 --> 01:02:01,283

And, and he, you know, kind of

looked at him like, with like

1125

01:02:01,313 --> 01:02:02,513

pleading like, are you good?

1126

01:02:02,573 --> 01:02:03,623

Can you help this dog?

1127

01:02:03,623 --> 01:02:05,723

And he basically was like, no,

I, there's nothing I can do.

1128

01:02:05,723 --> 01:02:08,003

And I'm like, why are you like,

what are you, why are you here?

1129

01:02:08,063 --> 01:02:09,533

Like, what is it that you want from us?

1130

01:02:09,533 --> 01:02:10,403

We don't have any money.

1131

01:02:10,673 --> 01:02:12,863

We already paid you to

come here and talk to us.

1132

01:02:13,083 --> 01:02:15,573

To tell us that, like get

bingo and go to Rascal.

1133

01:02:15,573 --> 01:02:18,153

Like those were the two main

takeaways that we took from him.

1134

01:02:18,606 --> 01:02:21,456

DrG: I'm assuming overall

you're like happy that it did

1135

01:02:21,456 --> 01:02:23,016

not really work out with him.

1136

01:02:23,016 --> 01:02:27,696

So you guys did not get, you know,

suckered by a lot of the stuff that.

1137

01:02:28,016 --> 01:02:29,126

That he did, right?

1138

01:02:29,156 --> 01:02:29,216

I

1139

01:02:29,216 --> 01:02:31,076

Jenn Thomas: mean, I am, I'm really glad.

1140

01:02:31,076 --> 01:02:33,506

I feel, I feel stupid, honestly.

1141

01:02:33,536 --> 01:02:34,526

Again, I was new.

1142

01:02:34,526 --> 01:02:36,056

I'd never worked in animal welfare.

1143

01:02:36,056 --> 01:02:37,556

I'd never worked in a nonprofit.

1144

01:02:37,556 --> 01:02:40,886

I came from a banking and insurance

background, and I just happened

1145

01:02:40,886 --> 01:02:43,976

to love animals and ended up

being good at what I am doing.

1146

01:02:44,606 --> 01:02:45,056

Um.

1147

01:02:45,941 --> 01:02:49,571

I just, I thought I even, I went to

the bingo, like the courses that you

1148

01:02:49,571 --> 01:02:52,541

have to take, because I thought like,

this man knows what he's talking about.

1149

01:02:52,541 --> 01:02:55,241

Like, look at all the stuff he's

doing and like you look back on it and

1150

01:02:55,241 --> 01:02:57,041

you're like, what were we thinking?

1151

01:02:57,041 --> 01:03:00,881

Like, it, it makes me feel really stupid

and it makes me feel really used because

1152

01:03:00,881 --> 01:03:02,471

like I said, I feel like he used, I.

1153

01:03:03,086 --> 01:03:09,116

At least the situation that we were in

as a jumping off for him to further his

1154

01:03:09,206 --> 01:03:12,776

agenda of, of helping people but not

really helping, if that makes sense.

1155

01:03:12,776 --> 01:03:14,786

So I'm glad we didn't get any further.

1156

01:03:14,786 --> 01:03:18,566

I know there probably are

other shelters that did, but I.

1157

01:03:18,566 --> 01:03:20,076

We just were, I'm like, you know,

there's not anything that he's

1158

01:03:20,076 --> 01:03:24,156

suggesting we do aside, I wanna

say he wanted to come back and he

1159

01:03:24,156 --> 01:03:25,956

wanted us to pay him something else.

1160

01:03:25,956 --> 01:03:28,506

But I, it's been so long ago

that I can't remember, and I

1161

01:03:28,506 --> 01:03:29,616

looked through a lot of my stuff.

1162

01:03:29,616 --> 01:03:33,006

I tried to find some pictures that we

had taken, um, the day he was there.

1163

01:03:33,006 --> 01:03:35,916

But like they, the, the people that

were there treated him like a celebrity.

1164

01:03:35,916 --> 01:03:37,356

Like we thought it was a big deal.

1165

01:03:37,356 --> 01:03:39,366

And now I look at it,

I'm like, we were dumb.

