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Slow down, sniff around: Sarah Fisher on ACE Free Work & understanding your dog
Episode 1824th July 2025 • The Yappy Hour • Yappily
00:00:00 01:08:27

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In this episode of The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, your host, Nathan Dunleavy, sits down with internationally respected behaviourist and educator Sarah Fisher. Sarah is the founder of ACE (Animal Centred Education) and the creator of ACE Free Work, a structured yet gentle approach that helps dogs thrive through observation, trust, and choice.

🐾 Whether you live with a nervous rescue, a high-energy adolescent, or a senior dog, this episode will change how you see your dog.

🎧 What you'll learn:

  • What ACE Free Work is and how to get started
  • How observation helps identify hidden stress or pain
  • Why “less is more” when supporting reactive or anxious dogs
  • The importance of sensory experiences in building calm and confidence
  • How ACE is helping in vet practices, grooming salons, rescue shelters and more
  • Practical ways to use Free Work at home, in daily life, or out on walks

🌐 Learn more about Sarah and ACE Free Work:

https://www.animalcentrededucation.com

https://www.tilleyfarm.org.uk

Transcripts

Speaker:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by

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Yappily, where dog guardians meet real

talk expert advice and Waggy tails.

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I'm your host Nathan Dunleavy, and

today I'm gen, generally thrilled

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and so excited to be joined by

someone whose name has come up in

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so many of our previous episodes.

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Sarah Fisher is here.

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Sarah is a behaviour counselor

educator and the founder of Ace.

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Animal centered education and her

free work method has inspired dog

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professionals and pet guardians worldwide.

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It's all about understanding the dog

in front of you, not just managing

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behaviour, but seeing beneath it.

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Today we're talking about observation,

gentle guidance, trust building, and

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what it really means to walk beside

your dog rather than control them.

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If you've ever felt like there's

something more, your dog's trying

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to tell you, this one's for you.

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So grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

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welcome back to The Yappy

Hour, powered by Yappily.

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I'm your host, Nathan D.

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Levy, and I'm so excited to bring you

another episode of The Yappy Hour Today.

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Even more exciting that we have the

amazing Sarah Fisher joining us today.

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Hi Sarah.

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Welcome to the Yappy Hour.

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How are you?

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Sarah Fisher: Hi Nathan.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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I'm great.

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Thank you.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

You are most welcome.

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You are very busy lady, and I appreciate

you taking the time to well spend

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your, we're recording on Friday

evening in, in, in June, well, July.

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No, it's early July.

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July now.

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And I appreciate you taking the time

'cause you are very busy lady and I'm

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just been so looking forward to this chat.

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So, Sarah ace free work, we're gonna

be chatting all about ACE free work.

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So for our listeners and viewers, ACE

stands for Animal Centered Education.

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Sarah, for those dog guardians

who have never heard of free

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work, how oh, actually I'm asking

the, the wrong question to start.

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That's because I've got so

excited that I've chatted to you.

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I've literally gone in

like on the wrong question.

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Right.

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Wee ride.

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Brilliant.

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Right.

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Anyway, how did your passion for

animal behaviour and welfare begin?

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Please, Sarah.

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Sarah Fisher: Oh, great question.

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Right back in childhood,

both of my parents, both pate

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grandparents had animals.

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Dogs were a huge part of our lives for

generations, and my father in particular

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would always remind me that the animals

that were part of our family were

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there because we'd invited them in.

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They hadn't chosen to be with

us, and as a result, we had to

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always put their needs first.

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He was also obsessive, but really,

really, you know, instilled in me that

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need for animals to have access to

fresh water at all times, to have their

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needs met, took care of our own needs.

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And so that whole connection with

animals and choice and being sentient

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beings and being a, you know, a very

much valued part of our family was

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instilled in me in a, in a very early age.

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And my Aunt Labrador

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Love that.

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Sarah Fisher: in the left hip.

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And as a child I was told

we could, you know, pet him.

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If he enjoyed that, we

could engage with him.

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But we were not to touch him on the

left hip because it was uncomfortable.

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And if he growled, we would be

the ones that got into trouble.

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So, you know, just so much knowledge

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: from a really

early age that I think drives

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Yeah, I absolutely love that.

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Love that so much.

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I'm a, I'm a bit of a late bloomer.

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I didn't get my first dog

tour about 10 years ago.

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And now I'm obsessed

because I've got seven dogs.

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So, like the crazy dog man.

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Sarah Fisher: That to me, my

parents wouldn't lemme have

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, it is.

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Sarah Fisher: Yeah.

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Sorry.

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My parents wouldn't let me have a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

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Sarah Fisher: when I was young,

so they didn't want me to, you

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know, grow out of the pony and

then we'd have to rehome the pony.

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That would be too awful.

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And we couldn't have afforded two

ponies, so I wasn't allowed one.

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So as soon as I was able to

start collecting horses, I did.

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And at one point, I think we had 15.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Brilliant horse collection.

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Well, I, yeah, I waited until I met my

husband and we've got a house together.

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'cause I'd lived in a flat and I

was like, right, we've got a house.

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We're settling down, getting a dog.

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Sarah Fisher: Good.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

then seven dogs later here we are.

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Sarah Fisher: Life's

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I love it.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

brilliant.

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It is complete.

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Yeah.

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We wouldn't have it any other way.

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So Sarah, thank you so much.

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What led you to the development

of ACE Free work please?

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Sarah Fisher: Nathan, that's

an hour long answer in itself.

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I, I have been known to speak for

45 minutes without drawing breath,

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answering one question as people that

have heard me speak before can confirm.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

You said that offline.

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Sarah Fisher: Yeah, so a lot.

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I think big part of free work

is influenced by my childhood.

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Again, when I was on holiday in Portugal

with my family, long before Portugal

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became a tourist destination and hotspot,

we would rent a villa in this tiny town

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that's now, I'm sure, hugely popular.

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And my sister and parents would

be sunbathing on the beach.

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And I'd be off exploring the rock

pools in the company of some of the

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street dogs, and they were free roaming

dogs that belong to the community.

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And I would kind of be adopted by

a dog, or maybe I adopted a dog I'd

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have a companion every day for the

fortnight that we would be there.

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And it, it just.

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Was just the richest part of,

excuse me, I've got hiccups that

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hit holiday experience for me.

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Didn't have any toys,

didn't have any food.

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It was just the joy of exploring.

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the same at home.

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I was lucky enough to buy my

own dog when I was 11 with money

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that I'd been gifted in a will.

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I also had sort of collected a number

of dogs from our local neighborhood

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who I would take up onto Eps and Downs

where I grew up and enjoy their company.

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Just exploring and roaming, you know,

thank you to all the adults that did

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give me the, you know, they're, they're

companions to go off and spend many

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happy hours exploring the downs with.

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I think that kind of freedom, that

connection, that exploring, that joy

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of just being in the company of dogs.

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And I've been, I've been

obsessed with animals since I.

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As far as I can remember,

so that exploration element,

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100% influences free work.

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Then my original background human

massage, anatomy and physiology and

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supporting people who, who are, you

know, faced with losing their children.

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It was due to a friend of mine

whose child was dying from a brain

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tumor and spent a lot of time at

Great or Ormond Street Hospital.

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of sent me on that path of looking

at human health and wellbeing

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and how if you can't influence

an outcome, what can you do?

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We get a bit fixated on outcomes

as a culture, but particularly

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in the animal education world.

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And of course in that environment

you can't change the outcome, but

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you can support and hold and connect

in a nonverbal way with people that

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are facing the most horrendous.

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Element of, you know, being,

being a parent, you don't

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expect to outlive your child.

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So within that, there was a lot

of learning about the connection

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between emotions and physicality.

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friend would walk into me and in the horse

world that would be classed as dominance,

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the animal not respecting your space.

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And I just remember that she was so

physically out of balance because

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of the emotional toll she was under.

