One of the most difficult challenges we face in life is losing someone we love. We all go through grief at some point. This necessary process allows us to express the pain we feel after loss. Healthy grieving helps us come to terms with what happened and move forward in life. This episode, featuring Ellis Goldstein, is a conversation between two people who have experienced bitter loss. They discuss topics including:

·     The role of community in grief

·     How loss changed their view of God

·     How to grieve with hope

·     Why it is important to grieve

(gentle music)

- [Mitch Glaser] Shalom, this is Mitch Glaser

with Chosen People Ministries.

I know that you're concerned

about what's happening in the Ukraine right now.

Russia has been on the attack and it seems unrelenting.

So many people are suffering,

and among that group of people who are suffering

are well over 200,000 Ukrainian Jewish people.

We've already sent aid, food, water, all sorts of materials,

as well as Chosen People missionaries

to the border between Ukraine and Poland,

and we're having an active ministry there right now.

We're also in touch with the 10 or 12 congregations

that we work with in Ukraine itself,

and we've been sending in a little bit of funding

where we can get it in, by keeping in touch with them.

So, please pray for the Ukraine

and for Chosen People Ministries.

(somber music)

(cheerful percussive music)

- [Narrator] Welcome to "Our Hope,"

a production of Chosen People Ministries.

On this podcast, you will hear inspiring testimonies,

learn about Messianic apologetics,

and discover God's plan for Israel and you.

Wherever you're listening,

we hope you lean in, listen closely, and be blessed.

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(serene music)

- [Abe] One of the most difficult things we face in life

is losing someone we love.

When disease, accident, or violence claims the life

of a loved one who means so much to us,

it is tempting to surrender to despair.

Grief is a process

that allows us to express the pain and sorrow

we rightly feel after loss.

Grieving takes time, and looks different for everyone.

Healthy grief helps us process our loss

and move forward in life.

It is a time to discover ways to remember our loved one

and figure out how to go on without that person.

Scripture gives us hope that Jesus overcame death.

All who trust in him as Messiah have eternal life.

Still, separation from those we love is difficult.

In this episode, we speak with Ellis Goldstein,

who has endured some deeply painful losses.

Together, we will see how we can grieve with hope.

I'm Abe Vasquez.

Welcome to "Our Hope."

(somber music)

Ellis, you're here with us.

I don't even want to do a fluffy intro

or anything else between what we spoke.

I just want to sort of get to it.

But before we do,

'cause this will be, I think, a difficult episode,

let's start off with something on a fun note. (chuckles)

We ask every first-time guest, what is your favorite food?

- [Ellis] That's easy.

Chicken Parmesan.

- [Abe] Chicken Parmesan, yes. (chuckles)

- [Ellis] I had it, and I had it last night.

(Ellis and Abe laughing)

- [Abe] I love chicken Parmesan,

and occasionally, I love veal Parmesan.

Well, thank you so much for being here with us,

as we're going to talk about grief,

and I know you've experienced some recent things

on top of what's in your "I Found Shalom" testimony,

and we'll dive into that a little bit more.

But I'd just love to know a little bit of your story.

What is your story?

When did you encounter Yeshua?

- [Ellis] Abe, you know, my background is very similar.

I was born in 1950.

Many Jewish kids were born during that time.

Many of my friends' grandparents

had immigrated in the early 1900s from Eastern Europe.

Mine came from Lithuania, Romanian and Russia.

And my background was, I think, pretty typical.

Grew up in a conservative Jewish background.

My family was not very observant,

and, do you know, the junior high and high school I went to,

a significant part of the population were Jewish,

and so, when we were off for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur,

the other kids, it was just a small group of kids

that were still in the school, from what I understand.

But my background, where I went to Hebrew school,

it was really focused on preparing for my bar mitzvah.

The sad part is that I didn't even understand

the why for the bar mitzvah.

It was just memorizing parts, is what it was.

And it was something, of course,

that my parents were proud of,

but it was not something

that there was a whole lot of understanding.

It wasn't something that was really discussed,

even in Hebrew school.

And so, I continued going to Hebrew school

after my bar mitzvah,

but there was a time that I just walked away from it,

as a lot of other Jewish kids did, too.

And I became involved in athletics in high school,

and I was just looking for something

to give me some significance.

And I ran cross country and track and field

and I became the leading distance runner in the high school.

- [Abe] Wow.

- [Ellis] But when I graduated,

I went to Penn State to study architecture.

