In this Episode we are talking to the lovely Jo Reader.

Jo is a huge advocate of women self accepting their bodies and believes that body confidence has a huge impact on women in business.

You can find Jo at the following places:

Instagram: JO READER | Therapeutic Coach | Bristol (@thebodyempowermentcoach) • Instagram photos and videos

LinkedIn: Jo Reader MBACP (Accred.) | LinkedIn

Website: Jo Reader | Coaching and Counselling

You can keep up to date with the host Helen here:

https://linktr.ee/Helencorsicadmore

Liked this episode? Remember to subscribe and leave a review!

Or if you want to be a guest then contact me at hello@helencorsicadmore.com

Thank you,

Hels x

Hello and welcome to another

episode of Fabulous and Female,

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where today I am super excited to

be talking to the lovely Jo Reeder.

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Jo is, um, not far from me, just over

the bridge in North Bristol, um, where

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she lives with her beautiful So excited

because I've actually seen, seen her.

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Super spirited, seven year

old, gorgeous, bouncy dog.

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Oh, just love dogs.

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So this is like even lush, even more

lush to be able to talk about dogs.

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The seven year old is the child.

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Seven year old's the child.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Well, okay.

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We can talk about children.

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Talk about children.

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Talk about dogs.

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But the beauty.

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Yes.

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Two very boaksy puppies.

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She's only two!

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Yeah.

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Oh wow.

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Okay.

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Looks older.

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But loves to.

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Anyway.

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Let's move on.

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It's a seven year old gorgeous child.

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Okay.

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So, Jo loves her job.

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Loves being self employed.

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Um, and you initially graduated, which I

didn't know this until I read your bio,

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um, with a degree in music, qualifying

as a music teacher a year later.

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Um, teaching in a secondary school

and then a Young Offenders Institute

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eventually led her to work for

the local authority supporting

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families through difficult times.

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She is now a accredited psychotherapist

turned therapeutic coach, having retrained

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when you were 34, which I'm going to come

on to that because that's Interesting.

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Um, you spent two decades confronting

weight stigma, champion, championing,

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hate that word, body liberation,

writing a master's thesis on weight

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stigma in therapy, and publishing an

article on fat oppression in the leading

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specialist magazine for counsellors

and psychotherapists in the UK.

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You are also hugely passionate about

fostering women's freedom and self

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acceptance of their bodies, freeing

women of generational trauma of

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female body shame, and it's an honor

and privilege to be part of this.

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Welcome, lovely Jo.

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Thank you, lovely introduction.

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So that is a very kind of overview,

structure, a little bit of bio about you.

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What I'd love to know is a little

bit more about you and a bit

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more about you personally, if

you're willing to share, please.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Shall we start with the personal stuff?

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Yeah, let's do that.

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Let's do that.

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It's much more fun, isn't it, really?

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Oh, yes.

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There's something about me.

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Um, so yeah, I've got, as we've

established, got a dog and a child.

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Um, Uh, they are both very bouncy.

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Equally as, uh, challenging,

it's not the right word, but

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opportunist, should we say that?

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Yeah, spirited is the polite, yeah.

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Um, but yes, I love dogs, I love

dogs, and it's, uh, yeah, we

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share that passion, don't we?

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We do, we do.

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What is it about dogs that you love?

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Good question.

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Um, I think it's their loyalty.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um, their unconditional love,

like they just, I had a cat before

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and cats are like, whatever.

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Not for me.

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Not for me.

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Yeah.

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I fell in love with it.

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Wasn't my choice to have a cat,

but I fell in love with her.

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But, um, dogs are just like,

you know, every time I walk

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into a room, the tail wags.

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Yeah.

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I'm excited to see you.

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Yeah.

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Like that's being pleased

to be seen every whatever.

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Yeah.

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Whatever.

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Yeah, love that.

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Okay.

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So yeah, a little bit more.

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What else do we want to know about Jo?

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What do you want to know about me?

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I love getting to the sea.

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I need to see the sea.

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That is where I just feel, um, just

at peace with the world, really.

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It's a bit indescribable, but it's,

it's a connection with nature.

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It is, yeah.

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A dog walk on the sea.

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Um, on the beach by the sea.

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Yeah, I love that.

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Um, you know, I, I knew you'd ask me

some personal things and I, well, the

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things I jotted down were dogs, crisps.

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Yes, crisps.

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Okay.

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Flavor.

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Salt and vinegar.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think we've had this

conversation before.

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I'm sure we have.

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Yeah.

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It's, it's the only flavor, right?

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Yeah.

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Sorry for all the other people.

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They don't like salt

vinegar, but I'm love it.

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There are other, well there

are, it's like, you know, there

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are other brands out there.

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Salt vinegar are the best.

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Okay.

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Uh, yeah.

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What else?

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I put log fires.

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I love log fires.

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I've got a log fire.

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Mm.

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I love a, I love it.

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I mean, I, I love the summer,

but when the winter comes, I'm.

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Get some lights and

candles and light the fire.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I love the um, the definite

weathers though, you know, when

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it's like, when it's really summer

lush and when it's really winter.

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Brilliant.

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When it's this in between,

you're like, what's going on?

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Is it going to snow?

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Is it going to rain?

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Is it just like, oh, come on, just let me

put a log fire on and just be all coochie.

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Yeah, there is something about that

definitely, which is why I quite

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like winter, because I'm like, I

know when I have that in the desert.

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It's very cold today, isn't it?

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It's like, it is.

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I can light a fire tonight.

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Great.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You could put one on now if you wanted.

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I could.

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I could.

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Couldn't you?

