Is Community-Based Artmaking

at the Heart of Cultural Democracy?

In this conversation, community arts organizer, educator and theater maker Matt Schwarzman describes his mission to make collaborative art making a regular, normal, expected part of everyday life. A movement that has quietly grown for decades, but now faces a new test in a time of democratic strain.

Along the way, he traces his influences from John o' Neill and the Free Southern the to the grassroots cultural movements of the 1980s and 90s that helped shape a generation of artists who see culture not as decoration but as civic infrastructure.

Matt's journey winds through several decades of cultural organizing from sea to era arts jobs in Philadelphia to community organizing in Oakland and youth theater in post Katrina New Orleans.

Across these projects, a single thread emerges the idea that community arts is a learnable, cross sector civic practice, an amalgam of organizing, teaching and art making.

In our conversation, we talk about:

1. The influence of seminal cultural leaders like John O'Neal, whose minimalist storytelling and story circle methodology help build national networks of cultural democracy
2. How youth arts programs can serve as modern rites of passage that help young people claim civic voice and leadership
3. And how storytelling, imagination and collective creation are foundational skills for sustaining democratic life.

Notable Mentions

People

Mat Schwarzman – Trinity City Arts

Community arts organizer, educator, theater maker, and co-creator of Trinity City Comics and A Beginner’s Guide to Community-Based Arts.

John O’Neal – SNCC Digital Gateway

Playwright, storyteller, organizer, and founder of Junebug Productions; a key influence on Schwarzman’s understanding of cultural democracy and story circles.

Keith Knight – K Chronicles

Cartoonist and collaborator with Mat Schwarzman on A Beginner’s Guide to Community-Based Arts.

Rhodessa Jones – Cornell Arts & Sciences

Performer, teacher, and co-artistic director of Cultural Odyssey, cited in the episode through her theater work with formerly incarcerated women.

Rinku Sen

Organizer, strategist, and writer whose work at the Center for Third World Organizing helped shape Schwarzman’s understanding of community organizing.

Gary Delgado – American University

Organizer, scholar, and founder of the Center for Third World Organizing; one of the people Schwarzman credits with teaching him organizing practice.

Steve Prince – Studio Website

Artist and educator who worked with Trinity City Arts and helped mentor youth comic-makers on Trinity City Comics.

Judith Malina – The Living Theatre

Co-founder of the Living Theatre, referenced for her writing on the artist’s role during periods of counter-revolution.

Octavia E. Butler – Hachette author page

Visionary novelist whose Afrofuturist imagination and Parable novels deeply influence Schwarzman’s current work.

Robert M. Sapolsky – Stanford Profile

Neuroscientist and writer whose work on behavior, biology, and violence informs Schwarzman’s thinking.

Places

New Orleans / Bolbancha

Schwarzman’s home base and the setting for much of his current work; he names it as Bolbancha, “the place of many tongues.”

Philadelphia

City where Schwarzman began his paid community arts work at Big Small Theater and connected with the Painted Bride Art Center.

Oakland

Where Schwarzman trained in organizing through the Center for Third World Organizing and developed the East Bay Institute for Urban Arts.

Alameda, California

Bill Cleveland’s home base, acknowledged in the episode as Ohlone land.

San Francisco Bay Area

The broader region where Schwarzman worked at New College of California and built his arts-and-organizing practice.

Events

Comprehensive Employment and Training Act (CETA)

Federal jobs program that helped support the arts position Schwarzman took in Philadelphia in the mid-1980s.

Hurricane Katrina

The storm whose aftermath shaped Schwarzman’s New Orleans youth theater work, including the Creative Forces Youth Theater Company.

Chicago Conference of the Alliance for Cultural Democracy Archive

Referenced in the episode as one of the gatherings that connected Schwarzman to a wider national arts-and-democracy network.

Junebug Productions: Our Story

The institutional home for John O’Neal’s post–Free Southern Theater work, including the Junebug Jabbo Jones performances mentioned in the episode.

