We sit down today and discuss building codes and how they work with Tiny Homes and Container Homes. Ryan M. Colker is Vice President, Innovation at the International Code Council, where he leads the Energy, Resilience and Innovation Center of Focus. He also serves as Executive Director of the Alliance for National & Community Resilience (ANCR), a national coalition working to provide communities with the tools necessary to holistically assess and improve their resilience.

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[00:00:30] Ryan Colker: Um, we're seeing, you know, uh, sort of a better approach, um, to manufactured housing, um, you know, through, um, the, the HUD code regulations. Um, but we're also seeing, uh, the growth in, uh, modular, uh, construction, which is, you know, constructed in a factory, uh, but meets the requirements of the local code. Um, you know, in most cases a variation of the international residential code when it comes to remodeling and renovating your home.

[00:01:03] Eric Goranson: the house. Welcome to the Around The House Show. This is where we have a great time talking innovation around your home every single week. Thanks for joining us. I've got a great guest today. Ryan Colker, vice President of Innovation at the International Codes Council, welcome to Around

[00:01:20] Ryan Colker: Thanks so much. Pleasure to be.

[00:01:42] Eric Goranson: It is a game changer in the world of construction and somebody's gotta get their arms around it. And it sounds like you guys

[00:02:02] Ryan Colker: You know, it's been

[00:02:18] Eric Goranson: But we've also gotta find up new, innovative ways to make it work. And sometimes building codes, you know, um, I wouldn't say get in the way of it, but it makes it a little bit harder, but many times it's for the right reasons. Yeah,

[00:02:34] Ryan Colker: I think, you know, building codes can certainly be a, a piece of it. Um, but. Uh, significant challenges around zoning codes and location of housing. Um, a little bit of nimbyism, uh, and those sorts of things as well. So, um, yeah, many different pieces that sort of add to the challenging equation.

[00:02:57] Eric Goranson: You know, topics of discussion for you [00:03:00] guys because I know what you guys are trying to do and we're trying to be as inclusive as possible, but, uh, you know, there's challenges, especially when you get into shipping containers and things like that, where it's one thing to build with a new shipping container and then you've gotta make it be able to fit into a residential type situation.

[00:03:23] Ryan Colker: Yeah, so I, I think there's a few different things. I mean, first off is just, uh, folks understanding and learning about the different options through, um, what we call offsite construction.

[00:03:52] Ryan Colker: Uh, and that creates, uh, maybe some mystery, maybe some, uh, you know, sort of lack of, uh, understanding or maybe even some concern. And [00:04:00] so being able to sort of navigate the various different. Choices around offsite construction solutions, uh, creates challenges. And so we're really working with folks to help navigate, you know, sort of what different options mean for regulatory approaches.

[00:04:40] Eric Goranson: And it's fascinating how those different worlds works. And I think, to be honest, I think the future is gonna be in a modular home construction because you can just build it safer, more efficiently and more cost effectively in a building that's, you know, creates a healthier home while you're doing it. So I get this, but uh, [00:05:00] that's the problem is when you've got a, a building inspector, maybe that's looking at it going, well, there's drywall up, but I couldn't look at how.

[00:05:09] Ryan Colker: Yeah, exactly. And you know, we've got, uh, particularly in the, uh, residential space, uh, you know, a couple things going on. We have, you know, the manufactured housing, you know, which you talked about, you know, relative to, uh, single wides or, or double wides or triple wides, um, which, you know, sort of.

[00:05:44] Ryan Colker: Code regulations. Um, but we're also seeing, uh, the growth in, uh, modular, uh, construction, which is, you know, constructed in a factory, uh, but meets the requirements of the local code. Um, you know, in most cases, uh, variation of the International [00:06:00] residential code. Uh, and so. You know, those types of houses. Um, if you're not standing at the job site, you know when the, the boxes are, uh, you know, sort of brought and assembled.

[00:06:34] Ryan Colker: But in reality, you know, a lot of the sort of modular manufacturers, the, the quality, the um, sustainability, the energy efficiency. Of, of homes are, are even higher than, than what they would get on a site-built project.

[00:07:05] Eric Goranson: And if that would've been a modular constructed house that wouldn't exist. And, and, and in a week, the builder's gonna be wrapping that with house wraps all attached on the inside. I've watched dumpsters of material. Of cut ends of material, get hauled off. I mean there's a million reasons why it is so much better to build these things inside and more efficient.

