Takeaways:

• The importance of music therapy is highlighted as a means to promote emotional healing and communication for those struggling with expressing themselves verbally.
• Melissa shares her personal journey of feeling like a failure despite her achievements, emphasizing the need to normalize discussions around failures in life.
• Brad and Melissa discuss how societal pressures can dictate life paths, encouraging listeners to pursue their passions regardless of traditional expectations.
• The conversation stresses the significance of identifying and utilizing music as a coping mechanism during stressful situations to enhance focus.
• Brad illustrate how music therapy can effectively aid individuals recovering from strokes by helping them regain their speech abilities through musical engagement.
• The episode explores the neuroscience behind music therapy, explaining how music can create new neural pathways in the brain, aiding recovery and emotional expression.

The podcast explores the complex relationship between personal struggles and the healing power of music through an engaging dialogue between Samantha and Melissa. They reflect on their experiences post-Thanksgiving, leading into a discussion about the societal pressures surrounding education and success. Samantha shares a touching anecdote about a young customer who felt embarrassed about her lack of a college degree, which prompts her to delve into her own academic history. This leads to a candid conversation about the perceptions of failure and the importance of redefining success outside conventional measures. The hosts stress that it’s essential to acknowledge personal journeys, including the bumps along the way, as they contribute to growth and resilience. Melissa's expertise in music therapy brings a unique dimension to the discussion, showcasing how music can bridge communication gaps and foster emotional connections. The conversation highlights various therapeutic techniques used in music therapy, including lyric analysis and improvisation, which help individuals articulate their feelings and experiences. By intertwining personal narratives with professional insights, the episode emphasizes the significance of understanding and embracing one’s path, with music serving as a powerful ally in that journey.

So you want to give us a note?

Me?

Oh, yeah, you're the music. Oh, he has. Mute what you got. Stop it.

Okay.

You're the best.

I'm not cutting this.

She's not cutting it.

All right. Give you a note. We're doing a skirt.

Skirt.

Yes, yes.

Good range.

I love it.

This is so fun.

So my skirt was right there.

1, 2, 3.

Skirts. That was so beautiful. Hey, you. You're tuned in to the Skirts up show with Samantha and Melissa.

Join our mission to normalize failure but still uncover the positives at every twist and turn.

Skirts up, but keep your panties. What's up? Skirts up squad. It is Samantha and Melissa. And we are back from Thanksgiving. I hope everyone had a great one.

That's true. That's true. Actually, I'm not a good liar. You guys are back from Thanksgiving. We're about to go to Thanksgiving.

Okay. If we're being honest, I tried so.

Hard to play along with it. I'm like, yeah, yeah, my great Thanksgiving was great.

But okay, that's fair.

Anyway, how's prepping going for you?

I don't do a damn thing.

That's awesome.

Simon does it all.

Yeah. You said he's making the turkey this year and.

Yep. I don't gotta do a thing. Just sit there and look pretty.

Well, that's nice because you're good at that.

Oh, thanks.

So I have a failure.

Let's hear it.

So it's not like a story of a specific fail. It's a feeling of feeling like a failure in life. I had a young girl come in here.

I say young because I did think she was in her 20s, but she came into the shop and she was talking to me and she was super. So just sweet and kind and through talking, one of the first thing.

One of the things I asked her in trying to get to know her was like, oh, well, did you go to school? Because she had mentioned she lived in another city. Like, oh, did you go to school there?

She got really embarrassed and she's like, I didn't go to college. And I was just like, what? First of all, it was. I was like. Because I remember feeling that way.

That's what it brought back is just huge feelings of like, because I went to school. But as we know, I went early homeschool, yada, yada. I'm not going to go through the whole thing.

Didn't know what I want to do, but I wanted to be an art major. Dad did not like that idea. And I really wanted to please him. I did. He Wasn't like putting down the kibosh, saying, you can't major in that.

But it was a lot of, you know, persuading and, like, you really shouldn't, blah, blah, blah. So I ended up changing my major. And because of that, I changed my major so many times, and I went to so many different schools.

I did graduate in a technical school at one point to be a dental lab technician. But one thing that I did in the very end was when I was. After I was married, I was 32. I went back. No, it was before I was married. It was.

Anyway, I went back to school, got my associates, then I started my bachelor's. And at that point I was like, okay, what I'll do is I'll be a teacher again. I was still trying to please my dad.

He wanted me to be a teacher for years, mostly because you could have your summers off with kids and you could be a good stay at home mom.

Okay?

I didn't have kids, but I was going to get married, and so I thought that's what I should do. Shoulds. It's always shoulds, right? So I was actually out in Texas, and I was at the school that our guest that we're about to speak to went to.

I got through all my practicums. I literally had one semester, my very last semester, right before I had to, like, write my final thesis. I was going through a divorce.

I was working 80 hours a week and going to school. I was working partially in town at a barn, and I was also nannying for a family that lived in Oklahoma, in another state.

So every weekend I would drive up there. So there was a lot going on, and I just. I didn't have it in me. Especially once the divorce started. I was like, I just. I can't.

And it was a mostly amicable divorce. Okay. But emotionally, there was a lot going on in my life. So I ended up dropping out in my very last semester before I got my bachelor's.

I still don't have it. And I was talking to this girl, and I kind of told her that, and she's like, wow, thank you so much, because look at you now.

And I was just like, what? I. I'm still don't know who I am or what I'm doing. But she was like, no, you have a. I didn't say that to her.

I was just thinking, she's like, you have a store. You're back in the art field again. Like, look at you. It kind of came back to what you really, really wanted to do.

Aw.

So I thought that was amazing. I've always seen myself as a bit of a failure in that way.

Oh, interesting.

And for someone else. And I hope I helped her. She said I gave her some, you know, confidence and, like, it's okay.

Because what she had done is she had tried to go out to LA and become an actor. She's like, I tried to do the whole actor thing, but unless you want to do, like, really crazy shit or, like, basically sell your soul.

Yeah, just like, it wasn't for me. So I came back and I think that she has. So, like, as soon as I asked her, where'd you go to school?

And she just got so embarrassed, I was like, yeah, that's a society question, I suppose.

But I never asked people where they go to school.

I'm so glad that you don't, because.

I didn't go to school. And so actually a lot of times when people are like. When women are like, oh, I don't feel like I can do anything.

Like, I'm stuck at this job and there's really no up for me. I'm like, why? And they're like, well, I didn't go to school. And I'm like, okay, I've ran a vet clinic. I've ran a pet resort.