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I do sometimes, like, it feels

very, uh It's very naughty in the

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middle of the day to put a fire on.

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Okay, right.

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Thank you, Jo.

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So with crisps, uh, dogs, log fires.

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Amazing.

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I think the audience know a

little bit more about, um,

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three things that you love.

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All very similar to me, actually.

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That's why we like each other.

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Okay.

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So I would love to know,

you retrained at 34.

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Um, what made you think about

retraining to what you do?

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Well, I was working for the local

authority, um, working in schools and

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working with families, um, around,

um, kids who weren't going to school.

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So going to families and trying to

work out what the problems were.

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And I realized that I really needed

kind of good listening skills in

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order to build that relationship and

really You know, let people trust you

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and then try and find a way forward.

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I went on a few kind of day

training courses and I was

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like, Oh my God, I love this.

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I love this.

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And I factored around for about 10

years not doing it because I was

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like, I don't know what course to do.

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I don't know when's the right time to

retrain and the money and everything.

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And then, yeah, I just like one

summer, someone just, you know,

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someone just asked me a question like,

well, how long are you going to wait?

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And I was like, right, no, you're right.

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Great question.

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I know.

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Yeah.

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What are you waiting for?

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Yeah, exactly.

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It was someone I didn't know.

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It was like a party, you know,

just, just small, but they got

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a really good coaching question.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's a good point.

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And the next day I went back and looked

on the, on the internet, it looks up,

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um, University of Bristol courses and

they just reopened their bookings.

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They haven't quite got

enough numbers for the year.

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January instead of September.

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This was August or something.

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And I was like, Fantastic.

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Fantastic.

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And what did that entail then when you

went to retrain with it, like a number

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of years, three years, three years.

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Yeah.

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Um, yeah, you can just do it in like

two years as a post grad diploma.

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Inverted it three years.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Part time whilst working.

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Wow.

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And then, then you have to have placement.

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You have to see clients to get that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So how did you, how

did you deal with that?

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I guess that's the right word, isn't it?

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When you were working full time, did

you, you didn't have your daughter?

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No, I wasn't, I wasn't a mum then.

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So that's a great.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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But still, you still have a long

days, like five days working four,

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went to college a day on a Friday.

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Yeah.

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And my clients in evenings.

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It was a bit crazy.

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Yeah.

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And how did you feel when you'd Rechained

and you've done all that for like

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three years, you know, bloody hardware.

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It's amazing.

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Amazing.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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I mean, I loved it.

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I loved it.

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It was absolutely my, you

know, born to do vocation.

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So I loved the training and, um,

not much of the essay writing,

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but anyway, um, not for me.

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I did just love the learning and felt

very proud of myself really redoing,

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you know, doing that in my head.

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And, um, uh, and then, and then I, so

part way through, I sort of qualified

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in the diploma part and, and then I,

so I set up to be self employed after

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that whilst I was doing the Masters.

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Yeah.

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Um, that felt a real sense of achievement.

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In fact, interestingly, one of the

reasons I wanted to go into counselling,

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aside from loving it, was so I could

be self employed and get a dog.

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Yeah, a really big driver, so you

could have the freedom to have a dog.

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And do you know what though, that's

a, that Jo, is a really, really

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good reason, because everybody

needs a dog in their life.

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I'm telling you now, I love that.

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Love it.

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Okay.

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But that was a long time ago now, because

I then met a man who had a cat, so weird.

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Yeah, I've never had cats.

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Neither have I.

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No, I've never had cats.

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Never in my life.

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Um, but anyway.

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Okay.

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But that's why I now have a dog.

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That's why you now have a dog, yeah.

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And that's why they're very

loyal and they wag their tail.

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Okay.

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So, interesting though.

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So, if somebody is thinking

that You know what you were, you

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know, you, when's the right time?

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What are you actually waiting for?

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What would you say to somebody now

if they're thinking, oh, you know,

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I'd love to be able to do that.

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What, what would you, what

advice would you give them, Jim?

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Oh, a few things went through my mind then

was obviously I'd advocate for anybody.

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If you've got an absolute

passion and you know what you

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need to do, don't, don't wait.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you know, there's got

to be a few practicalities in

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place, but yeah, of course.

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Um.

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I am just so glad I, I did that and

committed to and it was a difficult

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time in terms of juggling everything,

but, um, the thing is, if you just keep

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waiting, you'll probably end up doing it

one day and then you've just wasted, you

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know, all that time when you could have.

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And it's always.

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It's like anything, isn't it?

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The anticipation of something is always

worse than actually once you're in it.

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Yeah, it was intense, but absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And I, and I think the other thing

that went through my mind is like

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in a sort of coachy councilary sort

of way, you know, you have to be

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sure it's what you want to do to.

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You know, because that's what I

was, you know, like, is counseling

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going to be the right thing?

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Should I be doing psychology

or should it be music therapy?

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Because I'm just stalling, not making a

decision, because it is a big decision

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and a big What if it's the wrong one?

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What if it's the right one, isn't it?

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That's why I saying, yeah.

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What if it's the right?

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I think that was my procrastination.

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It's like, I dunno what the right one is.

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Mm.

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But yet, you know, it's the child.

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And that's the thing.

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Right.

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I always think that.

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Do we ever really know until we, until

we do something And now you, like

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you, you're so passionate about it.

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What made you take another step back here?

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What made you, um, leave

the music teaching?

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Well, this could get a bit juicy.

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Okay.

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Share as much or as little

as you can or want to please.

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All I'll say, as any teachers listening,

you know, that is a very hard job.

