Indonesia’s Foreign Minister takes stock of her country’s peacemaking initiatives over the past decade. In this episode, recorded at the Oslo Forum in June 2024, she explains how Indonesia is trying to make a difference in thorny conflicts, from Afghanistan to the Middle East and Myanmar. As the first female foreign minister of the world’s largest Muslim country, Retno Marsudi fervently advocates for the inclusion of women in diplomacy and peace processes. She shares her experience of overcoming frustration and not giving up, especially in mediating protracted conflicts.

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Indonesia was asked to be part of the peace process in Afghanistan. The situation changed after Taliban came into Kabul, but we never withdrew our involvement or our engagement. So that's why now we are in the close contact with the de facto authorities, not necessarily recognise them, because listening, engaging is very important in mediation.

Welcome to the Mediator’s Studio, a podcast about peacemakers, bringing you stories from behind the scenes. I'm your host, Adam Cooper. I'm at the Oslo Forum, which started out as a small gathering in 2003 and is now entering its third decade, bringing together some of the world's leading figures in peacemaking. Participants from around the world are here to discuss the major conflicts of our day, from Gaza to Myanmar, Sudan, Afghanistan, and Ukraine. My guest today has, for the last ten years, served as the Foreign Minister of Indonesia. A career diplomat, she has held ambassadorial posts to the Netherlands, to Norway, and to Iceland. Her ministerial tenure has seen growing tensions in the South China Sea, a deepening crisis in Myanmar, and one of the most destructive wars the Middle East has ever seen. Your excellency, Retno Marsudi, welcome to the Mediator's Studio.

Thank you. Thank you very much, Adam, for having me.

It's wonderful to have you here. Allow me to begin with your formative years and to give our listeners a sense of you and your values. The eldest of five children, you were born in the sixties to parents who worked in education, and you graduated from university in Yogyakarta, majoring in International Relations. What was it about your upbringing that made you interested in foreign relations?

First of all, congratulations for the Oslo Forum, the 21st year of the Oslo Forum. I am always glad to be back to Oslo. I'm coming from a very modest family, but my family always put education as priority. And then, every day I watched TV, I watched how diplomats work. And at that time, it started in my mind to be a diplomat. So, that is actually the first thing that I started to build my dream to be a diplomat. So that's why when I was graduated from the high school, I immediately registered in the Gadjah Mada University at the International Relations. Because to be a diplomat, we have a big networking, traveling part is good, but sometimes is very challenging as well. But an open minded. I mean, if you are a diplomat, it means that you have to have an open-minded perspective. And by being a career diplomat, I have a lot of friends around the world. So, it is a very simple reason, because I want to have friends, as many as possible. But at the same time, I want to contribute, especially now. I mean, there are so many conflicts, and I want to contribute to bring peace in this world.

And you've become a real champion for women's involvement in peace and security. In your own career, did you face challenges in rising up to hold the position you now have as Foreign Minister?

You know, I am the first female Foreign Minister in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world. The question that sometimes came to me is: Do you feel any difficulty being the first female Foreign Minister in the largest Muslim country? And I said no, because, you know, the surrounding, the environment, the working environment, the family, they are all supported me to be what I want to be. And it is my commitment at the ministry to build a good environment for women to work. So that's why Indonesia is one of the countries who is on the forefront when it comes to the issue of Women, Peace and Security. We want to see more women to be mediators and negotiators. So that's why I think it's about four years ago I initiated to establish Southeast Asia women negotiators and mediators.

Well, you've been a real leading figure and inspiration in that regard, but I'd like to move to the present and to the conflict that's been on our televisions on an almost daily basis, Gaza. First of all, take us to the 7 October last year and the attack on southern Israel. Where were you when you heard the news and what were your first thoughts?

I was in Jakarta. So, of course, every each of us was shocked. I said that the tense will be increasing. And immediately I talked with my team: "Please look at the situation closely".

You knew it would have major consequences.

Yes, major consequences. And look what Indonesia can do, because we know that the 7 October event did not come at a vacuum situation. We talk about justice, we talk about basic rights of Palestine, which have been neglected for 70 years. So that's why when we want to address the Palestinian issue, we have to address the root causes of the issue, that is the independence of Palestine. So that's why I mentioned in the Forum that I appreciated it very much, the way that Norway, Spain and Ireland recognised the state of Palestine. This is very important for the people of Palestine.

And we'll talk about some of those root causes and how they can be addressed in a minute. But you use the phrase what Indonesia can do, and I want to ask about that. You know, there's intense diplomacy on the situation in Gaza at the moment. How do you see the challenge for Indonesia specifically as a mid-sized power to find a space to make a difference on the world's most thorny conflict?

