Plato: Life and Influence (the History of Philosophy, part 12)

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All right.

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We're back.

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Hey, Daniel.

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Good afternoon, Nathan.

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Glad to see you again.

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Yeah.

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Excited to record some podcasts before

I head out on paternity leave here.

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Right.

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Hopefully get a couple in

the bank for editing Yeah.

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So this will be good.

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And we have finally made

it to drum roll, please.

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Plato.

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It's been a long time coming.

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That's right.

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The Plato.

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The Plato.

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Not Plato.

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No, I was telling Nate previously,

I could tell I don't announce yet my

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words very clearly because when the

transcript comes through, the written

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transcript of all the, of the audio,

Um, the AI always puts it as Play Doh,

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like the child's play thing there.

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But no, not that kind of.

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So not Play Doh.

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No, Play Doh.

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Unfortunately.

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Yeah, that would be fun to talk about,

the philosophical meanings of Play Doh.

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Yeah, the malleability of material, so.

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See you're already halfway there.

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Hey, that's that's that's my gift

Maybe we'll come back to that because

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we could use that as illustrating

some aspect of plato's thought nice.

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Yeah, so, What are these next

few episodes going to be?

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All right So i've only got this

one and the next one sketched out

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I haven't really written the script

for either one, so Well, we might

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go back and forth a little bit.

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But today we're going to talk about the

influence of plato And then we're going

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to talk about his life and then his works.

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So that's the episode today.

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Kind of the background so we know the guy,

what he's talking about, what he's doing.

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And then next week we're going to

have a little bit longer episode

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about the big idea of Plato, the one

that has influenced Western thought.

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More than any other philosophical

idea in my opinion at least.

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Very nice.

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So that's a little bit of a cliffhanger.

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Yeah, I'm giving a little tease there.

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I like it.

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I like it.

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So Plato.

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So Plato's a disciple of Socrates.

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Yes, and He is in Athens.

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Yes.

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He is in Athens.

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Actually, let's back up.

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Before we talk about his life, let's

just talk about why he's so important,

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why we're talking about him so much.

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Okay.

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We're going to devote three to

four, maybe even five episodes.

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Let's, let's explain why.

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So, he is, in my opinion, the most

influential philosopher of them all.

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Maybe rivaled only by

Aristotle, his pupil.

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Okay, so that's a, that's a big statement.

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It is, and not everyone's

going to agree with that.

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I, from what I've seen, a lot of people

agree, at least influential in the West.

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Seems like that's pretty I should

clarify, that's what I mean, yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, that's not that

contentious of a, Well, maybe.

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Probably some people would argue against

it, but when you look at European and

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American, Canadian history, Australian,

all the thought that's within that

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culture, I think Plato influences

more than any other philosopher.

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And maybe any other

person outside of Jesus.

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So can you I don't know if I

could defend that but maybe.

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Okay.

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Can you share a few of the reasons why

you think he's so influential and how

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he's shaped our culture or society?

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Yeah, let me read a quote

by Alfred North Whitehead.

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He was an American philosopher and

mathematician and he has a famous

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quote that people, that philosophers

argue about whether it's hyperbole

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or accurate, but he said this.

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The safest general characterization

of the European philosophical

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tradition is that it consists of

a series of footnotes to Plato.

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I do not mean the systematic scheme

of thought which scholars have

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doubtfully extracted from his, writings.

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I allude to the wealth of general

ideas scattered through them.

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Now, there are so many ideas, but

in particular, the ones we're going

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to look at next week, I think are

going to really change the history of

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philosophy, the history of thought.

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and a part of this is involved

with this idea that he is really

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the first great systematizer.

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Systematizer?

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Yeah.

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Okay, what does that mean?

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All right.

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So he is, the first one to really

bring together all the different

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thinkers and all their different themes

from the past in Greece and, bring

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together all the different thinkers

and all the different thoughts.

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from the previous philosophers

and then put them together.

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So he's synthesizing them, but he's

also expanding the breadth of that.

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So some of the others, most of

them talked about metaphysics

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and they're trying to figure out,

okay, what is reality consist of?

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A few of them talked about knowledge,

theory of knowledge, but not very deeply.

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And then a very few, uh, the Stoics and a

couple of the others talked about ethics.

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The Stoics, for them it was an ethics

more of personal self advancement.

