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Inside The Story of A 19-Member Tribal Nation With Journalist Karthika Gupta
Episode 109 • 28th February 2024 • Going Places • Yulia Denisyuk
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Join us in this episode in conversation with Chicago-based travel journalist and photographer Karthika Gupta. Her work has been featured in Vogue, BBC Travel, USA Today, Condé Nast Traveler, Fodors, AFAR, Travel & Leisure, Robb Report, and more. Karthika is also the founder of Culturally Ours, a platform dedicated to promoting cultural understanding and celebrating global diversity.

In this episode, Karthika and I cover great distances. We travel to the flower markets of Mumbai,  the deserts of Jordan, and the sustainable farm run by one of the smallest tribal nations in California. Karthika shares with us the backstory to her latest work for Vogue magazine,  the motivation that enables her to keep pitching her beautiful stories and get published in places like Vogue, AFAR, and others, and how knowing people from places we visit can exponentially increase our understanding of the world.

We also discuss the misconceptions about traveling to the Middle East and why traveling with her two children is Karthika's favorite way of learning something new about herself and others. Discover the motivation behind her compelling stories and her insights on how connecting with locals can deepen our understanding of the world.

This episode and the entire season of the show is brought to you by Visit Jordan.  Be sure to visit myjordanjourney.com to learn more about this beautiful place.

Featured on the show:

Get more information at:

Learn more about our show at goingplacesmedia.com.

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Please head over to Apple Podcasts and SUBSCRIBE to the show. If you enjoy this conversation, please share it with others on social and don’t forget to tag us @goingplacesmedia!

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Going Places with Yulia Denisyuk is a show that sparks a better understanding of people and places near and far by fostering a space for real conversations to occur. Each week, we sit down with travelers, journalists, creators, and people living and working in destinations around the world. Hosted by Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel journalist, photographer, and writer who's worked with National Geographic, The New York Times, BBC Travel, and more. 

Learn more about our show at goingplacesmedia.com.

Our theme music this season, Abbad El Shams, is provided by Rawan Roshni, a Palestinian/Balkan singer based in Jordan.

Mentioned in this episode:

Visit Jordan

This episode and the rest of this season are brought to you by Visit Jordan. Jordan is a beautiful country in the Middle East that has something for everyone: in a relatively small area, it packs diverse landscapes like the Mediterranean forests of Ajloun, deep canyons in Wadi Dana, the Mars-like desert of Wadi Rum, and the Dead Sea, the lowest point on earth. Let Jordan be your host for your Middle Eastern adventures. Go to Visit Jordan to learn more.

Visit Jordan

Transcripts

KG:

Stories come into our lives for a reason.

2

:

You know, we get these stories, be it

ideas, be it something we've read, or

3

:

that sparks, you know, something else.

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:

They choose us for a reason.

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:

And we can either ignore

it, or we can act on it.

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:

YD: Welcome back to our show, everyone.

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:

This is your host, Yulia Denisyuk,

an award winning travel photographer,

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:

writer, community builder,

storyteller, and entrepreneur.

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:

And today we're speaking to my

dear friend and a fellow travel

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:

journalist, photographer, writer,

and podcaster Karthika Gupta, who

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is also based in Chicago, like me,

and who is originally from India.

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Having lived and worked almost half

her life away from her home country,

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Karthika is very much aware of how

important culture and diversity

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:

are in life and in business.

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:

And we're going to touch upon

those themes in the podcast today.

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:

Her work has been featured in Vogue, BBC

Travel, USA Today, Conde Nast Traveler.

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:

Foders, AFAR, Travel and

Leisure, Rob Report, and more.

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:

Karthika is also the founder of

Culturally Ours, a platform dedicated

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:

to promoting cultural understanding

and celebrating global diversity.

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:

Culturally Ours explores lifestyle,

food, art, travel, and culture from

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:

around the world through retreats,

narratives, stories, and conversations.

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:

And the new season of the Culturally

Ours podcast is starting soon.

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:

So be sure to follow Culturally

Ours on whatever platform you're

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:

listening to this show right now.

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In this episode, Karthika

and I cover great distances.

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:

We travel to the flower markets of

Mumbai, the deserts of Jordan, and

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the sustainable farm run by one of the

smallest tribal nations in California.

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:

Karthika shares with us the backstory

to her latest work for Vogue magazine,

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:

the motivation that enables her to keep

pitching her beautiful stories and get

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:

published in places like Vogue, AFAR

and others, and how knowing people

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:

from places we visit can exponentially

increase our understanding of the world.

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:

We also talk about the misconceptions

of traveling to the Middle East and

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why traveling with her two children

is Karthika's favorite way of learning

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:

something new about herself and others.

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If you want to learn more about

Karthika and her work, be sure to

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follow her on Instagram at karthika

Gupta, and we'll also link to her

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work in the show notes as well.

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:

This episode and the entire season of the

show is brought to you by Visit Jordan.

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Be sure to visit myjordanjourney.

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:

com to learn more about

this beautiful place.

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That's myjordanjourney.

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:

com.

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:

All right, now let's get started

with our conversation with my dear

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friend and colleague, Karthika Gupta.

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My friend, Karthika,

welcome to the podcast.

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I'm so excited to have you on again.

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KG: Thank you, Yulia.

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Thank you for having me again.

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This is such a pleasure.

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YD: I know.

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And you know what I was thinking about?

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It's just like, cause you were

on the podcast in our first

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season, when we first started out.

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And by the way, we had an

amazing conversation then you

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guys, you should check it out.

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We'll link to it in the show notes.

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But I was just thinking about how, wow.

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The progress that or the evolution that

the show has made because it's like we

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started over here and now we're over here

and it's kind of cool to think about that.

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KG: Yes, including a name

change, which is pretty cool.

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YD: Yes, which by the way, you guys,

Karthika was integral in helping me

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coming up with a name that we have

right now, for the podcast, so.

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She's awesome in more than one way.

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but there's some interesting things

coming, in that realm, too, next season.

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I won't get into that much

right now, but stay tuned for

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more surprises, I would say.

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but I'm excited.

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I'm really excited to talk to you.

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you know, we always have amazing

conversations on and off screen.

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And so, I'm just really honored, that

you're back with us today, so welcome.

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KG: Thank you for having me again.

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It's truly an honor.

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YD: Awesome.

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so I want to start with, your recent

story for Vogue magazine named, How One

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of the Smallest Tribal Nations in the U.

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S.

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is Redefining Sustainable Living.

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It is such a beautiful story, and

it's so beautifully shot, by the way.

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The images are just...

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beautiful, like the way you've portrayed

these women, it was breathtaking.

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So I definitely encourage our listeners

to also go check out the story.

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We're going to link to

it in the show notes.

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but tell me, what do you

love about the story?

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KG: all of it.

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it was just an unbelievable experience

from the start to the finish.

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There's a lot of elements to this story.

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so I actually met these women.

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About a year ago, I was on a, on a

fam trip with Visit California, they

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were just launching their Visit Native

California, which is an incredible

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endeavor, because they're focusing

on indigenous and, communities and,

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tourism from an indigenous lens, right?

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So, we met these women for dinner.

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And, something about them, just like,

their presence, their, you know, and we

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were, we were sitting at a long table.

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I was sitting across with a couple

of the women that I've eventually

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went on to like meet and, interview

and just, you know, it was, they,

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one of the smallest tribal nations.

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They are, I think they're like

seven adults, and like 12 children.

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So total, you know, under 20, being

over a square, one square mile, of,

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in terms of like reservation land, but

they had some small but incredible

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and impactful programs that they were

working on to become self sustainable,

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I should say, to get more control

over, you know, their lives, their

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reservation, just everything that they

wanted to kind of do for themselves.

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And the story was that, you know,

they are At one point, their mom,

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was the only living adult who was

managing this entire reservation.

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And then she called, you know,

she had some health issues and

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she eventually, passed away

because of those health issues.

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And so the two girls came in,

the Chairwoman Amanda, who then

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called up her cousins and said,

Hey, I can't do this by myself.

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You guys have to come.

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So it's like all the

kids sort of moved away.

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The kids kind of came back

together, to build this,

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community, this endeavor, right?

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So for me, that was very, very powerful.

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I saw a lot of sort of similarities in,

I lost my mom too, to breast cancer and,

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you know, she was a very strong influence

in my life and a lot of my journey after

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she passed also kind of morphed where

I kind of, you know, took a step back

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and then I kind of got myself together,

looked at other skills and, you know,

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I'm kind of doing what I'm doing now.

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So I attribute a lot of that

to my journey with my mom.

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And so seeing that with them, I

don't know, maybe it was like some,

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you know, totally, like, internal

just what I felt, but I really was

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very compelled to tell the story.