I was going to continue to compete cross country,

but I just lost the desire to do it

and just sort of settled in a complacency.

I can't remember if it was my freshman year

or it was my sophomore year, but there was a poster,

and I actually remember that when I went to school in '68,

this is the time that a lot of radical things

were happening on college campuses,

the Vietnam War was full-blown.

The Jesus movement gained prominence.

And there was this wanted poster that I saw,

black-and-white picture of Jesus

advertising something on campus,

and my instant response was, "I don't want that."

(Abe chuckles)

And then sometime later,

there was a meeting in my dormitory,

a small meeting in the dorm, and it was a study break.

I cannot give you a rational reason

why I went to this meeting.

(Abe chuckles)

It was called How To Be A Christian Without Being Religious.

I was not interested in Jesus. (Abe laughing)

I was not interested in Christianity.

It was anathema to me as it is to a number of Jewish people.

And so, I can't give you a good reason

why I went down there, apart for the sovereignty of God.

And it was the first time

I heard people talk about a personal relationship with God.

Someone talked about how to have this relationship with God.

And I was pretty arrogant and stood up

and then said that you can get to God in your own way,

but over the next five months or so, or seven months,

I met off and on with one of the men on campus,

and we would go over Messianic prophecy

from the Old Testament.

If you don't know anything about Jesus, which I didn't,

I did not recognize what those prophecies,

who they were talking about.

You know, people say you can recognize them,

but if you don't know anything about Jesus,

I couldn't recognize it.

And there was another meeting I went to on campus,

and it was on March 3rd, 1970.

And it's this meeting, first part of it was pretty informal

and students were sharing just some of the things

that God had done in their lives,

and I don't even remember the specifics at that time.

But the way that I described this,

is I literally had an Apostle Paul experience.

I didn't fall off my horse, though.

It wasn't, "I see a bright light,"

it wasn't that.

- [Abe] You fell out of your car.

- [Ellis] Yes. (laughs)

(Abe and Ellis laughing)

And I have to say, Ellis is being at clubs again,

but anyway. (Abe laughing)

But all of a sudden, I went from not understanding

to instant understanding. - [Abe] Wow.

- [Ellis] It was a supernatural experience

is the best way I can explain it.

Other students were sharing some things,

and all of a sudden, I understood that Jesus was my Messiah,

and I embraced him at that point and I felt compelled

that I needed to be the next person to stand up

and say that I had trusted Jesus as my Messiah.

- [Abe] Wow. - [Ellis] And so I did.

The room was silent, I sat down,

my palms were sweating, and I was wondering,

"What have you just done?" (Abe chuckling)

I tell people about this book,

and I found it on the internet and bought it.

It's called, "What's A Nice Jewish Boy Like You

Doing In The First Baptist Church?"

And that's sort of how I felt. (Abe laughing)

And that's where it began on March 3rd, 1970

at about 7:30 in the evening.

- [Abe] March 3rd. - That's when it happened.

- [Abe] Wow, we just passed the anniversary.

- [Ellis] Yep.

- [Abe] Wow, wow, that's amazing.

Man, so much good stuff in there!

So grateful that you had that moment.

And I think we're going to sort of talk a little bit more

about how that moment maybe impacted the rest of your life

with the stuff we're talking about.

So, let's dive in.

How did you experience loss?

And let's sort of walk through, I guess,

the multiple moments in your life

where you've experienced loss. - [Ellis] Sure.

The first loss I experienced,

and it's significant for a teenager,

it wasn't death, it was rejection by family.

And that was my first loss.

And when I told my father and mother about my faith,

my father said, "We'll never attend your wedding."

- [Abe] Wow.

- [Ellis] And I wasn't dating anybody,

but he wanted to let me know.

And so, that was the first time

I experienced loss that consequential.

But the loss that we're talking about today

occurred years later.

Colleen and I had a little girl,

born in 1976, (gentle music)

and I can remember holding her in the hospital,

and she went from my palm to the crook in my elbow.

She was small.

And Heather was an incredible child.

(gentle music)

There's so many things I could say about her.

One of the greatest privileges that we had

was that she had invited Jesus to be her Messiah

when she was 2 1/2 years old.

(Abe chuckles)

But there was evidence that filed that as the years went on.

Heather was an intelligent, loving child

that we did not have some of the issues

that a lot of parents have with teenagers.

As she grew, she was a child who would talk to her friends

about her relationship with the Lord.

