What are the emotional and mental impacts of perimenopause and menopause? What are some of the holistic solutions to dealing with the symptoms of menopause?
MEET Adina Middleman
Adina Middleman is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker who has been a therapist for nearly 20 years. She currently serves adults and couples but began her therapy journey as a child therapist. Adina serves a diverse population and has an eclectic approach encouraging the client to “steer the ship”. She was a foster care social worker, an intensive reunification case manager, a teacher in a psychiatric hospital, and a preschool teacher (to name a few) prior to going to graduate school. Adina has been married for 23 years and has two sons who are hopefully graduating college and high school this year.
Find out more about Adina at New Hope Counseling
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Chris McDonald: Are you a woman who is struggling with symptoms of menopause or know someone who is the weight gain, mood changes, half flashes an insomnia. These are just a few of the difficult symptoms women faced. In today's episode, I'll explore the impact. What are some of the other symptoms you would be surprised to learn about?
And some holistic solutions for this. Ready to dig in? Let's do it. This is Holistic Counseling, the podcast for mental health therapists who want to deepen their knowledge of holistic modalities and build their practice with confidence. I'm your host, Chris McDonald, licensed therapist. I am so glad you're here for the
Adina Middleman: journey.
Chris McDonald: Hey there, and welcome to today's episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. I have a story for you today. Years ago, my guest and friend, Adina Middleman, who is a licensed social worker, was working at her practice, has two sons. Things were going well about their normal pace. Until she had a complete crash with her mental health, she began having panic attacks for the first time in her life.
She stopped sleeping. It impacted her relationships in every part of her life. She struggled to find the help she needed. She was not aware that these were unexpected menopause symptoms. She is here to share her story as well as solutions that you can learn from. But before we jump in, do you struggle with self-care as a therapist?
Are you always last on your to-do? You are not alone. Many counselors find it difficult to find the time for self-care practices. My book, self-Care for the Counselor was written for you. In it, you'll find it jam-packed with holistic strategies to help create consistent practices and help you find balance and the renewed energy you need to get through your day.
Stay tuned at the end of the episode on how to access this book. Back to today's episode. Welcome to the podcast, Edina.
Adina Middleman: Thank you so much, Chris. I'm happy to be here today. Can you tell my
Chris McDonald: listeners more about yourself and your work? Certainly.
Adina Middleman: I'm a private clinician, mental health therapist. I work in Midtown and I've been doing therapy, whew, going on 20 years.
A little bit longer actually, in private practice, about 18. I see a very eclectic population. I'm used to be exclusively kids when I first started over a couple of decades ago, but it slowly moved. All adults. I haven't seen kids in a while. Youngest, usually college age all the way up to later age and helping people with all different needs, but mostly folks with a lot of life transition is what I tend to focus on and helping them navigate that.
Chris McDonald: So I know that you and I had talked. The difficult journey you had with midlife and with perimenopause and how much it changed you and and really changed your perspective on everything. So let's start from the beginning. So when did you notice some of the changes in your
Adina Middleman: body? So I'm a little bit complicated because I would say even in my late thirties.
I was having issues with really erratic periods and I thought it was perimenopause and was told by a gynecologist or two that it was, and then we found out that I had fibroids, had multiple surgeries and such with that. But then about five and a half. Years ago, things really started to change that were more stereotypical symptoms.
Um, and I say stereotypical because I wanna really emphasize that perimenopause is not just those symptoms.
Chris McDonald: So what do you mean by stereotypical symptoms?
Adina Middleman: Often when women are watching media or just having casual conversations about the change. As you know, we grew up talking about it. If we talk about it at all, you, you hear about hot flashes and night sweats, and you see women fanning themselves, maybe a little more irritated periods starting to be a little bit erratic, maybe moving farther apart, maybe moving closer together, and that's when I knew.
That things were starting to legitimately change in that way. Moving towards menopause, moving into perimenopause, but then things got really. Quickly, very bad for me. How so? It would be a whole other podcast, but it happened in conjunction with some really stressful life situations that were going on with my kid, my eldest in school.
I won't go into the details, but I really started to fall into a dark place where I was. Anxious. Way more anxious than I'd ever been in my life. And I consider myself someone with mild to moderate generalized anxiety, but I was just ruminating constantly. The main thing, I stopped sleeping and I would go for one night.