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And there was this sort of defining

point when I was 24, working every

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Sunday, I had to, that I thought, I'm

not, I'm not going out and living life.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I just thought, do you know what?

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No, because I love working with teenagers.

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I've worked with teenagers all my career.

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I love teenagers.

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And I like working with schools,

but actually being in a school.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think it's just

quite an abusive career.

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The job is never done.

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And you're scrutinized in ways not in

the same, you know, so many demands.

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It's a huge job.

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Yeah, it is.

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The amounts of.

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This is a bit of a soapbox of mine,

but as a parent, you know, the only

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place really children go, have to go,

predominantly most children go to school.

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So that's the only institution,

the only professionals ever really

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see children on a regular basis.

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And the only people that see parents, um.

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So true, it never looks really that way.

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Well, yeah, they are real hubs of like

everything that goes on in a child's life.

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And yet, you know, teachers are

only trained to teach, I mean I

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say only, it's a phenomenal job.

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Yes, oh fantastic, yeah.

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so much, but you know, there needs

to be bigger hubs than um, just

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educationalists can deal with so.

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Yeah, absolutely, so much, yeah.

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And there's so much these days, and I

haven't brought you on to talk about, um.

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Teaching, but there's so much these

days that they, they can't do.

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There's so many restrictions, and you

think, Oh, I'd love to help these a

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bit more or do something, but there's

so many boundaries, isn't there?

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And red tape that they just can't do it.

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So I think, I guess for

you It's an impossible job.

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And um What do you mean frustrating?

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I did it for two years.

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Mmm.

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I just thought, you know, sod this.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I love this.

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I love music, love kids.

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So that's why I went to go and work in a

Young Offenders Institute as a teacher.

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It was very different because

we weren't having to follow the

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curriculum, there wasn't the red tape.

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Amazing what they could achieve.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um, that was a challenge.

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Yeah.

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I can imagine.

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Yeah.

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I've actually interviewed quite a few

teachers who have, who have, um, left.

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Yeah.

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And either retrained or just.

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Yeah, followed a passion and, um, or

fallen into something more accidentally.

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Um, and I think there's a lot to be

said about how amazing teachers are.

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I've also got a lot of friends who

are teachers and also a massive

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credit, I think, to those that

go, you know what, I'm, I'm done.

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I'm going to walk away.

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I'm just, I'm just done with it, you know.

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I know because it is really vocational.

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People don't go into

teaching just for a laugh.

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No.

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You know, because they really believe

in, in teaching the next generation.

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Yeah.

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It's very hard to walk away from that.

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Yeah.

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You know.

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It is.

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Yeah.

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I, well, I'm saying it

is, I can imagine it is.

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Um, you spend a lot of time

training to do that career.

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Um, so that's what I mean.

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It's, it's very, I give

a lot of credit and.

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You know, kind of well done to

be able to step away from that

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and go into something else.

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Um, which is where I want

to come on to, I guess.

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So.

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Jo and I have only kind of connected

fairly recently, haven't we, um,

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through a mutual sort of connection.

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And Jo asked a question in a

container that I sort of facilitate.

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And it, we were just talking

about it before we came live.

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I don't think about it all day, every day.

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I don't.

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But it's, it's something

that really stuck.

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Yeah, it's really stayed with me.

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Um, and it was around, I can't remember

the exact question now, but it was around.

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Um, body and do you think it,

how you feel about your body

395

holds you back in business?

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And Jo, explain how I kind of reacted when

you thought I couldn't really remember it

397

because I just said, you know, I got this

question how, I can't quite remember the

398

wording either now, how, um, you know,

if you have body insecurities or how much

399

does your body hold you back in business?

400

You were like, Oh yeah.

401

Wait a minute.

402

Yeah.

403

That's an interesting question.

404

Like, it really stopped

you in your tracks.

405

Yeah.

406

And there's not a lot of things that

really stopped me in my tracks, but it

407

got me thinking to how many people this

affects from, A, maybe, um, speaking

408

up, um, staff in a business, uh, I don't

know, speaking on stage, just even being

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them as a human because of maybe society.

410

Yeah.

411

Yeah, absolutely.

412

So, let's just delve into that a bit more.

413

So, I know you said it, just

written down what you're buying.

414

You said it's an honor and privilege

to be in this sort of place.

415

Why is it so important to you?

416

Yeah, great question.

417

I mean, it is absolutely, you know,

if, if the other stuff hadn't been my

418

life's work, this, you know, this is it.

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Yeah, I just want as many women

particularly as possible to know that

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they don't have to feel such shame

around their bodies because of my own

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experiences and what I've been being

through the journey I've been through.

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I know what it's like to come out the

other side and it feels like you've

423

opened this door into a world you're

like, wait, this world existed and I

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didn't, you know, yeah, so freeing.

425

To not worry so much.

426

I mean, it still exists, but not really

about what other people think of my

427

body or what I really think about.

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I don't look in the mirror and feel

any kind of shame or hatred or it just.

429

non existent.

430

I mean, it was there,

um, it's not anymore.

431

And the, oh my god, there's so much

more space in my brain for other things.

432

Yeah.

433

Oh, I love that.

434

You've released stuff so

you can do other things.

435

Much more important.

436

Live your life, yeah.

437

And I just feel very passionately about

how How women are very oppressed by this,

438

uh, idea that we need to worry about

what our body looks like, um, constantly.

439

And I mean, I don't say that lightly.

440

I think most people, I don't encounter

many people who don't have insecurities.

441

There are people, but I would say

the vast majority of women have some

442

kind of body hang up and they don't

brush it off as some kind of, well,

443

you know, it sits there as a concern.