Publications

A Beginner’s Guide to Community-Based Arts, 2nd Edition

Comics-illustrated guide co-authored by Mat Schwarzman and Keith Knight, designed to demystify community-based arts practice.

Parable of the Sower

Octavia Butler’s novel, cited by Schwarzman as a major influence on Trinity City Comics and his interest in Afrofuturism.

Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst

Robert Sapolsky’s wide-ranging study of the biological roots of behavior, referenced in the conversation as a current fascination.

Do Dogs Laugh?

Jake Page’s popular science book on canine behavior, cited by Schwarzman in relation to theater, performance, and social roles.

Acknowledgements

From Freesound.org

beautiful or ominous music box.wav by xtrgamr -- https://freesound.org/s/268511/ -- License: Attribution 4.0

Eerie Horror Background Music with Ominous Dark Atmosphere by Matio888 -- https://freesound.org/s/793481/ -- License: Attribution 4.0

Audio Exerpt:

"Don't Start Talking...Junebug Jabbo Jones”Stevenson J. Palfi's 1985 television adaptation of playwright/actor John O' Neal's bravura one-man theater piece.

"Don’t Start Me Talking Or I'll Tell You Everything Know. Sayings From the Life and Writings of Junebug Jabbo Jones” was created by O' Neal as the final production of the Free Southern Theater, which had been formed in 1963 to be a cultural arm of the Civil Rights Movement.

The play was developed in the community workshop-feedback style with O'Neal's principle collaborator, the theater director Steven Kent,

#ANALOGLAB.ORG

#ANALOG LAB

#SOUTHEAST MEDIA PRODUCTION LAB

#JUNEBUG PRODUCTIONS

#SE MEDIA PRESERVATION ALLIANCE

#NEW ORLEANS

#JUNEBUG

#FREE SOUTHERN THEATER

#JOHN O' NEAL

#STEVENSON PALFI

*******

Art Is CHANGE is a podcast that chronicles the power of art and community transformation, providing a platform for activist artists to share their experiences and gain the skills and strategies they need to thrive as agents of social change.

Through compelling conversations with artist activists, artivists, and cultural organizers, the podcast explores how art and activism intersect to fuel cultural transformation and drive meaningful change. Guests discuss the challenges and triumphs of community arts, socially engaged art, and creative placemaking, offering insights into artist mentorship, building credibility, and communicating impact.

Episodes delve into the realities of artist isolation, burnout, and funding for artists, while celebrating the role of artists in residence and creative leadership in shaping a more just and inclusive world. Whether you’re an emerging or established artist for social justice, this podcast offers inspiration, practical advice, and a sense of solidarity in the journey toward art and social change.

Hey, there is community based art making at the heart of cultural democracy.

From the center for the Study of Art and Community, this is Art is Change Chronicle of art and social change, where activist artists and cultural organizers share the strategies and skills they need to thrive as creative community leaders. My name is Bill Cleveland.

In this conversation, community arts organizer, educator and theater maker Matt Schwarzman describes his mission to make collaborative art making a regular, normal, expected part of everyday life. A movement that has quietly grown for decades, but now faces a new test in a time of democratic strain.

Matt's journey winds through several decades of cultural organizing from sea to era arts jobs in Philadelphia to community organizing in Oakland and youth theater in post Katrina New Orleans.

Across these projects, a single thread emerges the idea that community arts is a learnable, cross sector civic practice, an amalgam of organizing, teaching and art making.

In our conversation, we talk about the influence of seminal cultural leaders like John o', Neill, whose minimalist storytelling and story circle methodology help build national networks of cultural democracy how youth arts programs can serve as modern rites of passage that help young people claim civic voice and leadership and how storytelling, imagination and collective creation are foundational skills for sustaining democratic life.

Part 1 Cultural DIY Matt Schwartzman, welcome to the show. How are you doing on this fine day?