In January 19th, 1994, she was driving to school,

and probably about a mile or mile and a half from her house,

Heather was in a single car accident.

I could describe the events around it,

but I won't need to at this point.

- [Abe] No.

- [Ellis] If you wanted me to, I could,

but to this day, and that was 28 years ago,

I can picture it to this day,

we knew something was wrong.

Found out from the school that she was not in her classes.

I was running out through the kitchen,

hit the garage door button.

And as the door was going up,

I saw a car pulling into the driveway,

and it was a state police car.

And I can still vaguely see him,

and as he told me what had happened,

that he gave me her driver's license.

(somber music)

She was killed,

and I'm pretty sure it was instantly in that accident.

To say that it changed our world and changed everything,

is an understatement.

It even seems trite to say it that way.

But it did.

One of the things that you say is you cry out, why,

and you try to make sense of it, which you can't,

but what God said to me,

and that He has repeated that, over and over again,

over all of these years is,

"You don't understand, but will you trust me?"

And I had to make a decision if I was going to say yes to that.

And I did.

It did take away the pain,

but what I made the decision to do was to lean into the Lord

instead of pushing Him away.

Did change how difficult it was,

didn't change when I went to church,

and I just couldn't sing the hymns.

And it was so hard for me to engage in any kind of worship.

It just forever affected me that way.

And so, that was the first loss.

- [Abe] I think you and I are similar,

because we both have lost daughters.

I lost my daughter when she was only 37 weeks in the womb.

We don't have an explanation why.

We probably won't ever find out why,

which kind of makes it a little bit more frustrating, I think.

But I think you and I are sort of on two sides of the story,

where you've experienced life, you had life with Heather,

and then I sort of am on the side of,

I had all these hopes and dreams and I had this fantasy

of what life would have been like with Ariah.

And so, I think, both are different, both are painful.

But, man, is it hard!

It's hard to lose a child.

So, I'm sorry, Ellis.

Why don't you continue and keep telling us your story?

- [Ellis] Abe, what you're talking about,

is that losing a child is probably the hardest loss.

And I realize that people might like to debate it,

but you talk with counselors and they will tell you

that losing a child is the hardest loss.

And it is something that sticks with you

for the rest of your life,

because in losing a child,

you're losing the future, which you dreamed of.

To this day, sometimes around the holidays,

when I see pictures of families,

and I see them over the years, 'cause I'm older now,

and I've watched them grow from one person to two people,

to three, to four, however many children they have now,

as grandchildren.

And that still hurts to this day, that God made a choice

that we would not have grandchildren.

We wanted to have two children,

but Colleen had two miscarriages,

and so we just had Heather.

You cry out and say, "Well, how come You..."

I remember there was this accident that involved some kid

going 100 miles an hour on the highway,

and the kid survived.

I mean, it's irrational why I do this,

but I remember the time and I said, "Why him?"

You know, "Why not Heather?"

- [Abe] I go through that same thought process

of just hearing the horror stories

of what mothers do to some children.

I say, "Why is this fair?"

You know?

We wanted a child and we were going to care for her,

we were preparing a home for her.

And meanwhile, these horror stories are happening,

parents mistreating their children

or just tossing them out like garbage, you know?

Why is that fair?

I totally understand.

- [Ellis] One of the things that did happen over time

is I realized that the discussion with God

about, this isn't fair, I realized, went nowhere.

And the reason is that the effect of the fall,

the effect of sin, as it tainted all mankind,

that everything in life, it goes sideways.

And it makes no sense.

And then, over the years,

I had to come to a place where I said,

"There are things that don't make sense.

And, God, I don't understand them, but I will accept them.

And I don't like it at all, but I will accept them,

because I know You are who You say You are."

Fast forward to 2017,

and Colleen was having a little bit of difficulty

with her throat.

And so, she went to ear, nose and throat people, doctor,

and they came up with something,

but it really didn't seem to be helpful.

And we were living in a temporary place and we were moving,

and we thought, the place we were living in,

we thought maybe there's some things environmentally there

that were causing this problem,

let's see what happens.

So, we're moving into a house

and it had just all hardwood floors and it didn't have rugs.

Let's see what happens.

Well, it didn't clear up, and she pursued some more doctors.

And then, I got the diagnosis that it was ALS,

Lou Gehrig disease, which is a death sentence.

Colleen was amazing.

She accepted it.

And I did too, but she did a better job of accepting it.

