In this episode of How To Take The Lead we talk about trust and what this means as a leader. Trust is something we discuss a lot in the leadership space and we explore what we really mean by trust. 

In this episode we share our thoughts, experiences and learning, including:

·       03:50 – the neuroscience of trust and how this translates to the workplace

·       08:12 – how do you build trust as a leader

·       13:30 – trust and performance 

·       18:45 – how to measure high trust

·       21:15 – can you rebuild trust as a leader?

·       29:55 – how to build trust

As always we share our top takeaways and in this episode we cover authenticity, doing what you say you will and recognise that building trust takes time.

We reference Simon Sinek’s conversation about trust and performance. You can view it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJdXjtSnZTI

If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast. We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting, using #HowToTakeTheLead

-----------------------------------

You can find out more about Lee Griffith via www.sundayskies.com and about Carrie-Ann Wade at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Get social with us via:

Lee on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.

Carrie-Ann on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.

Mentioned in this episode:

Join the How to Take the Lead community

We're now on substack. Join a community of people who want to lead their own way. Get extra content and behind the episode discussions, take part in 'ask us anything' bonus episodes and a new leadership book club, plus much more. Visit www.howtotakethelead.com to sign up.

I was waiting for the next bit and I was like, no, she's finished.

I love it.

That's all you need to do.

Hello, welcome to this episode of how to take lead episode 11.

How has that happened, Lee?

I know this is our longest run ever of a take the lead style episode.

isn't.

I know, I can't believe it.

We've gone from Instagram lives to a podcast, to almost

being on 12 episodes of it.

I'm feeling a bit astounded by how quickly this is all whizzed by.

But I'm not astounded by how much we've had to talk about.

No, no, that's the thing.

And we, we could easily just keep going and going and going, but we

will need a break at some point.

We will need a break.

Other people probably might like a break from us for a

bit, but people need not fear.

I'm sure we'll be back for series two, cuz plenty is come up in what we've

talked about that we want to explore even further, but for today's episode I

just wanted to explore a little bit the notion of trust in leadership and what

that really means why it's important.

But it's something that we do talk about a lot.

When we have conversations about what it means to be a leader.

We talk about building trusted relationships with people, whether

that's your own team, whether that's your organization, whether

that's your, your clients that need to really develop and nurture and

build those trusted relationships.

And we also talk a lot, I think not just you and I and how to take the

lead, but when other people talk about leadership about the need for people

to have trust in you as a leader.

So I guess it's on that basis that I pose the first exploratory question,

which is what do we really mean when we talk about trust and leadership and

more importantly, why is it important?

Yeah.

I talk a lot about connection when I'm doing my work just normally

day to day stuff that I do, I talk a lot about connection.

For me, connection and trust are hand in hand.

You can't have one without the other.

And I think that's why it's so important in leadership, because for me as a

leader, it's how you get things done.

So it's how you take people with you as a leader.

And you only take people with you if they feel connected to you and they only

feel connected to you if they trust you.

So, of course you can get delivery and stuff in other ways.

But that is likely to only be for a time it's likely to be messy.

It's likely to be storing up problems for the future.

And so for me, I think you can't have a productive high performing.

However you want to, to look at it organization without

having an element of trust.

I think we also know that if staff trust their leaders, then we know

they're likely to be more loyal to the leader in the organization.

They're likely to give more to the role and they're likely to give

more to the organization as well.

So, so fostering a culture of trust is a really important way

to build the organization whole.

There was a study done that's cited quite a lot by professor Paul Zach

around the neuroscience of trust.

And he was saying that compared to low trust companies, people at high

trust companies reported 74% less stress, 106% more energy at work,

50% higher productivity, 13%, fewer sick days, 76% more engagement.

29% more life satisfaction, not just work satisfaction life.

And 40% less burnout.

So there's so many elements of what you're trying to achieve in the workplace

gets achieved by building trust.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness.

They're really powerful statistics aren't they?

And I there's a bit of me that hopes you're reading those out Lee

and that you didn't just have all of those memorized in your head.

Cause I was likely blimey this.

This is full on, but, but you are absolutely right.

It's so linked to the culture of the organization that

you are creating, isn't it?

When we think about building that trust as a leader and it is having that positive

culture where people trust you, but also that you trust people to do their job.

I think that's a big thing as well, that people feel empowered and

therefore more able to perform well and carry out what their role is

because they are, are trusted to do so.

And that will have that impact that you've talked about on performance productivity,

staff morale sickness, retention as well.

So I think that is a really important part of it.

