What is a show-off and are we right to be irritated by those who display certain types of skills? Be warned, various swear words are analysed in this podcast for their role in categorising annoying people.

This podcast considers what constitutes a useful talent, and whether overtly displaying our abilities is necessarily pretentious or ostentatious, and therefore worthy of ire. We analyse both the reason we feel that a show off is annoying and the reason that somebody might show off in the first place. Finally, we delve into the use of rude words to describe irritating people and determine whether they represent a useful taxonomy of human behaviours.

A few things we mentioned in this podcast:

• Assholes: A Theory by Aaron James
• Attempts to define the douchebag
• Prestige v Dominance, according to Robin Hanson

For more information on Aleph Insights visit our website https://alephinsights.com or to get in touch about our podcast email [email protected]

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGrure, for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts, we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Nick Hare and Peter Coghill of Aleph Insights, and this week we're discussing annoying bartenders. And due to the new lockdown, unusually, we're recording this remotely. Nick, so you and bartenders not getting on.

No, well, it's lockdown, isn't it? So I haven't been to a bar for a while now. It's been a few weeks, but it actually isn't a real life bartender. It's one on the internet. So I've been having the odd Friday afternoon cocktail. It's quite nice to end the week with something which takes a bit of effort to make. And so I've been looking at online cocktail recipes just to decide what I'm going to have. And there was this one particular video. I can't even remember what he was making, like a mojito or something. But this guy was being so annoying and pretentious about it and had this thing where instead of just pouring the drinks in from the little measure flask thing, he was kind of doing it backhanded as though it was sort of, you know, sort of feel like he got this little special way of pouring the drinks in and was sort of suggested it was almost the the implication was that this was just better, you know, because he was doing it differently. And then I realized how irritating I find people mixing cocktails in bars. It's just something so annoying about it, quite apart from, you know, having to wait for ages because because all you want is a is a pint of lager and somebody else has ordered something which takes 10 minutes for them to fart about with all that kind of, you know, hipster craft cocktail stuff. And then what I couldn't work out is why why I find it so annoying. So, you know, we've got this Slack channel at work and I said, I find these bartenders aren't annoying. And Chris, who isn't on the podcast, but he said, yeah, also people on jet skis. And I thought, yeah, yeah, it's people on jet skis and annoying bartenders. I think we're moving. They they evoke the exact same reaction in me. And I and I want to pin down what that is. And I is is it am I being irrational? Or is am I being is there something is there reason to my to my irrational loathing of these of these people?

So to be clear, where you're you don't where you don't like the mixologist. I'm sure you probably find the the term mixologist annoying, but you don't like those mixologists who are not just quietly, unobtrusively pouring cocktails as any normal person might. It's the it's the

flinging bottles up in the air and that's that's very much. Yes. Yeah. Someone having a cocktail, not a prob, but this the whole theater associated with it. So I've got some insight on this.

Is it just those two categories of people? Mixologists on jet skis? Don't get me started.

Right? Yeah. So I mean, who else is there? Peter, you're pretty mild mannered. Is there anyone out there? Any sort of types who get on your nerves?

No, not really. I'm pretty just like you do you, I'll do me. Whatever you whatever you want to get up to. That's fine. I mean, there's a huge array of amazing, sort of useless talents that people have dedicated their lives to getting into a high degree of skill in a high degree of proficiency and something that is ultimately pretty pointless, certainly pointless, from my perspective, but you only have to there's a great subreddit called useless talents. It's well worth a check out. Most of it's kind of people just, you know, posting a video of how they can roll their tongue in an interesting way or something. But, you know, sometimes people have posted like articles about how somebody has, you know, like solving Rubik's cubes in under a millisecond and just things that really. What's the point? Why have you why have you dedicated your life?

Have you seen the one about the guy who can always guess what acronyms stand for? It's an absolutely extraordinary work of art, this thread. This guy said, look, if you post a question, you know, but only as acronyms, I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to tell you what it means. And he just, you know, unfailingly gets every single one of these. It's quite remarkable. And I remember seeing a thing in the 80s. It was a I can't remember what it was. I think it was like a game show or something of sort of useless talents. And there were these guys who could tell you who could tell you what Queen song was being played through a speaker by only watching that speaker's effect on a nearby candle. But they could only do it with Queen songs. But I remember thinking that is really spectacular. But it's hard to imagine when that would come in handy.

