The fourth overall pick in the NFL draft often represents a pivotal juncture in a team's trajectory, as evidenced by the illustrious history of players selected in this position. This episode delves into the remarkable legacy of fourth overall picks, highlighting the fact that greatness can be achieved without the burden of being the first selection. From the indomitable prowess of Walter Payton to the defensive genius of Charles Woodson, these individuals have shaped the landscape of the NFL. We meticulously analyze both the celebrated successes and the notorious failures that accompany this coveted draft slot. Join us as we explore the intricate narratives surrounding these players, ultimately affirming that the fourth pick, while fraught with potential peril, has also yielded transformative talents within the annals of football history.

Don't forget to check out and subscribe to the Pigskin Dispatch YouTube channel for additional content and the regular Football History Minute Shorts.

Miss our football by the day of the year podcasts, well, don't, because they can still be found at the Pigskin Dispatch website.

Do you want more football history? Test your Gridiron Knowledge, we feed you Daily with our new FREE activity, The Pigskin Trivia Drive.

Grab a copy of our latest book, "Marooned," on the 1925 Pottsville Maroons NFL franchise saga.

*OR* Grab a copy of our book on Western Pennsylvania football history, "World's Greatest Gridiron Team" on the 1903 Franklin All-Stars

Drop us a line at PigskinDispatch@gmail .com and check out and subscribe to the Pigskin Dispatch YouTube channel.

Contact us directly at PigskinDispatch@Gmail.com

Miss our football by the day of the year podcasts, well, don't because they can still be found at the Pigskin Dispatch website.

In the NFL draft, the first three picks generally get the billboards and the savior labels.

But number four, that's where the draft truly gets dangerous.

From the gridiron dominance of Walter Payton to the lockdown mastery of Charles Woodson, the fourth overall slot is a historic gold mine of hall of Fame legends and franchise altering icons.

Today we're looking back at the players who proved you don't need to be first to be the greatest.

This is a storied legacy of the NFL's drafts.

Fourth and overall picks in history.

We're joined as always by Ed Cleese.

You're in the pig pen pigskin dispatches 32 day countdown starts now with slot number four.

Welcome everybody.

We are in the top four of our countdown and you know, just four days to the National Football League draft.

We are joined again by Ed Cleese to talk about the picks selected at number four.

Ed, welcome back to the pig pen.

Hey Darren, how are you today?

The final four.

The final four, the final frontier.

We're at here as we are Sunday before the Thursday draft starts, round one.

And so what's your, what's your overall look at with the history of the last 40 some years of the the pick number fours in the NFL?

Well, first of all, we're going to be leaving a lot of gold jackets out of my top five, which I think at this point is kind of to be expected.

You would expect as we get closer to number one that we're going to have better players and more hall of Famers.

Like we've talked about that that didn't really occur in our countdown until we get in the early teens and then it seems to have kind of picked up the pace a little bit also.

I was a little surprised on number four.

There weren't quite as many as like there wasn't any colossal busts as I thought I might find recently.

Not a whole lot of names that really stand out to me.

Anthony Richardson is trending one way, Sauce Gardner, current teammates is trending the other way.

And then you have somebody like Kyle Pitts that's maybe kind of in the middle.

So just in recent years we've kind of seen the gamut from teams that are probably very happy with who they picked, selected disappointed, still waiting, you know, for a player to turn the corner.

But that's, you know, recently and nothing, nothing's too significant has stuck out.

But going back in history, plenty significant has stuck out.

Yeah.

So what we did when we started with number with number five in yesterday's pod is we're going to, now that we get to this level, we're going to do a top five busts and a top five best.

And so we'll start with the busts.

And number five, all time fourth overall pick bust is a Super Bowl MVP.

How's that for a contrast?

Wow.

This is a strange case because as you know, Desmond Howard wound up being the MVP of the super bowl for the packers when they beat the Patriots as a punt returner.

He returned a punt for a touchdown.

In that game, I believe he had another really long one, set something up.

He had a phenomenal game, but he was a bust because you don't draft the fourth overall player in the draft to return punts.

And that's essentially all he did.

He had an 11 year career.

