Holiday shopping in September isn't consumer demand - it's retailer conditioning. In this episode, hosts Todd Juneay and Kelly McGuire are joined by e-commerce strategist Matt Crincoli to examine:

• how "holiday creep" trained shoppers to wait for discounts
• why the Big Five shopping days are losing power
• how mobile commerce collapsed the purchase journey into impulse-driven seconds.

They explore the discount trap eroding brand value, the unsustainable returns culture Gen Alpha is rejecting, why most AI gift tools miss the mark, and what it takes to build authentic brand connections when promotional noise becomes overwhelming.

As consumer psychology shifts faster than retail strategy, this conversation reveals what's breaking beneath the surface, and what comes next for brands willing to compete on value instead of volume.

Key Topics:

• Holiday creep as behavioral conditioning
• Mobile commerce's impact on purchase psychology
• The discount death spiral and brand value erosion
• Returns culture's economic and environmental costs
• AI gift recommendations and what makes them work
• Strategic alternatives to constant promotion

Perfect for retail leaders, e-commerce teams, brand strategists, and anyone wondering why holiday shopping starts earlier and earlier.

Chapters

- 00:00:00 – 2025 holiday landscape

- 00:01:30 – Holiday creep and consumer training

- 00:04:10 – Novelty dilution in holiday shopping

- 00:05:20 – Big Five days versus early strategies

- 00:07:00 – End-caps create retail demand

- 00:10:00 – Psychology trumps price in shopping

- 00:12:10 – Discount wars harm brand value

- 00:14:20 – Mobile/social streamlines purchase path

- 00:16:30 – Shop Pay moves POS to phones

- 00:19:00 – Returns culture hurts sustainability

- 00:22:00 – Gen Alpha pushes back

- 00:27:30 – AI gift help needs good prompts

- 00:31:00 – Brand strategy for authentic connection

Links and Resources:

• Matt Crincoli on LinkedIn
• Kelly Maguire on LinkedIn
• Todd Juneau on LinkedIn
• Vuja Dé Digital 

Thanks so much for joining us this week. Want to subscribe to Contrary to Popular Opinion? Have some feedback you’d like to share? Connect with us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube to leave us a review!

obviously the social thing is, is important, but I, I feel like just

2

the point of sale is changing too.

3

And, and more and more people are checking

out via shop pay and safe credit cards

4

on their phones and stuff like that.

5

So I only see that trend

accelerating and getting more

6

important in the next couple years.

7

Kelly: Everyone.

8

Kelly McGuire with IDE Digital.

9

Excited to get into today's topic.

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Todd: Everybody, Todd Kelly's partner.

11

And we have Matt back with us again.

12

Who's our e-com retail media.

13

Strategy expert.

14

Thanks Matt.

15

Welcome.

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Matt: Thanks for.

17

Todd: it's September.

18

Apparently, according to some

of the information I'm reading,

19

people are already starting their

holiday shopping earlier every year.

20

So I guess pretty soon in like

June, back to school will be like

21

January and holiday and we'll just

like reverse our years entirely.

22

But for the sake of this conversation

Matt, you and Kelly, I got some

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just prompts to pick your brains

about holiday shopping and.

24

What's coming up?

25

So I thought we could touch base on some

stats that just came out about sort of the

26

growth projections for holiday shopping.

27

Some topics around mobile being.

28

Heavy dominance again in

shopping, but even more so.

29

Of course everybody's talking about ai.

30

So like to pick your brains on ai, sort

of powered personalization of shopping.

31

Like are people going to be asking Chad

GPT, Hey, my boyfriend or girlfriend

32

or husband or wife or my dog is this

or that, and giving them this long

33

prompt and like, what should I buy them?

34

And getting shopping lists,

AI powered shopping lists.

35

We know that the socials are

playing a big role in shopping now.

36

But some stuff Kelly and you and I

riffed about not that long ago, was

37

sort of speed and fulfillment and how

that's like becoming an expectation now.

38

You know, click and click and pick up,

click and shop, those kinds of things.

39

And we can talk about if, if we think

sustainability or, or eco-conscious brand.

40

Plays, have any, have any movement.

41

So, so here's the latest stats.

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E-commerce holiday sales are

projected to grow even bigger

43

than 2024, so that's good.

44

That means we're still seeing growth.

45

And some of those statistics are

saying that a percentage, upwards of

46

10 plus percent or 15 plus percent

are planning on starting their

47

shopping in September and October.

