In this episode of The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, your host, Nathan Dunleavy, sits down with internationally respected behaviourist and educator Sarah Fisher. Sarah is the founder of ACE (Animal Centred Education) and the creator of ACE Free Work, a structured yet gentle approach that helps dogs thrive through observation, trust, and choice.
🐾 Whether you live with a nervous rescue, a high-energy adolescent, or a senior dog, this episode will change how you see your dog.
🎧 What you'll learn:
🌐 Learn more about Sarah and ACE Free Work:
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by
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:Yappily, where dog guardians meet real
talk expert advice and Waggy tails.
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:I'm your host Nathan Dunleavy, and
today I'm gen, generally thrilled
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:and so excited to be joined by
someone whose name has come up in
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:so many of our previous episodes.
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:Sarah Fisher is here.
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:Sarah is a behaviour counselor
educator and the founder of Ace.
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:Animal centered education and her
free work method has inspired dog
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:professionals and pet guardians worldwide.
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:It's all about understanding the dog
in front of you, not just managing
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:behaviour, but seeing beneath it.
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:Today we're talking about observation,
gentle guidance, trust building, and
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:what it really means to walk beside
your dog rather than control them.
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:If you've ever felt like there's
something more, your dog's trying
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:to tell you, this one's for you.
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:So grab a cup of tea, settle
in, and let's get started.
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:welcome back to The Yappy
Hour, powered by Yappily.
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:I'm your host, Nathan D.
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:Levy, and I'm so excited to bring you
another episode of The Yappy Hour Today.
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:Even more exciting that we have the
amazing Sarah Fisher joining us today.
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:Hi Sarah.
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:Welcome to the Yappy Hour.
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:How are you?
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:Sarah Fisher: Hi Nathan.
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:Thank you for inviting me.
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:I'm great.
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:Thank you.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
You are most welcome.
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:You are very busy lady, and I appreciate
you taking the time to well spend
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:your, we're recording on Friday
evening in, in, in June, well, July.
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:No, it's early July.
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:July now.
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:And I appreciate you taking the time
'cause you are very busy lady and I'm
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:just been so looking forward to this chat.
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:So, Sarah ace free work, we're gonna
be chatting all about ACE free work.
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:So for our listeners and viewers, ACE
stands for Animal Centered Education.
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:Sarah, for those dog guardians
who have never heard of free
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:work, how oh, actually I'm asking
the, the wrong question to start.
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:That's because I've got so
excited that I've chatted to you.
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:I've literally gone in
like on the wrong question.
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:Right.
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:Wee ride.
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:Brilliant.
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:Right.
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:Anyway, how did your passion for
animal behaviour and welfare begin?
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:Please, Sarah.
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:Sarah Fisher: Oh, great question.
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:Right back in childhood,
both of my parents, both pate
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:grandparents had animals.
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:Dogs were a huge part of our lives for
generations, and my father in particular
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:would always remind me that the animals
that were part of our family were
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:there because we'd invited them in.
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:They hadn't chosen to be with
us, and as a result, we had to
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:always put their needs first.
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:He was also obsessive, but really,
really, you know, instilled in me that
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:need for animals to have access to
fresh water at all times, to have their
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:needs met, took care of our own needs.
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:And so that whole connection with
animals and choice and being sentient
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:beings and being a, you know, a very
much valued part of our family was
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:instilled in me in a, in a very early age.
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:And my Aunt Labrador
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Love that.
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:Sarah Fisher: in the left hip.
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:And as a child I was told
we could, you know, pet him.
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:If he enjoyed that, we
could engage with him.
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:But we were not to touch him on the
left hip because it was uncomfortable.
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:And if he growled, we would be
the ones that got into trouble.
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:So, you know, just so much knowledge
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: from a really
early age that I think drives
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
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:Yeah, I absolutely love that.
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:Love that so much.
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:I'm a, I'm a bit of a late bloomer.
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:I didn't get my first dog
tour about 10 years ago.
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:And now I'm obsessed
because I've got seven dogs.
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:So, like the crazy dog man.
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:Sarah Fisher: That to me, my
parents wouldn't lemme have
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Yeah, it is.
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:Sarah Fisher: Yeah.
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:Sorry.
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:My parents wouldn't let me have a
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.
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:Sarah Fisher: when I was young,
so they didn't want me to, you
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:know, grow out of the pony and
then we'd have to rehome the pony.
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:That would be too awful.
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:And we couldn't have afforded two
ponies, so I wasn't allowed one.
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:So as soon as I was able to
start collecting horses, I did.
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:And at one point, I think we had 15.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
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:Brilliant horse collection.
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:Well, I, yeah, I waited until I met my
husband and we've got a house together.
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:'cause I'd lived in a flat and I
was like, right, we've got a house.
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:We're settling down, getting a dog.
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:Sarah Fisher: Good.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
then seven dogs later here we are.
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:Sarah Fisher: Life's
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:I love it.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
brilliant.
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:It is complete.
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:Yeah.
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:We wouldn't have it any other way.
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:So Sarah, thank you so much.
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:What led you to the development
of ACE Free work please?
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:Sarah Fisher: Nathan, that's
an hour long answer in itself.
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:I, I have been known to speak for
45 minutes without drawing breath,
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:answering one question as people that
have heard me speak before can confirm.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
You said that offline.
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:Sarah Fisher: Yeah, so a lot.
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:I think big part of free work
is influenced by my childhood.
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:Again, when I was on holiday in Portugal
with my family, long before Portugal
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:became a tourist destination and hotspot,
we would rent a villa in this tiny town
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:that's now, I'm sure, hugely popular.
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:And my sister and parents would
be sunbathing on the beach.
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:And I'd be off exploring the rock
pools in the company of some of the
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:street dogs, and they were free roaming
dogs that belong to the community.
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:And I would kind of be adopted by
a dog, or maybe I adopted a dog I'd
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:have a companion every day for the
fortnight that we would be there.
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:And it, it just.
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:Was just the richest part of,
excuse me, I've got hiccups that
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:hit holiday experience for me.
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:Didn't have any toys,
didn't have any food.
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:It was just the joy of exploring.
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:the same at home.
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:I was lucky enough to buy my
own dog when I was 11 with money
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:that I'd been gifted in a will.
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:I also had sort of collected a number
of dogs from our local neighborhood
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:who I would take up onto Eps and Downs
where I grew up and enjoy their company.
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:Just exploring and roaming, you know,
thank you to all the adults that did
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:give me the, you know, they're, they're
companions to go off and spend many
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:happy hours exploring the downs with.
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:I think that kind of freedom, that
connection, that exploring, that joy
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:of just being in the company of dogs.
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:And I've been, I've been
obsessed with animals since I.
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:As far as I can remember,
so that exploration element,
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:100% influences free work.
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:Then my original background human
massage, anatomy and physiology and
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:supporting people who, who are, you
know, faced with losing their children.
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:It was due to a friend of mine
whose child was dying from a brain
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:tumor and spent a lot of time at
Great or Ormond Street Hospital.
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:of sent me on that path of looking
at human health and wellbeing
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:and how if you can't influence
an outcome, what can you do?
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:We get a bit fixated on outcomes
as a culture, but particularly
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:in the animal education world.
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:And of course in that environment
you can't change the outcome, but
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:you can support and hold and connect
in a nonverbal way with people that
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:are facing the most horrendous.
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:Element of, you know, being,
being a parent, you don't
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:expect to outlive your child.
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:So within that, there was a lot
of learning about the connection
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:between emotions and physicality.
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:friend would walk into me and in the horse
world that would be classed as dominance,
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:the animal not respecting your space.
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:And I just remember that she was so
physically out of balance because
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:of the emotional toll she was under.
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:She had no concept of awareness of
how she was navigating the corridors
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:of Great Ormond Street Hospital.
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:And from that human learning took me
off down other paths that were really
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:relevant to how we connect with animals.
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:also spent time doing learning, doing and
teaching tea touch so that also part of my
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,
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:Sarah Fisher: background
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: lovely.
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:Sarah Fisher: looking at how we
could help dogs settle in the space
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:that we'd created at Tilly Farm when
they were new in that environment.
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:So for my one-to-ones, I would have kind
of enrichment engagements ready, but
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:this was before the snuffle mat existed.