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She had no concept of awareness of

how she was navigating the corridors

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of Great Ormond Street Hospital.

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And from that human learning took me

off down other paths that were really

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relevant to how we connect with animals.

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also spent time doing learning, doing and

teaching tea touch so that also part of my

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,

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Sarah Fisher: background

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: lovely.

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Sarah Fisher: looking at how we

could help dogs settle in the space

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that we'd created at Tilly Farm when

they were new in that environment.

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So for my one-to-ones, I would have kind

of enrichment engagements ready, but

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this was before the snuffle mat existed.

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you even imagine life

before snuffle nights?

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And people would say, oh,

my dog's not interested.

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dog's not interested in things like this.

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We've tried for, you know, foraging

and the nose and everything, and

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I, I would raise the stuff off the

ground so it wasn't at floor height.

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And suddenly these dogs were

really interested not to the

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amazement of their caregiver.

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Because if a dog's physically and or

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: and the two often go

together uncomfortable, they don't

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feel safe putting their nose to

the ground changing the way they

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were able to engage with those

items, not only help the dog relax.

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helped the caregiver relax.

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learning easier for both

the caregiver and the dog.

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also what was really noticeable was the

caregiver would share more of their story

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and their struggle with their companion.

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And the companion struggle with me earlier

on in the session opposed to as many

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people will know, of skirting around the

major that is causing such disruption in

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their life and only mentioning that at

the end or towards the end of the session.

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And it's a really common thing

that we have to build up trust.

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The person might only share more

significant when they know they've

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got what I call the get out clause.

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It's time to leave, and we

were having amazing outcomes.

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'cause the dogs were so

relaxed when we moved

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: areas of the

farm, the relaxed lead walking

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was like almost instant.

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They were less hypervigilant

looking for wildlife.

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They were able just to stand

and process the sight of my

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or the wildlife on the farm.

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they were kind of sowing the seeds

for what we'd now call free work.

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And now it's this amazing

integrated method by cookie Dough

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Dynamo who joined me in 2008,

and Henry who joined me in:

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17 and cookie dough found

the world overstimulating.

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And she totally changed the direction

that I was moving in when it

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came to canine education because

people were saying, train more.

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Train more.

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would navigate the world with her teeth,

and she's only little All terrier.

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She's an amazing dog,

super fast processor.

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And I did fall into that trap.

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But then I realized really quickly

in teaching her lots of skills.

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A, she was brighter than me.

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B, she was always gonna be faster

at learning than I could ever be.

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And CI actually wasn't

helping her find contentment,

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connection, peace, tranquility.

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All I was doing was redirecting the

way she interacted with her world.

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Into different scenarios,

onto different objects.

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So teaching her to engage

with toys saved my skin.

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I was black and blue, saved

my trouser legs, saved

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: you know, my shirt collar.

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But it didn't help her calmer

and safer in sensory world.

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I was integrating my human knowledge with

that and knowing the benefits of sensory.

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Input for people that had some form of

cognitive dysfunction or disconnection

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to, you know, some areas of their

body due to injury or disease states.

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I then looked more into that and came

across the work of Gene Ays, who was

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an American psychologist who developed

sensory integration theory, a way of

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supporting children and people with

learning struggles, including with

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sensory overload and sensory overload.

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And that was the real start of free

work, bringing everything in together.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: added even more

structure to that in:

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So it's become structured method

of supporting dogs and enhancing

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education in its own right.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Wow.

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Fascinating.

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Wow, you answered that one a

lot quicker than 45 minutes.

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Sarah Fisher: I am trying,

Nathan, I'm trying.

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I've

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

doing well.

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Sarah Fisher: Yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No, please.

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Sarah Fisher: Be

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No, don't you worry.

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No, don't you worry.

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I absolutely love it.

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I've got a cookie, not a cookie

day, but we have a cookie, so

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I'm glad you've got a cookie day.

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Sarah Fisher: I like that.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

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Sarah, do you know what Ace and

Ace Free work, and you have been

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mentioned in so many past episodes

of the Yappy Hour, everyone says

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ACE Free Work and Sarah Fisher.

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What does it mean to you seeing

the reach and impact that it's.

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Sarah Fisher: It, it really, it

really moves me and it really

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humbles me because I spend.

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of my life in a glorious ace bubble,

connecting with people that are

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looking for this, learning, this way

of supporting, this way, of improving

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observations and enhancing the lives

of their animals, and obviously

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enhancing that relationship and,

and their life with their animal.

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So I, I, I am blessed with an amazing ace

community of incredible teachers, people

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that have been there from the beginning,

my amazing ace instructor, colleague

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Sarah with, who's been there for 17,

18 years, since we started to explore

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: of these concepts with the

dogs of Baty, where I first met Sarah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: I see that reach, I see the

feedback, I see the joy of new students

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seeing their dogs through new eyes.

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But I have no concept other than

that of how far this spreads.

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And when somebody said to me

recently, you have, you have no idea

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how many people talk about this.

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It, it kind.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yep.

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Sarah Fisher: it, I'm not often lost

for words, Nathan, but it really

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, bless.

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Sarah Fisher: quite extraordinary

and really moving because I don't

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think I have developed free work.

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I don't believe I own free work.

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the dogs that have been a part of my

life and the horses too have shown

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me power of standing back watching.

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More and doing less particularly

Cookie Dough and Henry

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

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Sarah Fisher: a dog at

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

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Sarah Fisher: showed me the value

of having different textures

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on defer that saved his life.

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And these amazing animals are

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

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Sarah Fisher: honored and they're

changing lives, and they're saving

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lives through all they shared with me.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: to me is a

very humbling experience.

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And yeah, I, I can't believe how far

it's and how many lives it touches and

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It.

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Sarah Fisher: I.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It really has.

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So literally every episode you

get mentioned and so does Ace.

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So I was desperate to get you on and

I know, you know you've been so busy

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and like, and I'm just so honored

that you took the time to meet with

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me today because like I say, everyone

said, oh, you have to get Sarah on.

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And everyone was talking

about Sarah and Ace.

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And obviously I know about you through

Andrew and some other colleagues and,

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and I was just desperate to speak to

you 'cause I've got like, I, I follow

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you as well and I've got one of your

books and yeah, it's just, I'm just

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really honored that you've come on.

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So I feel a bit starstruck myself,

but it, no, it's been lovely that

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it gets mentioned on most episodes.

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Sarah Fisher: You are, you're so lovely.

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I'm so, I, I just get to meet

incredible people like you and

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wherever we are on that learning

journey, no one has more knowledge.

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We've just got different knowledge and

different experience, and obviously

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really close friends like Andy Hale,

you know, to be able to share the same

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space with people like Andy's and some

of my amazing ACE colleagues as well.

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People like Sarah Heath, amazing

veterinary behaviourists,

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who I've known for 30 years.

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Just feel

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: I have been given such

a great gift through connecting with

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these amazing, forgiving and giving

animals and more and more voices

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that are sharing the same message.

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Just empower other

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Sarah Fisher: to really reconsider

how they connect with animals and

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live alongside animals and really

help them reframe their thinking and

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question some existing beliefs that

we've kind of all gone along with and

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repeated without necessarily stepping

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: and saying, on a minute,

is this a human led experience?

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Or is dog actually trying to share

different with us or would find it easier

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if we took time to stand back and learn

from them instead of rushing in with

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our tips and ideas for problem solving?

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And that was something

Cookie Dough taught,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: me.

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Instead of me thinking, oh, oh, I

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

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Sarah Fisher: can teach you

this and I can give you this

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experience and that will help you.

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It was like, stop.

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Just stop.

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does cookie

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: to navigate her world?

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Where are the gaps in her learning

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Sarah Fisher: How can I extend her

sensory reference library, giving

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her complete control of that learning

experience that the world is not quite

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as overwhelming and as overstimulating

as it is for this 20 week old.