1166

01:03:39,366 --> 01:03:42,966

Like, he just, he really just

fooled a lot of people, I think,

1167

01:03:42,966 --> 01:03:43,986

and especially people who.

1168

01:03:44,936 --> 01:03:49,736

In my situation, I was so desperate to

like make a, a difference because we were

1169

01:03:49,736 --> 01:03:54,206

doing so poorly in, in many aspects and

you know, I have him and I think, wow,

1170

01:03:54,206 --> 01:03:55,436

look at all the great things he is doing.

1171

01:03:55,436 --> 01:03:58,916

He can save all the, all the dogs and

he has all these resources and he really

1172

01:03:58,916 --> 01:04:01,346

didn't have any, he was just a fraud.

1173

01:04:01,976 --> 01:04:01,977

Dr. G:

1174

01:04:01,977 --> 01:04:02,306

Right.

1175

01:04:02,966 --> 01:04:04,676

So what did you learn

about this experience?

1176

01:04:05,346 --> 01:04:06,126

Jenn Thomas: I feel like.

1177

01:04:06,591 --> 01:04:12,111

There are a lot of really great males in

the animal shelter and animal welfare.

1178

01:04:12,171 --> 01:04:16,131

There are a few, the rest of them that

I have met have ended up being very much

1179

01:04:16,131 --> 01:04:19,761

like him, which I won't name names for

anybody, but I feel like sometimes they're

1180

01:04:19,761 --> 01:04:24,321

in it for the wrong reason and I'm just a

lot more cognizant of people who tell me

1181

01:04:24,321 --> 01:04:27,861

like that they can fix everything because

they can't, you can't save every dog.

1182

01:04:27,861 --> 01:04:31,671

And I think somebody in the rescue

community that's touting save them

1183

01:04:31,671 --> 01:04:34,101

all at, you know, at that time

I thought, well, that's great.

1184

01:04:34,101 --> 01:04:35,391

And I'm like, that's really unhealthy.

1185

01:04:35,391 --> 01:04:37,551

It's unhealthy for the staff,

it's unhealthy for the dog.

1186

01:04:37,551 --> 01:04:39,831

It's, it's unhealthy for the

community and it's not realistic.

1187

01:04:39,831 --> 01:04:44,181

So, um, I just look at people a little

bit more carefully when we're choosing to

1188

01:04:44,181 --> 01:04:49,371

work with them or look up to them, just

because I know more now and I don't want.

1189

01:04:50,826 --> 01:04:55,566

I don't want anything that we do to

be impacted by somebody who truly,

1190

01:04:55,566 --> 01:04:56,946

actually doesn't know what they're doing.

1191

01:04:58,546 --> 01:04:58,726

DrG: yeah.

1192

01:04:58,726 --> 01:05:01,636

I mean, that was the problem with social

media and everything that he was sharing.

1193

01:05:01,899 --> 01:05:04,479

Jenn Thomas: Our community

treated him like a celebrity.

1194

01:05:04,899 --> 01:05:08,679

Um, the women in the, like, the

animal, the dog, women, they were

1195

01:05:08,679 --> 01:05:10,089

just like, oh my gosh, he's so great.

1196

01:05:10,089 --> 01:05:14,619

I'm like, I mean, he's m at best,

but he's not, he's not really

1197

01:05:14,619 --> 01:05:17,889

providing any anything to us

and he wants something from us.

1198

01:05:17,889 --> 01:05:20,199

He wants to come down here and

film something for himself and

1199

01:05:20,199 --> 01:05:21,369

we're gonna get nothing from it.

1200

01:05:21,399 --> 01:05:22,629

He's gonna benefit from it.

1201

01:05:23,139 --> 01:05:25,389

So it just, you know, I just.

1202

01:05:26,259 --> 01:05:30,939

I at, at the end of the day, I feel stupid

for even looking up to him at any point.

1203

01:05:30,939 --> 01:05:33,939

But you don't know what you

know and so you know it.

1204

01:05:33,939 --> 01:05:34,209

So

1205

01:05:34,939 --> 01:05:38,569

DrG: like there was no good

way of verifying that things

1206

01:05:38,569 --> 01:05:40,038

were right or wrong, right?