Two nights, three nights with almost zero hours of sleep. And you can imagine the toll that
Chris McDonald: took. So it wasn't just, I can't get to sleep or till 2:00 AM or, or just waking up early. So it was really not sleeping at all.
Adina Middleman: It was really not sleeping at all and trying to change locations and you know, having multiple places where I would rotate throughout the night and just a.
Poor relationship with sleep and then start ruminating by about two o'clock in the afternoon that I wasn't going to sleep. And I think it was a vicious cycle, but it began due to the perimenopause symptoms. And I, I really didn't make that connection for a lot of years. And it was research on my own accord that helped me figure out, wow, the, these things can go quickly and go.
Fast and the lack of sleep obviously led to other symptoms and chicken and egg, it's hard to tell. Yeah. Which caused
Chris McDonald: what. I know you mentioned another out of the ordinary symptom was losing
Adina Middleman: your hair too. Oh yeah. My hair started to really thin out. A lot of women. Struggle with weight gain, and that's a estrogenic response because your body wants to hold onto the estrogen.
As your estrogen leaves your body and estrogen is stored in your fat molecules. The opposite for whatever reason happened to me and I lost my appetite and I was going to the bathroom multiple times a day where my body just wasn't retaining nutrients, so I lost tons of weight and not in a good. I did not look healthy.
I, I, yeah, I, I talk about myself being kind of scary, skinny. I'm not a large or tall person, and so it was pretty extreme. If you were to see pictures of me, you would, you'd be concerned. .
Chris McDonald: So it sounds like it impacted physical and
Adina Middleman: mental health. Yeah, and definitely emotionally. I wasn't myself. I felt like I was, I read somewhere searching for answers.
I still see the sign outside of a compounding pharmacy. One of the places I tried to go to get help to get some type of supplement, and it said wired and tired. That's how I felt. I was constantly in that sympathetic nervous system. Cortisol overload. Where I wasn't sleeping, but I was wired. And when I knew that I was at my worst, this sounds odd, and I don't know if anyone else ever has experienced this.
My brain forgot how to yawn, so I would be exhausted and I would never yawn, and that was always an indicator of, oh, I'm really not doing well. When I haven't slept well, I can't nap, and I'm not yawning. Did this affect your memory? You know what's interesting? I felt like I could hyperfocus when I needed to, and then after say my workday, there was nothing left.
I kind of equate it to somebody who has really severe A D H D and pushes through, pushes through pushes, through hyper focuses. And then doesn't have anything left. Can't remember what they ate two hours ago or what their kid told them 15 years ago. So yeah, I would say it almost like you were impacted my, you were on overdrive and.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Chris McDonald: And how did this affect you as a clinician? So as
Adina Middleman: a clinician, interestingly, I powered through and I remember talking to my own therapist that I only missed, I only had to cancel due to illness in about four years. Seven clients. And when I say illness, I mean I was feeling so bad.
My body hurt so much from lack of sleep and cortisol overload that I had to call in sick, so to speak. So I didn't miss much work. Maybe I should have, but I think it impacted me for the better, oddly, because I could for the first time really, really empathize with my client's. True suffer. I had had mild anxiety, but I'd never had a panic attack before.
And I had started having panic attacks, and now I knew, and I knew what it meant to have such an extreme feeling of it. It was almost despair coupled with anxiety at the same time. So that empathy and that ability to understand those I work with was really drastically improved. It wasn't. To be a therapist when you were on overdrive, but I learned how to do it and it forced me, like you talked about in your intro, it forced me to be so diligent about figuring out a regimented self-care
Chris McDonald: practice and how did you adapt with self-care and what did you
Adina Middleman: do?
So we're talking the span of about five. and some of it is kind of foggy and the, the timeline is a bit hard for me to articulate exactly, but I know that when Covid hit, which obviously was really hard for a lot of people, I'm not trying to minimize that in any way, shape, or form. But for me, because I had to be home, it forced me to be more diligent about starting meditating, doing an exercise practice daily.
Making sure that I rested in the day or that I sat outside with my clients on my laptop doing telehealth. So that's really when things started to turn around and I started to figure out how to wean myself off of the medication I was prescribed. I hadn't mentioned that, but I was prescribed. So many different medications to try to regulate my mood and help me sleep.