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I pitched it, and I pitched it, and

I pitched it, and every time I would

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hear that, oh, that's nice, but No, or

I would not get a response, which is

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very typical in our industry, right?

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And then when I pitched it to, I don't

know, just something about Vogue, sort

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of, especially the Earth to Us section,

which they talk about some of these, you

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know, smaller communities and individuals,

who are making a huge difference.

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And then, you know, maybe in the grand

scheme of things, it's not big but for

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what they are doing and the communities

that they are impacting, it's monumental.

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So I kind of took, again, a leap of

faith and I pitched it to Vogue, never

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imagining that, that would be get

picked up like a few months later.

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and then the editor was like, Hey,

you know, this is a great story.

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It will be really powerful if we can get

imagery, that kind of goes with the story.

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And I was like, you know,

I am a photographer.

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Can I?

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You know, because it's always

such a great feeling when you

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photograph and you write and it's

like a whole holistic view, right?

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Versus trying to fit the narrative to the

images or fit the images to the narrative.

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I'm not saying one way is right, one

way is wrong, it's just different.

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And I really again, I was so passionate

about this story, I wanted to have my

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feet in or my hands in every aspect of it.

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and so he was like, yeah,

sure, if you want to, go ahead.

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so that was, that was one hurdle actually

getting it accepted and then getting, you

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know, the commission even to photograph.

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My next hurdle was the fact

that I literally had a week.

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because I was finishing up

the summer with my kids.

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My daughter was now a freshman.

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We were getting ready to

move her into college.

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I literally had like five business

days to get this, to go to California,

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get it photographed and come back.

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and I worked...

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hand in hand, you know, the hats

off to the Wizard Palm Springs,

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tourism board, the PR agency.

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I just sent an email and I said, Hey, this

is commissioned and this is when it's due.

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And these are the four

days that I can be there.

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Can we make it happen?

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And literally, I think everybody

just said, yes, let's do it.

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And we figured out a way to do it.

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So again, all of these forces that

we're working behind, I don't know.

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There's something there that was,

you know, that was meant to be.

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that's the second hurdle.

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The third hurdle was, um,

I missed both my flights.

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so four hour, four, four and a half

hour, commute time from Chicago to

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Palm Springs ended up being like a

12 hour day, both days, both times.

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And I was just nervous because I

literally had one day to photograph.

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And this, I mean, they are a tribe

that's, heavily, you know, invested

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in, in their business and, you know.

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considering that there are seven adults,

it's not like, Oh, we can't do it today.

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Okay, let's do it tomorrow.

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You know, we'll just move everything.

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And, and I didn't even want

to do that because, you know,

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that was a huge ask, right?

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So we kind of made it work.

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We, you know, we, we got me there

and then the, what was it, four.

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The fifth hurdle was, it was

115 degrees in the desert.

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I'm not, I mean, I don't know about

you, but I'm not used to this.

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I mean, yes, I'm from Mumbai and,

you know, I've grown up in a humid

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environment, but the max I've

gone to is maybe like a hundred.

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And this is my desert heat.

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Being outside in that heat

was incredibly challenging.

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Not just for me.

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But for them, and you know, even

though they live there, this is

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like, they're doing me a favor by

agreeing to kind of share their story

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and agreeing to be photographed.

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So I was very, I was very nervous.

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I had extreme anxiety.

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I was like, Oh my God,

what am I going to do?

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How am I going to photograph these women?

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And it's, you know, Palm Springs,

it's beautiful, but it's when

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it's that hot, you don't see, It's

like your mind just stops, right?

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You can't think creatively.

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so I photographed them.

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I don't know, I just...

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One of the things that Amanda said to

me was that, yeah, you know, this is...

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And she talked about her mom again.

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And that was actually coincidentally

my mom's birthday as well.

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I just felt like all the women

power was there to make me get the

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story like how I wanted and for them

to, even them, they were so open.

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They were so like sharing and

caring about, their story.

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And I was asking so many questions

and they were patiently answering

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me like answering all my questions.

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And I just felt like collectively,

it just, it was meant to be.

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And, thank you for complimenting me

on the photographs because I know

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you're an incredible photographer.

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But it was really hard.

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I wanted to showcase their strength.

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And I felt like, honestly, the,

photographs, the portraits of the

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women with the feathers, which

if you read the story, you'll

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know the meaning of the feathers.

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Those are my favorite because it just

ties their history to, an inanimate

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object, but brings that object

to life and brings them to life.

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So yeah, all these elements sort of,

you know, came together I have to

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say it's one of my favorite stories.

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For all the troubles that

we've all gone through.

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It just, I'm so glad.

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And it's apparently doing

really well on Vogue.

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So that's another, you know,

kind of check Mark, I guess.

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YD: That's a bonus for sure, man.

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you know, you and I were just

talking about this before we started

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recording, how it's so interesting

to hear the backstory of the story.

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Now, knowing the backstory, I

am even more in awe of the story

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because what I've actually picked

up in the images is the magic.

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they really look almost ethereal, almost,

you know, and it's your style, by the way.

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I also recognized your style immediately

in the images, but now, you know, I

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almost had goosebumps when you were

talking about like all these hurdles that

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you had to overcome and how the day was

so hard with the heat and everything,

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but it, it felt like really, Uh, the

manifestation of the power of women coming

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together and doing something magical.

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wow.

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I can definitely see

that in the images now.

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So that's, that's really special.

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And the fact that it

was your mom's birthday.

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on that day, it's just like, you can

not make that stuff up, you know?

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KG: You cannot make that stuff up.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And I, you know, when I think

back at it, as I was talking to

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you, I was just in my mind too.

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I was like, Oh my God, we

all face so many challenges.

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Forget like Personal life in work.

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we face so many challenges, but when we

actually are able to get something to

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completion and to fruition, it's just a

great feeling that, you know, I thought

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about something, I conceptualize something

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and.

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Here it is.

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I actually made it work.

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It doesn't have to be, you

know, this amazing story.

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It can be even the smallest of things,

but I think that just is very powerful and

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goes back to your point about knowing the

story, you know, knowing that backstory

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or knowing where it started from.

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And then, you know, you're able

to kind of take it to completion.

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YD: So I have a couple

of questions, on this.

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One is, so you mentioned that, you know,

you pitched it and pitched it and pitched

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it and it didn't go anywhere for so long.

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Man, how familiar I am with that as well.

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What keeps you going in, in that, right?

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Because I've been at places where I'm

just like, you know what, forget this.

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I'm not even going to pitch it.

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But then at some point later I come back

to it and I start pitching it again.

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So I'm curious, like what keeps

you keep pitching it when you get

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a rejection after rejection, after

no response, after no response.

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KG: Yeah, so for me, that's like twofold.

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And I will credit our common friend,

Iona Brennan, for this, the first piece.

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I remember a long time ago, Iona telling

me that, hey, you know what, stories

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come into our lives for a reason.

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You know, we get these stories, be it

ideas, be it something we've read or

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that sparks, you know, something else.

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They come to our, like,

they choose us for a reason.

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And we can either ignore

it, or we can act on it.

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And the effort is in the action.

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Because I think that, I mean,

this story is not new, right?

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I mean, these, these, this tribe has

been around for a very long time.

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You know, before when, before the, this

current generation came back to the

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reservation, there was another generation.

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They had an equally amazing story.

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So this story has been alive and been

there out in the universe for a long time.

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YD: hmm.

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KG: It shows, I feel, it shows me.

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I just felt very strongly.

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About this piece.

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And there are several pieces.

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We all feel strongly about

several, several stories.

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Right.

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And when I felt like I knew it was a

good story because it came from the

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fact and the fact that I met these

people, and I learned from them.

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And so I was equally determined

to say, Hey, you know what I want

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to give their voice, a space.

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I want to give them a

space to tell their story.

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And I've always believed that, like for

me, the way I write and the way I kind

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of tell stories, it's not my, my view.

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It's their view.

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Or it's your view.

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It's the people who are from there.

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It's their perception.

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So I always like to, pull myself out of

the equation and tell the story, right?

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So the fact that this story came to

me, came into my life, I almost felt

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like I really wanted to tell the story.

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And I just, I don't know, I just

pushed, I just pushed myself.

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even, you know, the, the vote

commission was not, right off the bat.

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And I pitched it over, I think, spring.

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and, you know, it took a while

for it to kind of sit and.

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I don't know how you, like, germinate,

I guess, maybe that's the word for it.

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even with the editor, right?

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I mean, the fact that, the editor

came back and said, Hey, you know what?

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I know you've pitched this a while back.

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Is it still available?

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And if so, I want it.

