Shownotes
Our Tribute to Rich Mulllins
This Curious Goldfish episode, hosted by Jason English, explores the influential legacy of Christian music artist Rich Mullins with guest Jacob Furr, a singer-songwriter from Fort Worth. They delve into Mullins' profound impact on their personal faith journeys, emphasizing his unique approach to Christian music that transcended traditional mediocrity with depth and authenticity. Mullins' most famous song, 'Awesome God', is discussed alongside other notable works like 'Hello Old Friends'. The episode also ventures into Furr's personal history, including his tragic loss and subsequent musical journey, highlighting an upcoming project inspired by his family history related to a poor farm in Arkansas. Additionally, both host and guest reflect on their experiences with conservative Christian teachings, contrasting them with Mullins' more open and questioning approach to faith. The episode ends with Furr's plans for future music projects and a live performance.
00:00 Opening Thoughts and Musical Influences
01:03 Introducing Curious Goldfish Podcast
01:42 Jacob Furr's Journey and Spiritual Turn
02:06 A Tribute to Rich Mullins
05:53 Lamenting Time at a Conservative Christian Camp
07:06 Jacob's Future Projects and Storytelling Challenges
07:29 Exploring Family History Through Music
11:12 The Art of Storytelling in Songwriting
14:18 Revisiting Rich Mullins' Legacy
17:31 Reflecting on Rich Mullins' Impact
18:03 The Uncool Yet Profound Influence of Rich Mullins
19:07 Navigating the Christian Music Scene
19:55 Discovering the Underground Christian Songwriting Scene
21:06 Exploring Personal Connections with Rich Mullins' Music
23:01 Deconstructing from a Conservative Christian Background
26:40 Rich Mullins: A Beacon for the Questioning and Sensitive
31:35 Pursuing Authentic Music Beyond Mainstream Influence
32:24 Planning Future Music Projects
33:24 A Potential Collaboration and Closing Thoughts
Transcripts
I just wanted to get this off my
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:Jason English (Host): Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Jacob Furr: yeah, that awesome God stuff.
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:And like a lot of his.
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:stuff was so Jesus centered and
that was such an important part of
7
:his life, but I connected with so
much of his, the songs that were not
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:necessarily, so Christian on his albums.
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:I don't know that he would like be into
that or not because he was really Really
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:into Jesus and really into the Christian
Sort of mindset and like questioning
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:that and I was too when I was a kid
as I've gotten older I've gotten more
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:into like like that old friend like
hello old friends like I love that song
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:There's so many good parts in there.
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:you were talking about what Susan said
or Like even songs like Jacob and two
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:women that's such a weird song when you're
a teenager listening to Rich Mullins
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:Like what is this guy talking about?
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:And then the older you
get you get more into it.
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:You're like, oh, this is
really This is super cool
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:Jason English (Host): Welcome to
curious goldfish, a podcast community
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:where music and curiosity come together
through interesting conversations
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:with the music makers of our world.
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:I'm your host, Jason English.
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:You can find curious goldfish and all the
major podcast and social media platforms.
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:And of course, we have all of
our content on our website.
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:Curious goldfish.
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:com.
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:This is part two of a two part series with
Fort Worth singer songwriter, Jacob Furr.
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:Please check out the first
episode if you haven't already.
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:I talked to Jacob about the Fort
Worth music scene and his album he
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:released last year called Turning.
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:Jacob also opened up about his
tragic loss of his wife to brain
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:cancer when he was just 26 and all
the things surrounding that he had
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:to endure in order to move forward.
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:In this episode, things take
a little more spiritual turn.
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:Two days before I spoke with Jacob,
he posted a clip of himself covering
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:a song by the late Christian
music legend, Rich Mullins.
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:Called hello old friends.
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:And it went something like this.
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:Jacob Furr: Hello, old friends
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:There's really nothing new to say The
old, old story bears repeating The
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:plain old truth grows dearer every day
When you find something worth believing
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:That's the joy that nothing can take
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:So
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:after all these
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:did we sow the seed,
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:now that the harvest calls us here.
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:It seems that love blooms out of season.
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:Much joy can blossom from love.
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:Yeah.
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:So you must forget what
you had to forgive.
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:Let love be stronger than the feelings
that rage and run beneath the surface.
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:bridge.
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:Knowing the morning follows evening,
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:Makes each new day come as a gift.
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:Jason English (Host): /I,
too, grew up in the American
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:Evangelical Church like Jacob.
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:I, too, only listened to
Christian music for the better
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:part of my adolescent years.
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:Thank God for Rich Mullins, because
out of a vast sea of mediocrity,
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:bland lyrics, and generic
instrumentation, Rich Mullins stood out.