Well, hold on. I think we're going off on a tangent. We are. I think we're probably a fan

of these kinds of people. Yeah, well, that's the thing. So it's I think that's the interesting thing. And there are because because it isn't just it's almost I think I think it actually does have to do with with talent and the lack thereof and all the perceived lack thereof, because I have no problem with a violinist standing up and, you know, more or less showing off about playing the violin for an hour because I feel like they deserved it. They've earned that. So there's something about someone acting like mixing a cocktail is the same as playing the violin, which I find irritating. And I want to know why. Well, look, are there any more?

We're still on those two, right? Yeah. What about ski instructors? Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good

one. Yeah, exactly. But I also wrote and now I have a theory which I won't expose yet. But based on the theory that helped me narrow down things that I feel like are a little bit a little bit similar. Celebrities who don't do anything totally untalented and yet are there. Yeah. People who drive their cars down the road with really loud music blaring out people driving is a grumpy old loud motorbikes. People who listen to music out loud on the tube on the bus. I think that they're all part of it as well. Part of the same nexus of sorts of, oh, my God, why? So here's the here's my first clue. Gardens of the gates of wankerdom. I think they will get on to wankers, V douchebags, V arseholes, because I think there's a there's a subtle distinction between them. But I think I think it's something to do with being the or calling attention to yourself for no good reason. There's my there's my first stab. Now, my theory develops more from there. But perhaps we do want to move on to, you know, are these people what's the difference between a wanker and an arsehole and a douchebag? Because we don't have the term douchebag in in the UK, but I think it's absolutely perfect. I think it's a great term for for these kinds of people. I think are we in the realms of

Team America, right? Which is what is it? Dicks, pussies and arseholes. Yeah. And actually, when they explain it, you go, yeah, OK, that makes sense. And maybe you're on the is it is this maybe we have equivalent categories here. I don't know. See, I well, I found a really good

attempt to separate these things. Well, first of all, there is actually a whole book called Arseholes A Theory by Kygold Aaron James, and he splits he splits that out into a into a different typography of the smug smug arsehole, the self aggrandizing arsehole, the corporate arsehole. But the one of the key things is that the difference between your douchebag and your arsehole is that arseholes I saw this someone wrote this. I can't remember who, but they're proud of being arseholes. Douchebags don't realize they're doing it. And the other thing is that I think the sort of arseholes are actively mean. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Whereas there's something in a way even more infuriating about the douchebag who actually isn't even going out of his way. He's so self-centered. He doesn't care about you. He doesn't even want to hurt you. He just doesn't

care. It's sort of like it's like they're like an ignorant arsehole. Yeah, yeah. They're not doing it for they have nothing on purpose. They're just doing it as a lack of self-awareness there. Yeah.

It's all the more irritating. What was it? Wasn't there a third one? You say arseholes?

Yeah, wankers. Wankers. Okay. Yeah. I feel like that wanker has a connotation of sort of slight stupidity as well, or kind of incompetence. So I think it's got all of the so if you take it. So Aaron James's definition of an arsehole is someone who allows themselves to enjoy special advantages in social relations, out of an entrenched sense of entitlement that immunizes them against the complaints of other people, is that sense of entitlement, the sense that they are better than other people when they're not. So is this where your mixologist comes in? I now so yeah, so I think the it's the fact that they are in a kind of position of power, certainly in a position of power, sort of temporarily, because you have to wait for them to serve you. And you're competing against other people. They're the center of attention. And and they appear to have, you know, some sort of aura of status around that. And yeah, unlike, you know, a musician, it's completely unearned. Yeah. And I think it's, I think that might be that could be where, you know, where my

where my theory is going. But also, but because then also, it may forces you to make a judgment about that person, because also, it just shows you that's the kind of person who they've reached, you know, the, the, the height of what their minimal talents can be. It's, it's, do you see what I mean? It's just, yeah, yeah, right, because we because they because what they're doing is just not intrinsically that hard. Yeah. And so it's like another reason on top of it. I'm not, it's another layer. It's got rich layers to this, actually. Peter, I can really get with this, Nick, by the way, I can really get with it.