I didn't go to school to be a technician, but I sure was a vet tech. Like, you don't have to.

You're right.

You just have to have the confidence to put yourself in the situation and see where it goes.

You're right. Because, I mean, sure, there are there companies that require that. Bachelor's or master's or whatever.

Like, yeah, yeah, you do have to have, like, if you're going to be a surgeon, obviously.

Sure, sure. But you're right. Like, you don't have to. And it's not for everybody.

Like, even my sister, she decided she did go to school and get certified to be the cn. Cna. She now hates her job, she's tired of it, and now she wants to be a mortician.

And so somebody who wanted to do. Really? Yeah.

Now she wants to be a mortician. And so yet again, she found a place that is going to train her and certify her without actual schooling.

So it's like, once you just have an idea of something that you think you want to do, just do it.

Okay.

Like, just try.

I agree with you. I feel like we just have too many people telling us how life should.

Look, and no one's going to hire you if you're not an educated Individual.

Yeah. So I just want to throw out, like, hey, honestly, in the end, for me, it came full circle. I'm not an artist, but I am an artist.

And that this is fabric arts. So it's like, just kind of play with things, Play with what you enjoy.

And it's actually kind of funny that you told this story.

And this is not where I was going to go, but Simon and I were on a date the other day, and I went on this tangent about how I think the school system isn't where it should be. Yes.

And that it's not setting kids up to succeed in life and to know what they're supposed to do, where they're supposed to be, and just how to find themselves.

They're teaching kids to tests instead of teaching the kids.

Yeah, yeah. Because.

Lots of reasons, but. Okay.

And so we're at the restaurant, and I'm going on this tangent. And so Simon stopped our waitress, and he was like, can you sit down with us? Like, I got a question.

I was like, oh, dear God, where are you going with this? And so. So she sits down, and he was like, have you been to school? And she was like, no, I don't.

No, I don't want to go into school until I know what I want to do, and I don't know what I want to do. And so he was like, okay, well, why do you feel like school has to be to find out what you want to do?

And she was like, well, I don't know, but I know I don't want to waste the money to figure out what I want to do. And he was like, myself and my friend went to school, realized that what we were in school for isn't what we wanted, dropped out, and neither.

Neither of us are in the field that we went to school for and didn't go back to school. And we make great money.

Yeah, right.

And so she was like, oh, that's interesting.

That's so crazy that we both had.

That experience this week. Oh, yeah, that is interesting.

How did you feel when you ended the conversation with her and watching their.

My tangent about school ended up turning into a you don't need school to be successful, and blah, blah, blah. I was like, school doesn't teach you how to.

Well, and then I went into my tangent about how Logan just had a project that I had to do when I was in middle school, and I think the project is really fucking backwards because the project is you create a town, you decide where geographically it is, you decide what kind of government they have. You decide what the minimum wage is and how. Like, the prominent jobs and stuff. That doesn't fucking make sense to me. Because if the project was.

Here is a town in this area. This is the minimum wage.

These are their parameters.

These are the jobs, and this is how much living cost, groceries cost. Tell us how you live. Like, and, like, the town is already broken up into, like, divisions, you know, like financial divisions.

Like, you know, oh, the people who make more money live here and stuff. So, like, giving them all the parameters and saying, now live.

And, like, think outside the box. Like, what about the person across town? What about the person who has this. Yeah, I'm with you.

So then you're learning how to think.

About budgeting, critical thinking. Yeah. Not just, like, it.

Making up imaginary stuff like that doesn't mean sense to me.

Right.

Yeah, of course.

My town's amazing. Everyone makes $15 an hour, minimum wage, and everybody's, like, so happy on the weekends and playing in the park.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

So.

But yeah, I don't even think I need to go into a field.

I think that's. Yeah. Thank you. Okay.

Yeah, I like it. So let's get into the guests that we have with us today.

That's right. Let's do this.

Welcome.

Thank you. So.

Okay, let me just kind of introduce Brad.

Yeah.

We have been friends for a long time.

Yeah, right.

I remember you used to sit down and play the guitar for us in the living room when we. When I lived back in Texas. You were in a band at one point. Now you've actually gone to school and graduated as a musical therapist.

Can you tell us a little bit about your history, where you came from, what you got? You kind of, like, into that.

Yeah, sure. All right. So my name's Brad. I was born in Seattle. That's where we started. So I'm from the grunge city. This will come in. Play later.

Okay.

My parents were missionary, so when I was four, we moved to Austria, and we just kind of traveled around the country every few years, and we'd start new churches, communities and do some outreach work and stuff like that. And my mom was always the. I guess, the music minister for all of the work that we did. So we. I was always kind of musically influenced. My.

My mom and her brothers actually had a band or a group growing up. When they were kids, they were called Three Hits and a Miss.

That's adorable.

Yeah. She had three brothers, and it hurt.

Three brothers. Okay. Got.

Okay.

That's adorable.

That is so fun. Now just a second. When you say that your parents were missionaries, did you guys. Were you guys part of the same type of church? No. Okay.

No, we were Baptist missionaries. We worked for a separate organization called the Foreign Mission Board, so.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

I didn't know that you guys, like, actually went around and started churches in new cities. So you, like, not just lived in Austria, but you moved a lot in Austria itself.

Like, was it hard to find roots when you were over there, or did you feel pretty.

It was. Yeah, because it was usually about three to four years.

We would move somebody somewhere else, and it just, you know, mentally speaking, from a timeline, like, I was four when we went there. So, like, you know, that's big pivotal point in your. Your, you know, childhood. And when we came back, I was 16, so I was rough.

Moving around, leaving friends, getting new friends. It was a constant transition. So it was a little bit difficult and kind of followed me into to adulthood.

Like, I had to have this habit of moving around, starting over, you know.

I did, too.

Yeah, same. Let's look at this little trio.

I know.

So three hits and a miss.

Three hits and a miss. So, yeah, I grew up kind of musically.

Did she play an instrument?

Yeah, she plays the piano. And that's what my. Yeah, she started me off with as a kid. I didn't like it. I still don't like it.

So is your mom the one who got you into instruments?

She wanted me to get into the piano. She. I'm not exactly sure how this one happened, but I also played violin when I was a kid, and I would.

Ended up going to a music school for about a year. Yeah, it wasn't a very good fit. And like, we were in Austria, we had a reputation, so.

Okay.