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:I talk about it with Jacob, that Mullins
most popular song was likely his worst.
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:It's called Awesome God, which shouldn't
be a surprise to too many people, because
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:few people have the guts to peel back
the layers of scripture, to really try to
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:understand the height, the The width, the
depth, and the length of the love of God,
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:like rich did just singing or hearing our
God is an awesome God was good enough for
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:most Christians, but rich was different.
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:And Jacob and I agree on this topic.
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:You'll hear us discuss
this in surprising detail.
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:So you can consider this episode as mine
and Jacob's tribute to Mullins who died
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:nearly 30 years ago in a car accident.
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:Jacob wraps up this episode with another
cover of Mullins, a song called boy,
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:like me, man, like you, which was pure
rich creatively tying to distinctively
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:separate things, the humanity of
Christ and a believer's journey to
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:become more Christlike together.
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:Rich asks of Jesus, if he ever did
things in normal boy would do like
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:play with a dog and lick his nose.
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:And play beneath the spray of a water
hose or make angels in the winter snow.
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:So please listen for that because Jacob
covers it really, really, really well.
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:But this episode is also a lament, a
shared lament between Jacob and myself
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:of time spent at an ultra conservative
Christian church camp in Manitou Springs,
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:Colorado called Summit Ministries.
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:Jacob attended as a high school
student years after I worked there as
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:a counselor while I was in college.
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:although the premise then seemed like
an appropriate use of our time, if
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:you're a young Christian, why wouldn't
you want to take classes from college
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:professors about how to defend your faith?
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:The teachings reeked of conspiracy
and political extremism.
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:I worked there in the summer of 1995, just
months after the Oklahoma city bombing.
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:And I remember one of the speakers
came in and spent two hours.
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:Walking through how the entire thing was
an inside job at the federal government.
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:I remember thinking to myself,
what exactly does this have
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:to do with believing in God?
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:I had no idea I would share
so much in common with Jacob.
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:So forgive us as we unintentionally
use this time for a little
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:bit of sharing in therapy.
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:You can be a fly on a wall while
two grown ass adult men reminisce
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:about a musical hero and at the
same time share mutual regret.
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:About being misled by insecure men,
looking to scare young adults into a faith
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:steeped in judgment, fear, and shame,
rather than in love and forgiveness.
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:We pick up the conversation talking
Jacob's plans for the rest of:
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:Once again, here's Jacob
for a Fort worth, Texas.
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:Let's jump back in.
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:Sometimes you may not be that motivated
to write new stuff, but beyond this
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:three album series, what, what do you
have planned in the, in the future?
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:Has it, has it come into
fruition yet in your
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:Jacob Furr: um, I got this idea in
actually in September, so like I released
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:that record, went to Nashville, played
Americana Fest, and then, with Here
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:Fort Worth, thanks Here Fort Worth.
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:And then on the way back, my mom had
sent me this like Facebook group that
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:she found, because she's really into
like all that genealogy stuff, and
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:she found There was like a county
poor farm in Arkansas that our great
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:great grandfather ran For a while.
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:It's this really interesting story.
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:Um all about like he had like 20 kids and
there were like 30 people that lived on
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:the farm and they just found out where
the farm was at and where like the burial
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:site was for everybody that passed away
on the poor farm because there's no mark.
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:Fascinating story.
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:Like really super cool.
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:Uh, really tied into my family history.
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:So I'm trying to work on that right now.
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:And I'm like trying to like
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:get
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:away from like such.
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:Uh,
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:Diary stories, diary writing and
more into like, okay, can I do this
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:storytelling side of this as well?
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:So that's, that's my challenge
right now is to like get through
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:at least five songs for that.
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:Jason English (Host): Seriously,
that, that sounds fascinating
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:Jacob Furr: It'll be interesting
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:Jason English (Host):
Where, is it in Texas?
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:Jacob Furr: No, it's in Arkansas.
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:Yeah.
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:It's in like North, Eastern Arkansas.
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:Yeah.
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:I forgot what town it's more,
more County, something like that.
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:Yeah.
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:It's way up there, but yeah, it was like,
you know, back in the late:
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:1900s, that's what you did with people
that couldn't support themselves anymore.
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:You just went to the poor farm and
the original idea was that you were
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:supposed to work on the poor farm or
that they would lease you out to other
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:farms as like a day laborer to help
pay for the poor farm where you could
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:live and quickly figured out that
that's like Completely impossible.
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:people with all sorts of stuff where
we would put them in a, in a home, you
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:know, care facility or zone today, like
they were just like, well, I guess we
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:put them on the farm, like, and you
know, they just all kinds of people,
147
:like all kinds of, of, um, Issues and
problems and you know things like that.