[00:07:30] Ryan Colker: Yeah, exactly. And I think the other, uh, key issue is, is workforce availability. Um, you know, we hear from, uh, you know, builders that they can't get, um, you know, the trades in, uh, and if you're building in a factory, you don't have to deal with those weather issues.

[00:08:02] Ryan Colker: So, uh, I think it really presents another opportunity in that space as well. I

[00:08:21] Eric Goranson: I see where you guys are trying to go in modernizing building codes so that these things get addressed fairly. I guess it'd be probably the word for it.

[00:08:39] Ryan Colker: Mm-hmm. Um, and if you're, you know, sort of then constructing in a factory, the sort of traditional inspection process of, you know, an inspector could show up at a home site, you know, every day if they really wanted to and sort of understand what's going on, uh, behind the walls. Um, but if you know now in a modular construction project, you know, a full module with, you know, the walls [00:09:00] enclosed, shows up at a job site, the local inspector, um, you know, doesn't really know sort of what's happening.

[00:09:26] Eric Goranson: And that's key. I mean, I've had my own struggles on my own projects in the same city with two different inspectors, right? Where one guy's quoting something, one guy's think he's quoting the other, and you, you get the, the, the standoff between two different inspectors. It's gotta be tough when you've got a third party out there, and I see why you guys are doing that.

[00:09:47] Ryan Colker: of. Yeah. And, uh, you know, the more we can provide consistency, uh, the better, and, and particularly in the offsite construction space. I mean, if you're dealing with a factory that may be providing, uh, [00:10:00] products for, you know, multiple different states, um, if there are multiple different sort of regulatory structures, um, that cuts into the efficiency that the offsite construction process provides.

[00:10:18] Eric Goranson: are there different, um, challenges when, you know, I, it's one thing to have a modular home being built. But I know that in this, this container home craze that's out there as well, that's a whole different thing cuz you're literally taking a steel box that was meant to be shipped worldwide with materials in it and trying to make a residential structure out of it.

[00:10:44] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, absolutely. And so, um, that was actually one of the first areas where we recognized the need to support, uh, some consistency and some guidance around, uh, offsite construction. And so, uh, we initially developed guideline five for the use of, uh, and this is a [00:11:00] long one, the use of intermodal shipping containers.

[00:11:07] Eric Goranson: You couldn't make that really any shorter to address it though. I know,

[00:11:28] Ryan Colker: Since that guideline, we've actually incorporated language into, uh, the international building code, specifically on, uh, how to use shipping contain. Um, and then, you know, we've also done, um, we have a I C C evaluation service, which looks at new and innovative products, uh, to determine, you know, whether they're compliant with the code and provide, uh, basically a report that says, so.

[00:12:11] Ryan Colker: Yeah. That's good. And I've

[00:12:33] Eric Goranson: Which, yeah, that's an interesting concept of, okay, what was in that container before I build it into a residential structure. Yeah.

[00:13:04] Ryan Colker: Um, and so, um, you know, certainly a huge sustainability benefit there. But as we move to, to more, uh, sort of first, uh, use or new, new shipping containers, um, you know, maybe that piece of the puzzle goes away. Um, but it's certainly a cool aesthetic as well.

[00:13:29] Eric Goranson: Shipping containers, you know, setup up there that I thought was really cool, you know, that they actually went through and did that out of, you know, 40 foot containers, which I thought was pretty, pretty cool, innovative way of doing it to do, you know, a different style building,

[00:13:44] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. And if you think about a, a sort of Starbucks, um, or similar, you know, type of application, those are great opportunities for offsite construction as well. Um, you can just, you know, create sort of dozens of the same model and, and pick 'em up and, um, just drop 'em where you need 'em. [00:14:00] What are you

[00:14:03] Eric Goranson: Because that is its own little thing as well, and it's almost like RV living in a space that you really can't drag the RV around cuz it was never built that way. But I have seen some absolutely wonderfully planned out and built. Ones, and then I've seen some DIY disasters that, that I've said, yeah, I wouldn't even wanna put that behind a one ton truck and drag it 50 feet.