444

Yeah.

445

And it's often deep rooted, isn't it?

446

Yeah.

447

That well, experiences that I know

it's, it's, it's not something that's

448

just come like, you know, in the

last like six months, it's often

449

something that's come from childhood,

you know, all of these things, you

450

know, all of our values, beliefs, our

thoughts always come from childhood.

451

And I, and I always say this,

I'm not blaming parents or,

452

you know, things around us.

453

But actually we take a lot

from those places, um, that's

454

how we learn to be human.

455

Yeah.

456

We are trained and programmed, women,

girls, to not like their bodies.

457

And again, that's a big

statement, isn't it?

458

It is, yeah.

459

But actually, when you think

about what goes on, and this

460

isn't about parent blaming, it's

certainly not about mother blaming.

461

No.

462

Our mothers were brought up in, you know,

in a culture that was even more, you know,

463

you think I often say this to clients,

you don't have to go back very far.

464

Um, so my grandmother, you know, was

pulled out of school at 14 because her

465

mother had died to look after the home.

466

And that was the end of that.

467

Yeah.

468

That's, I mean, that's not very far away.

469

That's, no.

470

And that was very, very common.

471

I know.

472

And so those women brought up our mothers.

473

Right.

474

Yeah.

475

That's my dad's mum.

476

But, um, so they have been,

you know, and that is post war,

477

inter pentagonal, but yeah.

478

And the, the kind of things, the pressure

on women's bodies and women's place in the

479

world would be brought up by women who,

who didn't have that place in the world.

480

No.

481

So when you think about bodies, the focus

on bodies, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, all about

482

being as small as possible, losing weight.

483

Most, most mothers went

to some sort of diet club.

484

Yeah.

485

Oh God.

486

So even if nothing was said to you as a

child, You see your mum weighing herself,

487

being upset at gaining weight, being

happy at losing weight, and it's set.

488

Yeah, and you take on all those emotions,

you see all of those things, you hear

489

all the things they're saying, and that's

what goes into our brains, right, and

490

that's what we remember, and that's

what we feel like we should believe.

491

It goes unquestioned.

492

It does, yeah, it really does.

493

And I know that they're I've got

some friends who are now, um, in

494

the, uh, physical education space.

495

Okay.

496

That's what they do, but they are still

very much about, um, educating their

497

children, their families on, I am doing

this for me, not for anybody else.

498

Would you say that's, important

that you do things for you?

499

Definitely, definitely.

500

I think that helps create a boundary

around it, but it still sends a message.

501

I mean, it's what they're, when you're

saying physical education, obviously

502

movement and exercise and stuff.

503

Yes.

504

It's good for all bodies.

505

Yeah.

506

You know, there's, there's tons

of evidence that, that says that's

507

the best thing for our health.

508

I think when we're talking about dieting

and weight loss and weight gain and things

509

like that, I think if you're doing it and

you're saying, I'm just doing it for me,

510

it's very hard, particularly for girls, to

not go, well, then I should be doing it.

511

Yeah.

512

Okay.

513

Yeah.

514

I see what you're saying there.

515

They're still educating them that this is

what they believe is the right thing to

516

do, whereas not giving them the choice.

517

Well, I mean, I think, you know,

you can say with words, can't you,

518

uh, you don't have to do this.

519

Yeah.

520

But I mean, to use a very sort of

strong example of if people, I mean,

521

a lot of my work is predominantly

around kind of weight stigma,

522

fat phobia and things like that.

523

The fear of being fat, even though

I just body image as a, as a general

524

thing, that is my kind of specialty.

525

If you are.

526

Uh, a mother who is constantly trying

to lose weight and losing weight

527

and being happy around weight loss.

528

If your child is, is big fat in

any way, or not very slim, how

529

can they see their body as valid?

530

If, if their role model is

saying, I am happier and more

531

positive when my body's smaller.

532

Yeah, yeah, completely get that.

533

how it isn't, you're saying

maybe my body isn't as valid.

534

I just don't know how you get

that message across any other way.

535

Yeah, that's so true.

536

So how would you, is there a way that you,

537

no, let's rephrase that.

538

So if somebody came to you and

said, Jo, right, I am not confident

539

in, I don't know, going for a

promotion or going to stand up on

540

stage and speak because I feel fat.

541

I, you know, I personally

do not like that word, fat.

542

I just don't.

543

It just doesn't sit right with me.

544

But actually, you know, to the

person, but how, how would you sort

545

of have those conversations around

that with those people that have

546

got the fear because of their body?

547

I would love to go back in a minute to

talk about why I don't like the word fun.

548

Okay.

549

Yeah.

550

Let's do.

551

Um, okay.

552

How would I, well, I spent, when

I do my work, I spend a lot of

553

time understanding people's story.

554

So, um, I would ask them to, to

tell me more, but what I would

555

be trying to establish with

someone is what their beliefs are.

556

Being fat.

557

Yeah.

558

It depends whether they feel

fat or are fat, of course.

559

Okay.

560

Are they different?

561

Well, I mean, some people carry a lot

of weight and they're fat and some

562

people don't carry a lot of weight,

but they feel overweight or they feel

563

bloated, not slim enough, let's say.

564

And, and this idea about feeling fat is,

um, I mean, it's not an emotion, is it?

565

And yet.

566

It's kind of what people are saying.

567

They feel a bit, maybe that's

it's stand in for that.

568

So, of course, if someone was saying,

I feel fat, I would be trying to

569

unpick what do you mean by that?