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:So it's it's uh, it's
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:Jason English (Host): it's
So, are you, are you gonna,
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:Jacob Furr: hard to write about
151
:Jason English (Host): So, yeah,
are you gonna try to put yourself
152
:in that setting as a character?
153
:Or a series of
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:Jacob Furr: Right now I am the song
that i'm working on right now I've been
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:i've been working on one song since
september because I can't quite figure
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:it out and uh, it's about there's a
There's a story in this news article
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:this lady that would visit the poor
farm to do like charity work out there.
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:She put an article in the newspaper that
said, um, can anybody donate a baby buggy?
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:Because they've had, they had
five children dropped off the,
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:like the week before, four of
them got adopted like immediately.
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:But the fifth one is, uh, is, uh, I don't
know the correct terminology for it.
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:Can't move his legs or arms basically.
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:So there's a child, like a five year
old child that has no family anymore.
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:Mom and dad are gone.
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:Four brothers and sisters are adopted.
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:He's on this farm completely alone.
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:Can't move.
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:Like yeah, like intense intense stuff.
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:So I'm trying to write about that
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:Right.
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:So it's very it's it's a challenge.
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:Yeah, so like I had to do some some
exercises yesterday to be like, okay How
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:am I gonna get in the head of this person
and how am I because I don't I don't Want
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:to be like super modeling about it at all.
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:And I don't mean to talk about this song
too much, but like, 'cause I haven't
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:written it yet, but like Yeah, it's hard.
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:It's really hard.
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:Yeah.
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:I'm trying not to be too, like real
bummer about it and like give this
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:kid some agency somehow in the song.
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:Sure.
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:Um, or as much agency as I can.
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:So yeah, I had to do some like exercises
on that that I haven't done before.
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:'cause usually I've been writing.
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:Just purely from the gut and
just being like, this is how I
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:feel about something, you know,
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:Jason English (Host): So what,
what do you mean by exercises?
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:Like mental exercises?
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:Jacob Furr: uh, yeah, mental exercises,
writing exercises, like the, the
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:mental exercise that I did yesterday
was like, okay, If I'm going to write
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:about this kid and I'm going to like
be this kid, what's it like to just
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:sit outside and not be able to move?
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:And so I tried to like, I went and sat
in my backyard and it was just like,
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:okay, no arms, no legs, no phone.
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:Can't move.
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:Just going to sit here
and listen and watch.
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:And I lasted like two minutes before
I was like, this is so uncomfortable.
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:I have to go inside.
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:So yeah, like sort of stuff like
that where I was like, what, what?
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:What does it feel like what can
you pay attention to what's going
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:on if you don't have the use
of this stuff So, I don't know.
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:Jason English (Host): to?
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:That's wild.
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:Yeah.
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:Jacob Furr: be
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:Jason English (Host): that
reminds me of two things.
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:One, I think Johnny Cash is from Diocese,
Arkansas, where it's like, you know, there
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:was like the the River Riverland and.
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:Poverty, you know, cotton
fields, like very hard life.
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:Right.
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:So now I'm not sure if that's, you
know, proximity to where your family
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:was, but that just reminds me of like
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:Jacob Furr: yeah.
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:No, it's very similar stuff.
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:Like yeah, it's, it's real similar stuff.
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:I don't, I don't know what they
were planting on the farm at all.
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:'cause it was a working farm.
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:Like my great-grandfather and his family
like ran it and it like it, you know,
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:it survived for, it was there for a
hundred years, so it, they did something.
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:Um, but I haven't quite gotten
into the farm side of it yet.
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:Like I'm trying, this kid was my, my main.
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:Intro to it.
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:So I'm trying to knock that out
first and then once that story
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:is sort of told be like, okay
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:do
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:I explore these other parts of this?
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:So I'll probably do something
about cotton or corn or something
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:Jason English (Host): Oh,
that's, that's amazing.
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:Yeah.
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:And the other thing that
reminded me of is one of the.
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:People I interviewed at the beginning of
this podcast is a guy who's in Nashville.
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:Uh, his name is Matthew Killough and he
talks about his family's origin story.
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:What's this?
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:His first album.
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:Jacob Furr: Oh, wow.
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:Jason English (Host): It's,
it's very, it's very similar.
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:It's, it's about, uh, the, the, the
song on there that is the killer song.
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:We talk a lot about it.
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:It's, uh, uh, I think it's
the birds of Crenshaw County.
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:So it was Crenshaw County, Alabama.
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:And he talks about the, How this,
this town has buzzards just up on the
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:water towers on the buildings, just
waiting, waiting to like go and like
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:find prey, you know, anyway, he wraps
this whole thing around it, but he
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:called it his family's origin story.