1207

01:05:40,038 --> 01:05:44,659

It was just all literally from him

saying, I did this, and then people,

1208

01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:47,509

you know, telling him how great he was.

1209

01:05:47,509 --> 01:05:50,569

So we're doing it, and then him just

sharing and sharing and sharing.

1210

01:05:50,569 --> 01:05:52,609

But I don't know that

anybody really vetted.

1211

01:05:53,194 --> 01:05:54,304

Stuff that he was saying.

1212

01:05:54,309 --> 01:05:54,419

No, and

1213

01:05:54,419 --> 01:05:57,634

Jenn Thomas: I, I feel like that that

happens a lot honestly in dealing.

1214

01:05:57,724 --> 01:05:59,584

I've, like I said, I've been

doing this for 10 years.

1215

01:05:59,584 --> 01:06:03,334

I've dealt with some amazing rescues and

some amazing shelters, and I've dealt

1216

01:06:03,334 --> 01:06:07,024

with some shelters that are, you know,

have a little bit that they could learn

1217

01:06:07,024 --> 01:06:09,124

and some rescues that are also not great.

1218

01:06:09,124 --> 01:06:12,784

And so I don't think, I mean,

there should be some sort of

1219

01:06:12,784 --> 01:06:15,014

a vetting process in place.

1220

01:06:15,014 --> 01:06:16,339

Somehow, I don't know

what that looks like.

1221

01:06:16,339 --> 01:06:18,229

That's beyond my scope of, of doing.

1222

01:06:18,229 --> 01:06:22,849

However, you know, the, the length at

which Steffen was able to go, I think

1223

01:06:22,849 --> 01:06:24,199

should not have been able to happen.

1224

01:06:24,199 --> 01:06:28,909

And there are numerous people on my

Facebook feed who were like, no, this

1225

01:06:28,909 --> 01:06:30,529

guy's, he's not what he says he is.

1226

01:06:30,529 --> 01:06:33,229

And then they were, you know,

85 more people were like,

1227

01:06:33,288 --> 01:06:34,579

oh my God, he's so great.

1228

01:06:34,579 --> 01:06:37,699

When in reality he just, you know,

he wasn't, was he ever great?

1229

01:06:37,699 --> 01:06:38,329

I don't know.

1230

01:06:39,229 --> 01:06:40,129

I don't, I don't know.

1231

01:06:40,159 --> 01:06:42,709

Like, was his goal the

whole time to just be on tv?

1232

01:06:42,829 --> 01:06:43,369

Was that the.

1233

01:06:43,954 --> 01:06:48,334

Or did he care at some point, which

still doesn't make what he did.

1234

01:06:48,334 --> 01:06:48,663

Right?

1235

01:06:48,663 --> 01:06:52,774

But you know, how do you get

into this if you have no desire

1236

01:06:52,774 --> 01:06:54,064

to actually make do good?

1237

01:06:55,654 --> 01:06:55,864

DrG: Yeah.

1238

01:06:55,864 --> 01:07:01,474

I think that it's, we are all learning

that when somebody comes in and says,

1239

01:07:01,564 --> 01:07:05,074

these are my qualifications, or this

is what I have to offer, or whatever,

1240

01:07:05,104 --> 01:07:09,334

then perhaps we do need to take

that extra step to say, show me why.

1241

01:07:09,814 --> 01:07:10,054

Right?

1242

01:07:10,054 --> 01:07:11,584

Like, show me where you learned this.

1243

01:07:11,584 --> 01:07:12,663

Show me where.

1244

01:07:13,294 --> 01:07:17,494

You got this, this training or information

or education or whatever, because

1245

01:07:17,494 --> 01:07:19,084

that was a, that was a big problem.

1246

01:07:19,444 --> 01:07:25,504

He literally talked a big talk, but he

did not have anything to back it up.

1247

01:07:26,264 --> 01:07:30,344

Jenn Thomas: There is a large

discrepancy between what the community

1248

01:07:30,344 --> 01:07:34,004

wants us to do and what training

is available to people to have.

1249

01:07:34,004 --> 01:07:35,864

I had zero training when I started here.