48

I dunno about you guys, but I have been

into Home Depot and places like that

49

and I'm already seeing holiday stuff

out in September, which blows my mind.

50

So I don't know.

51

What do you guys think about

the whole early shopping thing?

52

What do you think about when you

walk into a Target or a Home Depot

53

and they've got stuff out two and

a half, three months in advance?

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Kelly: I mean, this is something that

I, that I think about as far as the.

55

Timing of, of the holiday shopping period.

56

It's, I feel like it's something that's

evolved over time and it, for the longest

57

time, it was sort of a novelty around

that, that whole Black Friday and then

58

that turned into Cyber Monday and then

it stretched out into kind of the week

59

leading in, and now I feel like it's at

least the entire month of November and

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now you have to prep leading into it.

61

And it, I don't know.

62

To me, I've thought about this before

on whether or not it's lost sort

63

of the novelty or the, the trigger

effect that it was meant to have.

64

And now it's just become so expected

and I almost feel like you, there's

65

a, a downside to it where you're

training audiences in a way that is

66

not always beneficial, where, you

know, we've had this conversation with

67

clients on, if you're not careful,

you can kind of arbitrarily create

68

a waiting period of people like,

well, I'm just gonna wait to buy.

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And now you're sort of cutting

yourself off into this area.

70

And then if your offer is ever

not as good as expected, you can

71

really create your own problems.

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And so.

73

That's, that's one of the things that

I think about is how audiences and

74

consumers have sort of been trained

around this idea of holiday shopping

75

and how that shifted and evolved and,

and as it's gotten noisier, it's harder

76

to create novelty, but now there's

an expectation and delay that causes

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all these other problems to navigate.

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You know, I don't know what the

new sort of breakthrough is.

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I mean, you see it with, you know,

Amazon Prime Day and all these

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other things that come through.

81

I dunno.

82

It, it feels like it was a novelty and,

and it was a sales tactic at one time.

83

Then it became an, an expectation and

now I don't know what kind of the new

84

thing that'll create that novelty or

that that boost effect is gonna be, but

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I feel like we're on the precipice of

something kind of iteratively needing

86

to change around it to be practical.

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Matt: I agree.

88

I feel like it's been diluted.

89

It just keeps stretching

out further and further.

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And obviously there's a reason behind

it because consumers are purchasing

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these goods earlier and earlier.

92

But I still think as a brand or an

e-comm business, there's a way to

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sort of save some chips to go big.

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And the earlier you use those

chips, it's sort of like a a

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little bit of a bet to gamble.

96

Whereas if you want to really

capture some of that heightened

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demand for like the big five.

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Like Friday to cyber, like you

kind of can't use those too early.

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But also if you don't start

too early, you might lose out

100

on some of the early demand.

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But I also think it's

different for every business.

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I know we all, we talk about

that like in every podcast.

103

Like a lot of this stuff doesn't

apply broadly to the market.

104

But I, I was in ACE Hardware

last week and saw the same thing.

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I walked in there to buy

some like patio chairs for a.

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Harvest party where I'm like making

tomatoes from the end of the summer

107

and all the end caps were all like

Santa and Halloween kind of stuff.

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So I'm wondering also maybe in like the

commodity markets, like Home Depot and

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things like that, you just get people

who are just gonna put stuff in their

110

cart that might be very different from

like an e-comm business that sells a,

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a very specialized single category.

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Good.

113

So it might be different

114

for everybody.

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Kelly: impulse and gifting are

probably very different things when

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you think about it that way, right?

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Decoration for your own

situation or circumstance.

118

Versus forward planning, gifting versus

just the deal seekers, which is what cyber

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black credit and cyber money always was.

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I think that's a good point.

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Todd: So I, I have to ask the question

because I'm, slightly older of the bunch.

122

And so maybe a little bit more old school.

123

So Matt, when you saw that,

does it bother you that you're

124

trying to buy, buy like stuff?

125

'cause you're having this

like, you know, end of summer.

126

Harvest like thing, and you walk

in a store and there's Halloween,

127

Thanksgiving, Christmas stuff out.

128

I, I'll just save the record for me.

129

It pisses me off.

130

Like it's actually a bummer and a

turnoff for me because I don't need

131

to be, and I don't want to be thinking

about Thanksgiving and Christmas

132

in September, August or September.

133

Like, I want to enjoy the

seasonality of things and I

134

wanna start thinking about maybe.

135

Thanksgiving in like mid to late October

and Christmas and like, you know,

136

late October, maybe early November,

like when you're in the season in

137

the field and the vibe of things.