First off, when we got there, we were the missionaries. They were Baptist missionaries, and it's predominantly Catholic over there, so they weren't quite fond of us being there.

So, you know, we got a little. A little bullied here and there. Nothing like, too bad, but it was kind of. You could kind of tell they were like me.

But, you know, over there, their disciplinary actions are in school are far different than they are here in America. So we got disciplined one day for doing something stupid, I'm sure. And my mom came into this meeting with a teacher, and it turned into a fight.

Like, this is probably the first time and the last time I ever heard my mom yell at somebody, and she got really mad. Wow. And so then that reputation also followed us. So it was just like this double whammy.

And she's not even like an angry person.

Yeah, she's the sweetest person you'll ever meet.

And, like, you know, we would get into fights as a teenager, and, like, I'd run away and she'd be in her car and somehow find me, and she's like, I just got donuts. You want some donuts? I'm like, yeah, I do.

You know, but they're like. There's this angry Baptist missionary.

Yeah, that was my dad.

She'll chase you down for donuts.

That's right. You will have sweets. But, yeah, so it was really sweet.

No pun intended.

It was a very interesting upbringing. So. But, yeah, I quit the violin. I still. I'll dabble with it every once in a while here and then, but.

So, what was school like?

School was rough. I. Okay, so this is. I, in general, struggled through school a lot. I later had an ADHD diagnosis at 16.

So growing up, I had a lot of tutors, you know, just a lot of people trying to help me to get through it. And I did. Barely.

Yeah.

And that was over in Austria, also here.

Yeah. Yeah, a little bit of both. Things got better when I got my ADHD diagnosis. When I was. I was probably about 13 when I discovered the guitar.

We always had some kind of instruments laying around the house. So I picked it up, and I remember the first song I ever played. I have.

I found out I have this uncanny, like, talent, I guess you could say, to just listen to something and be able to play it back. And it's like, oh. So that's how I taught myself how to play the guitar. I'd put on the radio and be like, ooh, that sounds cool. So I just.

I would start matching it, you know, note for note, figure out the chords, and so I taught myself. But the first song I taught myself how to play was To Be with you by Mr. Big. You know that one?

What?

No. Do you have to sing it now.

To be with something like that? Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

It's old school, too.

Remember that? Big in the 90s.

Yeah. Yeah. So that was my first song. And, like, after that, I was hooked. So.

Okay.

That was kind of my first introduction to other music. We listened to a lot of church music and, like, Barbra Streisand, Sandy Patty, things like that.

You know, like, very totally, you know, uplifting things. And when the 90s came, grunge happened, and I was like. I remember my brother bringing home a Nirvana tape. And I was just like, oh, yeah.

Mine just went. I was like this. So that was. That was kind of the Were your.

Parents strict about letting you listen to outside music like that?

They were, yeah. Absolutely.

Mine too.

Yeah.

I remember going to my friend's house and listening to Nirvana on her tape deck.

Yeah, yeah. I had a CD who's. I'm sure several CDs have gone missing because of this, but One of the CDs was extreme. The album was called Pornographiti.

There was nothing really inherently pornographic about it, but the name porno was honest. And my dad, like, you know, threw.

It in the trash.

Oh, my gosh, you guys are so bad.

A lot of things, like if he sees us, like, oh, you can't listen to this, you know, but yeah, yeah.

We were so edgy, huh?

Apparently, you guys make me look like a saint.

So. Okay, all right.

So when we were interviewing you before, you had told us a story, and I thought it was hilarious because it would not fly nowadays.

I don't think so either.

Can you tell us about the experience you had in school when you learned about the Hermit?

Yes.

Is that what it was?

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So another early influence of mine was the blues. I love the blues. B.B. king's one of my idols.

And where did you live at this point?

This was. We had just come back to America. I don't actually know how this happened because my.

I think my grandparents and like, somebody else would come to me with CDs and, like, this is how I got into jazz. But she says, here's a Thelonious Monk album.

I know you love Thelonious Monk, and I had no idea, but I was like, I didn't want to be rude, so I was like, yeah, I love Thelonious.

Wait, it's a person. It's not monks singing?

No, it's Thelonious Monk. He's a jazz pianist.

Oh, I'm so embarrassed. I will open my.

He's not like one of the, you know, top mainstream people, so, you know, but. But yeah, I listened to it and turns out I was like, I do love this, so. But I also kind of discovered BB King that way. So.

I love the blues and I was gifted a harmonica one year for a birthday or Christmas or something like that. And again, I kind of taught myself how to play and I just. I loved it. I carried it with me everywhere. And my senior year, I was.

I had a bunch of blow off classes. One of them was rotc. So we're in this annex building from the school and it was the last class of the day.

Most people had gone, and I'm walking down this hallway Playing my. My harmonica. Just like an old. A movie. And he's just. And I see this, like, guy just poke his head out of the. One of the rooms. And He's.

I don't know, 40s, maybe 50s. And he looks out and he goes, is that you? I said, yeah. He goes, you like the blues? I said, yeah, I love the blues. He goes, me, too.

And so we just kind of started talking about blues. He's like, I like this guy. Like, this guy. And, like, I just taught myself how to play. He's like, I also played guitar. And he goes, oh, I do too.

I have a lot of guitar. And he. He just goes, hey, do you want to come up here, like, on a Saturday and just have a dance session? And I was like, yeah.

Here, little boy. You want some candy?

Essentially the equivalent.

A lot of guitars in my van. Why don't you check them out? Oh, my gosh. It was amazing. Like, his name was Jerry. I loved him. We got along great. And, like, it was.

And he was clean.

He was clean. Like, he had a, you know, a rough past, too. He went through a divorce, and he was always telling me about all these things.

He's like, I lost this and that. But, like, it was typical, like, makings of a blues movie or song, as.

I was like, that is adorable.

But, yeah.

The two lost souls from different walks of life jamming out. I just love it. Did your parents, like, know you were going to meet up with an older girl?

I never told anybody until just now. Yeah. Now the truth comes out.

Hi, Mom.

Sorry.

Oh, my God, I feel so special. That's the best. That's the best. That's what we do. We try to get those deep confessions out. Oh, my God.

Yeah. I think our parents have gotten some confessionals, huh?

Yeah, that's true, actually.

I love it.

Sam's like, mom, so sorry, if you're listening. Oh, yeah. And Hannah.

Oh. Oh, yeah.

There's been an episode where I was like, mom, tone out. Sister and I are coming out.