[00:14:45] Ryan Colker: Between how a tiny house is actually going to be used. Um, so if people are gonna live in, uh, a tiny house as, uh, you know, permanent residence, uh, year round, um, they should meet similar requirements to what's in the international residential [00:15:00] code. So your tiny house should be as safe and efficient and resilient as, um, you know, a neighbor who may live in a single family or, or a townhouse.

[00:15:35] Ryan Colker: And so that's a way to sort of get to that permanent occupancy, uh, you know, type of approach. Uh, in a tiny house, we've also seen, um, you know, sort of, uh, for temporary, uh, or seasonal use, um, the use of, you know, park model or RV standards. Uh, and I think that's certainly fine if the building is actually being used for that purpose.

[00:16:21] Eric Goranson: I agree. Cuz you know, and I, and I'm happy that you guys addressed as a group that staircase thing because you know, That's where I get into the Wild West comment on that stuff because loft stairs were nowhere in building code for to go into a bedroom, right?

[00:16:49] Ryan Colker: Yeah. And, and so now, um, there's, there's opportunities for staggered staircase, ladders, you know, sort of various different, a approaches sort of recognizing that, you know, the space is [00:17:00] small.

[00:17:08] Eric Goranson: true. And then, yeah, I, I do see where you're talking about using the park model standard stuff cuz a lot of these are meant to design to be moved to the site, left there.

[00:17:30] Ryan Colker: Yeah. And for the most part, um, you know, tiny houses don't move once they're set. So, um, if they're gonna sit there, um, be used for permanent occupancy, they should meet those, those same requirements.

[00:17:43] Eric Goranson: any other challenges that you guys are still working on with that? I mean, it seems like it's an ever evolving space. Uh, as far as the tiny home and even getting into the container modular stuff.

[00:18:06] Ryan Colker: Um, just getting folks comfortable with, um, you know, the various different approaches. Uh, again, Bringing back to, it's gonna comply with the same requirements as the building down the street. Um, same building code requirements. It's just built in a different way. Uh, yeah. And so that's, that's sort of the challenge that, that we're working through right now.

[00:18:58] Eric Goranson: So we have all the new light dry. I, I can [00:19:00] walk into any home center with the new light drywalls. The problem is, is that now they're falling down at half the rate is the old drywall in a. So they're reducing their fire safety that they had. If they have a fire in a, when they do their fire testing, if they haven't doubled the screws up when they did it, the ceilings fall down at 50% of the rate that they did with the standard drywall.

[00:19:39] Ryan Colker: isn't. Huh, interesting. Um, have heard, I know you guys

[00:19:46] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, haven't heard that. But, um, yeah, I mean, I think one of the great things about um, the code development process is that, you know, anyone can propose changes, um, you know, to the codes. And so if folks are seeing those [00:20:00] sorts of issues, uh, that need to be. Um, submit a code change proposal and, um, we may see that, uh, in a future edition of the code to address, you know, just those sorts of issues I'm hearing

[00:20:12] Eric Goranson: Drywall manufacturers screaming at me, but that's okay. But yeah, I might just do that. I might just do that. Cause it's one of those things that I'm, I'm hearing from those guys a lot that, uh, that's an.

[00:20:33] Ryan Colker: So, uh, I think that one may be perfect for our, uh, fire Services Membership Council or our, uh, our, uh, fire, uh, code action committee where, uh, you know, folks from that community really get together and sort of talk about big.

[00:20:53] Eric Goranson: And at about seven minutes in when fire hits those metal plates that they peel back, [00:21:00] So I love talking to the firefighters. They tell me stuff that I've never heard of before. So, but you know, and that's the thing though, with, with this stuff, it is such an amazing, when you're looking at building construction and what you guys are trying to do out there to make better built safer homes that people can live in, you know?

[00:21:40] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and I think, you know, one of the, the sort of key things, uh, you know, about the, the codes themselves is, um, You know, I think folks do sort of, uh, have this in the back of their head that, you know, my, my local community is, is protecting me from whatever hazard or, you know, those sorts of things.

[00:22:31] Ryan Colker: Uh, there are either no codes or codes that predate, uh, 2000. So, um, so yeah, I think folks are, are, are sort of missing that disconnect. Uh, but, you know, sort of thinking that their local governments, you know, have have them safe. Yeah, and

[00:23:01] Eric Goranson: There are so many old codes from like the eighties and nineties out there in certain neighborhoods and communities or states, depending on who's monitoring that, that are just well out of date. And it's unfortunately up to that local jurisdiction to make sure, or state, depending on how they do it, to make sure that they update that stuff.