138

Now I walk into Home Depot and I'm

like four C, I'm like four holidays

139

ahead of like what season I'm in.

140

I'm like that, that's lame.

141

Like who, who's driving this

Is consumer demand driving?

142

This is, is like manufacturing

and fulfillment driving?

143

This is, or is it marketing

that's driving this?

144

Matt: That's a good last question.

145

They an they answered the first one.

146

It definitely bums me out.

147

I'm I was born December 23rd, so

I'm like a Christmas baby, so like

148

Christmas spirit and the holiday

spirit, Hanukkah, everything is

149

like, I just love it so much.

150

It's such a great time of year.

151

So when I see it this

early, it, it bums me out.

152

It just feels.

153

A little bit overly, maybe like consumery,

but it's, to answer your last question, I

154

think it's just people making, people love

it so much that they're willing to buy it

155

Todd: That's not true.

156

To interrupt that, the opinion that

you just gave, Matt, if I were to ask

157

anyone in my neighborhood or any circle

of people that I talk to on any given

158

day, they all say the same thing.

159

Oh, I hate how all this stuff is showing

up so early, and why are they doing this?

160

Why?

161

So if that

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Matt: Yeah.

163

Todd: potentially the general consensus

maybe of consumers or is that the small

164

percentage and the large percentage

is like, yeah, I wanna buy it now.

165

Get it on sale, get it early so

I don't have to think about it.

166

Kelly: Well, I can guarantee you

that bus, that a place like Home

167

Depot or a hardware, they're

in the business of maximize.

168

Using their retail space so

they're only using an end cap or,

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or putting that floor space out.

170

If there is demand or, or statistics

that say it is useful, but I do think it,

171

Todd: Are they creating the

demand by putting the stuff out?

172

Kelly: And that's what I'm saying is, is

there, there must be some statistic or

173

data that is saying that you can create

an arbitrary consumer demand, whether

174

that's fear of missing out or guilt or,

or you know, the opportunism of getting

175

ahead of it or, or things like that.

176

But they're all, they're only gonna do

that if, if people are buying it and

177

it's kind of creating it because that.

178

That's their job is to maximize their

floor space and their retail opportunity.

179

And so someone somewhere's job is

probably to analyze what is going

180

to drive the most profitability on

my end cap and my high value space.

181

And somewhere along the lines, statistics

probably said it was seasonality and

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I think that there might be a play.

183

The way that people value

that, that type of merchandise.

184

I've always said some of the best

businesses I think to be in are weddings

185

and babies and pets, because there's just

something about those things that people

186

don't have the same cost benefit analysis.

187

They don't have the same scrutiny on value

that they're getting in those things.

188

They'll just spend on their babies

and their pets and their weddings.

189

I feel like seasonality is the

same thing, like decorations.

190

And perception and sort

of the fun of that.

191

I don't think people scrutinize

the cost value as much as they

192

would almost all utilitarian items.

193

And so there's probably something to

be said about, you don't need this

194

decoration, but it's cute or it pops

and that might just tug your heart.

195

So I mean, it creates more

impulse and you'll sell more.

196

And there's so much psychology I

think that goes into those things.

197

Matt: I agree, and you

do always say that pets.

198

Kelly: It's a dream.

199

Matt: Yeah.

200

Kelly: I mean, I think they did.

201

I think like pet costumes is probably

the most profitable thing on planet.

202

. Matt: I also think there's, maybe because

it's so early and everyone's, Todd,

203

kinda what you brought up of, like,

everybody would say that maybe there's,

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that's like a almost a marketing angle.

205

Like I feel like the days in between

Christmas and New Year's, there's always

206

that like, get what you really want, which

is sort of like a little bit anti gifting.

207

You've just got gifted all this

stuff that you're probably gonna

208

return and get what you really want.

209

I wonder if there's some

sort of like pre-holiday hook

210

of brands sort of reacting.

211

The fact that we probably all

agree it's starting too early.

212

I'm not sure what it would be.

213

But it could be a fun little, like

pulse sort of like understanding

214

where consumers are at right now.

215

Everyone's probably feeling kind

of annoyed in the next month of

216

like everything starting too early.

217

Maybe there's a way to to

own that message in a way.

218

Todd: I, I agree.

219

I like, again, I don't, that's

why I asked you the question.

220

There's no one I know that I

talk to in my circle of, of

221

friends and family and whatever.

222

That is not irritated by all this

stuff showing up far too early.