Yeah, okay. I don't, I don't, I'm not conscious that we're not conscious that we're being very, we're being very kind of rude about people's choice of talent. In defense of bartenders, a couple of things I've got to say. So, the bartender, the mixologist, he juggles his, his bottles and shakers and whatnot. He's doing that to entertain his customers. And presumably, part of the skill in that job is to know when you have got an audience who's receptive to that, right? So I've said, I've been in cocktail bars, and I've seen people do this. And then I think, by and large, they're doing it when they think they're going to, it's going to sort of entertain the people with possibly with an aim to just that in itself, in its own right, but also possibly to get a tip from people who are buying the drinks. And I've also witnessed in several places, that they, they tone it down when the bar is busy. So they might do less or do nothing if there's a busy bar, because they realise that actually, ultimately, their job is to sell drinks, the more drinks they sell, the better, rather than showing off. So I think in defence, the by and large people are generally a bit more sensible. But here's a question, Nick. So essentially, what they're doing is like entertaining in a similar way to say, a clown would juggle. Do you find clowns and jugglers and kind of street

performers of that ilk irritating? You know, I kind of do, actually, there is, no, I don't mind if you do, juggling actually is almost, it's on the cusp, I think, because it's such a pointless thing to be able to do, juggling only exists to show off that you can juggle. Like, it doesn't produce any other output other than showing that you can do it. It's not particularly visually pleasing. I don't think that's true. It's purely showing off. Well, that's why I said they're on the cusp. I'm not then, I might give them, I'll give them 10 minutes to impress me. But no, I think Peter's being way over generous here. Like, well, these bar people, these bottle chuckers, they're not doing it because they think the crowd is demanding a show. They're doing it to show off and probably to girls. And I just find that so

irritating. There's a kind of suave context to it as well, which is also annoying. But actually, I'm slightly alarmed by Peter going to all these cocktail bars all the time, because I just don't, I wouldn't be able to draw upon that range of data because, you know, I've been to a cocktail bar maybe three times in my life. I don't know. So, but you go to these places where sometimes it's busy, sometimes it's not Peter. And sometimes, I don't know, you didn't strike me as a kind of cocktail person. Don't judge me. I'm like a Bellini now again. So where are we going with this? You started, you were talking, have we reached the bottom of your theory? No, we've barely scratched the surface. Keep going. So yeah, keep going. Keep going. Well, okay. So

take us down further. But it's disappointing that Peter doesn't, I think Peter's rationalizing his, I think he deep down, he's got a lot of rage and he's trying to pretend that he has a lot of rage. I got a lot of rage, but not about this. Yeah, but I refuse to believe that there aren't these kinds of behaviors you don't find really irritating. Okay, let's put it this way. The guy on the tube, usually the bus actually, who's playing his music through his speech.

I wouldn't put them in the same class as this person at all. The principal distinction for me,

the guy on the bus, the person on the bus. He thinks he's entertaining people, but he's not.

No, no, no. He's irritating people. I think he's just doing it because that's how he does it. He's not. Well, why are you being so generous to the bar staff and not to this guy? The key distinction is the bar staff chucking the bottles around. They've practiced that. It takes a lot of practice to juggle bottles around without. So it is merely, it's a quantitative issue. Also, that's maybe even the worst. That makes it even worse because they've devoted time to

this pointless thing that's just about self-aggrandizement. That's just what they do for

fun, right? You know, I cycle and things. This is going to get me the girls. They're going to love this. Yeah, but you know, it's just, you know, I do pointless things for fun and people will think it's pointless, but other people would think it was highly virtuous. Do you do wheelies down

Crouch Hill? No, I've never done a wheelie in my life. Right, so if you did, then you'd be in,

