Dr Don Lichi returns to the podcast. The dialogue encourages us to recognize the transformative power of relationships in both personal and professional spheres, underscoring that genuine influence is cultivated through empathy, trust, and respect. As we explore these ideas, we also touch upon the challenges faced by leaders in today’s fast-paced world, highlighting the necessity for intentional connection and understanding in fostering a supportive community.

The central theme of Back Channel with Foth episode revolves around the significance of relational influence over positional power, as articulated by our esteemed guest, Dick Foth. In our discussion, we delve into the nuanced distinctions between these forms of influence, emphasizing that while positional power may provide temporary authority, it is the enduring value of relationships that fosters true connection and trust. Foth draws upon biblical texts, particularly the kenosis passage from Philippians, to illustrate the importance of humility and the relinquishment of self-serving power in favor of serving others.

Takeaways:

• The essence of leadership lies in relational influence rather than mere positional power, a concept crucial for effective governance in any organization.
• Trust and respect are foundational elements for flourishing relationships within any group, whether institutional or personal, which foster an atmosphere of collaboration.
• In moments of difficulty, it is essential to rely on relationships, as they provide the necessary support during challenging times, reinforcing one's sense of identity and calling.
• Listening is a vital skill that fosters deeper connections; one must practice the art of active listening to truly understand the experiences of others.
• Encouraging individuals to stay anchored to their purpose amidst distractions can significantly enhance their resilience and commitment to their mission.
• Healthy accountability encompasses mutual support, where openness and honesty are prioritized, creating an environment conducive to growth and moral integrity.

Welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity insight, encouragement for life and mission.

And I'm Aaron Sandemier and I'm going to be your host.

We're so excited to have our friend of the podcast, Dick Foth, on another session of Back Channel with Folk.

And then we're going to jump into our interview with Dr. Don Litchie.

Dick, welcome back to the podcast.

Here we go, one more time.

One more time.

And let's do this.

And didn't get the intro correct.

We had to do it.

I had to do it twice.

So anyway, but they wouldn't have known that I wouldn't have told him.

So Dick, got two questions as we always have.

First one is in your time leading, how have you learned to rely on relational influence rather than positional or possessional power?

You know, that's really terrific question because that's the heart of how things work, at least institutionally for sure.

I just like to make this statement that positional power and what I will call relational power, I.e.

Influence, are not mutually exclusive.

And a text that really brings that home to me is a classic text that so many of us have read over and over.

Theologians call it the kenosis passage, Philippians 2, 1:11.

I won't read the whole thing, but let me just read a couple thoughts.

Therefore, if any, if any.

Ah, now I have to do it twice.

Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, any comfort from his love, any common sharing in the spirit, any tenderness, compassion, make my joy complete by being like minded.

He goes on to talk about the mindset of Christ.

Here's the classic line.

In your relationships with one another have the same mindset as Christ Jesus, who being in very nature God, that is position, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.

Rather, he made himself nothing.

And you go down through the text and it describes the.

The lessening.

Lessening is the wrong word.

But the.

The release of positional power that is to use for his own advantage in favor of coming to identify with us.

Building relationship Jesus is a friend of sinners.

I love that line.

That means I get in.

It might even mean you get in, you know, so but, but here's the thing about relational influence.

Relationships make life work.

And people who know me know folk just is so obsessive about relationship.

I don't think I'm obsessive about relationships.

I think God is obsessive about relationships and I'm learning.

But it takes two things for groups to flourish.

Institutional Groups, organizational groups, inside or out.

It takes two things, trust and respect.

We live in a world that is dying for lack of trust for a whole panoply of reasons.

When I read Jesus in Luke, the second chapter, it says that he grew in favor with God and man.

So he's got those relationships aligned.

Positional power.

You know, this gives direction usually to organizations or movements or entities, but it's seasonal.

There's a sell by date on positional relationship.

And I came into this setting and the structures were different, the relationships were different.

And I said, I've looked all through the scriptures looking for President.

I can't find Pres.

I told the students this in the chapel.

Can't find president anywhere.

Closest I can come as emperor.

And a whole dorm of gods started calling me Emperor Foth, you know.

But relational power, positional power, is seasonal, has a sell by date.

Relational power is forever.