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Plato is the first to build a system

where all those areas, those three big

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areas of metaphysics, what is real, or

ontology, epistemology, what is true

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and how can we know it, and then ethics,

what should we value, what should we

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do, what should we choose, those three

big areas are all brought together.

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He's teaching on all three.

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And he integrates them.

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So the epistemology is dependent

and tied into the metaphysics

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and the ethics as well.

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So he's the first one.

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Aristotle, you could argue,

does much of the same thing.

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Kant certainly does that

much later on, the German

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philosopher in the 18th century.

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But Plato is the first one, and arguably

the one who does it most successfully,

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in the sense of having a coherent system.

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, you open a, introductory

philosophy textbook and it's going

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to organize kind of similarly,

right, around your metaphysics,

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your epistemology, your ethics.

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And, and so, more modern philosophers

will maybe take one of those

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categories and specialize in them,

or maybe even a subcategory of those

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categories and specialize in them.

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Is that right?

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But he's like foundational because.

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He and Aristotle and then Immanuel Kant

and others have kind of laid groundwork

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for an entire system of philosophy.

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Am I thinking about that correctly?

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Okay.

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So he, is the first great systematizer

and he's still one of the most prominent.

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Okay.

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So if you look at systematizers in the

history of philosophy, I think you would

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say Plato, Aristotle, Thomas, Spinoza.

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Thomas Aquinas.

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Yeah, Thomas Aquinas.

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Okay.

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Spinoza, although his wasn't

quite, to me, as successful.

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Other people might differ.

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And then, uh, Kant.

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But, I mean, there's a sixteen

hundred year gap between Right.

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Aquinas and Aristotle.

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so there wasn't much medieval

Well, almost that much, yeah.

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Medieval, uh, significant

medieval philosophers?

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Well, there were, but

they were mainly English.

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building their ideas either

on Plato or Aristotle.

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Okay, gotcha.

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Yeah, so Augustine was an

original thinker, but he's still

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within the Platonist tradition.

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I see, I see.

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Obviously, there were many other original

thinkers, not as influential as Augustine,

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but they're still within those traditions.

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Okay, I gotcha.

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So those guys are most influential

because they're, they have kind of

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unique foundational perspectives.

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Yes.

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So Plato's going to be

uniquely different from Kant.

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Yes.

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And Thomas is going to be

different from Spinoza.

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Right.

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Okay.

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Now Thomas is going to rely on Aristotle

as well, but he also expands it and

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Christianizing it so much that it's

fair to talk about him separately.

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Okay.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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So we're, I mean, these are big,

broad, sweeping categories and

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there's, it makes sense why we're

going to spend so much time on Plato.

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Yes.

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And the other reason is that, we,

we talked about this a little bit

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last time, You can argue, and I

think pretty successfully, that

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Christian theology, which develops

in the 2nd and 3rd century A.

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D., is really a combination of

Biblical revelation and Greek, and

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particularly, Platonic thought.

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because of that, Plato has a profound

influence on Christian theology,

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and even how Christians who aren't

theologians think about things.

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In particular, the soul, and the

afterlife, and the body, and,

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um, and so many other things.

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Plato is foundational to

Christian, Christian theology.

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Am I thinking about this correctly?

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A lot of that is these,

Hellenized, or even Greek, people.

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who hear the message of Christianity,

the message of Jesus, and have to

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synthesize that message with what

they're already thinking about, and

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try to fit it into the categories.

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I mean, of course, there's going to

be differences, and it's going to

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challenge that, but a lot of that is

just kind of natural, that they're

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trying to fit into their preconceived

categories of how, how life works.

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Yes.

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So kind of two things, and

you're on to one of them.

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As the church becomes less Jewish and

more Gentile, It's going to be bringing

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in people who have been brought up

in the Greco Roman way of thought.

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And really, Rome adopts more than

replaces the Greek ideals of culture and

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philosophy, So, it's going to be coming

to people who are already shaped by that.

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But secondly, once the church begins to

get established and they interact with

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other worldviews, they want to be able to,

as much as possible, show the intellectual

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respectability of Christianity.

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And the way they're gonna do that is

say, look, it fits in with what we

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all believe about the big issues of

life, about these philosophical issues.

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So there, it's like, uh, It's

like Paul at Mars Hill, right?

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I mean, you guys are, you guys are close.

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Yeah, that's a pretty good example.

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But here's, but let me, let me

tell you about this God that

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you say is the unnamed God.

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I know who that is.

