We Fucked Up...and trusted our champion implicitly | Episode 10 - We F*cked Up So You Don't Have To

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We Fucked Up...and trusted our champion implicitly | Episode 10

Episode 10 • 3rd December 2024 • We F*cked Up So You Don't Have To • Stijn Smet & Melanie Faye

[Stino]

What are you really trying to say? Lay it out on the table.

[Jasmine]

Okay, so tiptoeing around the fact, do I actually give a shit if I upset them? Or do I have a goal that I'm trying to achieve? When you're in a relationship with a champion, and you're like, I want to respect this boundary with them and keep them happy.

But if I don't really have a super strong relationship with them, or like, they keep blowing me off, then I'm gonna go past you because it doesn't really matter. I don't care.

[Voiceover]

Welcome to another exciting episode of We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To. Get ready to dive into the wild world of customer success with your hosts, Stino and Melanie. Join them as they peel back the curtain on their own mishaps and triumphs, sharing candid insights and practical advice along the way.

Stino, a charismatic head of customer success, brings his unfiltered wisdom to the table, while Melanie, the seasoned customer success manager, offers invaluable career insights. Together, they'll laugh, learn, and navigate the twists and turns of the customer success journey. So buckle up and let's dive in.

[Stino]

Hi, everyone, and welcome back at a new episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To show. Yay! As promised, we are doing a menage a trois.

We're like, we're opening up the relationship, and we couldn't be more excited to invite a senior enterprise customer success manager. She is a speaker. She has been named two times the top 100 customer success strategist.

She is a she has creative leader, but most of all, she has found the fountain of youth. If you see her, she is glowing. She is beaming.

She has a skincare routine that everyone is jealous of. I'm talking about no one other than Jasmine Reynolds. Welcome to the We Fucked Up podcast.

[Jasmine]

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

[Stino]

Yeah, we're super excited that you are like the first one in our poly relationship.

[Melanie]

Welcome, Jasmine. We're so excited to have you here, our very first guest on We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To. And we're excited to dig into our topic today.

[Jasmine]

Yes, I am happy to introduce my lovely fuck up. Actually, my fuck up is around your champion getting in your way. I think we think, you know, our champion is kind of our golden ticket to get in the door and have the right conversations.

And they're supposed to be this helpful resource. And sometimes they're just not.

[Stino]

No, it's like they turn their pom poms that they carry around them and being your champion and your cheerleader on the floor and they grow these little devil horns. I mean, like, I'm going to get in your way. So note, enlighten us about a situation where the devil came out of one of your champions.

[Jasmine]

Yes. So at a previous job, I had a champion. And I mean, this relationship was one of those relationships where it's like, we're BFFs.

The first 15 minutes of every single session is like, how's life? How's your kids? How's your family and all the things and it's great.

And you're like, wow, okay, I've really established this really awesome relationship with them. And then when it comes time to kind of get past them, meaning like either up the food chain, or maybe get you to the direct decision maker, like they are a part of the decision making, which is great, right? That's why you're there, you're a champion.

But when it comes to getting past them, they become a roadblock. I think part of this reason is because they want the credit and the glory for the success or growth of the partnership, which is understandable. But you're more of a handicap than you're being helpful when you're not wanting to pull in your other resources to the conversation and to the partnership.

[Melanie]

So you feel like they wanted to be the exclusive user and didn't? Oh, interesting. Okay.

I don't know if I've run into that before. That's a very interesting. So they're like fully gatekeeping, gatekeeping the software.

[Voiceover]

Like basically they're a diva.

[Jasmine]

Yeah, very much. Very much the diva. I'll step back.

So I wouldn't say that they're gatekeeping the software, but they are gatekeeping the conversations. For example, when it came time for renewal, and it was like, okay, you know, we have expansion coming up, we have growth opportunity here. She's telling me all the right things.

Yes, there is growth, there is all these things that you definitely want to hear from your camp champion. But she was taking it back to her leader to get the go ahead. And we weren't allowed to have a conversation with that leader.

Like it was just like, nope, you work with me.

[Stino]

That is, would you say that there were like signs on the wall? You mentioned there was this like BFF relationship where you're like, okay, I can tell her and ask her anything. Because I've been in the position myself, but I want to hear your take on it.

Were there signs on the wall that maybe I needed to spot this guy sooner?

[Jasmine]

Yes, there were absolutely signs. There were red flags thrown all over the place. And you're like, I'm gonna ignore that.

I'm gonna ignore that. I'm gonna ignore that. And then you're like, oh, shit.