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Puppy who's come through Batey

to me as her fifth foster home.

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And I just

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Sarah Fisher: I just

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Bless.

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Sarah Fisher: people like you, Nathan,

who are part of that sharing of

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these incredible adventures that we

can have together and exciting new

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discoveries and really supporting

people saying, you're not alone.

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If you are seeing what we are seeing

and if what we are saying is really

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resonating with you, but you haven't

maybe had the courage to stand up and

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say, I've learned, what I am being taught

been a great experience, but it's not

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right for me and my animal companion.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Yeah.

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They're our greatest

teachers, aren't they?

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And I just love when you say, you know,

we just need, we just need to slow down.

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Less is more.

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Observe and listen,

that's all we need to do.

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Sarah Fisher: One thing I'm

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, brilliant.

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Right.

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We're gonna move.

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Sarah Fisher: sorry.

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One thing, I'm sure I've,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, go on.

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Please do.

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Sarah Fisher: yeah.

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One thing, for example, in free work,

basically free work, think some enrichment

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engagements alongside education with

exploration with the dog being the

376

:

pilot of their home learning experience.

377

:

And our role air traffic controller

to guide them back to a safer

378

:

flight path if necessary, or maybe

be their co-pilot from time to

379

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I love.

380

:

Sarah Fisher: And we call what we would

create as a snuffling opportunity or

381

:

as a licking opportunity, a station.

382

:

So we might have a base and then a topper.

383

:

That could be a range of snuffle

mats, different silicon mats.

384

:

So we kind of create all these

different layouts and then.

385

:

We can modify that rule of,

you know, not rule of thumb.

386

:

Little, little tip.

387

:

Generally you don't want

the station higher than the

388

:

top of the dog's front leg.

389

:

So it's not about the dog

stretching and it's not about the

390

:

dog necessarily having to bend and

pick everything up off the floor.

391

:

We do put treats on the floor so

the dog doesn't have to approach

392

:

something that may be visually very

different, anything that might be a

393

:

novel texture before they're ready.

394

:

And then we just kind of hang back

395

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

396

:

Sarah Fisher: the dog's happy

to explore on their own.

397

:

But one, and we see these

398

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

399

:

Sarah Fisher: patterns that we just have

never observed in any other context, but

400

:

the dogs have been doing them in other

contexts, but we just haven't really

401

:

been aware it's not been on our radar.

402

:

And the main thing, one of the

main things how people choose to

403

:

greet people and pick up that data.

404

:

And I 100% will have.

405

:

Talked about or shared maybe taught, oh

yeah, put your hand down, let the dog

406

:

come and sniff the back of your hand.

407

:

when we actually watch dogs in

free work, guess what, Nathan?

408

:

They don't do that.

409

:

What they do is they

explore their environment.

410

:

The anxious dogs more likely to

explore in an anti-clockwise direction.

411

:

Not all, but a strong.

412

:

Number, you know, high proportion

of anxious dogs navigate the space

413

:

in anti-clockwise So A, how does

that fit with what we might do when

414

:

we're out and the dog's on a leash?

415

:

Because traditionally we handle our

dogs on our left, so we are more

416

:

likely to turn a dog to the right

interrupt their needs to explore

417

:

moving in an anti-clockwise direction.

418

:

Some dogs need to stick to the

boundary, the wall, first of all.

419

:

So how can we replicate that?

420

:

We need to avoid taking those dogs

across open park land, keep to a

421

:

hedge, you know, see what the dog

needs when they're in a new space.

422

:

And once they then start to explore

free work, what they do is they just

423

:

casually glance towards maybe two

or three people, or maybe only one.

424

:

Never the whole group back and

forage in one of our very creative

425

:

stations, and we named them after

the dogs that inspired them.

426

:

Then they lift their head up

and air sense towards, go back

427

:

to foraging and exploring.

428

:

Then they start this casual walk

by just one or two people, even if

429

:

there's five or 10 people in the room.

430

:

Then they go back to exploration, and

then when they're ready, they come and

431

:

start sensing if they're emotionally

and physically comfortable enough

432

:

to do it, the shoe and lower leg.

433

:

Then they might walk by another person.

434

:

Then they return maybe in a

second session, maybe in the first

435

:

session and sent from the hip up.

436

:

Picking up more data from the trunk

of the person before they orientate

437

:

themselves in a way that they can

air accent the person's breath.

438

:

Hardly any dog, unless there's

been a really strong reinforcement

439

:

history, approaches the people first.

440

:

They all explore first.

441

:

Hardly any dog comes and

actually sniffs the hand.

442

:

And the only time they may sniff the

hand is maybe that person has already

443

:

engaged with their dog and has been

laying food out in their free work.

444

:

And then when you see

this, you can't unsee it.

445

:

So we see it in the shelter, we see it

with puppies, we see it with dogs outside.

446

:

When unfamiliar people are maybe

in that space, some dogs will

447

:

wait till the person's left to

then scent where that person was

448

:

standing, and it's mind blowing.

449

:

So where did we get concept that

dogs want to come and scent our hand?

450

:

not criticizing that.

451

:

I'm not saying it might not be a

useful skill to teach some dogs, but we

452

:

have missed so many amazing patterns.

453

:

So many beautiful, nuanced.

454

:

Engagement.

455

:

So many subtle conversations free work

literally puts a spotlight on everything.

456

:

What dogs

457

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

458

:

Sarah Fisher: to do when they're starting

a session, many times they might repeat

459

:

an engagement if we invite them to

engage with us so we can add some life

460

:

skills into that foundation of free work.

461

:

What does a dog do

462

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

463

:

Sarah Fisher: when they need to stop?

464

:

Take a rest.

465

:

go out to the bathroom, may

maybe have a break completely.

466

:

They finish finished.

467

:

Clues are also clear, but they're so

easy to overlook and muddle up with a

468

:

dog wanting to learn more or do more.

469

:

And the other amazing thing that's

come out of free work is the majority

470

:

of dogs will engage in explore

free work for about 17 minutes.

471

:

And then they need to stop and process.

472

:

And this is well documented in humans.

473

:

TED Talks are only 18 minutes long.

474

:

So how can we then break down the learning

experience for puppies, adolescent

475

:

dogs, dogs and shelters that may never

have learned any life skill at all?

476

:

In one-to-ones, we obviously

can't say, Hey, come and

477

:

join a 17 minute puppy class.

478

:

one's gonna do it.

479

:

But we can break that learning

experience down into 12 to 15, 17 minute

480

:

little time budgets, and then follow

that through with access to a chew.

481

:

when dogs are processing in free

work, what they tend to pick up

482

:

are the bigger crunchier treats.

483

:

It's a part of a sensory experience,

and we need to think of food.

484

:

Way beyond being a treat or re reward.

485

:

It's a sensory experience.

486

:

a way of really supporting that dog

accelerating, enhancing, learning.

487

:

But the dog will choose what they find

rewarding, not what we think might be a

488

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

489

:

Sarah Fisher: for them.

490

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

491

:

Love that.

492

:

It's all about the dog cheese in.

493

:

Sarah Fisher: Yep.

494

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

495

:

If a guardian's never heard of free

work, how would you describe it?

496

:

In simple terms?

497

:

Sarah Fisher: I would think about

it being of enriching engagement.

498

:

So we're gonna create

499

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

500

:

Sarah Fisher: for the dogs to forage

and chew and lick and explore.

501

:

Scent, don't have to use food.

502

:

We can create really exciting, novel,

free work setups with household items.

503

:

You know, my dogs always used to enjoy.

504

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

505

:

Sarah Fisher: Laundry day or when I would

come home with bags or shopping, or if

506

:

I'd been in the company of other dogs

and giving them the time to really pick

507

:

up that scent data is really important.

508

:

So we can create amazing

509

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

510

:

Sarah Fisher: setups from household

items that are obviously safe and stable.