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:you even imagine life
before snuffle nights?
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:And people would say, oh,
my dog's not interested.
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:dog's not interested in things like this.
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:We've tried for, you know, foraging
and the nose and everything, and
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:I, I would raise the stuff off the
ground so it wasn't at floor height.
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:And suddenly these dogs were
really interested not to the
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:amazement of their caregiver.
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:Because if a dog's physically and or
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: and the two often go
together uncomfortable, they don't
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:feel safe putting their nose to
the ground changing the way they
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:were able to engage with those
items, not only help the dog relax.
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:helped the caregiver relax.
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:learning easier for both
the caregiver and the dog.
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:also what was really noticeable was the
caregiver would share more of their story
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:and their struggle with their companion.
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:And the companion struggle with me earlier
on in the session opposed to as many
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:people will know, of skirting around the
major that is causing such disruption in
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:their life and only mentioning that at
the end or towards the end of the session.
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:And it's a really common thing
that we have to build up trust.
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:The person might only share more
significant when they know they've
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:got what I call the get out clause.
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:It's time to leave, and we
were having amazing outcomes.
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:'cause the dogs were so
relaxed when we moved
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
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:Sarah Fisher: areas of the
farm, the relaxed lead walking
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:was like almost instant.
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:They were less hypervigilant
looking for wildlife.
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:They were able just to stand
and process the sight of my
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:or the wildlife on the farm.
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:they were kind of sowing the seeds
for what we'd now call free work.
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:And now it's this amazing
integrated method by cookie Dough
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:Dynamo who joined me in 2008,
and Henry who joined me in:
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:17 and cookie dough found
the world overstimulating.
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:And she totally changed the direction
that I was moving in when it
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:came to canine education because
people were saying, train more.
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:Train more.
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:would navigate the world with her teeth,
and she's only little All terrier.
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:She's an amazing dog,
super fast processor.
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:And I did fall into that trap.
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:But then I realized really quickly
in teaching her lots of skills.
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:A, she was brighter than me.
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:B, she was always gonna be faster
at learning than I could ever be.
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:And CI actually wasn't
helping her find contentment,
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:connection, peace, tranquility.
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:All I was doing was redirecting the
way she interacted with her world.
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:Into different scenarios,
onto different objects.
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:So teaching her to engage
with toys saved my skin.
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:I was black and blue, saved
my trouser legs, saved
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
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:Sarah Fisher: you know, my shirt collar.
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:But it didn't help her calmer
and safer in sensory world.
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:I was integrating my human knowledge with
that and knowing the benefits of sensory.
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:Input for people that had some form of
cognitive dysfunction or disconnection
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:to, you know, some areas of their
body due to injury or disease states.
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:I then looked more into that and came
across the work of Gene Ays, who was
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:an American psychologist who developed
sensory integration theory, a way of
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:supporting children and people with
learning struggles, including with
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:sensory overload and sensory overload.
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:And that was the real start of free
work, bringing everything in together.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
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:Sarah Fisher: added even more
structure to that in:
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:So it's become structured method
of supporting dogs and enhancing
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:education in its own right.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.
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:Wow.
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:Fascinating.
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:Wow, you answered that one a
lot quicker than 45 minutes.
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:Sarah Fisher: I am trying,
Nathan, I'm trying.
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:I've
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
doing well.
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:Sarah Fisher: Yeah.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
No, please.
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:Sarah Fisher: Be
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
No, don't you worry.
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:No, don't you worry.
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:I absolutely love it.
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:I've got a cookie, not a cookie
day, but we have a cookie, so
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:I'm glad you've got a cookie day.
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:Sarah Fisher: I like that.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Brilliant.
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:Sarah, do you know what Ace and
Ace Free work, and you have been
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:mentioned in so many past episodes
of the Yappy Hour, everyone says
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:ACE Free Work and Sarah Fisher.
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:What does it mean to you seeing
the reach and impact that it's.
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:Sarah Fisher: It, it really, it
really moves me and it really
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:humbles me because I spend.
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:of my life in a glorious ace bubble,
connecting with people that are
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:looking for this, learning, this way
of supporting, this way, of improving
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:observations and enhancing the lives
of their animals, and obviously
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:enhancing that relationship and,
and their life with their animal.
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:So I, I, I am blessed with an amazing ace
community of incredible teachers, people
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:that have been there from the beginning,
my amazing ace instructor, colleague
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:Sarah with, who's been there for 17,
18 years, since we started to explore
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
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:Sarah Fisher: of these concepts with the
dogs of Baty, where I first met Sarah.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: I see that reach, I see the
feedback, I see the joy of new students
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:seeing their dogs through new eyes.
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:But I have no concept other than
that of how far this spreads.
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:And when somebody said to me
recently, you have, you have no idea
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:how many people talk about this.
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:It, it kind.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yep.
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:Sarah Fisher: it, I'm not often lost
for words, Nathan, but it really
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Oh, bless.
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:Sarah Fisher: quite extraordinary
and really moving because I don't
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:think I have developed free work.
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:I don't believe I own free work.
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:the dogs that have been a part of my
life and the horses too have shown
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:me power of standing back watching.
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:More and doing less particularly
Cookie Dough and Henry
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,
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:Sarah Fisher: a dog at
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,
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:Sarah Fisher: showed me the value
of having different textures
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:on defer that saved his life.
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:And these amazing animals are
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,
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:Sarah Fisher: honored and they're
changing lives, and they're saving
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:lives through all they shared with me.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: to me is a
very humbling experience.
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:And yeah, I, I can't believe how far
it's and how many lives it touches and
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It.
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:Sarah Fisher: I.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
It really has.
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:So literally every episode you
get mentioned and so does Ace.
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:So I was desperate to get you on and
I know, you know you've been so busy
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:and like, and I'm just so honored
that you took the time to meet with
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:me today because like I say, everyone
said, oh, you have to get Sarah on.
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:And everyone was talking
about Sarah and Ace.
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:And obviously I know about you through
Andrew and some other colleagues and,
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:and I was just desperate to speak to
you 'cause I've got like, I, I follow
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:you as well and I've got one of your
books and yeah, it's just, I'm just
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:really honored that you've come on.
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:So I feel a bit starstruck myself,
but it, no, it's been lovely that
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:it gets mentioned on most episodes.
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:Sarah Fisher: You are, you're so lovely.
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:I'm so, I, I just get to meet
incredible people like you and
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:wherever we are on that learning
journey, no one has more knowledge.
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:We've just got different knowledge and
different experience, and obviously
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:really close friends like Andy Hale,
you know, to be able to share the same
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:space with people like Andy's and some
of my amazing ACE colleagues as well.
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:People like Sarah Heath, amazing
veterinary behaviourists,
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:who I've known for 30 years.
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:Just feel
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
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:Sarah Fisher: I have been given such
a great gift through connecting with
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:these amazing, forgiving and giving
animals and more and more voices
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:that are sharing the same message.
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:Just empower other
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.
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:Sarah Fisher: to really reconsider
how they connect with animals and
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:live alongside animals and really
help them reframe their thinking and
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:question some existing beliefs that
we've kind of all gone along with and
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:repeated without necessarily stepping
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: and saying, on a minute,
is this a human led experience?
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:Or is dog actually trying to share
different with us or would find it easier
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:if we took time to stand back and learn
from them instead of rushing in with
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:our tips and ideas for problem solving?
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:And that was something
Cookie Dough taught,
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: me.
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:Instead of me thinking, oh, oh, I
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh
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:Sarah Fisher: can teach you
this and I can give you this
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:experience and that will help you.
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:It was like, stop.
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:Just stop.
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:does cookie
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: to navigate her world?
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:Where are the gaps in her learning
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: How can I extend her
sensory reference library, giving
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:her complete control of that learning
experience that the world is not quite
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:as overwhelming and as overstimulating
as it is for this 20 week old.
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:Puppy who's come through Batey
to me as her fifth foster home.
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:And I just
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
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:Sarah Fisher: I just
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Bless.
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:Sarah Fisher: people like you, Nathan,
who are part of that sharing of
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:these incredible adventures that we
can have together and exciting new
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:discoveries and really supporting
people saying, you're not alone.