[00:23:26] Ryan Colker: on, but they're hanging back. Yeah, absolutely. And when we start to talk about, you know, sort of new technologies or even some of the challenges, you know, that you brought up, the, the code development process can capture those, you know, pretty quickly.

[00:23:56] Ryan Colker: Um, but if a community's on, uh, you know, sort of a [00:24:00] earlier addition of the code, um, you know, they may not even be required to install carbon monoxide sensors. Uh, which, you know, I think, uh, most folks would recognize as a, as a key benefit, uh, to, to safety. No

[00:24:17] Eric Goranson: Think of how technology has come on building envelopes on the outside of the building now, where, you know, oh, it was, it was, uh, a house wrap and a in tar paper and now we've got rain screens and we've got all these different things going on there. It's a plumbing systems and electrical stuff now, and, and, and new ways of heating and cooling.

[00:24:56] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's also, you know, maybe [00:25:00] opportunities for home builders as well. You know, even if your sort of local community hasn't, uh, adopted the, the latest code, being able to say to your customers that, you know, I build to, you know, the latest, best practices. Um, even if the broader community doesn't, that's, you know, really a.

[00:25:29] Eric Goranson: Yeah. You know, I'm in Oregon here, so I'm very familiar with our building code.

[00:25:52] Eric Goranson: You know? I mean, you've got wind. You know, why aren't you putting in some of this stuff when you're building New House in the Midwest, for [00:26:00] instance.

[00:26:13] Ryan Colker: And so there were sort of general wind related provisions, uh, but not specific tornado provisions. And so what, what we'll actually see in the 2024, uh, addition of the codes is, uh, specific language to help address, uh, tornado. Which really came out of research from, uh, the Joplin, uh, tornadoes. Uh, and so again, it's a, it is sort of another reason why up-to-date codes are, you know, really important because we're able to capture, you know, that new knowledge, that new research, uh, and bring that into, um, you know, American homes.

[00:27:07] Eric Goranson: And they're like, look how good that thing held up. And I went, that thing wasn't tied off to the foundation. It's in the middle of the

[00:27:14] Ryan Colker: Right. So you still need to, to take care of that and demolish it. So, um, you know, so

[00:27:23] Eric Goranson: There's so many things like that with the older homes that, that, uh, even though that they, yes, they were built solid. Yes, they had great craftspeople, but our building code is, has stepped up, at least in my area, it was probably the seventies to early eighties where we decided, hey, it's probably good to bolt things

[00:27:40] Ryan Colker: Yes, that's always a good.

[00:27:53] Ryan Colker: for everyone. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:00] Eric Goranson: I mean, you guys are really involved in education with codes out there. What is your guys' programs out there as far as education? Cause I know you guys do a lot.

[00:28:25] Ryan Colker: Um, you know, we have, uh, a pretty good program to support, uh, contractor Educat. Again, around, uh, you know, codes, standards, uh, criteria, uh, those sorts of things. Um, and really helping to, to, you know, provide education, you know, for the broader, uh, industry. And so, uh, you know, we have, uh, education courses, but we also have, uh, certifications for particular areas, you know, of the code.

[00:29:00] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Yeah, that's important. I mean, it's, it's one of those things I think with, again, with builders out there, they, they are so focused on getting maybe a house built or a development built or a remodel done or whatever that, that better understanding, I think is really key for them, and I think it'll actually help them through the process if they take some of those courses.

[00:29:27] Ryan Colker: Yeah, and it actually could end up, you know, sort of cutting down on rework or, you know, sort of addressing any of those issues, um, that inspector identifies. And ultimately, you know, sort of, it brings up the entire industry, um, to address, you know, some of those challenges that, that may occur, you know, within communities, um, where you know, from house to house, uh, within a development you may see, you know, the same sort of problem.

[00:29:53] Eric Goranson: So common. I mean, it's, uh, especially with some of the larger builders out there, it seems that if it's a, a problem on one house, [00:30:00] it goes down the entire

[00:30:04] Eric Goranson: is key. Do you guys do any work with, and I know that you guys are building codes, which is completely different than zoning, and I think that that zoning creates their own issues and their own challenges when you're dealing with, you know, offsite construction stuff as well.