I'm good, I'm good.

Intense day already and I'm probably going to do grant writing tonight, which I really don't like doing at night, but sometimes the deadlines don't care.

Being authentic these days can be a challenge given that there are all these tools out there. So I am really looking forward to this conversation largely because many people I talk to. Right.

Are involved in a project or an organization or have an event or something that is at the center of their universe. And Matt, you are a universe unto yourself.

Oh, thank you.

Yes, you're welcome.

And so I'm both interested in what's hopping, what's great, what's good, but I'm also so interested in what you think about where we are, what we're doing, how to move forward, and particularly how what you've learned comes to bear in these tumultuous times. Let's begin with the formalities. Please introduce yourself and let us know where you are calling from.

So my name is Matthew or Matt Schwarzman.

I am currently in New Orleans, where I live, which is traditionally the home of the Choctaw Chittimacha, the Houma, and several other Native American groups. And the place is called for centuries Bolbancha, or the Place of many tongues.

So one of the things I love about New Orleans is that even its Native American name is about mixture and about cultural exchange.

Yes.

So it's the main reason I live here.

The cross fertilization crossroads. Absolutely. So I am in Alameda, California, which is the unceded territory of the Ohlone people, who have a long history here up and down the coast.

So, Matt, in the course of your life, has there ever been a time when there was a handle or a street name that was attached to. To your work or function in the world?

No, I had to make one up.

Okay.

I appreciated the invitation, though, and I thought about it. Seriously. I would like to be known as the Sid Vicious of Community Based Arts.

So that is. That's right up there with Lenny Sloan, who said he is a gun runner for the arts. Right. So there you go.

That's great.

That's great.

My.

I feel like my mission is to help more people approach Community Based Arts as a DIY enterprise and to take it out of the academy or to spread it far beyond where it has gone before. And I think that is the common thread in pretty much everything I've done.

So talk a little bit more about DIY versus the sort of formal, structural, institutional format that often rises up around the art.

Yeah, Well, I guess a lot of my work has been about trying to find language that makes creating art in collaboration and as part of a community can be thought about with equal respect and normalcy as community organizing or social work or any number of professions that have processes that you become expert at. There's no question there are people who are experts, but that the basic elements of it are easily understood.

And anybody can do it and doesn't mean everybody's good at it, but everybody can do it.

And Necessary.

Yes, A necessary and essential thread of community that is not ever really acknowledged.

Well, but also, and I would add to that, which is that for most of human history, that was not the case. That in fact, all the things you described were not even considered sort of an extra or special or esoteric thing.

But in fact, it was something you had to do in order to function and survive in the world.

Yeah.

And I would say whatever circumstances gave rise to the art for art's sake as a religion, that religion has done enormous damage to our culture, which I think has been put into some kind of balance in the last couple decades since I've been doing this work, but still not whole, but just healing.

So I would just say in no small part to your efforts and thousands of other people who've been a part of the movement that you're referring to, which was fairly small when you and I started this journey and has really expanded. And now we're at a crossroads because in some places the work itself seems to be in conflict with another worldview which is rising up around us.

Yes, I think that's a very good point.

You are wickedness. You are jealousy. You are envy. You are hatred. You are nothing you can build. Nothing you can produce. Nothing you can create. Nothing.

We are the ones who build. We are the ones who create. We are the ones who lift up humanity. Bill, I do have some thoughts about what to do about it.

From our standpoint, I guess it's all about surviving and building for the next generation, all of which I do now in my work.

So you didn't end up where you are now. Just serendipitously. It happened over the course of many years and experiences. So first of all, you did describe what your work was in the world.

How did you come to that work?

I went to college for theater and it was something I knew I wanted to do since seventh or eighth grade. I think I knew pretty much from the beginning I didn't want a conventional arts career.

And I don't even know if it was called that anymore, but it was an NEA funded project that was clearly out of ceda. And I ended up working at a theater called Big Small Theater that was about community based arts. And my position was general manager.