So that's awesome. So music always played a part in your life, which is.

Yeah, always. And what brought us together is that to us, you found a unique path of musical therapy.

Yeah, tell us about that a little bit.

Yeah. So like I said earlier, I've always struggled in school.

So, you know, my parents were very conservative as far as, like, your, you know, life choices and trajectory. So as soon as I graduated from high school, they said, okay, you're going to college. You know, go right now.

Like, we had a scholarship to Dallas Baptist University because my parents were missionaries and he was a pastor at the time. And so it was not even a question. He's like, you're. You're going. So I went and I failed absolutely miserably. Like, every class had. I failed it.

And I just had this overwhelming, I guess, need to go back to school, because it was like, that's what you do. You don't question it, you know. So I went to community college after community college, and I just.

I kept failing and failing and failing and failing. And so I just kind of went through life, like, trying to figure out what I could do without a degree.

In the back of my mind, like, when I was going to college or attempting to go to college, I kind of always had this feeling like, I need to help people. I want to help people. I think some then at that time, I was just like, there's something in my past that was really rough.

I don't want other people to go through it. So that's kind of why I want to see if I can give back.

But I was young, and I didn't exactly know what that looked like or, you know, how to do it or anything like that. So I just kind of made my own way. Like, I, I, you know, I've chased the. The band dream for a while. I was in a few bands for years.

I eventually quit grunge bands.

Grunge?

Grunge. Some grunge, yeah. It was like. I think the first gigging band we had was kind of a grunge band. It was like an indie grunge kind of a band.

We had like a little pop punk band. Oh, band. Yeah, it was kind of. It was very varied across the genre, so.

But we just had fun, but eventually just kind of got burnt out on that because it's. It's hard.

You know, you get a lot of people that are in bands and they're very dedicated to their work, and they say, you know, like, we're going to go all the way. We're going to make it, you know, no matter what. And so for me, I thought it would be really amazing to be able to reach that success.

But also it was very draining. And, like, if you didn't, like, walk the walk, talk the talk 100 of the time, you know, you weren't doing your job.

And it just kind of took the fun out of it. So I knew I wanted to stay in music. I became an audio engineer for a while. Kind of got burnt out on that, too.

Tell us, what does an audio engineer do? Exactly.

He's run sound like the guy at the. That runs the sound booth at the concerts.

Concerts. Okay.

So I worked for a production company and we did a lot of weddings, a lot of corporate events and things like that, and that was just. It was a blast. But it's always late nights, you know, we did play at Trees, which is where Nirvana played, which is my.

My massive dream is a small club in deep Ellum. And I was just like. We made it right in my lineup.

Oh, my God.

Kurt stood here. It was incredible.

I got my first tattoo in deep Elm.

Did you? Yeah.

I didn't know Kurt Cobain was down.

There was one day very famous. You can YouTube it. Like, this is a very famous Nirvana moment where, like, he and the sound guy get into a fight and, like they beat each other up.

It was a massive thing. But yeah, okay. Anyway, wow. My ADHD squirrel just went. I forgot where sound.

So the sound tech. Tech.

Yeah.

You lost interest in that, right?

So, yeah, I became a photographer for a while.

Really good.

Oh, thank you.

He did it perfect. Well, obviously professionally, yeah, I always try.

To pursue my passions, whatever those are, you know, just. I just do better.

But it's crazy because we.

It's literally what we were just talking about.

I did not know that's the pet.

I was. That was what I was wondering if you knew exactly what he was about to say.

So we just did our intro for this episode and it was all about kind of, you don't have to go.

To school to be successful following your passion.

And anyway, so, yeah, it was really funny. I didn't know I was going to take this turn.

We're going to take some turns today. It's going to be awesome.

All right.

So, yeah, I did that for a while and I kind of hit a point in my life where I was like, I don't know what I want to do. Like, I want to be, you know, I want to be a better husband. I want to be a better father. You. Like, I want, like, a good life.

Like, we're making money and paying the bills, but like, I always had this dream of I want. I want more, you know? And so I tried little things here and there and just nothing was working out.

So I went back to working in a warehouse as an audio visual warehouse. And I just. Because I had talked to a guy. This is a fun story. So for very, very hot minute, I sold insurance cancer policies.

It was door to door, which I didn't know at the time. I should have known, but it. I did not do well at all. That's not at all, like, my area of expertise in any way. So, I mean, it's freaking.

Just rejection. All day.

It was rejection, and it, like, it really hit me hard. And, like, I didn't sell a single thing. So I was just. I was beat, you know, I was down. They had a thing. I can't.

It's kind of like spirit week, where they go to some small town in the middle of nowhere, and they're like, you're going to sell more than you ever have. And I didn't sell anything. And so on my way back, I was just distraught. I was just like, I don't know what I'm going to do.

Like, I feel like such a failure. And they always said, if there's sun's up, you're knocking on doors. So I was on my way home. I was south of Fort Worth somewhere.

I was driving through somewhere. I was like, you know what? There's sunlight. I'm going to give it one last go.

So I started knocking on homes, and I walked this house, and this for this garage is open. This guy is sitting in there, and he's like, hey, what are you selling? I was like, here's my shot, you know?

So I go in, I'm like, let me tell you something. I was like, here, we got this deal, right? And so I'm still doing the pitch, and he's just looking at me. He goes, do you like what you do?

And I, of course, give him, like, this whole speech. I was like, of course, you know, pays the bills, American dream, blah, blah, blah, right? He goes, cut this, man. He goes, do you like what you do?

And I was like, no, I don't. You know? And so he, like, takes me around his garage, and he's like, let me show you some stuff.

And he pulls this blanket back, and there's this, like, Harley Davidson motorcycle and, like, this picture frame of him and the Hells Angels. He was like, I used to be a Hell what? Like part of the Hell's Angels. And I was like, oh, this is. This is where this ends. Okay.

But, you know, I was just, like, shocked. I was like, what do I do? What do I say? No, I'm like. But he was super nice, you know?

He, like, gave me a beer, and he's like, we dropped around the house, and he's like, you see that? I'm gonna, like, that's my old, you know, 57 Chevy. Whatever. I'm building that up. And he goes, I worked for all of this.

He Goes, I got out of the Hell's Angels, and you don't just walk out of the Hell's Angels with all of your stuff. He's like, I had to work for it. Like, I had to do, like, I paid my, my tolls.

He's like, I've got five kids, like three different moms, but he was like, I take care of all my children. He's like, I'm not just talking child support. He's like, if they need food, I go to their house, I take them to the store.