[00:30:30] Ryan Colker: Yeah, I mean, we, we do mostly focus on, uh, the building code related issues, but, you know, sort of often, uh, in people's minds, there's really no difference between the building code and the zoning code.

[00:31:11] Ryan Colker: And so, you know, we do get into, you know, some of those conversations. I think particularly on the offsite construction side. Uh, you know, as I mentioned previously, you know, folks are, are sort of, uh, carving out, uh, maybe, uh, you know, disallowing, um, sort of offsite construction generally, uh, you know, within communities, uh, because of sort of previous stigma, uh, with, you know, particular, uh, offsite products.

[00:31:58] Ryan Colker: So, um, you know, [00:32:00] things like sort of requirement of, you know, brick on the front of, you know, all houses within a community or, you know, something like that. Um, or, you know, they all need to have a garage or, you know, something like that. Yep. Um, so there is, you know, a little bit of that crossover. But yeah, I mean, I, I, I think there's, there's certainly a lot more work to be done on sort of helping address that, that differentiation.

[00:32:36] Eric Goranson: thing for people trying to keep the mother-in-law out of the retirement home or whatever, right.

[00:32:44] Ryan Colker: Right, exactly. Uh, yeah, so I mean that's a, another huge opportunity for offsite construction, but also sort of, you know, mired a little bit in, in zoning conversations as well. Yeah, that's a tough one. And,

[00:33:05] Eric Goranson: Okay. There's room and a lot to do that. And there's other cities that are not in my backyard. You know, I don't wanna see that. What do you guys do? You know, I've, so I've seen a trend here, at least on the west coast where I'm located, the cities are now trying to build up these, um, you know, kind of homeless or houseless villages where it's like the, the mini, mini modular home where it's basically a room.

[00:33:32] Ryan Colker: source

[00:33:41] Ryan Colker: Yeah, those are, those are generally sort of seen as, as temporary. Um, you know, they're, they're, from what I've seen, they're usually sort of excluded from the building ro code requirements of the broader community.

[00:34:18] Ryan Colker: But, um, you know, they should certainly understand sort of what, what they're getting and what the potential sort of pitfalls.

[00:34:55] Eric Goranson: Where that would be more of a temporary and a mobile situation. [00:35:00] Yeah. So what, what else are you seeing out there? Um, Are new products bringing new challenges to you guys? I mean, it seems like there's a new building product coming out the door every single day. Is that something that you guys are dealing with a lot, uh, in the international code like that?

[00:35:18] Ryan Colker: no, absolutely. I mean, um, you know, while the codes are updated, you know, every three years as you mentioned, you know, we're continuing to see sort of new technologies, new so, Um, that maybe aren't, you know, specifically named in the code or, um, you know, sort of don't provide maybe a direct line from something that already exists, um, in the code.

[00:35:58] Ryan Colker: Um, you know, how do I [00:36:00] demonstrate that my product, uh, you know, meets the requirements in the code. And so then, uh, the evaluation service will, uh, sort of take a look at those tests, um, and, you know, determine, you know, whether that product meets the code, uh, and then provide a, uh, evaluation service report.

[00:36:46] Ryan Colker: You know, sort of all of those different things. Um, and so you know, that that's really intended to help smooth, smooth that process. And then, you know, sort of as that product becomes more and more familiar to folks, um, you know, we may see it in future editions of. [00:37:00] And

[00:37:19] Eric Goranson: Where'd it come

[00:37:22] Eric Goranson: And it's, it's not your fault, it's, it's a European code stuff and the local inspector has never seen this stuff cuz he's never stayed in a, a portion of Europe that had this stuff. And of course none of the stamps are on the thing, some meat codes. So I think it's, uh, as we get to be even more of a global awareness of products out there, it's gotta keep throwing challenges that you guys

[00:37:44] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. And we actually have, uh, relationships through our evaluation service, you know, with, um, similar, you know, types of organizations or requirements in, um, you know, Australia for instance, um, uh, Canada, Mexico. Um, nice. And so [00:38:00] really recognizing that that sort of globalization.

[00:38:04] Eric Goranson: That is great. Ryan, is there anything we haven't touched on today?

[00:38:28] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's

[00:38:41] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, absolutely. So where's

[00:38:48] Ryan Colker: find.

[00:39:11] Ryan Colker: All right.

[00:39:16] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, absolutely. Appreciate it.