1250

01:07:35,864 --> 01:07:38,594

I definitely don't consider

myself an expert by any means.

1251

01:07:38,594 --> 01:07:41,234

However, I've been doing this for a

while and I've made a ton of mistakes

1252

01:07:41,234 --> 01:07:45,494

and I've tried to align myself with

people that I do respect, you know,

1253

01:07:45,524 --> 01:07:47,294

that are doing it for the right reasons.

1254

01:07:47,294 --> 01:07:53,114

And we've, you know, kind of discovered

like there's not a set path from, from.

1255

01:07:53,714 --> 01:07:57,974

Doing good and just not having the

resources to finding somebody that's

1256

01:07:57,974 --> 01:08:03,584

trained and, and and knowledgeable to

help you in a way that that is useful.

1257

01:08:03,884 --> 01:08:09,104

And I think that those things, if there

was more of a standardized way for us to

1258

01:08:09,104 --> 01:08:13,244

say, okay, these are the qualifications

that you need to have, or you have to get

1259

01:08:13,244 --> 01:08:16,904

in order to do what you're doing, I think

that that might make things a little bit

1260

01:08:16,904 --> 01:08:20,474

more transparent because I'm sure that

there are other rescues out there that

1261

01:08:21,104 --> 01:08:23,804

are not great too, that

people think are amazing.

1262

01:08:23,804 --> 01:08:29,084

And you know, there's no way for us in the

sheltering world to say anything without

1263

01:08:29,084 --> 01:08:32,834

being ostracized by people who think that

they're also great, if that makes sense.

1264

01:08:32,834 --> 01:08:34,514

Like, you don't wanna be the odd man out.

1265

01:08:34,514 --> 01:08:37,094

You don't wanna be the shelter that

other people don't like because you've

1266

01:08:37,094 --> 01:08:39,493

gone against the green, because you

just don't feel right about something.

1267

01:08:39,493 --> 01:08:45,044

And so I think if there was a way or a

course or something to say, you know.

1268

01:08:45,524 --> 01:08:48,854

Jen went through this course for

leadership, or Jen went through this

1269

01:08:48,854 --> 01:08:52,783

course for animal behavior, or Jen

went through this course, which, I

1270

01:08:52,783 --> 01:08:55,634

mean, what do you, what do you have

to do to become a humane agent?

1271

01:08:55,634 --> 01:08:58,844

You go through like a week long class,

I think, and that's pretty much it.

1272

01:08:58,844 --> 01:09:01,274

And then what, who, who

monitors it after that?

1273

01:09:01,634 --> 01:09:02,504

Who's in charge?

1274

01:09:02,564 --> 01:09:03,374

It's nobody.

1275

01:09:04,214 --> 01:09:04,544

So.

1276

01:09:05,759 --> 01:09:10,859

DrG: I think he, he hurt rescues and

shelters and the lies that he made

1277

01:09:10,889 --> 01:09:14,759

because he was trying to push this

agenda that every dog could be saved.

1278

01:09:14,939 --> 01:09:18,658

And then he was saying that he was

rescuing these aggressive dogs and

1279

01:09:18,658 --> 01:09:23,459

he was rehabilitating them because he

cared and he gave him time, which then

1280

01:09:23,459 --> 01:09:27,599

makes every other shelter that does

not have all these success stories

1281

01:09:27,779 --> 01:09:29,578

sound like they just wanna kill dogs.

1282

01:09:29,879 --> 01:09:32,309

And in reality, he was

the one killing the dogs.

1283

01:09:32,939 --> 01:09:36,269

Jenn Thomas: I felt like I, and, and

this still happens because there's

1284

01:09:36,269 --> 01:09:38,969

still people out there who are

like, you can save every single dog.

1285

01:09:38,969 --> 01:09:39,509

You've seen them.

1286

01:09:39,509 --> 01:09:40,019

I'm sure.

1287

01:09:40,649 --> 01:09:43,979

I just felt like if I tried

harder, I could do it.

1288

01:09:44,158 --> 01:09:47,939

Like if he's doing it, like

if he can do it, I can do it.

1289

01:09:47,939 --> 01:09:49,948

That's just my mentality

and life in general.

