On today's episode, we introduce the PLANTSTRONG by Metabite Corporate Wellness Program, a cutting-edge initiative designed to enhance workplace health through plant-based nutrition and education.

This comprehensive 12-week program aims to make plant-based living more accessible, ultimately helping companies reduce healthcare expenses while boosting employee well-being.

Metabite founders, David Goldman and Michael Quarshie, share their perspectives on how group coaching and community support can foster sustainable dietary changes. Their insights underscore the importance of collective encouragement in achieving lasting lifestyle improvements.

The episode also spotlights the impressive outcomes from our pilot programs, including:

• Notable weight loss
• Improved cholesterol levels among participants
• Increase in productivity
• Increased productivity and job satisfaction
• Sizable cost savings for businesses

Interested in bringing the power of plants into your workplace? Visit liveplantstrong.com to learn more or email us at hello@plantstrong.com.

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Rick Esselstyn: 00:00:00

I'm Rick Esselstyn and you're listening to the Plan Strong podcast.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:00:06

For well over a decade, we have poured ourselves into making plant based living accessible, impactful and appealing for as many people as possible.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:00:18

And we know that our retreats transform lives, but they can't reach everyone.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:00:25

And while our coaching program has tested many tech partners, it wasn't until we connected with today's guests that we found the right fit to bring Planstrong to a broader audience in a way that could truly make waves.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:00:43

Today, I'm excited to unveil the Plan Strong by Metabyte corporate wellness program.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:00:49

This is a comprehensive wellness program that we have been piloting for years with a manufacturing company with results that are frankly quite jaw dropping.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:01:03

Now, this program, what it does is it fast tracks access to plant based nutrition education and all the support that comes with it, with the goal being to spark a movement towards healthier workplaces by integrating plant based wellness into work culture.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:01:22

Now, our vision is to partner with companies that are ready to invest in the health of their people using the power of nutrition as the main driving tool that's going to reduce health care costs, boost energy, reduce sick days, and elevate quality of life.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:01:40

We are here to prove how easy and effective it can be to create a ripple of wellness starting right at work.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:01:49

So I would encourage you pull up a chair and dive into this conversation with David Goldman and Michael Kwashi from Metabyte.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:01:57

And let's discover how we're bringing the power of plants into the workplace.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:02

And who knows, this could be the spark that opens doors to your company.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:09

David and Michael, welcome to the Plan Strong podcast.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:12

It is an absolute pleasure to have you guys here.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:15

And you know, first off, David, where am I talking to you from?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:22

Are you in Bend, Oregon by chance?

David Goldman: 00:02:24

Bend, Oregon, baby.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:26

Bend, Oregon, baby.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:27

And then, Michael, don't tell me you're over in some far off land.

Michael Kwashi: 00:02:32

I am in Helsinki, Finland.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:34

Helsinki, Finland.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:36

Wow.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:37

Incredible.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:39

Well, you guys, I want to share some breaking news with you today.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:42

I know, Michael, or rather David, you're on top of this, but Starbucks just announced today that they're not going to upcharge any longer for non dairy milks in coffee.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:54

How about that?

Michael Kwashi: 00:02:55

That is awesome.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:02:58

I don't go to Star, I don't go to Starbucks, but I know a lot of Starbucks plant based fans are happy about that.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:03:05

What I want to talk about today though is really a pretty phenomenal partnership slash collaboration that Plan Strong has had with you guys, specifically around your company called Metabyte.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:03:21

Before we dive into that, I want to back up for a sec and talk about each one of you.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:03:27

David Goldman, for those of you that don't know, he's a dear friend to Plant Strong.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:03:33

He is no stranger to the Plant based movement.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:03:37

For those of you that want to go back and listen, he was on episode 117 of the Plant Strong podcast.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:03:44

documentary that came out in: 2019

Rick Esselstyn: 00:03:58

And my understanding, David, tell me if, if this is how you see it, is it is now the most watched documentary on the planet with over 200 million views?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:07

Is that what you've heard?

David Goldman: 00:04:08

That's awesome.

David Goldman: 00:04:09

I honestly don't know.

David Goldman: 00:04:11

But what I do know is there was a fantastic firefighter in that film.

David Goldman: 00:04:14

I don't know if you've seen it.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:20

That there's David for you guys, but yes.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:24

So the Game Changers, he's very, very modest about it all.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:27

But, but for the last several years, you have been the director of research at Metabyte, which as I said, is kind of a new partner for Plan Strong.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:39

Michael Korshy.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:41

What a last name.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:42

Where does that last name come from, Michael?

Michael Kwashi: 00:04:44

It's Ghanaian.

Michael Kwashi: 00:04:45

My dad's from Ghana.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:46

Okay, and what did you say it stands for?

Michael Kwashi: 00:04:49

Born on Sunday.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:50

And were you born on Sunday?

Michael Kwashi: 00:04:52

No, I was born on Friday the 13th, but that's okay.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:55

Oh boy.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:55

Oh boy.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:04:57

Now you, you're a former defensive tackle in the NFL turned CEO and you're now a champion for plant based health.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:05:06

So, David and Michael, it is a pleasure to have you guys.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:05:10

Let me give the audience a little backdrop here of, of, of how we kind of came together.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:05:17

So many of you probably know that for many years we have been running experimental programs for companies that are interested in injecting plant based education into their corporate wellness settings.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:05:32

But until very, very recently with Metabyte, we were never able to find a cost effective way to deliver the jaw dropping results that people achieve at our retreats.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:05:46

And David and Michael, we had the pleasure of hosting you at one of our Black Mountain retreats.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:05:50

I think it was two years ago in, in Black Mountain.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:05:53

But we've never been able to figure out a way to do it in a way that's cost effective and also scalable.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:06:01

Ergo, enter you guys and Metabyte.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:06:05

And today what we want to do is we want to unveil a really exciting initiative that all of our listeners will appreciate and potentially it's a, it'll be a good fit to bring this program to your work site.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:06:24

And this can have some potentially next level impact that many of us have been striving for, which is to reach people where they are, equipping them with this life saving information and then supporting them and reaching their goals.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:06:42

So with that, with that as kind of the backdrop, let's dive into you guys.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:06:47

So David, as a nutrition and exercise scientist, I'd love for you to share a bit about your background and what exactly was it that drew you to the field of nutrition and fitness in the first place?

David Goldman: 00:07:03

Yeah, happy to, happy to share that.

David Goldman: 00:07:04

So my background is like you mentioned, it's an exercise science and nutrition.

David Goldman: 00:07:10

So I'm a strength and conditioning specialist, an exercise physiologist, I'm a registered dietitian.

David Goldman: 00:07:16

And so my background is, spans the gamut in obesity research.

David Goldman: 00:07:20

I worked at St.

David Goldman: 00:07:21

Luke's Roosevelt Hospital in New York City.