That's what that red flag was. So my red flags, looking back at the relationship was absolutely whenever I wanted to talk about the success of the account, it was like, okay, that's great. Can you send that to me so I can send it to Oh, interesting.

Right? Rather than, oh, Jasmine, go ahead and send that to me and A, B and C. It was like, Oh, give me that information.

And I will distribute it how I see fit.

[Stino]

Yeah. Which I because for me in the situations that I've been in there as well, where the customer is, you need to or the champion is, you need to send it up me. Like I fucked up in the communication plan wise, like I've learned along the way that if you're in your kickoff, that the decision maker isn't maybe always there, but you ask them in a follow up email, hey, how do you like to get communicated with?

And I know that we talked about it in previous episodes as well. But was that the origin of that fuck up for you? Or was there literally like that blind faith that you had in your champion?

[Jasmine]

I think it was definitely a blind faith in my champion because of how strong that relationship was. I'm like, she's advocating for us. I have no doubt in my mind that even though she's this rope, right?

I'm like, she's got us. So we're good. Now everybody's on the same page.

And she's just, you know, bringing everybody else up to speed. Like we're good. And that was not the case.

And that was my true fuck up is like just blindly trusting without really pushing to develop these other relationships as well.

[Melanie]

And did you have any access to those other stakeholders? Or were they just you didn't know who they are, how to get to them?

[Jasmine]

So I know I knew who they were. I had had very limited access to them. There were a couple of instances where they were a part of the conversation, which also led me to believe, okay, she actually is doing what she said, and going back to them and having these important conversations.

I think that as I evaluate it, I think I should have been much more intentional, even if I don't always have access to them.

[Stino]

Mm hmm.

[Jasmine]

What are two situations where I get access to them in a year? Is it quarterly, we're doing an EBR with them, and that person is included every single time non negotiable? Or is it twice a year, like being intentional about requesting them to be a part of the conversation and telling my contact why that's important and building that case?

[Stino]

Yeah, that's now we have trust issues all over the place. If we were dating, we have trust issues. Now we need to have trust issues with our champions as well.

We're doomed. We're doomed. We're doomed.

We have like, fuck boys and girls everywhere. This is insane. Like, they exist also in our professional life.

Melanie, do you have any trust issues with your champions?

[Melanie]

I do. I think this is a very common scenario, especially in newer accounts that I've onboarded, where someone like the champions really excited to dig in and get started. And like you said, Jasmine, they want to take credit for implementing and the success of the software.

And I feel like this happens on a very regular basis. And I actually have a, I have a customer right now that she actually instructed me, please do not contact anyone else on the team. Like you are talking to me.

That's it. That was an instruction pretty much right off the bat when we first met, and she's implemented software before. So she knows kind of the game.

I think she knows like what what comes with with implementation and onboarding. And I have not been able to get these people on a call. It's her.

She responds back to emails when she feels like it. We have calls booked out for the future, just recurring calls. She doesn't show up for them.

And then I get this email because I noticed their usage is very low. It's not where it should be. And so then I just got this email from her saying, we're kind of reassessing what we're doing here.

And the other person who's using the software, the person who's going to be the main user doesn't like it. She's having issues with it. And she feels like she does doesn't need it.

And so they're kind of reassessing whether or not they even need the software. And she was the one who was pushing for it. There was someone else on the team who's used it before he loved it.

And so she's kind of like, in the way of me getting to this other person to offer training or find out what exactly is the blocker. And so you kind of like when it's spelled out right, do not get in touch with these people. Okay, what do I do?

Do I just send them an email? How do I proceed? And so I've done that.

I have actually reached out to these other individuals on the team just to see if we could jump on a call and get some answers, which hasn't led to anything. They haven't responded.

[Stino]

So but that's, that's indeed the fine line, though. Yeah, I think that is the thing where they're not getting any value, but they said, I'm the only person to contact, what are we going to do? And I think indeed, the best way is to reach out to other people within the same company, other users and tailor your approach.

The first thing I always do is really reach out to the champion and be like, hey, this is not going to work. That's what I've learned, by far. And it takes both and a lot of confidence to do so.

And this is for anyone listening, this is not something that happens overnight. 100% not like you will keep trying and fighting to get someone on the call or get any kind of movement. But at one point, you need to really step up for yourself and be like, okay, I work for the company, we're not BFFs.

Again, I am from the point of view that you need to have a good and healthy relationship with your customers. And for me, that is that same relationship that Jasmine has for their customers, like kikiing, like having that small talk. I think Melanie, you have the same, that is how I like to do customer success, but it shouldn't go into the way.