It's not just about people trusting in you as a leader, but it's about

you trusting in other people that they are there to do the right thing

and that you are empowering them to get on with it and do their job.

And I'm sure we've all had those experiences of being micromanaged by

leaders who clearly find it very difficult to trust people for whatever reason.

And I guess there's lots of drivers for that.

People can be wanting to be very controlling and think they're the only

people that know how to do something, for example, but by not putting that

trust in other people to do the job that they're there actually to do,

you are really doing a disservice to them and you're not helping people to

develop and grow either as individuals in the workplace or elsewhere.

So, yeah, I think as we are talking, it's really clear that, that whole notion

and concept of trust in leadership is a really important one and has potentially

huge impacts for your whole organization.

I mean, you are completely right.

Trust goes both ways.

It isn't just about people trusting you.

It is about you demonstrating trust.

And I think that micromanaging is a really good example.

I think you've also got things like, perhaps if you are someone who might

bitch a bit about members of your team to other members of your team, that breaks

trust of people, because they'll see.

Well, if they're saying this about that person, what they're saying about me.

If you are not standing up and protecting your team, perhaps, or if you are taking

all the credit for what your team have done, all of those are examples of where

you are breaking your trust in team.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and that erodes doesn't it?

That sense of being part of a team.

So yeah, absolutely important.

So, I know we'll, as we carry on through this conversation, keep

reflecting back on some of this and the point you made it goes two ways.

Trust is a reciprocal thing.

And often something that has to be developed over time.

It's not something that happens overnight.

I think back to like, if you are a new leader, stepping into an organization, you

have to prove to people why they should trust you and why they should engage

with you and, and want to come with you on that journey towards your ultimate

vision, because they don't know you.

So you can't expect to step in somewhere and be like, I'm new.

You must all trust me.

And I trust you and, and let's just, you know, move on happy ever after it,

it is something that you need to build.

It's a cliche, but that's that sentiment of it takes a

long time to build trust, but can take moments to break trust.

And I think one of the issues that some leaders have is that they think trust

equates with power and seniority, and that there's a given expectation that

people will trust you because, or should trust you because you are more senior.

And I, I think that's a, almost a myth that we need to break from the off.

And we've touched on that.

You've said it takes a long time to build that trust only seconds to,

to break it, but I'm interested in your thoughts, Lee, about how you do

go about building trust as a leader.

Like, we've said it's linked to culture, it's very much linked to values and

the values that you demonstrate and the values of your organization and others.

If you are in that leadership space.

What is it that you have to do?

What is it that you have to demonstrate to help start building that trust?

I think for me, it starts with integrity and demonstrating integrity,

linked very closely to your values, but it's that doing what you say and what

you believe in, and actually taking actions on the things that you talk about.

So if you are inauthentic, people are going to see through that and the

trust and that connection will go.

I think we look at it from a communications perspective, we've seen

those leaders who have people write stuff for them or manage their social

media accounts for them or whatever.

If they don't get a tone of voice that's right or consistent with the person that

people encounter in meetings, or when they're walking down a corridor, then

you've lost trust and connection again, so there's something about integrity,

authenticity in the way that you behave.

I hate the word soft skills, you know that by now I'm sure, but I think if

you are working on those areas, so empathy, listening, communication,

as we've mentioned, all of those elements, all contribute to trust

in some way and building trust.

And I think we've slightly touched on this already, but that sense of you've

got to take your ego out of the equation.

So you need to center what you say and what you do around what people need what

other people need and not make it all about you and all of those come together

over time and with consistency, then people will start to build that trust.

It's that know, like, trust isn't it.

You talk about that from a, from a marketing sense, they

get got to get to know you.

They've got to get to like you, and then the trust will come.

Yeah, I think I'm just reflecting on what you're saying around

some of that, there's definitely something for me about actually role modeling,

the sorts of behaviors that you would like to see in your organization.

And you're taking the actions that you would like other

people to be able to take.

So for me, that is an important part of it.

It's that taking action.

I think it is the bit that people want to see.

They don't want leaders who say all of the right things in the room,

but then like nothing actually ever happens the right things never then

seem to have action taken upon them.

So there's definitely something for me around.

Demonstrating through action that you mean what you've said.

And I think that's an important part of building that trust as a leader, for sure.

And I think for me, in terms of, building trust, it is I guess

that acceptance of it taking time.

And that you talked about the know, like trust, not everybody's gonna necessarily

like you, not everybody's gonna want to be your friend and you have to be able

to accept that, but that doesn't mean that you can't take the right actions

to enable those people to trust you.

And I think that's quite an important part of that journey as a leader.