223

So again, if that's the case, why

are companies, why are retailers

224

and why are brands doing it?

225

And Kelly, to your point, I think

that retailers are doing it because

226

if they put out Halloween stuff in

August, home Depot creates, you know,

227

a whole section of Home Depot as they

do with Halloween stuff in August.

228

Of course people are gonna go like, well,

I've gotta get it now because if I wait

229

until like September, all this stuff's

gonna be gone, so I have to buy it now.

230

But what's the point, right?

231

They could have put the same

merchandise out on September 25th,

232

and they still would've probably

sold it all by October 15th.

233

Why do you need to put it out in August?

234

We've, I mean, I don't know.

235

We need to keep kicking this

question around, but that's

236

Kelly: No, I, I think it, it opens

up a really interesting thought and I

237

think it, this is indicative of what

I would consider a, a broader problem,

238

challenge, use whatever you want to it.

239

There's an element of, I'm gonna

keep using kind of catchphrases

240

here, of keeping up with the

Jones' element to it, right?

241

Where it's like if Lowe's does it, home

Depot has to do it, or they miss out on

242

the customers that are gonna go on that.

243

And I think there's so much of that.

244

I think that happened with the

Black Friday, cyber Mondays.

245

Well, if they're gonna offer a

discount, I have to offer a discount.

246

If they're gonna extend it a

week, I have to extend a week.

247

There's almost this.

248

Self, self-fulfilling prophecy of

chasing everyone that tries to do

249

something unique and outside the norm.

250

And it creates that expectation.

251

It all goes back into the psychology

to me, which is, you know, then

252

you get trained Well, I'm not gonna

buy from that brand 'cause their

253

discount is in as good as that one.

254

Or they're not offering the same thing.

255

Or I'm gonna wait.

256

And it, I think it creates a problem where

everyone almost undercuts each other.

257

It's kind of like the price

wars that that would happen.

258

Where everyone ends up a little bit of

a loser because if you, you can't be

259

the one outlier if, if there's a wave

of momentum going there, because you'll,

260

you may stand on principle, but you're

gonna lose in reality, and it creates

261

this huge problem that goes through that.

262

And, you know, 'cause my, my first

thought when you guys are saying like.

263

Well, what, what is the norm?

264

What should you do?

265

I'm like, well, maybe the new way to

break through is to be contrarian and find

266

some unique way and be like, well, I'm

not gonna do Black Friday, cyber Monday.

267

I'm gonna do the month of December.

268

And it, it sounds good in theory, and

maybe that one piece of novelty might make

269

you break through, but if it were to work,

everyone's gonna follow the winner, right?

270

So let's say a, a really

clever brand did that.

271

Inevitably the next season, a bunch

of brands are gonna be like, well,

272

now we're gonna do discount December

instead of Black Friday, cyber Monday.

273

Like, everyone's gonna

chase the thing that works.

274

'cause everyone there's very few sort

of leaders, there's a lot of followers

275

into in that kind of learning those

lessons on those types of things.

276

Todd: So back to what

I said, it's marketing.

277

It's nothing more than marketing.

278

Kelly: Everything is mostly

marketing and some degree or another

279

that's, that's a reality of life

in so many ways, unfortunately.

280

Todd: Alright let's move

on to the next topic.

281

We beat that one up pretty good.

282

Let's talk mobile and social.

283

The, the use of the mobile device

and the interaction with social apps

284

and shopping, where do you guys think

that universalized this year versus

285

last year, do you think people are.

286

Way more mobile active and

social shopping active.

287

'Cause most people aren't shot.

288

You know, you can't shop from

TikTok on your laptop necessarily.

289

So it's very much a mobile,

very much a social platform.

290

You start to see it on Instagram,

TikTok and the likes where you start

291

seeing all the same sort of eTail

selling of the holiday shopping season.

292

Where do you guys sit personally

with your own shopping experiences?

293

How much of your shopping do

you buy from mobile and social

294

apps versus retail and online?

295

And what do you think

the general consensus is?

296

Kelly: I have an overall perspective,

but I mostly wanna set up Matt and,

297

your sort of perspective on what,

on what I'm gonna say because my

298

first thought around it, specifically

when it comes to mobile and social.

299

It dovetails off a little bit of the

previous conversation we had around

300

shipping expectations and things like

that, where I think the world is shifted

301

really heavily with an attention span

and a tolerance issue where people's

302

attention span and their ability to go

from discovery to purchase and their

303

tolerance of journeys and, and how easy

or hard it is to make a decision and

304

to process things and to go through

things is really, really short.