But if you know anybody who has it,

I mean, there're many diseases which are ugly.

This one is especially ugly

as you begin to lose all motor control,

all you can do is just move your eyes.

And it can last a shorter time or a longer time.

It ended up where Colleen lived 11 months,

which was pretty short.

- [Abe] Wow, that is-

- [Ellis] And she was having some trouble breathing,

and the doctor suggested that I take her,

there was a wonderful hospice type of hospital

that I took Colleen to,

just expecting for them to do what they could

to make her comfortable,

'cause Colleen had decided on palliative care.

And they gave her something which helped her,

she was doing much better, and then I asked the doctor,

I don't know if it was that day or the next day.

And I said, "When can I take her home?"

And the doctor said, "She won't be leaving here."

You know, to absorb that,

because I went there thinking this would be temporary,

just a few days, I really didn't know the length of time,

but it seemed she was doing better.

And then, it quickly turned around

where it got worse and worse and worse.

And so, that was on a Monday, when I took her in,

and then about three o'clock, early Wednesday morning,

I hadn't gone home and I had stayed there,

and I fell asleep in the chair beside her.

And then two nurses came in, her attendants,

they woke me up, and they said that she was gone.

I was upset that I wasn't awake when that happened.

And I remember just wondering, "What do I do?"

Later that day, I had to make,

I think, one of the hardest things,

we had to do this for Heather also,

it's that when you have to make arrangements,

- [Abe] Ugh, yes.

- [Ellis] and whether it's a hospital

or some other facility,

they give you a period of time,

saying, you have to make your decisions

by such and such a time.

- [Abe] Can I just say?

- [Ellis] Go ahead, go ahead.

- [Abe] Ariah was our firstborn,

she will always be our firstborn,

but the first action I took as a father

was signing her death certificate.

And that is always the most painful memory for me,

signing that.

Because she's in the world, she's not really in the world.

And that's the first thing I had to do as a dad.

We think about loss a lot,

and you hear people lose people and all this,

but people don't realize the process

of, like, the arrangements is so painful,

figuring out, God, the casket, you know?

How small that casket was at her funeral.

You know, doing those little things

that you shouldn't do as parents.

And so, yeah, I totally feel for you.

Those arrangements, those are painful periods

that community needs to rally

around those who are experiencing grief and loss,

and remember, like, "Hey, we'll be with you

in these moments where you need to arrange things."

Because it's honestly the hardest part.

- [Ellis] Oh, no, you're right.

I mean, that takes me back to when Heather died,

and we had to find a cemetery.

- [Abe] Yeah.

- [Ellis] And Abe, what happened was,

we went to one cemetery and gave 'em our address,

we were living in Orlando at that time,

and said, "Orlando, Florida."

And he said, "You live outside

of Incorporated Orange County" - [Abe] Oh, my gosh.

- [Ellis] And he said, "You can't use this cemetery."

And so, it was a terrible...

Our pastor was with us,

and people helped us find what we needed,

but to be there and experience,

"We're sorry, but you don't live in Orlando."

"I do live in Orlando, that's what my address is."

But, I mean, I understand that.

And I remember choosing the casket,

like you're talking about.

It's just a horrible experience to have to do that.

One of the things I was really fortunate, Abe.

I mean, Abe, feel free to ask other questions

and for us to engage in.

It was one of the things that happened.

Within two days of Colleen's death,

I had friends, two men that I'm extremely close to,

flew up to where we were living.

At that time, we were living in North Carolina.

Flew up just to be there with me.

And I remember that I had forgotten

all the things you think you have to do,

and one of them was,

maybe you experienced something like this,

is that I said, "Oh, I should have called so and so,"

and my friend, Steve, said to me,

"There are no should-haves at this time."

And that has been something

that I have used over and over again with people

in times of grief or other difficulties they have,

is that there're no should-haves right now.

It's not an issue of right or wrong

when it comes to, you should have called this person,

that person, it's not a right or wrong thing.

And sometimes, I think, in grief,

there's things we think, "We need to do, we need to do,"

and you can't do it all.

But you really do need friends.

- [Abe] And, folks, those who are listening,

typically with "Our Hope," in this podcast,

we have a list of questions

that we ask the people we're interviewing.

And so, I have a set of questions that I want to ask Ellis,

but when we're talking about grief,

it has to be just organic.

When you're talking with someone

who's going through this stuff,

you just need to let them speak,

and not have your prepared questions. (chuckling)

So, this is an organic episode.