Here's Jesus saying, I surely am with you always to the very end of the age.

So you have three or four different kinds of relationships.

And if I extend this just a moment, there are peer relationships.

One of the things about college, if you go to college, is you have this natural setting for building friendships that many times endure.

You have mentoring relationships.

The person who impacts me relationally, especially the older person who impacts me at a growth point in my life, will always be in my heart.

They will always have influence in me and with me.

I can name four men, on average, about 15 to 20 years older than I, during my 20s, my formative adult years, who had huge impact on me.

And then you have honoring relationships.

I have the privilege, as you know, of going a few times a year to be at national community church in D.C. because for one reason, Mark Batterson, whom I met when he was 26, and I was older than that by some years,.

He.

He has this thing about honoring.

And so even at my age, I still have connection because of that kind of relationship.

When it comes to influence, the key word is access.

Position gives access sometimes.

Friendship gives access always.

Wow.

Wow.

Good.

Good word.

Good word.

Dick, second question.

Same, same listener.

Did you drift towards one of these?

Were tired or worn out?

Worn down.

Yeah.

When I'm tired, worn down, discouraged, whatever.

What I feel usually is alone.

Position doesn't help help me with that.

When I'm alone, relationship is the only thing that helps me.

I remember when I was college president, because you're always looking for money, right?

I mean, you're.

The standard thing about, about a college president.

One definition is that's a person who lives in a big house and begs, you know, so.

And I was not expecting that and all of that.

But the, the I.

The idea that friendship comes when you're down and challenges you oftentimes.

You know, I wanted to run a dozen times when I was college president just because it was hard.

Yeah.

And had a friend come and say both.

I'm on you like ugly on an ape.

You can run, but you can't hide.

I'm gonna find anyway.

That's where I tend to go when I'm tired or worn out.

Yeah.

To relation.

Well, it's interesting because, you know, I thought when I read the question, I think probably when I'm tired of worn out, I probably go to position because I'm just tired and worn out and I'm not thinking about it.

But interesting that you go to relationship that gives you.

Because you feel lonely.

You, you put a lot more depth of thinking into that than I did.

My, my first quick.

It's good stuff.

Good stuff.

We're going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Dr. Don on listening and in the pastor.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

Welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be here today with the return guest, Dr. Don.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, sir.

Last name Litchy.

Kind of like tell people it's itchy with an l and you'll never miss it.

But Don is good, so thank you, Aaron.

It's so good to be with you again and so appreciate all the work that you do and your wife does.

All around the world.

Thank you.

It was so fun to have you with us this summer and here in Springfield.

And I was actually just on a call today with some.

Some missionaries that were participating and they just spoke so highly of you and the sessions you.

You taught and this said it was like I could have sat there for a long time and listened to him.

So that's a great thing.

That's a great for people say thank you for those who didn't get to meet you in Springfield.

Didn't hear one of our first podcasts has not heard you spoke.

That's all.

You've spoken a lot of places.

But if they have not heard you yet, will you share a little bit about yourself before I jump it into asking you questions?

I'm Don, I'm a licensed psychologist, have been vice president and now I'm vice president emeritus from Emerge Counseling Ministries in Akron.

I have been with emerge for about 34 years and about 53,000 hours of clinical work.

I'm happily married to Marcy.

We have been married 55 years.

We have three adult children and eight grandchildren.

Wow.

You're a blessed man.

Blessed man.

So, Don, thank you.

First question I have for you, you've cared for and counseled missionaries and pastors for decades.

What are some common themes you have recogn?

I think one of the great themes that I've recognized is encouraging those who perhaps have maybe gotten a little bit of off the path of the Hebrew word darak or the way, and maybe have just gotten a little bit dismayed about their call.

And that seems to be one of the great things.

I just know that if you have a why, you can do just about any what.

But if you lose your why.

And one of the great things I've seen over time is just through hurry, through distractions, through life, through kids, through disappointments, sometimes hardships, setbacks.

Malta experiences, I call them, you know, the Malta experiences of life that Paul had.

But sometimes it's.

People can lose their sense of call and identity.

And I do encourage all of our leaders and missionaries in particular to not doubt in the night what God has.

Promised you in the day.

Wow.