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:If you are seeing what we are seeing
and if what we are saying is really
356
:resonating with you, but you haven't
maybe had the courage to stand up and
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:say, I've learned, what I am being taught
been a great experience, but it's not
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:right for me and my animal companion.
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.
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:Yeah.
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:They're our greatest
teachers, aren't they?
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:And I just love when you say, you know,
we just need, we just need to slow down.
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:Less is more.
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:Observe and listen,
that's all we need to do.
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:Sarah Fisher: One thing I'm
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Oh, brilliant.
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:Right.
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:We're gonna move.
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:Sarah Fisher: sorry.
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:One thing, I'm sure I've,
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Oh, go on.
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:Please do.
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:Sarah Fisher: yeah.
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:One thing, for example, in free work,
basically free work, think some enrichment
375
:engagements alongside education with
exploration with the dog being the
376
:pilot of their home learning experience.
377
:And our role air traffic controller
to guide them back to a safer
378
:flight path if necessary, or maybe
be their co-pilot from time to
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I love.
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:Sarah Fisher: And we call what we would
create as a snuffling opportunity or
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:as a licking opportunity, a station.
382
:So we might have a base and then a topper.
383
:That could be a range of snuffle
mats, different silicon mats.
384
:So we kind of create all these
different layouts and then.
385
:We can modify that rule of,
you know, not rule of thumb.
386
:Little, little tip.
387
:Generally you don't want
the station higher than the
388
:top of the dog's front leg.
389
:So it's not about the dog
stretching and it's not about the
390
:dog necessarily having to bend and
pick everything up off the floor.
391
:We do put treats on the floor so
the dog doesn't have to approach
392
:something that may be visually very
different, anything that might be a
393
:novel texture before they're ready.
394
:And then we just kind of hang back
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
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:Sarah Fisher: the dog's happy
to explore on their own.
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:But one, and we see these
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:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
399
:Sarah Fisher: patterns that we just have
never observed in any other context, but
400
:the dogs have been doing them in other
contexts, but we just haven't really
401
:been aware it's not been on our radar.
402
:And the main thing, one of the
main things how people choose to
403
:greet people and pick up that data.
404
:And I 100% will have.
405
:Talked about or shared maybe taught, oh
yeah, put your hand down, let the dog
406
:come and sniff the back of your hand.
407
:when we actually watch dogs in
free work, guess what, Nathan?
408
:They don't do that.
409
:What they do is they
explore their environment.
410
:The anxious dogs more likely to
explore in an anti-clockwise direction.
411
:Not all, but a strong.
412
:Number, you know, high proportion
of anxious dogs navigate the space
413
:in anti-clockwise So A, how does
that fit with what we might do when
414
:we're out and the dog's on a leash?
415
:Because traditionally we handle our
dogs on our left, so we are more
416
:likely to turn a dog to the right
interrupt their needs to explore
417
:moving in an anti-clockwise direction.
418
:Some dogs need to stick to the
boundary, the wall, first of all.
419
:So how can we replicate that?
420
:We need to avoid taking those dogs
across open park land, keep to a
421
:hedge, you know, see what the dog
needs when they're in a new space.
422
:And once they then start to explore
free work, what they do is they just
423
:casually glance towards maybe two
or three people, or maybe only one.
424
:Never the whole group back and
forage in one of our very creative
425
:stations, and we named them after
the dogs that inspired them.
426
:Then they lift their head up
and air sense towards, go back
427
:to foraging and exploring.
428
:Then they start this casual walk
by just one or two people, even if
429
:there's five or 10 people in the room.
430
:Then they go back to exploration, and
then when they're ready, they come and
431
:start sensing if they're emotionally
and physically comfortable enough
432
:to do it, the shoe and lower leg.
433
:Then they might walk by another person.
434
:Then they return maybe in a
second session, maybe in the first
435
:session and sent from the hip up.
436
:Picking up more data from the trunk
of the person before they orientate
437
:themselves in a way that they can
air accent the person's breath.
438
:Hardly any dog, unless there's
been a really strong reinforcement
439
:history, approaches the people first.
440
:They all explore first.
441
:Hardly any dog comes and
actually sniffs the hand.
442
:And the only time they may sniff the
hand is maybe that person has already
443
:engaged with their dog and has been
laying food out in their free work.
444
:And then when you see
this, you can't unsee it.
445
:So we see it in the shelter, we see it
with puppies, we see it with dogs outside.
446
:When unfamiliar people are maybe
in that space, some dogs will
447
:wait till the person's left to
then scent where that person was
448
:standing, and it's mind blowing.
449
:So where did we get concept that
dogs want to come and scent our hand?
450
:not criticizing that.
451
:I'm not saying it might not be a
useful skill to teach some dogs, but we
452
:have missed so many amazing patterns.
453
:So many beautiful, nuanced.
454
:Engagement.
455
:So many subtle conversations free work
literally puts a spotlight on everything.
456
:What dogs
457
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
458
:Sarah Fisher: to do when they're starting
a session, many times they might repeat
459
:an engagement if we invite them to
engage with us so we can add some life
460
:skills into that foundation of free work.
461
:What does a dog do
462
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
463
:Sarah Fisher: when they need to stop?
464
:Take a rest.
465
:go out to the bathroom, may
maybe have a break completely.
466
:They finish finished.
467
:Clues are also clear, but they're so
easy to overlook and muddle up with a
468
:dog wanting to learn more or do more.
469
:And the other amazing thing that's
come out of free work is the majority
470
:of dogs will engage in explore
free work for about 17 minutes.
471
:And then they need to stop and process.
472
:And this is well documented in humans.
473
:TED Talks are only 18 minutes long.
474
:So how can we then break down the learning
experience for puppies, adolescent
475
:dogs, dogs and shelters that may never
have learned any life skill at all?
476
:In one-to-ones, we obviously
can't say, Hey, come and
477
:join a 17 minute puppy class.
478
:one's gonna do it.
479
:But we can break that learning
experience down into 12 to 15, 17 minute
480
:little time budgets, and then follow
that through with access to a chew.
481
:when dogs are processing in free
work, what they tend to pick up
482
:are the bigger crunchier treats.
483
:It's a part of a sensory experience,
and we need to think of food.
484
:Way beyond being a treat or re reward.
485
:It's a sensory experience.
486
:a way of really supporting that dog
accelerating, enhancing, learning.
487
:But the dog will choose what they find
rewarding, not what we think might be a
488
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
489
:Sarah Fisher: for them.
490
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
491
:Love that.
492
:It's all about the dog cheese in.
493
:Sarah Fisher: Yep.
494
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Brilliant.
495
:If a guardian's never heard of free
work, how would you describe it?
496
:In simple terms?
497
:Sarah Fisher: I would think about
it being of enriching engagement.
498
:So we're gonna create
499
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
500
:Sarah Fisher: for the dogs to forage
and chew and lick and explore.
501
:Scent, don't have to use food.
502
:We can create really exciting, novel,
free work setups with household items.
503
:You know, my dogs always used to enjoy.
504
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
505
:Sarah Fisher: Laundry day or when I would
come home with bags or shopping, or if
506
:I'd been in the company of other dogs
and giving them the time to really pick
507
:up that scent data is really important.
508
:So we can create amazing
509
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
510
:Sarah Fisher: setups from household
items that are obviously safe and stable.
511
:So we would put out three
512
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
513
:Sarah Fisher: different types of
stations to begin with and just let
514
:the dog explore and think enrichment.
515
:really consider is it a really enriching
engagement on a physical level and
516
:a cognitive and emotional level.
517
:Because sometimes with videos that I see
online, and this isn't a criticism, I
518
:applaud anyone that's to trying to add
value to their dog's life and meet their
519
:intrinsic needs, but sometimes those
520
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
521
:Sarah Fisher: offerings.
522
:physically because the dog's painful
or they're creating frustration.
523
:So if I see teeth marks on anything
including like a silicon mat for, for
524
:licking, or I see the dog biting at that,
525
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm
526
:Sarah Fisher: may not be leaving
teeth marks, what I see is body
527
:tension, frustration, not a
rewarding experience at all.