570

Um, I guess there's a very common

perception that fatter bodies aren't,

571

uh, accepted so much in our society.

572

So if you are.

573

Going for an interview or going to

be on stage, there is probably a

574

worry that you're going to be judged

in a bigger body, um, than in a,

575

uh, a sort of media ideal society.

576

body.

577

I mean, interestingly, you

know, where is this magic sites?

578

Because, you know, you only need to

look at a magazine or social media.

579

If you go too thin, massive criticism.

580

Exactly.

581

Yeah.

582

Yeah.

583

Women's bodies aren't actually

allowed to just be that.

584

So yes, I would be exploring

with somebody where they've

585

got these messages from around.

586

And I'm not, I'm not stupid.

587

I live in the same society, but yeah.

588

Messages from around.

589

Fat not being accepted.

590

And, and spend a lot of time, you know,

unpacking those beliefs and trying

591

to decide how much people sign up.

592

Yeah.

593

Beneath the surface.

594

It's really interesting.

595

People kind of go, well, I don't

really think I think all fat

596

people, you know, are unacceptable.

597

I mean, especially when they're

sitting in the room with me

598

and we do talk about that.

599

I am a fat.

600

Let's talk about what you

think about fat people.

601

Then actually we have a lot of very

fixed beliefs underneath the surface.

602

Most people don't actually think fat

people are useless or thin or actually.

603

So yes, they did.

604

They're not bloody nice people.

605

That's what I think.

606

Anyway, it's a, it's very

sweeping generalization.

607

So when you drill down, people don't

really believe that, but there are

608

lots of messages we get in society

around, uh, around fat people.

609

And, you know, I've got some really

interesting, um, kind of quotes around,

610

I use in, in some of my work about, you

know, fat is the, is the most feared

611

thing to be for young girls growing up.

612

They would prefer to be many, many things.

613

Really?

614

Yeah.

615

Do you want me to tell you

about some of these awful?

616

Yeah.

617

No, I would.

618

Yeah.

619

Take the time to find them because.

620

That's really interesting.

621

I've got, um, you know, I've

got, uh, twin daughters who are

622

going to be turning four soon.

623

And I, you know, I want them just to be.

624

So all this education, I, I just soak it

up now because I take in as much as I can.

625

Yeah, but the thing is, you

know, it doesn't matter.

626

Obviously in my household there

is, you know, no fat shaming.

627

It's not, and my child went to school,

there's, you know, hears lots of

628

different views and comes back and

goes, Are you sure about this, Mummy?

629

Yeah.

630

So however much you do at home, you

know, you're still exposed to it.

631

Exactly.

632

Yeah.

633

These are quite, these are quite shocking.

634

I'm going to read them out to you.

635

This is a survey of American college

students and it found that they would

636

prefer to marry an embezzler, drug user

or shoplifter than someone who is fat.

637

Wow.

638

Another study between females aged between

18 and 25 found over half would prefer

639

to be run over by a truck than be fat.

640

And two thirds would choose to

be mean or stupid than the fat.

641

Wow.

642

This is the, this is

the most shocking one.

643

Um, this was just involving a hundred

women, but one in six said they

644

would prefer to be blind and obese.

645

Um, and others would prefer

alcoholism or catching herpes

646

to being massively overweight.

647

Wow.

648

Okay.

649

They're quite strong

statements, aren't they?

650

Yeah, they are.

651

That's true.

652

But their thoughts.

653

And they're valid.

654

They're valid feelings for

somebody, not saying they're right.

655

No, no, no, but it tells you how,

how strongly people feel about it and

656

how scared people are of being fat.

657

And the reason I sort of mentioned those

is that, you know, they're in our society.

658

So even though personally, when we

actually think about it, we think, well,

659

I, I'm not prejudiced about people who

are fatter, but in our society, we tend

660

to assume that people are unhealthy.

661

I mean, that's a really strong one.

662

Yeah.

663

unattractive, that's also high up on the

list, but also unintelligent, unfit, lazy,

664

you know, out of control, no willpower.

665

So these are very common,

very common narratives.

666

So who wants to be thought of like that?

667

Yeah.

668

Yeah.

669

I mean, when you're fat, you get heckled

in the street, people will like, people

670

will just drive up in their car and go.

671

Yeah, like that, get some exercise,

you know, the assumptions it is, it's,

672

and it's so, it's rubbish basically.

673

And that's the way I'm looking at

it because, you know, we're not,

674

I just, I just said this phrase on

another, on another recording actually.

675

And it's, we're not, I'm not

responsible for other people's thoughts

676

or opinions, but for some people.

677

That's really hard.

678

And they can't just

accept that's the norm.

679

No.

680

And to get up on stage.

681

Yeah.

682

Go on social media and think

somebody might say something.

683

Because they do.

684

Yeah.

685

People do.

686

And my work is around really, it's about

that self, self worth and trying to find

687

that kind of way of accepting yourself,

even though society might not, but

688

also how do you tolerate a society that

might judge you and have comments about,

689

especially women, you know, brilliant

women and all they, I mean, you only

690

need to look at our prime ministers.

691

You know, they, they, if we're

female prime minister, let's

692

talk about what they're wearing.

693

Yeah.

694

Does it, does it actually

matter what they're wearing?

695

No, I know.

696

That's a great example, actually.

697

And there's always those, um, I

can't, I haven't read a magazine for

698

years, but you know, it was always

like, I see a celebrity on a beach

699

and like, Oh, look, look at her.

700

Look, I don't know what there

was one actually recent.

701

Oh, I say recently in the last six months.

