Slow down, sniff around: Sarah Fisher on ACE Free Work & understanding your dog

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by

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Yappily, where dog guardians meet real

talk expert advice and Waggy tails.

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I'm your host Nathan Dunleavy, and

today I'm gen, generally thrilled

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and so excited to be joined by

someone whose name has come up in

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so many of our previous episodes.

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Sarah Fisher is here.

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Sarah is a behaviour counselor

educator and the founder of Ace.

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Animal centered education and her

free work method has inspired dog

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professionals and pet guardians worldwide.

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It's all about understanding the dog

in front of you, not just managing

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behaviour, but seeing beneath it.

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Today we're talking about observation,

gentle guidance, trust building, and

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what it really means to walk beside

your dog rather than control them.

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If you've ever felt like there's

something more, your dog's trying

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to tell you, this one's for you.

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So grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

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welcome back to The Yappy

Hour, powered by Yappily.

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I'm your host, Nathan D.

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Levy, and I'm so excited to bring you

another episode of The Yappy Hour Today.

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Even more exciting that we have the

amazing Sarah Fisher joining us today.

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Hi Sarah.

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Welcome to the Yappy Hour.

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How are you?

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Sarah Fisher: Hi Nathan.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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I'm great.

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Thank you.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

You are most welcome.

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You are very busy lady, and I appreciate

you taking the time to well spend

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your, we're recording on Friday

evening in, in, in June, well, July.

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No, it's early July.

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July now.

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And I appreciate you taking the time

'cause you are very busy lady and I'm

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just been so looking forward to this chat.

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So, Sarah ace free work, we're gonna

be chatting all about ACE free work.

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So for our listeners and viewers, ACE

stands for Animal Centered Education.

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Sarah, for those dog guardians

who have never heard of free

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work, how oh, actually I'm asking

the, the wrong question to start.

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That's because I've got so

excited that I've chatted to you.

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I've literally gone in

like on the wrong question.

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Right.

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Wee ride.

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Brilliant.

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Right.

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Anyway, how did your passion for

animal behaviour and welfare begin?

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Please, Sarah.

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Sarah Fisher: Oh, great question.

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Right back in childhood,

both of my parents, both pate

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grandparents had animals.

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Dogs were a huge part of our lives for

generations, and my father in particular

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would always remind me that the animals

that were part of our family were

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there because we'd invited them in.

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They hadn't chosen to be with

us, and as a result, we had to

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always put their needs first.

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He was also obsessive, but really,

really, you know, instilled in me that

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need for animals to have access to

fresh water at all times, to have their

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needs met, took care of our own needs.

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And so that whole connection with

animals and choice and being sentient

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beings and being a, you know, a very

much valued part of our family was

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instilled in me in a, in a very early age.

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And my Aunt Labrador

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Love that.

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Sarah Fisher: in the left hip.

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And as a child I was told

we could, you know, pet him.

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If he enjoyed that, we

could engage with him.

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But we were not to touch him on the

left hip because it was uncomfortable.

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And if he growled, we would be

the ones that got into trouble.

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So, you know, just so much knowledge

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: from a really

early age that I think drives

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Yeah, I absolutely love that.

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Love that so much.

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I'm a, I'm a bit of a late bloomer.

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I didn't get my first dog

tour about 10 years ago.

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And now I'm obsessed

because I've got seven dogs.

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So, like the crazy dog man.

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Sarah Fisher: That to me, my

parents wouldn't lemme have

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, it is.

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Sarah Fisher: Yeah.

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Sorry.

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My parents wouldn't let me have a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

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Sarah Fisher: when I was young,

so they didn't want me to, you

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know, grow out of the pony and

then we'd have to rehome the pony.

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That would be too awful.

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And we couldn't have afforded two

ponies, so I wasn't allowed one.

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So as soon as I was able to

start collecting horses, I did.

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And at one point, I think we had 15.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Brilliant horse collection.

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Well, I, yeah, I waited until I met my

husband and we've got a house together.

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'cause I'd lived in a flat and I

was like, right, we've got a house.

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We're settling down, getting a dog.

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Sarah Fisher: Good.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

then seven dogs later here we are.

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Sarah Fisher: Life's

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I love it.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

brilliant.

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It is complete.

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Yeah.

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We wouldn't have it any other way.

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So Sarah, thank you so much.

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What led you to the development

of ACE Free work please?

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Sarah Fisher: Nathan, that's

an hour long answer in itself.

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I, I have been known to speak for

45 minutes without drawing breath,

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answering one question as people that

have heard me speak before can confirm.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

You said that offline.

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Sarah Fisher: Yeah, so a lot.

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I think big part of free work

is influenced by my childhood.

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Again, when I was on holiday in Portugal

with my family, long before Portugal

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became a tourist destination and hotspot,

we would rent a villa in this tiny town

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that's now, I'm sure, hugely popular.

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And my sister and parents would

be sunbathing on the beach.

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And I'd be off exploring the rock

pools in the company of some of the

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street dogs, and they were free roaming

dogs that belong to the community.

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And I would kind of be adopted by

a dog, or maybe I adopted a dog I'd

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have a companion every day for the

fortnight that we would be there.

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And it, it just.

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Was just the richest part of,

excuse me, I've got hiccups that

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hit holiday experience for me.

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Didn't have any toys,

didn't have any food.

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It was just the joy of exploring.

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the same at home.

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I was lucky enough to buy my

own dog when I was 11 with money

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that I'd been gifted in a will.

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I also had sort of collected a number

of dogs from our local neighborhood

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who I would take up onto Eps and Downs

where I grew up and enjoy their company.

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Just exploring and roaming, you know,

thank you to all the adults that did

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give me the, you know, they're, they're

companions to go off and spend many

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happy hours exploring the downs with.

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I think that kind of freedom, that

connection, that exploring, that joy

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of just being in the company of dogs.

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And I've been, I've been

obsessed with animals since I.

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As far as I can remember,

so that exploration element,

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100% influences free work.

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Then my original background human

massage, anatomy and physiology and

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supporting people who, who are, you

know, faced with losing their children.

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It was due to a friend of mine

whose child was dying from a brain

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tumor and spent a lot of time at

Great or Ormond Street Hospital.

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of sent me on that path of looking

at human health and wellbeing

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and how if you can't influence

an outcome, what can you do?

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We get a bit fixated on outcomes

as a culture, but particularly

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in the animal education world.

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And of course in that environment

you can't change the outcome, but

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you can support and hold and connect

in a nonverbal way with people that

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are facing the most horrendous.

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Element of, you know, being,

being a parent, you don't

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expect to outlive your child.

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So within that, there was a lot

of learning about the connection

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between emotions and physicality.

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friend would walk into me and in the horse

world that would be classed as dominance,

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the animal not respecting your space.

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And I just remember that she was so

physically out of balance because

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of the emotional toll she was under.

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She had no concept of awareness of

how she was navigating the corridors

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of Great Ormond Street Hospital.

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And from that human learning took me

off down other paths that were really

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relevant to how we connect with animals.

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also spent time doing learning, doing and

teaching tea touch so that also part of my

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,

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Sarah Fisher: background

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: lovely.

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Sarah Fisher: looking at how we

could help dogs settle in the space

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that we'd created at Tilly Farm when

they were new in that environment.

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So for my one-to-ones, I would have kind

of enrichment engagements ready, but

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this was before the snuffle mat existed.

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you even imagine life

before snuffle nights?

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And people would say, oh,

my dog's not interested.

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dog's not interested in things like this.

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We've tried for, you know, foraging

and the nose and everything, and

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I, I would raise the stuff off the

ground so it wasn't at floor height.

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And suddenly these dogs were

really interested not to the

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amazement of their caregiver.

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Because if a dog's physically and or

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: and the two often go

together uncomfortable, they don't

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feel safe putting their nose to

the ground changing the way they

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were able to engage with those

items, not only help the dog relax.

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helped the caregiver relax.

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learning easier for both

the caregiver and the dog.

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also what was really noticeable was the

caregiver would share more of their story

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and their struggle with their companion.

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And the companion struggle with me earlier

on in the session opposed to as many

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people will know, of skirting around the

major that is causing such disruption in

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their life and only mentioning that at

the end or towards the end of the session.

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And it's a really common thing

that we have to build up trust.

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The person might only share more

significant when they know they've

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got what I call the get out clause.

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It's time to leave, and we

were having amazing outcomes.

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'cause the dogs were so

relaxed when we moved

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: areas of the

farm, the relaxed lead walking

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was like almost instant.

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They were less hypervigilant

looking for wildlife.

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They were able just to stand

and process the sight of my

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or the wildlife on the farm.

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they were kind of sowing the seeds

for what we'd now call free work.

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And now it's this amazing

integrated method by cookie Dough

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Dynamo who joined me in 2008,

and Henry who joined me in: 2000

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17 and cookie dough found

the world overstimulating.

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And she totally changed the direction

that I was moving in when it

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came to canine education because

people were saying, train more.

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Train more.

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would navigate the world with her teeth,

and she's only little All terrier.

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She's an amazing dog,

super fast processor.

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And I did fall into that trap.

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But then I realized really quickly

in teaching her lots of skills.

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A, she was brighter than me.

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B, she was always gonna be faster

at learning than I could ever be.

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And CI actually wasn't

helping her find contentment,

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connection, peace, tranquility.

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All I was doing was redirecting the

way she interacted with her world.

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Into different scenarios,

onto different objects.

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So teaching her to engage

with toys saved my skin.

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I was black and blue, saved

my trouser legs, saved

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: you know, my shirt collar.

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But it didn't help her calmer

and safer in sensory world.

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I was integrating my human knowledge with

that and knowing the benefits of sensory.