528
:So free work brings
529
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm
530
:Sarah Fisher: elements that the
dogs enjoy, but with it added of
531
:observations so we can ensure it's a
532
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
533
:Sarah Fisher: rewarding
engagement on every single level.
534
:And I think it meets dogs' needs
and it also engages every part
535
:of them, including, you know,
their amazing sensory systems.
536
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
537
:Brilliant.
538
:I love that you've touched on observation
because that's, oh, I don't mind at all.
539
:I love it.
540
:Observation, the power of
observations, our next section.
541
:So why is observation such a
key part to the ACE approach?
542
:Sarah Fisher: we've just started
teaching module one, so that's
543
:our, part of our animal centered
education training program.
544
:And we finished a module
three the week before.
545
:Module one is just about
the intro of observations.
546
:Looking at your dog's ear position,
looking at how they organize their
547
:limbs at the stations in free work.
548
:How do they navigate that space?
549
:Do they need to explore
in an anti-clockwise way?
550
:How can we take that learning
into all areas of a dog's life?
551
:happening with their coat?
552
:Because it was a dog in the
:
553
:of the R-S-P-C-A showed me how.
554
:coat is influenced by what's going on
in the structures beneath the coat.
555
:So I, I used to do a whole
presentation on what lies beneath,
556
:sort of talking about the story
and linking it in with, you know,
557
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
558
:Sarah Fisher: films like Jaws and,
you know, sort of making anatomical
559
:references and, and the whole
concept was what lies beneath?
560
:Really helping guardians
561
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
562
:Sarah Fisher: to say, hang on a
minute, my dog is pulling when on
563
:the lead, not because of a lack
of learning, because they're front
564
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm
565
:Sarah Fisher: because they've
got mobility in the hind limbs.
566
:So they've shunted their weight
567
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.
568
:Sarah Fisher: and they're pulling
themselves along from the four quarters
569
:and the hair over the shoulders
and the neck is really exaggerated.
570
:And I just thought that was part
of their natural coat pattern.
571
:at the spread of the toes,
how the tail is being carried.
572
:How do they carry their tongue?
573
:the tongue and the tail are connected
through the fascia, they're also
574
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
575
:Sarah Fisher: part of
the dog's balance system.
576
:So it tells me when I meet a dog
whose history I might not know,
577
:maybe when I used to do court
assessments, they've been seized.
578
:I dunno anything about them.
579
:They're, they're held in secure kennels.
580
:Maybe they're in a shelter having
been picked up as a stray with no
581
:history at all, it tells me a lot
more about where this dog is at
582
:their mobility in there learning
experience, how they're responding to.
583
:Some of the stuff we'll have out in free
work gives us so many more clues about all
584
:these little threads that weave together
to create the more obvious picture coat
585
:patterns are now widely recognized.
586
:And it's thanks to a dog called Sandy
in the:
587
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
588
:Sarah Fisher: to, yeah, this incredible
story that is told just through the
589
:dog's coat, nevermind everything else.
590
:So we want to establish the
591
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
592
:Sarah Fisher: We want to
establish a baseline for a dog.
593
:And our module one students are saying,
oh my goodness, my dog crabs to the right.
594
:Oh my goodness, I never noticed the
dog's ears were unlevel the ears
595
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
596
:Sarah Fisher: neck.
597
:The neck linked to balance, obviously,
and the dog will overuse that four
598
:part of their body if they've got hip
issues, knee issues, lumbar spine issues.
599
:So lots of dogs with unlevel ears.
600
:Often have undiagnosed chronic pain in
the hind limb, and when we can help them
601
:gather data for the vet, we can then have
obviously pain addressed, bring in other
602
:people, veterinary physiotherapists,
and support all that through free work.
603
:We have amazing outcomes where the le
ears become more level, the tail is
604
:central instead of always hanging to
the left or the right, the tongue has
605
:got more freedom of movement instead
of maybe always hanging to one side
606
:because of a curve in the body where
the dog was trying to offload painful
607
:structures, but it was so subtle, the
caregiver wa wasn't aware of it at all.
608
:So observations are the starting
point, and they're an ongoing element
609
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
610
:Sarah Fisher: And I really
encourage people to look
611
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
612
:Sarah Fisher: photographs, look at still
photographs of your dog as a puppy.
613
:Look at how they sit, how do they
organize their body when they need to
614
:defecate, do they have to Do they have to,
615
:you know, do sort of circular
movements or move forward?
616
:Are they unable to maintain
that squat position?
617
:That's all indicative of potential
chronic pain or poor balance.
618
:And obviously the two are connected.
619
:if they scratch the ground
after or defecating, they lift
620
:one leg higher than the other?
621
:Do they only scratch with one
limb they scratch their neck
622
:response to wearing equipment or.
623
:You know, if they've got some level of
discomfort or emotional concerns, do
624
:they only scratch one side of their neck?
625
:Is it because they can't
scratch with the other?
626
:We, we start piecing all these
amazing clues together and people
627
:in the first, you know, experiences
of ACE and free work have been able
628
:to get the diagnosis of luxating
patella, hip dysplasia, lumbosacral
629
:disease, even in young dogs that
630
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
631
:Sarah Fisher: that you wouldn't
think would be suffering
632
:from such chronic conditions.
633
:And most of those dogs were
sensitive to unfamiliar people.
634
:Some of them had a bite history.
635
:And we share that emotional
journey in our zooms, in our
636
:practical workshops at the farm.
637
:You know, we, we literally weep
with relief for this dog and
638
:this caregiver and this beautiful
639
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
640
:Sarah Fisher: that's now able to
blossom because the animals pain free.
641
:And then we have amazing people.
642
:We have a veterinary
643
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
644
:Sarah Fisher: teaches on one of the
modules, and Sarah Heath teaches as well.
645
:So, know, it's all adding layers
to say, watching, keep watching.
646
:And you know what, me
647
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
648
:Sarah Fisher: people use the word,
oh, your dog doesn't respect you.
649
:And they know, I don't,
I don't really listen
650
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.
651
:Sarah Fisher: kind of stuff and I
don't get involved in conversations.
652
:For me, the word re respect means
to look again, re as in return.
653
:and SPECT as in spectacle, spectator
654
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
655
:Sarah Fisher: Look,
656
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
657
:Sarah Fisher: looking, keep
looking, because there is
658
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
And keep looking.
659
:Sarah Fisher: For behaviour, and
there is always a reason for movement.
660
:And movement is the foundation
661
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
662
:Sarah Fisher: Without movement, voluntary
and involuntary, life can't exist.
663
:So we need to look at the
quality of that movement.
664
:If your dogs always trotting, are they
really keen are they trying to offload
665
:painful structures by moving quickly?
666
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.
667
:Sarah Fisher: things to
look at and to to discover.
668
:we could want to know about Our companions
is right there in front of us, Nathan.
669
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Yeah, definitely.
670
:Is there any examples that you could
share of any subtle signs that dogs
671
:show us that are often missed by people
672
:Sarah Fisher: Oh gosh.
673
:Loads.
674
:Absolutely loads.
675
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
like, yeah.
676
:Sarah Fisher: yeah, I mean one of the
things that I noticed was when a dog
677
:starts staring at a treat pouch or starts
counter surfing in the teaching rooms
678
:where we have the kitchen area, it is
so easy to misinterpret that as the dog
679
:looking to learn more, looking to work or
being greedy and looking for more food.
680
:And it's not, it's a sign
that the dog needs a break.
681
:So they are defaulting to well
practice behaviours or moving into
682
:a, you know, familiar environment.
683
:A kitchen.
684
:It's not theirs, but it's a kitchen.
685
:It's a clearly a kitchen,
and I think we misinterpret.
686
:When a dog needs to process what we
are teaching them, we're not mindful
687
:of this 17 minute time budget, and
the dog starts to kind of offer
688
:lots of well practice behaviours or
default to breed specific behaviours
689
:that require no thinking because
they're, you know, bred into the dog.
690
:We see it as a request to do more with
us, or the dog defaulting and disengaging.
691
:And it's not, it can be a
sign that the dog's utterly
692
:overloaded and just needs a break.
693
:So if I need a
694
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
695
:Sarah Fisher: writing, I do something
that doesn't require much thinking.