We're just going to let it happen, and I may ask a question,

but this is a conversation,

and this is really an example

of how we just need to be present with one another

when we're going through these moments,

and just let it happen.

There's no pressure.

There's no pressure to say a word.

You think of the story of Job,

his friends got it right, the first part,

and then they messed everything up when they spoke.

(Abe laughing)

They would've stayed quiet the whole book,

it would've been great.

(Abe laughing)

I just wanted to just throw that out there.

Ellis, I do have a question,

because Amy, my wife, and I,

we experienced this when we lost Ariah.

It was pretty dramatic, going from the office.

She called me when I was in the office,

and said, "Abe, you need to get over here right now.

There's no heartbeat."

And I literally just froze, and I was like,

"Okay, this is a mistake,

so I'm going to go over there and fix it."

(Abe laughing)

That's what was going on in my head.

And I'm running, I'm praying,

getting to the subway, running to the doctor's office.

And I walk into the room and I see my wife's face,

and I knew instantly, that was it.

Still pleading with the staff to show me the ultrasound.

And I think back and I feel so horrible

that I made my wife go through that again,

to see no heartbeat, but I wasn't there.

It was the first appointment that I missed, by the way.

So, that's another level of regret.

I hadn't missed anything else.

And so, my wife was there alone when this news broke.

And so, when I saw her face,

we were crying, we were hysterical, I was angry,

but I don't know what happened.

It had to have been God, but I looked at her, and I said,

"Amy, we cannot let this rock our marriage."

We were just married a year or two.

And this had just happened, and I said,

"We cannot let this move and shake us.

We need to put our stake in the ground,

and we cannot be shaken right now."

She looked at me and she nodded and hugged me,

and I can honestly say, that was the moment

that sort of changed the trajectory,

because it could have easily gone the other way.

We were such a young couple

that something like this could have easily rocked us.

I'm just curious,

did something similar happen to you and Colleen

when you lost Heather?

- [Ellis] Let me just make one comment

about something you said,

then I'll answer your other question.

It's, Abe, one of the things that you and Amy did,

what's so significant is that you were intentional

towards each other in what you were going to do.

Sometimes people make promises to each other,

which fall by the wayside.

You made a heart decision

to be intentional about your marriage,

which is just so significant.

And I think a lot of people don't do that.

Colleen and I, when we experienced the loss of Heather,

we talked about it, but we grieved separately.

And I think that one of the things,

that if I was to do it again,

one of the things that I would want to do differently

was to make sure that we really engaged

with a community of people, with close friends.

- [Abe] Why is that?

I'm curious.

- [Ellis] The Scriptures tell us,

and people use this as a reason for attending services,

but the verse in Hebrews,

it says that when we assemble together,

we are to encourage each other as the Day draws nearer.

And that is not just about coming together

for a worship service.

This is a practice

that needs to take place on a regular basis,

and I've experienced not doing it.

I mean, I had some deeply close friends,

but as a couple, we did not do well in engaging that way.

And that made it much more difficult.

And if I could do it again, I would change how we did that.

- [Abe] I just have a question.

You have a Jewish background.

Did any of the Jewish mourning practices

sort of find itself in your grieving process?

Did you go there?

- [Ellis] No.

That's really an excellent question.

And I'm going to say, no.

I would say that, what we did have, in those practices,

what you have is you'll have family that will come,

and people that will come and visit.

We had that aspect of it,

and I especially had that when Colleen died.

The difference is that you can have people come together,

but without a faith in Yeshua, there's no hope.

That's the difference.

It's that all there is, (serene music)

without a relationship with the Lord,

it is just emptiness.

There is no hope at all.

And one of the things that we have in our faith, in Yeshua,

is that He is with us always.

That He never leaves us, never forsakes us.

That it's not just a faith in nothing.

It's a faith in something

that is very substantive and real.

And that's the difference.

And so, I would say, yes,

one aspect that was there was people coming alongside us.

But one of the things that Colleen and I did have,

it was that relationship with the Lord,

and that's what kept us going.

Because one of those things that for us,

for Colleen and me, that was so important,

was that Heather knew the Lord,

and we knew that she was instantly present with Him.

You know, when my parents died,

as far as I knew, they didn't know the Lord.

And that's the type of grief that there's no hope there.

But when you know the Lord,

there is that hope that this is only part of our life,

that our life continues into eternity.