So it was administrative. But I ended up very quickly getting involved in the art and the theater making.

And I've really, I've been doing the work since then. I guess the. That was the first experience. I point to Working with those young people and some other adults on creating and performing street theater.

But also my theater company was associated with the Painted Bride Art center in Philadelphia, and they brought John O'Neal into residence in Philadelphia for a few weeks, and we were able to have John in residence with our company.

Part two, John the messenger.

And I learned about alternate routes through John and became a member of.

I'll just use that word because we didn't do all that much work together over the years, but we both did our work in a way that was very reciprocal.

Well, if you think about it, it was like you put a map out and you put some dots on it and you connected them. So in previous episodes of this podcast, now we're up to almost 170 of them. Sita and John O' Neill are regular features.

And in the episode that just launched this morning, episode 144, there's a little snippet of John talking about the birth of story circles. And so it would be great to hear your reflection on how and why John was a major impact on you.

Well, I would begin by saying our relationship was complicated. I would say we did not work well together once I moved here, but we knew each other for 15 years before we lived in the same town.

And I really felt I used the word messenger pretty carefully because I think that's what he did for a lot of people because he toured the country. He was a solo performer for much of his touring life, and he. He went to a lot of places.

And I remember just as clearly as day seeing the first Junebug show, chapter one, and I know I saw it 15 times, chapter one and chapter two. And what he manifested was so elemental.

I mean, him being one person and just his aesthetic, which was very minimalist for economic reasons as much as anything. But also the way in which he used folk tales in a political way also influenced me a lot.

And then also he Was always very gracious to talk with folks after the show. Long into the night.

You would hear stories from him about his work with the Free Southern Theater, which is a hugely influential black theater company here in New Orleans in the 60s and 70s, which by the time I knew him, didn't exist anymore. But it was still very fresh in his mind. And maybe even harbinger is a better word than messenger, now that I think of it.

But it's just that idea that he represented the tip of an iceberg.

And the way he introduced me to the whole group of folks, Arlene Goldbard and Don Adams and the alliance for Cultural Democracy, Lucy Lippard, and oh my God, it was. I was drunk with knowing all these amazing people. And I knew them through John.

I went to the Chicago conference of ACD because John suggested that I go.

Yeah, because you referenced the Junebug. One and two might be helpful. Just say what that was.

So John, after the death of Free Southern Theater, had to come up with a new format that he could tour on his own to universities and theater companies around the country that he had built relationships with through the Free Southern Theater. He was trying to keep his career going, keep the work going.

And he hit upon this character, Junebug Jabo Jones, who was a mythical, almost a kind of Brer Rabbit kind of character.

And I say that I use that reference cautiously, but nonetheless very truthfully, because he was criticized sometimes by other progressives for being Uncle Thomas in the way in which he created this character, which was almost a Brer Rabbit or an Uncle Remus kind of character, but nonetheless wasn't if you actually listened to what he was saying.

I am a storyteller. Storyteller. Now I say storyteller instead of liar. Cause there's a heap of difference between a storyteller and a liar.

A liar, that's somebody taking cover things over mainly for his own private benefit. But the storyteller, that's somebody taking uncover things so everybody can get some good out of it. Yeah, I'm a storyteller.

Oh, there's a heap of good meaning be found in a story. You got the mind, yeah. Now here's the meaning to be found in the stories I'mma tell.

A man with a devilish heart is the one most likely to aim his rump at a seat the of power. A man with a devilish heart is the one most likely to aim his rump at a seat of power.

Can't nobody ride your bike lest your voice bent over right there. The meaning and the message to be found in the stories I'm gonna tell.

But like my granddaddy used to would say, son, it don't do nabit of good to wear out your knuckle knocking if ain't nobody home.

And so chapter one, the June bug goes to prison and meets a June bug in prison and ends up taking on the mantle, this June Bug.