So at the end of the day, we're still working on a company, we're not like, we can kiki it up, we can go for drinks, but then it's just in a friendly manner, it's not a work environment. But at the end of the day, I'm getting paid for a company that you purchase the tool from. And if you don't get value, you will get churned, my churn numbers will go up, and I maybe lose my job.

Short-sighted, of course, but that is a chain of reaction that you need to keep up. Like really a top of mind, because in the past, I was exactly the same like, Oh, I get it. I trust you, like, actually for you as well.

But yeah, that is not that.

[Melanie]

Yeah, it's especially a tough one. You don't want to break trust with this champion. Like they're asking you not to do something and you're kind of like, okay, when do I step in and do it?

Because at the end of the day, my job is to help you be successful with the software or help the end user to be successful with the software. And I think that's kind of where there's a balance, right? How far do I take this?

Who do I get in touch with next? And how do we fix it? So yeah, I work with SMB clients.

And I think it's very common in these smaller firms where resources are kind of lean, you know, the teams are a little bit smaller. And so there is someone who does control that process.

[Jasmine]

Yeah, I think with that relationship, you know, I had that account for six years. And once I realized what that dynamic really was, and that she was the roadblock, I kind of had a come to Jesus moment with her and really just said exactly what you said. Listen, you know, we have these goals, we have these initiatives, and we cannot do this without their involvement.

If you really want to see success here, we have to figure out what conversations they will be a part of not if not when will be. And I said, it doesn't have to be all the time understand that this person is busy and that you are, you know, in their mind, they're protecting their energy and their focus and their calendar. That's all well and good.

But in order for us to actually be successful here in order for her to get the credit that she wants, that's why she's being this roadblock. We have to pull her into the conversation with me and not just you doing it on your own. Yeah, we have to do this together.

[Stino]

So good. That's really good advice that come to Jesus moment is something that we sometimes need to have.

[Melanie]

Yeah.

[Stino]

Preach. What are other ways to fixing it? Because again, I think all of us in this call in this podcast episode have some miles when it comes to doing customer success.

If you will give that advice let's say young Steno, young Melody and young Jasmine, what would that look like? What would the first step be? Because again, we grew confident in the roles that we are right now.

But what are tips and tricks to spot it for let's say people that are in their first year of customer success and so they don't fuck up?

[Jasmine]

Yep. I have something that I will immediately throw in there. So looking back at it, I'm thinking like, okay, what could I have done differently so that I didn't even get to this point during the initial onboarding and the establishment of the relationship?

I feel like it would have been helpful to set that stage very early. I knew who this decision maker was during the entire relationship. I wish that I would have said, okay, I see this person over here and setting that stage of to see success, I recommend that we meet with that person twice a year.

And here's the value that we will drive in that conversation with them so that they know, oh, she's not going to waste her time. She's not going to just check in with this person. No, we are driving value in that conversation twice a year, three times a year, whatever that ends up being.

Also letting my champion know, some reassurance, my job is to make you look good, and I want to make you look good in front of her. So giving her that confidence in me, because to me, it kind of felt like what are you afraid of? What are you afraid that I may or may not say in this conversation with this person?

Like asking that question, what would you want me to say in front of that person? So those two things.

[Stino]

That's a good one. That is really good. Like in the opening, I love that.

Yeah, that's a new insight. That is really what do you expect for me to do for you? So I make you look good.

So that is really... She got it.

[Melanie]

Sometimes when you're getting to know people, it can be kind of awkward to have those conversations too, right? Setting expectations from the very start, I think is so key. And you try to do it, but there are just some people who they're not listening or they have their own agenda.

And I think getting past that and establishing that kind of trust relationship, it may not happen right away, but little by little, I think you can get there just by working on the relationship, working on showing them the value. And then like you said, just making sure that you're on the same team when it comes to talking to these other leaders or decision makers. It's not you against them.

It's you with them. And yeah, showcasing what they've done together on your team.

[Stino]

Yeah. And I really love the fact that you need to ask that question because basically, if you look at it, it's an arranged marriage, right? Like the decision maker brings in the the champion, it gets on top of their day-to-day job.

You are assigned as a CSM by what God knows why, what playbook around Robin, and it ends up in your lab. Like it's basically a blind date in an arranged marriage where you are basically obligated to make each other happy and show the value. But indeed, so in that sense, it's really, I love what you both said.

You need to be working with them, not against them, asking that question to really, like really building up that trust. And I do think a lot of CSMs, which is totally fair and totally on point where you want to be like, I'm super excited. I'm here to drive you value.