David Goldman: 00:07:23

It was in Division 1 athletics, NCAA, it was for Columbia University.

David Goldman: 00:07:29

I also taught graduate coursework there.

David Goldman: 00:07:32

I worked in corporate health and fitness at Facebook headquarters in Northern California and I've worked at clinical inpatient, outpatient facilities like True North Health Center.

David Goldman: 00:07:43

I imagine you have some, some listeners who are well familiar with that fantastic establishment.

David Goldman: 00:07:47

So absolutely, yeah, it's a great place.

David Goldman: 00:07:51

Like you mentioned, I was a chief science advisor to the Game Changers.

David Goldman: 00:07:56

That was such a absolutely fantastic, rewarding experience.

David Goldman: 00:08:00

And yeah, I've also been like a Fulbright specialist and visiting researcher now with the University of Helsinki.

David Goldman: 00:08:07

So yeah, I've done a whole bunch of stuff in this space.

David Goldman: 00:08:10

I've really loved it.

David Goldman: 00:08:11

It's been really rewarding and mentioned or you asked what brought me into this field and really it's personal, it's that I used to be obese and I was tormented for it and it was really difficult.

David Goldman: 00:08:25

And so I learned to use exercise and nutrition as tools to reshape my physique, my athletics, my health.

David Goldman: 00:08:34

And it's been really empowering.

David Goldman: 00:08:35

And so now I just take a lot of pleasure and meaning from using nutrition and exercise as tools to support as many people as humanly possible.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:08:45

How old were you when you decided to really like address your personal obesity and jump in?

David Goldman: 00:08:57

Oh, that's a good question.

David Goldman: 00:08:59

I think it was right around the age when I want to say something around junior high school and that was, you know.

David Goldman: 00:09:11

Right.

David Goldman: 00:09:11

That's right.

David Goldman: 00:09:12

When you're, you're so impressionable and, and things that people say can Stick and hit.

David Goldman: 00:09:16

And, and so, yeah, that there was a whole lot of difficulty then.

David Goldman: 00:09:21

And so, yeah, that was the point where I, I decided I want to begin high school and the rest of my adult life and, and with an approach.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:09:31

And then.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:09:32

How old were you when you, when you discovered plant based nutrition?

David Goldman: 00:09:36

So when I was about five years old, my mom read to me a book called Diet for New America.

David Goldman: 00:09:42

And so when I was five, I, I actually became vegetarian.

David Goldman: 00:09:45

I was vegetarian until I was 20 and then I started eating a whole bunch of meat at 20 until I was 27, thinking that I had to do that in order to be athletic, in order to, to be strong and fit and have muscle.

David Goldman: 00:09:59

And I, that's when I went back to graduate school and in that period and I was like, oh, wow, it turns out I was completely mistaken.

David Goldman: 00:10:07

I didn't need these things.

David Goldman: 00:10:08

And in fact, I was actually undermining the things that really matter most to me.

David Goldman: 00:10:12

So at my 27th birthday, so that's 13 years ago now, I was like, game over for me.

David Goldman: 00:10:19

I'm starting a whole new game.

David Goldman: 00:10:20

And that's when I went plant based 100% and I'm not looking back.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:25

Wow, how old are you now?

David Goldman: 00:10:27

40.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:28

40.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:29

Wow.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:29

You're still a spring chicken.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:30

That's great.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:31

Or rather a spring piece of kale.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:33

Curly.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:33

Curly kale.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:35

So I want to ask you this.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:36

So nutrition science, you are, you are like, you are one of, I mean, I talk to people and they say, man, that David Goldman, he is one of the most well read, knowledgeable people in the field of nutrition science of anybody on the planet.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:10:54

And so my question to you is like, you have decided to partner up with Michael and Metabyte and you want to make a difference in corporate wellness.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:11:05

And so why do you think it is that companies are now taking a serious interest in this?

David Goldman: 00:11:12

That's a great question and thank you for the compliment, which I don't feel I deserve, but appreciate that.

David Goldman: 00:11:17

And you mentioned that people have been saying really nice things and just tell my mom I say hi because I feel like she's probably the only one who is saying these things, but I appreciate that.

David Goldman: 00:11:26

Yeah.

David Goldman: 00:11:26

You know, so talking about corporate wellness and plant based eating and I just want to run us back a few years now to a wonderful set of publications.

David Goldman: 00:11:37

This was Dr.

David Goldman: 00:11:38

Neil Barnard from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.

David Goldman: 00:11:42

And he was trailblazing.

David Goldman: 00:11:45

He researched the effects of plant based eating on a whole bunch of really relevant outcomes.

David Goldman: 00:11:53

They did this at Geico at a GEICO location.

David Goldman: 00:11:57

I Think multiple Geico locations.

David Goldman: 00:11:59

And they found that when people were eating this way, a whole food plant based diet, they experienced weight loss, they had drops in LDL cholesterol, the bad cholesterol, they had improvements in their hemoglobin A1C.

David Goldman: 00:12:12

Right.

David Goldman: 00:12:13

This is sort of a measure of blood sugar control.

David Goldman: 00:12:15

And how close or far away are you from diabetes?

David Goldman: 00:12:18

Physical functioning improved.

David Goldman: 00:12:20

So those are a bunch of the physical health components.

David Goldman: 00:12:22

There are also a whole bunch of mental health improvements that people reported, including was better energy, higher quality sleep, more vitality, there was less depression, less anxiety, less fatigue.

David Goldman: 00:12:35

And then also on the actual work front, the productivity side of this, and this is where I'll get right directly to your question, is that people were more productive.

David Goldman: 00:12:45

There were between a 40 and 46% drop in health related impairments in productivity.

David Goldman: 00:12:55

And people had those gains in productivity both at work and at home.

David Goldman: 00:13:00

So when you're asking why are people taking such an interest in, in improving the diet and lifestyle elements of their employees, they recognize there are real serious returns on investment for investing in the people who are investing their time into growing your business and making your venture fruitful.

David Goldman: 00:13:24

So it's really a two way street and the numbers are in and it's compelling.

David Goldman: 00:13:29

And I think people are starting to take notice of this.

David Goldman: 00:13:31

And when they're really forward thinking and looking ahead, so how can I really grow my business in the long term?

David Goldman: 00:13:36

They, they can see these numbers, they, they're impactful.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:13:40

Right.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:13:40

So you specifically, you know, tell me how your research has specifically shaped this wellness program, particularly around group coaching and kind of meeting people where they are.

David Goldman: 00:13:55

Yeah, so the group coaching, it's, it's incredible.

David Goldman: 00:13:57

You know, we have, obviously we have the option to work with groups, we can work with individuals.

David Goldman: 00:14:05

It's so much more compelling, so much more effective to work with groups it seems than individuals.

David Goldman: 00:14:14

When people take on these challenges with comrades, it changes the whole experience.