Well, of course, Indonesia does not involve directly in the mediation itself. You know the US, Qatar, Egypt, the neighbouring countries are more involved on the mediation itself, but it doesn't mean that we can sit back and relax. Peacebuilding is very important and that is where Indonesia wants to contribute. For example, I mentioned in the Forum, what about the humanitarian assistance? After all, when we talk about people, we should put this in our priorities of attention. So unhindered humanitarian assistance is very important, and Indonesia did whatever we can to assist, to help the Palestinian people on the humanitarian needs. And then, number two, supporting Palestinians to build their statehood. Recognition is very important. The membership in the UN is also very important, and Indonesia is one of the countries that became member of the OIC contact group. So, I travel to many countries to convince them, to lobby them to recognise Palestine, because recognition for Palestine, the state of Palestine, is very important. So that's why we will do whatever we can to help the Palestinians and to solve the issue itself, the root causes. Because without the independence of Palestine, I don't think that stability will materialise in the Middle East.

You've talked about humanitarian assistance, and you've talked about the sort of recognition for Palestinian statehood. What about the long-term solutions that are necessary for peace? You know, many people are pessimistic about the prospects for peace. Do you see your work as laying the foundation for something which might seem unlikely now, but as necessary preparation for a future peace process?

It's very interesting. I want to share with you about the meeting that have been taking place in Brussels, where the Foreign Minister of Norway and I myself were there. That is actually the meeting between the OIC contact group with the EU plus other European countries. And one of the topics of discussion is about the implementation of two-state solution, plus, of course, the humanitarian recognition. So let me focus on the implementation of the two-state solution. You asked about what will be the long-term solution. The long-term solution is peace and two state solution, because it's very unfortunate that one side started to mention no more two-state solution. What does it mean and where the Palestinians should go? So, that's why we have to be very firm when we say that two-state solution is the only feasible solution where the two countries live side by side in peaceful.

You mentioned humanitarian assistance. Indonesian organisations built a hospital in Gaza, which Indonesians also funded, and which was inaugurated nearly ten years ago. But early in the current conflict, the Israeli army reportedly surrounded it and turned it into a military base. What state is the hospital in now?

It's not in function to the max that the hospital was in the past, because it was attacked in November. And we communicated with Egypt and others, that basically Indonesia is ready to contribute a floating hospital to help the people of Gaza. And now the government also decided to bring and treat patients from Gaza. Of course, the nitty gritty, the details, is very complicated, but let us see the idea. The idea is we are ready to help the people of Gaza, to treat them. So basically, we want to help.

Last question on Gaza perhaps. The US doesn't support currently your vision of recognising Palestinian statehood. What are you doing about that specifically?

I will keep talking with the US and other countries who do not recognise Palestine, because I think that is the best time, the best way to do if we really want to see the two-state solution materialised.

Let's move to Afghanistan, a country which I know has been firmly on your radar. Could you tell us about your first visit to Afghanistan and also the first time you started to engage with the Taliban specifically?

My first visit to Kabul, I think that was in 2017, because Indonesia was asked to be part of the peace process in Afghanistan. But the situation changed after Taliban came into Kabul. But we never withdrew our involvement or our engagement with the Afghan issue. So that's why now we are in close contact with the de facto authorities, not necessarily recognise them, but we are in the contact, because listening, engaging is very important in mediation, and that is what Indonesia does.

And tell me what you think that engagement with the de facto authorities the Taliban can practically achieve?

Because we knew them even during the previous government in Afghanistan. So, I knew them years ago.

And you have a personal relationship with some of them?

Yeah, I have a personal communication with them and last year, when I was here in Oslo, I met them, and we discussed about what can Indonesia do for the people. And one of the results of the discussion last year is on the need of Afghanistan to have the polio vaccine, because Afghanistan is one of the two countries that still encounter endemic of polio. And Indonesia already sent 10 million doses of polio vaccine. It's done. And now we are on the stage of preparing the compared notes on the madrasa curricula. This is to address the issue of women and education.

Which is an issue which has been very controversial and difficult to work on.

Yes, it is difficult. And Indonesia would like to try again and again.

Yeah. And so how do you advocate for girls’ rights and education vis-à-vis the Taliban?

It's very important. So, in every communication, I always mention about how important it is to give equal rights for women to education and also to other activities, social, working activities. I said, look, I'm a Muslim, and I'm coming from the largest Muslim population. So, when we talk about the women's right, equal rights of women to education, it is not an issue of western countries, but it is our issue, the human being issue. And tell Indonesia, tell me what we can do. Because, you know, of course, there are some issues related to their tradition and others, but it doesn't mean that they have to deny the right of a woman to education. So, I'm still in the process of communicating with them. But the message is very consistent. Equal right for women to education.

Let's talk about Myanmar at the time of the coup in 2021, you already had a lot of diplomatic experience in the country, trying to help with the democratic transition, also advocating on behalf of the Rohingya population. How did you draw on the relationships you developed before the coup? In the diplomacy that Indonesia undertook during its chairmanship of ASEAN last year.