I take them to the store to clothe them. Like, I'm at every sports event. He's like, I'm there. And like, he just goes through this thing and he's just like, you need to get a real job.

Wow.

And he goes, I work at this concrete plant. He goes, work your way up. And he's like, come up. You're going to be sweeping floors, but you work your way up and you can be somebody someday.

And he's like, just. Just get a real job and take care of your family. And I was like, wow. And so that just really hit home.

So that's how I ended up in the, in the warehouse. And I was there for about a year.

I didn't know that. I remember the little insurance.

Yeah, there's.

What a life changing moment.

I know. So that really kind of set me on a better path. But yeah, so I was working in this warehouse and I still, you know, I wasn't happy.

I'm like, ended up being a really good decision because Covid hit about a year or two after that. And so that. That company pretty much just went away.

But I remember sitting on my lunch break one day on a computer and just going, I need to, like, I'm just not happy. I need to find something. So I started Googling, like, artistic jobs, you know, that pay and da, da, da, da. And like music therapy pops up.

And I didn't even need to know what it was or hadn't any clue what it was. I was just like, that's it. That's what I gotta do. And so I started Googling about it, learning more about it. And so I was like, all right.

So I looked at, Started looking into schools and I found Texas Women's University. I enrolled and I was. And yeah, from there on end, they just. It just kind of took off. So.

Okay, tell us what a musical therapist does. I. I was reading a little bit, trying to see, and it sounds like there's four different types of musical therapy.

Four different Types.

Okay, yes. Tell me if I'm, you know, this is all my really good knowledge off the Internet after Google. So compositional.

Okay.

Improvisational, receptive and recreative. Does that, does those ring a bell?

Yes, absolutely. Those are four. Yeah, those are the four kind of like methods of what a music therapy does.

And they can be used in any kind of modality and any kind of population. So music therapy is basically, it's an evidence, Evidence based practice that uses musical means to achieve therapeutic goals.

So you can take any kind of, you know, your traditional therapies, whatever they are, and just put music into it basically to achieve what you want to achieve. So talk therapy would use talk to kind of get to some of the mental health issues that people are struggling with.

With a music therapist, we just use music, you know, and that can look like we can use. We do a lot of, like, lyric analysis.

We will play a song to see if, you know, something will hit home with patients and they'll be like, oh, yeah, this is exactly what I'm trying to say, you know, because some people just struggle with trying to express themselves with their own words, but they hear a song and they're like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. That's it.

You know, so is this when you sit down with your musical therapist and then they maybe the therapist would typically ask, is there a song this week that's been stuck in your head? And then you just kind of analyze the aspects of that song to kind of see why that's the song that's been speaking to you that week.

Kind of. That too. Yeah. Part of the music therapist's job is to.

Is to kind of seek out that music and be like, you know, because we, you know, we'll start with conversation and be like, tell me what you're, like, struggling with. What are your goals? Like, you know, give me some backgrounds from your past.

This, this is an area where I, I really, absolutely love this kind of work because, like, I kind of pride myself in being like, oh, I know a lot of music, you know, so I'll try to find songs. And it's, you know, it's hit and miss. Like, sometimes you bring up a song and they're like, no.

I'm like, okay, well, and sometimes it does hit an example in my. I went to an internship in Utah, in Logan, Utah, and worked for a private practice. And it was a very broad practice.

Like, we had everything from, like hospice patients to working with autistic kids. We had a sexual Addictions group. We worked in nursing homes.

We. Wow. What was the practice? It was. It was a musical therapy practice.

Yeah, it was called overly musical. Yeah, it's placed. Yeah. Heather Overly. She was amazing. She had. At the time, she had one other employee, and, like, there were.

There's always two interns. There was, like, a junior and a senior intern.

Okay.

So a fun story that I. I love to tell was when we were in their sexual addictions group, and we had this one patient that I just could not get through with.

He did not want to be there, and he was just constantly grumpy. So we do these, you know, exercises and, like, these interventions, and nothing was ever hitting home with him.

And so one day I was like, maybe we'll just have a jam session. We'll just have a drum circle, right? So we bring all these percussion instruments and go get Jerry. Yeah, look at Jerry.

So I started leading it, right? And I'm like, playing. It was like, all right, here's the rules. Like, you have to play with me. You have to switch out your instruments at least twice.

You know, all these things. And so I'm watching the participants and, like, seeing how they're feeling.

Like, if I can get any feedback from them, like, if they're opening up, we try to look, like, at their body language, you know, if they're getting into it, like, if they're holding back, you know, just kind of gauge how they're feeling based on what they're showing is. And, like, I'd switch out an instrument, and, like, this guy would switch out. He kept going.

And I was unsure about, like, how it was going because I couldn't quite read them. And he was like. And then. So afterwards, when we're done, I said, all right, how is that? Like, give me some feedback.

How do you guys feel about what happened? He just goes, that sucked. Okay, that's valid. Yeah, this is cool. That's all right. You know, Speak your mind, please. Like, this is what.

Okay, okay.

So my internship director later told me, she's like, every time you switched an instrument. And he had to. He just goes. He just wanted it to end. I was like, okay. So that wasn't it. The following week, I brought in this song.

The song was A little Hell by City and Color. Excellent song. Check it out.

Okay.

It talks about relationships and how it can be difficult because the person, from his perspective, he talks about. He's like, I have addictions.

It's going to be hard, but I'm, like, doing my best, you know, And I wish we could go back to a time where everything was harmonious and beautiful. So I play that song, and I was like, how did everybody feel about that? You're like, let's talk about the lyrics. You know what.

What lyrics stood out to you? And, like, one guy over here was crying. Like, some other people were, like, contemplative.

And the guy that I was trying to get through didn't say anything. He just kind of, like, sat there and was like. So I was like, okay. Don't know how that went.

And then the next session, we come in, and we're talking, and he's. He's super quiet. He's not saying a word. And I look at him. I was like, do you have anything to say?

And he just kind of sits there for a minute, and he pulls out this binder, and he goes, I wrote some poems. I want to read them to you. And I was like, oh, what? Amazing. Yeah. So he reads this, like, song or poem, and it was just beautiful.

Like, he just poured his heart out on this paper. And I was like, that what? Incredible. Thank you so much. You know, and he goes, I've got another one. And he read, like, 304. I was like, that's it.

I was like, this is what we're looking for. This is what we need. This is beautiful.