He caught 123 passes.

So you do the math.

You know, we're right there at about 10 to 12 catches per season.

And in his last five years he only caught 18 passes.

And he also wasn't a particularly good kick returner.

He just returned punts.

And as somebody that was a fan of the Redskins and was very excited to draft him, I can tell you that he, he belongs on the bus list.

Okay.

I think that's the first time I've ever heard of a Super Bowl MVP being a bust.

Yeah, that cannot, that one game could not save him from where he belongs on this list.

He's had a very nice career in the media, on espn.

So he's, I think he's done quite well for himself.

So I think he's okay with being on my list.

Probably.

A guy that I really didn't remember very well.

And then he was spotted at a nightclub that night in Miami.

And it sounds like right after that he was traded to the Browns.

He got zero.

Then he really got sick.

Yeah, he got really sick.

He got traded to the Browns.

The Browns give him zero carries and he was out of the league.

League.

Oh boy.

Little brown bottle flu maybe.

Yep.

Had a six year career.

Over those six years, only had 13 and a half sacks.

He wound up, and again, he only played six years.

He played for the Bucks, the Oilers and the Cardinals.

So if you're only in the league for six years, you're the fourth overall pick, you're getting passed around like that, it pretty much means that nobody's particularly happy to have you.

He did.

Do you remember the two of those teams were happy with their home city?

Exactly.

You do you remember the Kevin Gilbride, Buddy Ryan fight on the sidelines when they were the Oilers coaches?

When Buddy.

Yeah.

Well, Keith McCants is the guy that broke that up.

So he does have one memorable highlight in his career.

Unfortunately.

He became a police, like a Marine police officer.

He was the first black Marine, like Marine life, like by the ocean, that kind of Marine.

He was like almost like a wildlife officer.

He was the first ever black marine police officer and he unfortunately died of what they think was an apparent drug overdose at age 53.

So kind of a sad postscript, his career.

But I remember him, I remember him getting.

Wearing those creamsicle uniforms.

Uniforms and things just not working out too well.

Okay, all right, who else do you have?

Number two, same position.

We're going to go.

This is just a bust.

He was supposed to, he was like one of those combine freaks, like a physical freak.

He had five career sacks, only two full seasons in Seattle.

Traded to the Raiders for a seventh round pick and it was quickly out of the league.

So, you know, just did not work out one bit.

Yeah, it doesn't sound like it.

All right, who's your top bust?

I, I, you know, I hate talking about the off field stuff, but there's no way to talk about this guy without, and this is an incredible bust.

First of all, his numbers.

He was.06 in his career with a 3 touchdown to 11 interception ratio.

So that's obviously ridiculously terrible.

But that's not the story with him.

He has probably one of the saddest cautionary tales about gambling.

As someone who may or may not like to sometimes partake in wagering, it really is a cautionary tale for anybody to listen to his story because it sounds like it goes all the way back to college.

It sounds like he may have had some cover when he was at Ohio State from handlers and coaches that maybe knew he had a problem and kind of covered it up and didn't let it get out.

There wasn't necessarily like any kind of like fixing games issues, but he did wind up getting suspended for a season by the NFL because he turned in some people.

He was afraid they were going to try to get him to throw games or something like that.

But the long story short sounds like this is a lifelong lifetime in and out of prison, all kinds of trouble, that he just could not shake it.

And he admitted that, you know, he was so distracted early in his career that he had no chance to succeed as a player because he just couldn't shake the ghosts.

So really says it sounds like it.

Honestly, it sounds like it's just continued.

So, like a very rough story.

It's sad.

It stinks.

But yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's a draft bust.

It's definitely, definitely a disease.

Gambling, you know, just like any other disease, it's a bad thing and bad on families, too.

So, yeah, could not shake it.

Could not shake it.

All right, well, let's get into some better news here.

Let's, let's.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The top five is really solid.

And you're gonna say that it's solid because I'm gonna cut.

There's three hall of fame honorable mentions that aren't in it.

Let's take a break for a moment to tell you about a new product so that you can take and put your football knowledge that we feed you each and every day to to the test.

It is the Pigskin trivia drive on pigskindispatch.com you're the quarterback.