I say my brain was broken and covid made me stop and pause. and figure out how to get back on track. Yeah. So
Chris McDonald: it sounds like you're trying to manage your symptoms with mental health medications. Is it, I'm guessing antidepressants
Adina Middleman: and, yes. I probably saw over the span of three years, maybe nine different.
Clinicians, oh my goodness. Several psychia. Yeah. Several psychiatrists. An osteopath, a naturopathic doctor. And I went on what I call a chase for a unicorn, for a gynecologist who could help me. I'd like to share with you that journey. If, if, if that would be okay, because I really wanna help them understand that they don't.
Some of the treatment that I was given by women, older women doctors. Wow. In my journey. Yeah. So I started off with someone who I really like, and actually I've come full circle and I've gone back to her and, and this is a message I wanna get out there with the disclaimer. That I'm obviously not a doctor.
I'm not a naturopath. I'm an L C S W and I know that everybody is different and people have risk factors and they need to do a, their due diligence regarding what works for them. But my original gynecologist pre all this stuff, I really trusted, she helped me through all my fibroid journey, but she really wanted me to get on hormone replacement therapy when things just began and I was really resistant and.
And she said, I don't know how to help you then. So I went on this kind of goose chase looking for a unicorn to find a gynecologist who would help me, not make me quote unquote take hormones, understand the natural route I wanted to take, which I'd be happy to share some of the things that I do now and, and you know how I progressed into doing kind of a hodgepodge of both hormones and natural remedies, and I.
Ran into people who treated me basically, I hate to use this word as a therapist, but treated me like I was crazy. I had one gynecologist older woman who has since retired, look at me and say, I have never heard of such severe symptoms. This is a psychiatric issue. You need a psychiatrist? I can add a psychiatrist.
Oh, I had a psychiatrist, Chris, who was trying to work with me and prescribe, and she, she was aggressive. I even remember her giving me, um, an exam and it was physically uncomfortable. Like she was very rough in palpating me and palpitating, and I had another woman. Who I did wind up taking her advice and start hormone replacement therapy, but she didn't give me any guidance and what she prescribed to me originally was not the right fit, and she too older woman.
obviously had an easy perimenopause menopause shift. Did not believe me, and was really condescending. That had to be
Chris McDonald: so hard for you
Adina Middleman: too. Yeah, wounding really to be treated by the people who are supposed to be the experts, as if you are crazy and you don't know your own body and you don't know what you're talking about.
And being told, I've never heard anything like.
Chris McDonald: Wow. Mm-hmm. So it sounds like there's, there may not be enough information out there, or knowledge about the impact of perimenopause and menopause and women, and it can be so different for everybody's
Adina Middleman: experience. Right. And that's why I'm talking to you, to you today, because I think overall, going through this myself, you know, it's always been my passion.
Help people find their voice, be better self-advocates. But now I have this platform or this mission where I really hope both professionally and personally, I can get women talking to each other, understanding the connection between their body's hormones and their moods, and demanding better care. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. , because cuz the, the, our, our country really is behind when it comes to understanding the medical emotional needs of women going through this, this stage of life.
Chris McDonald: Oh, I totally agree. And I, I think you mentioned too that people don't talk about it. And I know I, I heard the same thing that you said that I remember my mom going through the quote, unquote the change and it was.
Deep, mysterious thing, and me and my sister are like, why is she irritable? ? Yeah. And that's like all we knew about it. I didn't understand, like my mom didn't talk about it, nobody talked about it. And then as I'm going through menopause now, I felt this like weird shame. About admitting symptoms and I was like trying to understand myself like where is this coming from?
Like why do I feel embarrassed to even tell like my own sister or a friend, like I'm experiencing these symptoms. It just didn't add up for me. Can you talk to that a
Adina Middleman: little bit? Absolutely. And I think part of it is because we are probably the first generation of women, unless there was outliers back in our mother's generations to be more outspoken.
and to be better advocates kind of globally where we're we're, but we're still coming out of that stuff it down. Don't talk about it. They're crazy if you're going through anything. Oh, those crazy menopausal women. I remember my mom going through it when I was. About 13 because she went through it very young, and that's one of the things I wanted to mention is if there is the ability to talk to a parent, a grandparent, an aunt, a relative, a cousin, people on your maternal side in particular, but it can be paternal to find out their experiences.