1290

01:09:49,948 --> 01:09:52,169

I think there are very few

things that I can't accomplish

1291

01:09:52,169 --> 01:09:53,669

if I try and I'm like, why?

1292

01:09:53,969 --> 01:09:55,109

Why can he do this?

1293

01:09:55,289 --> 01:09:59,504

And he's a singular person and I can't

do it, and I have the support of a

1294

01:09:59,504 --> 01:10:03,764

community and a staff and, you know,

volunteers and fosters like, what am I do?

1295

01:10:03,764 --> 01:10:08,594

Like, I took it as a failure on my part

because I felt like I should be able

1296

01:10:08,594 --> 01:10:12,224

to do what I felt like we should be

saving more dogs than we were saving.

1297

01:10:12,224 --> 01:10:14,384

And at that time, we were

saving a lot of dogs.

1298

01:10:14,744 --> 01:10:19,034

Um, that in reality probably should

not have been saved either from a,

1299

01:10:19,394 --> 01:10:22,964

a humane, ethical standpoint of us

just keeping them too long because.

1300

01:10:23,534 --> 01:10:26,864

There was never that conversation

with him, of the person I looked

1301

01:10:26,864 --> 01:10:29,294

up to that said, okay, well you've

had this dog for nine months.

1302

01:10:29,534 --> 01:10:30,824

It doesn't like other dogs.

1303

01:10:30,824 --> 01:10:32,564

Like, have you ever thought

about letting it go?

1304

01:10:32,564 --> 01:10:34,004

Those conversations never came up.

1305

01:10:34,004 --> 01:10:36,104

Those were, if you try

harder, you'll find someone I.

1306

01:10:36,914 --> 01:10:38,984

So, I mean, it was a failure on our part.

1307

01:10:39,434 --> 01:10:41,834

You know, my board members were

there and you know, they hear that

1308

01:10:41,834 --> 01:10:44,714

and I'm like, well, now they're, you

know, they, they think I'm just not

1309

01:10:44,714 --> 01:10:46,514

trying hard enough for the 40 dogs.

1310

01:10:46,514 --> 01:10:51,494

At that time a year we were euthanizing

and it just, you know, it made everybody

1311

01:10:51,494 --> 01:10:54,614

feel almost worse, I think, because

I'm like, why can't we do this?

1312

01:10:54,614 --> 01:10:55,844

Like, where's our support?

1313

01:10:55,844 --> 01:10:58,514

Like, he's doing these things,

like, why don't I have that?

1314

01:10:58,514 --> 01:10:58,844

So.

1315

01:11:00,074 --> 01:11:00,404

DrG: Yeah.

1316

01:11:00,404 --> 01:11:05,384

And when he, when he took over executive

director at Tops, um, one of the

1317

01:11:05,384 --> 01:11:08,984

first things that he did was euthanize

three dogs that had been there for a

1318

01:11:08,984 --> 01:11:11,024

long time that were aggressive dogs.

1319

01:11:11,474 --> 01:11:16,454

And it was kind of like one of the most

hypocritical things, you know, on his,

1320

01:11:16,514 --> 01:11:20,804

on his part because he's telling people

you're just not trying hard enough.

1321

01:11:21,164 --> 01:11:25,693

And then in his own shelter,

he did not even try.

1322

01:11:26,617 --> 01:11:29,797

Jenn Thomas: I didn't, I didn't

have a huge experience with him.

1323

01:11:29,797 --> 01:11:33,727

I felt like, because.

1324

01:11:35,202 --> 01:11:39,672

I wasn't a single person, that

I wasn't his demographic and

1325

01:11:39,672 --> 01:11:41,322

the do, does that make sense?

1326

01:11:41,622 --> 01:11:45,642

Like the, the, the, the ladies in

the rescue community that were single

1327

01:11:45,642 --> 01:11:47,802

were like, oh my gosh, she's so great.

1328

01:11:47,802 --> 01:11:49,362

And I think he enjoyed that.

1329

01:11:49,362 --> 01:11:49,422

I.

1330

01:11:49,662 --> 01:11:53,772

Attention and I, I didn't give

him that type of attention just

1331

01:11:53,772 --> 01:11:55,602

because I had my own agenda.