So, in answering your question

is that there are some aspects of that practice

which could be helpful,

but without the anchoring in the relationship with the Lord,

that we have hope for eternity,

that this is only part of our life, where it continues on,

and then be able to know

that Heather was instantly present with the Lord.

And that when my parents died,

that did not happen, to the best of my knowledge.

- [Abe] Ellis, what does grieving responsibly look like?

- [Ellis] That's an excellent question.

And, Abe, people can choose

to do all sorts of things to avoid.

Abe, tell me a person that wakes up each morning and says,

"Today, I look forward to experiencing the worst pain

that you can ever experience." (Abe laughing)

- [Abe] Right.

- [Ellis] Nobody in their right mind wants to do that.

And so, we each can have different ways

of trying to avoid the pain.

At one point, I watched television, just at night,

and I would stay up late, watching television.

It was just a distraction.

It works with pain.

But I think, grieving responsibly,

one of the words I wrote down as I was thinking about today,

is that good grief takes takes work.

You have to work at it.

It is not something that will just happen.

You have to intentionally make some decisions.

And so, some of the decisions I did make,

and I did make them during the time when Heather died,

and then I continued to do it

even more so after Colleen died,

and that was that I had just a few people

that I continued to connect with.

You could call it accountability, but it really wasn't that.

It was, I chose these people

so that I could process with them,

and they didn't give me opinions,

they did it the right way.

They listened to me.

And that's what I chose to do.

One of the other things that I chose to do,

and I don't think this was available when Heather died,

but it was when Colleen,

is I went to eight-week or 12-week,

I can't remember the number of weeks,

but it was GriefShare.

It's basically a program

to cover all the aspects of grief that you go through,

and you're doing it in community

with others who have experienced it,

and discuss it with them.

And it is such a healthy thing to do.

Now, it could be painful, in terms of not wanting to do it,

but sometimes what you've got to do is,

because you don't want to do it, doesn't mean, don't do it.

And so, I did that a couple years after Colleen died,

I did that, but I never did that after Heather did.

I wish Colleen and I had done that together.

- [Abe] Amy and I, we did that a few months after,

and I have to say,

it was probably one of the best things for us,

and I think, for me as well.

See, my wife, she was pregnant.

She was pregnant for nine months

and she endured all the physical trauma.

I endured sort of the psychological and emotional trauma

of, like, all my hopes and dreams are gone, right?

But my wife went through a very physical pain.

Her body reminded her that she was pregnant.

She had to go through the physical healing process,

not just emotional,

but her body was wanting to nurture a baby.

She went through that.

But I think, for me, as the non-birthing parent,

to be with other men who have gone through this as well,

other couples who have gone through this,

I think it was really encouraging for me

to be with other men.

There's a guy that was in the group

that we're still good friends today.

They're actually five minutes from us,

they're our neighbors now.

But you just find community

with people who have gone through the same thing.

And, Ellis, I feel so comfortable with you

because I think we subconsciously get each other

without even having to say anything.

Maybe a few years ago before this happened to me,

I couldn't say that,

but it's like I recognize myself in you

because of what we've gone through together,

in our own journeys.

And so, when you start talking with other people

who have gone through the same thing,

you realize, "Ah, I'm safe with them."

(laughing) You know?

- [Ellis] And that's it.

You talked about finding people that you're safe with.

Men have great difficulty in expressing their emotions,

and, Abe, one of the things that I made a decision to do,

and it started with Heather,

'cause what I do in my ministries

is I teach and train other people

that are involved in ministry.

And one of the things that I do

in almost all the training that I do, is I tell my story.

And I made a decision 28 years ago

that I would be transparent about how I was doing

and about what I was experiencing

with the death of my daughter.

And then, when Colleen died, I did the same thing.

And so, what that did is,

people ask me, "Is that hard for you to do?"

And it is not hard for me to do.

Are there hard moments?

Yes, but is it hard?

No.

It's that I began to see that what people are looking for,

first of all, I found that for me,

it was helping me express.

God had given me an avenue

on how express what I was experiencing.

And I found that for others,

it had a significant impact on them.

For those who experienced loss,

that I decided that I would be a person

who would make himself vulnerable.

And I continue to do that.

I've had one man in particular that I've known for decades,

but he has walked with me all the way through these years.

He calls me almost every week, just to see how I'm doing.

And there has never been any judgment from him.

And I'm sure I probably have said some really dumb thing

to your ears. (Abe laughing)

You know, in my grieving. (laughing)

- [Abe] Yeah.