There's genetic predispositions to responses of menopause because my mom went through what they called stress-induced menopause at 30. Wow. Mm. And hers was different than mine because it was fast. She was, sorry, mom if you're listening, but she was off the chain. She was, you know, her moods were very erratic, but she went through it in a year and then she was done and.
I think that she was prescribed, is it Premarin? That was like the horse urine h r t, back in the day. And that's one. And that's one of the reasons that I was so hesitant to try anything because it was horrible for her. And there was a lot of messaging around that even. Even without talking about it much in detail, cuz I.
Oh gosh, she was 39. I was young, I was a young teenager when she went through it. But I think back to your, your point about that shame, there's shame talking about your period when you're a, a young girl. You know, I don't know if you remember, but I remember being so afraid that I'd have an accident or someone in, in my high school would see a pad fall out of my purse.
I think that's changing now and it's, it's really up to our generation and if we have daughters to help them just have a voice and really be talking to one another. And I was thinking while
Chris McDonald: you were talking about, you mentioned like family genetics with menopause and I'm thinking. Of all, I have like a big family and all my aunts and cousins, I'm like, nobody has ever mentioned anything about menopause.
I'm like, I have no idea what anyone has gone through. I would be
Adina Middleman: curious. I know, I'd be curious. Chris, I'm curious if you asked would, would they share, and if there's any shame, you know, you can't be your, your family's therapist obviously, but could you help, could you help break the silence about it?
Because now you got me curious. I know. And, and, and really if you find out, say that you have an aunt who had this symptom or that symptom that aren't your stereotypical symptoms, and you're like, wait, I'm having that too. Isn't that validating? Okay. What did you do about it? Yeah, no, that,
Chris McDonald: that would be help.
And I feel the isolation because like I was afraid at first to talk about it, you know? And then when I started to, I was like, okay, screw it. I. I'm just gonna bring this up to my friend and talk to her and she's like, oh my God, I'm going through the same thing. Cuz you know, I've had hot flashes or my sleep has just been crazy and Yep.
You know, and I'm a good sleeper. Like normally I, I have no problems. I fall asleep within three minutes. But that's been totally disrupted and trying to work through that and you know, and now I'm starting to, I feel like I'm coming out of the menopause closet, which I don't know why . It's like this is a natural thing that all
Adina Middleman: women go through.
I know. And we're more than half of. At least our IG nation's population. Right? Yeah.
Chris McDonald: And guess what? All women go through this in one way or another.
Adina Middleman: Exactly, exactly. Is it okay for me to quote an article that recently came out? So there was an article, I know there's some controversy with the New York Times, and I'm not an avid New York Times supporter, but this article called Women have Been Misled about Menopause.
The author of Susan Dominus, I believe is how you pronounce her last name. Was so spot on and validating to read, and it talks about kind of what you and I are talking about today, but medically and statistically, the way America has been given messaging about menopause has been completely inaccurate.
And I highly recommend if you can get your hands on that article. Chris, I'll send you a copy if you, can you send me the link? Need it? Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. I'll, I'll send you the link And, uh, the quote that stood out to me from her, which obviously. We have a lot of rights and a lot of freedoms in this country compared to women in other countries.
Oh, absolutely. That's, that is, that is a, a given. Right. But the quote that she gave, and I was reading that article, going Yes, was we have a high cultural tolerance for women's suffering. And she very articulately talks about, imagine if men had to get up from staff meetings to open a window and fan themselves and couldn't concentrate because they were so hot.
Imagine men if went night, after night after night with no sleep and were, you know, struggling getting themselves out of bed. Imagine if their sex drives went completely defunct all of a sudden, or they, you know, and she just talks about. Differently it would be treated if it was menopause, , you know, good one.today show with Ann Curry in:
And that one interview with statistics that were skewed caused our media. To lob onto this idea that hormone replacement was bad, dangerous for everybody and should only be prescribed in the most extreme cases. And it's only recently that the medical world has been counteracting that message. Yeah. In my
Chris McDonald: research I, I discovered that as well.
Cuz for me, I, I was like a lot of fear as I thought about that. You're gonna get cancer right away. It's gonna be horrible for your health. I thought this is a horrible, and it was like, it felt like ingrained me. I guess I've heard it in the media,
Adina Middleman: right? Because as I was reading this article, I'm like, That's why I didn't wanna do this five years ago because there was just this messaging.