If he's called you and he has called you and he's anointed you, gifted you, and you can trust him that you are where you are because you've said, yes, Lord, and Jesus is smart enough, wonderful enough, glorious enough, and powerful enough to bring you to exactly the place where he wants you to be, to do his work, to.

To be a dispenser and a conduit of his presence, to bring the kingdom of God to the place where you are.

Wow.

Wow.

And that.

That doubting or doubting of calling, is that something that happens progressively over time?

Is that something.

It's.

You just wake up in the morning, and I. I don't.

I honestly don't know.

Is it something.

Somebody just wakes up in the morning and the doubt begins.

What have you seen as you've walked?

I think.

I think it can certainly be.

Something.

That's progressive over time, Kind of like the opposite of progressive sanctification.

But on the other hand, sometimes there's a crisis that happens.

There's an unexpected death or setback or loss or injury or something like that that happens.

And it can happen while we're doing the Lord's work.

Yeah.

In the ministry.

And it's kind of like David's experience, like where is God, Lord?

I've answered the call, I've said yes to you.

And I don't see you, feel you, I don't hear you.

Sometimes they may be going through it.

Some have called a dark night of the soul, or just the emotional depression or anxiety and, or a crisis can happen and a crisis can, can really shake somebody, particularly if they've had the idea like, you know, I've served God, I've done well, I've been obedient and something bad has happened to me, where's God?

Yeah.

And that can be so frightening, it can be so discouraging.

And boy, oh boy, do we need each other during that season of time.

Yeah.

Off, off script.

But, but Dr. Don, if somebody has a friend, somebody's a friend and they have a colleague that just shared just what you said, they're in the dark night of the soul, they're going through a deprive of depression, they've had a crisis.

What, what does a healthy friend look like in that situation?

Oh, so that is a hundred thousand.

Dollar wonderful question, Aaron.

Thank you.

It means that you come alongside and you sit with them in their pain.

You listen, you empathize, you care for them, you exercise the power of presence.

It's exactly what Job's friends did at first when they came and just sat with him in his grief.

That was one of the greatest gifts that they gave to him.

And one of the things that we can do when someone is in that spot is just come alongside.

We don't have to fix their problem, we don't have to solve it.

We don't have to give insight.

We don't have to certainly say why.

They're going through what they're going through.

We can sit with them and listen.

To them and give them the gift.

Of hearing and asking a second question, asking a third question.

And work really hard to stay out of your own autobiography long enough to become, as it were, incarnate into the.

Life of the other.

What are they experiencing like now?

What are they, what are their fears?

What are they hearing?

What is their, what's their thought process?

What are they fearing and concerned about right now?

And you get into that person's world.

And you sit there with them and listen to them.

That is one of the greatest gifts.

That we can give to our brothers and sisters.

Wow.

Wow.

So with COVID there's been recent changes.

The world seems to be moving faster and faster and faster.

Are there any changes that you're seeing in the challenges ministers are facing?

Maybe since COVID up to this time, and maybe you've been doing.

You said you have a lot of 37,000 hours.

I mean, you've had a lot of.

Time to sit with 53,000.

There you go.

There you go.

Well, there you go.

A lot of hours with.

I know.

It's a lot.

It's a lot.

That's.

Every gray hair I have is one of those hours.

But it's a blessing because you have wisdom and experience, and the only way to get those 53,000 hours is to spend 53,000 hours of doing that.

So have you seen any recent changes as you walk with people?

One of the things I've seen here and of late is almost like a hero worshiping and competition.

Who's got the fabric growing, whatever it is, or the how many followers and how many hits and how many likes and things like that.

And it almost seems like there's this almost like epidemic of idolatry of how many likes we can get.

And the increase since COVID I've seen just an increase in the.

The draw to the dopamine hit to have something new and novel and fresh and exciting.

And then concurrent with that, excuse me,.

Is the inability to sit still and sit quietly before God and just wait.

Before the Lord, Just.

Just absolutely seek the Lord.

And then I've seen almost like a diminished.

I say.

I hate to say it, almost like.

A diminished concern for personal holiness.

You know, a healthy fear of God and.

And a strong desire that we need.

To have to walk before the Lord with humility and expectancy and talk about listening, Taking the time.

Time.

Taking time.