David Goldman: 00:14:21

People learn from each other and people are inevitably going to struggle and this support goes such a long way.

David Goldman: 00:14:29

So rather than sort of have a, you know, like a parent come in and try to have the kids all do the right thing, rather you orient the kids so that they're motivating each other.

David Goldman: 00:14:39

We, I do this, I have a 10 and 9 year old who I do this with all the time, where if I try to just point them in a particular direction, it's a completely different situation than if they're driving and, and they don't feel alone.

David Goldman: 00:14:53

Sometimes they can look at the health professional and say yeah, but you must have already figured all this out, and I'm just new to this.

David Goldman: 00:14:58

Well, that's great.

David Goldman: 00:14:59

Let's bring you side by side with other people who are in really similar situations to you so you don't feel alone.

David Goldman: 00:15:05

So that you feel like when you have questions, you're not the only one who has the questions.

David Goldman: 00:15:08

You can turn to your support community and really gain from that.

David Goldman: 00:15:13

And then when you mentioned meeting people where they're at, that's absolutely a tenet of.

David Goldman: 00:15:22

Is foundational to our approach.

David Goldman: 00:15:24

Where a long time ago, I used to write these diet plans for people.

David Goldman: 00:15:29

They were prescriptive and someone, they'd say, I need to lose such and such amount of weight or I have to improve my cholesterol or blood pressure or whatever.

David Goldman: 00:15:35

Can you write out what I need to do?

David Goldman: 00:15:37

And I used to do it, and it's just not worth it.

David Goldman: 00:15:39

People would experience fast changes, no question about it, but they just invariably, they would not last.

David Goldman: 00:15:45

No matter how good the diet plan is.

David Goldman: 00:15:47

It's because we need to have autonomy, we need to have agency.

David Goldman: 00:15:49

And so what we do here is we take a more adaptive approach.

David Goldman: 00:15:53

So, you know, you can think about when someone, I don't know on New Year's, let's say, that's around the corner, ish, People will go all in.

David Goldman: 00:16:03

They'll go real hard.

David Goldman: 00:16:04

And then at some point they're like, ah, enough is enough.

David Goldman: 00:16:06

And they go back to.

David Goldman: 00:16:07

They throw in the towel.

David Goldman: 00:16:08

It's like a different version of themselves.

David Goldman: 00:16:10

They're like, I'm in, like, go mode.

David Goldman: 00:16:13

And then I'm in my, like, this is the real me.

David Goldman: 00:16:16

That's like their baseline.

David Goldman: 00:16:18

And we actually want to change the baseline.

David Goldman: 00:16:20

We actually want to change.

David Goldman: 00:16:21

Like when you're done trying so hard and you just sort of revert back to, like the version of you that, you know, we want to mess with that and we want to change their baseline so that they're their usual experience where they don't feel like they're walking through mud to get to their goal.

David Goldman: 00:16:38

We want that experience to be one that they enjoy and is actually helping them be healthier and happier.

David Goldman: 00:16:43

And so that's what we're aiming at.

David Goldman: 00:16:45

We're aiming at this adaptive approach.

David Goldman: 00:16:46

We're using an adaptive approach where we look at progress, not perfection.

David Goldman: 00:16:50

And we help people incrementally make these changes that really add up to really significant, meaningful improvements that can help people come off of meds they don't want to be on, avoid surgeries they don't need be more productive at work, happier and healthier with their family.

David Goldman: 00:17:07

Just better quality time all around.

David Goldman: 00:17:08

So that's really how we're using this approach to meet people with, you know.

David Goldman: 00:17:13

Yeah.

David Goldman: 00:17:14

Where they are and give me, give.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:17:15

Me, give me an idea of the, like, what's the, how many years and what's the sample size of people that you've been working with to kind of get all these learnings that you're now able to apply in the, the Metabyte practice?

David Goldman: 00:17:31

I mean, I've been in this field for, for decades.

David Goldman: 00:17:36

I mean, ever since I graduated from college, I've been working in this domain.

David Goldman: 00:17:40

I've been working with Michael with Metabyte and Mia Lager, which was the predecessor from, since before I even met my wife.

David Goldman: 00:17:48

It's been, what is it, like a decade and a half now.

David Goldman: 00:17:50

So it's been a long time.

David Goldman: 00:17:51

We've been working with a lot of different groups.

David Goldman: 00:17:54

We've been, you know, in, in Silicon Valley.

David Goldman: 00:17:58

We've been in college settings.

David Goldman: 00:18:01

We've worked with athletes, we've worked with health professionals.

David Goldman: 00:18:05

We've worked with, you know, management and all sorts of different.

David Goldman: 00:18:08

So, I mean, tons.

David Goldman: 00:18:09

Michael, maybe you can speak more to the, the actual sheer numbers and the volume of, of who we work with before.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:18:15

Before I.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:18:16

Because I'm going to go to Michael right now.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:18:18

But first, how did you meet Michael?

David Goldman: 00:18:22

Oh, so this was at Columbia University.

David Goldman: 00:18:24

Michael was an athlete there, and when he graduated and was trying to make.

David Goldman: 00:18:30

Help the athletes eat better to support their performance.

David Goldman: 00:18:33

And that was at the time I was working in strength and conditioning and also in sports nutrition there.

David Goldman: 00:18:38

And so Michael came back with this tool and he was saying, hey, I think we can really help these athletes.

David Goldman: 00:18:43

We'll have them photograph their meals and we'll offer some nutrition counseling and we can see how we can, you know, improve their performance and, and help them with their health later on in life, too.

David Goldman: 00:18:53

And I, I, an incredible connector named Tommy Sheen, he was the hit.

David Goldman: 00:18:58

I think he still is the head strength coach there.

David Goldman: 00:19:01

He connected us and we, we became buddies real fast and, and.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:19:05

All right, well, hey, Michael, let's, let's shut up.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:19:08

Dave.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:19:08

David, for just a little bit here, and that's hard.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:19:12

Turn the microphone over to you.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:19:14

So how did a former player for the Oakland Raiders and a political scientist from Columbia University get inspired to start Metabyte, a health tech and research firm?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:19:28

I mean, what was the driving force behind that?

Michael Kwashi: 00:19:31

Yeah, definitely.

Michael Kwashi: 00:19:32

So I was a late bloomer, a little chubby as a kid, kind of Like David and I started sports when I was 15, and.

Michael Kwashi: 00:19:42

And I realized that, you know what, I'm a bit behind.

Michael Kwashi: 00:19:44

I need to catch up.

Michael Kwashi: 00:19:46

And so I wanted to really know everything that I could about how to improve my performance.

Michael Kwashi: 00:19:51

When I started football, I was 15 at that point, and so I was just really putting a lot of time and effort into training and my nutrition.