I might not even been cognizant of where I heard it, who was talking about it, but it was hrs bad. Yeah. It's there. Right? And I am not saying that it, like I said, that it's right for everybody. Everyone has to really check their risk factors. But I, in fact, if it's okay, a little part of my personal story is that I have a blood clotting propensity and any kind of hormone.
Can increase the likelihood of blood clots. So when I switched to a different gynecologist, she did not want to prescribe or re-prescribe up my prescription until I went and saw a hematologist and I went and saw one of the best in the field at UNC Benign hematology and they, he and his fellow met with me.
They were very thorough, talked to me for well over an hour, and when he heard all of my symptoms prior to getting on H R T and also my very w regiment of self-care. He said your risk factor of just overall poor health is much higher, not being on H R T. The fact that you have this Wow blood clotting propensity I is, is minimal compared to the risks you're putting your body in.
If you go where you were before, Hmm. So it is, it, it, it takes research and talking to people who know, but you gotta go looking for people who know. So the H R T, so that's been
Chris McDonald: helpful.
Adina Middleman: It has. Yeah. And, and again, I have a lot of confounding variables. If I were to completely stop it, would I spiral back into that bad place five years ago?
I would hope not, cuz eventually I wanna. But I'll tell you this, I had the prescription ran out maybe six months ago and there was a lapse, and one day I, and I have the patch, transdermal patch, which also decreases the risk of blood clotting. FY I, I didn't, I couldn't change my patch on time one day and I was hot flashing.
So it definitely helps. It helps with that for sure. But the holistic practices of meditation, yoga, I started running during Covid. I really feel like running helped kickstart me back into a good place of sleep, regular therapy. I've been in and out of therapy since my twenties, but I'd never have done it weekly for years, and that helped me kind of get beyond the trauma of all those physical and emotional symptoms.
That happened to me for all those years. Yeah. Cause
Chris McDonald: that had to be so scary for you. Hmm. So what other holistic strategies have you
Adina Middleman: used? So I can't sing yoga's praises enough. Um, my mom, me neither. My mom is a yoga teacher. Right. And I know you're a yoga teacher. My mom is a yoga teacher, so I grew up with yoga.
But you know when your mom does something. Yeah, I know you tend to, you tend to not buy in quite as much as maybe you should. But I started doing that regularly. I also joined. A kind of more alternative yoga class in the past year that uses a combination of tai chi and energy work and meditation all together, which I feel like has helped kind of maintain my calm.
I really think that the meditation piece, which I always said prior to doing it regularly, eh, it's good for other people. My brain is too busy. I can't do it. And then I, and then I started searching for a practice that. Me because we can't just be levitating yogis, unlike Himalayas in silence. That's not how it
Chris McDonald: works here.
No, no, not at all. Yeah. And you said you used the com app. Oh, okay. But you went to a functional doctor too? I
Adina Middleman: did go to a naturopathic doctor and she helped me some. , but she didn't really have the menopause knowledge. She helped kind of balance my pH and brought my anxiety down some, but it was like a lot of piecemealing and a lot of mixed messaging going to different clinicians who didn't holistically know how to help.
And you know, they don't communicate with each other usually either. True. Yeah. Yeah. And I went to, um, I think she was an osteopath. Again, kind of blurry, but she prescribed herbal remedies that I know work. I mean, I've heard people who take five H T P and take GABA and cure their depression, but she had a terrible bit side manner.
and she didn't give me any guidance as to dosing. That's tough part. Anything else part? Yeah. Yeah. And I felt like that did me wrong too. And then I went into this psychotropic journey that did me wrong too. . Yeah.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. That's a lot. I know there's a lot of holistic supplements out there too, but you do have to be careful.
Cause I know I've tried some that didn't work for me and I had bad side effects. And like you said, the, the dosage is just kind of like, Take some here and , maybe increase your dose and kind of go from there. Cause I know I use moringa now. Oh, I've never heard of that. What's that? It's a, it's an herbal supplement that's really helpful and it has like these other, I'm trying to remember this, like this berry in it that's supposed to help hot, hot cheese berry chase berry.
That's what it, that was like something. So there is a lot of different supplements and of course you gotta talk to your healthcare provider before taking any supplements, but absolutely. You know, just researching that, talking to your doctor to figure out what could work for you. Cuz I mean, there are options.