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Right.

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So he kind of honors them in that they

have some sort of spiritual impulse,

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but he takes them beyond their thinking

in order to show how Jesus and, you

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know, Christianity flows from the

Jewish thought and that kind of thing.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Okay.

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So some of the very earliest churches.

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church fathers and church theologians felt

like God must have been working through

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Plato and the other Greek philosophers

Because they got so much right.

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It's so much that fits in beautifully

with how they understood the message of

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the Bible That is an interesting idea.

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Yeah.

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No others like Others would get

others would question that point.

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Yes what does Athens have to do with

Jerusalem, you know, that's, that's

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an interesting thought experiment

for all the listeners to see maybe

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the Holy Spirit can work outside

of the scriptures or the church.

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Sure, yeah, and that's one thing

I've kind of wrestled with my

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own, I've come to realize what I'm

just talking about, that Christian

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theology is shaped by Greek thought.

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And the question I wrestled in with

is, okay, how much of that is a good

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thing or even a God given thing?

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And how much of that is really

a perversion of biblical thought

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and the biblical worldview.

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And I could see, you

could argue it either way.

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Um, depending on, you know,

how you interpret things, but

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certainly God could do that.

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That's certainly within his providence.

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Or it could be a wrong turn that

we we need to make a U turn on.

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Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

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it certainly seems true that the

Greek thought, may be paved the

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way for Christianity to have some

connection points in their culture.

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But yeah, whether or not that's a good

thing or it's something that we need to

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Reject is an interesting question as well.

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Okay, so Plato Plato should

we jump back to Plato?

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Yeah, let's jump back after that long

digression But I mean, that's the heart

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of the podcast here is understanding

how these things intersect and how

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they intersected back then because they

certainly it's the Same thing today, you

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00:11:35,579 --> 00:11:37,469

know Christianity and culture still right?

240

00:11:37,869 --> 00:11:40,119

There's still that ongoing

conversation going on.

241

00:11:40,219 --> 00:11:40,469

Yeah

242

00:11:42,803 --> 00:11:46,213

so tell us about his life a little bit.

243

00:11:46,333 --> 00:11:47,443

What do we know about his?

244

00:11:47,443 --> 00:11:52,676

biography Well, there were a lot of

legends that grew after this, and so

245

00:11:52,676 --> 00:11:55,686

we have to disentangle some of these,

but the bare facts that we know.

246

00:11:56,099 --> 00:11:58,979

he was born in 425, possibly 426.

247

00:11:59,269 --> 00:12:04,789

He was an Athenian, and he came apparently

from a wealthy, aristocratic family.

248

00:12:05,789 --> 00:12:08,489

Uh, his real Aristarchalese.

249

00:12:08,934 --> 00:12:09,304

Really?

250

00:12:09,384 --> 00:12:09,674

Yeah.

251

00:12:09,994 --> 00:12:10,844

I'm not sure I'm saying that right.

252

00:12:11,134 --> 00:12:11,744

Aristarchals.

253

00:12:14,114 --> 00:12:14,964

Starklace.

254

00:12:15,064 --> 00:12:15,804

Yeah, I'm one of those.

255

00:12:16,624 --> 00:12:19,314

Yeah, I mean I've got a lot of questions

about that, but I'm sure you don't know.

256

00:12:20,604 --> 00:12:21,084

No, I don't.

257

00:12:21,085 --> 00:12:24,993

But that was what one

writer said about him.

258

00:12:24,993 --> 00:12:29,543

It's not clear, but it is clear that

his name is very close to the Greek

259

00:12:29,543 --> 00:12:32,753

word Platon, which means broad.

260

00:12:33,493 --> 00:12:37,700

So a lot of people have speculated that

it's a nickname for that he acquired

261

00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:41,600

either because he was broad and

burly, that's what one writer said, or

262

00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,840

because of the breadth of his teaching.

263

00:12:43,970 --> 00:12:44,350

Hmm.

264

00:12:44,570 --> 00:12:45,260

That's interesting.

265

00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:45,530

Yeah.

266

00:12:46,060 --> 00:12:49,500

So again, that part's not clear,

but probably it's a, it's a

267

00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:51,050

nickname referring to one of those.

268

00:12:51,706 --> 00:12:53,476

yeah, he's born in Athens, 425.

269

00:12:53,946 --> 00:12:57,176

He, was one of the people who

was influenced and listened

270

00:12:57,176 --> 00:12:58,886

to firsthand, Socrates.