Yeah.

To listen to the Lord and listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit, speak to us particularly through his word, but also through trusted brothers and sisters.

And taking the time to sit before the Lord and be still, be quiet, be still, and know that he's the Lord and not lose hope in the fact that sometimes God's silence never means his absence.

God's silence never means his absence.

He can never and will never ever leave you or forsake you.

That's the promise that's been given to us by Our Lord.

So 20 or 30 years ago, if I hear what you're saying, 20, 30 years ago, people had more of a.

A capacity to sit in.

In silence, to.

To be in God's presence, to hear his voice.

Yeah.

Be at the altar, spend time with the altar.

I. I grew up.

You know, I grew up in assembly's God Church, and there were altar times when you would go up o pray, and you would.

Terry and there, as you said, I think there's something to be said from that.

But do you think that there was.

Some really good spiritual therapy that took place at the altar?

And you know, I can't say I was always 100% holy in my mode is at the altar.

Sometimes I'd be there with my buddies and we'd be talking about now.

We'd have our heads down, of course, because we wanted people to think we're really holy and that we were talking about who we're going out with and what we're going to do after church.

But.

And we didn't want to be the first ones up and we certainly didn't want to be the last ones up.

So we had to kind of time it just.

Right.

But on the other hand, it was at that altar where there was a word that's not used very often right now.

It's the word.

Terry T A R R Terry, wait before the Lord expectantly be still and expectantly wait.

And I can tell you it was at that altar where I was able.

To.

Work through the loss of a.

Brother in a teenage drowning accident.

I was able to tarry before the.

Lord, to work through my own commitment to the Lord, my own concerns and anger at times.

It was the time where seeking the Holy Spirit to be able to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to be filled over and over and over again with the Holy Spirit.

And I can tell you it's at those points of vulnerability of really crying out to God, opening your heart, letting God know what's going on inside, and then being still waiting for that rushing, mighty powerful wind of the Holy Spirit to come.

Those were times I will never forget.

They were life changing times for me.

Yeah, good, good word and testimony time.

You know, there's, there's times of tearing and the testimonies that came from that.

Oh yeah, for sure.

When it comes, you saw healings and you saw, oh yeah, people being prayed for and, and some of the people that would come up, for example, and.

They don't even know what I'm dealing with but will come up and lay.

Their hands on me and pray over me.

I mean, I just know for sure that that was so pleasing to God and so honoring of the Lord that he just.

God loves it when we tarry and we call out to him.

He loves it when we praise him and he just runs to those things and occupies that space.

Good word.

When it comes to finding friends in ministry, what are some practical tips you could share for us today?

For maybe they're in a season of loneliness, they're in ministry, they're, they're serving God.

They're not living in sin.

But if they, they were honest, they would say, you know, I'm, I'm lonely and I want a friend, but I'm just not having the, just not making the connections.

One of the, one of the real.

Practical things that I found is to find somebody of the same sex, same gender, who has similar interests as you.

I call that the philia or the.

Iron that sharpens the iron.

This is somebody and someone.

Seek out a friend.

But also don't be afraid to test.

A friendship because not everybody that thinks that they want to be your friend should be your close friend.

Okay, I don't, I don't mind testing friendships.

You might want to, for example, just share something.

Excuse me, Share something of a personal nature.

But that if it was revealed, it wouldn't be the end of your life.

But you know, for example, just say, hey, you know, I, I really like all kinds of things, but I just don't really like that steam fried asparagus.

I just can't stand that.

And then you wait around for a.

Week or so and hear.

And then someone might come up to you and say, wow, I heard the funniest thing about you that you don't like that steamed asparagus.

Well, you think I'm going to share.

My deepest, darkest inner heart with that person?

No.

I can be friendly, but I'm not going to be close friends.

Sure.

And allow some time to pass as you try to test out a friendship.

And then if it's a true friend, you begin to share.

I'm sorry about my voice.

I'm coming down with this congestion.

So cold.

You're good.

Kind of like sound like a raspy Johnny Cash, you know, but, but you begin to share at a pretty equal level with each other.

Now that's a friendship.

That's different from say like a mentor or a coach.

That mentor, coach is probably not going to share at an equal level that you do.

But a friend.

Comes alongside.