Michael Kwashi: 00:19:58

I actually had a shoulder injury and I had a dietitian work with me on the recovery side and reduce my inflammation to speed up the recovery.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:05

And I noticed how effective that was.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:08

And so by the time I got to Columbia, we actually, we implemented this pilot program using some of the things that I was using at the time with Tommy Sheehan, who David mentioned.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:20

And so that was really the start.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:22

It was really about, you know, a very selfish reason, how do I improve my recovery and my performance.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:27

And then as a polystyrene major, I so passionate about impact.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:33

It was very quick to see that beyond athletics, which is a great way to open doors and get people's attention, there was a much wider need for scalable nutrition coaching tools.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:43

On the healthcare side, especially when we started, there wasn't a way to get coaching.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:47

So, you know, if you're an athlete, you know, if someone started working with you on your technique, for example, on stroke, they wouldn't just give you a rundown of what it is and then wish you good luck and, you know, show you where the pool is.

Michael Kwashi: 00:20:59

They'd work with you step by step, which is the idea of using images.

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:03

And so we kind of build this coaching program, and David was actually the first dietitian in the US to start using it, and he knocked it out the park.

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:10

We started seeing awesome results, and that's.

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:13

That's how it got started.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:21:14

Hmm.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:21:15

So, David, you can smell a good thing when you see it.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:21:17

That's good.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:21:18

Uh, when.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:21:19

When did you, like, officially launch Metabyte?

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:24

So Metabyte is now two years old.

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:26

We had the old platform that David talked about, Milagr, and that's been used on the healthcare side.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:21:30

That's right.

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:31

But we also realized when we started, started this that, hey, there's so many things in what dietitians do that can and need to be automated.

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:39

And so I actually had a really close friend of mine from football who was working on image recognition for a company that analyzes cancer biopsy samples.

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:48

And he's been an advisor for years.

Michael Kwashi: 00:21:50

And so he helped us make sure that we built a database that allowed us to really collect this information in a way that can be used for AI, which is now finally at the point where we can really do this in a scalable, effective way.

Michael Kwashi: 00:22:04

And so it was really based on the work we did previously in healthcare that we're now applying to this new platform which offers tremendous scalability.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:22:17

So was there a turning point when you went from meal logger and working with kind of individuals where your focus went to corporate wellness as a solution to improve health outcomes and reduce costs for companies?

Michael Kwashi: 00:22:36

Yeah, it was during the pandemic.

Michael Kwashi: 00:22:38

We realized, we knew already that the data would allow for these tools to develop.

Michael Kwashi: 00:22:42

It just wasn't right there.

Michael Kwashi: 00:22:44

And then during the pandemic when you saw how healthcare got into a crisis, that was just really a good turning point.

Michael Kwashi: 00:22:51

You know, we knew that that's what we wanted to do and we started doing pilots.

Michael Kwashi: 00:22:55

And then when we got connected through a, through a mutual investor that we knew that was just the perfect time to start applying it on the corporate wellness side because healthcare is still in the place.

Michael Kwashi: 00:23:05

And you know, you both know this quite well where unfortunately the incentives are not always aligned to offer some of these nutritional services and you know, which we know are impactful, but the incentives just aren't there.

Michael Kwashi: 00:23:20

So we knew that we needed to start working with payers, specifically companies, because like the benefits that David talked about, that's where the savings are and it's not just the cost savings on the healthcare side.

Michael Kwashi: 00:23:31

There are the benefits in terms of productivity and the impact that has on your family and your community, not to even mention what happens with the environment.

Michael Kwashi: 00:23:39

So there's so many benefits and you got to figure out who's really going to benefit the most.

Michael Kwashi: 00:23:43

And it tends to be companies.

Michael Kwashi: 00:23:44

So that's why we were actually kind of looking for the right partner.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:23:47

Right, right.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:23:49

Well.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:23:49

And so speaking of kind of our collaboration and our partnership, I'd love for you to just let the listeners know.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:24:00

How did the idea for collaborating with Plantstrong come about from your vantage point?

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:08

I guess one thing to point out is that the, the focus we have on promoting whole food plant based diets goes back to David.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:15

So we met back when, you know, he was working with athletes and, and he did a wonderful job working with those athletes.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:23

And we started noticing that a lot of the healthcare customers we were working with were promoting whole food plant based diets.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:29

Not the same way David was, but there were clear similarities.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:32

And David has actually published with the ACLM on this.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:35

But as we started noticing that trend, you know, and I noticed I paid a lot of attention when what David was doing because he's so good in what he does.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:43

He kind of convinced our whole team.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:45

He convinced our, not just the team that works in this bar investors.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:49

We knew that this is the direction we wanted to take the company to really drive the kind of impact that we wanted to bring about.

Michael Kwashi: 00:24:56

And so as that mission started forming, we got introduced through that mutual connection.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:04

David was the one who really helped shape that on our end because there are a lot of things that we need to understand.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:09

How do we focus this and how do we align everything internally.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:11

And so David has done a massive amount of work.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:13

And so when we met Rip and then Lori Quarter, which was just wonderful, your whole team, I mean that trip to Black Mountain, the emotional intelligence we kept talking with David about that in your group is off the charts.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:26

Like the environment, the feeling and just the learnings were incredible.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:32

But so yeah, it was really just understanding how do we take that magic and put it in such a shape and form that it's easy for people to consume and really get access to it?

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:42

Because a lot of times we already have the information that's necessary.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:47

But then how do we help people structure their environments and form the connections like David was talking about this data on that.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:52

I can get to that later.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:54

But that's really kind of from our end.

Michael Kwashi: 00:25:56

It was David helping us understand how to take some of your magic and then put that into, you know, our, our solution, our service and joint service.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:26:08

Hey David, so how hard did you have to sell Michael and the board or whoever you had to on whole food plant based?

David Goldman: 00:26:22

You know, it's funny, I think Miel Lager.

David Goldman: 00:26:26

Correct me if I'm wrong, Michael.

David Goldman: 00:26:27

We used to call M Lager agnostic.

David Goldman: 00:26:29

Right?

David Goldman: 00:26:29

Is that the word you used to use?

Michael Kwashi: 00:26:31

Yeah, Diet agnostic.

Michael Kwashi: 00:26:32

The health professional gets to decide what they want to do.

David Goldman: 00:26:35

Yeah, but I mean it's so clear to me that the jury is in that this is the way to do it, that this is the health.

David Goldman: 00:26:46

It's not like just having a different opinion.

David Goldman: 00:26:50

Like, you know, some people think a carnivore diet is great and some, some people think a plant based diet's great.

David Goldman: 00:26:55

And there's room for everyone to have their own opinions and at the end of the day we can all.

David Goldman: 00:26:59

I mean it's like I think I just really needed to present the evidence, which I did, to Michael.

David Goldman: 00:27:06

Michael mentioned the publication I had with the American College of Lifestyle Medicine where we combed through clinical practice guidelines from so many organizations.