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Input for people that had some form of

cognitive dysfunction or disconnection

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to, you know, some areas of their

body due to injury or disease states.

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I then looked more into that and came

across the work of Gene Ays, who was

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an American psychologist who developed

sensory integration theory, a way of

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supporting children and people with

learning struggles, including with

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sensory overload and sensory overload.

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And that was the real start of free

work, bringing everything in together.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: added even more

structure to that in: 2017

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So it's become structured method

of supporting dogs and enhancing

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education in its own right.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Wow.

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Fascinating.

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Wow, you answered that one a

lot quicker than 45 minutes.

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Sarah Fisher: I am trying,

Nathan, I'm trying.

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I've

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

doing well.

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Sarah Fisher: Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No, please.

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Sarah Fisher: Be

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No, don't you worry.

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No, don't you worry.

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I absolutely love it.

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I've got a cookie, not a cookie

day, but we have a cookie, so

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I'm glad you've got a cookie day.

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Sarah Fisher: I like that.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

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Sarah, do you know what Ace and

Ace Free work, and you have been

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mentioned in so many past episodes

of the Yappy Hour, everyone says

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ACE Free Work and Sarah Fisher.

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What does it mean to you seeing

the reach and impact that it's.

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Sarah Fisher: It, it really, it

really moves me and it really

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humbles me because I spend.

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of my life in a glorious ace bubble,

connecting with people that are

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looking for this, learning, this way

of supporting, this way, of improving

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observations and enhancing the lives

of their animals, and obviously

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enhancing that relationship and,

and their life with their animal.

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So I, I, I am blessed with an amazing ace

community of incredible teachers, people

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that have been there from the beginning,

my amazing ace instructor, colleague

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Sarah with, who's been there for 17,

18 years, since we started to explore

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: of these concepts with the

dogs of Baty, where I first met Sarah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: I see that reach, I see the

feedback, I see the joy of new students

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seeing their dogs through new eyes.

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But I have no concept other than

that of how far this spreads.

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And when somebody said to me

recently, you have, you have no idea

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how many people talk about this.

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It, it kind.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yep.

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Sarah Fisher: it, I'm not often lost

for words, Nathan, but it really

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, bless.

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Sarah Fisher: quite extraordinary

and really moving because I don't

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think I have developed free work.

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I don't believe I own free work.

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the dogs that have been a part of my

life and the horses too have shown

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me power of standing back watching.

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More and doing less particularly

Cookie Dough and Henry

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

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Sarah Fisher: a dog at

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

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Sarah Fisher: showed me the value

of having different textures

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on defer that saved his life.

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And these amazing animals are

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

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Sarah Fisher: honored and they're

changing lives, and they're saving

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lives through all they shared with me.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: to me is a

very humbling experience.

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And yeah, I, I can't believe how far

it's and how many lives it touches and

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It.

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Sarah Fisher: I.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It really has.

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So literally every episode you

get mentioned and so does Ace.

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So I was desperate to get you on and

I know, you know you've been so busy

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and like, and I'm just so honored

that you took the time to meet with

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me today because like I say, everyone

said, oh, you have to get Sarah on.

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And everyone was talking

about Sarah and Ace.

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And obviously I know about you through

Andrew and some other colleagues and,

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and I was just desperate to speak to

you 'cause I've got like, I, I follow

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you as well and I've got one of your

books and yeah, it's just, I'm just

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really honored that you've come on.

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So I feel a bit starstruck myself,

but it, no, it's been lovely that

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it gets mentioned on most episodes.

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Sarah Fisher: You are, you're so lovely.

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I'm so, I, I just get to meet

incredible people like you and

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wherever we are on that learning

journey, no one has more knowledge.

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We've just got different knowledge and

different experience, and obviously

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really close friends like Andy Hale,

you know, to be able to share the same

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space with people like Andy's and some

of my amazing ACE colleagues as well.

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People like Sarah Heath, amazing

veterinary behaviourists,

313

: 00:17:58

who I've known for 30 years.

314

: 00:18:01

Just feel

315

: 00:18:02

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

316

: 00:18:03

Sarah Fisher: I have been given such

a great gift through connecting with

317

: 00:18:09

these amazing, forgiving and giving

animals and more and more voices

318

: 00:18:14

that are sharing the same message.

319

: 00:18:16

Just empower other

320

: 00:18:18

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

321

: 00:18:19

Sarah Fisher: to really reconsider

how they connect with animals and

322

: 00:18:23

live alongside animals and really

help them reframe their thinking and

323

: 00:18:28

question some existing beliefs that

we've kind of all gone along with and

324

: 00:18:34

repeated without necessarily stepping

325

: 00:18:37

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

326

: 00:18:37

Sarah Fisher: and saying, on a minute,

is this a human led experience?

327

: 00:18:44

Or is dog actually trying to share

different with us or would find it easier

328

: 00:18:52

if we took time to stand back and learn

from them instead of rushing in with

329

: 00:18:57

our tips and ideas for problem solving?

330

: 00:19:01

And that was something

Cookie Dough taught,

331

: 00:19:03

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

332

: 00:19:04

Sarah Fisher: me.

333

: 00:19:04

Instead of me thinking, oh, oh, I

334

: 00:19:07

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

335

: 00:19:07

Sarah Fisher: can teach you

this and I can give you this

336

: 00:19:10

experience and that will help you.

337

: 00:19:12

It was like, stop.

338

: 00:19:13

Just stop.

339

: 00:19:14

does cookie

340

: 00:19:15

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

341

: 00:19:16

Sarah Fisher: to navigate her world?

342

: 00:19:18

Where are the gaps in her learning

343

: 00:19:20

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

344

: 00:19:21

Sarah Fisher: How can I extend her

sensory reference library, giving

345

: 00:19:27

her complete control of that learning

experience that the world is not quite

346

: 00:19:33

as overwhelming and as overstimulating

as it is for this 20 week old.

347

: 00:19:39

Puppy who's come through Batey

to me as her fifth foster home.

348

: 00:19:45

And I just

349

: 00:19:46

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

350

: 00:19:47

Sarah Fisher: I just

351

: 00:19:48

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Bless.

352

: 00:19:49

Sarah Fisher: people like you, Nathan,

who are part of that sharing of

353

: 00:19:54

these incredible adventures that we

can have together and exciting new

354

: 00:19:58

discoveries and really supporting

people saying, you're not alone.

355

: 00:20:03

If you are seeing what we are seeing

and if what we are saying is really

356

: 00:20:08

resonating with you, but you haven't

maybe had the courage to stand up and

357

: 00:20:14

say, I've learned, what I am being taught

been a great experience, but it's not

358

: 00:20:22

right for me and my animal companion.

359

: 00:20:26

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

360

: 00:20:27

Yeah.

361

: 00:20:28

They're our greatest

teachers, aren't they?

362

: 00:20:30

And I just love when you say, you know,

we just need, we just need to slow down.

363

: 00:20:36

Less is more.

364

: 00:20:37

Observe and listen,

that's all we need to do.

365

: 00:20:40

Sarah Fisher: One thing I'm

366

: 00:20:42

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, brilliant.

367

: 00:20:42

Right.

368

: 00:20:43

We're gonna move.

369

: 00:20:43

Sarah Fisher: sorry.

370

: 00:20:45

One thing, I'm sure I've,

371

: 00:20:46

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, go on.

372

: 00:20:47

Please do.

373

: 00:20:47

Sarah Fisher: yeah.

374

: 00:20:48

One thing, for example, in free work,

basically free work, think some enrichment

375

: 00:20:54

engagements alongside education with

exploration with the dog being the

376

: 00:21:01

pilot of their home learning experience.

377

: 00:21:04

And our role air traffic controller

to guide them back to a safer

378

: 00:21:09

flight path if necessary, or maybe

be their co-pilot from time to

379

: 00:21:14

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I love.

380

: 00:21:14

Sarah Fisher: And we call what we would

create as a snuffling opportunity or

381

: 00:21:20

as a licking opportunity, a station.

382

: 00:21:22

So we might have a base and then a topper.

383

: 00:21:25

That could be a range of snuffle

mats, different silicon mats.

384

: 00:21:29

So we kind of create all these

different layouts and then.

385

: 00:21:35

We can modify that rule of,

you know, not rule of thumb.

386

: 00:21:38

Little, little tip.

387

: 00:21:40

Generally you don't want

the station higher than the

388

: 00:21:43

top of the dog's front leg.

389

: 00:21:44

So it's not about the dog

stretching and it's not about the

390

: 00:21:48

dog necessarily having to bend and

pick everything up off the floor.

391

: 00:21:52

We do put treats on the floor so

the dog doesn't have to approach

392

: 00:21:57

something that may be visually very

different, anything that might be a

393

: 00:22:01

novel texture before they're ready.

394

: 00:22:03

And then we just kind of hang back

395

: 00:22:05

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

396

: 00:22:06

Sarah Fisher: the dog's happy

to explore on their own.

397

: 00:22:08

But one, and we see these

398

: 00:22:10

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

399

: 00:22:11

Sarah Fisher: patterns that we just have

never observed in any other context, but

400

: 00:22:16

the dogs have been doing them in other

contexts, but we just haven't really

401

: 00:22:20

been aware it's not been on our radar.

402

: 00:22:22

And the main thing, one of the

main things how people choose to

403

: 00:22:26

greet people and pick up that data.

404

: 00:22:29

And I 100% will have.

405

: 00:22:31

Talked about or shared maybe taught, oh

yeah, put your hand down, let the dog

406

: 00:22:38

come and sniff the back of your hand.

407

: 00:22:40

when we actually watch dogs in

free work, guess what, Nathan?

408

: 00:22:44

They don't do that.

409

: 00:22:46

What they do is they

explore their environment.