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So, even that, that statement of

his, like, is it still available?

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In my mind, it's like, okay, so, you

know, stories are around, are with us

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for a reason, and then they move on.

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If I had not done anything with it,

maybe it would have gone to somebody

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else, and they would have picked it.

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So I think if you think about it from

that perspective, it really kind of

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makes you want to keep pushing it.

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you know, I'm not saying it's all fun

and games and, you know, it's, it doesn't

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hurt because it definitely hurts when

you get an objection, you're like, Oh

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my God, you can start doubting yourself.

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But I think that some narratives

just, you just have a gut feeling.

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You've just had that intense emotion

tied to that story you can hold onto that

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and you can kind of push that forward.

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YD: That is so beautiful.

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And by the way, shout out to Ayana,

because what a wise friend we have.

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Like, I love that piece of advice.

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KG: Yes, and I have kind

of told her this too.

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I'm like, remember you

told me all of this?

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that story.

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Remember you said this?

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This is this other story.

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So

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YD: yeah.

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yeah.

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And we have an episode out

with Iona as well, which we're

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going to in the show notes.

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:

So you guys check it out as well.

336

:

She, she shares so much wisdom and

knowledge, in her episode as well.

337

:

You mentioned something about you being

almost like a vessel for the story.

338

:

It's not your story, it's their story.

339

:

Oftentimes, people ask me,

how do I tell a story of a

340

:

community that I don't belong to?

341

:

Or is this my story to tell?

342

:

And I think this is something that

we're all thinking about a lot.

343

:

So what is your approach to that?

344

:

Like, how do you think through that?

345

:

When you are, you know, telling

stories of, of these communities

346

:

or, or of these women, etc.

347

:

KG: I mean, this, for me, it's really

not a scientific approach for me.

348

:

It's honestly, it's, it's a feeling,

you know, some stories, some narratives.

349

:

I just don't know enough.

350

:

I'm not.

351

:

I don't have enough background,

enough education, enough

352

:

knowledge to be confident that

I'm going to tell that story.

353

:

But, you know, like for this story,

there were so many other elements

354

:

that I could draw parallels with,

with my life, the fact that, you know,

355

:

their mom was such a big influence.

356

:

My mom was such a big influence,

their mom, kind of, didn't pass

357

:

in a, in a, Peacefully, I guess.

358

:

so some of those things just

for me, I felt that connection.

359

:

YD: Mm hmm.

360

:

KG: And, you know, I was fairly

confident that I could do a good job.

361

:

and I just always tell myself, That

it's not me who's writing, I'm writing

362

:

through, they're, they're talking

through my writing, if that makes sense.

363

:

And so for me, that's,

that's sort of how I view it.

364

:

there have been a lot of instances where

I've, you know, gotten an idea or a

365

:

story and I'm like, that's a great story.

366

:

But I just don't know enough.

367

:

and I don't know enough of the

background and the history to

368

:

really do a good job with it.

369

:

And then I just let it go.

370

:

Again, going back to, you know, that,

that concept that the story chooses you,

371

:

yes, that story chose me, but I was not

the right fit for it when you let it go.

372

:

It'll find somebody else who is a better

fit for it because it's not, yes, it's,

373

:

you know, we want the accolades, we

want, you know, the road byline and

374

:

all of that stuff, but deep down, we

all come into this business or do this

375

:

thing because we want to tell stories.

376

:

We want to tell these narratives, right.

377

:

And.

378

:

If we do it, but don't do it right, I

think that's a bigger burden to bear

379

:

than to say, I'm just letting this story

go because I know I'm not going to do

380

:

YD: Wow, yeah, no, absolutely.

381

:

And it's such a profound

way to think about it.

382

:

I love it.

383

:

And I resonate with it too,

because that's also how I

384

:

approach, finding stories as well.

385

:

And you know, you and I, we, we are on

the same wavelength on a lot of things.

386

:

So I absolutely resonate with it.

387

:

I wonder, so.

388

:

Sustainability or sustainable

living is a topic that you explore

389

:

in this piece and in a lot of

other work that you do as well.

390

:

And I feel like sustainability

has become one of those terms

391

:

that has just been so overused.

392

:

that it's almost like losing its meaning.

393

:

And when people read the word

sustainable, it's kind of like

394

:

their eyes glaze over, you know.

395

:

There's a lot of other words like that.

396

:

Community is another one.

397

:

So, I wonder, as somebody who really

dedicates a lot of your work towards

398

:

writing about sustainability, you know,

sustainability as a topic, how do you

399

:

ensure that it's a story that continues

to resonate in this landscape where

400

:

it's become such an overused word?

401

:

And I don't know, I'm just really

curious to hear how you think about that

402

:

because I think about that a lot when

I, pitch stories about community or,

403

:

people or whatever, and some of these

terms, they're just become so overused.

404

:

KG: I think, and, and maybe this is kind

of going a little bit against the trend.

405

:

Yeah.

406

:

Maybe what you think I'm

going to answer, but,

407

:

YD: have no idea what you're gonna say.

408

:

So

409

:

KG: I don't think it's overused.

410

:

I think we don't use it enough.

411

:

I feel like, if you kind of say

something as a parent, maybe this

412

:

is where I draw the parallel.

413

:

As I tell my kids certain things over

and over and over again, yes, part of

414

:

me feels like, why am I repeating this?

415

:

The one time that I know that they will

pay attention, makes it all worthwhile.

416

:

Which is why I kind of feel

like it's not overused.

417

:

I mean, we need to kind of keep using

this word because these words, these

418

:

community, this, you know, authentic

and, you know, all these words, I mean,

419

:

we as writers feel like, oh, maybe it's,

you know, done to death and overused.

420

:

But that one person who reads it, who

is motivated and inspired and says,

421

:

you know what, I'm going to look into a

solar panel, or you know what, I'm going

422

:

to look at this, this small patch of

my yard that, I didn't know what to do.

423

:

I'm going to try and grow some

vegetables like this, tribe of nine,

424

:

you know, seven people are doing.

425

:

It's all worth it.

426

:

it's all worth it because collectively,

it makes a huge difference.

427

:

I have another story in, in Thrillist

about this, person in India who has,

428

:

he's a landowner, and he has, ancestral

land in, an area called Jabai, which is.

429

:

full of leopards.

430

:

And there's a tourist element to it,

but there's also a lot of community

431

:

development and conservation

that this one person is doing.

432

:

And when I met him, and he actually, you

know, got his laptop out and he was, he's

433

:

manually cataloging all these leopards.

434

:

There is no government oversight here.

435

:

It's just him doing this.

436

:

But that's making a difference.

437

:

That's making a difference

in his community.

438

:

That's making a difference in his village.

439

:

So, no, I don't think we are overusing it.

440

:

In contrast, I feel like

we're not using it as much.

441

:

Yes, there has to be backing.

442

:

You can't just throw the word out and, you

know, not have it resonate with what's...

443

:

The story or, you know, the backing

to it, but I feel like we need

444

:

to tell more of these stories.

445

:

We need to tell these stories

of these seven people, this one

446

:

person, this, a thousand people

community that's doing something

447

:

because they're the true champions.

448

:

They don't care about, will I

call this sustainable or will

449

:

I call this, you know, green?

450

:

They're just doing it because they feel

it's the right thing to do and that, it's

451

:

making a difference in their lives and

in the lives of the people around them.

452

:

Why should we not use it?

453

:

YD: That's such a beautiful

way to look at it.

454

:

I love it.

455

:

such a hopeful way to look at it too,

456

:

KG: Yes, and I, like I said earlier,

I mean, I think it comes from, you

457

:

know, maybe like being a parent, right?

458

:

I mean, you, you know, my husband and

I, we keep telling our kids, the same

459

:

things over and over and over again.

460

:

Sometimes we look at each other and we're

like, just, why don't we just shut up?

461

:

But there is that hope that, you

know, in the hundred times that I

462

:

tell my daughter something that one

time she will actually listen and

463

:

that will make an impact on her.

464

:

YD: Yeah.

465

:

KG: I'm going to keep saying it.

466

:

YD: That's beautiful.

467

:

So you mentioned India,

468

:

KG: Yes.

469

:

YD: which is where you're from.

470

:

You grew up in Mumbai.

471

:

how do you think growing up

there has affected how you

472

:

move through the world today?

473

:

KG: Sorry, I'm laughing

because it's just so different.

474

:

I mean, life when I was in India,

life was very, very different for me.

475

:

I had, you know, Indian, Indian

community, Indian society.

476

:

And it's probably, it's still the

case because that's Indian culture.

477

:

everybody is around you.

478

:

Everybody's in your face, everybody.