David Goldman: 00:27:16

I mean everything that was available and really the consensus Was clear that big surprise.

David Goldman: 00:27:21

Eating more fruits and vegetables and whole grains and beans.

David Goldman: 00:27:24

These are the sorts of foods that are really are recommended to support our health and our well being.

David Goldman: 00:27:30

And so really Michael was wonderfully receptive.

David Goldman: 00:27:33

And when he took that, when he, I think became extremely clear of the consensus and how clear those data are, he.

David Goldman: 00:27:42

He jumped right in.

David Goldman: 00:27:43

So it actually was a hard sell.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:27:45

Nice.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:27:48

So this, this question is for David and Michael mentioned, you know, you guys walked away from that Black Mountain retreat and you were remarking on how there, you know, there was a certain magic in the air.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:28:00

Right.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:28:01

And the environment that we were able to create there, the emotional IQ that the whole team had.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:28:07

And so I think, you know, David, one of your jobs has been how, how do you, how do you try and integrate that plant Strong philosophy that you guys got a really nice taste of into the program so that you can ensure that people aren't just learning, but they're also, they're able to transform their health, you know, through these real practical changes.

David Goldman: 00:28:32

Yeah.

David Goldman: 00:28:32

So that, that whole experience at Black Mountain was extraordinary for me and I'll do my best to recreate some of the plant strong philosophy.

David Goldman: 00:28:43

Tell me if I bunch.

David Goldman: 00:28:46

But I mean, for me, one of the things, it was so clear that people were taking on really meaningful challenges.

David Goldman: 00:28:54

You know, there's so many different things we can choose to take on that are all important.

David Goldman: 00:29:00

But we're really aiming at health through food primarily, which makes a lot of sense.

David Goldman: 00:29:05

It's at the crux of our health is the food that we eat.

David Goldman: 00:29:09

And we're looking to help people build this, you know, one handful of produce at a time, like fruits, vegetables, whatever.

David Goldman: 00:29:16

We're trying to help people incrementally do this.

David Goldman: 00:29:18

We're happy for people who are, you know, who want to dive into the deep end.

David Goldman: 00:29:21

That's great.

David Goldman: 00:29:22

And a lot of people want to make a slower shift, but that it seems like Plantstrong aims at these really high yield propositions and we're trying to take on those same ones.

David Goldman: 00:29:34

Something that stuck out to me beautifully was really the camaraderie the plant at the retreat, at Plan Strong.

David Goldman: 00:29:42

It's, it's very clear.

David Goldman: 00:29:43

You're, you're not trying to get people to go at this alone, that they're, you know, you want, they need to do this with friends, they need to do with family.

David Goldman: 00:29:50

They need to get some support, you know, recruit people in their lives to, to have their back.

David Goldman: 00:29:57

And we absolutely are looking to embody and embrace that too.

David Goldman: 00:30:01

I mean it goes Such a long way.

David Goldman: 00:30:03

And sometimes the people in your immediate surroundings are just not going to be those people.

David Goldman: 00:30:06

And that's okay.

David Goldman: 00:30:07

You can connect to those people virtually.

David Goldman: 00:30:09

Yeah, there are a lot of people, you know, even within your own business, you might not even realize or struggling with the same things.

David Goldman: 00:30:14

And so we.

David Goldman: 00:30:15

We want to connect people to other folks who are looking to make those same sorts of meaningful changes.

David Goldman: 00:30:20

Another thing is that that whole, like, aura at the retreat, it's like a celebration, you know, it's like.

David Goldman: 00:30:28

It feels like there is abundance.

David Goldman: 00:30:30

No one's counting calories or carbs or anything like that.

David Goldman: 00:30:33

There is a feeling of, like, I don't know, of joy.

David Goldman: 00:30:37

There's no drudgery.

David Goldman: 00:30:39

And like, oh, I'm not going to enjoy today.

David Goldman: 00:30:41

I'm not going to enjoy these meals.

David Goldman: 00:30:43

Okay, fine.

David Goldman: 00:30:43

It's for the weight or whatever I need to lose, and it's just not that feeling.

David Goldman: 00:30:46

And we're exactly taking that same approach.

David Goldman: 00:30:49

We want people to not be hungry, to eat plenty of food, eat the food that they love, not to feel like they have to just grind it out.

David Goldman: 00:30:56

You know, that's right at the.

David Goldman: 00:30:58

At the foundation of what, again, of what we're doing.

David Goldman: 00:31:00

It's like, if you're gonna make.

David Goldman: 00:31:02

If you make a change and you're like, oh, I knew I was supposed to do that.

David Goldman: 00:31:04

I was supposed to have lettuce or whatever, but you're like, I hated it, though.

David Goldman: 00:31:07

We say no, take a step back.

David Goldman: 00:31:09

Go back to the point where you really liked what you were doing, and then let's, like, bake in the stuff that will serve you, but in a way where you don't ever feel like you're counting down the days until it's over.

David Goldman: 00:31:22

Like, no, this is supposed to be a party, not a prison.

David Goldman: 00:31:24

Did you want to say something, Rip?

David Goldman: 00:31:25

You look like.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:25

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:27

That's good.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:27

That.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:27

That's.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:28

That's.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:28

That's really, really good.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:29

No, no, I think you expressed all that wonderfully well.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:34

And can I add one more thing.

David Goldman: 00:31:36

Real quick to that?

David Goldman: 00:31:37

Actually?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:31:38

Yeah.

David Goldman: 00:31:38

The very last thing I just wanted.

David Goldman: 00:31:39

I mean, I could go on and on, but I'll just say one big thing that is big for plant, strong big for metabolite.

David Goldman: 00:31:44

We very much align is that we want participants to call the shots.

David Goldman: 00:31:50

You know, we want them to be in the driver's seat.

David Goldman: 00:31:52

We don't want, like, going back to the writing up diet plans, which is painful and useless as far as I'm concerned.

David Goldman: 00:31:59

I don't think it's productive at all.

David Goldman: 00:32:01

We want people to take the helm.

David Goldman: 00:32:02

We want them to be, to be really feeling like they are in control of their own lives and that no one's telling them what they need to do.

David Goldman: 00:32:11

Then they have nothing to rebel against.

David Goldman: 00:32:13

There's nothing to push back against.

David Goldman: 00:32:14

They don't feel like mom or dad or whoever is mandating these changes.

David Goldman: 00:32:18

And I just wanted to say that's another big thing is the sense of agency.

David Goldman: 00:32:22

See eye to eye on.