410

: 00:22:50

The anxious dogs more likely to

explore in an anti-clockwise direction.

411

: 00:22:58

Not all, but a strong.

412

: 00:23:00

Number, you know, high proportion

of anxious dogs navigate the space

413

: 00:23:05

in anti-clockwise So A, how does

that fit with what we might do when

414

: 00:23:11

we're out and the dog's on a leash?

415

: 00:23:12

Because traditionally we handle our

dogs on our left, so we are more

416

: 00:23:15

likely to turn a dog to the right

interrupt their needs to explore

417

: 00:23:20

moving in an anti-clockwise direction.

418

: 00:23:22

Some dogs need to stick to the

boundary, the wall, first of all.

419

: 00:23:27

So how can we replicate that?

420

: 00:23:30

We need to avoid taking those dogs

across open park land, keep to a

421

: 00:23:35

hedge, you know, see what the dog

needs when they're in a new space.

422

: 00:23:40

And once they then start to explore

free work, what they do is they just

423

: 00:23:44

casually glance towards maybe two

or three people, or maybe only one.

424

: 00:23:50

Never the whole group back and

forage in one of our very creative

425

: 00:23:56

stations, and we named them after

the dogs that inspired them.

426

: 00:24:01

Then they lift their head up

and air sense towards, go back

427

: 00:24:05

to foraging and exploring.

428

: 00:24:07

Then they start this casual walk

by just one or two people, even if

429

: 00:24:13

there's five or 10 people in the room.

430

: 00:24:15

Then they go back to exploration, and

then when they're ready, they come and

431

: 00:24:20

start sensing if they're emotionally

and physically comfortable enough

432

: 00:24:23

to do it, the shoe and lower leg.

433

: 00:24:27

Then they might walk by another person.

434

: 00:24:31

Then they return maybe in a

second session, maybe in the first

435

: 00:24:35

session and sent from the hip up.

436

: 00:24:38

Picking up more data from the trunk

of the person before they orientate

437

: 00:24:43

themselves in a way that they can

air accent the person's breath.

438

: 00:24:48

Hardly any dog, unless there's

been a really strong reinforcement

439

: 00:24:52

history, approaches the people first.

440

: 00:24:55

They all explore first.

441

: 00:24:58

Hardly any dog comes and

actually sniffs the hand.

442

: 00:25:01

And the only time they may sniff the

hand is maybe that person has already

443

: 00:25:06

engaged with their dog and has been

laying food out in their free work.

444

: 00:25:11

And then when you see

this, you can't unsee it.

445

: 00:25:15

So we see it in the shelter, we see it

with puppies, we see it with dogs outside.

446

: 00:25:20

When unfamiliar people are maybe

in that space, some dogs will

447

: 00:25:27

wait till the person's left to

then scent where that person was

448

: 00:25:30

standing, and it's mind blowing.

449

: 00:25:34

So where did we get concept that

dogs want to come and scent our hand?

450

: 00:25:40

not criticizing that.

451

: 00:25:42

I'm not saying it might not be a

useful skill to teach some dogs, but we

452

: 00:25:49

have missed so many amazing patterns.

453

: 00:25:54

So many beautiful, nuanced.

454

: 00:25:57

Engagement.

455

: 00:25:58

So many subtle conversations free work

literally puts a spotlight on everything.

456

: 00:26:06

What dogs

457

: 00:26:07

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

458

: 00:26:07

Sarah Fisher: to do when they're starting

a session, many times they might repeat

459

: 00:26:11

an engagement if we invite them to

engage with us so we can add some life

460

: 00:26:17

skills into that foundation of free work.

461

: 00:26:20

What does a dog do

462

: 00:26:22

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

463

: 00:26:23

Sarah Fisher: when they need to stop?

464

: 00:26:25

Take a rest.

465

: 00:26:27

go out to the bathroom, may

maybe have a break completely.

466

: 00:26:35

They finish finished.

467

: 00:26:36

Clues are also clear, but they're so

easy to overlook and muddle up with a

468

: 00:26:42

dog wanting to learn more or do more.

469

: 00:26:45

And the other amazing thing that's

come out of free work is the majority

470

: 00:26:50

of dogs will engage in explore

free work for about 17 minutes.

471

: 00:26:56

And then they need to stop and process.

472

: 00:26:59

And this is well documented in humans.

473

: 00:27:02

TED Talks are only 18 minutes long.

474

: 00:27:06

So how can we then break down the learning

experience for puppies, adolescent

475

: 00:27:12

dogs, dogs and shelters that may never

have learned any life skill at all?

476

: 00:27:18

In one-to-ones, we obviously

can't say, Hey, come and

477

: 00:27:21

join a 17 minute puppy class.

478

: 00:27:24

one's gonna do it.

479

: 00:27:25

But we can break that learning

experience down into 12 to 15, 17 minute

480

: 00:27:32

little time budgets, and then follow

that through with access to a chew.

481

: 00:27:39

when dogs are processing in free

work, what they tend to pick up

482

: 00:27:43

are the bigger crunchier treats.

483

: 00:27:46

It's a part of a sensory experience,

and we need to think of food.

484

: 00:27:51

Way beyond being a treat or re reward.

485

: 00:27:54

It's a sensory experience.

486

: 00:27:58

a way of really supporting that dog

accelerating, enhancing, learning.

487

: 00:28:02

But the dog will choose what they find

rewarding, not what we think might be a

488

: 00:28:08

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

489

: 00:28:09

Sarah Fisher: for them.

490

: 00:28:12

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

491

: 00:28:12

Love that.

492

: 00:28:13

It's all about the dog cheese in.

493

: 00:28:15

Sarah Fisher: Yep.

494

: 00:28:15

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

495

: 00:28:16

If a guardian's never heard of free

work, how would you describe it?

496

: 00:28:19

In simple terms?

497

: 00:28:22

Sarah Fisher: I would think about

it being of enriching engagement.

498

: 00:28:28

So we're gonna create

499

: 00:28:30

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

500

: 00:28:30

Sarah Fisher: for the dogs to forage

and chew and lick and explore.

501

: 00:28:34

Scent, don't have to use food.

502

: 00:28:37

We can create really exciting, novel,

free work setups with household items.

503

: 00:28:45

You know, my dogs always used to enjoy.

504

: 00:28:47

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

505

: 00:28:48

Sarah Fisher: Laundry day or when I would

come home with bags or shopping, or if

506

: 00:28:53

I'd been in the company of other dogs

and giving them the time to really pick

507

: 00:28:57

up that scent data is really important.

508

: 00:29:00

So we can create amazing

509

: 00:29:01

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

510

: 00:29:02

Sarah Fisher: setups from household

items that are obviously safe and stable.

511

: 00:29:06

So we would put out three

512

: 00:29:08

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

513

: 00:29:09

Sarah Fisher: different types of

stations to begin with and just let

514

: 00:29:12

the dog explore and think enrichment.

515

: 00:29:17

really consider is it a really enriching

engagement on a physical level and

516

: 00:29:23

a cognitive and emotional level.

517

: 00:29:26

Because sometimes with videos that I see

online, and this isn't a criticism, I

518

: 00:29:32

applaud anyone that's to trying to add

value to their dog's life and meet their

519

: 00:29:37

intrinsic needs, but sometimes those

520

: 00:29:41

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

521

: 00:29:41

Sarah Fisher: offerings.

522

: 00:29:43

physically because the dog's painful

or they're creating frustration.

523

: 00:29:50

So if I see teeth marks on anything

including like a silicon mat for, for

524

: 00:29:56

licking, or I see the dog biting at that,

525

: 00:29:59

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

526

: 00:29:59

Sarah Fisher: may not be leaving

teeth marks, what I see is body

527

: 00:30:04

tension, frustration, not a

rewarding experience at all.

528

: 00:30:09

So free work brings

529

: 00:30:11

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

530

: 00:30:13

Sarah Fisher: elements that the

dogs enjoy, but with it added of

531

: 00:30:18

observations so we can ensure it's a

532

: 00:30:22

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

533

: 00:30:22

Sarah Fisher: rewarding

engagement on every single level.

534

: 00:30:26

And I think it meets dogs' needs

and it also engages every part

535

: 00:30:31

of them, including, you know,

their amazing sensory systems.

536

: 00:30:39

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

537

: 00:30:39

Brilliant.

538

: 00:30:40

I love that you've touched on observation

because that's, oh, I don't mind at all.

539

: 00:30:45

I love it.

540

: 00:30:46

Observation, the power of

observations, our next section.

541

: 00:30:49

So why is observation such a

key part to the ACE approach?

542

: 00:30:55

Sarah Fisher: we've just started

teaching module one, so that's

543

: 00:30:58

our, part of our animal centered

education training program.

544

: 00:31:03

And we finished a module

three the week before.

545

: 00:31:06

Module one is just about

the intro of observations.

546

: 00:31:09

Looking at your dog's ear position,

looking at how they organize their

547

: 00:31:15

limbs at the stations in free work.

548

: 00:31:17

How do they navigate that space?

549

: 00:31:20

Do they need to explore

in an anti-clockwise way?

550

: 00:31:24

How can we take that learning

into all areas of a dog's life?

551

: 00:31:28

happening with their coat?

552

: 00:31:30

Because it was a dog in the

: 1990

553

: 00:31:34

of the R-S-P-C-A showed me how.

554

: 00:31:39

coat is influenced by what's going on

in the structures beneath the coat.

555

: 00:31:45

So I, I used to do a whole

presentation on what lies beneath,

556

: 00:31:48

sort of talking about the story

and linking it in with, you know,

557

: 00:31:53

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

558

: 00:31:54

Sarah Fisher: films like Jaws and,

you know, sort of making anatomical

559

: 00:31:57

references and, and the whole

concept was what lies beneath?