You call the shots, choose your play.

Grind it out with a run, pick up steady gains on a short pass, or risk it all with a long pass for a massive chunk of yardage.

It isn't just a quiz, it's a march for glory.

It's the Pigskin Trivia drive.

Remember when the huddle's over, when you picked your play, the faster you answer, the more yards you gain.

Hesitation is the enemy of the end zone.

Keep those chains moving quick.

Cross that yellow line to reset your downs and earn a critical audible.

Stuck on a tough defensive look.

Use those audibles to strip away two wrong answers and find your open receiver.

Watch the play clock.

You've got just 25 seconds to make the read.

Take too long and it's a five yard penalty for delay a game.

It's game action in this stadium.

Your brain is the engine, but the clock is the opponent.

The mission is simple.

Score as many touchdowns as possible in five minutes.

And when the clock hits zero, you, your score hits the global leaderboard.

Are you a bench warmer or a Hall of Famer?

Step up to the line.

Your drive starts now on pigskindispatch.com the trivia drive.

Don't let your football history knowledge go to waste.

Try the pigskin trivia drive on pigskindispatch.com and now let's get back into our program.

There's three hall of Fame honorable mentions that aren't in it.

Edwin James is not in my top five.

Derek Thomas is not in my top five.

Wow.

And Kenny Easley is not in my top five.

So we're talking about three big names right there.

Darren.

Yeah, definitely not make my top five.

Yeah, definitely.

As well.

There's a lot of hall of Famers in the group you're talking about.

So all three of those guys were.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So.

So go ahead.

Number five is a current player.

He's had a 15 year career so far.

It's going pretty strong.

He had a bunch of pro bowls in Washington.

He was a little bit overlooked.

He did have some league suspension issues there.

There was.

He got in a little bit of trouble early in his career.

That probably held him back just a tad.

But then as a 49er, he's just taken off like he got into that Shanahan scheme.

He's a Mauler.

That's probably my number one thing about Trent.

He is a beast.

He's an, you know we a lot of left tackle.

Right.

So we always think great pass protector, which he is.

But he is a road grader, run blocker as well.

He is a dominant force from the ages of 33 to 35.

He was All Pro first team all of those years.

That is really impressive.

I just wrote down Mahler.

That's what I think of when I think of Trent.

He is.

He was.

He probably didn't maximize his gifts in Washington.

A lot of that being not of his own problem.

That's disorder, dysfunctional organization.

But once he got into a good spot in San Francisco, he has cemented his hall of Fame career.

Has a lot of times just a change of scenery and blocking schemes and offensive strategy making makes a big difference because some players are adapted better to play in some schemes than others.

So.

Yep.

And he's, he's been a great fit In San Francisco for sure.

With number four, we're going to stay in the exact same position.

We're going to go a little bit earlier.

We are going to talk gold jacket here.

We're going to have to talk about a Raven, Darren.

Yeah, 12 year career, he was in the Pro bowl and.

Or all.

Probably in all of his seasons, years 2 through 12.

So like his rookie year he wasn't.

Pretty much the best we've ever, you know, and that was in the league at the time.

You know, difficult again to like talk about how do I compare him to Trent?

It's flipping a coin, you know?

You know what I mean?

So I thought they both deserved to be in the top five, just a tad ahead of those other guys I mentioned.

So I made him 4 and 5.

Yeah, definitely a great.

Another great player you're talking about there.

So, yeah, very good blocker.

All right, who do you have at.

Three, at number three?

This is, this is the one that I'm.

I'm going to guess probably surprises some people or sticks out a little bit.

And that's Chris Dolman.

Actually he was taken as a linebacker and he got off to a bit of a slow start.

They transferred, they transitioned him to a defensive end and he exploded.

Now, this is kind of interesting, Darren, because we talked about Joey Browner and we've talked about Keith Millard in our.

That.

That were.

We've spoken about so far.

And Dolman was drafted in 85, so those like mid-80s to late 90s Vikings defenses had hall of Fame level talents.

Now Browner and Millard didn't play long enough.

We talked about that to get there.

Dolman did.