I'm afraid you'd be in my douchebag bracket. As a mountain biker, wheelies are actually a useful thing in mountain biking. Being able to do wheelies. He's rationalizing it again. Is a useful thing, but not down Crouch Hill. That's pointless. But being able to do it while off road is a useful thing for getting over jumps and things. See, I feel that for each of these

activities, you can concoct a spurious explanation like Peter's necessity to do wheelies on mountains and his, and the fact that allegedly some people find bottle chuckers entertaining. They don't. No one does. Everyone hates it. And I think even the person on the bus with playing their bloody music through their speaker, I think they're going to rationalize it and say, you know, oh, I'm just putting on a show for people. You can all just listen to my fantastic music and enjoy it, you know, same as I do. And if you, if you're, if you complain about it, you're just a boring stick in the mud. And I, and I, I feel like it's the same thing. It's, it's, it's making yourself the social center of attention in an undeserved way, which, which is touching on what my theory really is. The real, the real theory, which is the kernel of it. Yeah. Well, it's to do with sort of the policing of, of status, which obviously we're hugely well tuned to is sort of who is high status, who's low status and making sure that people have the status they deserve is really important. So, Robin Hanson, you know, he of the, the, the signaling guy, well, the one who kind of has done probably the most thinking about, you know, signaling as a kind of fundamental human activity talks about the fact that there's the, the sort of two types of status, which are prestige and dominance. So you can get, you can get, you know, which is the kind of someone who a prestige is to do with love essentially, and dominance is to do with fear. So it's like the person who's really well liked because they're a nice guy and, you know, funny versus this playground bully can both get, get status. And he makes this quite interesting point that, that people often, because we disapprove of dominance type status, right? We really strongly primed to disapprove that because it's bad for us if we get dominated, but, but prestige type status is fine. But that's good because prestige is almost is kind of having assets that you can use to help people. It's the way that Steven Pink has defined it, that prestige is having the ability to do things for people, should you so choose. That if, if there's some, if, if there's someone we don't like, we try to reframe it as, as dominance. So, so for example, people will look at sort of tech billionaires and try to claim that they have exploited a dominant position and have cheated their way to the top, rather than that they've come up with, you know, an innovative business model, which they seek to exploit. Or, you know, saying that, I guess, sort of the way that the Nazis, you know, were trying to claim that the Jews were in a sort of international conspiracy and they were exploiting their position of power to subjugate Germans, rather than that they were simply good at stuff and, you know, made money through it. I think other even more esoteric things like fights over, you know, who's good at modern art, you know, are, are, are, you know, people who win the Turner Prize, people who don't like modern art want to reframe what they're doing as exploiting their connections in the pretentious art world to get publicity, rather than that they're producing something of value. So, so, and I, I think this is tapped into the same feeling that when I see, when I see someone showing off making a cocktail, I think, well, they're just, they're exploiting the fact that they are center of attention, you know, and they are not, they don't deserve that sort of artificially created set of prestige that they have simply by, you know, being the person who we're all competing for to make us a drink. So that's my theory. That's my theory. My theory is that it's basically a kind of prestige, status policing, and therefore quite buried quite deep down in my limbic system, where this motivation comes from, and why it's so visceral.

Yeah. So there's bloody status cheaters or status stealers.

Yeah, status, status. What do they call those American the in America? They've got word of me. Oh, stolen valor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For people who dress up as soldiers, so they can get a 10% discount at Walmart.

I've got a question then. So let's assume it is all about signaling and signaling status. Is it not that they're just signaling things that you don't value? They're signaling their proficiency and things that you don't value.

No, I'll tell you what it is. It's because they're signaling with something which is actually it's all they've got. That's all they've got. Because you know, that guy working in a bar might be a secret mass genius.

He's just such a douchebag apologist.

It's so thin that anyone with any wherewithal, if they really wanted to, they could do that. But they don't because it's just bloody stupid. Whereas these these and let's call them guys, because they are generally guys.

I see a challenge coming along. I'd like to see Fraser and Nick try to learn how to juggle bottles. Easy, easy.

Well, actually, look, we need we need to wind up, which means brings me on to question.

No, but I think Peter's question is a good one. I but I think in a way, I forgot what it was.

So why can't you just let live and let live then except there are kind of different populations within the world that have different value sets. And the fact that some population of there are people who go to bars and like seeing people juggle bottles and therefore people who will want to signal that they are good at juggling bottles.

Literally, no one wants to. That's what I'm saying. I don't think that's true, otherwise there wouldn't be a market for it. There isn't a market for it. They're exploiting the fact that they're in front of people to to show off.

Yeah, I don't think I've witnessed people being entertained by it.

Peter, the fact that people drive down the street with their with their windows open, blaring out blaring out loud music. Is that because there's a market for it?