And so he creates this idea of Junebug being a multi generational character who roams the country almost like a Johnny Appleseed of kind of character. But it was a fusion. It was very intentional fusion of folk culture, political culture, and popular culture.

Yes.

And it was just really powerful.

Yeah. So given this background, what did you end up crafting through both your interests and your influence?

What were some of the projects that most stimulated you as you went forward?

Well, I'd say the through line for all of them is recruiting people into the movement. Sort of like John had recruited me. And each program I've done, and there have been maybe a dozen, is a different way of doing that.

So, New College of California.

I mean, it was embarrassing how amazing the faculty was.

I think that's where I met you.

Yeah. Yep, yep, yeah.

And then went to Oakland to the center for Third World Organizing and learned how to become a community organizer, Something about it, at least from Rinku Sen and Gary Delgado, and really worked on how to incorporate community based arts intrinsically into community organizing, and developed the East Bay Institute for Urban Arts and worked with a lot of young people there. And then in New Orleans, moved here.

And after the storm, Katrina developed something called the Creative Forces Youth Theater Company that did all science based social justice theater created by teens, created and performed by teens, a lot of it musical theater.

And I'm happy to say that program through which I engaged maybe 30 young people over the course of six or seven years, we're going to have a reunion in about a month, and I'm going to get to learn a lot about how those young people at age 15 or 16, what they remember now that they're 34 and 35. Wow. So I'm looking forward to it.

So along the way, you did more than just work with people and use theater to advance various programmatic goals. You actually formulated ideas and structures and curriculum about how to spread the wealth and pass on the good word.

Could you talk about your theoretical work?

So I guess there too, the writing work I've done, the publishing work I've done is always about integrating the arts with something else in order to make it more understandable to people how the arts fit in.

So the Beginner's Guide to Community Based Arts that I did with Keith Knight and you and 10 artists for social Change around the country was all about my experience working at the center for Thoroughwood, organizing and integrating the art making process with the community organizing process. And what I would say is I'm all about demystifying things, demystifying the arts once again.

Not because it's not possible to get good at it, but I want more people to be trying to get good at it so that we'll have a generally higher standard of excellence. And I really hate the idea that some people are born artists and some people are not.

And I think New Orleans is perhaps the capital of counter idea that everybody is born an artist as a city more than any other I've lived in, certainly in the United States, that.

And it's not just an idea, it's not just a cultural value, both of which it is, but it's also just a reality where I don't know how many times on the street you come across someone who doesn't look like they're doing very well at all, but yet they make art of one kind or another that is absolutely amazing. Either they perform on the street or they sell masks. And you look at folks with all of your bourgeois assumptions and you can't help it.

I'm continually taught and retaught about how many mistakes we make judging one another based on our appearance of social status.

Part 3 Comics so one of the things that just jumps out, you described a book that you wrote and a framework for learning.

And I think in some people's minds they go, oh, okay, so there's this academic tome when it is not at all that in many ways you created a junebug type vehicle for sharing the kinds of things that you wanted to pass on along with your partner, Keith.

Yeah, I think that's a very good analogy because in the book I'm your cartoon guide and I travel with you as the reader to 10 different cities where each of these different artists live. And I make a point of contextualizing the work of each artist in their community by the circumstances that are facing that community.

So the Bay Area was seeing a rise in female criminality.

And so the Rhodessa and cultural Odyssey, her organization was able to get support and to create a theater company that supported women who had been in jail. And so it's very Johnny Appleseedish, like I said about o'. Neill.

Yeah. The other thing that you sort of mentioned. Oh, yeah. 10 or 12 different enterprises that you've been involved in. Okay.

So I just want to say that's a way of life that. That you and actually many other people in the field manifest that basically it's one thing leads to another.

The wisdom and the knowledge and the strategies and the practices build on each other. It's the way artists work. They're not doing the same play their whole life. They're not writing the same book. Right. And it's an iterative process.