479

:

And that's okay.

480

:

you have your mom and your dad.

481

:

Your neighbors are aunts and uncles.

482

:

You have gazillion cousins.

483

:

Everybody's coming over.

484

:

Collective community.

485

:

and we don't live in these individual

homes where you don't, very rarely,

486

:

I mean, there are some people who do.

487

:

But in Bombay, that's very, very rare.

488

:

So I grew up in a building,

you know, an apartment building

489

:

that had about 20 other flats.

490

:

the doors were always open.

491

:

It was just us having food somewhere else

and, you know, somebody else coming over.

492

:

So it was just very communal feeling.

493

:

And I will admit, when I

first came here to the U.

494

:

S., it was such a shock, because

that's not how life is here.

495

:

YD: Yeah.

496

:

KG: Um, you barely see your

neighbors, you have no idea who

497

:

they are, nobody makes an effort.

498

:

and I don't mean it in a bad

way, I just, you know, every,

499

:

for whatever reason, right?

500

:

It's not, it's not something that's

innate, it's not something that's

501

:

maybe kind of second nature, maybe?

502

:

so it was really hard.

503

:

And, for me, just going through...

504

:

I've now spent half my life in India,

almost more than half my life here.

505

:

So it's definitely a struggle

because I've, you know, wherever

506

:

you are, you kind of absorb that

culture, you, you know, kind of, it

507

:

sort of finds itself in your life.

508

:

So I find myself becoming more

of an introvert because I'm

509

:

used to not talking to anyone.

510

:

And when I go back home

to India, it's like.

511

:

what do you want to do?

512

:

No, I don't.

513

:

I just want to stay back.

514

:

I just want to stay at home.

515

:

so it's always a struggle.

516

:

But, I think it's just different.

517

:

It's just a different way of life.

518

:

And I don't know if, you know, maybe

initially some part of that I carried

519

:

forward to my life here, but now

my life here is very different from

520

:

my life, what was my life there.

521

:

I just try and adjust myself.

522

:

Like when I go back, I, you

know, I can tell myself that

523

:

this is what I grew up with.

524

:

this is a big part of who I am.

525

:

So rather than suppress that, I

kind of let that part of me out.

526

:

and then when I come back, it's

like this part of me comes out.

527

:

So, I think, every part of

the world is so different.

528

:

Every culture is so different.

529

:

And if we can take a little bit of it and

make it our own and just go through life,

530

:

I think that's I think we're better people

that way, rather than sticking to one way.

531

:

This is the way I, you know, I grew

up this, this way in Bombay, and if

532

:

it doesn't fit in the realm of my

existence here, I shouldn't force it

533

:

because that just makes me uncomfortable

and people around me uncomfortable.

534

:

I don't know.

535

:

I don't know if that makes sense.

536

:

I'm probably rambling

537

:

YD: No, no, it makes sense.

538

:

And it's funny that you bring this

up actually, because this is a

539

:

conversation that I see popping up

a lot in various spaces these days.

540

:

in fact, I just recently.

541

:

Listen to a podcast, episode of the Ezra

Klein show, which we're going to link

542

:

to that particular episode, which, Ezra

Klein, he's, currently a New York times

543

:

journalist and he has this podcast and,

he had, uh, I think, social scientists

544

:

on, uh, the podcast and they were talking

about this construct of single family

545

:

home in the United States and what it

has done to the fabric of our society.

546

:

And how it is such a recent

invention in the millennia long

547

:

history of how humans live.

548

:

You know, because the single family

home idea only came in the 50s after the

549

:

war, because, you know, people suddenly

became more prosperous, suddenly, the

550

:

government needed to build more, build,

build, build, and so they were starting

551

:

building these fam, homes for literally

one family, and before that, it was never

552

:

the case, even in the States, which I

found interesting and, and surprising,

553

:

so, it was such a fascinating podcast.

554

:

If you guys are interested in this topic,

definitely check it out too, because it

555

:

talks a lot about how it is for humans.

556

:

It is not, natural to

live in that isolation.

557

:

And a lot of the things that we're

struggling with, like that loneliness

558

:

epidemic, the mental health crisis

in the States, comes from that.

559

:

The fact that we don't have a

support network as robust as

560

:

in some of these other places.

561

:

And I'm not saying that

other places aren't.

562

:

You know, dealing with loneliness or

mental health challenges or not, but

563

:

at least they have if assuming that

their society isn't becoming more

564

:

westernized in the way they live.

565

:

They have the support tool of having that

community and, people around them in a

566

:

way that we just don't in the U S I mean,

it's just a fascinating conversation, I

567

:

KG: it is, it is.

568

:

And as you were talking, I was just

thinking about, you know, experiences

569

:

growing up where, you know, my parents

both worked and there were times when,

570

:

they would be late and it was never a

fear of, Where is Karthika going to be, or

571

:

where's my, where's my sister going to be?

572

:

It was just assumed that the

neighbor would kind of, you

573

:

know, we would knock on the door.

574

:

If nobody answered the door, we would

go knock on a neighbor's door and she'd

575

:

be like, Yeah, come in, just hang out.

576

:

And then my mom would come or my

dad would come and it would be fine.

577

:

And now as a parent, I'm like,

okay, like when I was working,

578

:

it was like, Oh, three o'clock.

579

:

I need to like go.

580

:

I need to like, cause I

have to drive an hour.

581

:

And I have to pick up my kids

from daycare because I'm doing

582

:

everything, me, myself and I.

583

:

YD: Right.

584

:

KG: And it's just like, not to say

that somebody wouldn't have helped if

585

:

I asked, but that ask is not natural.

586

:

That

587

:

ask

588

:

is not,

589

:

YD: Yeah.

590

:

KG: normalized.

591

:

Exactly.

592

:

So you feel odd.

593

:

You feel like, okay, why am I,

why am I burdening somebody else?

594

:

You know, I should be

able to figure this out.

595

:

and if I can't figure

it out, I'm depressed.

596

:

I'm, you know, I'm upset.

597

:

And eventually I quit because

I, you know, I couldn't.

598

:

Do everything right.

599

:

again, not to say that that is the crux

of what's wrong, but that's definitely

600

:

a factor in how we move through life.

601

:

YD: hmm.

602

:

Yeah.

603

:

Tell us more about Mumbai itself.

604

:

What was it like living there?

605

:

I've so, for so long wanted to go

there and just experience the city.

606

:

How, what is it like?

607

:

KG: It's, you know, Mumbai is, and I keep,

will refer it to as Bombay because when

608

:

I was growing up it was Bombay, I know

officially the name's changed to Mumbai,

609

:

but, it's called the City of Dreams,

and there's a reason for it, because,

610

:

there's a lot of migrant population

that comes in, it's the financial, you

611

:

know, financial capital of India, it's,

you know, got Bollywood, it's got,

612

:

so it's got the movie industry, it's

got, you know, the financial industry.

613

:

So a lot of people from all over

India come to Bombay because they

614

:

want to fulfill their dreams.

615

:

They feel like it's a place

where anything can happen.

616

:

You can, there have been stories of,

really like, you know, People who have

617

:

had a very difficult time in life,

coming and getting a big break in the

618

:

movies and, you know, making it big.

619

:

So you have all these

inspirational stories.

620

:

So a lot of people come to Bombay.

621

:

And I think that's what's

the beauty of the city.

622

:

Yes, traffic is a nightmare.

623

:

Yes, you will find people

everywhere you turn.

624

:

And I know a lot of times,

like, when I used to take people

625

:

on trips to India, they would

always say, oh, but it's so loud.

626

:

Oh my God, there's so many people.

627

:

And I'm like, yes, it's a

country of a billion people.

628

:

You won't find people everywhere.

629

:

You just have to accept it

that it's a fact of life.

630

:

But if you accept that, I think there's

something so beautiful because you will

631

:

meet people from all walks of life.

632

:

You will meet people who are

multi millionaires, who have huge

633

:

apartments, and then you will

meet somebody who has nothing.

634

:

I think those experiences, those

stories that you experience, that

635

:

you kind of absorb, really will help

you experience India a lot better.

636

:

it is not, anything

that you will find here.

637

:

know there's a lot of comparison

between Bombay and New York, and yes,

638

:

I get it, but it's just very different.

639

:

You know, I love going back.

640

:

I love going back because

I still have family there.

641

:

I have some very good friends there.

642

:

And that's where I grew up.

643

:

So, my memories, my childhood memories are

associated with, Bombay and with India.

644

:

So for me, it's always going to be home.

645

:

yes, homes changed.

646

:

A lot of things, you know, are

different, but I think if you're up for

647

:

an adventure and you know, you want,

you want to meet people, you want to

648

:

know these stories, it is the place.