271

00:12:58,896 --> 00:13:00,176

He did a little bit of travel.

272

00:13:00,336 --> 00:13:05,520

So, it's a little bit unclear, those

middle years, but then around 388 B.

273

00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,800

C., he founded a school in

Athens to teach young men.

274

00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:11,620

Now this is interesting.

275

00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:17,920

So it was located in a grove outside

of Athens, and this grove was named

276

00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,080

after a Greek hero named Akademos.

277

00:13:21,026 --> 00:13:23,573

So the grove, then, was called Akademia.

278

00:13:24,703 --> 00:13:25,183

Oh.

279

00:13:25,283 --> 00:13:28,933

And his school then was called, well

in English we'd call it the Academy.

280

00:13:29,713 --> 00:13:30,133

Whoa.

281

00:13:30,293 --> 00:13:34,380

Yes, and of course we get our words

academic and academia from that.

282

00:13:34,770 --> 00:13:35,170

Wow.

283

00:13:35,316 --> 00:13:37,340

that's a good, trivia question there.

284

00:13:37,850 --> 00:13:39,740

I like the little lesson in etymology.

285

00:13:40,220 --> 00:13:44,973

So he's, so, okay, so he's in his

forties and he, starts the school.

286

00:13:45,003 --> 00:13:45,493

Okay, then what?

287

00:13:46,573 --> 00:13:47,783

And that, well, this school.

288

00:13:47,783 --> 00:13:48,773

Okay, sorry, I, yeah.

289

00:13:48,773 --> 00:13:49,163

No, that's fine.

290

00:13:49,633 --> 00:13:53,520

you could argue that this school is

actually the first European university.

291

00:13:53,593 --> 00:13:56,443

Because it doesn't just teach

philosophy, but mathematics,

292

00:13:56,823 --> 00:14:01,103

astronomy, he even teaches some

biology and botany, apparently.

293

00:14:01,713 --> 00:14:04,723

And then he, led the academy,

but he also lectured.

294

00:14:05,533 --> 00:14:06,533

Now here's the deal, though.

295

00:14:06,980 --> 00:14:08,330

We don't have those lectures.

296

00:14:09,950 --> 00:14:11,140

Wow, what if we did?

297

00:14:11,230 --> 00:14:12,070

I know so cool.

298

00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:15,960

Yeah, people have speculated about

that that maybe What he does in the

299

00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,340

lectures is a little bit different

than what he does in the dialogues

300

00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:20,400

But hmm, there's no evidence for that.

301

00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,336

It's just speculation but with Aristotle

You actually have the lecture notes

302

00:14:25,366 --> 00:14:29,506

recorded by his students that have been

written down preserved published So when

303

00:14:29,506 --> 00:14:33,306

you read Aristotle you're reading the

notes that he gave to or the lectures

304

00:14:33,306 --> 00:14:36,781

he gave to the students You When you

read Plato, you're reading what he

305

00:14:36,781 --> 00:14:39,151

wrote more for a popular audience.

306

00:14:39,511 --> 00:14:40,031

Oh.

307

00:14:40,835 --> 00:14:41,105

Hmm.

308

00:14:41,135 --> 00:14:43,958

So, how does that, Well, it

makes him a lot more readable.

309

00:14:44,568 --> 00:14:45,578

Yeah, I guess that's true.

310

00:14:46,238 --> 00:14:48,278

And, and Aristotle was one

of his students, right?

311

00:14:48,298 --> 00:14:48,568

Yes.

312

00:14:49,128 --> 00:14:51,008

So, so Plato's got the school.

313

00:14:51,761 --> 00:14:52,681

Socrates didn't.

314

00:14:53,111 --> 00:14:53,431

No.

315

00:14:54,081 --> 00:14:56,241

So, this is first, first university here.

316

00:14:56,251 --> 00:14:56,271

Yeah.

317

00:14:56,272 --> 00:14:56,346

Yeah.

318

00:14:56,996 --> 00:14:59,096

Aristotle's one of the students,

and then Aristotle goes.

319

00:14:59,096 --> 00:15:02,166

Does he go and end up teaching

and lecturing at that same?

320

00:15:02,226 --> 00:15:03,166

No, he starts his own school.

321

00:15:03,166 --> 00:15:04,166

Starts his own school, okay.

322

00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:05,210

the Lyceum.