305

And so.

306

That's where I think mobile and

social becomes really important

307

because they are vehicles to go from.

308

I've never heard of this product to, I've

purchased it in the shortest way possible.

309

So I think why I, it's a little bit

of the Amazon effect although that's

310

a byproduct of it, but I think that

that attention span and that tolerance

311

for friction is at an all time low

or high, however you want to put it.

312

That's why I think those

become so important.

313

'cause they solve that attention

span and that friction tolerance

314

that is, I, I think is the biggest

hindrance to, to commerce in general

315

in this day and age, especially

as you go through the generations.

316

Todd: Educators, you, you come from the

worlds of, of the brands e-commerce,

317

Amazon, Walmart, like you've seen you.

318

You've seen the biggest of the big,

so where does mobile and social sit

319

with all of that from your experience?

320

Matt: I think like broadly

holiday is so competitive and

321

such an important moment in.

322

Digital commerce, that every

trend that's kind of happening in

323

digital . Commerce is just like

heightened during holiday, meaning

324

mobile is that much more important.

325

Personalization is that

much more important.

326

Social media is somewhat important.

327

Additionally, I think what's happening

is just you have this younger generation

328

that's getting older and is getting a

bigger share of all these categories.

329

So as they traditionally like use

social and checkout on mobile, the whole

330

market sort of is shifting that way.

331

But I also think what's happening

for me as a consumer is.

332

Just the ease of what's happening

on Shopify with Shop Pay.

333

It is so much easier to check

out on my phone that I've kind of

334

shifted most of my spending just

to mobile and like everything from

335

Discovery to actually checkout.

336

I used to be a consumer that would

get discovery, put together a list and

337

checkout on my desktop, but now I'm like

a hundred percent all the way through

338

with shop pay and things like that.

339

So, obviously the social thing is,

is important, but I, I feel like just

340

the point of sale is changing too.

341

And, and more and more people are checking

out via shop pay and safe credit cards

342

on their phones and stuff like that.

343

So I only see that trend

accelerating and getting more

344

important in the next couple years.

345

Todd: So, so you said you're

almost exclusively, you even said

346

a hundred percent mobile shopping.

347

Is that true?

348

Like, do you think this year for

like buying your Christmas gifts

349

and stuff like that, do you think

almost all of your shopping will

350

occur through a mobile device?

351

And how much, if that's

the case, how much does.

352

discovery usually play a role in either

things you're looking for or things that

353

the algorithm is suggesting you buy.

354

Matt: For me, it's, it's, it is my

purchase habit is almost a hundred

355

percent on mobile now, which I think I'm

prob I might be a little bit extreme, a

356

little bit of an outlier, but it is just

so easy and the brands that I like are

357

all typically on Shopify or have this

like accelerated checkout function, but.

358

I'm finding out about brands right now.

359

What's interesting is in the apparel

world, which is generally like where

360

most of my purchases are, especially for

gifts, I'm like a big apparel gifter.

361

Is everyone's putting out

their fall, winter, like

362

lookbooks and stuff right now.

363

So they're dropping all their stuff.

364

It's all on Instagram for me,

and I'm sort of finding out

365

and keeping awareness there.

366

But just the ease of purchasing is

just so much better on mobile for me

367

that I've, I've kind of completely

shifted over just doing things there.

368

Yeah.

369

Kelly: I have a, I have a

question on that experience in,

370

in kind of the, the perspective.

371

So kinda my commentary was around

ease of, of use and, and the

372

sort of the attention spa area.

373

But I almost wonder does making it

so easy to impulse buy and discover

374

and to check out, does that remove.

375

Too much of the scrutiny of the purchase.

376

And is this a good fit or is

this the brand that I like?

377

Or is the product in there where you

almost can buy too quickly, which

378

then contributes to the whole return

culture and all of the, and Todd,

379

you talked about sustainability

and the, the eco impacts of things.

380

And I know the whole return culture,

and again, Amazon's a big driver

381

of this problem is does that almost

create an inherent problem where it's

382

like, it's so easy and quick to buy?

383

The sort of commitment level that it takes

is maybe not there, that that almost is

384

gonna create its own problem down the

road where you, you buy so fast and you

385

return so easily and it's just like, I

don't know, like, is, does that water down

386

brand loyalty and scrutiny and you know,

the consumer's obligation to, to really

387

do their own research and believe in it?

388

Or is it just like, oh, I'll buy it

if it doesn't work, I'll return it.