511

:

So we would put out three

512

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

513

:

Sarah Fisher: different types of

stations to begin with and just let

514

:

the dog explore and think enrichment.

515

:

really consider is it a really enriching

engagement on a physical level and

516

:

a cognitive and emotional level.

517

:

Because sometimes with videos that I see

online, and this isn't a criticism, I

518

:

applaud anyone that's to trying to add

value to their dog's life and meet their

519

:

intrinsic needs, but sometimes those

520

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

521

:

Sarah Fisher: offerings.

522

:

physically because the dog's painful

or they're creating frustration.

523

:

So if I see teeth marks on anything

including like a silicon mat for, for

524

:

licking, or I see the dog biting at that,

525

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

526

:

Sarah Fisher: may not be leaving

teeth marks, what I see is body

527

:

tension, frustration, not a

rewarding experience at all.

528

:

So free work brings

529

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

530

:

Sarah Fisher: elements that the

dogs enjoy, but with it added of

531

:

observations so we can ensure it's a

532

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

533

:

Sarah Fisher: rewarding

engagement on every single level.

534

:

And I think it meets dogs' needs

and it also engages every part

535

:

of them, including, you know,

their amazing sensory systems.

536

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

537

:

Brilliant.

538

:

I love that you've touched on observation

because that's, oh, I don't mind at all.

539

:

I love it.

540

:

Observation, the power of

observations, our next section.

541

:

So why is observation such a

key part to the ACE approach?

542

:

Sarah Fisher: we've just started

teaching module one, so that's

543

:

our, part of our animal centered

education training program.

544

:

And we finished a module

three the week before.

545

:

Module one is just about

the intro of observations.

546

:

Looking at your dog's ear position,

looking at how they organize their

547

:

limbs at the stations in free work.

548

:

How do they navigate that space?

549

:

Do they need to explore

in an anti-clockwise way?

550

:

How can we take that learning

into all areas of a dog's life?

551

:

happening with their coat?

552

:

Because it was a dog in the

:

553

:

of the R-S-P-C-A showed me how.

554

:

coat is influenced by what's going on

in the structures beneath the coat.

555

:

So I, I used to do a whole

presentation on what lies beneath,

556

:

sort of talking about the story

and linking it in with, you know,

557

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

558

:

Sarah Fisher: films like Jaws and,

you know, sort of making anatomical

559

:

references and, and the whole

concept was what lies beneath?

560

:

Really helping guardians

561

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

562

:

Sarah Fisher: to say, hang on a

minute, my dog is pulling when on

563

:

the lead, not because of a lack

of learning, because they're front

564

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

565

:

Sarah Fisher: because they've

got mobility in the hind limbs.

566

:

So they've shunted their weight

567

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

568

:

Sarah Fisher: and they're pulling

themselves along from the four quarters

569

:

and the hair over the shoulders

and the neck is really exaggerated.

570

:

And I just thought that was part

of their natural coat pattern.

571

:

at the spread of the toes,

how the tail is being carried.

572

:

How do they carry their tongue?

573

:

the tongue and the tail are connected

through the fascia, they're also

574

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

575

:

Sarah Fisher: part of

the dog's balance system.

576

:

So it tells me when I meet a dog

whose history I might not know,

577

:

maybe when I used to do court

assessments, they've been seized.

578

:

I dunno anything about them.

579

:

They're, they're held in secure kennels.

580

:

Maybe they're in a shelter having

been picked up as a stray with no

581

:

history at all, it tells me a lot

more about where this dog is at

582

:

their mobility in there learning

experience, how they're responding to.

583

:

Some of the stuff we'll have out in free

work gives us so many more clues about all

584

:

these little threads that weave together

to create the more obvious picture coat

585

:

patterns are now widely recognized.

586

:

And it's thanks to a dog called Sandy

in the:

587

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

588

:

Sarah Fisher: to, yeah, this incredible

story that is told just through the

589

:

dog's coat, nevermind everything else.

590

:

So we want to establish the

591

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

592

:

Sarah Fisher: We want to

establish a baseline for a dog.

593

:

And our module one students are saying,

oh my goodness, my dog crabs to the right.

594

:

Oh my goodness, I never noticed the

dog's ears were unlevel the ears

595

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

596

:

Sarah Fisher: neck.

597

:

The neck linked to balance, obviously,

and the dog will overuse that four

598

:

part of their body if they've got hip

issues, knee issues, lumbar spine issues.

599

:

So lots of dogs with unlevel ears.

600

:

Often have undiagnosed chronic pain in

the hind limb, and when we can help them

601

:

gather data for the vet, we can then have

obviously pain addressed, bring in other

602

:

people, veterinary physiotherapists,

and support all that through free work.

603

:

We have amazing outcomes where the le

ears become more level, the tail is

604

:

central instead of always hanging to

the left or the right, the tongue has

605

:

got more freedom of movement instead

of maybe always hanging to one side

606

:

because of a curve in the body where

the dog was trying to offload painful

607

:

structures, but it was so subtle, the

caregiver wa wasn't aware of it at all.

608

:

So observations are the starting

point, and they're an ongoing element

609

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

610

:

Sarah Fisher: And I really

encourage people to look

611

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

612

:

Sarah Fisher: photographs, look at still

photographs of your dog as a puppy.

613

:

Look at how they sit, how do they

organize their body when they need to

614

:

defecate, do they have to Do they have to,

615

:

you know, do sort of circular

movements or move forward?

616

:

Are they unable to maintain

that squat position?

617

:

That's all indicative of potential

chronic pain or poor balance.

618

:

And obviously the two are connected.

619

:

if they scratch the ground

after or defecating, they lift

620

:

one leg higher than the other?

621

:

Do they only scratch with one

limb they scratch their neck

622

:

response to wearing equipment or.

623

:

You know, if they've got some level of

discomfort or emotional concerns, do

624

:

they only scratch one side of their neck?

625

:

Is it because they can't

scratch with the other?

626

:

We, we start piecing all these

amazing clues together and people

627

:

in the first, you know, experiences

of ACE and free work have been able

628

:

to get the diagnosis of luxating

patella, hip dysplasia, lumbosacral

629

:

disease, even in young dogs that

630

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

631

:

Sarah Fisher: that you wouldn't

think would be suffering

632

:

from such chronic conditions.

633

:

And most of those dogs were

sensitive to unfamiliar people.

634

:

Some of them had a bite history.

635

:

And we share that emotional

journey in our zooms, in our

636

:

practical workshops at the farm.

637

:

You know, we, we literally weep

with relief for this dog and

638

:

this caregiver and this beautiful

639

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

640

:

Sarah Fisher: that's now able to

blossom because the animals pain free.

641

:

And then we have amazing people.

642

:

We have a veterinary

643

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

644

:

Sarah Fisher: teaches on one of the

modules, and Sarah Heath teaches as well.

645

:

So, know, it's all adding layers

to say, watching, keep watching.

646

:

And you know what, me

647

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

648

:

Sarah Fisher: people use the word,

oh, your dog doesn't respect you.

649

:

And they know, I don't,

I don't really listen

650

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

651

:

Sarah Fisher: kind of stuff and I

don't get involved in conversations.

652

:

For me, the word re respect means

to look again, re as in return.

653

:

and SPECT as in spectacle, spectator

654

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

655

:

Sarah Fisher: Look,

656

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

657

:

Sarah Fisher: looking, keep

looking, because there is

658

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

And keep looking.

659

:

Sarah Fisher: For behaviour, and

there is always a reason for movement.

660

:

And movement is the foundation

661

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

662

:

Sarah Fisher: Without movement, voluntary

and involuntary, life can't exist.

663

:

So we need to look at the

quality of that movement.

664

:

If your dogs always trotting, are they

really keen are they trying to offload

665

:

painful structures by moving quickly?