But again, and that's also what something that we said, don't forget who is sitting in front of you. Like that person doesn't know you. He only saw the product maybe once and he got a project thrown into their lab.

[Melanie]

Yeah.

[Stino]

God knows why. They have other responsibilities. If you want them to trust you, get that in very early on and ask those questions that Jasmine and Melanie asked, because otherwise, yeah, we all want to have that.

Like how do they call it in English? A bridal treasure that the decision maker pays? How do they call it in English?

Like whenever you get married and the other side of the family pays some kind of money to the other family.

[Melanie]

Oh, like a dowry?

[Stino]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a little translation of Dutch. Like we call it a literal translation would be like a bridal treasure or something like that.

[Melanie]

I don't know if that exists over here, but.

[Stino]

Well, yeah, no, there aren't any arranged marriages in this one. Sometimes I've, with some customers though, I feel I am in one.

[Melanie]

Yeah, yeah. Whether you like it or not.

[Stino]

Well, yeah, that is you need to pay me money to drive you value because bitch, it isn't cutting it. This emotional distress, we're not, we're not friends. We're not.

That is the other side of the spectrum. Also, that is what I want to know as well. What would you do if the champion is a roadblock?

I don't like that champion. This one, there was a scenario where you were like, OK, you are my, we are friends. And I didn't see the red flags.

But what if you're like, oh, my God, I literally I can't with that person's energy, which is, again, completely normal because you don't know those persons up front. Like, how would you how would we handle that if you are sitting in front and already have the feeling of, oh, my God, I need to jump on the call with that person again?

[Melanie]

That's never happened to me. I don't know what you're talking about.

[Stino]

Really? Everything is like the world is pink.

[Melanie]

I'm kidding.

[Stino]

The world is good on the tiny island you are on.

[Jasmine]

Yeah. Yeah. I think in those situations, for me, it is like I'm trying to think realistically about this response because I know what I should say.

But what do you actually do, Jasmine? Do I continue to respect that boundary or do I know, OK, well, it's fine if I reach out to this other person that they're trying to block me from because this is for your good and it's fine. You know?

[Melanie]

Yeah, I think you.

[Stino]

What are you really trying to say? I see lay it out on the table. This is a podcast where you can swear or you can like literally be 100% real.

[Jasmine]

Wait. OK, so tiptoeing around the fact, do I actually give a shit?

[Stino]

There we go.

[Jasmine]

You know, do I actually give a shit if I, you know, upset them or do I have a goal that I'm trying to achieve when you're in a relationship with a champion and you're like, OK, we're good. I'm happy. I want to respect this boundary with them and, you know, make sure that I am honestly tiptoeing around that relationship to keep them happy.

But if I don't really have a super strong relationship with them or like they keep blowing me off, then I'm going to go past you because it doesn't really matter. I don't care.

[Stino]

There you go. But that's a really straight up. Yeah, that is like literally what you want to do.

Again, you work for a business like if you are not giving it to me like I will go straight over your head.

[Jasmine]

Yeah, exactly.

[Stino]

I'm not only you. I know you are not confronted with those kinds of champions. Everything is good on the tiny island.

[Melanie]

But hypothetically speaking, if it were like purely hypothetically, purely hypothetically speaking, I think I have to reframe if I don't necessarily enjoy the relationship. You got to get past it. Look past it.

You're doing a job at the end of the day. You still have a job to do, whether or not like personal feelings are getting in the way. So just kind of reframe it like Jasmine said, go past them, do what you have to do to get to those decision makers or, you know, whatever it is that you're trying to do.

I think overstep if you have to tiptoe around if you have to. But, you know, I think there's a way to approach it so that you can help them understand why you're doing this and then get them on board.

[Stino]

Yeah, 100 percent. No, I really love that. And also the fact what we do at Whale, I'm in a position to do so as well.

So I do know that not every company or like how I segment our customers, and this is also something that I talked with the sales team, is to also look at personality. I've done a post recently about that as well. That's the thing, though.

I vibe very well with champions who love to do small talk, create a personal relationship as well on top of the business relationship. And for me, that's how I love to do customer success. But the other part of my team is like 180 degrees different for me.

It's like pragmatic, isn't really comfortable with doing small talk. And if they do, it's more regarding exports or something like that. Completely fine.

And we started to pair up customers where it felt authentic. And we knew from the sales cycle that they are like, OK, or they are pragmatic or they're like down to do small talk on my business relationship. And that's also the way on how we segment our customers.