389

It's no big deal.

390

And those types of things, like, I

dunno if what my question is in there,

391

but it, it sparks this thought of.

392

Does making it too easy to buy,

create ripple effects to the

393

entirety of the the ecosystem.

394

Matt: Definitely.

395

I mean, I would a hundred percent agree

with that, especially as you have the

396

brands that are sort of mobile first

and urgency first, like Temu and things

397

like that are just like, if you ever

get a Temu email, they're like the most

398

urgent need to do it now, kind of thing.

399

And the price is so low that I think

that's just maybe where, I don't

400

know if we wanna start talking about

culture, where culture's going,

401

but I definitely think all those

things do lead to more returns.

402

Sustainability packaging floating around.

403

So maybe there's gonna be some

movement that's anti that.

404

Back to marketing of like,

everyone's trying to hype you up

405

to buy everything now, everyone.

406

Wait, wait.

407

We're gonna do something

really special in a few months.

408

That might be, that might be

the angle, but I think you're

409

onto something for sure.

410

There.

411

I hope I'm, now, I'm, now I'm

questioning my habits though.

412

Maybe I like now I need to slow down.

413

Todd.

414

What, what, what you're,

what you're thinking.

415

Todd: I mean, I, I

think you're both right.

416

I think what Kelly's talking about

is an existential crisis within

417

the generations and the tech and

the involvement of technology.

418

So we can, we can ladder this up

to AI as the next conversation.

419

Or, or we can save that and talk

about you know, sustainability, speed,

420

fulfillment of shipping, things like that.

421

But yeah.

422

I, I have read some reports that there's

a movement amongst the, the real young

423

generations, like the sub 16 year olds

right now, they're shunning smartphones.

424

They are going back to analog

type, like dumb bones, if you will.

425

Because there is, there is a

part of culture and a part of

426

the, of the gen alpha, I guess.

427

I think they're younger than Gen

Z that are starting to see what's

428

happening with Gen Z and millennials,

and they don't like what they see.

429

And they're like, if this is where

our world's going and at this pace,

430

our generation is doomed because there

will be no reality to life anymore.

431

And that's why I think it's a

larger sort of existential crisis

432

of like, if you think about it,

it goes back to what I said.

433

Is it all marketing?

434

Yeah.

435

It seems to be all

marketing because it is a.

436

Marketing algorithmic machine.

437

That's driving our behavior now

culturally in a lot of ways.

438

And it's forcing people to shop and

buy in ways that is, you know, would

439

be abnormal just five to 10 years ago.

440

And I don't know from a sustainability

standpoint, from a, you know, just all

441

those kinds of things, is that really,

is it possible for us to continue going.

442

Down that scene.

443

And Patagonia produced a film last

year called Shit Anthropocene, and

444

it's about consumerism and it's about

mainly about the perel industry.

445

Matt and you and I both worked in the

perel and fashion industry and so,

446

you know, we know how environmentally

awful producing clothing is.

447

It's really, really bad and there are

landfills the size of San Diego that

448

have nothing but just clothing in them.

449

It's just, it's a disaster beyond

comprehension, but just, you know,

450

it's not, it's not out there so people

don't, you know, think about it or

451

know it, but I think culturally and

Matt, this is where you can expand.

452

I think we're at a very pivotal

moment where if, if things keep,

453

I mean, how much faster can we go?

454

How much easier can it

be to click and buy?

455

How much more boxes and,

and shipping can we sustain?

456

Before, before something breaks.

457

And is it, and is it an

environmental global break?

458

Is it a humanity break?

459

I don't know.

460

But to your point, Matt, culturally,

I'm starting to see this gen alpha

461

movement that's sort of anti, and I

think it's a very small fraction of gen

462

alpha that's sort of going this way.

463

But I, I don't know, culturally are,

are there other things that you guys

464

are seeing or hearing when it comes

to social and shopping and discovery?

465

I mean, look for.

466

We have a social commerce tech company

that we are in startup mode on.

467

So what are we doing?

468

We're empowering and enabling people

to discover products and buy them

469

with far less you know, clicks or, or

taps or anything on a mobile device.

470

I mean, we are literally,

Kelly, we're making what Matt

471

is saying, he's a consumer of.

472

We're making it just that much easier

for people to just go see, see us,

473

see something in their feed, go.

474

I wanna buy that.

475

And it's four taps and it's,

and it's on their Apple Pay or

476

their Google Pay and they're out

and it's being shipped to them.

477

But to your point, Kelly,

they go, oh, and it shows up.