No, I wasn't talking about that. I was talking specifically about bartenders.

No one pays a bartender to juggle bottles if they're not actually buying a drink at the same time.

If there was a market, they actually pay them to juggle bottles. There are cocktail bars that give bonuses to people who are able to juggle bottles.

Yes. Yeah. But what I'm saying is no one walks into a bar and says, I don't want a drink, but here's five quid so you can juggle some bottles. No one does that because there isn't a market for it. No one values it. But there is a I don't I don't personally want to watch a footballer, but I but I know that people do. And it's a genuinely valuable thing. And I don't mind footballers being high status by being good at it. Things like being able to play your music on in the on the bus immediately gives you dominance, center of attention, the status. But it's not something that anyone wants. And it's the same with bottle jugglers. And I think my argument is a is a killer there. No one no one pays to watch people juggle bottles when they're not buying.

I think we're getting bogged down. We're getting bogged down. We're getting bogged down. I think there is crucial argument. I actually probably side with Peter on this one. I think there is an audience for that. I think there are some kind of people who like that kind of thing. But they can be they can be they're all off together in their third circle of hell anyway.

So I have a I have a counter theory before we start wrapping up. OK, so my theory that my theory that the source of Nick's sort of visceral hatred for these kind of people, I'm talking specifically about the subset of those people he finds annoying, which are that there is some degree of talent, i.e. there's been work and practice put in to getting good at that, not the person on the bus, the phone, but the bartender is example of this. I think he's just envious because he is so sort of physically malcoordinated, terrible hand like coordination and has never been able to never been able to master the art of juggling. And so he just hates them all.

It's it's it's it is true that I'm not very good at juggling. But also, yeah, that kind of thing. I'm all right with fine motor control, but not nothing bigger than that.

Well, thank you, Peter, because that actually does lead me on to the question to ask. And I think you might have found out, Nick, that I've got to the bottom of it all. So here's a question for you. And what useless talent would you like to have? Either Nick or Peter go for that?

I think I'd like to be able to play the piano as well as Nick.

I like I like there's a kind of the backhandedness of that compliment.

Yeah, it's true that it's not going to cure covid, but it gives people people a chance something to listen to.

I think it's a very useful talent. You know, I'm biased as well because I would also like to be able to play the piano like Nick. But yeah, I would consider it. Yeah, to be a useful thing and desirable thing. Anything else, Peter?

I'd like to be better at cycling and fitness generally. Just like be fitter and strong, be 16 year old again. You know, I mean, I do. I do cycling for the fitness and for the exercise and the kind of getting out there with some friends. I don't need to be any better because I get I get a good workout doing it. But it'd be nice to be better. Sure.

I think the useless talent I would like actually would be magic because I do love magic tricks. I'd love to be able to sort of pull a 10 pence piece out the kid's ear, that kind of thing. I'd love to be able to do magic.

Just get yourself a copy of J.B. Bobo's Coin Magic. The classic. I think I've got it. Was it J.B. J.B. Bobo?

Step one, get the book. Step two, read it. Yeah, I think I think I think I might acquire a coin. I suspect he's further fallen down at step two.

Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. Actually following through on something. Yeah. That would be. Nick.

Well, I, I, I, I guess it's things that are useless, right? So it's got to be things that are, I'm going to say, technologically obsolete and yet impressive to watch that. They're the things that we're looking for. So I think I'd go with just like ridiculous mental arithmetic, which, so there was two, actually, that that the ridiculous mental arithmetic, which is always just astounding when you see these people who can get given to two 10 digit numbers and multiply them together in their head, you know, in sort of point one seconds. I mean, completely useless these days, but almost as a result, really impressive because, you know, that they haven't even had to learn it. It's just, they've sort of learned it for fun. The other is I've always been bad at representational art. I'm all right at technical drawing, but I'm not right. I'm hopeless at drawing things. I'd love to be able to draw like little caricatures of people, you know, like do really good little drawings of people apart. It'd be a good party trick.

And you could put yourself in the same class as the bartender in that case.

But no, because it would give people something useful at the end. Would it though?

Right. I think before things flare up again, I think we should stop there. Great. Thank you, as always, for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Nick Hare and Peter Coghill of Aleph Insights. Until next time, goodbye.