And, and I liked what you said about you have to take the ego out of it because

you have to remind yourself that, that as a leader, you are not there for you.

You are there for everybody else.

And I think there are certain types of leaders who forget that,

and it is all about raising their own profile, supporting their

own ego, ego driven activities.

And I think it's really important if you want people to trust you for you to be

able to demonstrate that you are there for them, you are there to lead them.

You're not there just to lead yourself.

So, definitely something important to reflect on.

We've mentioned as well in conversation already about performance and kind of

high performing teams and how trust and culture and having that culture

of trust in your organization has an impact on productivity and performance.

But I just wanted to explore that from a slightly different angle, I guess,

and probably more about individuals.

So we've often seen in business over the years, lots of metrics for measuring

performance and high performance, low performance, lots of processes that get

put in place to deal with low performance.

But I think it's something that we reward or that we have traditionally

rewarded a lot as leaders, people who are high performers get rewarded, but

I'm quite interested in that relationship between performance and trust.

And I'm not gonna do this justice.

It's a Simon Sinek and I don't know if anybody will have ever seen this

clip already on YouTube will pop it in the show notes, but Simon

Sinek talks about performance and trust in individuals and in leaders.

And he gives an example around Navy seals where he's worked with

Navy seals to talk to them about.

What they determine as more important around that performance and trust piece.

And what has come out of some of what Simon Sinek says is that when you have

individuals who are very high performance, but actually very low trust that that

can lead to a sense of toxic leadership.

And again, I guess, In terms of what we've talked about.

That's like, you know, what you in it for is that leader just there to perform

and deliver for their own purpose.

Then they're not building that connection and that trust with people.

But he also said when he spoke with Navy seals, that in terms of the people

that they most want in their team, the people that they most want to have

on their side are people who are high trust but actually their performance

doesn't necessarily need to be high.

It could be medium level performance, but very high trust.

And for them, they feel like those people are the most gifted natural

leaders, because they are able to take people with them on that journey,

build those trusted relationships.

So I'm just interested in your take on the performance versus trust

or trust and performance dynamic when it comes to leadership.

It's a really interesting finding.

And I suppose if I think about when we've talked about leadership

previously and the fact that you don't need to be the expert in everything,

it's about building the team, that's got the different skills and stuff.

I suppose it resonates with that concept, doesn't it?

That you don't have to, if high performance equals high

skill, for example, that doesn't need to be a prerequisite to

be a leader, but trust does.

I do think there's something for me though, about low performance

doesn't breed trust either.

I know I would be less trusting of someone if I didn't think they had the

head in the game in the right way or were incompetent or something like that.

So there is a balance isn't there, there is a level of what's acceptable

in terms of performance, but I agree.

It doesn't necessarily need to be that super high performance.

And I wonder you mentioned about the metrics and people Measuring

performance and stuff like that.

And I suppose performance in and of itself is a measure of trust because over

time, yes, you can have short, sharp interventions with someone who's low

trust that might get things done, but over time that wouldn't be sustainable

and you'll, see low performance.

You'll see low morale.

You'll see all of the things that we spoke about at the beginning.

So for me, if you've got sustained, Good performance in your organization

and you've got good morale, good customer feedback, good operational

performance, all of that type of stuff.

I do think that shows a sign, that things are going the right

way when it comes to trust.

Yeah, I think that's sort of partly answered what my next question

might have been, which is around if we can measure for performance,

how do you measure for trust?

But they're probably so linked over time that actually they are indicators

of each other because organizationally, I think you would, like you say, you

wouldn't necessarily get that sustained high performance if there wasn't a

level of trust within the organization.

I, I guess.

The bit for me in terms of what I was thinking is, is

there something missing there?

Is it as cut and dry as performance and trust are the only two things

that you need to, to kind of be thinking of when you're thinking

about kind of how colleagues feel about working in the organization and

how much they trust you as a leader?

And, and I think there's a couple of interesting ways to look at it.

Isn't there.

Is it about your performance as a leader or is it about the performance of

everyone else in the organization and, and, and how does trust impact on that?

I guess, but I think you've, I, I quite liked your insight about

looking at it over a period of time.

It's that level of sustainability.

It can't just be about those short, sharp interventions, but I guess I'm, I'm not

sure, you know, on that point that Simon Sinek raised around, you know, business.

Seem to value high performance and reward it.

I'm not sure how you would reward high trust and how you would

recognize that that, that, that was there as part of your organization.

I think you could, whilst it's not perhaps explicitly expressed.

I do think that there would be.

Measures in your organization that shows that you've got high trust.

So it could be I don't know, looking at your staff survey results.