Before the coup, Myanmar was a democratic country. And it is very much their effort to bring Myanmar to be a democratic country. So, they enjoyed democracy in the last five years. Then the coup happened. And then, of course, as the ASEAN family, it was the initiative of my president to bring the family in one table and discuss what the ASEAN can help. So that's why the extraordinary summit was taking place in Jakarta. And then Indonesia initiated and agreed by all ASEAN, of course, on the five points of consensus. With the presence of the military junta. It means that the junta also agree with the five points of consensus.

That five-point consensus, Minister, has been quite hard to implement in practice. Do you feel that ASEAN's credibility as a conflict resolution body is on the line?

No, because there is some pressure for ASEAN to leave the five points of consensus. And even some said that why we shouldn't bring the junta back to the ASEAN meeting. We said that there's nothing wrong with the five points of consensus. We want to help them, but again, it's up to them, because that is their issue. They have to solve their problem. What the ASEAN can do is to facilitate their communication. So that's why under the Indonesian chairmanship, we had more than 200 engagements. We talked to every each of them. And the question, number one question is, are you willing to talk to each other?

You know, one of the big questions is the willingness of different stakeholders in Myanmar to talk between themselves and engagement with the imprisoned state councillor, Aung San Suu Kyi. Where do you stand on that question?

Look, any engagement with any stakeholders, of course Daw Aung Suu Kyi is a very prominent figure in Myanmar. It's good. But nevertheless, we have to engage others because Myanmar is a very fragmented country and it's very difficult to make them to talk to each other. Can you imagine if in a country we know there are so many stakeholders and every, each of them, they don't talk to each other? So, building the statehood of Myanmar is very important. And this is what ASEAN would like to help. We don't want to intervene because non-intervention is the principle of ASEAN. But as a family, we want to help Myanmar to solve their problem, to solve their crisis. Because if the crisis continues, it will affect the neighbourhood, it will affect Southeast Asia, and it will not be good for everybody.

Let's end with a few reflections on your career. You're coming to your final months as Foreign Minister, and you've probably played a more active role trying to resolve conflict than any of your predecessors. What do you think your legacy will be?

As Indonesian, I mean, if people ask me about what is your legacy? I said, I don't know. The number of conflicts is not declining but increasing. The complexity of the conflict, it's much more compared to years ago. So, every country has to be responsible to contribute to resolve the conflict, to the peacebuilding. And Indonesia, I think we are more than ready to contribute.

You travel around the world engaging with many governments. Part of diplomacy is sharing your ideas while your interlocutor disagrees with you. But when lives are on the line and you see a government that clearly does not have peace as an objective, how do you personally deal with the frustration of your advice maybe not being heeded?

I'm lucky because I'm a woman. So, I try to use my communication, especially. I mean, the personal communication. I try to build as strong as possible the personal communication. Of course, I mean, the issue of Myanmar, for example. After working hard for one year, we are not able to bring them together at one table. You will feel frustrated, right? But for us, okay, because we understand that to reach a peace, it takes a long time, but we never give up because we want to talk to them again and again. And I think we want to see that more women should play a bigger role on the mediation, on the negotiation.

And I want to close this interview by asking you a final question inspired by that. You know, when I spoke with one of my young colleagues from Southeast Asia, and she heard that I'd be interviewing you, she was extremely excited. And she said, you have to ask her about women in politics. And, you know, she was concerned that it was, you know, still very male dominated in the region. So, my question is, what advice and encouragement would you give to young women who aspire to a career in diplomacy or peacemaking but feel discouraged by sexism? And what would you say to the men who uphold that patriarchal system?

For the women I always mention, never give up. Chase your dream. Materialise your dream. Of course, it needs hardworking, but it will be rewarded to work hard, to chase your dream and never give up. And for the men, give us equal opportunity.

Is that what you've told kind of chauvinistic leaders who've challenged you? You've got to make space. You've got to listen to that.

Yes. So let us be a good partner, male and female.

Well, on that note, we must close. Your Excellency, Retno Marsudi, thank you so much for being my guest in the Mediator's Studio.

Thank you very much, Adam.

Thank you.

And there we end this edition of the Mediator’s Studio. To get more episodes as they come out, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We always love to hear from you. So, if Retno Marsudi's career in diplomacy has inspired any thoughts or questions, please get in touch via the listener survey in the show notes, on our website, or do drop me a message on Twitter at @adamtalkspeace. The Mediator’s Studio is an Oslo Forum podcast brought to you by the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue and the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our managing editor is Christina Buchhold and the producer is Chris Gunness. Research for this episode was by Oscar Eschenbrenner. Big thanks also to Ly Buiduong and Giles Pitts for their support. I hope you'll join me for the next edition. Until then, from Losby Gods in Norway, this is Adam Cooper saying goodbye and thanks for listening.