649

:

It is the place to go.

650

:

For

651

:

YD: I hope I can go there with you one day

652

:

KG: Yes!

653

:

YD: be amazing.

654

:

KG: I know we've talked about this.

655

:

I mean, you know, the food, just,

656

:

ah, everything.

657

:

YD: You know, I've never felt

more alive anywhere in the

658

:

world than when I was in India.

659

:

It is just,

660

:

I don't know.

661

:

You feel exhilarating all the time.

662

:

KG: Yes.

663

:

And, you know, because

there's so much energy, right?

664

:

not just the people.

665

:

I think the people cause the

vibrations and the energy

666

:

around, you know, around you.

667

:

So, you know, two o'clock in the morning,

I'm not saying this is true everywhere in

668

:

India, but like in Bombay, two o'clock in

the morning, two o'clock in the morning.

669

:

You're not going to be the

only one on the street.

670

:

and there are people going to be out

and about you know, doing things.

671

:

Um, the flower markets, I know this

is another story that, you know,

672

:

came out, recently in, Malaysian

Airlines Going Places magazine.

673

:

I talk about India's flower markets,

like Bombay has an amazing flower market.

674

:

You go at two, three o'clock in

the morning, there's like wheeling,

675

:

dealing, and there's, you know,

flowers of all colors and shades.

676

:

And that just, for you,

that just wakes you up.

677

:

You know, you have this

this view in front of you.

678

:

You don't know where to look.

679

:

You're like, should I look at this guy

who's, you know, kind of selling roses?

680

:

Or should I look at this

person who's selling jasmine?

681

:

And it's just so much energy that you,

you can't help but absorb some of that in.

682

:

YD: I love that.

683

:

I love that.

684

:

And I, yeah, when you were talking

about that market, I thought about

685

:

the, the Tokyo's fish markets.

686

:

It's like the iconic place in Tokyo

and sounds like this is the, one

687

:

of those iconic places to be in.

688

:

KG: You know, it's not, the funny thing is

it's not an iconic place in the sense that

689

:

if you look at most guidebooks and stuff

like that, they will not talk about going

690

:

to a flower market or a vegetable market.

691

:

but it's just one of those things that

you have to experience just because it's

692

:

so different from going to a museum or,

you know, going to like the Gateway of

693

:

India or going to like the Taj Hotel.

694

:

It's very different.

695

:

It's just more normal people things.

696

:

Um, and I think that's such a

great way to experience a place,

697

:

YD: You guys are getting an

insider information right here.

698

:

Go to the flower market in

Mumbai when you're there.

699

:

KG: Definitely.

700

:

And every city has, you know,

every city has something, right?

701

:

I mean, there's like Tokyo's fish market.

702

:

I mean, it didn't start off

as a tourist attraction.

703

:

It was just normal people going

about their day buying fish.

704

:

same thing.

705

:

I mean, you know, the flower market

or the vegetable market, or you go to,

706

:

you know, a shopping mall and it's just

normal people doing everyday things.

707

:

And I think from, at least

that's the way I like to travel.

708

:

YD: is there one flower market or

multiple, or like, what's the name?

709

:

If people want it to go

710

:

there, how do they find it?

711

:

KG: there is the Dadar flower

market, which is, I believe, the

712

:

oldest flower market in Bombay.

713

:

But Bombay is such a, it's grown

so much in terms of just expanding

714

:

and expanding and reclaiming land.

715

:

I think there are about like five or six,

because it's, The population is so spread

716

:

out, not everybody can come, you know,

from two hours away just to download.

717

:

So depending on where you are, just Google

flower market and you'll find something.

718

:

YD: Google help you.

719

:

I love it.

720

:

In addition to both being in the industry

and becoming really good friends.

721

:

We were really fortunate, I

think, to have been one of my

722

:

favorite places on earth together.

723

:

recently, which is, you guys

already know what this place is.

724

:

I talk about it all the time.

725

:

Of course, it's Jordan.

726

:

And so couple, couple, one.

727

:

One or two years ago.

728

:

Oh my

729

:

god, was it?

730

:

Has it already been two years?

731

:

KG: Yeah,

732

:

2021.

733

:

November 2021.

734

:

Yeah.

735

:

YD: Two years ago, Karthika and I,

were in Jordan together, and, I got

736

:

to travel to Wadi Rum with Karthika

and her family, and it was just one of

737

:

the most beautiful experiences, and...

738

:

I wonder, have you felt, particularly

about visiting Petra, because in

739

:

one of your articles, you talk about

that you first learned about Petra

740

:

through going and, watching the

Indiana Jones movie with your mom.

741

:

so you had, you know, you had a

special memory about this place

742

:

without, without ever seeing it.

743

:

So how did it, make you feel when

you actually went there and, and

744

:

brought your own family now to Petra?

745

:

KG: It was phenomenal.

746

:

I mean, you know, again, this

was the first Indiana Jones

747

:

movie was like with 1980s.

748

:

My mom was a huge adventure.

749

:

She loved, loved, loved traveling.

750

:

I remember seeing this movie

and, and it was phenomenal.

751

:

You know, the last scene where he's

riding through from the treasury.

752

:

It just stuck with me.

753

:

And it was just such an

iconic part of Petra.

754

:

And thanks to you, we got to do Petra

in a very different way, I think.

755

:

And I really appreciated that

because, you know, going through

756

:

the back entrance and hiking.

757

:

And again, it was something

that as a family, we love to do.

758

:

We love to kind of hike and

camp and we do all that.

759

:

So, kind of.

760

:

Experiencing this magical place,

but experiencing it my way.

761

:

I think for me that just really solidified

it as, a goal of a lifetime, right?

762

:

Because if I had done what every other

tourist does and just, you know, go to the

763

:

treasury, yeah, it would be spectacular.

764

:

I would, you know, I definitely have

been, it would have been a wow moment.

765

:

But the fact that we got this sort

of back view, and our guide was so

766

:

amazing and he, you know, he shared

the history of the place and he, you

767

:

know, he shared his experiences, his

knowledge, his life living there.

768

:

I think all of that just made

it that much more relatable.

769

:

So when I did see that, you know, that

glimpse of the treasury and I, you

770

:

know, did have the memory of, kind of

being in that theater with my mom, I

771

:

had my kids with me, my husband with me.

772

:

It was just, it was such a.

773

:

Came full circle, I guess

is what I want to use.

774

:

but full circle in a way

that made sense, for me.

775

:

So, it's just, you know, it's just

that, that experience, such an, such

776

:

experiences kind of live with you forever.

777

:

Yannicka, my daughter, she still

talks about, kind of Wadi Rum and,

778

:

YD: Really?

779

:

Oh, that makes me so happy.

780

:

KG: absolutely.

781

:

Meeting, meeting, you know,

Emma, then, you know, the

782

:

team at, at the Bedouin camp.

783

:

Those are memories that, you know, my

kids have, will have for their lives.

784

:

Again, because we did it in a

way that, was very relatable

785

:

to how we travel in general.

786

:

so I think that kind of, you know,

really helps kind of put that memory,

787

:

ingrain that memory deep in your

brain because you can associate

788

:

with it in on so many levels.

789

:

It's not just one instance

that you have a connection.

790

:

You have multiple layers of

connection to that story.

791

:

YD: I will never forget how we were

sitting on the floor at Fala's house.

792

:

Remember when Fala invited us over to

have lunch with him and the family?

793

:

And we're all spread out

and we're all eating.

794

:

Oh my God, what were we, what did we have?

795

:

Was it mansaf?

796

:

No, I don't remember what it was.

797

:

It was rice, rice pilaf something.

798

:

KG: Yes.

799

:

And it was like, it was on the

plate and everybody was kind of

800

:

sharing from that plate, right?

801

:

And again, we would go to a hotel.

802

:

I mean, we stayed in a hotel in Petra.

803

:

Um, that's not the experience that we had.

804

:

We were still the four of us,

four of us at the dinner table.

805

:

YD: hmm.

806

:

KG: this lunch was with.

807

:

The whole family,

808

:

YD: hmm.

809

:

KG: was so special

810

:

YD: Mm hmm.

811

:

KG: sticks with you.

812

:

You ask me what, you know, what was the

dining room of the Marriott in Petra

813

:

London, but you asked me, what was, you

know, what was the living room where

814

:

you ate like, and I can, if I close

my eyes, it's just, I have that vision

815

:

right in front of

816

:

me

817

:

YD: too.

818

:

Me too.

819

:

Mm

820

:

KG: tell you the color of the couch.

821

:

I can tell you where we were

sitting and those things, because

822

:

it just was an experience that

was very, again, relatable to

823

:

me.