They know how to listen.

Aaron, that is maybe the greatest lost art of listening because oftentimes we'll share something and that other person is not really listening.

They're just thinking of how they're going to reply when I stop talking.

And if the person really is listening, what they'll do is say something like, well, this is what I hear you saying.

Or would you tell me more about it?

Or would you say the same thing in a different way?

And you ask A second question and a third question.

And stay out of your own autobiography long enough to get into the world of the other.

And if you'll do that, what will happen is it'll draw that person out.

And then the other thing is not just summarize what they've said, but also be comfortable with a little bit of silence.

Because sometimes a person is really getting in touch with perhaps a strong emotion and they're starting to go deep.

But if you interrupt them too quickly and you start to share your own autobiography or, oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Let me tell you about my experience.

Oh, that conversation is pretty much over.

Wow.

And so you listen, you summarize, you allow some silence.

You listen carefully the way that people use words.

So if someone starts out as phrase and says, well, you know, I would really love to serve the Lord and do anything that the Lord wants me to do, but.

And then whatever comes after the but negates whatever's before the but.

So you have to listen to those words like but, you know, or if.

Or one of the things I listen to is talking sometimes with people about sin, and they will say something like, well, I don't want to.

Well, how about I'm not going to.

You don't see the little subtleties of those differences.

Right.

That's from 53, 000 hours of listening to people.

You listen to little subtleties, and then you watch eye contact, you watch tone of voice, how fast the person speaks.

Sometimes people talk a lot as a way.

As a way of defense without,.

You.

Know, taking the time to listen to the other as well.

So the fine art of listening, reflecting silence, reviewing, asking a second and a third question, are really valuable personal tools.

So, Dr. Don, if someone, maybe someone, they're trying to listen, but if someone is sharing, they're sharing some feelings and they're uncomfortable with their own feelings, and so then they're uncomfortable with the other person's feelings, and they start squirming and they're saying, well, I'm not really a feelings person.

And they want to.

They.

They're squirming and they're just trying to think, how can I get this to talk about baseball or talk about football?

Yeah.

Yes.

So how do you.

How do you grow in your ability to be comfortable with people being honest with you and sharing their true feelings and being a safe place where people.

You can listen without feeling like you got to divert it or come back to your safe place?

Is that safe place?

Safe conversations are like news, weather, sports, Politics.

In our case, the Browns are the guardians, or the West Virginia Volunteers in your case.

That's right.

Okay.

Those are all things.

But you may just want to say,.

You know, would it be possible for.

Us just to get a little bit beyond that and kind of scrape that away and really get to, like, what's.

Really going on in your life?

You know, I really want to hear what's.

What's happening in your life.

What's.

What's really important to you.

I'd like to know what you're thinking about.

Who are you listening to?

What are you reading?

What are some thoughts?

What is God saying to you in these days?

Those are really great questions to ask.

And then ask a second and a third question.

And if someone responds, stay out of.

Your autobiography and your desire to jump.

In with one of your experiences and ask them a second question.

Well, what was that like?

Or say the same thing in a different way.

I'm giving you all the great tools of communication.

These are great.

They are excellent.

And it's the reasons.

Do we go back to our autobiography because we feel safe and we feel in control because you shared that we don't want to do that.

The human reason that we come back, is it because we're.

We feel safe with our story and we want to share our story, or is it.

We want to be heard?

Or maybe there's multiple reasons, but.

Yeah, I think there's multiple reasons, Aaron.

I think sometimes people assume that they're identifying with what a person is saying if they can tell a similar story.

Okay, okay.

You've.

You've gone, you know, let's say you've.

Had a heart, a physical situation.

Yeah, well, like, no, the better thing.

To do is, what was that like for you?

How did that challenge your faith?

How did you get through that?

What would.

What would.

Where was God during that difficult season?

Help me to learn from you.

Yeah.

Help me to learn from your experience rather than jumping again with my experience.

But that's the thing we always do.

I hear that all the time.

Someone will share something and say, oh, yeah, I know exactly what you feel.

And they start sharing out of their own.

Yeah.

And there's.

There may be a time for that later.

Yeah.

You know, you may.

Later down the road, you may say, hey, I wouldn't mind taking some time just to share with you an experience that I've had that I can relate to you.