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:And I just, it
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:Jacob Furr: That's fascinating.
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:I need to listen to something like that
because like, I'm trying to like listen to
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:other albums that have that sort of place
and storytelling where they're together.
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:Like, it's like, okay, I'm going to talk
about all the stories from this one place.
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:And like, how do you, how do
you get creative in that space?
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:Cause I, I haven't done it.
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:And I've never done, I've
never written like that.
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:So I'm trying to like expand my abilities
and expand my storytelling capabilities
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:and be like, what can I do here?
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:You know, how can I tell this story?
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:So
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:Jason English (Host): that's great.
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:Jacob Furr: yeah, that's fascinating.
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:I love that other people do it so well.
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:Yeah.
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:Storytelling,
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:Jason English (Host): think
one of the best of the best.
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:is a guy named Rich Mullins.
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:So, so on your instagram a couple
days ago, you posted as you know,
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:for those of you that don't know who
Rich Mullins is, he was part of the,
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:mainstream Contemporary Christian
music industry, but he was not of the
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:contemporary Christian music industry
back in the eighties and nineties.
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:And he died tragically in a, in
a car accident, I think in:
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:And, um, what was funny about your posts?
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:Cause you, you do a cover,
which I thought was great.
271
:And there's a song called hello,
old friends, really well done.
272
:And you said it in the comments.
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:What's so funny about
rich was his worst song,
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:Jacob Furr: Yeah,
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:Jason English (Host): his worst song ever.
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:Jacob Furr: That he legitimately hated.
277
:Like, I mean, I think he did.
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:Cause he said some stuff about
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:Jason English (Host): Yeah.
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:His worst song ever is this
song called awesome God.
281
:And, uh, it's like his most
popular, but I think, can I,
282
:can I correct the record for,
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:Jacob Furr: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:No, no.
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:Jason English (Host): cause I,
uh, you were probably pretty
287
:young when he was alive.
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:Jacob Furr: yeah.
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:Cause he died when I was like
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:Jason English (Host): You love it, right?
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:Jacob Furr: 11.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Something like that.
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:Yeah.
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:So I had to get into him afterwards.
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:Yeah.
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:Jason English (Host): So I saw
him, I actually saw him a bunch,
299
:uh, cause I grew up in, in, in the
Midwest and Missouri and he would
300
:play a lot of, a lot of church camps.
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:So I'd, I'd, I'd see him quite a bit.
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:And, um, he told a
story about awesome God.
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:He was, I think he wrote it.
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:Driving west on interstate 70
from Indiana, you know, Illinois,
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:Missouri, Kansas, Colorado.
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:And it was like thunderstorming and he
said that he, uh, had his window rolled
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:down and he was kind of like yelling
to God, like, you know, and it wasn't
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:like, Oh, our God's an awesome God, dude.
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:It was like, you know.
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:That the notion of awesomeness where
it's the thunder, the lightning in that.
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:So I think that was the context.
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:Jacob Furr: that
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:Jason English (Host): didn't like it.
314
:Uh, or he, what was it?
315
:His favorite.
316
:But anyway, that was, that was a
317
:Jacob Furr: That's amazing.
318
:I didn't know that about him, like
writing it in that cause I've been
319
:in that space, like where you're
driving through that thunderstorm and
320
:it's just completely overwhelming.
321
:And that's what I've always
loved about richest stuff is.
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:Yeah.
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:Jason English (Host): So how, yeah.
324
:Tell me about your, uh,
obviously you were younger.
325
:Did you grow up in the church and
like the whole, the whole notion of,
326
:you know, Christian music, which I, I
definitely want to talk to you about.
327
:Jacob Furr: Yeah, definitely
grew up in the church.
328
:Um, definitely grew up
with only Christian music.
329
:Um, my uncle was the one that
introduced me to Rich Mullins.
330
:'cause I don't think, I'm trying
to remember, I was a teenager.
331
:He, my, I have an Uncle Ray that
lives on the East coast and he, uh.
332
:He taught me how to play a
12 bar blues and then also
333
:introduced me to, um, all right.
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:Okay.
335
:Uh huh.
336
:Amen.
337
:And it was like, okay, this is like, this
is the coolest song and this is the blues.
338
:And I was like, okay, cool.
339
:And so from there, like, yeah, it took
off into my love for Rich Mullins.
340
:Um, but Rich was like, I was
thinking about this this weekend.
341
:Cause we kind of talked about it
after I posted on Instagram, like, um,
342
:because
343
:cause I haven't really engaged
with his stuff in a while.