696
:I just walk out and I admire on our
farm, the donkeys and the horses
697
:that I can kind of integrate what I'm
trying to think about and put on paper.
698
:not me displacing.
699
:It's me exploring and giving my
brain time to piece everything
700
:together with a behaviour that
doesn't require me to think about it.
701
:'cause walking.
702
:We don't have to think about
walking unless we have a
703
:physical challenge with walking.
704
:don't need to think about being around
horses because they're so familiar to me.
705
:Does that make sense?
706
:So we've missed all these little
707
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
708
:Sarah Fisher: signs and the, we need
to talk about comfort eating in dogs
709
:because I see this, they start to
request this food when they don't
710
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
711
:Sarah Fisher: else to do.
712
:They also look for crunchy treats
to consolidate that learning.
713
:And we also need to be
714
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.
715
:Sarah Fisher: the sensory side of
biting all the youngsters that I've been
716
:privileged to learn from over the years,
like cookie dough and Henry and other
717
:dogs too, they've all had to navigate
their world using their teeth with, you
718
:know, significant intensity on humans.
719
:But we know in children and adults
that are struggling with sensory
720
:input, they too use their teeth
because using the teeth helps to
721
:process that sensory experience.
722
:And biting on something can also help
to maybe manage discomfort as well.
723
:And physical and emotional
discomfort are intertwined.
724
:And we, we have this weird thing
in the human world where we kind of
725
:equate biting with either mouthing, we
recognize as a learning element to this,
726
:but it's mouthing or it's aggression.
727
:And even in the human world, if
we are overcome with emotion, just
728
:deep love for a baby, an animal,
a partner, we might feel that
729
:urge to sink our teeth into them.
730
:And even that.
731
:the word aggression in it.
732
:'cause it's called cute aggression,
but it's not an intent to do harm.
733
:It's a way of managing this overwhelming
sensation in the body created by love.
734
:So there's just so much
we need to explore.
735
:There's so much that we want to
compartmentalize and have quite a black
736
:and white outlook on it, and dogs are
so much more beautifully nuanced than
737
:we could ever hope to be as a two-legged
species who's woefully, you know, in
738
:inadequate in terms of sensory processing.
739
:That's how I feel.
740
:We,
741
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
742
:Sarah Fisher: we need to be
743
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Brilliant.
744
:Sarah Fisher: student of the dog and
not fixate on being their teacher.
745
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Great, brilliant.
746
:I love that.
747
:Moving on to our next part, which is
all about connection over control.
748
:I hate the word control.
749
:So connection over control.
750
:How can guardians begin to shift
their mindset from fixing an
751
:inverted behaviours to understanding
an inverted behaviours instead?
752
:Sarah Fisher: Join free work,
the help of some of our amazing
753
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
754
:Sarah Fisher: or, you know,
or create free work for
755
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
756
:Sarah Fisher: we give a
lot of information away.
757
:Excuse me, it's too good not to share.
758
:As I said at the beginning,
it belongs to the dogs.
759
:It was created and developed by
dogs, for dogs and other animals.
760
:just start to see your dog,
sorry, excuse me, with new eyes.
761
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
No worries.
762
:Sarah Fisher: and let them teach you.
763
:And then we start to realize how our dogs
are able to build connection with themself
764
:when we create free work for them.
765
:Connection with us and
connection with other elements
766
:of that external environment.
767
:the more we focus on the dog's internal
environment, the less disruptive that
768
:external environment will be, and we
start to kind of mirror each other.
769
:We don't need to teach life skills in
the way that maybe is more traditional
770
:in repetition and fun and everything.
771
:If we teach these skills within the
framework of free work, the dog can opt
772
:in and out of that engagement and we learn
more about their learning preferences.
773
:We also in Ace, talk about, your
dog really distracted or has
774
:the dog just disengaged from
what you're inviting them to do?
775
:Dogs don't lose focus.
776
:They shift focus.
777
:And we always want to ask ourselves
778
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
779
:Sarah Fisher: question?
780
:Everything.
781
:Everything you see,
782
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
783
:Sarah Fisher: you hear in your wonderful
podcasts, including the one that they
784
:might be listening today, question
everything, but never question the dog.
785
:The dog is always right.
786
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.
787
:Yeah.
788
:Love that.
789
:Thank you, Sarah.
790
:What role does environment and choice
play in canine wellbeing, please.
791
:Sarah Fisher: To me, it's
fundamental to wellbeing.
792
:If we don't have control over even
some aspects of our environment,
793
:it can make us feel really unsafe.
794
:So at Titty Farm, we make sure the dogs
know where the exit points are, even
795
:if they've come in from one end, and
they might be connecting with their
796
:caregiver and free work at the opposite
end, that we make sure that they know.
797
:But they know that dogs are amazing.
798
:make sure that the doors are
open, if the dogs are worried.
799
:If the dog's really fearful, we drive.
800
:Or we don't.
801
:We get the caregiver to drive
their car into that free work space
802
:so the dog can leave their car
when they're ready and return to
803
:their car as soon as they're able.
804
:And I call it a get out clause.
805
:You know, everybody wants a get
out clause when signing a contract.
806
:So for me, the more control a dog
has over their environment and their
807
:interaction with us, the deeper the
trust, easier it is for the dog to say,
808
:woo, I'm struggling with a really quiet
whisper instead of having to shout.
809
:So to me, it's fundamental.
810
:It's a really intrinsic need in us all.
811
:all need agency.
812
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
813
:Sarah Fisher: you can't have choice.
814
:So it's not about saying to dogs.
815
:You get to do what you want all the time.
816
:'cause life isn't like that for any of us.
817
:But when Henry
818
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.
819
:Sarah Fisher: joined me, he'd get really
frustrated really quickly if a door
820
:wasn't open going into the free work area.
821
:So I just started having all the doors
open so he could get there straight away.
822
:But as he started to slow down, I could
keep the door, one of the doors shut, have
823
:all of them open apart from maybe the last
door, and then I could have doors in the
824
:building shut then I could leave them.
825
:I could, you know, leave them
locked and unlock them with him
826
:because he knew he was gonna be able
827
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
828
:Sarah Fisher: access this
wonderful experience.
829
:He started to self-regulate.
830
:I didn't try and teach him, I just let
him find that rhythm for him himself.
831
:more we meet a dog's
832
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.
833
:Sarah Fisher: The more peaceful
and contented they are in
834
:all aspects of their life.
835
:Nathan?
836
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Yeah, definitely.
837
:I'm loving.
838
:We're seeing these words, consent
agency and choice a lot more now, and
839
:there's more of a shift to these, you
know, that way, and it's so important.
840
:So ace in everyday life, how can free
work be integrated into daily routines?
841
:Are there some simple ways we
can do it at home or on a walk?
842
:Sarah Fisher: absolutely a great question.
843
:yeah, making sure that
844
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
845
:Sarah Fisher: have got access to
Forage sent spend quality time with
846
:you when we're not engaged in at our
devices, doing work on our computer.
847
:I started to just kind of hang out
with Henry for 10, 15 minutes a day
848
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Hang out with your dog.
849
:Sarah Fisher: not listening to music,
850
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Love her.
851
:Sarah Fisher: and it was amazing and.
852
:If the dog's worried about going
into the outside world for a walk,
853
:think about what does a walk mean.
854
:So for me with Henry, it means quality
time together, moving over different
855
:substrates, different terrain.
856
:So he is moving his body in a different
way that walk, using his nose,
857
:picking up data from the wildlife.
858
:Other dogs maybe foraging for blackberries
'cause he loves blackberry season.
859
:All of these things, yeah, are really
important to Henry and they're important
860
:for me to enjoy that experience with him.
861
:I don't want to walk along with, you
know, my nose buried in my phone.
862
:So if a dog can't do that for whatever
reason, or the person can't, maybe
863
:the person's got anxiety or mobility
issues, we can bring the outside
864
:world in so we can create free
865
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
And yeah.
866
:Sarah Fisher: elements.
867
:We had somebody who was supporting
that were gonna end up going to a
868
:beach, but they were really fearful.
869
:They were through rescue.
870
:So they started free work at
home with really simple stations.
871
:Not overwhelming.