And for you, I know it's been a lot of geography and a lot of very interesting subjects and issues and ideas, all of which are stitched together.

And I'll just go back to the book, which is a frame in which you make sense of the work, which is critical because so many people in the field just do it right. And it works. To me, that's a key part of your legacy, is spreading the good word in a way that it lasts.

So is there an event, a story that jumps out at you that you say that's where a lot of what I know came together in a way that really made a difference?

Yeah.

The thing I thought of about six months ago, the group I'm working with now, it's called Trinity City Arts here in New Orleans, had a very difficult decision we needed to make, having to do with the creation of our next comic book. Issue Number two we run, we have something called Trinity City Comics.

So Trinity City is an Afro futurist comic series that tells the story of a group of teens and their families trying to survive in a highly oppressive, hyper divided New Orleans 50 years in the future. Here is Trinity City's youth outreach worker, Hirlene, describing the project's impact on her peers.

I am the youth outreach worker. Basically, I give feedback on ideas, how we can get the teens engaged in the comic.

And so I've had the opportunity to reach out to other young adults. The ways that this touches the lives of different people and groups who interact with it is that they feel seen and inspired.

My friend, she said she was very grateful for a story that addresses topics that are close to home. And I agree, as a New Orleans, New Orleans young Adult.

And as someone in the world right now, it's very inspiring to read a story about people who have different obstacles that are personal to them and then see them take on issues that affect everyone at the same time.

And we had finished the writing for issue number two, but we. And we had thumbnails from Keith Knight, my partner from the Beginner's Guide, who's working with me on this project.

Steve Prince, who's part of our team, is suddenly unable to take the lead in producing the illustrations for issue number two. And we were at a moment where we had the money to do it.

And I know that when you have money to do something, if you don't do it pretty quickly, other things find their way into spending your money. So we felt it was important that we do something and finish. So we started looking for other adult artists to take Steve's place. And we were.

After much effort and many failed attempts, we decided that we were not going to be able to find another adult to take his place. So we had always hoped that we would have more leadership from young artists with each issue.

And so in issue one, it was all Steve for the story, but young artists each drew a page about the character that they created. In issue number two, we were planning on having Steve to have an assistant who was going to work with him on the illustration for issue number two.

And then in issue number three, we were hoping to have a teen led project and Steve would become the mentor to those artists. Well, in the end, we decided to move up our calendar. And issue two, which exists now, is not published yet, was created by three teenagers.

And it was a real risk for us to do it this way. We were not prepared. It was. It's never quite been done to anybody's knowledge in terms of the difficulty of creating a comic book by anybody.

But it's a very complicated, energy intensive process and we were able to make it work.

And now we have a comic book that is not only awesome, but we have advanced in our vision of ourselves just by leaps and bounds in the last few months in a way that I don't think anybody could have predicted. So I guess it's an. To me, it's an example of taking lemons and making lemonade.

Yes. So am I right? There were three young people, and what was their journey like?

They struggled. And I should also mention that Two of the writers from issue two were very centrally involved in this process as well. Giving.

So it was really a group of five teens and we had five adults. That's how we packed the course.

To make sure there was success, was making sure there was a lead mentor who has great experience getting young people to work together on projects like this. There was a comic book historian who was able to provide the young people with references for every possible panel layout they might want to create.

And then there was Keith, who did the thumbnails. There was Steve, who helped them with the drawing technique.

And then there was Carolina also, who is on staff with us at Trinity City Arts, and she will be the graphic designer who lays it all out into a comic book form before it's published in January. So the young people's experience, I'm curious. I think it's so fresh in their mind, Bill. I'm not even sure I could speak for them, to be very honest.

I know that Zion, one of the three, has agreed to come to our annual fundraiser in a month and present his work to the audience. And so take that as a positive sign.

Yes, absolutely.

And the other two, I'm not sure they want to come, but I know their parents want them to come. But I think they'll come around because part of this is about public speaking and about taking a stand, claiming your work in public. Yeah.