344
:It's always been really important to me.
345
:Like when I'm like on a road trip
by myself, I listen to it by myself,
346
:but like, just thinking about it.
347
:again this weekend because I
posted that video just sort of
348
:As a goof because I have a guitar
that like was in a new tuning.
349
:I was like, oh I can play that song
here um And but like so many people were
350
:responding to it like, oh, yeah, he meant
so much to me And I was like, man, what
351
:does rich still mean to me nowadays?
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:Like what does this music still?
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:um
354
:to me?
355
:speak to me about um,
and yeah, he was just a
356
:I don't know.
357
:He was like the, the dude that
like sensitive people like
358
:myself could connect to in the
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:Jason English (Host): Right.
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:Jacob Furr: especially, um, after the
fact, cause he wasn't cool when I was
361
:a teenager, like at that point in like
the, you know, when would be that?
362
:That would be the like 1999.
363
:Rich Mullins was not cool.
364
:2000, 2000, 2001 or like it
was not, yeah, it was all third
365
:Jason English (Host): It Newsboys
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:Jacob Furr: yes.
367
:Newsboys and third date, but
like Rich was not cool at all.
368
:Um, and to say that anything is cool
in that Christian music scene is.
369
:Hilarious to begin with, but just
in the context of church kids,
370
:like, and what's cool with church
371
:Jason English (Host): so cool.
372
:Jacob Furr: wasn't even cool for church
kids, but he was like the thing that
373
:like really sensitive dudes like myself
that wanted to play guitar and wanted to
374
:write songs, um, and, and had the sort
of questions that he had about things.
375
:He was really our connecting point.
376
:Cause I think all those
other people were so
377
:you know, there's
378
:industry brained.
379
:Jason English (Host): oh my gosh
380
:Jacob Furr: That it was, you
know, there's no, there was no
381
:room for questioning any of it.
382
:You know,
383
:Jason English (Host): Totally.
384
:I, I've said, I think I've said
this before, but my take on, even
385
:at the time, even though I grew up
in the church, I'd listened to a
386
:lot of Christian music growing up.
387
:I always got the sense that apart from
him, everybody else was kind of trying to
388
:just to make a buck off Jesus, you know?
389
:I think
390
:Jacob Furr: that's absolutely true because
now that I've been playing music for a
391
:long time and like have met people in
Nashville that are like higher up the
392
:chain, like, I've been told stories
about, and I was like, that guy really?
393
:And they're like, yeah,
394
:Jason English (Host): Yeah.
395
:Jacob Furr: Oh, okay.
396
:Yeah, this totally was just an act
that people were putting on, but
397
:it's a very Nashville thing to like,
cause that's a whole thing up there.
398
:Is that like gospel Christian music
thing up in Nashville that like is
399
:very, um, Very much a product that
is sold and so people like Rich
400
:um,
401
:Mark Heard Buddy Miller and Julie Miller
like that whole crowd I didn't discover
402
:them until way later like even like I'm
talking like recently didn't know that
403
:they were all connected in Nashville by
this like sort of underground Christian
404
:songwriting thing or like Bruce Cockburn
405
:Jason English (Host): Cockburn, yep.
406
:Jacob Furr: like All, like all
of them were in this Christian
407
:underground that was just very not,
um, not cool to listen to back then.
408
:And, but like Rich was like my dude.
409
:Jason English (Host): Well, you mentioned
Grace Pettis, her dad Pierce Pettis
410
:not cool
411
:Jacob Furr: Yeah, that's her dad.
412
:Jason English (Host): to I reached out
to without even knowing the daughter
413
:but she's going to be at this festival,
i want to talk to talk to her that
414
:was one of my favorite episodes too
415
:.
Jacob Furr: message
416
:Jason English (Host): you
417
:know, homosexuals in the church,
which is the whole thing.
418
:But I was like, I had no idea
you were Pierce's daughter.
419
:Isn't that
420
:Jacob Furr: I didn't know that either.
421
:That's fascinating.
422
:Yeah.
423
:So yeah, that whole Christian scene,
um, from music then it's, yeah,
424
:it's, it continues to be influential.
425
:Um, and yeah, a lot of Rich's stuff.
426
:I just wanted to get this off my
427
:Jason English (Host): Yeah.
428
:Yeah.
429
:Jacob Furr: yeah, that awesome God stuff.
430
:And like a lot of his.
431
:stuff was so Jesus centered and that
was such an important part of his life,
432
:but I connected with so much of his,
the songs that were not necessarily,
433
:um, so Christian on his albums.