But don't do that as your second and third question.

Okay.

Listen carefully.

First.

Yeah, that's good to know the timing of it.

And as you said, I, I, I would admit that there are times in my life that I, I go there too.

I think it's more when I'm tired.

I learned from you.

Tired, angry, lonely.

What is it?

Lonely, bored, anxious and depressed.

There you go.

When those, when those things are going on, then I think I'm, I'm not as good a listener or a communicator for sure.

So the acronym is halt.

H, A, L, T, B, A, D.

Hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored, anxious, depressed, halt Bad.

Wow.

Those are times when we're not really good listeners at that time.

So somebody's listening.

Not even be really good friends at that time.

No spouses, probably not really good human beings at that time.

Or dog owners, cat owners, pet owners, either.

Yes, that's right.

So if someone is, they're saying, you know, I really want to listen, but I'm afraid if I listen to somebody, I'm going to condone their behavior.

If I listen to them, I'm agreeing, I'm agreeing with what they're, they're doing.

That's so true.

Any thoughts?

So let me just say this to the listeners.

Acceptance is not equal to approval.

That might be just something to remember.

I can accept a lot of things that I don't approve of.

Okay.

I can.

Jesus was a prime example of that.

The woman at the well, when he saw her, he loved her, he cared for her, he accepted her.

Obviously he didn't approve of the fact that she had been in and out of five marriages and hadn't even bothered to bury the guy she was with.

But that woman knew that she was loved and accepted and that is what drew her to the love of Christ.

And so you can listen to someone and you can say, I'm going to try to really understand the world through your eyes.

It's not that I necessarily approve of what you're doing or the choices that you're making, but I do want you to know that I'm listening to you.

I've had to do that with people, for example, who have had to struggle with gender identity issues.

Okay.

And for example, just say, I would really like to know what your life experience has been like.

In just about every case, there's been some kind of woundedness or pain that has our rejection or being mocked or made fun of.

And if you can get into that part of their world, you're not approving of choices that they make.

But you're accepting them as someone that God loves.

Yeah.

Would that be the same for parents, that maybe their kids are making decisions, adult children are making decisions that they're not necessarily.

They don't approve of.

How do they navigate that?

Listening to their kids and accepting them for who they are as their child and as their, you know, someone they love?

Yeah.

In the same time, the feeling like if I listen and I accept them, then I'm going.

They're going to take that as approval.

Is that.

Is that approval?

Yeah.

Oh, that's a really fair question.

And I basically say the same thing.

I'd say, look, if.

But if your kids know that you really care enough to get into their world, you know, I'm.

I have a hard time understanding, you know, what you've done.

Yeah.

But I want to.

Really want to take the time right now, and I want to listen to you and I want to hear what your life has been like or what led you to making some of those decisions.

I honestly don't.

Be a good person of inquiry.

Be curious and show your curiosity to them rather than instantly saying, well, I know why you did this, and I know what you've done, and I know all of the reasons and jump to a conclusion.

We're told so often in scriptures to be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to be angry and listening.

I just keep coming back to that.

Aaron, what a gift.

Whether it's someone that's on the outside of our family or even someone that's on the inside, just listen.

Husbands and wives, be a better listener.

Listen to your kids.

You don't have to approve, and you can let them know.

I don't get it.

I don't understand it.

And I don't necessarily approve of the choices that you've made, but I do want, you know, in this space right now, I want to hear you.

Wow.

Yeah, it's.

It's a.

It's a thing to.

Benevolent.

Benevolent detachment.

What does.

What are those two.

What are those two words mean to you and thoughts on benevolent detachment?

Well, if you think about benevolent the.

Goodness, or I suppose a Greek word, that.

That.

That which in a person is truly good.

Okay.

But there.

But you can be good.

And there's a time when you may need to detach.

For example, if you're in an abusive relationship, you can love someone from a distance.

You have a prodigal child.

You might not have a choice but to love from a distance.

What I tell the parents that have a prodigal is keep the light on and don't stop feeding the fatted calf because you never know when they're going to come back.

Yeah.

And.

And then when they do, you know, you.

There's.

There's things that need to.

To be worked through.