560

: 00:32:01

Really helping guardians

561

: 00:32:02

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

562

: 00:32:03

Sarah Fisher: to say, hang on a

minute, my dog is pulling when on

563

: 00:32:08

the lead, not because of a lack

of learning, because they're front

564

: 00:32:13

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

565

: 00:32:14

Sarah Fisher: because they've

got mobility in the hind limbs.

566

: 00:32:19

So they've shunted their weight

567

: 00:32:21

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

568

: 00:32:21

Sarah Fisher: and they're pulling

themselves along from the four quarters

569

: 00:32:24

and the hair over the shoulders

and the neck is really exaggerated.

570

: 00:32:30

And I just thought that was part

of their natural coat pattern.

571

: 00:32:33

at the spread of the toes,

how the tail is being carried.

572

: 00:32:38

How do they carry their tongue?

573

: 00:32:40

the tongue and the tail are connected

through the fascia, they're also

574

: 00:32:46

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

575

: 00:32:47

Sarah Fisher: part of

the dog's balance system.

576

: 00:32:50

So it tells me when I meet a dog

whose history I might not know,

577

: 00:32:54

maybe when I used to do court

assessments, they've been seized.

578

: 00:32:58

I dunno anything about them.

579

: 00:32:59

They're, they're held in secure kennels.

580

: 00:33:01

Maybe they're in a shelter having

been picked up as a stray with no

581

: 00:33:05

history at all, it tells me a lot

more about where this dog is at

582

: 00:33:13

their mobility in there learning

experience, how they're responding to.

583

: 00:33:21

Some of the stuff we'll have out in free

work gives us so many more clues about all

584

: 00:33:25

these little threads that weave together

to create the more obvious picture coat

585

: 00:33:31

patterns are now widely recognized.

586

: 00:33:33

And it's thanks to a dog called Sandy

in the: 1990

587

: 00:33:39

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

588

: 00:33:39

Sarah Fisher: to, yeah, this incredible

story that is told just through the

589

: 00:33:43

dog's coat, nevermind everything else.

590

: 00:33:47

So we want to establish the

591

: 00:33:48

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

592

: 00:33:49

Sarah Fisher: We want to

establish a baseline for a dog.

593

: 00:33:52

And our module one students are saying,

oh my goodness, my dog crabs to the right.

594

: 00:33:58

Oh my goodness, I never noticed the

dog's ears were unlevel the ears

595

: 00:34:04

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

596

: 00:34:04

Sarah Fisher: neck.

597

: 00:34:05

The neck linked to balance, obviously,

and the dog will overuse that four

598

: 00:34:12

part of their body if they've got hip

issues, knee issues, lumbar spine issues.

599

: 00:34:17

So lots of dogs with unlevel ears.

600

: 00:34:20

Often have undiagnosed chronic pain in

the hind limb, and when we can help them

601

: 00:34:27

gather data for the vet, we can then have

obviously pain addressed, bring in other

602

: 00:34:33

people, veterinary physiotherapists,

and support all that through free work.

603

: 00:34:40

We have amazing outcomes where the le

ears become more level, the tail is

604

: 00:34:45

central instead of always hanging to

the left or the right, the tongue has

605

: 00:34:50

got more freedom of movement instead

of maybe always hanging to one side

606

: 00:34:55

because of a curve in the body where

the dog was trying to offload painful

607

: 00:34:59

structures, but it was so subtle, the

caregiver wa wasn't aware of it at all.

608

: 00:35:05

So observations are the starting

point, and they're an ongoing element

609

: 00:35:10

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

610

: 00:35:11

Sarah Fisher: And I really

encourage people to look

611

: 00:35:13

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

612

: 00:35:14

Sarah Fisher: photographs, look at still

photographs of your dog as a puppy.

613

: 00:35:18

Look at how they sit, how do they

organize their body when they need to

614

: 00:35:23

defecate, do they have to Do they have to,

615

: 00:35:31

you know, do sort of circular

movements or move forward?

616

: 00:35:36

Are they unable to maintain

that squat position?

617

: 00:35:39

That's all indicative of potential

chronic pain or poor balance.

618

: 00:35:44

And obviously the two are connected.

619

: 00:35:47

if they scratch the ground

after or defecating, they lift

620

: 00:35:52

one leg higher than the other?

621

: 00:35:54

Do they only scratch with one

limb they scratch their neck

622

: 00:36:00

response to wearing equipment or.

623

: 00:36:03

You know, if they've got some level of

discomfort or emotional concerns, do

624

: 00:36:08

they only scratch one side of their neck?

625

: 00:36:11

Is it because they can't

scratch with the other?

626

: 00:36:14

We, we start piecing all these

amazing clues together and people

627

: 00:36:19

in the first, you know, experiences

of ACE and free work have been able

628

: 00:36:25

to get the diagnosis of luxating

patella, hip dysplasia, lumbosacral

629

: 00:36:31

disease, even in young dogs that

630

: 00:36:35

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

631

: 00:36:35

Sarah Fisher: that you wouldn't

think would be suffering

632

: 00:36:38

from such chronic conditions.

633

: 00:36:40

And most of those dogs were

sensitive to unfamiliar people.

634

: 00:36:43

Some of them had a bite history.

635

: 00:36:45

And we share that emotional

journey in our zooms, in our

636

: 00:36:50

practical workshops at the farm.

637

: 00:36:53

You know, we, we literally weep

with relief for this dog and

638

: 00:36:57

this caregiver and this beautiful

639

: 00:37:01

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

640

: 00:37:02

Sarah Fisher: that's now able to

blossom because the animals pain free.

641

: 00:37:07

And then we have amazing people.

642

: 00:37:08

We have a veterinary

643

: 00:37:09

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

644

: 00:37:09

Sarah Fisher: teaches on one of the

modules, and Sarah Heath teaches as well.

645

: 00:37:13

So, know, it's all adding layers

to say, watching, keep watching.

646

: 00:37:20

And you know what, me

647

: 00:37:22

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

648

: 00:37:23

Sarah Fisher: people use the word,

oh, your dog doesn't respect you.

649

: 00:37:26

And they know, I don't,

I don't really listen

650

: 00:37:29

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

651

: 00:37:29

Sarah Fisher: kind of stuff and I

don't get involved in conversations.

652

: 00:37:33

For me, the word re respect means

to look again, re as in return.

653

: 00:37:42

and SPECT as in spectacle, spectator

654

: 00:37:47

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

655

: 00:37:48

Sarah Fisher: Look,

656

: 00:37:48

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

657

: 00:37:49

Sarah Fisher: looking, keep

looking, because there is

658

: 00:37:51

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

And keep looking.

659

: 00:37:53

Sarah Fisher: For behaviour, and

there is always a reason for movement.

660

: 00:37:57

And movement is the foundation

661

: 00:38:00

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

662

: 00:38:01

Sarah Fisher: Without movement, voluntary

and involuntary, life can't exist.

663

: 00:38:07

So we need to look at the

quality of that movement.

664

: 00:38:10

If your dogs always trotting, are they

really keen are they trying to offload

665

: 00:38:16

painful structures by moving quickly?

666

: 00:38:19

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

667

: 00:38:23

Sarah Fisher: things to

look at and to to discover.

668

: 00:38:26

we could want to know about Our companions

is right there in front of us, Nathan.

669

: 00:38:33

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, definitely.

670

: 00:38:35

Is there any examples that you could

share of any subtle signs that dogs

671

: 00:38:39

show us that are often missed by people

672

: 00:38:42

Sarah Fisher: Oh gosh.

673

: 00:38:43

Loads.

674

: 00:38:44

Absolutely loads.

675

: 00:38:46

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

like, yeah.

676

: 00:38:47

Sarah Fisher: yeah, I mean one of the

things that I noticed was when a dog

677

: 00:38:53

starts staring at a treat pouch or starts

counter surfing in the teaching rooms

678

: 00:38:59

where we have the kitchen area, it is

so easy to misinterpret that as the dog

679

: 00:39:06

looking to learn more, looking to work or

being greedy and looking for more food.

680

: 00:39:14

And it's not, it's a sign

that the dog needs a break.

681

: 00:39:19

So they are defaulting to well

practice behaviours or moving into

682

: 00:39:25

a, you know, familiar environment.

683

: 00:39:27

A kitchen.

684

: 00:39:28

It's not theirs, but it's a kitchen.

685

: 00:39:30

It's a clearly a kitchen,

and I think we misinterpret.

686

: 00:39:36

When a dog needs to process what we

are teaching them, we're not mindful

687

: 00:39:41

of this 17 minute time budget, and

the dog starts to kind of offer

688

: 00:39:46

lots of well practice behaviours or

default to breed specific behaviours

689

: 00:39:53

that require no thinking because

they're, you know, bred into the dog.

690

: 00:39:59

We see it as a request to do more with

us, or the dog defaulting and disengaging.

691

: 00:40:08

And it's not, it can be a

sign that the dog's utterly

692

: 00:40:11

overloaded and just needs a break.

693

: 00:40:15

So if I need a

694

: 00:40:17

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

695

: 00:40:17

Sarah Fisher: writing, I do something

that doesn't require much thinking.

696

: 00:40:21

I just walk out and I admire on our

farm, the donkeys and the horses

697

: 00:40:28

that I can kind of integrate what I'm

trying to think about and put on paper.

698

: 00:40:33

not me displacing.

699

: 00:40:35

It's me exploring and giving my

brain time to piece everything

700

: 00:40:40

together with a behaviour that

doesn't require me to think about it.

701

: 00:40:44

'cause walking.

702

: 00:40:46

We don't have to think about

walking unless we have a

703

: 00:40:48

physical challenge with walking.