478

That's not really what I

thought it was gonna be.

479

It's not really what I want.

480

And I didn't really research it.

481

I just bought it 'cause it was

there in my feed and it was easy.

482

I'll just return it.

483

Like, what, what, how, how

is that changing culture

484

and the impact of the world?

485

Kelly: Yeah, I mean, in theory the hope

is that there's authenticity behind

486

what's driving that connected to,

you know, the creators and there's,

487

there's problems with everything.

488

I mean, as, as you talk

through it, I mean, I, I agree.

489

It's a, a challenge, but I have

2, thoughts of mind on it where.

490

I think, you know, it can that genie

be put back in the bottle, right?

491

Like, it's not like, you know, yes, you,

you have movements for good and change

492

all these things, but the reality is, is

if marketing works and people make money

493

doing it, someone's always gonna do it.

494

And they're always gonna fill

that vacuum in that void.

495

And, and it works for a reason.

496

It's not suddenly gonna stop working.

497

And that's really hard.

498

I mean, that doesn't

mean we shouldn't try.

499

It doesn't mean that

change isn't good, but.

500

How realistic is it?

501

Like, you know, progress and

movement forward, kind of

502

that momentum always happens.

503

And then the other side of my mind is

like, I feel like the same alarmist thing

504

that we're saying right now, which I.

505

Believe in and, and buy into.

506

It's been said forever, you know,

going back to the industrial

507

revolution and people saying that's

gonna be the end of the world.

508

And I saw this funny anti, you know,

you say that thing about young kids and,

509

and smartphones and I, I saw a funny

anecdote or I heard, heard it around,

510

you know, there was a time in history

when people thought reading was too much

511

for kid and they kids and they said it

was reading fever and these kids are

512

gonna be corrupted by reading too much.

513

And that was the technology of the day.

514

That was too much.

515

And so there's always.

516

A certain degree of it.

517

So what's reality, what's progress,

what can be done about it?

518

What's realistic?

519

I, I don't have answers all these

things, but it's, it's an interesting

520

exercise to uncover it and to think

about it and to come to some of

521

your own conclusions around it.

522

I think all you can do is do better.

523

Todd: let's talk about AI then.

524

So, I dunno about you guys,

but I'm a, I'm a pretty daily

525

chat GPT user or other uh, ais.

526

And I personally find it incredibly

more beneficial and valuable to train.

527

The AI to, you know, do certain

things or think certain ways.

528

Like for for sure we have it all.

529

We each have our own versions of our

AI engines we're using for work, and

530

we have it trained on things that

we're thinking about for marketing and

531

strategy and all these kinds of things.

532

And, and then I have, you

might have other ones for your

533

hobbies or whatever, like I do.

534

I have not tried it, but I

intend on trying this year to

535

go through a series of prompts.

536

See if, 'cause I'm a terrible

Christmas shopper I'll just

537

state that for the record.

538

Unless my wife or kids tell me exactly

what they want, if I don't get a Santa's

539

list, I am terrible at buying things.

540

So I'm gonna try this year to see

if I can surprise myself and maybe a

541

family member by using AI to help me.

542

Come up with conjure up a, a, a new

item gift to get somebody, and I'm

543

gonna have to tell it like they're like

this, they like these kinds of things.

544

They're in this stage of

their life or whatever.

545

Like, I'm gonna try and train it with

everything I can feed it so that it

546

will give me back the best Christmas

gift I could possibly ever buy.

547

Do you think that's real

or not possible yet?

548

And how many people do you

think are gonna do that?

549

Matt: I'm actually prompting

my cat GPT right now on best

550

sweatpants for former Pro surfer.

551

Runs a digital marketing agency

552

of very specific recommendations,

so I absolutely think people are

553

gonna be using this way, way more.

554

I actually haven't thought about

that use case of thinking through

555

gifting and things like that, but.

556

Maybe that's for another podcast,

but I mean, brands are gonna need

557

to start thinking through how to

optimize against these engines and,

558

and populate on these lists too.

559

Kelly: I also think you're giving,

giving the ai AI a little bit

560

too much credit there, right?

561

There's always the argument around AI

is only as good as the prompting and

562

the inputs you put into it, right?

563

And so your ability.

564

To dissect and describe who you're

buying for and, and provided the training

565

materials of who is that person, what

do they like, what is all of that,

566

and to iterate and to come through

that, the better you are at that.

567

It, you know, I look at the I, I look

at AI as not kind of replacing it.