323

00:15:05,770 --> 00:15:06,700

Lyceum, okay.

324

00:15:06,990 --> 00:15:08,290

I forget what that means,

I'll have to look it up.

325

00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:16,070

so what we have then are not his lectures,

but rather about 35 or 36 dialogues.

326

00:15:16,170 --> 00:15:17,260

So they're separate books.

327

00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:19,856

They're usually short,

not tremendously short.

328

00:15:19,876 --> 00:15:22,406

You could probably read

one in three to four hours.

329

00:15:23,188 --> 00:15:27,248

Some of these, there are a few

where the authorship is disputed,

330

00:15:27,668 --> 00:15:29,658

but for the most part they're not.

331

00:15:29,898 --> 00:15:31,198

We, we have the real deal.

332

00:15:31,778 --> 00:15:35,418

So it's also the first philosopher that we

have this wealth of material from as well.

333

00:15:35,418 --> 00:15:35,828

Yeah.

334

00:15:36,068 --> 00:15:36,408

Wow.

335

00:15:36,758 --> 00:15:37,008

Yeah.

336

00:15:37,398 --> 00:15:39,728

And those dialogues, Socrates

is the main character, right?

337

00:15:40,198 --> 00:15:40,508

Yes.

338

00:15:40,528 --> 00:15:40,918

Usually.

339

00:15:40,918 --> 00:15:41,248

Most of them.

340

00:15:41,318 --> 00:15:41,668

Okay.

341

00:15:41,688 --> 00:15:42,848

Especially in the early ones.

342

00:15:42,948 --> 00:15:44,758

And they kind of develop

the Socratic method.

343

00:15:44,848 --> 00:15:45,108

Yes.

344

00:15:45,418 --> 00:15:45,698

Okay.

345

00:15:45,788 --> 00:15:48,588

I'm, I'm putting the pieces together

here in real time ladies and gentlemen.

346

00:15:48,588 --> 00:15:50,298

Yep.

347

00:15:50,298 --> 00:15:50,313

Cool.

348

00:15:51,113 --> 00:15:53,853

All right, so that's just

the bare outline of his life.

349

00:15:53,883 --> 00:15:56,343

His life is obviously not as

important as his teaching.

350

00:15:56,343 --> 00:15:58,253

He didn't do anything wondrous.

351

00:15:58,253 --> 00:16:00,226

He wasn't martyred like Socrates.

352

00:16:00,626 --> 00:16:03,776

Uh, but he was an amazing teacher

and communicator, that's for sure.

353

00:16:04,546 --> 00:16:07,716

I mean, you could argue, some people

would argue that he actually started,

354

00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:11,876

as, someone interested in literature

instead of philosophy, because he's

355

00:16:11,876 --> 00:16:17,156

writing so well, his books read so well,

that they feel maybe he started that way

356

00:16:17,166 --> 00:16:19,053

and then kind of went into philosophy.

357

00:16:19,923 --> 00:16:20,963

Again, that's speculation.

358

00:16:21,393 --> 00:16:26,666

Do we, do we have any notes of

his teaching on, mathematics

359

00:16:26,666 --> 00:16:28,456

or botany or any of that stuff?

360

00:16:28,456 --> 00:16:31,056

Or he's, he's pretty much

remembered as a philosopher?

361

00:16:31,866 --> 00:16:33,706

Yes, just as a philosopher.

362

00:16:34,126 --> 00:16:39,036

Now, according to, uh, tradition

above, the academy there was a sign

363

00:16:39,206 --> 00:16:44,121

that said somehow, Uh, let none enter

here who do not know mathematics.

364

00:16:44,751 --> 00:16:44,991

Hmm.

365

00:16:45,651 --> 00:16:49,564

And this was because probably, unlike

the Pythagoreans, remember them?

366

00:16:49,614 --> 00:16:50,024

Mm hmm.

367

00:16:50,064 --> 00:16:54,621

He's not really basing his philosophy on

mathematics, but rather that seemed to be,

368

00:16:54,621 --> 00:17:00,892

this totally intellectual exercise, study

mathematics, that he, he really valued and

369

00:17:00,952 --> 00:17:05,342

prized as you, this is one way you have to

learn to think with your mind logically.

370

00:17:05,342 --> 00:17:05,632

Hmm.

371

00:17:05,632 --> 00:17:05,922

Hmm.