David Goldman: 00:32:23

And so that's the only other thing I just want to mention.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:32:26

Yeah, yeah, no, perfect.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:32:27

So with all that being said, I think it is so exciting that you guys are creating a model that can empower employers to spread this message out right throughout their community.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:32:48

And it just becomes a win, win, win, win.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:32:50

So what I'd love to do right now is let's talk about the program itself.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:32:58

And I believe it's a 12 week corporate wellness program that you have.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:33:02

I'd love to start with you, Michael.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:33:05

And so let me ask you this.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:33:07

Let's say that you have a company, for example, like Central Pet, that actually did the 12 week program.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:33:14

They got such amazing results that they decided to, you know what, we're going to roll this out to our 7,000 employees.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:33:21

How fantastic is that?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:33:22

But tell the listener how's it structured and what makes it different from all the other wellness programs that are out there.

Michael Kwashi: 00:33:32

Definitely.

Michael Kwashi: 00:33:34

So as you said, Rip, it's a 12 week program and it's aligned with the plan.

Michael Kwashi: 00:33:38

Strong plan, strong approach.

Michael Kwashi: 00:33:40

And one of the key factors is that the user is in the driver's seat of the participant.

Michael Kwashi: 00:33:47

They get to choose what they want to drive and how they want to drive it.

Michael Kwashi: 00:33:50

And so it's structured around goals.

Michael Kwashi: 00:33:53

So there's different goals that you set for yourself.

Michael Kwashi: 00:33:56

How many servings of fruits, vegetables you want to add, you know, per week.

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:00

And then you set a goal on how you want to do it and then you can do a, you know, an analysis.

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:04

How did you achieve it?

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:05

You kind of reflect on it and then there are different themes that go on on a weekly basis.

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:10

So you know, you learn how to evaluate yourself, you know, building a support system and you know, how do you plan for success?

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:19

It covers sleep, mood, food, you know, how do you eat on a plant?

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:25

How do you eat a plant based diet on a budget?

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:26

Because those all things like it's really helping people understand how is it easy and affordable and enjoyable?

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:33

Those are the critical steps that we want to help people do while they are at the same time, getting access to some really powerful tools.

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:42

So, for example, you know, there's image recognition on as they log their meals, and logging meals is not important for the purpose of logging those meals.

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:50

The reason why logging meals is so important is because they get to connect with other people.

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:54

They get to see what they're eating.

Michael Kwashi: 00:34:55

So, you know, with the first pilot that we did with Central Garden and PET, there was a ratio between 4 to 1 in terms of sessions and meals.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:03

So people on average were recording four sessions a day, five, five minutes a session.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:08

So about 20 minutes of engagement per day, which is a lot.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:11

I mean, we're talking about a health app here, not Instagram.

David Goldman: 00:35:14

And.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:14

And so.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:15

And they were doing that.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:16

And that ratio tells you they were doing it because they were connecting with other people.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:20

They were commenting on each other's meals liking.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:22

And that's really critical that you find your tribe and you get support, because a lot of services will offer, like a community element where people just kind of talk, but this is really that you kind of see everyone on their journey, you're doing it together, and you have a virtual support group.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:36

That's critical.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:36

And we've seen that.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:35:37

Right.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:35:38

So would you say that the.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:35:39

One of the.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:35:41

One of the things that kind of separates this program from a lot of other wellness programs is the group coaching element?

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:49

It absolutely is.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:50

So it starts with that curriculum that we've been working on together with you guys, and then having those achievable goals.

Michael Kwashi: 00:35:57

Again, it's so critical to have achievable goals because people will go in and they'll have all these lofty goals, and that's great.

Michael Kwashi: 00:36:03

But you want to be able to build on success step by step.

Michael Kwashi: 00:36:07

Then again, you can start adding.

Michael Kwashi: 00:36:10

So you do that with the peer support, and then some of the other tools, the image recognition, and then you add the language model where you get to ask questions and you get answers to it.

Michael Kwashi: 00:36:18

There are different ways that we then add scalability to this, but it's putting all these pieces together that really is at the core of it.

Michael Kwashi: 00:36:27

Making sure that we have the right content, the right curriculum for people to follow, get them the support they need, and then give them these new tools that are now available at the right time if they need them.

Michael Kwashi: 00:36:37

So it's really putting these pieces together, because you can think of it like Lego bricks, like all these Lego pieces exist, but it's about, you know, putting them together in the right way for each individual.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:36:47

David, since, you know, kind of the group coaching element is such a Differentiate differentiator for you guys.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:36:56

And it's so incredibly effective.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:37:00

And you touched upon this earlier, but like, what's the science behind that?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:37:04

What does the science tell us about, about this and why isn't everybody doing it?

David Goldman: 00:37:10

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's very clear that group nutrition counseling is more effective than individual nutrition counseling.

David Goldman: 00:37:21

You know, you're mentioning like how, how would we know this from the, from the, is there scientific evidence to substantiate this?

David Goldman: 00:37:29

And I would say absolutely.

David Goldman: 00:37:30

For example, just as an example, just in the last few years, there were two systematic literature reviews that were published.

David Goldman: 00:37:39

The author's last names were Abbott and Street of the two that are coming to mind right now.

David Goldman: 00:37:44

And they found that in people who had a bunch of weight to lose, they lost more weight in group nutrition counseling than they did in individual nutrition counseling.

David Goldman: 00:37:56

And the percentage of people who lost a so called clinically meaningful amount of weight was greater again in the group counseling.

David Goldman: 00:38:08

There's other research also looking at this in patients with type 2 diabetes.

David Goldman: 00:38:12

Again, systematic literature review, you're looking at tons and lots of different studies.

David Goldman: 00:38:17

r's Jewel, and I think it was: 2017

David Goldman: 00:38:24

And again, it's just, it's more effective.

David Goldman: 00:38:25

So really when you take these really prevalent, high hitting, heavy hitting, chronic diseases that can really sideline people and just diminish their quality of life and the cost of living.

David Goldman: 00:38:41

And also when, you know, when that goes to the employer as well, it can be a lot.

David Goldman: 00:38:45

And so it's just, it seems to be more effective to do this group nutrition counseling.

David Goldman: 00:38:50

It's also more satisfying for, you know, to be able to help so many more people with, you know, to amplify this message just goes such a long way.

David Goldman: 00:39:01

It feels wonderful to be able to empower more people.

David Goldman: 00:39:05

And you know, it goes back to those same sorts of.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:39:08

Yeah.

David Goldman: 00:39:08

Reasons we were talking about before, about taking on these challenges with people who, you know, to have brothers and sisters in arms as we take on our own health, it matters a lot and you know, to learn from each other and that support, it's, it's really powerful.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:39:23

Couldn't agree with you more.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:39:24

I mean, I am, I am always amazed at how the bonds and the intimacy that occurs at all of our retreats between the participants.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:39:36

And we wouldn't, we wouldn't have the opportunity to have that unless we had a group that came together and made themselves vulnerable and open to the experience.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:39:51

And so I, anyway, I applaud you guys on what you're doing here.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:39:56

You know, one of the aspects that you have tried with some of these experimental groups like Central Pet, that has done incredibly well is you have rolled out some of our plant strong food products in the program.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:40:16

David or Michael, like how.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:40:19

What kind of a role do you feel like this plays in helping make it healthier or more sustainable for the, for these employees?