824

:

YD: Mm

825

:

KG: It

826

:

was like, oh my God, what am I doing here?

827

:

It was like, wow.

828

:

YD: Mm

829

:

KG: am here.

830

:

I am here.

831

:

YD: Yeah.

832

:

Oh,

833

:

it was so beautiful.

834

:

But you know, there are so

many misconceptions about,

835

:

this region, and so I wonder...

836

:

Was there anything that you

encountered in Jordan that perhaps

837

:

surprised you or perhaps, something

that you saw in a different way?

838

:

Just talk to me a little bit about

that part of it because it's the

839

:

Middle East, you know, and the

Middle East is the region that

840

:

KG: I agree.

841

:

I know exactly where you're going

and I'll tell you my, and this is

842

:

something we've talked about as well

as a family before doing Jordan.

843

:

And honestly I did Jordan, because of you.

844

:

Right.

845

:

I mean the, the stories that you've

told, the experiences you've shared

846

:

with me, I was like, wow, that

seems like a really nice place.

847

:

it's the Middle East.

848

:

we had never, prior to Jordan, we,

in fact, after Jordan too, we've

849

:

never been back to the Middle East.

850

:

so there was, again, there was this, I

don't wanna say preconceived notions,

851

:

but there was what we were seeing, what

we were hearing, what we were reading.

852

:

that, you know,

853

:

gave us a view of,

okay, should we do this?

854

:

Is it safe?

855

:

will we have a good experience there?

856

:

And the thing that really I kept

pushing was that, yes, we will,

857

:

because we know this person.

858

:

who shares similar values as us, who

is there, who has done this multiple

859

:

times, who talks about all these

wonderful experiences as an outsider,

860

:

I'm sure that we will have a great time.

861

:

And, you know, when we landed and when we

met, I forget his name, our, our wonderful

862

:

driver, not driver, our guy, Yes, we met

Basel and he just, again, it was, he was

863

:

so warm and, you know, welcoming and, it

was comforting to know that, you know,

864

:

he, as he's a, he's a dad, he's a husband.

865

:

He's, you know, he's from there.

866

:

He's, he's shared his life experiences.

867

:

So knowing that.

868

:

At the end of the day, we're all the same.

869

:

You know, we, we may live

in a different place.

870

:

We may look different.

871

:

We might, you know, the color

of our skin might be different.

872

:

We might speak different languages,

but we all want the same thing, right?

873

:

I mean, we all want a good

life to be healthy, to see our

874

:

families, you know, kind of succeed

and, and, you know, be happy.

875

:

None of that changes just because

you live in the Middle East or you

876

:

live in Chicago or you live in Tokyo.

877

:

You have to go with that mindset

because otherwise it's just you never

878

:

step out of what you know and what

you, what is in your immediate circle.

879

:

And it's such a beautiful

world outside of that circle.

880

:

so I'm so glad we went because Apart

from what you see in the news and what

881

:

you hear in the news, when you're there

and you meet people who live there and

882

:

you hear their stories, you realize

that, again, like I said, I don't want

883

:

to kind of say the same thing again,

but it's just you in a different form.

884

:

YD: Yeah.

885

:

I love that.

886

:

KG: Exactly what your life is like.

887

:

in a different, you know, in

different part of the world.

888

:

I'm really glad we went and I'm

really glad I took my kids there

889

:

too because again, you know, for

them it was eye opening to the fact

890

:

that, he talked about his children.

891

:

You know, we met, some of the other

kids there and it was just, it was just

892

:

a great feeling to be in their place.

893

:

That's so misunderstood.

894

:

for whatever, you know, whatever the

reasons, I don't, you know, I'm not going

895

:

to justify whether that's right or wrong,

but it's just that, you know, being there

896

:

just opened our eyes to the fact that

these are people just like you and me.

897

:

YD: So you mentioned people a couple

of times and it just makes me so

898

:

happy because this is exactly what

I've kind of dedicated my work

899

:

in a lot of ways is, to bringing

stories of people to the forefront.

900

:

And I think you, you as well, you know,

this is something that drives you as

901

:

well, but especially in places like

the Middle East, this is exactly the

902

:

journey that happens that until we

connect to a specific person there.

903

:

We just have this vague concept

of a place, the Middle East.

904

:

But once we know Basil the driver and

how wonderful he is, all of a sudden, it

905

:

becomes something different, you know?

906

:

And that's, I think, the

journey, and that's why...

907

:

It motivates me so much to keep

bringing stories of, of people,

908

:

from all these different places.

909

:

And, I think for you as well, right?

910

:

So you're a travel photographer,

amazing photographer, you're a writer,

911

:

you're a storyteller, you've been

working with a variety of publications.

912

:

We mentioned Vogue, we mentioned...

913

:

Afar, Conde many others.

914

:

And by the way, we'll link to

Karthika's work in the show notes

915

:

too, so you guys check it out.

916

:

But tell me more about this passion

of yours, to bring those cultural

917

:

narratives to the forefront.

918

:

why is that the thing that you've chosen

as the lens through which you kind of take

919

:

all your work, and bring it to the world?

920

:

KG: I think it's like, you know, a few

different, few different reasons, right?

921

:

I mean, this is not what

I went to school for.

922

:

This is not what I started my career as.

923

:

you know, I have an IT background

and I, I worked in corporate for

924

:

a long time and for a while that

was just who my persona was.

925

:

now when I, you know, when I meet

people, I want them to know my story.

926

:

I want them to know who I am,

where I come from, what I've

927

:

been doing, what I'm doing now.

928

:

What I will do in the future.

929

:

And I think that if you focus on the

people and you focus on their stories,

930

:

you have a stronger connection.

931

:

I, you know, when, when somebody

tells me, okay, like you asked me,

932

:

tell me about Bombay, tell me about

Indy, like, you know, your life.

933

:

I want to tell you my story, right?

934

:

I don't want to tell you.

935

:

Yes, I started off with the fact that

Bombay is an amazing place, but you

936

:

know, I kind of hope I kind of drove the

point that it's the people, you know,

937

:

there are a lot of people, they have

such amazing stories and they have these

938

:

beautiful dreams that they come for.

939

:

So for me, it's again, always the people

and everywhere I go, if I don't, like

940

:

I, try as much as possible to try and

connect with the people on the ground,

941

:

whether it's going to a local cafe.

942

:

Whether it's, you know, finding

a tour to somebody who's, who's

943

:

from there, who's talking about, a

museum, but from their lens, right?

944

:

I mean, it, for me, it's great to hear

those narratives because I feel like

945

:

those are much stronger narratives of a

place, with the people who live there.

946

:

And so much of it also comes from, you

know, India, for the longest time, people

947

:

had this vision of India as people are.

948

:

starving on the streets and, kids,

you know, kind of working in slums.

949

:

And, and yes, that's not to say

that that doesn't exist, but

950

:

there are also other really happy

stories that come out of India.

951

:

I wrote about this women's collective

in Jaipur, which is, highly touristy

952

:

city, but nobody talks about these

little collectives that are doing amazing

953

:

things for these women in terms of giving

them financial stability and freedom.

954

:

And if I had not gone there, if I

had not, you know, gone and visited

955

:

them and sat down with them and

heard their story, I wouldn't know.

956

:

I would still just go to Hawa

Mahal or, you know, go to the,

957

:

things that Jaffa was famous for.

958

:

I feel like we need to tell these stories

and it's, when you and I and whoever

959

:

else, you know, kind of talk about

their lives, we sort of light up, right?

960

:

I mean, we light up because

we are so happy sharing.

961

:

small part of our lives with this

other person who's asked the question,

962

:

tell me about your childhood.

963

:

Tell me about, you know,

your life in Bombay.

964

:

Tell me about Estonia.

965

:

You know, it's like, I want to know.

966

:

I'm, I'm, I'm curious in the sense that

not because I want to make you feel

967

:

uncomfortable, but I'm curious because

I want to try and find a connection with

968

:

you so that you are more relatable to me.

969

:

And when you become more

970

:

relatable to me, that

friendship grows, right?

971

:

So that's sort of always been my thing

that, you know, if I'm going somewhere,

972

:

if I'm meeting somebody, I want to know, I

want to know a little bit of their life so

973

:

I can draw parallels and I can say, yes,

I understand now what you mean by that,

974

:

because I went through something similar.

975

:

and I think that sort of feeds my

drive for telling these stories,

976

:

because a place is just a place,

it's just buildings and, you know,

977

:

brick walls and things like that.

978

:

I think what makes it interesting

are the people, their stories, their

979

:

interactions, you know, the foods,

the clothes, the cultural element, the

980

:

temples or the mosques, whatever it

is, that's what makes it interesting.