So how do people feel about working there or working for their manager?

A leader is a sign of if they don't wanna work there or they don't, they don't

wanna work with their, their line manager.

The trust is probably something could play there.

So I think things like that are really good measures.

I think there's also then.

If your customer satisfaction's low or, or customer experience is low, or you

get bad feedback around areas of that, then there's a trust issue potentially

between your staff and your customers.

So then again, is that a bigger issue organizationally?

Because your staff aren't given a great experience to the people

that they are there to serve.

That's easy for me to say so I don't think you necessarily need to create

an extra metric that is what is the trust level in this organization?

I think there are metrics that you can already use.

It goes back to that thing we always say about triangulation.

You probably needed a range of different metrics and measure it over

time and it give you a really good picture around how people are feeling.

I think trust also, again, is situational.

So people might say, well yeah, I trust you to do this, but I

wouldn't trust you to do that.

So it depends on what the scenario is as well.

Yeah.

And I'm sure we'll probably touch on some of that the, in the next bit of

the conversation about that situational piece, because I guess there's something

for me when we talk about trust and leadership around what happens.

Building trust why it's important.

How do you do that as a leader and how that link between trust and

performance has an impact on teams?

So you're thinking about how you're building a trusted team, but there's

a bit of the picture for me that hopefully isn't something that everyone

who's a leader will experience, but that some people probably will.

And we can probably name some individuals that are very prominent in the public eye

at the moment that are going through this.

But what do you do when you've lost that trust as a leader?

You know, it might be that you've handled a situation really poorly.

You haven't dealt with a crisis very well, for example, Like what happens

when that trust is gone as a leader and is there a way to rebuild it?

Mm.

I'm just interested in your thoughts around that Lee.

mean, I mean, it's is very situational.

I think it depends on what's happened and your response to what's happened

are the key indicators, aren't they into terms of whether you

lose trust and we can regain trust.

If something bad happens and personally, or as an organization, you're in a

situation where you need to demonstrate a response to that in some way, if

you apologize, you demonstrate you're taking the right actions, your words

match, the actions that you take and you come from a humble place of

learning and forgiveness and all that.

Then I think people can rebuild that trust in you over time, because

you're demonstrating what you've said.

You're going to do.

I think if you are in a bad situation.

And we've seen this with our lovely leaders in government recently, where

you are in a bad situation and you make it worse, cuz you double down on

what's happening and your apologies are inauthentic or you just go and keep

doing the same thing over and over again.

So you're just demonstrating and you actually don't give a shit what

anyone thinks about then it gets to a point, a breaking point where

people go look enough is enough.

You're not demonstrating humility.

You're not demonstrating that you're actually taking this seriously.

You're not demonstrating that you want to see change and therefore, bye bye

mate, we don't wanna see you anymore.

So I, I think it depends on what that situation is.

I think it depends on how you choose to respond to it.

I do think it's possible that you can do really hard things

as a leader and keep trust.

We talk about whether it's mergers, closures, job losses,

all of those types of things, really, really tricky situations.

I think you can manage those effectively as a leader and still keep trust.

But the key to that is that you are communicating.

You're really transparent.

You are listening to people.

You're getting people involved.

You're helping them to understand the bigger picture and all, all of that.

So sometimes when those areas are missing, that's when I think

it's really hard to get back.

And as you're talking there, I'm thinking it's about demonstrating you

mentioned humility, supporting people.

It's about demonstrating all the things that are good

about being a human isn't it.

And being, being compassionate and being able to put yourself

in those other people's shoes.

And while you might not always be able as a leader to make the outcome different,

so you talked about job losses, mergers, you might not be able to make the outcome

any different for whatever reason, usually financially driven, but actually you can

make the person's experience of going through that process a better one for

them that is more compassionate and that is more tailored to supporting them.

And I guess I liken that to the example of P and O that happened.

And how terribly as an organization that was handled and how actually all of

those staff members who lost their jobs.

They would've still lost their jobs, but they might have had a

very different view about P and O as an organization, if that situation

had been handled very differently.

So, I guess for me, there is also that link between trust and reputation,

whether that's your organizational reputation or your reputation as a leader.

And you mentioned politics, that's always a place to start when you are looking.

I was gonna say, looking at trust, but I guess looking at leadership,

but, you know, interestingly the current prime minister Boris has been

in that position where his own party has lost trust in him and he's hung

on for as long as he possibly could.

And now we know what the outcome of that is, but even though, you know, in our

conversations, we've often used him as an example of not being a great leader.

There will still be people out there who are in support of him.

So how does that work?