So that's beautiful.

And he ended up discharging, like, a couple of weeks away later. So he, like, he ended up making some progress and, like, hitting all of his. His mark, his markers, or whatever he needed to hit to get out. So. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Interesting.

And that has to feel good for you.

Yeah, absolutely.

Totally.

Yeah. That's a really great success story.

Yeah, so. Because that's actually interesting. Cause I was wondering, too. Like, one of my questions was, how do you know what kind of.

What method to use for your patients? Like, how do you analyze them and decide this is what I think will work for them? But it sounds like trial and error.

Maybe a lot of trial and error. Yeah. It just kind of depends on who you're working with. Like, it's such a. It's such a broad practice. Like, you can. We work a lot of.

With people who have, like, physical disabilities, like people with Parkinson's. Speech therapists. We know. We work with speech therapists a lot. So the cool thing about.

Oh, that's right. Yeah, that's right. The music therapy, it's.

It.

A lot of times, it's for people who aren't able to be very vocal. And so you had told us about.

You were able to give people an instrument and assign them to, like, family members, and so they wouldn't even have to talk about how they feel about people. Is. Am I remembering that correctly?

Yeah, absolutely. That was that same group. Yeah.

So instead of using words, since people have difficulties expressing themselves that way, they can also express themselves musically. In the great thing about.

Sometimes we don't know how we're feeling.

Exactly. Yeah. Sometimes you just gotta, you know, jam it out on a drum or something like that. Like, you just. I'm a huge believer of free flow.

Like, just let your body speak, like, move around, make noises, do whatever it is you need to do to kind of flesh out whatever is inside. But, yeah, that intervention that you're talking about is called a family dynamic.

So we would bring up instruments, percussion instruments, and we would have somebody be the leader and be like, choose an instrument that represents you best and then play it in that style. Recreate yourself with this instrument. And then they had to give instruments to other participants and say, okay, you're going to play my dad.

You're going to play my mom. Mom sounds like this. Dad sounds like this. Brother sounds like this. And so you have this orchestra of basically just noise. But, like, it's.

It's an coffin. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's. It's still musical, though. Like, it's. It's all subjective. So they have this loud thing going on.

Everything's, like, banging, and he's just rattling and all this other stuff. And so then we can discuss about it. It's like, well, how did that. What did that sound? Like, how did that feel?

Was that, you know, how did everybody else feel? Does anybody else else have insight on, you know, how this made them feel? So we kind of discuss it that way.

And then after that, we kind of flip the tables and say, okay, I want you to play yourself with this, with whatever instruments you choose in the way that you would like to hear yourself.

Oh, yeah.

And then they do the same thing. They hand out the instruments and say, dad, this is you. This is how I want you to sound. Mom, this is how I want you to sound, brother. All this.

And so they get to orchestrate this. They lead the session of cacophonous noises and just say, this is. This is how I would like my life to sound. This is how I want my dynamics to be.

So they can kind of work through how they're feeling and how. What they want out of their relationship. And so that kind of gives them the goal to be like, okay, I know what I want you to sound.

Like, you know, so then they can start setting boundaries and be like, this is. This is what I want from you. This is what I need from you.

It's like a way they can kind of begin to take control, like, even. Because you can't control something if you.

Don'T know what you want out of it.

Exactly.

Does it end up sounding like harmony when they give people. When they assign an instrument of how they want the family dynamic to sound? Does it, like, ever sound Harm.

Harmonious?

Harmonious.

Yes. Thank you.

Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes we're like. We're inherently musical beings, so we have. Even if we don't have any, like, musical skills, we.

We kind of, like, I don't know, gravitate towards each other in that. And so, like, you go long enough in a drum circle or whatever, like, you're.

You start to kind of connect, and things will start to, like, mesh together and just. And work together.

Oh, that reminds me of the other story you were telling us with the humming.

The drum circle.

Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, it wasn't drums. It was humming. Yeah.

So we did this exercise when I was in college. She was my vocal professor, and she. She would always try to lead the class in some kind of, like, relaxing, kind of a meditation before we started.

So she said, all right, I'm going to start humming a note. And she's like, I just want you to, like, close your eyes, focus on the humming, and, like, I'll give you direction as we go along.

So she just kind of started humming. She's like, you know, like, specific. And then she says, all right, I want you guys to come in. Come in at your own volume. Come in at your own pitch.

However you feel like you need to hum, just start to hum. So when it began, it was like this room full of just, like, odd and odd, like, humming. And, like, it was just kind of all over the place.

And she kind of guided us, and she's like, all right, let's try to sway with your humming. Like, go up and down. Practice, like, experience, like, how loud, how quiet. And so everybody was just kind of doing it.

So we had this ocean of just, like, craziness. Like, they were in a storm. And, like, after a little bit without trying, everything just kind of came together.

And it was like this beautiful swaying of, like, waves. This ocean.

I'm getting chill.

It was so great, and we felt just so incredibly, like, connected. And everybody was just there as we were, like, one. And it was just this beautiful feeling. Like, it was amazing.

It sounds like an. A share of energy with everyone in the room.

Yes.

Yeah.

Let me grab my notes.

Energy exchange. Yeah.

What did you say?

Yeah, I listened to the shamanic episode. Yes. Yeah, she did totally talk about that, too. And I was just like, that's it. That's what I'm. That's what I'm trying to say.

Yeah.

And I was telling Melissa how funny it was after we spoke with you, how well I thought it blended in, because Melissa, one of her big questions to you is also the neuroscience behind it.

And so when you explain that to us and you're going to explain it to all of us again, Laura also had a neuroscience explanation on how the brain works with the energy exchange and. And what that does.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you mentioned in that episode about mirror neurons and how nearby neurodiverse people don't have that. She also mentioned the alpha and the.

Like the beta waves and the theta waves. Right. And I actually did a study, A research study in that in college, because I'm first and foremost, like, a big metal head. Right.

I love loud rock music. It's like I need it to, like, just. I need to feel it in my chest, Right. Like, I'm. I have, like, major depressive disorder.

I've got ADHD and, like, a lot of anxiety. I'm somewhere on the spectrum. Right. I haven't been tested for it, but I definitely am neurodiverse in some way.

So that has been a real game changer for me, just realizing who I am, what I am, and then understanding the science behind it. So in neurodiverse people, the alpha and the beta waves are reversed.