It doesn't mean if you're having bad symptoms that you have to go on h r T right away, you know, you gotta explore and figure that out. But yeah, so it's, it's a journey for.
Adina Middleman: That's a journey. And one thing that I didn't mention that helped me not feel like I was on an island when I was given that messaging from several gynecologists was the book Making Friends with Menopause.
Ooh, that sounds good. Sarah. Sarah Rainer. R a y n o r. And you can buy it on Amazon. It's a easy read. It's small British, they're, they're ahead of the game as far as. About women at this stage, but it breaks things down into small, doable components. It talks about the physical and the emotional and how you know, everybody is different.
And as I read it, I remember thinking, oh, This is what this is. So that's a great book and it actually has a Facebook, um, support group with it. It might be, it might be closed now cuz there were so many members, but it's interesting to hear people in the UK's perspective on their, their mental health and their, their health regarding menopause.
They have much better holistic care, but they can't get access to the hormone replacement. That's what they're going through. Okay.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. Yeah. And just to caution people, so, um, if you go on Facebook or other groups about menopause, that sometimes you're gonna get scared yourself as you read. Yes. be careful.
Adina Middleman: Absolutely. Yes. You can go rabbit hole. I had to, I had to step back. Yeah. At certain things. Yeah. At any kind of Facebook group. Right. You think it Or, or Googling anything.
Chris McDonald: Absolutely. So just being caution. But I mean the good news, like I've gone on some groups, it was just nice to have that universality of phew, I'm not alone in this.
And it's good that we can have these open discussions in this place cuz I don't know about you, but I would not feel comfortable, like in my social media, personal, to post anything about my symptoms. Mm-hmm. , it wouldn't feel safe to me. So I think if you can find a safe place or safe people to talk with.
Adina Middleman: Right. And that really, if, if there's anything that's a takeaway from, from what I'm sharing, is find a safe place to talk about it, whether it's with family or girlfriends, or you have a really good relationship with a, a primary care provider or a gynecologist. Ask 'em to do some research if they feel like they're lacking advocate and share because the loneliness and feeling like you're just losing.
And alone is the worst part I think. Exactly. And, and, and Chris, I don't know about you, but as a professional, I work with a lot of middle-aged women. Yes. And it's amazing how they are just baffled when you say, well, how you know, when did you notice this particular anxiety start? Or when have you started feeling a lack of energy?
Are your periods erratic or you, you know, you try to make that connection for them? Or how interesting you're starting to self. a lot more and and not put up with BS from people anymore. Do you know that could be your estrogen weening and you get this wide-eyed look. people don't know. Yeah,
Chris McDonald: true, true. I appreciate that.
So any other advice for women who might be struggling right
Adina Middleman: now that this too shall pass? That you deserve help and you deserve a voice and that our brains are neuroplastic and our bodies are shifting. and not everybody has what I had, but even though I went through a really hard time, I'm coming out of it and I'm feeling stronger.
I'm still in the journey. I'm not done. But, but we can all help one another. And I think that if we in, in our generation start talking about it more, there might be more changes in the medical field, in the research field, even in the holistic. Yeah, you know, specifically focusing on this stage of life for
Chris McDonald: women.
So keep talking. Agreed. Yes. Keep talking for sure. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Adina. This has been a really helpful discussion.
Adina Middleman: Thank you. I hope that you know, somebody can listen and feel less alone and find their voice.
Chris McDonald: What's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?
Adina Middleman: I'm on Psychology today, so you could always put me in a Dina middleman or I have a website, which is potentially gonna be revamped soon, but it's currently what it is. NH counseling.net.
Chris McDonald: So if somebody wanted to send you an email, they could do that through Psychology Today
Adina Middleman: or NH counseling.net. Yep.
Chris McDonald: sounds good. And this wraps up another episode of the Holistic Counseling Podcast. And listeners, if you haven't grabbed your copy of Self-Care for the counselor, do yourself a favor and get it today. You'll find it. We'll help with you, feel more energized and discover more calm in your day. Go to holistic counseling podcast.com/and resources.
You'll look for the link for my book. It's right there. And again, this is Chris McDonald's sending each one of you much light in love. Till next time, take care. If you're love in this show, will you rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. This can help us to reach more holistic therapists and bring even more impactful guests to the show.
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