666

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

667

:

Sarah Fisher: things to

look at and to to discover.

668

:

we could want to know about Our companions

is right there in front of us, Nathan.

669

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, definitely.

670

:

Is there any examples that you could

share of any subtle signs that dogs

671

:

show us that are often missed by people

672

:

Sarah Fisher: Oh gosh.

673

:

Loads.

674

:

Absolutely loads.

675

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

like, yeah.

676

:

Sarah Fisher: yeah, I mean one of the

things that I noticed was when a dog

677

:

starts staring at a treat pouch or starts

counter surfing in the teaching rooms

678

:

where we have the kitchen area, it is

so easy to misinterpret that as the dog

679

:

looking to learn more, looking to work or

being greedy and looking for more food.

680

:

And it's not, it's a sign

that the dog needs a break.

681

:

So they are defaulting to well

practice behaviours or moving into

682

:

a, you know, familiar environment.

683

:

A kitchen.

684

:

It's not theirs, but it's a kitchen.

685

:

It's a clearly a kitchen,

and I think we misinterpret.

686

:

When a dog needs to process what we

are teaching them, we're not mindful

687

:

of this 17 minute time budget, and

the dog starts to kind of offer

688

:

lots of well practice behaviours or

default to breed specific behaviours

689

:

that require no thinking because

they're, you know, bred into the dog.

690

:

We see it as a request to do more with

us, or the dog defaulting and disengaging.

691

:

And it's not, it can be a

sign that the dog's utterly

692

:

overloaded and just needs a break.

693

:

So if I need a

694

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

695

:

Sarah Fisher: writing, I do something

that doesn't require much thinking.

696

:

I just walk out and I admire on our

farm, the donkeys and the horses

697

:

that I can kind of integrate what I'm

trying to think about and put on paper.

698

:

not me displacing.

699

:

It's me exploring and giving my

brain time to piece everything

700

:

together with a behaviour that

doesn't require me to think about it.

701

:

'cause walking.

702

:

We don't have to think about

walking unless we have a

703

:

physical challenge with walking.

704

:

don't need to think about being around

horses because they're so familiar to me.

705

:

Does that make sense?

706

:

So we've missed all these little

707

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

708

:

Sarah Fisher: signs and the, we need

to talk about comfort eating in dogs

709

:

because I see this, they start to

request this food when they don't

710

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

711

:

Sarah Fisher: else to do.

712

:

They also look for crunchy treats

to consolidate that learning.

713

:

And we also need to be

714

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

715

:

Sarah Fisher: the sensory side of

biting all the youngsters that I've been

716

:

privileged to learn from over the years,

like cookie dough and Henry and other

717

:

dogs too, they've all had to navigate

their world using their teeth with, you

718

:

know, significant intensity on humans.

719

:

But we know in children and adults

that are struggling with sensory

720

:

input, they too use their teeth

because using the teeth helps to

721

:

process that sensory experience.

722

:

And biting on something can also help

to maybe manage discomfort as well.

723

:

And physical and emotional

discomfort are intertwined.

724

:

And we, we have this weird thing

in the human world where we kind of

725

:

equate biting with either mouthing, we

recognize as a learning element to this,

726

:

but it's mouthing or it's aggression.

727

:

And even in the human world, if

we are overcome with emotion, just

728

:

deep love for a baby, an animal,

a partner, we might feel that

729

:

urge to sink our teeth into them.

730

:

And even that.

731

:

the word aggression in it.

732

:

'cause it's called cute aggression,

but it's not an intent to do harm.

733

:

It's a way of managing this overwhelming

sensation in the body created by love.

734

:

So there's just so much

we need to explore.

735

:

There's so much that we want to

compartmentalize and have quite a black

736

:

and white outlook on it, and dogs are

so much more beautifully nuanced than

737

:

we could ever hope to be as a two-legged

species who's woefully, you know, in

738

:

inadequate in terms of sensory processing.

739

:

That's how I feel.

740

:

We,

741

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

742

:

Sarah Fisher: we need to be

743

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

744

:

Sarah Fisher: student of the dog and

not fixate on being their teacher.

745

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Great, brilliant.

746

:

I love that.

747

:

Moving on to our next part, which is

all about connection over control.

748

:

I hate the word control.

749

:

So connection over control.

750

:

How can guardians begin to shift

their mindset from fixing an

751

:

inverted behaviours to understanding

an inverted behaviours instead?

752

:

Sarah Fisher: Join free work,

the help of some of our amazing

753

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

754

:

Sarah Fisher: or, you know,

or create free work for

755

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

756

:

Sarah Fisher: we give a

lot of information away.

757

:

Excuse me, it's too good not to share.

758

:

As I said at the beginning,

it belongs to the dogs.

759

:

It was created and developed by

dogs, for dogs and other animals.

760

:

just start to see your dog,

sorry, excuse me, with new eyes.

761

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No worries.

762

:

Sarah Fisher: and let them teach you.

763

:

And then we start to realize how our dogs

are able to build connection with themself

764

:

when we create free work for them.

765

:

Connection with us and

connection with other elements

766

:

of that external environment.

767

:

the more we focus on the dog's internal

environment, the less disruptive that

768

:

external environment will be, and we

start to kind of mirror each other.

769

:

We don't need to teach life skills in

the way that maybe is more traditional

770

:

in repetition and fun and everything.

771

:

If we teach these skills within the

framework of free work, the dog can opt

772

:

in and out of that engagement and we learn

more about their learning preferences.

773

:

We also in Ace, talk about, your

dog really distracted or has

774

:

the dog just disengaged from

what you're inviting them to do?

775

:

Dogs don't lose focus.

776

:

They shift focus.

777

:

And we always want to ask ourselves

778

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

779

:

Sarah Fisher: question?

780

:

Everything.

781

:

Everything you see,

782

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

783

:

Sarah Fisher: you hear in your wonderful

podcasts, including the one that they

784

:

might be listening today, question

everything, but never question the dog.

785

:

The dog is always right.

786

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

787

:

Yeah.

788

:

Love that.

789

:

Thank you, Sarah.

790

:

What role does environment and choice

play in canine wellbeing, please.

791

:

Sarah Fisher: To me, it's

fundamental to wellbeing.

792

:

If we don't have control over even

some aspects of our environment,

793

:

it can make us feel really unsafe.

794

:

So at Titty Farm, we make sure the dogs

know where the exit points are, even

795

:

if they've come in from one end, and

they might be connecting with their

796

:

caregiver and free work at the opposite

end, that we make sure that they know.

797

:

But they know that dogs are amazing.

798

:

make sure that the doors are

open, if the dogs are worried.

799

:

If the dog's really fearful, we drive.

800

:

Or we don't.

801

:

We get the caregiver to drive

their car into that free work space

802

:

so the dog can leave their car

when they're ready and return to

803

:

their car as soon as they're able.

804

:

And I call it a get out clause.

805

:

You know, everybody wants a get

out clause when signing a contract.

806

:

So for me, the more control a dog

has over their environment and their

807

:

interaction with us, the deeper the

trust, easier it is for the dog to say,

808

:

woo, I'm struggling with a really quiet

whisper instead of having to shout.

809

:

So to me, it's fundamental.

810

:

It's a really intrinsic need in us all.

811

:

all need agency.

812

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

813

:

Sarah Fisher: you can't have choice.

814

:

So it's not about saying to dogs.

815

:

You get to do what you want all the time.

816

:

'cause life isn't like that for any of us.

817

:

But when Henry

818

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

819

:

Sarah Fisher: joined me, he'd get really

frustrated really quickly if a door

820

:

wasn't open going into the free work area.

821

:

So I just started having all the doors

open so he could get there straight away.

822

:

But as he started to slow down, I could

keep the door, one of the doors shut, have

823

:

all of them open apart from maybe the last

door, and then I could have doors in the

824

:

building shut then I could leave them.