But on the other hand, there are times when someone, even in scripture, at the end of Romans and numerous other places at the end of Jude, you know, there's places where you may need to confront somebody and you love them and you care for them, but you may have to have them step down, say, from a position of authority or leadership.

Or if someone's going off the trail or off the path, you may have to just grieve and cry and be tearful, but let them go for a season of time.

I think of Jesus, when he wept over Jerusalem, he just cried and he just said, oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem.

So often I would have gathered you together like a hen gathers her chicks, but you would not.

Wow.

And he allowed there to be that season of time, of going your own way.

Yeah.

It's hard.

Yeah.

But sometimes it's necessary.

And there are times when I suppose a maybe it's a West Virginia saying.

I'm not sure, but they used to say something like, if you don't listen, you'll have to feel.

And.

And that phrase, hey, listen, I want to instruct you.

I'll guide you.

I'll give you the best I've got.

I will love you.

And I really want to give you some good advice and counsel, but you may not want that from me.

Yeah.

And I'm going to give you some space and freedom to go your way.

Yeah.

And sometimes life can be a very, very harsh teacher.

The prodigal son learned that very quickly when he was slopping around with the pigs.

Yeah.

And he.

And of course, we all hope, as the scripture says, he came to himself.

That's a very interesting phrase.

He came to himself.

Like, what does that mean?

He's like.

He had like a wake up call, like, things.

This.

This is not the way I need to live my life.

But oftentimes, until the pain of remaining the same becomes greater than the pain of change.

Yeah.

Sometimes people will stay the same.

Yeah.

And pain is.

Pain's not the only predictor of change.

Okay.

But it is one of the most reliable ones.

Okay.

Interesting.

And until the pain of remaining the same becomes greater than the pain of change, sometimes people will tend to stay the same.

But when the pain becomes so great.

Yeah.

That's when I think, as a parent, you put the safety net about 2 inches off the ground.

You know, and you say, then, you know, I'm not going to keep bailing you out and I'm not going to keep rescuing.

And.

But there are certain things I will.

I'll make sure you have at least some food.

Yeah.

You know, or something like that.

Yeah.

But you have to sometimes have some benevolent detachment.

Yeah, yeah.

And you do benevolent detachment, not so that they go through pain intentionally, but you allow space and time for life circumstances and most importantly, the work of the Holy Spirit to speak to their heart.

Life circumstances and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Was that three.

Wow.

Wow, wow, wow.

When it comes to accountability, what does healthy accountability.

What does healthy accountability models look like?

You know, we've.

We've lived in a world where there's been misuse of spiritual authority and concerns about that.

And, and, and people would say, well, that was, it was just accountability structure, and we need accountability in our lives for sure.

Whether that's on multiple levels.

But when you think of healthy accountability, what.

What does that picture look like?

Well, let's say that someone's dealing with.

A besetting sin, you know, say a sexual sin or temptation or, you know,.

It could be any number of things.

I call them any.

Any kind of.

No God idols.

You know, it could be pornography, any number of things.

But let's say that I really am.

Convicted, that I need some help.

Yeah.

And so I say to you, Aaron,.

I am really going to submit to accountability.

And here's some questions I'm going to ask that you ask me on a regular basis.

And I'm going to be open and.

I'm going to be honest.

Let's say you say, you know, have.

You been with anyone or done things.

Anywhere that would appear to be compromising over this last week?

Have you entertained any inappropriate fantasies in your thought life?

Have you kept them there and active and indulged them?

Have you viewed or read anything that's sexually explicit in this case?

Have you gone there?

Have you decided to go off the path and go there?

Have you been with integrity in your financial dealings over this last week?

Have you spent time, really spent time deeply into the word of God and you've gotten before God?

You say, jesus, we're here today and I'm opening this word on a regular basis?

I really want you to be my teacher today.

Speak to me.

Have you done this on a regular basis over this past week?

And have I prioritized my family?

Sometimes people will confuse their work for God with their walk with God.

And it's really important that we have A close walk with God and then he'll help us with our work for God.

And then have you.

Probably one of the good questions to ask is, have you been honest with me or have you just lied to me?

So that's.

Those are.

Those are just some good questions to ask.

Have you found.

When you ask that question at the end, have you lied to me or you're honest with me?

If.

Will people.

Will they.