He was not the defensive player of the year because Keith Millard was, who had like 20.

They combined for like 40 sacks between the two of them that season.

And then he had seven, seven more seasons.

Darren.

After his 21 sack season, Dolman had seven more seasons with 11 or more sacks.

He's fifth all time in sacks.

But he was inducted into the hall of Fame.

He got there in time, I believe.

I think he was.

I think he was inducted and before he passed away and got his Got his actual gold jacket.

I think he's one of those probably overlooked Canton guys.

He didn't play for the Vikings his whole career.

He wound up bouncing around a little bit.

Maybe one of those guys that, you know, just didn't stand out quite as much as some of the other edge guys that we think of.

But, man, Dolman was awesome and he was super consistent.

Yeah, definitely.

He was a beast.

And that whole.

It was like the new resurgence of the purple people eaters when those teams with Dolman and Millard and all that,.

They just couldn't get the offense right.

Yeah, a couple of missed kicks and.

Things like that, too.

Yeah.

Kasha.

All right, so who do you have?

2.

Number two might be controversial as well, but I'm gonna stand behind him.

He is a guy that does not have a gold jacket.

I think he will.

Some people think he won't.

And some people might think I'm crazy for putting him over some of the guys that I have him above.

But of course, he was a Charger.

He had zero starts his first two seasons, and then he made every start for the next 15 years.

I love that stat.

You'll notice in doing this exercise, Darren, I'm a little partial to the guys that play, to the guys that are always there.

15 Years, no Ms. Starts.

That's a big deal to me.

And then listen to this, Darren.

12 Out of 13 years, he passed for over 4,000 yards.

12 Out of 13.

8Th all time in yards, 6th all time in touchdowns.

Name the best receiver he ever threw to.

McArdle.

Yeah, right.

I didn't.

I didn't even know.

Yeah, right, exactly.

Now, he did have Antonio Gates, obviously.

Yeah, he did.

For a big part of his career.

He had Tomlinson in the backfield.

Definitely a major help.

But this is a guy that has just produced and produced and produced.

And I think we can both admit in a average at best organization, it's not like they were handing him all of these great tools and keys and stuff.

And he was kind of buried out there in the West Coast.

A lot of the times, you know, it kind of felt like the Chargers were always going 9, 7, 10, and 6.

And I think that Rivers got blamed for some of that, for, like, not reaching the heights.

I know that we judge quarterbacks with rings.

I personally think he is better, clearly better than Eli, the guy that he was traded for on draft night.

That is a big argument because Eli does have the two rings.

Where are Rivers rings?

That's usually what we come back to.

But I look at it, I say Rivers did everything else better.

He did it for longer.

He was far more consistent.

And had he been in a little bit of a better situation, I think he would have been equal to or as even more successful.

Yeah.

Right.

No, you know what, I think you'd have to put Big Ben ahead of Rivers because he does kind of match to the numbers and he got the ring.

So if you want to use that as a tiebreaker, that's fine.

But I'm not going to overlook all of these numbers for Rivers and this incredible consistency when comparing them to some other quarterbacks.

Hey, I mean, I have no problem with him being up there.

I think he, I think it's a good selection at number two, especially when you can be a grandfather and come off your couch and come play in the NFL.

Yeah, what he did last year was pretty impressive.

It really was.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right, so who do you have as your top pick?

You know, number one wasn't that hard.

I waffled a little bit.

He had a career in two acts.

He was.

Both of the acts were excellent.

So he was the defensive rookie of the year and then he had eight years in Oakland and seven years in Green Bay.

So 15 year career almost split right down the middle.

That's a big award because now you're in the, you're, you're in the group now with J.J. watt and Lawrence Taylor and Bruce Smith.

You know, we're talking these names and Woodson is in that group.

He led the league in interceptions twice.

He had 65 in his career.

Scored 11 touchdowns.

You know what put him over the top for me?

Darren?

16Th all time in solo tackles.

So he was doing his thing out on the edge, blowing, you know, taking receivers out of the game, making plays and getting in there, making tackles.

A consistent force.

Won the super bowl with the packers, was, you know, second best player on that team, maybe, maybe even first, you know, so a great, a great player, an incredible pick, and he's number one.