872
:The dog started to add in more
snuffle mats and when the dogs were
873
:really comfortable and content in
free work, they brought sand from
874
:the beach in sea water, seaweed.
875
:They started
876
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love.
877
:Sarah Fisher: in some of the
878
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love it.
879
:Sarah Fisher: and, you
know, visual information.
880
:The dogs will meet and explore when they
first venture out onto that, that beach.
881
:we can take as
882
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
883
:Sarah Fisher: in free work and say,
I need to raise my dog's food bowl.
884
:need to cover the slippery
floors in my home, because that's
885
:influencing how my dog moves.
886
:I need to
887
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
888
:Sarah Fisher: my dog gets to
explore a new environment moving
889
:to the left because that's what
I've seen them do in free work.
890
:I am no longer gonna ask my dog to go
and sniff the back of a person's hand.
891
:I'm going to let them day together.
892
:gonna take crunchy treats out on a walk.
893
:So when my dog to disengage and seem
distracted, gonna recognize I may
894
:have walked for too long, worried and
they need to decompress with these
895
:crunchy treats that they've shown
me they enjoy and need in free work.
896
:We can take literally everything we
learn from our companions in free
897
:work and bring it into every aspect
of our life, and people are using it,
898
:Nathan, for supporting their dogs.
899
:With all sorts of aspects of canine
welfare, education, and care.
900
:It's, a game changer.
901
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,
902
:Sarah Fisher: simple.
903
:It's really
904
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I,
905
:Sarah Fisher: it's great fun.
906
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
yeah, it, yeah, it is.
907
:And, and that leads us on to how
it can help, like nervous and
908
:adolescents and rescue dogs, Sarah.
909
:It can be really beneficial, can't it?
910
:Sarah Fisher: Oh my goodness.
911
:It saves lives.
912
:Nathan Adolescent Dogs are my favorite age
913
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
914
:Sarah Fisher: They are
the dogs that have been my
915
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh
916
:Sarah Fisher: tutors by far,
and they're the dogs as well.
917
:That made me go,
918
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: wow.
919
:Sarah Fisher: let's rethink this.
920
:So Cookie was five months old when she
came to me, so starting adolescence.
921
:And she was a dog.
922
:As I said, that made me go, hang on.
923
:isn't about teaching life skills.
924
:That's beneficial, actually I need
to learn more from her and give
925
:her more experiences that give her
control over those experiences.
926
:So for adolescent dogs, have
an innate need to climb.
927
:Puppies do.
928
:So climbing on furniture, important
for adolescent dogs, but maybe not
929
:so beneficial for every caregiver.
930
:Maybe they don't want
their dogs on furniture.
931
:Maybe some family members struggle
with dogs being on furniture, it's
932
:not the dog trying to dominate.
933
:It's meeting a really important need to
strengthen the function of the entire
934
:nervous system, including the vestibular
system, which is linked to balance.
935
:And if climbing wasn't such an
important part of development,
936
:there wouldn't be any play parks for
children with climbing apparatus.
937
:There wouldn't be.
938
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.
939
:Sarah Fisher: Young beings
need the opportunity to climb.
940
:So in free work, we also create low, safe,
stable platforms for the dogs to climb
941
:up and over, give them a new experience,
and support that amazing sensory system.
942
:And for rescue dogs,
943
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
944
:Sarah Fisher: we can stand back, give
them the chance to explore free from
945
:people that may cause some concern.
946
:We had a little rescue dog who she, she's
kind of the poster girl for anxious dog.
947
:She had a terrible upbringing in a
puppy farm, used as a breeding bitch.
948
:ended up being,
949
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh
950
:Sarah Fisher: In Bat Sea and
adopted by someone who's now
951
:one of our ace advanced tutors.
952
:And she was so fearful and her world had
been so small there was, you know, a lack
953
:of important experiences during really
critical periods of development that she,
954
:her, she, she just was really fearful and
couldn't eat in front of her caregiver.
955
:she came down to Tilly farm just
started with her bed, a pickpocket
956
:floor forger made by Cape Mallrat.
957
:Not sure we can advertise,
but they're amazing.
958
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
You can advertise away, it's fine.
959
:Sarah Fisher: floor forage is amazing
and free work and another texture.
960
:And, you know, for the first time
started to leave her bed and eat, I
961
:spent most of my life crying in, in joy
and relief of these amazing animals.
962
:I had to
963
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
That would be me.
964
:Sarah Fisher: Yeah, right.
965
:I gave her the pickpocket floor.
966
:Forger changed her world.
967
:Her caregiver just started to build
on the free work, adding more and
968
:more novel things at a very slow pace.
969
:Then we could engage with her
in free work, even though we
970
:weren't that familiar to her.
971
:Her life changed beyond belief,
thanks to her amazing caregiver dean.
972
:So for that fearful dog who's terrified in
the corner, don't try and coax them out.
973
:Just put food down and one tip might be
to put food down wearing a glove because
974
:lots of fearful dogs can't take food.
975
:That's got your scent on it because
your sense overwhelming for them.
976
:Or enlist the help of a confident
dog that's already explored free work
977
:that that fearful shelter dog can
observe and then maybe join provided.
978
:Of course, their confident dog is
comfortable around other dogs and stuff,
979
:not always easy in a shelter environment.
980
:This work started thanks to shelter dogs.
981
:It changes their lives.
982
:It saves their lives.
983
:Can it save every dog?
984
:No.
985
:Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
986
:Sarah Fisher: Should
we be saving every dog?
987
:Unfortunately, no.
988
:But it's wide, widely used at
Batter Sea and many other shelters,
989
:and it enhances the life of the
dog while they're in the shelter.
990
:It helps the behaviour
teams develop protocols.
991
:On that foundation of what
might help the dog find a home,
992
:but also stay in the home.
993
:So some of the, and it, and also
the sta some of the station concepts
994
:started in the shelter Sea, where we
were seeing dogs being hypervigilant,
995
:coming out of kennels and scanning
the horizon and pulling on the lead.
996
:And I said, let's give
them really easy targets.
997
:And we put food bowls out in serpent
times the dogs could actually
998
:start looking down, looking for
those easily identifiable objects.
999
:a matter of, you know, half an hour
doing little breaks in between, they
:
00:57:50,333 --> 00:57:52,163
were no longer scanning the horizon.
:
00:57:52,163 --> 00:57:59,183
They were actually engaging the seeking
system and their whole world started to
:
00:57:59,183 --> 00:58:01,643
open up as their confidence increased.
:
00:58:02,033 --> 00:58:03,413
So, yeah, I mean, it's,
:
00:58:04,241 --> 00:58:04,461
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
:
00:58:05,363 --> 00:58:07,223
Sarah Fisher: it's for
every dog it really is.
:
00:58:08,453 --> 00:58:09,713
And you know, every day
:
00:58:10,561 --> 00:58:11,001
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
I love that.
:
00:58:11,423 --> 00:58:15,983
Sarah Fisher: and colleagues when we're
talking and connecting or emailing each
:
00:58:15,983 --> 00:58:23,573
other, including people at Batey we
all say, did we do before free work?
:
00:58:24,383 --> 00:58:24,893
did we do?
:
00:58:25,733 --> 00:58:30,863
Because it's such a great way to build
a relationship, build confidence,
:
00:58:30,863 --> 00:58:33,928
build trust, and deepen connections.
:
00:58:34,461 --> 00:58:34,971
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
:
00:58:36,771 --> 00:58:37,461
I love that.
:
00:58:37,551 --> 00:58:38,661
Thank you so much.
:
00:58:38,661 --> 00:58:39,171
Sarah.
:
00:58:39,681 --> 00:58:42,711
How is Ace being used beyond Pet Guardian?
:
00:58:42,771 --> 00:58:45,331
Oh, we've actually touched on
shouters and things like it's
:
00:58:45,331 --> 00:58:47,191
being used in vet clinics, is it?
:
00:58:47,191 --> 00:58:47,401
And
:
00:58:47,883 --> 00:58:48,303
Sarah Fisher: Well,
:
00:58:48,331 --> 00:58:49,531
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
yeah, it's being used in
:
00:58:49,531 --> 00:58:51,241
vets as well, and groomers.