434
:Um, and, um, I don't know that he
would like be into that or not because
435
:he was like really Really into Jesus
and really into the Christian Sort of
436
:mindset and like questioning that and
I was too when I was a kid But like
437
:as I've gotten older I've gotten more
into like like that old friend like
438
:hello old friends like I love that song
There's so many good parts in there.
439
:Um, or like you were talking about
what Susan said or Like even songs
440
:like Jacob and two women that's
such a weird song when you're a
441
:teenager listening to Rich Mullins
Like what is this guy talking about?
442
:And then the older you
get you get more into it.
443
:You're like, oh, this is
really This is super cool
444
:Jason English (Host): Well, I think, uh,
for me, you know, it's one thing to, to
445
:sing Jesus' Lord over and over again to.
446
:You know, there's not a lot of
thoughtfulness in that, but for him,
447
:like the song that I always come back
to, it's called, if I stand, he doesn't
448
:say the word Jesus once, but it's,
you know, there's more than rises in
449
:the morning than the sun where that
shines in the night than just the moon.
450
:There's more than just this fire here.
451
:That keeps me warm
452
:Jacob Furr: goose, I'm
literally getting goose
453
:Jason English (Host): in a shelter
that is larger than this room.
454
:You know, it's like that to me that
that paints the picture of, you know, if
455
:you believe in a God, that's a creator.
456
:You can't get any better and he but he
didn't say, you know, I love Jesus, you
457
:know, but it so I love that because he
He he's interesting because you know in
458
:the grace Pettis episode, you know, I
included a clip of his about homophobia
459
:Jacob Furr: uh,
460
:Jason English (Host): because
he always was counterculture to
461
:Jacob Furr: like,
462
:Jason English (Host): the
American Evangelicalism, And
463
:I'll never forget this moment.
464
:So I, I worked at a, uh, now I'm
kind of embarrassed to admit, but
465
:a very, very conservative Christian
camp in Colorado when I was in
466
:Jacob Furr: which one?
467
:Was it summit?
468
:Yeah, it was summit.
469
:Yeah, it was summit, Jason.
470
:I knew.
471
:Yeah, buddy.
472
:Yeah, buddy.
473
:Jason English (Host): For one summer.
474
:And
475
:Jacob Furr: Oh, I attended twice.
476
:I did.
477
:I did cause I was homeschooled.
478
:I did a course at home, like not at home.
479
:We had like a co op that we would
get together and I Aced that class.
480
:I was so good at worldview.
481
:Jason English (Host): The world view.
482
:David Noble.
483
:Jacob Furr: noble.
484
:Jason English (Host): I may not.
485
:Jacob Furr: Oh man.
486
:We're going to upset some people now.
487
:Here we go.
488
:Jason English (Host): include
this because it's so embarrassing.
489
:Jacob Furr: No, dude.
490
:I'll tell you what because legitimately
if you have you ever like searched like
491
:was anybody else in summit It's real hard
to find anybody because nobody admits
492
:Jason English (Host): Oh,
493
:Jacob Furr: Nobody wants to talk about it.
494
:Like you can get on reddit I've done
I've tried so hard to find so many
495
:community to be like can any of us?
496
:Please talk about what we were
taught there and like how we had
497
:to like Deconstruct from that
later on like oh, it's intense and
498
:it's because nobody wants to talk
499
:Jason English (Host): No,
nobody wants to talk about it.
500
:They, yeah, it's, uh,
501
:Jacob Furr: Anyway, sorry.
502
:I
503
:Jason English (Host): well, no, I,
504
:Jacob Furr: you were telling
a story about teaching there
505
:and I just got you off track
506
:Jason English (Host): well, no,
like I was, I was a counselor
507
:there in college, right.
508
:For this, for a summer.
509
:And, um, so, Listen, you know, I, I grew
up in the church and, uh, I valued the
510
:fact that, you know, you believe in the
Bible, you want to believe that, um,
511
:scriptures, God,
512
:you know, what, as they say,
all scriptures, God breathes,
513
:you know, and can be used for
teaching and, and all that.
514
:And, you know, as you get older,
as you travel the world, you know,
515
:you start to, to wonder, right.
516
:But like, you know, at the time when
I was there, I wanted to arm myself
517
:with evidence of, you know, You know,
the gospels and evidence of, of,
518
:of Jesus and evidence of the Bible.
519
:But it just looking back, it was, it
was actually like, so conspiratorial,
520
:even before I knew what that was.
521
:Jacob Furr: I was going to
say, it was very fear based.
522
:Very fear based.
523
:And the thing that The thing that
Rich cut through with for me was like
524
:I did all the things out of fear and
But what I loved about Rich was like
525
:none of what he was talking about was
fear based like it was all this like
526
:it was beauty based and love based and
Poetry bet like it was just poetry.