825

:

I could, you know, leave them

locked and unlock them with him

826

:

because he knew he was gonna be able

827

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

828

:

Sarah Fisher: access this

wonderful experience.

829

:

He started to self-regulate.

830

:

I didn't try and teach him, I just let

him find that rhythm for him himself.

831

:

more we meet a dog's

832

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

833

:

Sarah Fisher: The more peaceful

and contented they are in

834

:

all aspects of their life.

835

:

Nathan?

836

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, definitely.

837

:

I'm loving.

838

:

We're seeing these words, consent

agency and choice a lot more now, and

839

:

there's more of a shift to these, you

know, that way, and it's so important.

840

:

So ace in everyday life, how can free

work be integrated into daily routines?

841

:

Are there some simple ways we

can do it at home or on a walk?

842

:

Sarah Fisher: absolutely a great question.

843

:

yeah, making sure that

844

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

845

:

Sarah Fisher: have got access to

Forage sent spend quality time with

846

:

you when we're not engaged in at our

devices, doing work on our computer.

847

:

I started to just kind of hang out

with Henry for 10, 15 minutes a day

848

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Hang out with your dog.

849

:

Sarah Fisher: not listening to music,

850

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Love her.

851

:

Sarah Fisher: and it was amazing and.

852

:

If the dog's worried about going

into the outside world for a walk,

853

:

think about what does a walk mean.

854

:

So for me with Henry, it means quality

time together, moving over different

855

:

substrates, different terrain.

856

:

So he is moving his body in a different

way that walk, using his nose,

857

:

picking up data from the wildlife.

858

:

Other dogs maybe foraging for blackberries

'cause he loves blackberry season.

859

:

All of these things, yeah, are really

important to Henry and they're important

860

:

for me to enjoy that experience with him.

861

:

I don't want to walk along with, you

know, my nose buried in my phone.

862

:

So if a dog can't do that for whatever

reason, or the person can't, maybe

863

:

the person's got anxiety or mobility

issues, we can bring the outside

864

:

world in so we can create free

865

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

And yeah.

866

:

Sarah Fisher: elements.

867

:

We had somebody who was supporting

that were gonna end up going to a

868

:

beach, but they were really fearful.

869

:

They were through rescue.

870

:

So they started free work at

home with really simple stations.

871

:

Not overwhelming.

872

:

The dog started to add in more

snuffle mats and when the dogs were

873

:

really comfortable and content in

free work, they brought sand from

874

:

the beach in sea water, seaweed.

875

:

They started

876

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love.

877

:

Sarah Fisher: in some of the

878

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Love it.

879

:

Sarah Fisher: and, you

know, visual information.

880

:

The dogs will meet and explore when they

first venture out onto that, that beach.

881

:

we can take as

882

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

883

:

Sarah Fisher: in free work and say,

I need to raise my dog's food bowl.

884

:

need to cover the slippery

floors in my home, because that's

885

:

influencing how my dog moves.

886

:

I need to

887

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

888

:

Sarah Fisher: my dog gets to

explore a new environment moving

889

:

to the left because that's what

I've seen them do in free work.

890

:

I am no longer gonna ask my dog to go

and sniff the back of a person's hand.

891

:

I'm going to let them day together.

892

:

gonna take crunchy treats out on a walk.

893

:

So when my dog to disengage and seem

distracted, gonna recognize I may

894

:

have walked for too long, worried and

they need to decompress with these

895

:

crunchy treats that they've shown

me they enjoy and need in free work.

896

:

We can take literally everything we

learn from our companions in free

897

:

work and bring it into every aspect

of our life, and people are using it,

898

:

Nathan, for supporting their dogs.

899

:

With all sorts of aspects of canine

welfare, education, and care.

900

:

It's, a game changer.

901

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

902

:

Sarah Fisher: simple.

903

:

It's really

904

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I,

905

:

Sarah Fisher: it's great fun.

906

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, it, yeah, it is.

907

:

And, and that leads us on to how

it can help, like nervous and

908

:

adolescents and rescue dogs, Sarah.

909

:

It can be really beneficial, can't it?

910

:

Sarah Fisher: Oh my goodness.

911

:

It saves lives.

912

:

Nathan Adolescent Dogs are my favorite age

913

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

914

:

Sarah Fisher: They are

the dogs that have been my

915

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

916

:

Sarah Fisher: tutors by far,

and they're the dogs as well.

917

:

That made me go,

918

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: wow.

919

:

Sarah Fisher: let's rethink this.

920

:

So Cookie was five months old when she

came to me, so starting adolescence.

921

:

And she was a dog.

922

:

As I said, that made me go, hang on.

923

:

isn't about teaching life skills.

924

:

That's beneficial, actually I need

to learn more from her and give

925

:

her more experiences that give her

control over those experiences.

926

:

So for adolescent dogs, have

an innate need to climb.

927

:

Puppies do.

928

:

So climbing on furniture, important

for adolescent dogs, but maybe not

929

:

so beneficial for every caregiver.

930

:

Maybe they don't want

their dogs on furniture.

931

:

Maybe some family members struggle

with dogs being on furniture, it's

932

:

not the dog trying to dominate.

933

:

It's meeting a really important need to

strengthen the function of the entire

934

:

nervous system, including the vestibular

system, which is linked to balance.

935

:

And if climbing wasn't such an

important part of development,

936

:

there wouldn't be any play parks for

children with climbing apparatus.

937

:

There wouldn't be.

938

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

939

:

Sarah Fisher: Young beings

need the opportunity to climb.

940

:

So in free work, we also create low, safe,

stable platforms for the dogs to climb

941

:

up and over, give them a new experience,

and support that amazing sensory system.

942

:

And for rescue dogs,

943

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

944

:

Sarah Fisher: we can stand back, give

them the chance to explore free from

945

:

people that may cause some concern.

946

:

We had a little rescue dog who she, she's

kind of the poster girl for anxious dog.

947

:

She had a terrible upbringing in a

puppy farm, used as a breeding bitch.

948

:

ended up being,

949

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

950

:

Sarah Fisher: In Bat Sea and

adopted by someone who's now

951

:

one of our ace advanced tutors.

952

:

And she was so fearful and her world had

been so small there was, you know, a lack

953

:

of important experiences during really

critical periods of development that she,

954

:

her, she, she just was really fearful and

couldn't eat in front of her caregiver.

955

:

she came down to Tilly farm just

started with her bed, a pickpocket

956

:

floor forger made by Cape Mallrat.

957

:

Not sure we can advertise,

but they're amazing.

958

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

You can advertise away, it's fine.

959

:

Sarah Fisher: floor forage is amazing

and free work and another texture.

960

:

And, you know, for the first time

started to leave her bed and eat, I

961

:

spent most of my life crying in, in joy

and relief of these amazing animals.

962

:

I had to

963

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That would be me.

964

:

Sarah Fisher: Yeah, right.

965

:

I gave her the pickpocket floor.

966

:

Forger changed her world.

967

:

Her caregiver just started to build

on the free work, adding more and

968

:

more novel things at a very slow pace.

969

:

Then we could engage with her

in free work, even though we

970

:

weren't that familiar to her.

971

:

Her life changed beyond belief,

thanks to her amazing caregiver dean.

972

:

So for that fearful dog who's terrified in

the corner, don't try and coax them out.

973

:

Just put food down and one tip might be

to put food down wearing a glove because

974

:

lots of fearful dogs can't take food.

975

:

That's got your scent on it because

your sense overwhelming for them.

976

:

Or enlist the help of a confident

dog that's already explored free work

977

:

that that fearful shelter dog can

observe and then maybe join provided.

978

:

Of course, their confident dog is

comfortable around other dogs and stuff,

979

:

not always easy in a shelter environment.

980

:

This work started thanks to shelter dogs.

981

:

It changes their lives.

982

:

It saves their lives.