:
00:58:51,663 --> 00:58:56,553
Sarah Fisher: And vets sometimes ask
for their caregiver, the caregiver to
:
00:58:56,553 --> 00:59:02,163
film a free work session because they
can see more gait changes when the
:
00:59:02,281 --> 00:59:03,031
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,
:
00:59:03,183 --> 00:59:03,273
Sarah Fisher: in
:
00:59:03,331 --> 00:59:05,311
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
that's a good, good idea.
:
00:59:05,388 --> 00:59:07,338
Sarah Fisher: We have some
vets going through the courses
:
00:59:07,411 --> 00:59:07,471
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
:
00:59:07,548 --> 00:59:09,768
Sarah Fisher: have some vets
teaching on the courses.
:
00:59:10,158 --> 00:59:13,488
And we've just had, in our module
three, we asked people to put this
:
00:59:13,488 --> 00:59:17,208
little recipe for success together
using all the ACE ingredients they've
:
00:59:17,208 --> 00:59:18,498
learned through their modules.
:
00:59:18,498 --> 00:59:19,488
One, two, and three.
:
00:59:20,508 --> 00:59:27,588
one of the group on the last module three
put together ACE Elements, a Cookbook for
:
00:59:27,588 --> 00:59:29,538
Supporting Animals with Veterinary Care.
:
00:59:29,958 --> 00:59:33,798
And one of the group members who
put that recipe together is a vet
:
00:59:33,798 --> 00:59:39,378
and it, I was reading it again
this morning, sobbing, Nathan, the
:
00:59:39,378 --> 00:59:45,018
thinking, the care, the compassion,
how they're building confidence.
:
00:59:46,308 --> 00:59:53,208
Just so beautifully constructed, so rich
all the elements that they've included.
:
00:59:53,598 --> 00:59:56,838
Because confidence in a
veterinary setting doesn't start
:
00:59:56,838 --> 00:59:59,388
at the vets, it starts at home.
:
01:00:00,096 --> 01:00:00,316
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm
:
01:00:00,603 --> 01:00:01,413
Sarah Fisher: knowing they've
:
01:00:01,786 --> 01:00:02,006
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm
:
01:00:02,103 --> 01:00:05,733
Sarah Fisher: ability to say,
wait, I'm struggling, or No,
:
01:00:06,001 --> 01:00:06,421
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
:
01:00:07,111 --> 01:00:07,501
Yeah,
:
01:00:07,683 --> 01:00:09,213
Sarah Fisher: it's
applicable to everything.
:
01:00:09,393 --> 01:00:12,303
So groomers use it to build relationships.
:
01:00:13,473 --> 01:00:13,743
Sue
:
01:00:14,041 --> 01:00:15,331
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
yeah, yeah.
:
01:00:15,751 --> 01:00:16,201
We've had,
:
01:00:16,318 --> 01:00:16,668
Sarah Fisher: groom.
:
01:00:17,161 --> 01:00:18,511
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you
literally just took the words out.
:
01:00:18,691 --> 01:00:20,461
You took the words out my mouth.
:
01:00:20,461 --> 01:00:23,191
We've had Sue on, and she said
how she uses it, and she's
:
01:00:23,191 --> 01:00:24,181
one of the ladies that said.
:
01:00:24,556 --> 01:00:26,056
To ask, get, get you on.
:
01:00:27,038 --> 01:00:27,618
Sarah Fisher: Oh, amazing.
:
01:00:27,766 --> 01:00:29,176
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Yet she's using it for grieving
:
01:00:29,176 --> 01:00:31,216
all the nervous, nervous dogs and
:
01:00:31,298 --> 01:00:33,813
Sarah Fisher: I, I dunno, a
situation where it wouldn't be
:
01:00:33,813 --> 01:00:36,873
beneficial, but, but of course I
:
01:00:37,036 --> 01:00:37,576
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.
:
01:00:38,086 --> 01:00:42,256
Sarah Fisher: Police dogs, dogs
doing free work before and after
:
01:00:42,256 --> 01:00:45,436
Bite work, sent detection dogs.
:
01:00:46,786 --> 01:00:48,706
I mean, it's, it's mind blowing.
:
01:00:48,706 --> 01:00:54,736
It just helps the dogs reset, rebalance,
and sort of reconnect, mind blowing.
:
01:00:57,060 --> 01:00:57,600
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
:
01:00:57,600 --> 01:00:59,850
Is it helping any other animals?
:
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,095
Not just dogs benefiting from this method?
:
01:01:03,441 --> 01:01:04,041
Sarah Fisher: That's
:
01:01:04,535 --> 01:01:06,095
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Can imagine horses and cats
:
01:01:06,116 --> 01:01:07,216
Sarah Fisher: Horses is amazing.
:
01:01:08,361 --> 01:01:08,991
And another
:
01:01:09,125 --> 01:01:09,635
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
obviously.
:
01:01:09,681 --> 01:01:10,341
Sarah Fisher: for success.
:
01:01:10,341 --> 01:01:10,731
Yeah.
:
01:01:11,101 --> 01:01:11,341
Sorry.
:
01:01:11,401 --> 01:01:16,321
Another person who did the recipe for
success for, for veterinary care lovely
:
01:01:16,321 --> 01:01:19,621
videos up of their horse doing free work.
:
01:01:19,861 --> 01:01:21,961
It's amazing for all animals.
:
01:01:22,201 --> 01:01:24,541
We've had people doing it with rats.
:
01:01:24,691 --> 01:01:26,371
We've had people, you know,
:
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:27,000
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.
:
01:01:27,691 --> 01:01:29,851
Sarah Fisher: of Exactly.
:
01:01:30,061 --> 01:01:32,851
Doing it with all range
of animals in their care.
:
01:01:34,126 --> 01:01:35,401
Sters, I mean, just
:
01:01:35,790 --> 01:01:36,210
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.
:
01:01:37,261 --> 01:01:38,911
Sarah Fisher: It's really fun.
:
01:01:39,420 --> 01:01:42,030
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
It's, it's, yeah.
:
01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:45,240
And it just helps cement that
relationship and build that bond.
:
01:01:45,601 --> 01:01:45,781
Sarah Fisher: Yeah.
:
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:47,070
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Oh my God.
:
01:01:47,070 --> 01:01:49,770
We've literally soured
through this episode.
:
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,560
It has been jam packed.
:
01:01:53,310 --> 01:01:54,420
It's gone really quick.
:
01:01:54,420 --> 01:01:56,400
I could, I could speak to you all day.
:
01:01:56,510 --> 01:02:00,130
And I've listened to you on a
couple of Andrew's webinars before.
:
01:02:01,420 --> 01:02:03,190
We will be hanging out next week.
:
01:02:03,220 --> 01:02:06,910
I'm gonna be, no, I'm gonna be
meeting up with Andrew and, and
:
01:02:06,910 --> 01:02:10,225
stuff on, you know, on the Friday
and I'll be there all weekends.
:
01:02:10,225 --> 01:02:11,590
So we will be hanging out.
:
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,330
I'm a hugger so I dunno if you are.
:
01:02:15,530 --> 01:02:15,700
But.
:
01:02:16,645 --> 01:02:20,665
Yeah, so for our listeners, I mean,
it is, it is beginning of July
:
01:02:20,665 --> 01:02:23,335
at the moment, but this episode
will go out in a couple of months.
:
01:02:23,335 --> 01:02:26,725
But we are gonna be at the A
BK conference next weekend.
:
01:02:26,725 --> 01:02:30,665
And Ashford Kent, Daniel Shaw
who's been on the yappy hour as
:
01:02:30,665 --> 01:02:34,115
well, so that's why we're talking
about meeting up next weekend.
:
01:02:34,115 --> 01:02:35,435
So it's gonna be lovely.
:
01:02:35,765 --> 01:02:39,415
So Sarah, like I said, I've listened
to you before on some Andrew's webinars
:
01:02:39,415 --> 01:02:40,885
and I get to meet you next week.
:
01:02:40,885 --> 01:02:45,595
I cannot wait, but a quick fire round
as we bring this episode to a close.
:
01:02:45,595 --> 01:02:50,665
So what's one free work item
you cannot live without?
:
01:02:50,665 --> 01:02:51,295
Sarah.