527
:It wasn't okay.
528
:I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know sing off the
lee strobel like, you know, like Nobody
529
:knows who that is except you and me.
530
:Oh my god
531
:you know, yeah.
532
:He was into
533
:Oh man anyways, but you because there
were people that had songs back then that
534
:were like very much into that and like
the closest he ever got to that was uh,
535
:Jason English (Host): The
536
:Jacob Furr: uh on
ragamuffin, um The creed,
537
:Jason English (Host): Oh, creed.
538
:Yeah.
539
:Yeah.
540
:Jacob Furr: like singing the
creed, but for an evangelical kid.
541
:Who'd never heard the creed
542
:Jason English (Host): was Catholic.
543
:Jacob Furr: up in Southern Baptist
church, hearing that creed and being
544
:like, yeah, I believe all these things.
545
:And then starting to dive into the
history of it and be like, Oh, there's a
546
:whole other world of Christianity here.
547
:And a whole other way of thinking
about the world that doesn't
548
:involve David Nobles and these
like fear mongering people.
549
:And yeah, I, like I said, like Rich
was like the dude for sensitive
550
:question askers that were allowed that.
551
:If you weren't allowed to ask it in
Sunday school, you could at least go
552
:listen to Rich Mullins on the drive
home and like, feel okay with not.
553
:understanding
554
:Understanding anything and like listening
to songs about him like questioning
555
:the father's love or like if he's being
loved by God or whatever and be like,
556
:yeah, that's how I feel right now.
557
:I don't feel sure, you
know, I don't, I, yeah,
558
:Jason English (Host): It's,
it's not all peaches and cream.
559
:Jacob Furr: no, it's not.
560
:And it's not all certain.
561
:Like, it's not certain in any way.
562
:And I think that's especially like
when I got his book that arrow pointing
563
:to heaven and like realize like, How
questioning he got later on and like
564
:was diving deeper and deeper and
deeper into the like older traditions.
565
:I was like, Oh man, this guy's
definitely forging the path
566
:that I feel spiritually as well.
567
:Like I want to keep going
backwards into this thing and like,
568
:like
569
:not accepting this like sort of
modern American version of this,
570
:you know, that I've been told is
like the ultimate version, you know,
571
:Jason English (Host): well
to tie the bow so, my Rich
572
:Mullins story related to Summit
573
:Jacob Furr: oh man.
574
:Yeah.
575
:I can't wait.
576
:Jason English (Host): So he and
Beaker his, uh, you know, his
577
:collaborator and, and music partner,
578
:It was right after the
brother's keeper album was:
579
:They were, they were going around
and they played at a, you know, a
580
:Christian bookstore in Colorado Springs.
581
:You can't have a more Christian
bookstore than in Colorado Springs.
582
:Let me just tell
583
:Jacob Furr: Yeah, no kidding.
584
:Jason English (Host): So anyway, so,
you know, we go, I go and see him and
585
:you know, he's got his lap dulcimer,
the hammer dulcimer, the guitar.
586
:All the things really, really cool stuff.
587
:And, um, afterwards he's hanging out and,
I forgot how it came up, but he's like,
588
:are you, you know, do you live here?
589
:What are you doing?
590
:I'm like, well, you know,
I was, I was so proud.
591
:I was like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm a
counselor at this really cool,
592
:Christian camp called summit ministries.
593
:And like, you know, we're, we're
teaching college kids and high school
594
:kids, like how to defend their faith
and you know, why the Bible is true and
595
:you know, all the lines and all he said
to me, he just looked at me and he's
596
:like, That sounds like brainwashing.
597
:Jacob Furr: at me.
598
:He's like,
599
:Jason English (Host):
And I was like, I was
600
:Jacob Furr: like brainwashing.
601
:Jason English (Host): in my
tracks and I was like, he's, he's
602
:Jacob Furr: It just went straight to
it man just straight that's that's it.
603
:Oh How did he do it?
604
:That's because he yeah, and you know, he's
sorry I don't know where like your podcast
605
:is like real short You're like you're
like one person that I got that like is
606
:like on the same side of this with me
607
:Um, anyway, so yeah, that's fascinating.
608
:I
609
:Jason English (Host): Here's the thing
about what I'm, you know, obviously
610
:him dying in the accident was horrible.
611
:Um, and actually that actually affected
my faith probably more than anything.
612
:Cause I was just like, really, you're
going to like this guy's going to go.
613
:the guy, you know, like really,
he's the one that actually
614
:is the, the, the best example
615
:Jacob Furr: uh, buddy, that's been my
entire journey of this has been like,
616
:that's the person that goes, this is
the brightest person I've ever met.