704

: 00:40:50

don't need to think about being around

horses because they're so familiar to me.

705

: 00:40:55

Does that make sense?

706

: 00:40:56

So we've missed all these little

707

: 00:40:58

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

708

: 00:40:58

Sarah Fisher: signs and the, we need

to talk about comfort eating in dogs

709

: 00:41:03

because I see this, they start to

request this food when they don't

710

: 00:41:07

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

711

: 00:41:07

Sarah Fisher: else to do.

712

: 00:41:09

They also look for crunchy treats

to consolidate that learning.

713

: 00:41:15

And we also need to be

714

: 00:41:17

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

715

: 00:41:17

Sarah Fisher: the sensory side of

biting all the youngsters that I've been

716

: 00:41:23

privileged to learn from over the years,

like cookie dough and Henry and other

717

: 00:41:27

dogs too, they've all had to navigate

their world using their teeth with, you

718

: 00:41:33

know, significant intensity on humans.

719

: 00:41:38

But we know in children and adults

that are struggling with sensory

720

: 00:41:43

input, they too use their teeth

because using the teeth helps to

721

: 00:41:50

process that sensory experience.

722

: 00:41:53

And biting on something can also help

to maybe manage discomfort as well.

723

: 00:42:01

And physical and emotional

discomfort are intertwined.

724

: 00:42:05

And we, we have this weird thing

in the human world where we kind of

725

: 00:42:09

equate biting with either mouthing, we

recognize as a learning element to this,

726

: 00:42:16

but it's mouthing or it's aggression.

727

: 00:42:19

And even in the human world, if

we are overcome with emotion, just

728

: 00:42:26

deep love for a baby, an animal,

a partner, we might feel that

729

: 00:42:33

urge to sink our teeth into them.

730

: 00:42:36

And even that.

731

: 00:42:38

the word aggression in it.

732

: 00:42:39

'cause it's called cute aggression,

but it's not an intent to do harm.

733

: 00:42:43

It's a way of managing this overwhelming

sensation in the body created by love.

734

: 00:42:53

So there's just so much

we need to explore.

735

: 00:42:56

There's so much that we want to

compartmentalize and have quite a black

736

: 00:43:01

and white outlook on it, and dogs are

so much more beautifully nuanced than

737

: 00:43:06

we could ever hope to be as a two-legged

species who's woefully, you know, in

738

: 00:43:14

inadequate in terms of sensory processing.

739

: 00:43:18

That's how I feel.

740

: 00:43:19

We,

741

: 00:43:19

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

742

: 00:43:20

Sarah Fisher: we need to be

743

: 00:43:22

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

744

: 00:43:22

Sarah Fisher: student of the dog and

not fixate on being their teacher.

745

: 00:43:29

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Great, brilliant.

746

: 00:43:30

I love that.

747

: 00:43:31

Moving on to our next part, which is

all about connection over control.

748

: 00:43:35

I hate the word control.

749

: 00:43:36

So connection over control.

750

: 00:43:37

How can guardians begin to shift

their mindset from fixing an

751

: 00:43:43

inverted behaviours to understanding

an inverted behaviours instead?

752

: 00:43:49

Sarah Fisher: Join free work,

the help of some of our amazing

753

: 00:43:54

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

754

: 00:43:54

Sarah Fisher: or, you know,

or create free work for

755

: 00:43:56

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

756

: 00:43:57

Sarah Fisher: we give a

lot of information away.

757

: 00:43:59

Excuse me, it's too good not to share.

758

: 00:44:02

As I said at the beginning,

it belongs to the dogs.

759

: 00:44:05

It was created and developed by

dogs, for dogs and other animals.

760

: 00:44:10

just start to see your dog,

sorry, excuse me, with new eyes.

761

: 00:44:16

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No worries.

762

: 00:44:17

Sarah Fisher: and let them teach you.

763

: 00:44:20

And then we start to realize how our dogs

are able to build connection with themself

764

: 00:44:28

when we create free work for them.

765

: 00:44:31

Connection with us and

connection with other elements

766

: 00:44:35

of that external environment.

767

: 00:44:37

the more we focus on the dog's internal

environment, the less disruptive that

768

: 00:44:44

external environment will be, and we

start to kind of mirror each other.

769

: 00:44:51

We don't need to teach life skills in

the way that maybe is more traditional

770

: 00:44:58

in repetition and fun and everything.

771

: 00:45:02

If we teach these skills within the

framework of free work, the dog can opt

772

: 00:45:07

in and out of that engagement and we learn

more about their learning preferences.

773

: 00:45:14

We also in Ace, talk about, your

dog really distracted or has

774

: 00:45:20

the dog just disengaged from

what you're inviting them to do?

775

: 00:45:26

Dogs don't lose focus.

776

: 00:45:28

They shift focus.

777

: 00:45:31

And we always want to ask ourselves

778

: 00:45:33

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

779

: 00:45:34

Sarah Fisher: question?

780

: 00:45:35

Everything.

781

: 00:45:37

Everything you see,

782

: 00:45:38

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

783

: 00:45:39

Sarah Fisher: you hear in your wonderful

podcasts, including the one that they

784

: 00:45:44

might be listening today, question

everything, but never question the dog.

785

: 00:45:48

The dog is always right.

786

: 00:45:50

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

787

: 00:45:52

Yeah.

788

: 00:45:53

Love that.

789

: 00:45:54

Thank you, Sarah.

790

: 00:45:55

What role does environment and choice

play in canine wellbeing, please.

791

: 00:46:01

Sarah Fisher: To me, it's

fundamental to wellbeing.

792

: 00:46:04

If we don't have control over even

some aspects of our environment,

793

: 00:46:10

it can make us feel really unsafe.

794

: 00:46:13

So at Titty Farm, we make sure the dogs

know where the exit points are, even

795

: 00:46:20

if they've come in from one end, and

they might be connecting with their

796

: 00:46:24

caregiver and free work at the opposite

end, that we make sure that they know.

797

: 00:46:27

But they know that dogs are amazing.

798

: 00:46:30

make sure that the doors are

open, if the dogs are worried.

799

: 00:46:33

If the dog's really fearful, we drive.

800

: 00:46:36

Or we don't.

801

: 00:46:37

We get the caregiver to drive

their car into that free work space

802

: 00:46:41

so the dog can leave their car

when they're ready and return to

803

: 00:46:45

their car as soon as they're able.

804

: 00:46:48

And I call it a get out clause.

805

: 00:46:50

You know, everybody wants a get

out clause when signing a contract.

806

: 00:46:55

So for me, the more control a dog

has over their environment and their

807

: 00:47:00

interaction with us, the deeper the

trust, easier it is for the dog to say,

808

: 00:47:06

woo, I'm struggling with a really quiet

whisper instead of having to shout.

809

: 00:47:12

So to me, it's fundamental.

810

: 00:47:14

It's a really intrinsic need in us all.

811

: 00:47:17

all need agency.

812

: 00:47:19

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

813

: 00:47:20

Sarah Fisher: you can't have choice.

814

: 00:47:21

So it's not about saying to dogs.

815

: 00:47:24

You get to do what you want all the time.

816

: 00:47:26

'cause life isn't like that for any of us.

817

: 00:47:29

But when Henry

818

: 00:47:30

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

819

: 00:47:31

Sarah Fisher: joined me, he'd get really

frustrated really quickly if a door

820

: 00:47:35

wasn't open going into the free work area.

821

: 00:47:39

So I just started having all the doors

open so he could get there straight away.

822

: 00:47:44

But as he started to slow down, I could

keep the door, one of the doors shut, have

823

: 00:47:51

all of them open apart from maybe the last

door, and then I could have doors in the

824

: 00:47:57

building shut then I could leave them.

825

: 00:48:02

I could, you know, leave them

locked and unlock them with him

826

: 00:48:06

because he knew he was gonna be able

827

: 00:48:08

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

828

: 00:48:09

Sarah Fisher: access this

wonderful experience.

829

: 00:48:12

He started to self-regulate.

830

: 00:48:14

I didn't try and teach him, I just let

him find that rhythm for him himself.

831

: 00:48:19

more we meet a dog's

832

: 00:48:21

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

833

: 00:48:22

Sarah Fisher: The more peaceful

and contented they are in

834

: 00:48:25

all aspects of their life.

835

: 00:48:26

Nathan?

836

: 00:48:29

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, definitely.

837

: 00:48:31

I'm loving.

838

: 00:48:31

We're seeing these words, consent

agency and choice a lot more now, and

839

: 00:48:35

there's more of a shift to these, you

know, that way, and it's so important.

840

: 00:48:40

So ace in everyday life, how can free

work be integrated into daily routines?

841

: 00:48:47

Are there some simple ways we

can do it at home or on a walk?

842

: 00:48:51

Sarah Fisher: absolutely a great question.

843

: 00:48:54

yeah, making sure that

844

: 00:48:57

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

845

: 00:48:58

Sarah Fisher: have got access to

Forage sent spend quality time with

846

: 00:49:02

you when we're not engaged in at our

devices, doing work on our computer.

847

: 00:49:09

I started to just kind of hang out

with Henry for 10, 15 minutes a day

848

: 00:49:13

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Hang out with your dog.

849

: 00:49:15

Sarah Fisher: not listening to music,

850

: 00:49:17

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Love her.

851

: 00:49:18

Sarah Fisher: and it was amazing and.

852

: 00:49:21

If the dog's worried about going

into the outside world for a walk,

853

: 00:49:25

think about what does a walk mean.

854

: 00:49:27

So for me with Henry, it means quality

time together, moving over different

855

: 00:49:32

substrates, different terrain.

856

: 00:49:34

So he is moving his body in a different

way that walk, using his nose,

857

: 00:49:40

picking up data from the wildlife.