702

And it was, um, Model

Kate, Kate Moss, Kate Moss.

703

And she was like, you know, Kate

Moss has always been portrayed

704

as being very thin as a model.

705

But she, you know, she, she just

looked like Kate Moss to me.

706

And it was like, Oh, she's put on weight.

707

She's getting, I'm going to use the

word fat, but you know, and I was just

708

like, okay, but that's still happening.

709

Why do we think that that's

acceptable for people?

710

Why is it important?

711

Exactly.

712

And do you know what?

713

That's actually a really good question.

714

Why is it important?

715

So what would you say to somebody?

716

I know you're like, you know, you're

a massive advocate for reducing the

717

amount of body shaming that goes

on whichever way you look at it.

718

What would you say to those people?

719

What do you say to those

people that still use?

720

Those pictures, those phrases,

don't waste my energy.

721

Yeah, I don't know what so that's

actually a really good, that's

722

a good way of looking at it.

723

You know, you can't convert

or preach to people, listen.

724

I mean I don't mind having

a debate with somebody.

725

I can imagine you would love that.

726

I love it, but I also just think

don't, you know, it's all like don't

727

read the comments, just don't engage.

728

Um, because just some people don't

want to know, you know, my clients

729

are people who are like, I feel like

there's another way to see this,

730

you know, they're up for it already.

731

Um, but I think, you know, as a

fundamentally, it's a massive distraction

732

in our society to keep directing women

to worry about these things so that we

733

don't take over the world or something.

734

I really do think there's a very, um.

735

It is a very sexist and misogynistic.

736

At the end of the day, it's a way

to really control, uh, control them.

737

Is that, yeah, it's a

strong word, isn't it?

738

And it's, I think what I feel

passionately about is like, and this

739

is what my clients say is like, the

freedom is, I've always felt, you

740

know, it's like this glass ceiling.

741

I can't quite get any further because

you can, you know, yeah, you've got

742

to work, work a bit harder and break

through some of these barriers, but.

743

Don't let the patriarchy say that you're

not allowed and you can't, you know, it's

744

a whole idea about, I can't wear this

kind of top, I can't wear sleeveless tops.

745

Somebody might stare or whatever.

746

I mean, you have to deal with

that, but you can, you can.

747

That is a classic one, actually.

748

And family members have said to me.

749

Can't exactly come at that because of

my bingo wings, or you know, all these

750

names we give to parts of our body.

751

And I mean, you can, you can, you

can do whatever you bloody want.

752

It's how then you deal with

any sort of comments or

753

repercussions that come from it.

754

I'm not saying that it's easy.

755

I'm not saying that.

756

I'm still not quite there with the bikini.

757

I don't know.

758

I just, uh, it's just

a step too far for me.

759

Many people do.

760

Isn't it fabulous?

761

Yeah.

762

For me, it's a step too far.

763

But I can, and I will not.

764

It's, it's a choice I'm making, you know.

765

Because it just feels, and I think this is

it, this is it, what I do with my clients

766

is sort of say, make it your choice.

767

You know, I just think I can't

be doing with the staring.

768

And you can put a swimsuit on and just

enjoy it because I like getting in the,

769

you know, getting in the sea and stuff.

770

Um, so it's a personal choice rather

than I can't wear a bikini, you

771

know, I can and I will if I want to.

772

Yeah, absolutely.

773

Or maybe you just can't yet.

774

And you, you know, it's not

quite there yet, but you will be.

775

I think the one that can't is, you

know, yeah, maybe it's a personal

776

thing, but people are normally saying

it like, you're not allowed, if you've

777

got wings, you shouldn't show them.

778

Yeah.

779

Yeah.

780

Who says?

781

Arms come up so much.

782

I find it so interesting.

783

Arms, do they?

784

It's obvious stuff.

785

Yeah, bums and thighs

and things, but arms.

786

But I think it's a really natural

evolution of all grannies.

787

All grannies have really, it's

like, I'm not saying it's normal.

788

I think it's normal.

789

Yeah, it is.

790

It's like, it's like cellulite.

791

It's really normal.

792

I read recently, they think I think

it was Vogue who invented cellulite.

793

I think it was Vogue.

794

Um, I should check, double check.

795

Yeah, let's check that.

796

I will do.

797

Sorry Vogue, if it's not Vogue, but

if it is, then sort yourself out.

798

But it was in the like, you

know, 60s or so, I don't know.

799

I always pull these things

right from top of my head.

800

But you know, these things have

been invented to I mean, like,

801

like the BMI is an invention.

802

It's not a medical measure.

803

It is an invention.

804

It was an astronomer who was interested in

drawing up tables of population, you know,

805

it was never meant to be a health, and it

isn't, you know, it's just another thing.

806

It's just, it's been made up.

807

I did not know that because I, and

I'm kind of going like this because.

808

Uh, when we were trying for, um,

to start a family, you know, we

809

were going through IVF and you

have to have your BMI measured.

810

And if it's out of the parameters.

811

You don't get, you don't get a chance.

812

And I can see it from some points of

view, from a health point of view,

813

from a, this is my opinion, right?

814

From a weight point of view, when you're

trying to really, if, if there is some

815

loss that needs to be done to potentially

aid, then I think there's nothing wrong

816

with that, but I did not, I did not know

that BMI was, no, if it does aid, but

817

actually there's absolutely no evidence.

818

There's no scientific data.

819

Says it does.

820

Yeah.

821

And this is where I am very much,

if somebody that is in a profession

822

that I really know nothing about, I'm

not very interested, a doctor says

823

to me, this is what you need to do.

824

I'll go, okay.