568

I look at it as an enhancement because

if I'm really good about thinking

569

through what I'm teaching it or

training it or guiding it through,

570

that's gonna improve those outputs.

571

And so it's still.

572

You know, it's a processing engine that's

basically taking a lot of fragmented

573

thoughts and the human brain works in very

fragmented ways and it's organizing it.

574

So if you're really

good around, who is it?

575

What have I bought them in the past?

576

What are their emotions like?

577

The deeper you go into that

and the more it kind of.

578

Prompts you and guides you to

give inputs, then it's going

579

to consolidate it together.

580

And I think it's really cool when

you think about it that way, but it's

581

still a byproduct of your knowledge and

history and basis on that person that

582

you're trying to seek that output for.

583

And if used that way, I think

it could be really cool.

584

Todd: Right, which is why

I said for family, right?

585

So for my wife, I can clearly tell

Chad, GBT, everything it needs to

586

know about my wife and her age and

what she's into and what she likes,

587

and you know, things like that.

588

I can say, you know, I've gotten

her jewelry from this designer

589

before and she really likes it.

590

Tell me things.

591

So like I'm going to, this year as

an experiment, I'm going to see if

592

chat, GBT, I'm gonna input every fa

my wife and both my kids and my dog.

593

And I'm gonna tell it everything it

needs to know about my, my family,

594

and I'm gonna see if it will give me

back, like legit real shopping sort of

595

suggestions or ideas to not, you know,

to enhance what, what I'm gonna go get.

596

So,

597

Kelly: really quick though.

598

You know what the irony of this

conversation go going back around is it

599

is at the end of the day, the system still

needs a point of reference to give you

600

suggestions on that prompt and guess how

it's gonna prioritize what it brings back.

601

Quality of marketing, of brands that are

in the market and the how much social's

602

being talked about these brands and

how much exists in SEO and all of that.

603

That's how it's gonna prioritize and

pick, these are the best sweatpants

604

or this is the best jewelry.

605

So it all comes back around to marketing.

606

Todd: That's why I started this off

saying, is it all just marketing?

607

Are we all just victims of marketing

tricks that get better and better every

608

year or they just evolve every year?

609

Alright.

610

We've said a lot about holiday shopping.

611

We talked about mobile and we've talked

about AI and we've talked about sales

612

are supposed to grow, which is good

for brands and companies, and maybe

613

it's not good for the landfills and

the ecosystem of of the world because.

614

Stuff gets thrown away and

returned and blah, blah, blah.

615

but any, any final comments

on any of this today?

616

Matt: No, I'm excited to talk more about

AI and, and things like that, especially

617

how brands can maybe leverage it to

cut corners during a busy, busy time.

618

But I'd say happy

holidays to, to everybody.

619

It's already starting.

620

So.

621

Kelly: Happy holidays in September.

622

There we go.

623

Byproduct of it.

624

Todd: Ah.

625

what do you, what do you

626

Kelly: I mean, for me it's, you

know, again, we, we've said it a few

627

times, everything's about marketing.

628

I would add in psychology to that.

629

Right?

630

It's all, at the end of the

day, it's human behavior.

631

It's psychology.

632

It's, it's.

633

How, how is that stuff being

either influenced or manipulated

634

or, you know, leveraged you know,

whatever you want to talk about.

635

I, I, I think it's all interesting.

636

I mean, these are the things that,

you know, we're faced with every day.

637

We support clients in reaching

their, their customers and driving

638

the behaviors that we want, and, you

know, trying to guide them to make

639

the best decisions in the realities

and what's coming down the road.

640

I think that's all we can all

do is, you know, what, how

641

does AI play a role in that?

642

How does holiday promos

play a role in that?

643

How do websites play a role in that?

644

These are all just variables in, in

getting that human behavior to, to

645

go in a direction that I don't know

that, that we need to influence it,

646

which is an interesting existential

thing to think about it in that

647

context, but maybe that's, maybe that's

oversimplifying or overcomplicating it.

648

Todd: it is I'm not gonna say

happy holidays because it.

649

Not holiday time.

650

It is 76 78 degrees in San Diego

right now, it's still summer, so

651

I'm gonna say happy towards the end

of summer and maybe start thinking

652

about your fall coming up because

Damnit, it is not holiday season yet.

653

Matt?

654

No way.

655

Not yet.

656

Kelly: I'm gonna go look

into Pet Halloween costumes.

657

Matt: Yeah.

658

Todd: All right, boys,

we'll talk again soon.

659

Thank you.