858

: 00:49:42

Other dogs maybe foraging for blackberries

'cause he loves blackberry season.

859

: 00:49:49

All of these things, yeah, are really

important to Henry and they're important

860

: 00:49:55

for me to enjoy that experience with him.

861

: 00:49:59

I don't want to walk along with, you

know, my nose buried in my phone.

862

: 00:50:05

So if a dog can't do that for whatever

reason, or the person can't, maybe

863

: 00:50:09

the person's got anxiety or mobility

issues, we can bring the outside

864

: 00:50:13

world in so we can create free

865

: 00:50:16

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

And yeah.

866

: 00:50:17

Sarah Fisher: elements.

867

: 00:50:19

We had somebody who was supporting

that were gonna end up going to a

868

: 00:50:23

beach, but they were really fearful.

869

: 00:50:25

They were through rescue.

870

: 00:50:27

So they started free work at

home with really simple stations.

871

: 00:50:30

Not overwhelming.

872

: 00:50:31

The dog started to add in more

snuffle mats and when the dogs were

873

: 00:50:36

really comfortable and content in

free work, they brought sand from

874

: 00:50:40

the beach in sea water, seaweed.

875

: 00:50:45

They started

876

: 00:50:45

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love.

877

: 00:50:46

Sarah Fisher: in some of the

878

: 00:50:47

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love it.

879

: 00:50:48

Sarah Fisher: and, you

know, visual information.

880

: 00:50:49

The dogs will meet and explore when they

first venture out onto that, that beach.

881

: 00:50:57

we can take as

882

: 00:50:58

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

883

: 00:50:59

Sarah Fisher: in free work and say,

I need to raise my dog's food bowl.

884

: 00:51:04

need to cover the slippery

floors in my home, because that's

885

: 00:51:09

influencing how my dog moves.

886

: 00:51:12

I need to

887

: 00:51:13

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

888

: 00:51:14

Sarah Fisher: my dog gets to

explore a new environment moving

889

: 00:51:18

to the left because that's what

I've seen them do in free work.

890

: 00:51:22

I am no longer gonna ask my dog to go

and sniff the back of a person's hand.

891

: 00:51:28

I'm going to let them day together.

892

: 00:51:31

gonna take crunchy treats out on a walk.

893

: 00:51:35

So when my dog to disengage and seem

distracted, gonna recognize I may

894

: 00:51:42

have walked for too long, worried and

they need to decompress with these

895

: 00:51:47

crunchy treats that they've shown

me they enjoy and need in free work.

896

: 00:51:53

We can take literally everything we

learn from our companions in free

897

: 00:51:57

work and bring it into every aspect

of our life, and people are using it,

898

: 00:52:04

Nathan, for supporting their dogs.

899

: 00:52:07

With all sorts of aspects of canine

welfare, education, and care.

900

: 00:52:12

It's, a game changer.

901

: 00:52:16

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

902

: 00:52:16

Sarah Fisher: simple.

903

: 00:52:17

It's really

904

: 00:52:18

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I,

905

: 00:52:18

Sarah Fisher: it's great fun.

906

: 00:52:19

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, it, yeah, it is.

907

: 00:52:22

And, and that leads us on to how

it can help, like nervous and

908

: 00:52:26

adolescents and rescue dogs, Sarah.

909

: 00:52:28

It can be really beneficial, can't it?

910

: 00:52:30

Sarah Fisher: Oh my goodness.

911

: 00:52:31

It saves lives.

912

: 00:52:32

Nathan Adolescent Dogs are my favorite age

913

: 00:52:35

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

914

: 00:52:35

Sarah Fisher: They are

the dogs that have been my

915

: 00:52:37

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

916

: 00:52:38

Sarah Fisher: tutors by far,

and they're the dogs as well.

917

: 00:52:41

That made me go,

918

: 00:52:42

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: wow.

919

: 00:52:42

Sarah Fisher: let's rethink this.

920

: 00:52:44

So Cookie was five months old when she

came to me, so starting adolescence.

921

: 00:52:50

And she was a dog.

922

: 00:52:50

As I said, that made me go, hang on.

923

: 00:52:53

isn't about teaching life skills.

924

: 00:52:55

That's beneficial, actually I need

to learn more from her and give

925

: 00:53:02

her more experiences that give her

control over those experiences.

926

: 00:53:07

So for adolescent dogs, have

an innate need to climb.

927

: 00:53:13

Puppies do.

928

: 00:53:13

So climbing on furniture, important

for adolescent dogs, but maybe not

929

: 00:53:19

so beneficial for every caregiver.

930

: 00:53:21

Maybe they don't want

their dogs on furniture.

931

: 00:53:25

Maybe some family members struggle

with dogs being on furniture, it's

932

: 00:53:30

not the dog trying to dominate.

933

: 00:53:33

It's meeting a really important need to

strengthen the function of the entire

934

: 00:53:39

nervous system, including the vestibular

system, which is linked to balance.

935

: 00:53:45

And if climbing wasn't such an

important part of development,

936

: 00:53:51

there wouldn't be any play parks for

children with climbing apparatus.

937

: 00:53:55

There wouldn't be.

938

: 00:53:55

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

939

: 00:53:56

Sarah Fisher: Young beings

need the opportunity to climb.

940

: 00:54:00

So in free work, we also create low, safe,

stable platforms for the dogs to climb

941

: 00:54:06

up and over, give them a new experience,

and support that amazing sensory system.

942

: 00:54:13

And for rescue dogs,

943

: 00:54:15

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

944

: 00:54:16

Sarah Fisher: we can stand back, give

them the chance to explore free from

945

: 00:54:21

people that may cause some concern.

946

: 00:54:25

We had a little rescue dog who she, she's

kind of the poster girl for anxious dog.

947

: 00:54:31

She had a terrible upbringing in a

puppy farm, used as a breeding bitch.

948

: 00:54:36

ended up being,

949

: 00:54:38

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

950

: 00:54:38

Sarah Fisher: In Bat Sea and

adopted by someone who's now

951

: 00:54:41

one of our ace advanced tutors.

952

: 00:54:44

And she was so fearful and her world had

been so small there was, you know, a lack

953

: 00:54:49

of important experiences during really

critical periods of development that she,

954

: 00:54:56

her, she, she just was really fearful and

couldn't eat in front of her caregiver.

955

: 00:55:02

she came down to Tilly farm just

started with her bed, a pickpocket

956

: 00:55:08

floor forger made by Cape Mallrat.

957

: 00:55:11

Not sure we can advertise,

but they're amazing.

958

: 00:55:15

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

You can advertise away, it's fine.

959

: 00:55:18

Sarah Fisher: floor forage is amazing

and free work and another texture.

960

: 00:55:22

And, you know, for the first time

started to leave her bed and eat, I

961

: 00:55:28

spent most of my life crying in, in joy

and relief of these amazing animals.

962

: 00:55:33

I had to

963

: 00:55:33

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That would be me.

964

: 00:55:35

Sarah Fisher: Yeah, right.

965

: 00:55:36

I gave her the pickpocket floor.

966

: 00:55:37

Forger changed her world.

967

: 00:55:40

Her caregiver just started to build

on the free work, adding more and

968

: 00:55:44

more novel things at a very slow pace.

969

: 00:55:47

Then we could engage with her

in free work, even though we

970

: 00:55:51

weren't that familiar to her.

971

: 00:55:53

Her life changed beyond belief,

thanks to her amazing caregiver dean.

972

: 00:56:00

So for that fearful dog who's terrified in

the corner, don't try and coax them out.

973

: 00:56:06

Just put food down and one tip might be

to put food down wearing a glove because

974

: 00:56:12

lots of fearful dogs can't take food.

975

: 00:56:15

That's got your scent on it because

your sense overwhelming for them.

976

: 00:56:20

Or enlist the help of a confident

dog that's already explored free work

977

: 00:56:25

that that fearful shelter dog can

observe and then maybe join provided.

978

: 00:56:31

Of course, their confident dog is

comfortable around other dogs and stuff,

979

: 00:56:35

not always easy in a shelter environment.

980

: 00:56:38

This work started thanks to shelter dogs.

981

: 00:56:43

It changes their lives.

982

: 00:56:44

It saves their lives.

983

: 00:56:46

Can it save every dog?

984

: 00:56:48

No.

985

: 00:56:48

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

986

: 00:56:49

Sarah Fisher: Should

we be saving every dog?

987

: 00:56:51

Unfortunately, no.

988

: 00:56:53

But it's wide, widely used at

Batter Sea and many other shelters,

989

: 00:56:59

and it enhances the life of the

dog while they're in the shelter.

990

: 00:57:03

It helps the behaviour

teams develop protocols.

991

: 00:57:10

On that foundation of what

might help the dog find a home,

992

: 00:57:13

but also stay in the home.

993

: 00:57:16

So some of the, and it, and also

the sta some of the station concepts

994

: 00:57:19

started in the shelter Sea, where we

were seeing dogs being hypervigilant,

995

: 00:57:25

coming out of kennels and scanning

the horizon and pulling on the lead.

996

: 00:57:29

And I said, let's give

them really easy targets.

997

: 00:57:32

And we put food bowls out in serpent

times the dogs could actually

998

: 00:57:37

start looking down, looking for

those easily identifiable objects.

999

: 00:57:44

a matter of, you know, half an hour

doing little breaks in between, they

: 1000

00:57:50,333 --> 00:57:52,163

were no longer scanning the horizon.

: 1001

00:57:52,163 --> 00:57:59,183

They were actually engaging the seeking

system and their whole world started to

: 1002

00:57:59,183 --> 00:58:01,643

open up as their confidence increased.