Michael Kwashi: 00:40:28

I think it's a big role.

Michael Kwashi: 00:40:29

And so that's something that we were so excited that Central actually wanted to include in their national rollout because these are milestone rewards.

Michael Kwashi: 00:40:39

People, you know, get these by trying different things.

Michael Kwashi: 00:40:42

And so by doing different things in the service and progressing, and it's great because you have a way of rewarding people for doing work.

Michael Kwashi: 00:40:51

But at the same time, they get to learn something and try something new because these products, you know, they help them on their journey.

Michael Kwashi: 00:40:57

And so discovering new foods is so important because you're trying to figure out, how do I implement this in real life?

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:04

And so, so having things that, that aren't subtly available for you, that actually help you, you know, what do I eat as a snack?

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:12

What do I do if I can't, you know, get a certain type of food?

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:15

And, oh, I can, I can combine this with that.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:16

There's just so many things that come out of that, and it's so important to have those examples.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:20

The same reason why, you know, as an athlete, when you're training, you're watching other people, you're trying different things.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:26

Just having those different reference points is so important because a lot of people aren't used to it.

David Goldman: 00:41:32

It's.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:32

When you think about what's in our food environment, we have all these other foods that are so readily available and the healthy options are not that easily available.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:40

So, you know, providing access to it, I think it's just a wonderful, wonderful thing.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:45

And it kind of.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:46

It's very timely.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:47

When you think about food as medicine, it clearly is one of those key obstacles for people to learn.

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:51

What can I try?

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:52

What do I like?

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:53

Where do I get it from?

Michael Kwashi: 00:41:55

So I think it addresses a really key problem.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:41:57

Yeah, well, and you just mentioned food is medicine.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:41:59

And just as a little aside, we partnered with a company called Trumed last year, and so 100% of our food line is now eligible for HSA FSA reimbursement.

Michael Kwashi: 00:42:11

That's wonderful.

David Goldman: 00:42:12

Yeah, yeah.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:42:13

So that's, that's, that's really, really cool.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:42:16

Let's talk about the impact on employee health and any potential corporate savings that can can happen here.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:42:26

You know, if I, if I am one of the higher ups at let's say the Amco Corporation, and, and I'm interested in looking at this.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:42:38

My first thing is what's the ROI in something like this?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:42:41

Like, how can this company not only improve the health of, of my employees, but also what kind of long term savings can I expect, especially in terms of health care costs?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:42:52

Because if it's, if it's compelling, I'm signing on the dotted line like today.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:42:57

So what have you guys seen?

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:00

Yeah, so we, I mean in terms of like the, for those who reported the, the outcomes, we had average weight loss of 5.8%.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:07

You know, we had a 7% drop in cholesterol.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:10

And again, now we're talking about not people at retreats, because your retreats are magical.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:14

We're talking about people doing this in their daily lives.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:17

And so you take those learnings and what we're currently actually doing.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:20

Dr.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:21

Marbus, who is the chief medical officer, we've put together an estimate of what those savings are and we're talking about up to $7,000 per employee.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:31

And so those savings are significant.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:34

And so again, it depends on the individual.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:43:36

What is that per year?

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:37

Per year.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:38

But when you think about again up to, so that depends on, again we're talking about averages here.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:43

So you know, some people, you know, might have comorbidities.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:46

And it's, it's, it's, it's something that we're actually working on collecting.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:50

And so maybe David wants to talk about his PhD a little later.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:53

But this information in terms of what the average savings are exists.

Michael Kwashi: 00:43:57

And so by putting that together and by looking at results, you can start getting some of that, you know, what it could be, that range.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:03

And it's somewhere between, you know, 5 to 7,000 per employee by getting certain results.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:09

And so that's actually something that we're collecting data on and we'll be able to talk about it more later.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:13

But the initial results have been really exciting.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:44:17

I like that a lot.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:44:18

And what have you found as far as, let's say I have 100 people that sign up to do the program because we all know that there's recidivism and stuff like this.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:44:30

If you have 100 people sign up, how many people are there at the end of still standing after 12 weeks?

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:35

So we were talking earlier about the kind of programs that we've run, you know, in different places.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:39

So we've had over 11,000 groups total.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:42

And when we look at these different crew and they're different types.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:45

Like some of them are small groups, some of the large groups, but when we look at the group coaching, on average we're talking about 70, 75% of completion.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:53

And there's always things that happen, like life happens in some of the pilots that we've just had.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:58

You know, the.

Michael Kwashi: 00:44:58

Unfortunately the hurricanes have had an impact, so there's a lot of things that can impact people, but in that range, it's usually what we, what we see.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:45:07

David, is there anything you'd like to add to that as far as any health benefits that employers can see?

David Goldman: 00:45:15

Yeah, you know, I mentioned before the reduction in health related productivity impairments.

David Goldman: 00:45:24

So when you cut that nearly in half, you get a whole lot more, you know, worker time and effort and energy and that goes a really long way.

David Goldman: 00:45:37

I think that that also helps shift the culture of the place where you're working, where people are maybe more inclined to take some walking meetings or to, you know, their, their lunch break.

David Goldman: 00:45:50

You know, it's just, it's a different look and a different feeling that creates a sense of, you know, it's like a team.

David Goldman: 00:45:59

And I think when people are here trying to support each other and you know, like you were mentioning, we've been doing this with Central Garden and Pet and, you know, these are a lot of people who are having their lunches together.

David Goldman: 00:46:09

And I think it can unify these employees in a way that goes even beyond just how many sick days do you need to take?

David Goldman: 00:46:16

And by the way, I'm all for taking sick days.

David Goldman: 00:46:17

I'm all for it, but I don't want to take when I'm actually sick.

David Goldman: 00:46:21

So the good news is I think that, that people will end up showing up and being more productive at work.

David Goldman: 00:46:27

And when they actually do take time off, it's not just so that they can get back to even to where they began.

David Goldman: 00:46:33

It's rather, you know, to really.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:46:35

Yeah.

David Goldman: 00:46:36

Have a greater sense of enjoyment in life.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:46:39

Well, you know, and just to just to chime in on that, just from my own personal experience, and this was a, you know, me at the firehouse, fire station too.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:46:49

But, you know, we created this culture for a good six years where any firefighter that came in, they knew that this was the, you know, the plant strong culture.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:03

And there was something about all of us rallying behind this, eating this way, working out together, that we just created this culture of wellness.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:14

And after a couple years, everybody wanted in, everybody wanted part of it.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:19

So it's incredible how attractive something like this wellness can become.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:27

And I think it's really important that people understand, you know, you guys, you have the system in place.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:33

Like we, we know, we know what it is.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:36

It's just a matter of how do we, how do we implement it in a way where people, people don't feel isolated, they don't feel alone, they don't feel like the weirdo.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:45

And you guys have provided all the tools and resources.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:48

It's beautiful.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:50

Michael, I'd like to know from you, so where do you see this plan Strong by Metabyte program going from here?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:47:58

And what's next for corporate wellness?