825

No, it's just a way of filtering out.

826

Yeah, see everybody in it's, yeah, I

mean there whole interesting, it's not

827

time for us to go into it today, but

medical gas lighting around, you know,

828

the BMI ultimately was adopted in America

where healthcare is paid for and so it's

829

a way of making more money, insurance

premiums, getting more money from people.

830

Okay, it's fundamentally racist, it's

important to say, because, because

831

generally in America, the, the, the

black people that were part of, you know,

832

those, the medical, medical healthcare,

way more in general terms, black people,

833

white people are such a general term.

834

Yeah.

835

It meant that, that.

836

Black people could be charged more.

837

It's just, it's a way of separating

out white and black people.

838

Wow.

839

You don't need to look very far

on the internet to look at the

840

racist, uh, Yeah, of the BMI.

841

Yeah, BMI and just, yeah, fat.

842

Very, very, very interesting.

843

Very interesting.

844

Yeah.

845

Um, Jo, does being the size that

you are, you've said, I'm not

846

saying this, this is your words,

you said a moment ago, you're fat.

847

Like I said, I don't, I don't like that

word and you can ask me why in a minute.

848

Um, do you think it does

hold you back in business?

849

Not, not anymore.

850

Not anymore.

851

Yeah.

852

I mean, because I'm self employed.

853

I mean, I think at work

when I was, um, employed.

854

Yeah, maybe.

855

I don't think people see

fat women as successful.

856

No.

857

Yeah.

858

That women are successful.

859

But it's not because they're not.

860

It's not because they're not.

861

It's funny though, isn't it?

862

Instantly my head then went to right,

who do I think is successful women?

863

And I was, I was looking in

my brain for bigger people.

864

Yeah.

865

It wasn't the first ones

that came into my mind.

866

No, because we do stigmatize and

assumptions that because we've got

867

this rhetoric in society that it's not

healthy and that it's controllable,

868

then if, if people are not slimmer,

they must be somehow not capable of, you

869

know, or being too lazy to, you know,

so that's the assumption, isn't it?

870

Um, So does it hold me back?

871

I think not.

872

And obviously, you know, made a

career out of being proud of it

873

and, um, training people on it.

874

So, so no, but I, the judgments

are there and I have had clients

875

in the past who don't come to

work with me around body stuff.

876

Cause I do other things, um, who will

make quite derogatory comments sometimes.

877

So.

878

Yeah, it's hard to know, isn't it?

879

Interesting, yeah, it really is.

880

Um, so the word fat, for

me, um, It's hard to say.

881

Yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not

actually, So, I'm six foot tall,

882

right, and I've always been, always

been called skinny, my whole life.

883

So for me, it's, it's actually

probably the opposite.

884

Always being called skinny.

885

And actually, I'm like,

well, This is just my body.

886

This is my body.

887

I'm not fat.

888

I'm not skinny.

889

I'm just my body.

890

Some days I'm bigger than, than

I was a month ago, because that's

891

the choice that I've made to not do

exercise or not eat particularly well.

892

So what?

893

Or actually, it might not necessarily

be connected to that, you know?

894

Yeah.

895

Oh yeah, I'm sure there is.

896

But it's for me, it's like, um, You know

that there's a, there's a correlation.

897

Yeah, absolutely.

898

But there's other things that may

or have stopped me doing things

899

in my business, not because of

weight or anything like that.

900

So it's, yeah, it's, it's been a

really interesting conversation.

901

I appreciate we're not going to have

much time left, but, um, for anyone.

902

But the word fat is, it jolts with you.

903

I guess it's helped.

904

Very negative connotations in our society.

905

Yeah, it has, and it pisses

me right off, to be honest.

906

It does, it does, because, you know.

907

There's this whole, I do exercise,

I do feel like I look after myself,

908

but also, people say you're, you're,

you're really skinny, or you're really

909

thin, and it's like, well, also, don't

forget, I'm six foot tall, right, so I

910

can hide a lot of my body because I'm

tall and it kind of just goes down.

911

Again, I'm being a bit generalistic,

but I know what you mean.

912

Yeah, you know what I mean.

913

And I just think, well,

it's interesting, isn't it?

914

It's the assumptions that people make.

915

Yes.

916

With your body.

917

And actually, and I'll, you know, I make

assumptions too, because when I asked that

918

question in our container, and you stopped

and paused, I did not expect you to.

919

Yeah.

920

It's that expectation.

921

It is, isn't it?

922

Yeah.

923

Yeah.

924

And actually, for me.

925

It's not about weight, it's about

other things that kind of go, Oh,

926

does, does your appearance, does,

you know, me wearing glasses.

927

Um, these kind of things, does

that hold you back in business?

928

So we've just kind of brought

up a load of things that how

929

people perceive themselves.

930

Yeah.

931

Or perceive other people, what is

that doing for them in stopping

932

them doing what they want to do?

933

Exactly.

934

And I think just to add to your question

we asked about, does it hold me back?

935

I think there are times when I don't

think I would go and stand on a stage.

936

I'm quite happy to kind of be

visible and to do things in.

937

In person, you know, like, but, um,

yeah, I think, you know, there is still

938

a fear about the judgments and being,

being looked at and you know that people

939

are making judgments and some days

I just say, I can't cope with that.

940

Yeah.

941

And that's normal though, right?

942

Isn't it?

943

You're going to have these feelings and

as long as you, you look at what's coming

944

up for you that day, in that moment.

945

Exactly.

946

Just don't sit in it.

947

What I often say to my clients is, you

know, this isn't about loving your body.