All right, well, I think it's a pretty solid top five.

I think my, my one argument would be, I think that Derek Thomas maybe should have been on There maybe over one of the tackles.

I'm not sure which one.

Take your pick.

You have a guy that played 11 years, nine Pro Bowls, hall of Famer, 126 and a half sacks.

You talk about, you know, consistency.

This guy was on the field a lot for 11 years with the same team.

I think he had one season where he only played 12 games.

Everything else was 15, 16 games.

When I looked at Thomas, what two things kind of put him down the list for me and that would be that he waned a little bit in his career.

His best years were his first four years.

And then I viewed him a little bit as a real pure pass rushing specialist.

He didn't make a lot of plays.

Like we talked about how Terrell Suggs led the NFL all time in tackles for loss in addition to sacks.

Whereas, like, Thomas was more that pure edge rusher.

Now, in terms of that pure edge, there was nobody that was a whole lot better than Derek Thomas.

That's, the guy had seven sacks in one game.

So, I mean, you know, I mean that's, that's, that's incredible.

And it was, he was my last cut of those five.

And yes, you could certainly make an argument to take out.

In all fairness, I don't think tackles for loss were counted until his last year.

That's very possible.

So I just don't remember him being as much of a disruptor as some of the other edge guys because beyond the pass rushing now, like I said, you're taking a list of eight or nine guys that are either in the hall of Fame or will be and you have to make a top five at him.

So, you know, you're going to cut somebody that makes some fan base upset.

But.

And the other thing is, you know, his accident and his death, it was early, you know, he was still kind of going.

So we never really got to see maybe exactly where he would have wound up, which is obviously terrible and very unfortunate.

Well, this is one case, I think maybe just to settle this, because you talk about the last 45, 46 years, I like to look back the whole 90 years of the NFL draft.

Otto Graham was drafted not by the Browns, but by the Detroit Lions that year because the, the Browns weren't part of the league yet.

And he Went off to war.

So I could probably take have an argument for probably six of those guys would be above the five we just talked about in the modern era.

So yes, really some legends, 13 in all hall of Famers with everybody we talked about so far from that.

So we're starting to get in these, keep these consistently big numbers here of hall of Famers at the selection.

Our most popular position drafted has been tackle.

You talked about some pretty good tackles there when you're talking, you know, John Hannah and Jonathan Ogden and Trent Williams, so.

And others.

So that's a pretty good thing.

And our draft stat of the day takes us to the quarterback position and, and of the top 25 quarterbacks with the most career touchdown passes, 15 of them were taken in the first round.

No surprise there.

The other 10 were taken in the second round.

Second, I'm sorry, second was three, third was three, fourth was one, six was one.

Ninth and 12th each had one.

But of the top four quarterbacks there was more taken in round two than there was in round one.

That drew Brees and Brett Favre, second round picks.

Peyton Manning is the only one that stays in that was the first round pick four.

So of course Tom Brady being the other one with the round pick.

So it's just kind of an amazing factor.

You sit there and you think about the quarterbacks being those first round picks and that's true to a certain point.

But there's been some gold in the later rounds too, right?

Yep.

It's a, it was a, it was a great group to look back on.

Yeah, definitely.

Well, it's only going to get better from here because we are going to go to pick number three tomorrow.

As we continue the countdown, get ready for the NFL draft, talk a little bit about some history and some great legendary players.

Ed, we'll talk to you tomorrow.

We'll see you tomorrow, Darren.

That's all the football history we have today, folks.

Join us back tomorrow for more of your football history.

We invite you to check out our website, pigskindispatch.com not only to see the daily football history, but to experience positive football with our many articles on the good people of the game as well as our own football comic strip, kleet marks comics pigskindispatch.com is also on social media outlets, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and don't forget the Pigskin Dispatch YouTube channel to get all of your positive football news and history.

Special thanks to the talents of Mike.

And Gene Monroe, as well as Jason Neff for letting us use their music during our podcast.

This podcast is part of the Sports History Network, your headquarters for the yesteryear of your favorite sport.

You can learn more@sportshistorynetwork.com.