372

00:17:05,922 --> 00:17:06,242

Hmm.

373

00:17:07,252 --> 00:17:07,612

Wow.

374

00:17:07,882 --> 00:17:08,092

Yeah.

375

00:17:08,842 --> 00:17:10,492

Anyway, so that's his life.

376

00:17:11,092 --> 00:17:13,854

Now last thing I'm gonna talk

about today is the difference

377

00:17:13,854 --> 00:17:15,444

between Plato and Platonism.

378

00:17:16,140 --> 00:17:16,589

Yes.

379

00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:16,950

Yeah.

380

00:17:16,950 --> 00:17:20,430

So sometimes people talk about the

difference between Calvin and Calvinism.

381

00:17:20,579 --> 00:17:20,670

Mm-Hmm.

382

00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:24,300

, the idea that his followers were

more Calvinistic than Calvinism,

383

00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:25,380

you know, things like that.

384

00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:30,593

Well, with Plato, well, you kind of have

that, but not the, quite the same way.

385

00:17:31,553 --> 00:17:34,612

There are really three

different kinds of Platonism.

386

00:17:34,672 --> 00:17:39,112

There's one that is Plato himself, so

what he taught or what he wrote down

387

00:17:39,442 --> 00:17:41,062

in the dialogues during his lifetime.

388

00:17:41,908 --> 00:17:43,588

that's Platonism in its purest form.

389

00:17:44,684 --> 00:17:48,644

and then the second form is

usually called Middle Platonism.

390

00:17:49,362 --> 00:17:53,226

And this is from around

90 BC to two 50 ad.

391

00:17:54,361 --> 00:17:58,491

And this is primarily from people

who taught or led in the academy.

392

00:17:59,521 --> 00:18:03,564

And if you wanted to sum it up in one

or two sentences, I guess you could

393

00:18:03,564 --> 00:18:10,594

say it's, it's Plato, but revised and

corrected by Aristotle and his followers,

394

00:18:11,084 --> 00:18:14,484

as well as influenced by the Stoics

and some of the other philosophers.

395

00:18:15,784 --> 00:18:18,504

So it's Plato, but it's

modified a bit in that way.

396

00:18:19,454 --> 00:18:22,994

What, I mean, just briefly,

what were those modifications?

397

00:18:23,787 --> 00:18:27,327

Well, a lot of it has to do with the

theory of forms that we'll talk about.

398

00:18:27,577 --> 00:18:27,877

Okay.

399

00:18:28,147 --> 00:18:32,337

So, Aristotle had a radically different

understanding of the forms, and

400

00:18:32,337 --> 00:18:35,897

he had some very cogent criticism

of Plato's theory of the forms.

401

00:18:36,157 --> 00:18:39,390

So part of it is that, and

there's some other things as well.

402

00:18:39,390 --> 00:18:41,957

And then the third is

probably the most interesting.

403

00:18:42,617 --> 00:18:44,617

The third is what's called Neoplatonism.

404

00:18:45,807 --> 00:18:47,057

You've heard me mention that before.

405

00:18:47,057 --> 00:18:47,357

Yeah.

406

00:18:47,747 --> 00:18:47,917

Yeah.

407

00:18:47,917 --> 00:18:48,877

Neo meaning new.

408

00:18:49,167 --> 00:18:49,407

Right.

409

00:18:49,407 --> 00:18:51,767

So this is going to come after

middle Platonism, presumably.

410

00:18:51,797 --> 00:18:52,857

Much later, actually.

411

00:18:53,267 --> 00:18:55,307

Usually dates from, from about, uh, 250.

412

00:18:56,757 --> 00:19:02,457

And then we have an end date of 539

when the Emperor Justinian, shut down

413

00:19:02,526 --> 00:19:04,016

the school that was teaching this.

414

00:19:05,016 --> 00:19:05,256

Yeah.

415

00:19:05,276 --> 00:19:06,826

So there is an end point.

416

00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:08,896

So about two 50 to five 29.

417

00:19:09,516 --> 00:19:13,733

The thing is, though, that you

have antecedents to that, all the

418

00:19:13,733 --> 00:19:16,304

way into the 2nd and 1st century.

419

00:19:16,794 --> 00:19:20,630

What I mean by antecedents is, you

had ideas that were already in the

420

00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:24,708

air that were then later incorporated

into the system of Neoplatonism.

421

00:19:26,698 --> 00:19:30,608

Now, we can't really go into

that now because it is complex.