: 1003

00:58:02,033 --> 00:58:03,413

So, yeah, I mean, it's,

: 1004

00:58:04,241 --> 00:58:04,461

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

: 1005

00:58:05,363 --> 00:58:07,223

Sarah Fisher: it's for

every dog it really is.

: 1006

00:58:08,453 --> 00:58:09,713

And you know, every day

: 1007

00:58:10,561 --> 00:58:11,001

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I love that.

: 1008

00:58:11,423 --> 00:58:15,983

Sarah Fisher: and colleagues when we're

talking and connecting or emailing each

: 1009

00:58:15,983 --> 00:58:23,573

other, including people at Batey we

all say, did we do before free work?

: 1010

00:58:24,383 --> 00:58:24,893

did we do?

: 1011

00:58:25,733 --> 00:58:30,863

Because it's such a great way to build

a relationship, build confidence,

: 1012

00:58:30,863 --> 00:58:33,928

build trust, and deepen connections.

: 1013

00:58:34,461 --> 00:58:34,971

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1014

00:58:36,771 --> 00:58:37,461

I love that.

: 1015

00:58:37,551 --> 00:58:38,661

Thank you so much.

: 1016

00:58:38,661 --> 00:58:39,171

Sarah.

: 1017

00:58:39,681 --> 00:58:42,711

How is Ace being used beyond Pet Guardian?

: 1018

00:58:42,771 --> 00:58:45,331

Oh, we've actually touched on

shouters and things like it's

: 1019

00:58:45,331 --> 00:58:47,191

being used in vet clinics, is it?

: 1020

00:58:47,191 --> 00:58:47,401

And

: 1021

00:58:47,883 --> 00:58:48,303

Sarah Fisher: Well,

: 1022

00:58:48,331 --> 00:58:49,531

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, it's being used in

: 1023

00:58:49,531 --> 00:58:51,241

vets as well, and groomers.

: 1024

00:58:51,663 --> 00:58:56,553

Sarah Fisher: And vets sometimes ask

for their caregiver, the caregiver to

: 1025

00:58:56,553 --> 00:59:02,163

film a free work session because they

can see more gait changes when the

: 1026

00:59:02,281 --> 00:59:03,031

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

: 1027

00:59:03,183 --> 00:59:03,273

Sarah Fisher: in

: 1028

00:59:03,331 --> 00:59:05,311

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

that's a good, good idea.

: 1029

00:59:05,388 --> 00:59:07,338

Sarah Fisher: We have some

vets going through the courses

: 1030

00:59:07,411 --> 00:59:07,471

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1031

00:59:07,548 --> 00:59:09,768

Sarah Fisher: have some vets

teaching on the courses.

: 1032

00:59:10,158 --> 00:59:13,488

And we've just had, in our module

three, we asked people to put this

: 1033

00:59:13,488 --> 00:59:17,208

little recipe for success together

using all the ACE ingredients they've

: 1034

00:59:17,208 --> 00:59:18,498

learned through their modules.

: 1035

00:59:18,498 --> 00:59:19,488

One, two, and three.

: 1036

00:59:20,508 --> 00:59:27,588

one of the group on the last module three

put together ACE Elements, a Cookbook for

: 1037

00:59:27,588 --> 00:59:29,538

Supporting Animals with Veterinary Care.

: 1038

00:59:29,958 --> 00:59:33,798

And one of the group members who

put that recipe together is a vet

: 1039

00:59:33,798 --> 00:59:39,378

and it, I was reading it again

this morning, sobbing, Nathan, the

: 1040

00:59:39,378 --> 00:59:45,018

thinking, the care, the compassion,

how they're building confidence.

: 1041

00:59:46,308 --> 00:59:53,208

Just so beautifully constructed, so rich

all the elements that they've included.

: 1042

00:59:53,598 --> 00:59:56,838

Because confidence in a

veterinary setting doesn't start

: 1043

00:59:56,838 --> 00:59:59,388

at the vets, it starts at home.

: 1044

01:00:00,096 --> 01:00:00,316

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

: 1045

01:00:00,603 --> 01:00:01,413

Sarah Fisher: knowing they've

: 1046

01:00:01,786 --> 01:00:02,006

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

: 1047

01:00:02,103 --> 01:00:05,733

Sarah Fisher: ability to say,

wait, I'm struggling, or No,

: 1048

01:00:06,001 --> 01:00:06,421

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1049

01:00:07,111 --> 01:00:07,501

Yeah,

: 1050

01:00:07,683 --> 01:00:09,213

Sarah Fisher: it's

applicable to everything.

: 1051

01:00:09,393 --> 01:00:12,303

So groomers use it to build relationships.

: 1052

01:00:13,473 --> 01:00:13,743

Sue

: 1053

01:00:14,041 --> 01:00:15,331

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, yeah.

: 1054

01:00:15,751 --> 01:00:16,201

We've had,

: 1055

01:00:16,318 --> 01:00:16,668

Sarah Fisher: groom.

: 1056

01:00:17,161 --> 01:00:18,511

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you

literally just took the words out.

: 1057

01:00:18,691 --> 01:00:20,461

You took the words out my mouth.

: 1058

01:00:20,461 --> 01:00:23,191

We've had Sue on, and she said

how she uses it, and she's

: 1059

01:00:23,191 --> 01:00:24,181

one of the ladies that said.

: 1060

01:00:24,556 --> 01:00:26,056

To ask, get, get you on.

: 1061

01:00:27,038 --> 01:00:27,618

Sarah Fisher: Oh, amazing.

: 1062

01:00:27,766 --> 01:00:29,176

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yet she's using it for grieving

: 1063

01:00:29,176 --> 01:00:31,216

all the nervous, nervous dogs and

: 1064

01:00:31,298 --> 01:00:33,813

Sarah Fisher: I, I dunno, a

situation where it wouldn't be

: 1065

01:00:33,813 --> 01:00:36,873

beneficial, but, but of course I

: 1066

01:00:37,036 --> 01:00:37,576

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

: 1067

01:00:38,086 --> 01:00:42,256

Sarah Fisher: Police dogs, dogs

doing free work before and after

: 1068

01:00:42,256 --> 01:00:45,436

Bite work, sent detection dogs.

: 1069

01:00:46,786 --> 01:00:48,706

I mean, it's, it's mind blowing.

: 1070

01:00:48,706 --> 01:00:54,736

It just helps the dogs reset, rebalance,

and sort of reconnect, mind blowing.

: 1071

01:00:57,060 --> 01:00:57,600

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

: 1072

01:00:57,600 --> 01:00:59,850

Is it helping any other animals?

: 1073

01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,095

Not just dogs benefiting from this method?

: 1074

01:01:03,441 --> 01:01:04,041

Sarah Fisher: That's

: 1075

01:01:04,535 --> 01:01:06,095

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Can imagine horses and cats

: 1076

01:01:06,116 --> 01:01:07,216

Sarah Fisher: Horses is amazing.

: 1077

01:01:08,361 --> 01:01:08,991

And another

: 1078

01:01:09,125 --> 01:01:09,635

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

obviously.

: 1079

01:01:09,681 --> 01:01:10,341

Sarah Fisher: for success.

: 1080

01:01:10,341 --> 01:01:10,731

Yeah.

: 1081

01:01:11,101 --> 01:01:11,341

Sorry.

: 1082

01:01:11,401 --> 01:01:16,321

Another person who did the recipe for

success for, for veterinary care lovely

: 1083

01:01:16,321 --> 01:01:19,621

videos up of their horse doing free work.

: 1084

01:01:19,861 --> 01:01:21,961

It's amazing for all animals.

: 1085

01:01:22,201 --> 01:01:24,541

We've had people doing it with rats.

: 1086

01:01:24,691 --> 01:01:26,371

We've had people, you know,

: 1087

01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:27,000

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

: 1088

01:01:27,691 --> 01:01:29,851

Sarah Fisher: of Exactly.

: 1089

01:01:30,061 --> 01:01:32,851

Doing it with all range

of animals in their care.

: 1090

01:01:34,126 --> 01:01:35,401

Sters, I mean, just

: 1091

01:01:35,790 --> 01:01:36,210

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

: 1092

01:01:37,261 --> 01:01:38,911

Sarah Fisher: It's really fun.

: 1093

01:01:39,420 --> 01:01:42,030

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's, it's, yeah.

: 1094

01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:45,240

And it just helps cement that

relationship and build that bond.

: 1095

01:01:45,601 --> 01:01:45,781

Sarah Fisher: Yeah.

: 1096

01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:47,070

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh my God.

: 1097

01:01:47,070 --> 01:01:49,770

We've literally soured

through this episode.

: 1098

01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,560

It has been jam packed.

: 1099

01:01:53,310 --> 01:01:54,420

It's gone really quick.

: 1100

01:01:54,420 --> 01:01:56,400

I could, I could speak to you all day.

: 1101

01:01:56,510 --> 01:02:00,130

And I've listened to you on a

couple of Andrew's webinars before.

: 1102

01:02:01,420 --> 01:02:03,190

We will be hanging out next week.

: 1103

01:02:03,220 --> 01:02:06,910

I'm gonna be, no, I'm gonna be

meeting up with Andrew and, and

: 1104

01:02:06,910 --> 01:02:10,225

stuff on, you know, on the Friday

and I'll be there all weekends.

: 1105

01:02:10,225 --> 01:02:11,590

So we will be hanging out.

: 1106

01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,330

I'm a hugger so I dunno if you are.

: 1107

01:02:15,530 --> 01:02:15,700

But.

: 1108

01:02:16,645 --> 01:02:20,665

Yeah, so for our listeners, I mean,

it is, it is beginning of July

: 1109

01:02:20,665 --> 01:02:23,335

at the moment, but this episode

will go out in a couple of months.

: 1110

01:02:23,335 --> 01:02:26,725

But we are gonna be at the A

BK conference next weekend.