And it's not what we hired them to do, strictly speaking, but I think we were able to transmit enough of the values of what we're doing and the reasons why we're doing and our goals that I think the other two will come along as well, because it was a positive experience.

Part 4 Rites of passage so, Matt, given all these ups and downs, what have you learned that you see carrying forward?

I think where I'm at right now, and maybe I'm forcing a segue, but where I am right now really is the use of community based arts as a rite of passage for young people. And I'm excited because young people and adults have responded to it so positively.

The idea that young people have something to say that they must be heard, and that the experience of being heard in a public venue like that by not only adults and peers, teachers, parents, but also community leaders, something that Trinity City does a lot is we engage with community leaders and make sure they engage with the young people that we're working with is that is it's really about claiming a space in your community. Yes.

And this is my soapbox, which is the lack of the rite of passage is a gaping wound in the American soul.

Yes.

And to the point where the old ones have withered and creating new ones or bringing back old ones is critical and hard work.

It's one of those things, a birth ceremony, marriage ceremony, funeral and rite of passage. It's that short list of things that human beings do everywhere.

Yes. And when we don't, young people will in fact step in and make up their own. Not always to good effect.

No, I would say even there's a bias against good effect. And it's up to adults who've gone through the experience already to to channel that energy. And there's a whole, whole literature about that.

Not only the culture and the history, but the biology.

So that's not just an accident that evolution has decided that this is a window in our development when a certain amount of risk is necessary in order to harden. I do a lot of gardening, so there is this thing when plants get from seedlings to adult.

The person who taught me goes by her seedlings and she waves her hand back and forth to get the plants to bend. That process is called hardening. And they're better able to take care of themselves at that point.

Yep. You're working with some very elemental things like discipline and self awareness.

Most importantly though is the imagination, which is a musculature which you can strengthen. And that strengthening is not a one time event. It's a lifetime practice.

And to have introduced young people to that in a way that isn't prescriptive but actually connected to. Well, we're telling our story right. So which everybody wants to do. So that's a segue, rites of passage.

You could say that the young character in world history, that is the United States of America is going through its own rite of passage, the outcome of which is in question. So what are you thinking about how your lifelong practice fits in the difficult story that is emerging around us?

I think about Judith Molina from the Living Theater and a book that she wrote an article for that I was involved with back in the 90s called Reimaging America. And she said to be alive.

I'm paraphrasing, to be alive during times of revolution is very satisfying and can lead to great leaps of imagination and creativity and full satisfying careers.

But in the moments of counter revolution, like we are living in at this moment, and she was writing in the 80s, the work of the artist is more important because this is the moment when the palindrome of evil is determined to be able to be changed into live or not.

And I'm not sure I struggled with her metaphor, but I understood the idea that evil and good, progress and reactionaryism, fascism, authoritarianism are all in our DNA. And all of us need to form and reform as individuals in our societies, how we're going to move in the world.

And this is a moment when things are reforming. I don't think it's. We wouldn't necessarily call it reform in the traditional sense, but things are reforming.

And I feel the best I can do is to encode the values that I believe in. The people who are about to step forward, who will step forward next? I don't mean children either.

I'm purposely saying these are the young people who will be voting or already have begun voting. These are the young people who will start running for office or not.

And I would really like to see some of the people that I work with be inspired by what we're doing in such a way that they take strong and progressive leadership after this shit is over.

So, I mean, what I keep thinking of, the image that really rose up for me when you were saying that is that it's one thing to go to school and learn the story of America and to take in the values that are there. It's another thing to be in the work.

The practice of deciding with other people what to do, how to do it, when to do it, of making decisions for yourself in concert with other people in your community.

You have given groups of young people throughout your whole life opportunities to be in that parade and not to be standing by the side waving a flag, but actually be in the march. And to my mind, the moment that is approaching cannot abide by just an audience reacting one way or the other to the way the winds blow.