983

:

Can it save every dog?

984

:

No.

985

:

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

986

:

Sarah Fisher: Should

we be saving every dog?

987

:

Unfortunately, no.

988

:

But it's wide, widely used at

Batter Sea and many other shelters,

989

:

and it enhances the life of the

dog while they're in the shelter.

990

:

It helps the behaviour

teams develop protocols.

991

:

On that foundation of what

might help the dog find a home,

992

:

but also stay in the home.

993

:

So some of the, and it, and also

the sta some of the station concepts

994

:

started in the shelter Sea, where we

were seeing dogs being hypervigilant,

995

:

coming out of kennels and scanning

the horizon and pulling on the lead.

996

:

And I said, let's give

them really easy targets.

997

:

And we put food bowls out in serpent

times the dogs could actually

998

:

start looking down, looking for

those easily identifiable objects.

999

:

a matter of, you know, half an hour

doing little breaks in between, they

:

00:57:50,333 --> 00:57:52,163

were no longer scanning the horizon.

:

00:57:52,163 --> 00:57:59,183

They were actually engaging the seeking

system and their whole world started to

:

00:57:59,183 --> 00:58:01,643

open up as their confidence increased.

:

00:58:02,033 --> 00:58:03,413

So, yeah, I mean, it's,

:

00:58:04,241 --> 00:58:04,461

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

:

00:58:05,363 --> 00:58:07,223

Sarah Fisher: it's for

every dog it really is.

:

00:58:08,453 --> 00:58:09,713

And you know, every day

:

00:58:10,561 --> 00:58:11,001

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I love that.

:

00:58:11,423 --> 00:58:15,983

Sarah Fisher: and colleagues when we're

talking and connecting or emailing each

:

00:58:15,983 --> 00:58:23,573

other, including people at Batey we

all say, did we do before free work?

:

00:58:24,383 --> 00:58:24,893

did we do?

:

00:58:25,733 --> 00:58:30,863

Because it's such a great way to build

a relationship, build confidence,

:

00:58:30,863 --> 00:58:33,928

build trust, and deepen connections.

:

00:58:34,461 --> 00:58:34,971

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

:

00:58:36,771 --> 00:58:37,461

I love that.

:

00:58:37,551 --> 00:58:38,661

Thank you so much.

:

00:58:38,661 --> 00:58:39,171

Sarah.

:

00:58:39,681 --> 00:58:42,711

How is Ace being used beyond Pet Guardian?

:

00:58:42,771 --> 00:58:45,331

Oh, we've actually touched on

shouters and things like it's

:

00:58:45,331 --> 00:58:47,191

being used in vet clinics, is it?

:

00:58:47,191 --> 00:58:47,401

And

:

00:58:47,883 --> 00:58:48,303

Sarah Fisher: Well,

:

00:58:48,331 --> 00:58:49,531

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, it's being used in

:

00:58:49,531 --> 00:58:51,241

vets as well, and groomers.

:

00:58:51,663 --> 00:58:56,553

Sarah Fisher: And vets sometimes ask

for their caregiver, the caregiver to

:

00:58:56,553 --> 00:59:02,163

film a free work session because they

can see more gait changes when the

:

00:59:02,281 --> 00:59:03,031

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

:

00:59:03,183 --> 00:59:03,273

Sarah Fisher: in

:

00:59:03,331 --> 00:59:05,311

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

that's a good, good idea.

:

00:59:05,388 --> 00:59:07,338

Sarah Fisher: We have some

vets going through the courses

:

00:59:07,411 --> 00:59:07,471

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

:

00:59:07,548 --> 00:59:09,768

Sarah Fisher: have some vets

teaching on the courses.

:

00:59:10,158 --> 00:59:13,488

And we've just had, in our module

three, we asked people to put this

:

00:59:13,488 --> 00:59:17,208

little recipe for success together

using all the ACE ingredients they've

:

00:59:17,208 --> 00:59:18,498

learned through their modules.

:

00:59:18,498 --> 00:59:19,488

One, two, and three.

:

00:59:20,508 --> 00:59:27,588

one of the group on the last module three

put together ACE Elements, a Cookbook for

:

00:59:27,588 --> 00:59:29,538

Supporting Animals with Veterinary Care.

:

00:59:29,958 --> 00:59:33,798

And one of the group members who

put that recipe together is a vet

:

00:59:33,798 --> 00:59:39,378

and it, I was reading it again

this morning, sobbing, Nathan, the

:

00:59:39,378 --> 00:59:45,018

thinking, the care, the compassion,

how they're building confidence.

:

00:59:46,308 --> 00:59:53,208

Just so beautifully constructed, so rich

all the elements that they've included.

:

00:59:53,598 --> 00:59:56,838

Because confidence in a

veterinary setting doesn't start

:

00:59:56,838 --> 00:59:59,388

at the vets, it starts at home.

:

01:00:00,096 --> 01:00:00,316

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

:

01:00:00,603 --> 01:00:01,413

Sarah Fisher: knowing they've

:

01:00:01,786 --> 01:00:02,006

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm

:

01:00:02,103 --> 01:00:05,733

Sarah Fisher: ability to say,

wait, I'm struggling, or No,

:

01:00:06,001 --> 01:00:06,421

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

:

01:00:07,111 --> 01:00:07,501

Yeah,

:

01:00:07,683 --> 01:00:09,213

Sarah Fisher: it's

applicable to everything.

:

01:00:09,393 --> 01:00:12,303

So groomers use it to build relationships.

:

01:00:13,473 --> 01:00:13,743

Sue

:

01:00:14,041 --> 01:00:15,331

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, yeah.

:

01:00:15,751 --> 01:00:16,201

We've had,

:

01:00:16,318 --> 01:00:16,668

Sarah Fisher: groom.

:

01:00:17,161 --> 01:00:18,511

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: you

literally just took the words out.

:

01:00:18,691 --> 01:00:20,461

You took the words out my mouth.

:

01:00:20,461 --> 01:00:23,191

We've had Sue on, and she said

how she uses it, and she's

:

01:00:23,191 --> 01:00:24,181

one of the ladies that said.

:

01:00:24,556 --> 01:00:26,056

To ask, get, get you on.

:

01:00:27,038 --> 01:00:27,618

Sarah Fisher: Oh, amazing.

:

01:00:27,766 --> 01:00:29,176

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yet she's using it for grieving

:

01:00:29,176 --> 01:00:31,216

all the nervous, nervous dogs and

:

01:00:31,298 --> 01:00:33,813

Sarah Fisher: I, I dunno, a

situation where it wouldn't be

:

01:00:33,813 --> 01:00:36,873

beneficial, but, but of course I

:

01:00:37,036 --> 01:00:37,576

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

:

01:00:38,086 --> 01:00:42,256

Sarah Fisher: Police dogs, dogs

doing free work before and after

:

01:00:42,256 --> 01:00:45,436

Bite work, sent detection dogs.

:

01:00:46,786 --> 01:00:48,706

I mean, it's, it's mind blowing.

:

01:00:48,706 --> 01:00:54,736

It just helps the dogs reset, rebalance,

and sort of reconnect, mind blowing.

:

01:00:57,060 --> 01:00:57,600

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

:

01:00:57,600 --> 01:00:59,850

Is it helping any other animals?

:

01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,095

Not just dogs benefiting from this method?

:

01:01:03,441 --> 01:01:04,041

Sarah Fisher: That's

:

01:01:04,535 --> 01:01:06,095

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Can imagine horses and cats

:

01:01:06,116 --> 01:01:07,216

Sarah Fisher: Horses is amazing.

:

01:01:08,361 --> 01:01:08,991

And another

:

01:01:09,125 --> 01:01:09,635

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

obviously.

:

01:01:09,681 --> 01:01:10,341

Sarah Fisher: for success.

:

01:01:10,341 --> 01:01:10,731

Yeah.