Does that kind of a come.

Will people actually say, no, I've lied to you, or I've not been on.

Well, they may have said, well, it's kind of like the old Colombo thing.

It's like, well, one more thing.

There might be just one more thing.

I didn't say, you know, or there's a little more information that I didn't talk about.

Yeah, but if you set the stage and you're a safe person and you're not there to condemn.

Yeah.

You're there to encourage and help and correct and use the word of God to teach and train and instruct and correct, you know, in the ways of righteousness.

You're not out to get them and you're not out to condemn them.

But there may be times when you have to speak a sharp word.

You know, I had to work with some people and to say, look, you said you were going to make your bed every day as one little tiny win, and you've decided not to do it.

And I don't.

I'm really not looking for excuses.

Yeah.

Just.

Did you.

Yes or no?

Yeah.

You know, that may seem like a small thing, but it's a small win, for example.

Yeah.

So that would be unhealthy then.

Unhealthy.

Accountability would look, be somebody that's out to get you, somebody's looking for retribution, somebody that's looking to, you know, pile.

On and shame, condemn.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

That would be unhealthy.

Okay.

You know, and how come you can never get it?

And how come you can never get it Right.

God's never going to use you.

That would be an unhealthy accountability.

Okay.

And is it.

Is choosing somebody to hold you accountable is the same as choosing a friend?

Is that the same thing as friendship?

Or is it.

Do you see it as.

I think.

Exactly.

I think it might be good to have somebody that's just a little further down the road.

Okay.

That's walked the path, the dirak, a little longer.

Okay.

Than you have, and to say, look, I. I really want to learn from you.

It's kind of like the disciples, when they were walking close to Jesus.

They said, we want to be walking so close to you that we're covered in your dust.

And I think that's so cool.

But just like, I want to learn from you and I want you.

I want you to ask me these questions, but I'm not expecting you to share with me at the same level a friendship you're likely going to be sharing with each other at pretty much the same level of disclosure.

Now, I can share all of these things with a close friend, but on the other hand, I'm going to expect that that friend is equally open and honest and transparent, whereas just a strict accountability partner.

I'm asking for help.

Like if someone.

I want to lose £20.

Yeah.

Well, I'm going to find someone that knows how to do it and hold me accountable, but I'm not really expecting them to tell me all of their secrets.

Yeah.

All their secrets.

Yeah.

Good deal.

Any question I should have asked you today on the subject of.

Of accountability, listening, ministry, benevolent detachment, any questions or any or anything else that you would like to share, but I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

This has been a powerful conversation.

Thank you.

Thanks, Aaron.

First of all, thank you to you and your precious wife for the tremendous commitment that you have for those that are on the front lines of our fellowship and to all of the missionaries that are out there.

I just.

I just want you to know that you're loved and that you're cared for.

And God has brought this couple along to care for your soul, to love you and help you.

And I just encourage you not to lose hope.

Don't lose.

Don't lose your call.

Don't lose your center.

Go back to the Lord often and say time that I know that I know that I had that call upon my life and I want to renew that call.

I'm dedicated to you, Lord Jesus, and I'm going to do your will.

And I just ask you to help me along the way to do the very best I can, to love you, to serve you, to be faithful, and to walk in a sense of awe and a sense of holiness before you.

And I believe, Jesus, that you will work through me for your glory.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

Will you pray for us?

I sure will, Father.

Thank you so much for our Lord Jesus Christ, for the fulfillment of your promise, for the seed that is Christ.

Thank you for the infilling and the empowerment of your Holy Spirit, Lord.

What a gift and what an absolute surety that we are yours and Jesus There will be a time, at just the right time, you will come for your bride.

Help us to be a bride that is ready, that is willing, that is eager, that's looking for your coming.

But until that time, you've given us a job to do to occupy until you come.

Help us to be faithful to teach all nations the goodness and to present the good news, and to teach everything that you've taught us.

Lord Jesus Christ, I pray for my brothers and sisters, for the families, for encouragement, for strength, for resilience, for dependency, for holiness, for Lord, just strength.

Lord, be with our brothers and sisters.

I pray, Lord, they're doing good work.

Let them know of your pleasure.

In Jesus name I pray.

Amen.

Amen.

Sam.