- [Ellis] But he just listens to me,

- [Abe] That's amazing.

- [Ellis] and just checks in with me.

Now, that is a friend.

Job could have used a person like that.

- [Abe] Yeah.

- [Ellis] Instead of those who decided to give him advice.

- [Abe] Ellis, you know, grief, it never really goes away.

I remember, I have a handful of moments

where I'm just going through my day,

and all of a sudden, bam, it just hits you.

I remember driving one day, and just, oh, my God,

and just grief, like, whew!

Like, a dark cloud just came over me

and I couldn't get out of it.

And I had to just call my wife and just cry.

And those moments happen.

They happen less and less, but they do still pop up.

So, what do you do in these moments?

I'm sure it's happened to you.

And how do you find hope in that grief?

- [Ellis] Yeah.

Early on, when Heather died,

GriefShare calls it being ambushed,

that this comes out of nowhere. (Abe laughing)

- [Abe] That's the right word. (laughing)

- [Ellis] You know, you are just not expecting it.

- [Abe] Yeah.

- [Ellis] And how I handle it,

and I started doing this in the beginning,

and I can't tell you how many years it went,

but it went for quite a long time,

where the intensity was so bad, or so difficult,

I felt like I just needed to hang on.

But I made a decision.

I made a decision that I would make no major decisions

during that time.

- [Abe] Hmm, that was great.

- [Ellis] That I would make no stupid decisions.

When Heather died,

I wrestled with what's the purpose of living, of going on.

I made the decision

that I would not make any decisions like that

while I was in the midst of that extreme pain.

Over the years, the aspects of that grief have subsided,

but there are still times where it will hit me.

Today what I do, sometimes what I'll do when it hits me,

I will text my friend, Steve,

and I'll tell him about it.

One of the things I had asked the Lord

is, would He allow me to get married again?

And He gave me this incredible woman, Karen,

who lost her husband 11 years ago,

and she understands loss.

And so, one of the things that we do

is we can talk about it.

And I know that she understands.

I was just putting it away.

I'd taken out some old family photo albums.

I had pictures of Colleen and Heather,

and as I just showed Karen my past,

and there was a moment at the end

that there was just great sadness.

But what I was so grateful for

is that I had a person who understood,

because she has experienced great loss,

and God has used her to bring great comfort to me.

Now, my friend, Steve, has brought great comfort to me.

And sometimes, people say

that if you haven't experienced loss,

you need to find somebody who has experienced loss.

I have found that God has some people

who have not experienced the same kind of loss,

but He has given them a depth

of understanding and compassion,

and if you can't find somebody

who has experienced that kind of loss

that you can really click with, it is okay,

'cause there are people who you can connect with

that God has, whether you want to say He has gifted them,

I don't know if that's what it is,

but He's given them a depth of understanding,

and that it works, and that's what has helped me.

- [Abe] I have a two-parted question for you.

- [Ellis] Okay. - We're sort of wrapping up,

but why don't you talk us through what happened recently,

if you're comfortable?

You sort of described how you felt toward God

and the situation that happened.

I'm curious, one, how do you see God now,

after all these years?

And then, in the midst of this most recent situation,

how did you maybe respond?

- [Ellis] Abe, it is so good to talk to you.

And I'm grateful

that just hearing your story ministers to me.

Two months after Karen and I were married,

and we were so certain, and are certain,

of how God brought us together,

and we've been able to minister to each other

in the grief that we've had,

and experiencing a joy

that we never knew that we could experience again.

- [Abe] What year is this that you got married?

- [Ellis] We got married just last year

in June. - [Abe] 2021?

- [Ellis] Yeah. - [Abe] Okay.

- [Ellis] Yeah.

And Karen had lost her husband 11 years before that.

And so, she had had more experience,

she'd had 11 years of living without her spouse,

and I had only had about 2 1/2 years when we got married.

But two months after we were married, I was on a zoom call,

and towards the end of it, Karen came in,

and I saw a look on her face,

and I knew that something had happened.

And so, I excused myself from the call,

I just walked away from it.

Karen had a 44-year-old daughter, Kristen,

and told me, she just said, "Kristen is dead."

All I could do is I just embraced her and held her.

I started to cry out to the Lord, "Not again."

It's like, "God, haven't You done enough?

Won't You just stop?"

And so, I had wanted to say that,

but I stopped myself from saying that,

because one of the things, for me, that has happened,

is that, will you not accept?