981

:

YD: Oh my God, I couldn't agree more.

982

:

I couldn't agree more.

983

:

That's, that's exactly how I feel that

it's the people that make travel so

984

:

special and so exhilarating and beautiful.

985

:

I think you and I also share this other.

986

:

characteristic, which is

curiosity about the world,

987

:

like we were just talking before

we started recording, how wide

988

:

the world is, how many interesting

and beautiful places they are that

989

:

are so different, from each other.

990

:

And it's that, urge to.

991

:

To learn more about them and to, to

learn more about the people and to

992

:

discover in the end that while the

places are different, the people are

993

:

fundamentally all wanting the same things.

994

:

I think it's just such a, such a

powerful belief and a mission to be on

995

:

KG: Honestly, it's easier to I

feel like now, there's so many

996

:

ways that you can interact with.

997

:

local communities and, people.

998

:

There shouldn't be an excuse to say,

oh, I did not find the information

999

:

or I did not know where to look.

:

00:48:16,192 --> 00:48:18,912

And I think people like you and me

kind of focus on these stories and

:

00:48:18,922 --> 00:48:22,838

these, these stories about people

are published, that's another avenue

:

00:48:22,848 --> 00:48:24,938

for others to get information, right?

:

00:48:25,138 --> 00:48:29,824

Now you go to Palm Springs, maybe you

will drive to, because they have a farm.

:

00:48:30,024 --> 00:48:30,574

YD: Mhm.

:

00:48:30,894 --> 00:48:33,354

KG: They sell produce in the

farm and they have classes,

:

00:48:33,374 --> 00:48:34,834

educational classes in the farm.

:

00:48:34,834 --> 00:48:38,274

So maybe if you have time, you will, you

know, remember the story and you will

:

00:48:38,274 --> 00:48:39,834

actually go there and you will do that.

:

00:48:39,924 --> 00:48:43,514

Or you will go to Wadi Rum and instead

of staying in, you know, a bubble

:

00:48:43,534 --> 00:48:47,330

tent hotel, you will, you will stay

at, The Bedouin camp and you will

:

00:48:47,350 --> 00:48:50,950

learn a little bit about them because

Julia wrote about them or, you know,

:

00:48:50,990 --> 00:48:52,224

kind of we talked about this, right?

:

00:48:52,224 --> 00:48:56,450

So I think there's information, a

lot more information now and access

:

00:48:56,450 --> 00:49:00,890

to that information is also so much

easier now that there shouldn't be

:

00:49:00,890 --> 00:49:05,320

any barriers for you to experience

the place in a more richer way.

:

00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:06,270

YD: Absolutely.

:

00:49:06,350 --> 00:49:06,960

Absolutely.

:

00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,740

What I've been thinking a lot

lately, though, is that the flip

:

00:49:10,740 --> 00:49:14,280

side of that is that there's

often like too much information.

:

00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:19,500

You don't even know what's real and what's

not, what's, you know, what's a trust.

:

00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:23,460

I feel like so many people are

so overwhelmed, in making some

:

00:49:23,470 --> 00:49:25,010

of these choices, you know?

:

00:49:25,129 --> 00:49:28,569

That's when I feel like going back to

what you said earlier, which is that

:

00:49:28,769 --> 00:49:30,589

connect with somebody who is from there.

:

00:49:30,639 --> 00:49:34,269

Connect with somebody who

knows who is a local, or who

:

00:49:34,269 --> 00:49:36,099

is part of the local community.

:

00:49:36,149 --> 00:49:39,749

and that's how you're gonna be

able to, to realize that a Bedouin

:

00:49:39,749 --> 00:49:41,699

camp is the way to go, you know?

:

00:49:41,799 --> 00:49:45,989

it's fascinating, and honestly, Karthika,

you're helping me right now a little

:

00:49:45,989 --> 00:49:52,799

bit to see our roles in even a new

light, I would say, because that idea

:

00:49:52,799 --> 00:49:57,599

of us spreading that information and

helping somebody make that decision,

:

00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:01,709

maybe a better informed decision,

honestly, I haven't thought about

:

00:50:01,709 --> 00:50:03,829

it in that way too much in the past.

:

00:50:03,829 --> 00:50:04,509

So thank you.

:

00:50:04,509 --> 00:50:05,419

I actually appreciate that.

:

00:50:05,419 --> 00:50:06,379

I'm going to take it on.

:

00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:09,549

I'm going to take it forward

through, uh, with me.

:

00:50:09,549 --> 00:50:11,659

Cause that's, that's a really

beautiful way to put it.

:

00:50:12,139 --> 00:50:13,379

KG: and you know, and maybe it's.

:

00:50:13,579 --> 00:50:15,369

Because I'm in this space, right?

:

00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:19,129

because now when I, when I'm looking

at a new place, I look at my friends,

:

00:50:19,129 --> 00:50:22,029

I look at their portfolios, I look

at, you know, have they been there?

:

00:50:22,039 --> 00:50:23,809

Have they, do they know someone?

:

00:50:24,009 --> 00:50:29,279

And I feel like social media, for whatever

it's, Bad things are, and there are a lot.

:

00:50:29,379 --> 00:50:30,869

it's also, there's a lot of good.

:

00:50:31,079 --> 00:50:34,369

reaching out to somebody and saying,

Hey, I'm, you know, I see you're from

:

00:50:34,369 --> 00:50:37,829

here, or I see you've written this,

or, you know, I see you going there.

:

00:50:38,029 --> 00:50:39,639

Do you have any recommendations?

:

00:50:39,672 --> 00:50:42,072

do you know somebody who I

can connect with because I

:

00:50:42,072 --> 00:50:43,242

want to get more information?

:

00:50:43,442 --> 00:50:47,212

I was on an Arctic cruise over

the summer with my daughter.

:

00:50:47,412 --> 00:50:52,772

And I, I just happened to go on the

ship's Instagram, and I saw that there

:

00:50:52,772 --> 00:50:58,022

was another, writer, photographer who was

on a previous, cruise with, with Aurora,

:

00:50:58,222 --> 00:51:02,142

and I just messaged her, and I said, Hey,

I'm, you know, doing this, a month from

:

00:51:02,142 --> 00:51:04,282

now, and, and this was my first cruise.

:

00:51:04,482 --> 00:51:08,392

So I was like, any advice, you know, how

is the ship like and stuff like that?

:

00:51:08,392 --> 00:51:09,482

Just simple questions.

:

00:51:09,512 --> 00:51:12,992

And she gave me so much information,

helpful information that, you

:

00:51:12,992 --> 00:51:16,072

know, I feel like I really

benefited from that conversation.

:

00:51:16,152 --> 00:51:19,032

So am I saying everybody

is going to respond to you?

:

00:51:19,082 --> 00:51:23,522

Probably not, but that shouldn't stop you

from reaching out and saying, Hey, this

:

00:51:23,522 --> 00:51:25,186

is what I'm thinking, or I'm interested.

:

00:51:25,386 --> 00:51:27,696

Can you point me in the right direction?

:

00:51:27,696 --> 00:51:29,726

Or do you know someone who'd

be willing to talk to you?

:

00:51:29,726 --> 00:51:32,986

It's incredible how many people are

willing to help if you just ask.

:

00:51:33,346 --> 00:51:36,036

At least that's, that's my,

that's my experience has been,

:

00:51:36,236 --> 00:51:38,576

again, it goes back to the

whole, you know, people are

:

00:51:38,576 --> 00:51:40,366

what make a place beautiful.

:

00:51:40,566 --> 00:51:45,146

YD: And, and even to what we said

earlier about, you know, how community

:

00:51:45,346 --> 00:51:49,506

is a, is a support mechanism that we

have and reaching out and asking for

:

00:51:49,506 --> 00:51:55,046

help, which may feel like a burden in

some scenarios, but actually more, more

:

00:51:55,246 --> 00:51:59,496

often than not, people are willing to

help and it even ties back to pitching,

:

00:51:59,811 --> 00:52:03,816

you know, and, and, even though you

might not get a response or even

:

00:52:03,816 --> 00:52:07,656

though you might get a rejection,

somebody at some point will say yes.

:

00:52:07,856 --> 00:52:08,226

KG: Yes.

:

00:52:08,426 --> 00:52:12,436

YD: And give your story an

avenue to, to be published.

:

00:52:12,436 --> 00:52:15,876

So it's interesting, just so

many parallels to the whole

:

00:52:15,876 --> 00:52:19,146

conversation that we had today,

which I, which I absolutely love.

:

00:52:19,146 --> 00:52:20,896

And that's why I love

talking to you, Karthika.