Who just, I dunno whether they forgive, but they just see

it as part of his character.

And they are willing to oversee that for the bigger picture that he

offers, which is a really interesting concept when it comes to trust.

I wonder whether they would feel the same if they were working for him though.

So is it proximity to the person and the relationship that's important?

Yeah.

Again, and that's back to that situational piece.

Isn't it?

What situation are you in?

Maybe they wouldn't feel the same if they were more directly impacted by some of

the decisions that he's made as well.

So, so that, that is quite an interesting one.

Isn't it?

And it is about that character piece, isn't it.

And that likability and, and back to that know, like trust how much you, like

somebody sometimes might outweigh how much you think trust in them is important in

certain situations, but I guess carrying on that example slightly, just to round

off this bit of the discussion for someone as a leader who maybe has lost that

trust in them, in their organization, and perhaps hasn't been able to rebuild that.

And I mentioned that link with reputation.

Can you move on from that?

Where do you go from there and how do you learn from that?

So when you step into your next space, that you're not just continuing and

you're not taking that reputation as somebody who's untrustworthy with you.

Oh, I think that's down to you as an individual, isn't it?

And the inner work that you are willing to do.

So if you are genuinely want to move on and you are gonna take the time to learn,

you're gonna take the time to reflect.

You're gonna take the time to make sure you do things differently.

Next time you just will.

If you are someone who actually just doesn't care.

You are not going to, and you are just gonna keep perpetuating the

same scenarios and situations.

And we see that with some leaders where they go from place to place to place.

And it's the same things.

They may be not there very long.

They may get moved on from one organization to another organization

or whatever it might be.

So it does happen, but I would suspect those people are not very,

self-aware not very insightful.

Very ego led.

The bigger question then is for the boards who are recruiting

these individuals, how are they testing for that type of stuff?

How are they testing for how strong a connection they're gonna make with people

and how they're going to build trust?

And I think that links to a previous episode where we've

talked about, and we always use inverted commas, those soft skills.

Haven't we, how do you recruit for people that isn't about their performance

and their skillset in terms of their profession, but is more about how they're

gonna connect with people and build that trust and build those relationships.

And start to impact the culture of the organization.

I'm trying to think of a leadership position where this has

happened, but I can think of lots of celebrities that have fallen from grace.

Fallen in disgrace.

Well, I dunno what the phrase is, but but they've, you know, put up

on a pedestal, something happens.

They lose the trust of people you think, oh, that's it, that's their career shot.

But then they make an almighty comeback and everyone loves them.

And the y're the sweetheart again, so that redemption story is possible.

If you are willing to be authentic own up and do the work.

Yeah.

And again, probably in those scenarios a bit about people's likeability, isn't it?

Because if you really like someone, you root for them more to turn it around and

you want to believe that they're gonna be able to come back from a difficult

time and you want to believe that they're gonna be able to rebuild that trust.

So again, back to that point, that it's reciprocal in terms of it has to go both

ways when you are talking about Trust.

I'm slightly sidetracked there in my head thinking, oh, hope I haven't

got a fall from grace coming and I need to have my own redemption story.

But your tips around thinking about learning from that, I think

is the important part, isn't it.

And sadly, there'll be people who don't want to, because they're not really

that bothered that people don't trust them and somehow can move from role to

role without that really being an issue.

But think then you have to question why you want to be a leader in

the first place, if you're not really that bothered about it.

Are you just a manager of something, a project.

And you're not actually a leader.

Yeah, absolutely.

So we've gone from why is trust important, how you build trust as a leader that link

between performance and trust and whether that's a genuine one that's there or not.

And then that fall from grace, how you rebuild trust or if you even can.

So it's been a quick canter through the concept of trust and leadership,

but an important one, I think, because we talk about it quite a lot.

I feel like we've got to that point in the conversation where we should

share some takeaways and top tips.

So what would yours be?

Lee, if you are a leader, who's thinking about this topic of

trust and how you can build that.

I think let's just keep it really simple.

I think that the starting point of building trust is being authentic

and walking the talk and it is as simple as that, isn't it.

You have really clear, consistent communication.

Do what you say you're gonna do.

And don't get wrapped up in ego.

I love that was so concise.

I was waiting for the next bit and I was like, no, she's finished.

I love it.

That's all you need to do.

And I guess we've said keep it simple, but I think it's recognized that

it takes time and recognize that you will have to put effort in to

build those trusted relationships.

They're not gonna fall into your lap on day one of taking on a

leadership role, but absolutely agree with your top tips Lee.

And I think that's all about acting with integrity as a leader.