Michael Kwashi: 00:48:02

We're just getting started, but I mean, really where we see it going is taking this message that you've created and you've been able to share with people and amplifying it really again, we want to make it as easy and enjoyable and affordable as possible for people to start living a plant strong lifestyle.

Michael Kwashi: 00:48:19

That's really what we're trying to help, you know, accomplish together here.

Michael Kwashi: 00:48:23

And we want to take it to companies that care about their employees and want to make a change.

Michael Kwashi: 00:48:28

And it's not just again, about the employees, which is important.

Michael Kwashi: 00:48:31

There's also wider impact and terms of, you know, you doing this.

Michael Kwashi: 00:48:34

So that's the message we want to get out.

Michael Kwashi: 00:48:36

It's basically following in your footsteps.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:48:38

Yeah, well, this is, this is the brass ring that you guys are shooting for here.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:48:46

And you know, the latest stats that I've heard is that we now as a country are spending close to $5 trillion annually on healthcare costs.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:48:55

And it's just not sustainable.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:48:58

Right.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:48:59

I mean, that, that is going to bankrupt this country.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:49:02

You, you know, we, we haven't even talked about, but I have on the podcast, so people know.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:49:07

But you know how we have a pandemic of obesity, we have a pandemic of type 2 diabetes.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:49:15

And this is something that we have got to get a grip on in a big way.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:49:21

And I think if we can start to start knocking down the dominoes and start getting corporations to see this works and my God, my employees are getting healthy.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:49:33

They are.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:49:34

We're reducing our healthcare costs.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:49:38

This is some exciting stuff.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:49:41

David, any last words from you?

David Goldman: 00:49:45

Oh, sure, yeah.

David Goldman: 00:49:46

I mean, by the way, I just want to mention that when I said that GEICO intervention and you're talking about food, you know, costs, I just wanted to mention that that inter.

David Goldman: 00:49:53

That, that GEICO intervention where plant based diets were used, a bunch of sites, and I just want to say that there were actually lower food costs for eating this way as well.

David Goldman: 00:50:01

So people actually save money People tend to think of, oh, the plant based diets are going to be expensive.

David Goldman: 00:50:07

And it turns out, you know, you can certainly make them expensive if you buy these really fancy and not super healthy, like cheeses and meat alternative.

David Goldman: 00:50:14

You know, there's a lot of ways to blow your money if you want to, but, you know, rice and beans and like, and who doesn't like a burrito or a bowl of chili?

David Goldman: 00:50:21

And, you know, these are the sorts of things that are not expensive.

David Goldman: 00:50:24

And so people actually tend to save money in this sort of capacity.

David Goldman: 00:50:28

And so it's nice to have your own paycheck, go further.

David Goldman: 00:50:32

And, you know, you're talking about the future of where is this all heading.

David Goldman: 00:50:36

And I mean, I can really see us helping a lot of people, really amplifying this message.

David Goldman: 00:50:42

I think it'd be great to see metabolite at companies of all different sizes.

David Goldman: 00:50:47

I could see us helping counteract the weight gain that often happens when people are starting at a new job in a new environment and they're.

David Goldman: 00:50:57

I think there's so much that we can do helping them become more productive, help shift that culture like you experienced at the firehouse, just, it changes the whole experience.

David Goldman: 00:51:06

When you go to work and you're like, oh, there's something we're all on board here for together.

David Goldman: 00:51:10

And it makes it so that you're, you're working with your teammates.

David Goldman: 00:51:14

It's just a different feel.

David Goldman: 00:51:15

And I think it's something I've experienced personally.

David Goldman: 00:51:17

You've experienced it personally.

David Goldman: 00:51:18

I think we can really have a great effect in this way.

David Goldman: 00:51:22

I could picture people instead of having their donuts at their coffee, you know, at their meeting, maybe they have the donuts, maybe they're there, but there's also like a bowl of berries or something like that.

David Goldman: 00:51:31

And so, you know, it can start to shift.

David Goldman: 00:51:33

Not telling people what they can't have, but rather saying, hey, there's also a party here and you're invited to it.

David Goldman: 00:51:40

I'd love to see that happen.

David Goldman: 00:51:41

I think that would be a way more fun way to spend 40 hours a week than just, you know, checking the time so you can figure out when you can go take a nap or something like that.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:51:51

I hear you loud and clear.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:51:54

Well, David and Michael, it's been a pleasure having you guys on the Plan Strong podcast.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:51:59

You know, I am so proud of the work that you guys are doing that we are, you know, trying to do together to improve corporate wellness.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:52:10

And I think that you guys have, have hit pay, pay kale here, not pay dirt.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:52:17

But pay Kale here.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:52:18

It's really cool.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:52:20

So all you listeners out there, I'd love to point you to our website.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:52:26

You know, you can go to liveplantstrong.com or you can visit the Show Notes in today's episode, but this might be something that you could show to the decision makers in your workplace, in your network, and it may just like be the spark that ignites a wellness revolution in your work site.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:52:49

We would absolutely love that.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:52:52

So with that, David, Michael, my Plan Strong brothers, I appreciate you from Finland, from Bend, Oregon.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:01

You guys absolutely rock.

Michael Kwashi: 00:53:04

Thanks so much for having us.

Michael Kwashi: 00:53:05

We appreciate it.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:06

Can I get a virtual Plan Strong fist bump on the way out?

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:10

Boom.

David Goldman: 00:53:11

Rip.

David Goldman: 00:53:12

Thank you.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:13

All right.

Michael Kwashi: 00:53:14

Thank you, Rip.

Michael Kwashi: 00:53:15

Take care.

Michael Kwashi: 00:53:16

Bye.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:18

I want to thank you all for joining us for this pioneering conversation about the future of wellness in the workplace.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:25

If you're inspired by what you heard today, and if you want to learn more about the Plan Strong by Metabyte corporate wellness program, check out the Show Notes for all the details.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:36

You can also visit liveplantstrong.com and explore how we're making plant powered wellness accessible to companies everywhere.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:46

Let's keep building a healthier world together, one workplace at a time.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:52

Until next time.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:53

As always, keep it Plan Strong.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:53:58

The Plan Strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Lori Kordowich, and Amy Mackey.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:54:05

If you like what you hear, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:54:11

You can always leave a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:54:16

And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:54:23

As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:54:28

Caldwell B.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:54:29

Esselstyn Jr.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:54:30

And Ann Krile Esselstyn.

Rick Esselstyn: 00:54:32

Thanks so much for listening.