But there's going to have to be some people who are saying, whose parade is this? How's this parade going to go? And what role am I going to take in it?

And whoever you are, as a young person or an older person, if you haven't had some practice being in that position, that whatever it is we're going towards is not going to be very robust. So I just think it's so important.

I want to underline your use of the word practice right at the end.

That really struck me because I think that is absolutely core to what I'm trying to do is give young people environment in which they can practice what it means to be civically engaged.

Yep. So what's turning you on, Matt, lately?

Well, book wise, there's three things, and they each represent kind of a stream of thought that I'm totally fascinated with. None of which is new to you, but you and I have traded book references for a long time.

Yeah.

One is a parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. We're actually using it. We've decided to use it as an explicit reference in the Trinity City Comics story.

This is a spoiler for anyone who reads Trinity City Comics.

But in issue three are three teen protagonists travel to a hidden utopian community in the deep bayou created by people with disabilities who read Octavia Butler and who create their utopian society based on her values and principles. And just the whole Afro futurist literature at this point.

I think the idea of looking at the future from an African American perspective through an African American lens is incredibly exciting. And it's something we haven't done before. Yeah. And just the critical analysis. Why haven't we seen black people in the future before?

And why has it been so particularly absent? Why was Star Trek such a shock? The original when black people and white people kissed, for God's sake. But also just the idea of.

Of people both African American and other, seeing the future refracted through African American culture and notions of freedom and expression. So Afrofuturism and Octavia Butler are 1, 2 is the study of the character of species evolutionary biology.

Yes.

And one of its practitioners, Robert Sapolsky, wrote a book called Behave. He's actually at Stanford. And behave is a 900 page analysis of a single moment in time when someone does something.

And he spends 900 pages explaining all the reasons that go into understanding why someone does that thing, which is putting their fingers around a trigger of a gun and deciding whether to fire it or not. So there's a large connection between what he's doing and incarceration and police. And I had a chance to meet him the other day on Zoom.

I introduced him to the sheriff here in New Orleans and they've got a chance to talk about incarceration. So Robert Sapolsky. And then the other is Animal Psychology and Evolution Do Dogs Laugh? Which is book by Jake Page.

And he's not an original thinker, but he's really good at bringing together a lot of interesting, useful information. Kind of a National Geographic pop science kind of standpoint. And I think the.

And seeing that, witnessing that, I'd never really been to a dog park for any period of time, the connection between that behavior and theater really changed me. Not only my sense of animals, but my sense of people as well.

And just the idea that we use the techniques of art, whatever that art is, every day, and they may be formalized, there may be more rules applied to it when it's an art, quote unquote. But the skills that we're using, which I think you said at the beginning, are the skills of everyday life.

Yes. The creative process, the imagination, our ability to capture and transmit ideas and events and stories.

Yep.

We're stuck with them. We ought to use them in a way that is productive and considers more than one generation at a time. Obviously.

Yeah.

So Matt, as I expected. God, it's great to reconnect to your work and the way you think and your good heart, Matt. Absolutely.

Thank you.

Important.

That means a lot. That means a lot coming from you. Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you, sir.

You're welcome. Adios. So, before we close, I'd like to share a few takeaways. First, you know, I say this over and over. Practice matters more than theory.

Democracy isn't learned only through civics classes. It's learned through shared work, creative collaboration and solving problems together. That's no big mystery.

Second, in the push button digitized AI world, young people need desperately need real live stages. When young people are trusted to speak their truth with courage and imagination, they're claiming and taking their place in public life.

And finally, culture is how societies imagine and make the future. The stories we tell and who gets to tell them shape the story of what's next.

Artist Change is a production of the center for the Study of Art and Community Theme and soundscapes spring forth from the head, heart and hand of the maestro, Judy Munson. Our text editing is by Andre Nebe. Our effects come from freesound.org and our inspiration comes from the ever present spirit of ook235.

So until next time, stay well, do good and spread the good word.