: 1111

01:02:26,725 --> 01:02:30,665

And Ashford Kent, Daniel Shaw

who's been on the yappy hour as

: 1112

01:02:30,665 --> 01:02:34,115

well, so that's why we're talking

about meeting up next weekend.

: 1113

01:02:34,115 --> 01:02:35,435

So it's gonna be lovely.

: 1114

01:02:35,765 --> 01:02:39,415

So Sarah, like I said, I've listened

to you before on some Andrew's webinars

: 1115

01:02:39,415 --> 01:02:40,885

and I get to meet you next week.

: 1116

01:02:40,885 --> 01:02:45,595

I cannot wait, but a quick fire round

as we bring this episode to a close.

: 1117

01:02:45,595 --> 01:02:50,665

So what's one free work item

you cannot live without?

: 1118

01:02:50,665 --> 01:02:51,295

Sarah.

: 1119

01:02:52,036 --> 01:02:56,296

Sarah Fisher: I think mini snuffle

mats because we can put them in piles

: 1120

01:02:56,296 --> 01:03:01,276

for dogs to forage through like leaves

and we can create kind of pyramids so

: 1121

01:03:01,276 --> 01:03:05,596

that dogs have got the station height

that's most accessible for them.

: 1122

01:03:05,746 --> 01:03:10,006

So I think when we can use them as sensory

trays, we can use 'em in so many ways.

: 1123

01:03:10,066 --> 01:03:11,026

That's my go-to.

: 1124

01:03:11,266 --> 01:03:13,186

If I could only have one

item, it would be that

: 1125

01:03:16,395 --> 01:03:16,715

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

: 1126

01:03:17,335 --> 01:03:17,995

What's the

: 1127

01:03:22,156 --> 01:03:25,006

Sarah Fisher: the observer book

of dogs that I had as a child,

: 1128

01:03:25,456 --> 01:03:27,436

it was a little red covered book.

: 1129

01:03:27,736 --> 01:03:32,056

I had one on horses and one on dogs,

and I used to read both of those,

: 1130

01:03:32,296 --> 01:03:38,726

learning about the different breeds and

yeah, my, it was my constant companion.

: 1131

01:03:38,726 --> 01:03:42,416

So I think I have to go right back to

my childhood and say that, and also the

: 1132

01:03:42,416 --> 01:03:44,486

incredible journey, another huge childhood

: 1133

01:03:44,650 --> 01:03:45,040

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that,

: 1134

01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:48,670

no, I love that.

: 1135

01:03:49,030 --> 01:03:52,105

What's one thing you wish

every dog Guardian knew?

: 1136

01:03:52,105 --> 01:03:52,425

Sarah?

: 1137

01:03:54,266 --> 01:03:59,786

Sarah Fisher: How to really start

considering what a painful landscape

: 1138

01:03:59,786 --> 01:04:01,976

looks like for their animal companion.

: 1139

01:04:02,366 --> 01:04:07,256

Because chronic pain is so difficult

to identify in a veterinary

: 1140

01:04:07,256 --> 01:04:08,996

setting, the space is too small.

: 1141

01:04:08,996 --> 01:04:10,256

There's not enough time.

: 1142

01:04:11,006 --> 01:04:13,796

animal's not relaxed, the

caregiver's not relaxed.

: 1143

01:04:13,976 --> 01:04:15,416

It's really difficult for the vet.

: 1144

01:04:15,836 --> 01:04:22,826

So I would love more people to fall

in love with learning ace observations

: 1145

01:04:22,826 --> 01:04:28,106

because with good observations,

we can ensure our companions are

: 1146

01:04:28,106 --> 01:04:29,936

living the best life possible.

: 1147

01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:33,200

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

: 1148

01:04:33,820 --> 01:04:34,110

Okay.

: 1149

01:04:34,495 --> 01:04:40,675

What's one gentle shift you'd encourage

every dog guardian to make today, Sarah?

: 1150

01:04:43,466 --> 01:04:51,776

Sarah Fisher: I think to really stand

back, watch more, and do less, and really

: 1151

01:04:51,776 --> 01:04:58,676

think about providing income for the

dog and not focusing on outcome, move

: 1152

01:04:58,676 --> 01:05:04,166

away from that sort of goal-oriented

way of thinking and enjoy being in

: 1153

01:05:04,166 --> 01:05:06,866

the moment with these amazing animals.

: 1154

01:05:07,256 --> 01:05:11,606

And if we are gonna be a teacher,

what we need to make sure is we

: 1155

01:05:11,606 --> 01:05:17,186

are a really good student, so

be a great student of your dog.

: 1156

01:05:20,165 --> 01:05:20,654

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Love that.

: 1157

01:05:21,105 --> 01:05:24,095

Sarah, how can people

learn more about you?

: 1158

01:05:24,675 --> 01:05:26,415

Ace free work if they

want to get in touch.

: 1159

01:05:28,211 --> 01:05:32,441

Sarah Fisher: We have two

websites, tilly farm.org.uk.

: 1160

01:05:32,441 --> 01:05:39,161

A little bit of information quite

an old website, also we have

: 1161

01:05:39,161 --> 01:05:41,291

animal centered education.com,

: 1162

01:05:41,291 --> 01:05:44,111

which is our teaching

platform that we use.

: 1163

01:05:44,321 --> 01:05:46,181

So there's a little

bit more information on

: 1164

01:05:46,275 --> 01:05:46,565

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

: 1165

01:05:46,991 --> 01:05:49,571

Sarah Fisher: and you can see a

list of the courses that we run.

: 1166

01:05:49,961 --> 01:05:51,671

So we do online courses.

: 1167

01:05:52,001 --> 01:05:55,721

We do online and in-person

courses combined.

: 1168

01:05:56,171 --> 01:06:01,481

Or you can attend an in-person workshop

at Tilly Farm as a standalone event.

: 1169

01:06:02,351 --> 01:06:04,181

And we also on Tilly Farm website

: 1170

01:06:04,185 --> 01:06:04,404

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,

: 1171

01:06:04,901 --> 01:06:09,611

Sarah Fisher: of our amazing

practitioners, trainers, associate

: 1172

01:06:09,611 --> 01:06:14,621

tutors, advanced tutors, and

associate instructors and instructors.

: 1173

01:06:14,621 --> 01:06:19,571

So also connect with someone

either in your area who or who

: 1174

01:06:19,571 --> 01:06:21,431

also offers courses online.

: 1175

01:06:22,331 --> 01:06:23,471

team are amazing.

: 1176

01:06:23,950 --> 01:06:24,610

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes.

: 1177

01:06:24,641 --> 01:06:25,331

Sarah Fisher: amazing.

: 1178

01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,050

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, I definitely need to get down

: 1179

01:06:29,050 --> 01:06:30,790

to Tilly farm sometime as well.

: 1180

01:06:30,790 --> 01:06:31,930

It's on my list to do.

: 1181

01:06:32,051 --> 01:06:32,916

Sarah Fisher: Oh, please do.

: 1182

01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:37,270

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Sarah

Fisher, thank you so much for joining

: 1183

01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:41,350

me on the Yappy Hour, powered by today.

: 1184

01:06:41,950 --> 01:06:44,350

I've absolutely loved speaking to you.

: 1185

01:06:44,410 --> 01:06:45,910

Thank you so much for joining us.

: 1186

01:06:47,306 --> 01:06:50,576

Sarah Fisher: Thank you so much and I

can't wait to give you a hug in person.

: 1187

01:06:53,410 --> 01:06:54,940

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I'm really looking forward to it,

: 1188

01:06:54,940 --> 01:06:56,465

and I'll, I'll see you very soon.

: 1189

01:06:57,476 --> 01:06:57,986

Sarah Fisher: Thank you.

: 1190

01:07:05,482 --> 01:07:08,542

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Wow, what an incredible conversation.

: 1191

01:07:08,602 --> 01:07:10,357

Oh, I can't go over it.

: 1192

01:07:10,362 --> 01:07:11,842

It was absolutely amazing.

: 1193

01:07:11,842 --> 01:07:14,212

I could have listened

to Sarah all day long.

: 1194

01:07:14,782 --> 01:07:17,692

Um, if there's one thing I hate you

take from this episode, it's that

: 1195

01:07:17,692 --> 01:07:20,212

our dogs aren't projects to fix.

: 1196

01:07:20,512 --> 01:07:23,992

They're individuals with

stories, feelings, and needs.

: 1197

01:07:24,382 --> 01:07:29,122

Sarah reminded us of the

power of observation to pause.

: 1198

01:07:29,517 --> 01:07:35,187

To notice the small shifts in movement

or behaviour that tell a much deeper

: 1199

01:07:35,187 --> 01:07:40,797

story, whether you live with a bouncy

puppy, a nervous rescue, or a senior

: 1200

01:07:40,797 --> 01:07:47,757

soul ace free work gives you the tools to

meet your dog where they are and maybe.

: 1201

01:07:48,012 --> 01:07:52,992

Just maybe it gives us space

to grow alongside them too.

: 1202

01:07:53,802 --> 01:08:02,292

You can learn more about Sarah's

incredible work@www.tillyfarm.org.uk,

: 1203

01:08:02,832 --> 01:08:06,792

and we will put all of the

links in the show notes and if

: 1204

01:08:06,792 --> 01:08:11,087

today's episode resonated with

you, please consider sharing it.

: 1205

01:08:11,487 --> 01:08:17,487

Leaving us a review and help us spread the

message that there's more to, more than

: 1206

01:08:17,487 --> 01:08:20,997

one way to walk beside, beside our dogs.

: 1207

01:08:21,657 --> 01:08:26,577

Until next time, take care

and keep those towels wagon.

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