Only accept the good and not the bad from the Word.

And when God asked me, will I trust Him,

this was where it happened again.

Will I trust You with what just happened?

And Kristen was autistic,

but high-functioning and lived on her own,

and she just died suddenly, and it was without explanation.

We never knew what happened.

It was just natural causes.

Where Karen and I both saw God's incredible grace and love

is that Karen did not have to go through this alone.

That He allowed us to be married for two months

before that happened.

And so that I was able to bring comfort to her

'cause of having experienced the loss of a child.

This is different.

My daughter was 17 1/2 when she died.

Kristen has lived a lot longer.

Kristen was just a year younger

than my daughter, Heather, would've been.

- [Abe] Wow.

- [Ellis] And what was hard for me is I had no grandchildren

and there was a growing affection

that God had given me towards Kristen,

even though I had just known her for a short time.

And she and I got along really well.

And that was growing.

I think the hard thing, for me,

was, "God why would You do this?

Why would You take away what I had?

Starting this new relationship, and now that's gone."

Karen does have a son and daughter-in-law,

and they have two children,

and the two kids call me, Papaji.

(Abe laughing)

And so, God has blessed me with that.

But that was really hard, losing Kristen.

- [Abe] Yeah.

Ellis, I think we need to stop

because everyone listening probably got to the bottom

of their tissue box.

(Ellis laughing)

(Abe laughing)

But, wow.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

I just feel like I need to (inhales deeply)

(exhales sharply) take a breath.

This was incredible.

Thank you for your vulnerability.

Thank you for your trust in God.

I know that's a weird thing to say,

but hearing you and seeing you gives me hope

that I can keep going on when I face grief unexpectedly,

when I get ambushed with grief, as you said.

I'm just so grateful for your testimony,

and really,

as painful as these experiences have been for you,

I am grateful for your life.

I am grateful for everything that I've heard today.

So, thank you.

Thank you for being with us, and, just thank you, Ellis.

This was amazing and healing for me as well.

- [Ellis] Can I leave you with one verse

that has really stuck with me?

- [Abe] Please, yes.

- [Ellis] When apostle Paul wrote in the book of Romans,

and this verse has really stood out to me,

where it says in verse 38 and 39,

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life,

neither angels nor demons,

neither the present nor the future,

nor any powers, neither height nor depth,

nor anything else in all creation,

will be able to separate us from the love of God

that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And for me, that has been significant.

When the Lord said, "I'm with you always,

that He will never leave me,

and that nothing can separate me from His love,

and nothing can separate Karen's late husband, Jack,

Kristen, Colleen, and Heather from the Lord.

Nothing.

That they are with the Lord

because they had all placed their trust in Yeshua.

(somber music)

- [Abe] Isaiah 53, verse three calls Jesus,

"A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief."

Whatever pain and loss we endure, we are not alone.

Jesus, our Messiah,

fully experienced the suffering of a broken world.

He mourned death.

He faced rejection and betrayal.

He even laid down His own life

so that death would be no more.

He died, rose again, and ascended into heaven.

Because of His sacrifice, we can have eternal life.

When the Messiah returns, He will reign from Jerusalem

and bring suffering to an end.

As it is written in Revelation chapter 21,

"And there will no longer be any death.

There will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain.

The first things have passed away."

(somber music)

If you've enjoyed this episode,

please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

and et us know how this podcast

has affected and impacted you.

You can also share it on social media

with your friends and family.

Thank you for listening

to this week's episode of "Our Hope,"

featuring Ellis Goldstein.

This episode was produced by Nicole Vacca and Grace Swee,

and written by myself and Rachel Larsen,

and edited by Grace Swee.

This episode was also created thanks to Dr. Mitch Glaser,

Kieran Bautista, and Jann Bautista.

I'm Abe Vazquez.

Until next time.

(somber music)

- [Narrator] Thanks for listening to "Our hope."

If you like our show and want to know more,

check out ourhopepodcast.com or chosenpeople.com.

You can also support our podcast

by giving today at ourhopepodcast.com/support.

See you next time.

(somber music)

(hopeful music)

- [Announcer] During these difficult times,

we know how hard it is to hold on to hope.

And we want you to know

that Chosen People Ministries is here for you.

If you have any prayer request,

our prayer team is standing by to receive them.

You can submit your request at chosenpeople.com/pray.

Again, that's chosenpeople.com/pray.