422

00:19:31,458 --> 00:19:36,335

But basically, it's a Platonism

Platonism that's also a religion.

423

00:19:36,675 --> 00:19:40,005

So it's a religious philosophy

or a philosophical religion.

424

00:19:40,655 --> 00:19:44,615

It's, it's not a religion where

you go and you worship and

425

00:19:44,615 --> 00:19:45,915

you're engaged in community.

426

00:19:45,915 --> 00:19:50,907

It's more of an intellectual, knowledge

of religious thought, basically.

427

00:19:51,686 --> 00:19:55,246

it's also different because

it's more heavily monistic.

428

00:19:55,686 --> 00:19:57,946

We'll explain that term

in the next episode.

429

00:19:58,901 --> 00:20:00,631

Think of a cocktail or a recipe.

430

00:20:00,992 --> 00:20:05,920

And if you mix in maybe three parts

of Plato, one part Gnosticism, one

431

00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,938

part the mystery religions, and one

part Old Testament, then you've

432

00:20:10,938 --> 00:20:12,988

got something like Neo Platonism.

433

00:20:13,488 --> 00:20:13,848

Wow.

434

00:20:14,008 --> 00:20:14,298

Yeah.

435

00:20:14,758 --> 00:20:15,548

It's thought provoking.

436

00:20:15,658 --> 00:20:15,903

Yeah.

437

00:20:15,903 --> 00:20:16,408

It's interesting.

438

00:20:16,748 --> 00:20:18,978

And it had influence beyond itself.

439

00:20:18,978 --> 00:20:20,178

Some of the themes it taught.

440

00:20:20,242 --> 00:20:24,082

were carried over into the Middle Ages,

not the whole scheme, but there were

441

00:20:24,082 --> 00:20:28,462

certain emphasis and themes, especially

about knowing God and mysticism that

442

00:20:28,462 --> 00:20:34,082

carried over into the Middle Ages and

even into today, but it was also conceived

443

00:20:34,082 --> 00:20:38,205

as a main competitor of Christian

theology, philosophically at least.

444

00:20:38,785 --> 00:20:41,755

And so some Christian theology

is a response to what's

445

00:20:41,755 --> 00:20:43,455

happening in neoplatonism.

446

00:20:43,875 --> 00:20:45,035

Ooh, that's interesting.

447

00:20:45,045 --> 00:20:45,385

Right.

448

00:20:45,755 --> 00:20:49,138

So Plato is Cutting a

wide swath of influence.

449

00:20:49,138 --> 00:20:50,078

Yeah, wow.

450

00:20:50,288 --> 00:20:50,528

Yeah.

451

00:20:50,918 --> 00:20:52,068

He and his descendants.

452

00:20:52,138 --> 00:20:56,338

So, real quickly, going back to the

idea of it being a religion, a religion

453

00:20:56,338 --> 00:21:01,288

of the mind, you just mean it's more,

it's, it becomes more intense, that

454

00:21:01,288 --> 00:21:05,428

people begin to get more dogmatic

about it, or it begins to get coupled

455

00:21:05,428 --> 00:21:11,378

with religious practices, or like,

in what sense does it move beyond.

456

00:21:11,413 --> 00:21:12,785

um, philosophy.

457

00:21:12,785 --> 00:21:16,075

Are there, are there gatherings

of people, or, or clubs formed

458

00:21:16,075 --> 00:21:19,785

based on the, the thought, or like,

how, what do you mean by that?

459

00:21:19,975 --> 00:21:21,045

Okay, yeah, fair enough.

460

00:21:22,205 --> 00:21:24,945

So, not religious in terms of activities.

461

00:21:24,945 --> 00:21:28,085

You didn't, you didn't have a weekly

meeting or anything like you would

462

00:21:28,095 --> 00:21:29,805

in, say, Judaism or Christianity.

463

00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,560

it wasn't like that.

464

00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,434

But, what's happening here, here.

465

00:21:36,065 --> 00:21:40,303

And I'm just going to paint a very

broad brush, but what you have

466

00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:45,880

is a philosophical system that

teaches that you need a salvation

467

00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,190

experience or a salvation route.

468

00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:51,230

So this, this goes beyond what

most philosophy does, right?

469

00:21:51,780 --> 00:21:54,760

So most philosophy explains the

world, maybe tells you what you

470

00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:55,990

should do in some situations.