For example, I had a customer where we already knew upfront. It's like our top two customers. And normally I'm looking after our key accounts as well.

And our sales guy, our founder said he knew I wasn't going to vibe with them. He just knew. But seeing that we segment before on just like purely the contract value, it was going to go to me.

We didn't vibe at all. He called me all different kinds of names in the book, God knows why. But that is where I was like, OK, this is not going to work.

Even if I want to go over you, let me reassign you another CSM, which I know you will get that personal connection with. And now they're thriving. And the same with like every quarter I say, OK, are there any customers that you want to, that it doesn't work with the champion, which is complete, they're the blocker.

Let me know and we can like reshuffle a little bit. Do you think who is they're going to vibe with? And Thomas, one of my team was like, OK, this one, she is like all into small talk.

Can you try? Because she stopped replying to me because I was more like pragmatic and straight for the kill. I reached out and it was maybe a lower contract value, but we have the best relationship and she's getting everywhere.

And that's the thing, though, people listening in also try to talk to your managers and swoop a little bit in that personal aspect of it in the times of AI, in the times of having our jobs controlled by multiple applications, whether it's a CSP, a CRM, anything else in between of the books. You want to have a CSM sitting in front of you that you vibe with because you are the trusted advisor. You are here to make sure that they get value.

And the trust that Jasmine has talked about is very, very important. Now, you can't establish that trust via AI. You need to do that with the person sitting in front of you.

[Jasmine]

Exactly.

[Stino]

I want to ask you that question. Like you guys have tools as well. You use tools as well.

What is your answer rate to emails that you get from your customer success managers? If you feel it's AI driven and you basically don't have a relationship at all because you don't vibe. Do you respond or do you just archive?

[Jasmine]

No, I don't respond. If it's a generic, clearly not personalized message, I don't feel obligated to respond. Whereas if it is a personal message, I do feel a little obligated to at least acknowledge the conversation, acknowledge the message.

100%. And I think you kind of touched on something that I've talked about before. And it's figuring out what your customer's love language is.

[Stino]

Yes.

[Jasmine]

And when we're thinking about it in that way, in the same way in any other relationship in your life, sometimes we aren't good at speaking a specific love language. I might not be the best gift giver. I'm not pretty dope.

But if I wasn't, I wouldn't be a good match. You know what I mean? So it's figuring out what their love languages are and who on the team thrives in that love language.

[Stino]

Right. Very simple.

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Stino]

I loved this episode. I loved this episode. We came to an end, but there were so many good nuggets.

So let us do a rapid fire of what we're taking away from this episode. Naomi first.

[Melanie]

Me first?

[Stino]

One thing. Yeah, you. I'm taking away from this.

No five things. Because I saw the wheel spinning. She was like, I'm going to round up the entire 30 minutes of this episode as a takeaway.

[Melanie]

Let me give you my five minute wrap up. Okay. My one key takeaway is it's okay to bypass your champion.

If they're gatekeeping, if they're blocking you, it's okay to bypass them. Step in, get what needs to be done done, and then still work on your relationship with them.

[Stino]

Yeah. For me, it will be the love language. I really love the last part, that the love language.

I really think that's a beautiful saying, and I'm really going to take that with me in a day-to-day job. And for you, Jasmine, not to take away because you have explained everything very well. What is one thing that you want listeners to remember?

[Jasmine]

Building the trust. I think that's something we often bypass in the relationships. And when you start to see a lack of trust with your partnership, with your champion, or anyone else, a part of your accounts, you need to figure out how to build that trust.

And I think that leans back into the love language.

[Stino]

This was the best menage a trois that I got. Well, it's the first one I got, by the way. In my personal relationship, I'm very monogamous.

Not going to lie. But no, I love this one. I think, Melanie, we're ready for another.

Are we going to open up even more?

[Melanie]

Yes, let's do it. This first time was great.

[Stino]

We're doing it until someone is so bad that it's just two of us again.

[Jasmine]

You're like, let me rethink this. I don't know.

[Stino]

Let us rethink this entire format. Jasmine, thank you so, so much for being the first.

[Jasmine]

Thank you.

[Stino]

In our We Fucked Up episode, I really loved the vulnerability we straight up answered. So I hope the listeners have something to take away as well. If you want to link up with this beautiful lady, she is available on LinkedIn.

Make sure to follow her, to follow her content. She is sublime. And just ask her where she found Fountain of Youth and any skincare routine that she has.

Anyway, thank you so much, guys. Me and Melanie can't wait for another episode of the We Fucked Up So You Don't Have To.

[Melanie]

See you next time.