So she talked about the alpha are in charge of relaxation, and then the other one, the beta waves, are in. In charge of focus. So as, like, neurodiverse people grow, their anxiety gets higher, their focus gets, you know, a little bit less.

So when I study, I've been able to kind of go through several different genres of music to different styles of music and kind of figure out what fits my mood. So for me, if I have. I'm not sure how to explain it, but, like, multitasking, studying to do.

Like, if I'm reading, I'm taking notes, I'm highlighting, I'm doing all this other stuff. I have to keep track of several different things. Like, I listen to instrumental metal because the rhythms are far more complex.

So it just keeps my brain like. Like it just kind of re. Resets my. Not resets my brain, but, like, it helps me.

Kind of helps the other waves take over.

Yeah. Because my brain study music I'll, like, start to get relaxed and, like, start to get tired.

But I have to keep my attention up, so that helps me just kind of keep my focus going. So there's a lot.

So, like, if you're studying, you're gonna play, like, AC DC type stuff.

Instrument.

Is that what I'm hearing?

Not. Not really. ACDC is very.

He's like, I don't like acdc. I'm just kidding.

Great motivational music for me. That's what that. That's one for me. That's a go, go music for me.

Okay, good.

But you're cool, Sam.

You're still cool.

Yeah.

Don't know a damn song.

So I'll throw out some bands for you. Animals of Leaders. Polyphia. These are all, like, instrumental metal bands. They're really. Polyphia. P O L Y P H I A. Yeah.

Thank you. I'm going to look these up and maybe I'll link them.

Please do. Yeah. Politicia is amazing.

I've never heard of instrumental metal. Are you talking, like, Juilliard stuff? Well, actually, wait, There's a band called Dream Theater. Are they instrumental? Not metal.

But they're considered prog rock. But they're not instrumental. They were probably one of the pioneers of the genre. Yeah, they're incredible. Yeah.

But a lot of the same style, like, the very technical, like, beats. Like, it's not just like your pump, bum, bum. Right.

Yeah.

Okay, so it has a lot of that. So it's just like, minor is like. Right.

So I feel like we just got some scatting in a conversation. Go. Anyway, I do that. Oh, sorry.

People make fun of me.

Not make fun of me.

No.

But like.

Like my tattoo artist, she always cracks up. She's like, you are just the funniest person. And I'm like, I didn't say anything. So, okay, visual. Funny story. So she did a sternum tattoo for me.

And so when she's trying to make sure that the stencil is on, right? She's like, all right, spread your chest, Put them back together. Lay down, spread your chest, Put it back together. And every time I'm going through.

And she goes, why are you doing that?

Like, I don't know.

You're like, because this is uncomfortable and I need something to like.

That's hilarious.

I love that. I do that. I do that a lot. Simon and I. I have a son named Simon.

Yeah, he does.

And so he's autistic and he's. He gets nonverbal under stressful situations, but he makes A lot of noise.

So sometimes we'll just like, like sit back and forth and be like, you know, I'm just like. It's this whole conversation.

Both.

The old two of us are the only people going, yeah, I get it.

But you guys can understand each other through the noises.

He makes some. He makes some amazing noises. You may hear him now. He might be waking up and getting on his computer, but we'll see.

She's at mom's house, so she's okay. She has a job, so she's working this weekend. She's like, ah, you know, she. She likes to have the house to herself.

She's just like, I like being at home, like, having the rest. There's like, totally, totally.

So where were we?

I know, sorry, I took us out.

No, no, you're fine.

That's where we were with the boobs.

But why were we talking about sounds? We were talking about neuro.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Because we were talking about the instrumental.

Bring us back, Brad.

So it goes both ways, right? You have that. That's what really helps me focus on. On work and, like, just keep me moving forward. And then just recently.

Oh, I need to see if I can find it. My partner Kat gave me, sent me this link on Spotify, and it's list of music at a. I think it's 145 beats per minute.

And if I'm not mistaken, that's kind of the regular or the typical speed of speech. It's supposed to reset your ADHD brain, basically. So it's just like a way for your brain to go, oh, to stop and just kind of like reset.

I need that.

Yeah, I can. I can send it to you.

Yeah. Thank you. And I'll link it too.

There's a playlist that my therapist has me listen to when we're in a session. And it's. It's called dynamic something or another.

And she's like, the sounds in the music of this playlist, it's to activate both sides of your brain so that your brain can work on what it's trying to work on. And you don't even have to talk.

Emdr. Is she doing EMDR with you with music?

No, it's brain spotting.

Oh, I've never done that. Do you know anything about that?

Not too much. I know. I think that goes into the realm of like, what's it called? Sound. There's something called sound bathing. There's.

There's another whole genre outside of that, just like, using energy. Like you have, like.

I think the podcast the other day mentioned, like, you have your chakras and your alignment and like the sounds coming over you and like the energy and like that's kind of what that is. So you have these big. They're kind of sound bolds and you can just like make these. This. Oh yeah. Creates a certain frequency. Yeah, you have one. Yeah.

So you create a certain frequency and like it resonates somewhere within your body and you can kind of fine tune where you're your like your energies and stuff like that. So really cool stuff. I'd love to get into that more.

But it's like living proof that these abstract things are. I mean, I read that they can anatomically change you. There's studies like, not.

They like the music and the therapy that you get with through the music therapy, it's like you can actually change.

Yeah. We worked with a couple of clients that had. They had strokes and so their speech was. Yo, put me on the spot.

And like, forget the parts of the brain, but they're affected. I'm blanking. But anyway, the speech part was interrupted. So they had really difficult time producing speech.

Like they could understand it, they knew what they wanted to say, but it was just not being produced. So when we use music, like highlights the entire. No, it's not the hippocampus. It's the broca's area of your speech center. The broca's.

Broca's a patient.

There you go.

So when we use music, it kind of highlights the entire brain. So you know, your. Your neurons are going from like a. Processing or a. Oh, technical terms. I'm a horrible this. But anyway, like, they, they'll.

They'll fire and there's a blockage and they can't get the words.

Okay.

So when you use music, it kind of highlights the brain. So these neurons kind of have another path of highlighted regions of the brain where there's like, oh, I go this way.

So your brain in a way rewires itself to find new paths to like complete the tasks that they're trying to do. We the a big saying we always had in school. Like, we. Every semester, every couple of months, it was like the neurons that fire together.

Wild.

Okay. That's so cute.

So, yeah. So you can YouTube like a lot of speech things with music therapy where people can't speak but they can sing. Right.