471

00:21:56,390 --> 00:22:00,080

This one is saying you need to

fundamentally change, and there is

472

00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,050

a route of salvation in a sense.

473

00:22:03,015 --> 00:22:08,203

But, it's a salvation by knowing that's

why you have Gnosticism in there.

474

00:22:08,203 --> 00:22:12,213

Gnosticism means knowing, um, or

the religion associated with that.

475

00:22:12,963 --> 00:22:18,033

So it's, it's by knowing, it's not

by moral repentance or belief, say in

476

00:22:18,033 --> 00:22:20,233

Christ, or, or following a covenant.

477

00:22:21,023 --> 00:22:25,093

But as part of that knowing, it goes

beyond, it's, there is an intellectual

478

00:22:25,093 --> 00:22:26,713

knowing, very, very heavily involved.

479

00:22:27,143 --> 00:22:31,023

But there's also a knowing that

goes beyond the intellect and almost

480

00:22:31,023 --> 00:22:34,161

of a mystical union with the One.

481

00:22:35,011 --> 00:22:38,481

So in Neoplatonism, the One

is going to be functional,

482

00:22:38,791 --> 00:22:40,241

functionally equivalent to God.

483

00:22:40,841 --> 00:22:42,791

The highest thing, the

most valuable thing.

484

00:22:43,301 --> 00:22:45,661

so they're going to take that

idea from Plato and they're going

485

00:22:45,661 --> 00:22:46,771

to run with it and deepen it.

486

00:22:47,621 --> 00:22:52,981

But they would also view this idea that

you can ascend Towards the One, by your

487

00:22:52,981 --> 00:22:58,121

knowledge, but you can also have this

mystical union with the One in some ways.

488

00:22:58,491 --> 00:23:00,121

So, that's the goal.

489

00:23:00,191 --> 00:23:02,111

And that's very different

than most philosophies.

490

00:23:02,171 --> 00:23:02,691

Yeah.

491

00:23:02,881 --> 00:23:04,701

So, kind of follow up question.

492

00:23:05,391 --> 00:23:07,871

is that something that

also transcends death?

493

00:23:07,921 --> 00:23:11,501

I mean, are they talking about some sort

of afterlife as well, that's part of the

494

00:23:11,501 --> 00:23:14,511

religious uh, element of the philosophy?

495

00:23:14,931 --> 00:23:15,651

Not usually.

496

00:23:15,841 --> 00:23:16,191

Okay.

497

00:23:16,341 --> 00:23:16,591

Okay.

498

00:23:17,481 --> 00:23:19,491

I think there may be

different answers to that.

499

00:23:19,491 --> 00:23:22,211

I'll have to Okay, I'll have to

think about that a little bit more.

500

00:23:22,791 --> 00:23:24,651

Okay Well, this is great.

501

00:23:24,671 --> 00:23:25,641

This is exciting.

502

00:23:25,931 --> 00:23:30,971

Uh, you can already see the influence

Over the next 800 years as he goes

503

00:23:30,971 --> 00:23:34,981

to you know, as it becomes middle

platonism and neoplatonism, right?

504

00:23:35,591 --> 00:23:38,973

And we're already seeing the way

that that's converging with monism

505

00:23:38,973 --> 00:23:41,126

and christianity and all that stuff.

506

00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:46,196

Yeah Which is an interesting dynamic

because Plato, as we'll talk about in the

507

00:23:46,196 --> 00:23:52,549

next episode, is a strong dualist, but his

system lends itself to being interpreted

508

00:23:53,369 --> 00:23:55,809

monistically, which is interesting.

509

00:23:56,379 --> 00:23:57,439

Anyway, we'll come back to that.

510

00:23:57,549 --> 00:23:58,919

So unpack it next week.

511

00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:00,089

Yep, we'll do that.

512

00:24:00,339 --> 00:24:00,759

All right.

513

00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:04,659

Well, thank you for the, the

introduction to Plato and his

514

00:24:04,659 --> 00:24:06,629

life, his work, and his influences.

515

00:24:07,309 --> 00:24:08,499

And until next time.

516

00:24:09,589 --> 00:24:10,629

This is philosophy and faith.

517

00:24:11,739 --> 00:24:12,129

Okay.

518

00:24:12,509 --> 00:24:13,389

That's a nice outro.

519

00:24:13,389 --> 00:24:13,899

Thanks.

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