617
:And that literally just happened today.
618
:Like I had a friend of mine passed
away today and I was just like, that's
619
:the dude, like of all the people
doing all the awful things in the
620
:world, that's the dude that, Okay.
621
:You know, it's, this is all random
622
:Jason English (Host): No, that's fine.
623
:Yeah.
624
:Well, but you know, I've thought a
lot about it like the last 25 years.
625
:I so would have wanted rich to
um, Get outside of Nashville.
626
:I mean, he would live in New
Mexico, but like, do what you
627
:do, like independent art, band
camp, you know, do his own thing.
628
:Cause you know how much
cool stuff would be,
629
:Jacob Furr: I think he would have, I mean,
like, look at the way that like, um, like
630
:I said earlier, The Millers, like that
whole thing, like they were way into it.
631
:And then.
632
:All of a sudden they're in a band with
Robert Plant and Darryl Scott and like
633
:doing this like sort of Americana thing
that they basically invented with in
634
:Emmylou Harris they're like an integral
part of this thing and What people don't
635
:talk about in the Americana scene is like
how much of that is influenced by this
636
:like gospel music and this like early
90s CCM stuff that they were writing with
637
:Mark Heard and Rich Mullins and like it's
it's in there and Julie songs like that
638
:There's so much that's like still infused
and all of that stuff So yeah I think
639
:Rich would be a fascinating contributor
to that these days like because he was
640
:just on a whole different level to begin
with and Not to say that Buddy and Julie
641
:aren't good like they're amazing, but
not that that not that specific way You
642
:know that truth telling way that he was
643
:Yeah, he was next level for sure.
644
:So like, um, at this point,
645
:In your career, what are
you most curious about?
646
:written about for like a decade.
647
:So I'm kind of like
tired of writing words.
648
:So I'm just like learning about a lot of
like traditional music and like trying
649
:to learn like folk tunes and Irish stuff
and like, you know, like, I mean, 10
650
:minute long ballads from like England,
like the child ballads, like just like.
651
:just.
652
:Nerding out really hard and just
enjoying these things that are sort
653
:of outside the outside the norm.
654
:Jason English (Host): What's
your timeline for the poor farm,
655
:Jacob Furr: got and I've got a folk album
that I'm gonna try to put out this year
656
:That's like some older songs of mine that
are on the on the previous three records
657
:But like they either got covered up with
like production or so they're just like
658
:straight like Acoustic guitar and vocal.
659
:And then there's four like
traditional child ballads on
660
:the end of that album too.
661
:So I'm going to put that out first,
maybe this year and to buy myself some
662
:time to finish this poor farm album.
663
:Yeah.
664
:Cause it's being a pain.
665
:It's not, it's not fun.
666
:Jason English (Host): not fun.
667
:It's a big stretch.
668
:I'm really, really swinging for it
669
:Jacob Furr: a big stretch.
670
:Yeah, and I'm, I'm really, I'm really
swinging for it and trying to be
671
:like, can I do this other thing?
672
:Um, and if not, I'll just go
back to writing diary songs.
673
:We'll see what happens.
674
:I would love to hang
out with you in Atlanta.
675
:Yeah, I think we played, um, Smith's
old bar there a long time ago.
676
:I've played that place a couple of times.
677
:That's fun.
678
:Like just classic Atlanta place.
679
:Um, I think that's the only
place I've ever played in
680
:Atlanta, but that's a long drive.
681
:I got to get out there though.
682
:I got to make it happen.
683
:Yeah.
684
:Jason English (Host): we could, we
could do a house show with my friends.
685
:Jacob Furr: you wanna do that?
686
:Jason English (Host): it'd be good.
687
:Yeah.
688
:So the first episode I did the, uh,
it was Bradley Cole Smith and this guy
689
:named Nelson Nolan, amazing musicians.
690
:Nelson's brother, uh,
opened Smithsville bar.
691
:And they talk a lot about that.
692
:They talk a lot about it in the, in the
693
:Jacob Furr: That's a cool place.
694
:It was fun to play there.
695
:Yeah, it was a, it was a trip, but,
uh, yeah, it's a long way to go,
696
:Jason English (Host): Well,
you're always welcome.
697
:Jacob Furr: Well, thanks.
698
:Jason English (Host): Um, well,
thanks for your time, Jacob.
699
:Can you play some
700
:Jacob Furr: Yeah, let's do
701
:Jason English (Host): All right, cool.
702
:Thanks so much for joining us for
another episode of Curious Goldfish.
703
:Please follow and subscribe to
the podcast and on social media.
704
:Also tell your music loving
friends about us too.
705
:Until next time, stay curious.