948

It's about being more at peace with

it and repairing the relationship

949

you have with your body.

950

Yeah.

951

So there isn't hatred

and shame and hiding.

952

Um, and, and so that's what I, I'm able

to be much more confident and I can put up

953

with the comments or the staring mostly,

but some days, you know, I'm just like,

954

I just, I'm not going to deal with it.

955

And you're so beautiful Jo.

956

I can never look at.

957

The size of somebody.

958

And I guess this is just me,

you know, I think you are.

959

And I'm, you know, I'm really

honoured of you to come in

960

and talk about this as well.

961

Um, and everyone that knows and listens

to my podcast, I always ask a question

962

about what's your favourite cake?

963

Because I love coffee and cake.

964

That's like one of my

favourite things to do.

965

Um, so I am going to ask you it,

but I feel like there's going to

966

be something coming back at me.

967

Do you have a favourite cake?

968

Do you like cake?

969

Well, I have obviously

thought deeply about this.

970

I mean, you would ask, well, and

then, and what it made me think

971

was, you know, when you ask.

972

In fact, people are asked

about food trigger something.

973

Yeah.

974

Now it doesn't in me.

975

However, I, I thought, God, whatever I

answer, I feel like there may be people

976

thinking, well, of course she'd say that.

977

Right.

978

So stop it.

979

No, I don't, I don't care.

980

I know, I, but it made me easy

for me to say that though.

981

Right?

982

I get it.

983

One of the things I, I, well, I do, I

don't care what people think generally so

984

much like, so I don't worry about that.

985

But one thing I really like about your

podcast is that you do ask that and it's

986

just really normalizes eating nice food.

987

Mm-Hmm.

988

Yeah.

989

Yeah, some people would be like, oh,

I don't, I don't eat cake very much.

990

Fine, but you know, it doesn't matter.

991

Virtuous person, don't eat cake.

992

Exactly.

993

It's nothing about how you, how

big you are or how small you are.

994

Do you want to come for a coffee?

995

Do you want a bit of cake?

996

If you don't, fine.

997

People eat or don't eat.

998

People, lots of people in

society make judgments.

999

So if I sat here and said to

you, actually, cake isn't,

00:45:15,790 --> 00:45:17,240

I don't eat much cake.

00:45:18,075 --> 00:45:19,775

Sounds like I'm trying to be virtuous.

00:45:19,845 --> 00:45:20,555

Yeah, I get that.

00:45:21,665 --> 00:45:22,795

Crisps are my thing.

00:45:23,085 --> 00:45:23,845

Well, okay.

00:45:23,845 --> 00:45:27,985

Maybe I'll ask that.

00:45:28,775 --> 00:45:30,705

That could be seen as the

same thing though, isn't it?

00:45:30,705 --> 00:45:32,085

Crisps is still food.

00:45:32,135 --> 00:45:33,745

So exactly.

00:45:33,775 --> 00:45:35,665

Well, you can't ever do a podcast.

00:45:35,665 --> 00:45:36,645

I think I'll have to do crisps.

00:45:37,215 --> 00:45:37,795

Crisps.

00:45:37,845 --> 00:45:38,765

It's really important.

00:45:40,350 --> 00:45:45,360

To answer the question, I actually, I do

like cake, and it was hard to choose, but

00:45:46,070 --> 00:45:48,190

if anything, I would say a Belgian bun.

00:45:48,340 --> 00:45:48,750

What?

00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,560

A Belgian bun?

00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:53,600

Belgian bun.

00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,060

You know what a Belgian bun is.

00:45:55,060 --> 00:45:55,920

Well, I do.

00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,219

Nobody's ever said to me, Jo, a

Belgian, that's very specific, that

00:46:01,220 --> 00:46:03,980

would be the, do you know if you go in

and there's like all these different

00:46:03,980 --> 00:46:08,300

cakes, the Belgian bun would be there

for days, going, somebody please buy

00:46:08,530 --> 00:46:10,630

me, and I'd be like, no, not for me.

00:46:11,565 --> 00:46:12,005

Love it.

00:46:12,065 --> 00:46:12,525

Love the roses.

00:46:13,365 --> 00:46:14,245

Bit of icing.

00:46:14,305 --> 00:46:14,845

Yeah.

00:46:15,555 --> 00:46:16,235

Yeah.

00:46:16,775 --> 00:46:17,045

Yeah.

00:46:17,905 --> 00:46:18,355

There we go.

00:46:18,355 --> 00:46:19,785

That's why everyone's so different.

00:46:19,855 --> 00:46:23,355

Jo, you've been an absolute dream and

I hope for anyone that's listening.

00:46:23,845 --> 00:46:28,715

You've taken some snippets from what

we've talked about today and thank you

00:46:28,805 --> 00:46:32,725

so much again, like I said, for being

open and honest in the conversations.

00:46:33,005 --> 00:46:38,015

If anybody is interested in working

with you more around anything that

00:46:38,025 --> 00:46:40,175

you do, where can we find you, Jo?

00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:41,840

So, joereader.

00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,180

com is my website, everything is there.

00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:49,110

And if you want to follow me on Instagram,

I'm the Body Empowerment Coach and I

00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,340

would love to talk to people about this.

00:46:52,450 --> 00:46:53,000

Brilliant.

00:46:53,020 --> 00:46:54,290

Thank you so much, lovely.

00:46:54,340 --> 00:46:54,970

Thank you.

00:46:55,250 --> 00:46:57,950

Have a wonderful day and

I'll speak to you soon.

00:46:58,540 --> 00:46:59,000

Okay.

00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:59,650

Bye.