So on a near neurocognitive level, it's really fun where you sit with somebody and try to get them to use language to take care of their everyday tasks, like needing to go to the bathroom. So if they can't speak it, you can sit with them and you just create a beat. Like, you create your study beat.

And like, okay, let's sync up with the speed. And then you just. You just practice with them. I want to go to the bathroom. Right. So you just make it musical. And like, that.

That catches a lot better because your whole brain is, like, firing. And, you know, you're just like, okay. And like, so then. Then they can start doing that. And so the same thing with Parkinson's. You put a.

A rhythmic component to it. And this is all on. Like, all these things are on YouTube. You can YouTube all of them. You see this man with Parkinson's.

He's walking, he's stumbling, and he's, like, having his walker, and he's like, okay, let's put in this musical stimulus. You know, like, we got a nice steady beat going. And, like, they will sync up with that beat and start walking a lot better.

So through music therapy, the goal is to kind of reduce that musical stimulus, the external stimulus, to make that kind of an internal thing. So they always have this beat so they can kind of sync up their movements or with that.

Oh, so many things are clicking.

Yeah, yeah.

So first off, while you're talking, it reminded me of a interview that I had listened to with Billie Eilish, and someone was interviewing her. And so she actually has Therese, and the only time she doesn't stutter and show signs of Tourette's is when she's on stage singing.

That's so interesting. I was thinking the same thing. My dad said he met. There's this guy who used to do, like, comedic songs.

Cause, like, his name was Ray Stevens, and they're actually kind of inappropriate sometimes when you hear them Nutties. But anyway, my dad met him in real life and he said that he stutters so bad, but on the stage, he's, like, talking so fast like an auctioneer. Music.

Yeah.

The magical tool.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Really, Eilish, I didn't.

And then the. The other thing that clicked, when I get super, super anxious and, like, I'm overstimulated and start to feel like I'm about to have a panic attack.

I'll put in my earbuds on this, like, steady sound. And so then it, like, that's all I hear. And so I can keep walking or, you know, in the crowd or whatever we're doing.

And then I start to, like, calm back down because I'm just listening to that one sound in my.

That's Amazing. So you're using. You're already having music therapy happen?

Yeah, I didn't really realize it. I just kind of did that because I was like, all right, I'm about to pass out, so we gotta calm down.

And you're lucky enough to know, like, hey, this works for me.

Yeah.

Wow.

Maybe off topic, but just out of curiosity, you were raised by missionaries. Is that still the kind of lifestyle? And do you still. Are you still a part of a church?

No, no, not. I'm not. Yeah, that's a. That's an interesting journey, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So now tell me.

Oh, yeah. So it started when it started it.

I'd always kind of viewed the church as a bit of a business because I was always there, you know, at church, and I was there for the business meetings and all this other stuff. And, like, people would come up and be like, well, my interpretation of the word is like, is this. So you're wrong. And like, it just.

It was just like a lot of fighting. It's like. But we also have to, you know, take the money. Like, what trips are we going to take? What are we going to fit? You know?

And I was like, it's just so much bureaucracy and so much, like, arguing between what people think is this and that. But on an emotional level, like, it just never sat with me.

And my parents always was like, you know, have faith in them, trust them, test them, do all this other stuff. And, like, it just. I never felt anything, you know? And so in my mind, it was just really.

It was just a really limiting experience because, like, I lived in this box, kind of like school. It was like, oh, I am meant to go to school because that's what. What. What. My mom loves to say, traditional wisdom or something like that.

She's like, that's what that dictates. Like, you know, that's what this is like. You go to school because that's what you do. You get married because that's what you do.

You have kids because that's what you do. So I never questioned anything in life, especially these past couple of years.

I've been on an amazing journey of just completely opening up and just being like, I'm just gonna, like, discover myself completely. This is full circle.

It is possible. Can I ask at what age that. That kind of. That hit?

How old are you?

I'm 45. It was probably in my 30s. Like, I always kind of. I mean, I. I'd stopped going to church, I guess, after I moved out. So somewhere in my.

In my 20s and I. I just was not very active. I didn't question it. I was like, yeah, sure, there's a God, whatever, you know, But. Well, but I think in my.

Probably my later 30s, like, my ex, Amanda and I, like, we. We kind of went on this journey together. We started kind of questioning our beliefs and things like that.

She was raised Catholic, so she was kind of in that same boat. And she really helped me a lot. And she just kind of. She was. She was bolder than I was at the time. She's like, question it.

Like, let's step out of this box. See what they're.

She is not afraid to look at things and. And face them and try to learn from them, isn't she?

Yeah, she absolutely is. So she really kind of pulled me out of that box and like, kind of led this. This journey of questioning things.

I think it's so cool how, one, our intro went right on into this. And two, our previous episode went right on into this. I know you can't make this shit up. Like, it just.

I feel like it. Honestly, I feel like it was inspirational, and I feel like the things that we're putting out into the universe are coming back to us.

And I think having you on it was just. It was meant to be.

It's just adding to the story. We're just creating a story.

That's beautiful.

Yeah. That is beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for having, by the way.

Speaking of which, by the way, I've been listening to some of several of the episodes that you guys put on, and I. When I was listening to the Shamanic episode last night, I was. I had a giggle a little bit because I was. Because you were like, oh, Melissa Walker.

And I was like, you know, I don't think I've heard an episode where you did not. And I'm like. You mentioned Melissa Walker as much as Melissa Walker mentions horses.

That's hilarious.

I guess she.

Do you know Melissa?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

She played a big role in my life.

Right.

That's interesting, because I didn't.

She is amazing. She got me started on my. My therapy.

Oh.

You know, she's like. She started it all. I love it. I'm like. I tell everybody, like, go to therapy. It's amazing.

As everyone should.

Right?

Yeah.

Don't wait until it's already too hard.

Yeah, it doesn't.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The way. The harder it gets.

Yep. I love it so. Well, thanks so much for waking up to join us this early. That's right.

It's like 9am where he is yeah, we appreciate you.

It's really fun.

Thank you. I appreciate you guys too.

Thanks for listening to us. Like you actually heard some of our stuff. I think you're our first guest that's listened to pre episodes.

Yeah, thank you.

Really.

Yeah.

Good stuff. I love it.

Yeah, thank you so much.

It's really good.

Well, yeah, we'll be in touch.

We will. It was good to talk to you. Good to see see your face.

If you liked what you heard today, hit that like button or the subscribe button or whatever button it is that you have.

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