1332

01:11:55,602 --> 01:11:57,492

I was trying to get better at what I do.

1333

01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,520

DrG: When we talk about tops, it's

like, it's not just about his role

1334

01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:04,220

as a, as a shitty executive director.

1335

01:12:04,250 --> 01:12:07,220

It's about the animals that

were in there that he harmed.

1336

01:12:07,220 --> 01:12:08,660

It's about the money that he stole.

1337

01:12:08,660 --> 01:12:10,370

It's about the people that he lied to.

1338

01:12:10,670 --> 01:12:16,010

It's about the, the money that he

deflected outside of there, and then,

1339

01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:19,760

like, there's so much, there's so

much to everything that it is hard

1340

01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,520

to, to keep everything just organized.

1341

01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:25,550

There is no organization and that,

and that fits well with him because

1342

01:12:25,550 --> 01:12:26,990

he was not an organized human being.

1343

01:12:27,380 --> 01:12:27,590

Right.

1344

01:12:27,590 --> 01:12:28,790

He was like scattered.

1345

01:12:29,210 --> 01:12:29,665

So, yeah.

1346

01:12:29,684 --> 01:12:29,905

So

1347

01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:30,081

Det. Jim Conroy:

1348

01:12:30,081 --> 01:12:35,960

it's, he thrived in, in chaos and I, I

think that was a strategy of his, 'cause

1349

01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:40,100

he didn't like meetings, he didn't like

reports, he didn't like documentation.

1350

01:12:40,940 --> 01:12:41,240

And

1351

01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:41,241

Det. Jim Conroy:

1352

01:12:41,241 --> 01:12:42,740

I just think he figured it out.

1353

01:12:42,830 --> 01:12:48,500

If he just causes chaos that he,

he can get away with all of these

1354

01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:49,970

things and that, that works.

1355

01:12:51,125 --> 01:12:51,245

Randy Schmidt: I

1356

01:12:51,245 --> 01:12:55,925

think in fairness to Chris Dewitt, he

was just way over his head against a

1357

01:12:55,925 --> 01:12:58,565

very polished, very polished con man.

1358

01:12:59,075 --> 01:13:05,015

Um, and you know what I've heard he is

done, and what I know that he is done

1359

01:13:05,255 --> 01:13:10,445

and what I'm hearing might be done,

um, none of it really surprises me.

1360

01:13:10,595 --> 01:13:17,975

It's certainly kind of tarnished me

ever wanting to help at a rescue again.

1361

01:13:18,245 --> 01:13:22,355

And I know that's not right 'cause

again, they're for the dogs, but that

1362

01:13:22,355 --> 01:13:26,735

was such a, such a negative experience

that just went on and on and on.

1363

01:13:26,735 --> 01:13:30,275

you've seen it in little League

baseball, you've seen it in so many

1364

01:13:30,275 --> 01:13:34,895

nonprofits where people just can't

keep their hands out of the till.

1365

01:13:35,345 --> 01:13:39,245

The IRS, we had every dollar

pretty much accounted for.

1366

01:13:39,725 --> 01:13:44,045

And, and it's just a shame that they

get people into these nonprofits

1367

01:13:44,045 --> 01:13:46,985

and they just can't do what's right.

1368

01:13:47,315 --> 01:13:48,245

It, it's a shame.

1369

01:13:48,335 --> 01:13:49,535

And it, and it hurts.

1370

01:13:49,985 --> 01:13:50,465

It does.

1371

01:13:50,525 --> 01:13:51,425

It hurts everybody.

1372

01:13:51,785 --> 01:13:52,684

It hurts everybody.

1373

01:13:52,684 --> 01:13:55,625

It hurts donations It

hurts the whole thing.

1374

01:13:55,625 --> 01:13:55,955

You know?

1375

01:13:55,955 --> 01:13:56,525

It's a shame.

1376

01:13:59,255 --> 01:14:04,025

Shelter in Bell Fountain that needed

about $170,000 just to stay open.

1377

01:14:04,265 --> 01:14:08,460

Well, today the shelter is officially

closing, so what happens to the animals?