:

00:52:20,916 --> 00:52:25,366

I find that our conversations are

always, really soul nourishing, you know?

:

00:52:25,436 --> 00:52:25,736

KG: Yes.

:

00:52:25,836 --> 00:52:29,465

I know we start off with one thing

and then we kind of go across

:

00:52:29,485 --> 00:52:32,845

the room to something completely

different and eventually get back.

:

00:52:33,275 --> 00:52:34,575

yes, like, or is my friend.

:

00:52:39,801 --> 00:52:43,381

YD: So, I think we're going to

start closing, even though I don't

:

00:52:43,381 --> 00:52:46,581

know how this hour has passed

already, we just started talking.

:

00:52:46,940 --> 00:52:50,270

But I want to ask you one final

question, and that is, you know, you've

:

00:52:50,290 --> 00:52:53,400

mentioned a couple of things that

you've done, recently, you've been on

:

00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,580

an Arctic cruise with your daughter,

you went and produced this incredible

:

00:52:57,780 --> 00:53:02,660

story of one of the smallest nations

in California and what they're doing.

:

00:53:02,690 --> 00:53:04,990

You know, you've been to

Jordan, you've been to so many

:

00:53:04,990 --> 00:53:06,590

places over the past few years.

:

00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:12,420

What would you say brings you the most

joy and delight in your life right now?

:

00:53:12,620 --> 00:53:14,600

KG: So my kids are older now.

:

00:53:14,750 --> 00:53:17,950

I have one out of the house

already, and one's in high school.

:

00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:24,590

And for me, honestly, it's always

been sharing this journey with them.

:

00:53:24,690 --> 00:53:26,520

I love traveling with them.

:

00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:31,640

Yes, they can be an absolute pain at

times, but I love traveling with them.

:

00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:33,110

I'm not a solo traveler.

:

00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:37,339

I don't do well in big groups, but I

don't do well in, in just by myself.

:

00:53:37,339 --> 00:53:41,575

For me, ideally is ex sharing that

experience with somebody who really

:

00:53:41,595 --> 00:53:43,585

matters to me or people who matter to me.

:

00:53:43,685 --> 00:53:48,895

So for me, it's been, this journey has

been so much more fulfilling in, there's

:

00:53:48,905 --> 00:53:52,455

those experiences where I've been able

to kind of share it with them or share

:

00:53:52,455 --> 00:53:57,756

it with a good friend, because I feel

like, I gain a lot more in terms of.

:

00:53:57,956 --> 00:54:01,556

My experience, my daughter on the

cruise, she's very much a social

:

00:54:01,556 --> 00:54:03,795

butterfly and it was a small cruise.

:

00:54:03,995 --> 00:54:08,935

It was just 38 of us, but I swear, I think

the second day Neneka knew everybody's

:

00:54:08,935 --> 00:54:13,635

name and she was having a conversation

with everybody and she forced me to,

:

00:54:13,835 --> 00:54:16,615

you know, she's like, okay, the two

weeks that we are on this cruise, we

:

00:54:16,615 --> 00:54:18,055

are not going to eat by ourselves.

:

00:54:18,255 --> 00:54:21,215

We are going to try and eat with

everybody at a couple of times.

:

00:54:21,415 --> 00:54:23,895

And you know, I love, that idea.

:

00:54:24,095 --> 00:54:28,335

And so for me, I want to try and, you

know, I learned something from her on

:

00:54:28,335 --> 00:54:31,838

that cruise, whereas, you know, yes,

I talk about it being about people,

:

00:54:31,858 --> 00:54:34,928

but sometimes, you know, we kind of

don't want to take that first step.

:

00:54:35,028 --> 00:54:38,138

We, especially introverts like me,

it's just, it takes a little bit for

:

00:54:38,148 --> 00:54:43,118

me to kind of open up and, you know,

can share with someone and so, but

:

00:54:43,128 --> 00:54:45,468

she was just like, boom, she's out.

:

00:54:45,578 --> 00:54:49,508

She's like making all these friends and

she had friends, like, I think the oldest

:

00:54:49,518 --> 00:54:54,418

person was like 75 years old and she's

chatting with him and she's talking to him

:

00:54:54,418 --> 00:54:56,588

and it was such a beautiful thing to see.

:

00:54:56,788 --> 00:55:00,788

I learned something from, from them,

from my family every time we travel.

:

00:55:00,788 --> 00:55:01,778

So I love traveling.

:

00:55:02,245 --> 00:55:05,805

YD: As someone who's traveled with

your family too, I can attest.

:

00:55:06,005 --> 00:55:10,095

To the fact that it is so

fun, your family is so fun.

:

00:55:10,105 --> 00:55:15,671

And I had so much fun with you guys

and, hope that you have lots more

:

00:55:15,671 --> 00:55:19,571

opportunities to do that, with your

family and with the people you love.

:

00:55:20,131 --> 00:55:21,330

KG: um, yes, I know.

:

00:55:21,330 --> 00:55:22,240

I hope so, too.

:

00:55:22,330 --> 00:55:25,530

you know, especially with one out

of the house, it's, it's definitely

:

00:55:25,540 --> 00:55:29,510

challenging, but, Yeah, I think

it's just, like, for me, the kind of

:

00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,290

traveler that I am and the kind of

person that, you know, I aspire to be.

:

00:55:33,330 --> 00:55:37,690

I want to have those experiences

with someone because I feel I learn

:

00:55:37,690 --> 00:55:39,450

so much more from that person.

:

00:55:39,650 --> 00:55:41,270

You know, as long as

the connection is there.

:

00:55:41,470 --> 00:55:42,240

YD: Absolutely.

:

00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,040

And that's why we travel at the end of

the day to learn something, to expand

:

00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:51,435

our horizons, to really make our life and

more interesting journey on this planet.

:

00:55:51,435 --> 00:55:51,975

So

:

00:55:52,140 --> 00:55:53,490

KG: Yes, for sure.

:

00:55:53,590 --> 00:55:54,980

my first press trip.

:

00:55:54,980 --> 00:55:58,950

I still remember the friends I

made, the experiences I had because

:

00:55:59,030 --> 00:56:01,260

it was a pleasant, you know, it

was a really good experience.

:

00:56:01,460 --> 00:56:04,050

I still remember the first

time I traveled with my kids.

:

00:56:04,090 --> 00:56:07,564

Um, first few of the, travel

experiences that we had, like I

:

00:56:07,564 --> 00:56:09,134

had with my family, my parents.

:

00:56:09,334 --> 00:56:10,434

I remember those things.

:

00:56:10,444 --> 00:56:13,744

So I think, you know, the, the

more we kind of, do some of these

:

00:56:13,744 --> 00:56:16,694

things that are enriching for

us, whatever that means for you.

:

00:56:16,814 --> 00:56:19,804

I think at the end of the day, when

you think back, you have good memories.

:

00:56:19,814 --> 00:56:21,924

So, like you said, that's

what life is all about.

:

00:56:22,124 --> 00:56:22,594

YD: Awesome.

:

00:56:22,794 --> 00:56:24,784

Well, Karthika, thank you so much.

:

00:56:24,924 --> 00:56:26,854

Another beautiful conversation.

:

00:56:26,954 --> 00:56:32,094

Let's not wait seven, eight seasons

to, to have another catch up.

:

00:56:32,210 --> 00:56:35,970

I really love the distances we

covered today, we traveled to India,

:

00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,570

we traveled to Jordan together.

:

00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,861

We, touched on some

really important topics.

:

00:56:39,861 --> 00:56:41,611

So I really appreciate it.

:

00:56:41,651 --> 00:56:45,631

And I can't wait to see you again,

somewhere fabulous in the world.

:

00:56:45,831 --> 00:56:47,181

KG: Thank you for having me, Yulia.

:

00:56:48,986 --> 00:56:51,886

YD: Thank you so much for

listening to our podcast today.

:

00:56:51,976 --> 00:56:55,165

If you've been enjoying listening

to our show, please take a moment

:

00:56:55,165 --> 00:56:59,635

to leave us a rating or review

on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or

:

00:56:59,635 --> 00:57:01,705

share this episode on social media.

:

00:57:02,305 --> 00:57:07,645

Our lovely theme music this season, Abbad

El Shams, is provided by Rowan Roshni,

:

00:57:07,885 --> 00:57:13,035

a Palestinian Balkan singer based in

Jordan who experiments across genres.

:

00:57:13,395 --> 00:57:15,835

Our partner this season is Visit Jordan.

:

00:57:16,198 --> 00:57:19,785

My name is Yulia Denisyuk

and I will see you next week.

:

00:57:19,945 --> 00:57:21,815

Take care and safe travels.

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