:
01:02:52,036 --> 01:02:56,296
Sarah Fisher: I think mini snuffle
mats because we can put them in piles
:
01:02:56,296 --> 01:03:01,276
for dogs to forage through like leaves
and we can create kind of pyramids so
:
01:03:01,276 --> 01:03:05,596
that dogs have got the station height
that's most accessible for them.
:
01:03:05,746 --> 01:03:10,006
So I think when we can use them as sensory
trays, we can use 'em in so many ways.
:
01:03:10,066 --> 01:03:11,026
That's my go-to.
:
01:03:11,266 --> 01:03:13,186
If I could only have one
item, it would be that
:
01:03:16,395 --> 01:03:16,715
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Brilliant.
:
01:03:17,335 --> 01:03:17,995
What's the
:
01:03:22,156 --> 01:03:25,006
Sarah Fisher: the observer book
of dogs that I had as a child,
:
01:03:25,456 --> 01:03:27,436
it was a little red covered book.
:
01:03:27,736 --> 01:03:32,056
I had one on horses and one on dogs,
and I used to read both of those,
:
01:03:32,296 --> 01:03:38,726
learning about the different breeds and
yeah, my, it was my constant companion.
:
01:03:38,726 --> 01:03:42,416
So I think I have to go right back to
my childhood and say that, and also the
:
01:03:42,416 --> 01:03:44,486
incredible journey, another huge childhood
:
01:03:44,650 --> 01:03:45,040
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that,
:
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:48,670
no, I love that.
:
01:03:49,030 --> 01:03:52,105
What's one thing you wish
every dog Guardian knew?
:
01:03:52,105 --> 01:03:52,425
Sarah?
:
01:03:54,266 --> 01:03:59,786
Sarah Fisher: How to really start
considering what a painful landscape
:
01:03:59,786 --> 01:04:01,976
looks like for their animal companion.
:
01:04:02,366 --> 01:04:07,256
Because chronic pain is so difficult
to identify in a veterinary
:
01:04:07,256 --> 01:04:08,996
setting, the space is too small.
:
01:04:08,996 --> 01:04:10,256
There's not enough time.
:
01:04:11,006 --> 01:04:13,796
animal's not relaxed, the
caregiver's not relaxed.
:
01:04:13,976 --> 01:04:15,416
It's really difficult for the vet.
:
01:04:15,836 --> 01:04:22,826
So I would love more people to fall
in love with learning ace observations
:
01:04:22,826 --> 01:04:28,106
because with good observations,
we can ensure our companions are
:
01:04:28,106 --> 01:04:29,936
living the best life possible.
:
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:33,200
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Brilliant.
:
01:04:33,820 --> 01:04:34,110
Okay.
:
01:04:34,495 --> 01:04:40,675
What's one gentle shift you'd encourage
every dog guardian to make today, Sarah?
:
01:04:43,466 --> 01:04:51,776
Sarah Fisher: I think to really stand
back, watch more, and do less, and really
:
01:04:51,776 --> 01:04:58,676
think about providing income for the
dog and not focusing on outcome, move
:
01:04:58,676 --> 01:05:04,166
away from that sort of goal-oriented
way of thinking and enjoy being in
:
01:05:04,166 --> 01:05:06,866
the moment with these amazing animals.
:
01:05:07,256 --> 01:05:11,606
And if we are gonna be a teacher,
what we need to make sure is we
:
01:05:11,606 --> 01:05:17,186
are a really good student, so
be a great student of your dog.
:
01:05:20,165 --> 01:05:20,654
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Love that.
:
01:05:21,105 --> 01:05:24,095
Sarah, how can people
learn more about you?
:
01:05:24,675 --> 01:05:26,415
Ace free work if they
want to get in touch.
:
01:05:28,211 --> 01:05:32,441
Sarah Fisher: We have two
websites, tilly farm.org.uk.
:
01:05:32,441 --> 01:05:39,161
A little bit of information quite
an old website, also we have
:
01:05:39,161 --> 01:05:41,291
animal centered education.com,
:
01:05:41,291 --> 01:05:44,111
which is our teaching
platform that we use.
:
01:05:44,321 --> 01:05:46,181
So there's a little
bit more information on
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01:05:46,275 --> 01:05:46,565
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.
:
01:05:46,991 --> 01:05:49,571
Sarah Fisher: and you can see a
list of the courses that we run.
:
01:05:49,961 --> 01:05:51,671
So we do online courses.
:
01:05:52,001 --> 01:05:55,721
We do online and in-person
courses combined.
:
01:05:56,171 --> 01:06:01,481
Or you can attend an in-person workshop
at Tilly Farm as a standalone event.
:
01:06:02,351 --> 01:06:04,181
And we also on Tilly Farm website
:
01:06:04,185 --> 01:06:04,404
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,
:
01:06:04,901 --> 01:06:09,611
Sarah Fisher: of our amazing
practitioners, trainers, associate
:
01:06:09,611 --> 01:06:14,621
tutors, advanced tutors, and
associate instructors and instructors.
:
01:06:14,621 --> 01:06:19,571
So also connect with someone
either in your area who or who
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01:06:19,571 --> 01:06:21,431
also offers courses online.
:
01:06:22,331 --> 01:06:23,471
team are amazing.
:
01:06:23,950 --> 01:06:24,610
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes.
:
01:06:24,641 --> 01:06:25,331
Sarah Fisher: amazing.
:
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,050
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Yeah, I definitely need to get down
:
01:06:29,050 --> 01:06:30,790
to Tilly farm sometime as well.
:
01:06:30,790 --> 01:06:31,930
It's on my list to do.
:
01:06:32,051 --> 01:06:32,916
Sarah Fisher: Oh, please do.
:
01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:37,270
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Sarah
Fisher, thank you so much for joining
:
01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:41,350
me on the Yappy Hour, powered by today.
:
01:06:41,950 --> 01:06:44,350
I've absolutely loved speaking to you.
:
01:06:44,410 --> 01:06:45,910
Thank you so much for joining us.
:
01:06:47,306 --> 01:06:50,576
Sarah Fisher: Thank you so much and I
can't wait to give you a hug in person.
:
01:06:53,410 --> 01:06:54,940
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
I'm really looking forward to it,
:
01:06:54,940 --> 01:06:56,465
and I'll, I'll see you very soon.
:
01:06:57,476 --> 01:06:57,986
Sarah Fisher: Thank you.
:
01:07:05,482 --> 01:07:08,542
Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:
Wow, what an incredible conversation.
:
01:07:08,602 --> 01:07:10,357
Oh, I can't go over it.
:
01:07:10,362 --> 01:07:11,842
It was absolutely amazing.
:
01:07:11,842 --> 01:07:14,212
I could have listened
to Sarah all day long.
:
01:07:14,782 --> 01:07:17,692
Um, if there's one thing I hate you
take from this episode, it's that
:
01:07:17,692 --> 01:07:20,212
our dogs aren't projects to fix.
:
01:07:20,512 --> 01:07:23,992
They're individuals with
stories, feelings, and needs.
:
01:07:24,382 --> 01:07:29,122
Sarah reminded us of the
power of observation to pause.
:
01:07:29,517 --> 01:07:35,187
To notice the small shifts in movement
or behaviour that tell a much deeper
:
01:07:35,187 --> 01:07:40,797
story, whether you live with a bouncy
puppy, a nervous rescue, or a senior
:
01:07:40,797 --> 01:07:47,757
soul ace free work gives you the tools to
meet your dog where they are and maybe.
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01:07:48,012 --> 01:07:52,992
Just maybe it gives us space
to grow alongside them too.
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01:07:53,802 --> 01:08:02,292
You can learn more about Sarah's
incredible work@www.tillyfarm.org.uk,
:
01:08:02,832 --> 01:08:06,792
and we will put all of the
links in the show notes and if
:
01:08:06,792 --> 01:08:11,087
today's episode resonated with
you, please consider sharing it.
:
01:08:11,487 --> 01:08:17,487
Leaving us a review and help us spread the
message that there's more to, more than
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01:08:17,487 --> 01:08:20,997
one way to walk beside, beside our dogs.
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01:08:21,657 --> 01:08:26,577
Until next time, take care
and keep those towels wagon.