:

01:01:11,101 --> 01:01:11,341

Sorry.

:

01:01:11,401 --> 01:01:16,321

Another person who did the recipe for

success for, for veterinary care lovely

:

01:01:16,321 --> 01:01:19,621

videos up of their horse doing free work.

:

01:01:19,861 --> 01:01:21,961

It's amazing for all animals.

:

01:01:22,201 --> 01:01:24,541

We've had people doing it with rats.

:

01:01:24,691 --> 01:01:26,371

We've had people, you know,

:

01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:27,000

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

:

01:01:27,691 --> 01:01:29,851

Sarah Fisher: of Exactly.

:

01:01:30,061 --> 01:01:32,851

Doing it with all range

of animals in their care.

:

01:01:34,126 --> 01:01:35,401

Sters, I mean, just

:

01:01:35,790 --> 01:01:36,210

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

:

01:01:37,261 --> 01:01:38,911

Sarah Fisher: It's really fun.

:

01:01:39,420 --> 01:01:42,030

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's, it's, yeah.

:

01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:45,240

And it just helps cement that

relationship and build that bond.

:

01:01:45,601 --> 01:01:45,781

Sarah Fisher: Yeah.

:

01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:47,070

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh my God.

:

01:01:47,070 --> 01:01:49,770

We've literally soured

through this episode.

:

01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,560

It has been jam packed.

:

01:01:53,310 --> 01:01:54,420

It's gone really quick.

:

01:01:54,420 --> 01:01:56,400

I could, I could speak to you all day.

:

01:01:56,510 --> 01:02:00,130

And I've listened to you on a

couple of Andrew's webinars before.

:

01:02:01,420 --> 01:02:03,190

We will be hanging out next week.

:

01:02:03,220 --> 01:02:06,910

I'm gonna be, no, I'm gonna be

meeting up with Andrew and, and

:

01:02:06,910 --> 01:02:10,225

stuff on, you know, on the Friday

and I'll be there all weekends.

:

01:02:10,225 --> 01:02:11,590

So we will be hanging out.

:

01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,330

I'm a hugger so I dunno if you are.

:

01:02:15,530 --> 01:02:15,700

But.

:

01:02:16,645 --> 01:02:20,665

Yeah, so for our listeners, I mean,

it is, it is beginning of July

:

01:02:20,665 --> 01:02:23,335

at the moment, but this episode

will go out in a couple of months.

:

01:02:23,335 --> 01:02:26,725

But we are gonna be at the A

BK conference next weekend.

:

01:02:26,725 --> 01:02:30,665

And Ashford Kent, Daniel Shaw

who's been on the yappy hour as

:

01:02:30,665 --> 01:02:34,115

well, so that's why we're talking

about meeting up next weekend.

:

01:02:34,115 --> 01:02:35,435

So it's gonna be lovely.

:

01:02:35,765 --> 01:02:39,415

So Sarah, like I said, I've listened

to you before on some Andrew's webinars

:

01:02:39,415 --> 01:02:40,885

and I get to meet you next week.

:

01:02:40,885 --> 01:02:45,595

I cannot wait, but a quick fire round

as we bring this episode to a close.

:

01:02:45,595 --> 01:02:50,665

So what's one free work item

you cannot live without?

:

01:02:50,665 --> 01:02:51,295

Sarah.

:

01:02:52,036 --> 01:02:56,296

Sarah Fisher: I think mini snuffle

mats because we can put them in piles

:

01:02:56,296 --> 01:03:01,276

for dogs to forage through like leaves

and we can create kind of pyramids so

:

01:03:01,276 --> 01:03:05,596

that dogs have got the station height

that's most accessible for them.

:

01:03:05,746 --> 01:03:10,006

So I think when we can use them as sensory

trays, we can use 'em in so many ways.

:

01:03:10,066 --> 01:03:11,026

That's my go-to.

:

01:03:11,266 --> 01:03:13,186

If I could only have one

item, it would be that

:

01:03:16,395 --> 01:03:16,715

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

:

01:03:17,335 --> 01:03:17,995

What's the

:

01:03:22,156 --> 01:03:25,006

Sarah Fisher: the observer book

of dogs that I had as a child,

:

01:03:25,456 --> 01:03:27,436

it was a little red covered book.

:

01:03:27,736 --> 01:03:32,056

I had one on horses and one on dogs,

and I used to read both of those,

:

01:03:32,296 --> 01:03:38,726

learning about the different breeds and

yeah, my, it was my constant companion.

:

01:03:38,726 --> 01:03:42,416

So I think I have to go right back to

my childhood and say that, and also the

:

01:03:42,416 --> 01:03:44,486

incredible journey, another huge childhood

:

01:03:44,650 --> 01:03:45,040

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that,

:

01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:48,670

no, I love that.

:

01:03:49,030 --> 01:03:52,105

What's one thing you wish

every dog Guardian knew?

:

01:03:52,105 --> 01:03:52,425

Sarah?

:

01:03:54,266 --> 01:03:59,786

Sarah Fisher: How to really start

considering what a painful landscape

:

01:03:59,786 --> 01:04:01,976

looks like for their animal companion.

:

01:04:02,366 --> 01:04:07,256

Because chronic pain is so difficult

to identify in a veterinary

:

01:04:07,256 --> 01:04:08,996

setting, the space is too small.

:

01:04:08,996 --> 01:04:10,256

There's not enough time.

:

01:04:11,006 --> 01:04:13,796

animal's not relaxed, the

caregiver's not relaxed.

:

01:04:13,976 --> 01:04:15,416

It's really difficult for the vet.

:

01:04:15,836 --> 01:04:22,826

So I would love more people to fall

in love with learning ace observations

:

01:04:22,826 --> 01:04:28,106

because with good observations,

we can ensure our companions are

:

01:04:28,106 --> 01:04:29,936

living the best life possible.

:

01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:33,200

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Brilliant.

:

01:04:33,820 --> 01:04:34,110

Okay.

:

01:04:34,495 --> 01:04:40,675

What's one gentle shift you'd encourage

every dog guardian to make today, Sarah?

:

01:04:43,466 --> 01:04:51,776

Sarah Fisher: I think to really stand

back, watch more, and do less, and really

:

01:04:51,776 --> 01:04:58,676

think about providing income for the

dog and not focusing on outcome, move

:

01:04:58,676 --> 01:05:04,166

away from that sort of goal-oriented

way of thinking and enjoy being in

:

01:05:04,166 --> 01:05:06,866

the moment with these amazing animals.

:

01:05:07,256 --> 01:05:11,606

And if we are gonna be a teacher,

what we need to make sure is we

:

01:05:11,606 --> 01:05:17,186

are a really good student, so

be a great student of your dog.

:

01:05:20,165 --> 01:05:20,654

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Love that.

:

01:05:21,105 --> 01:05:24,095

Sarah, how can people

learn more about you?

:

01:05:24,675 --> 01:05:26,415

Ace free work if they

want to get in touch.

:

01:05:28,211 --> 01:05:32,441

Sarah Fisher: We have two

websites, tilly farm.org.uk.

:

01:05:32,441 --> 01:05:39,161

A little bit of information quite

an old website, also we have

:

01:05:39,161 --> 01:05:41,291

animal centered education.com,

:

01:05:41,291 --> 01:05:44,111

which is our teaching

platform that we use.

:

01:05:44,321 --> 01:05:46,181

So there's a little

bit more information on

:

01:05:46,275 --> 01:05:46,565

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

:

01:05:46,991 --> 01:05:49,571

Sarah Fisher: and you can see a

list of the courses that we run.

:

01:05:49,961 --> 01:05:51,671

So we do online courses.

:

01:05:52,001 --> 01:05:55,721

We do online and in-person

courses combined.

:

01:05:56,171 --> 01:06:01,481

Or you can attend an in-person workshop

at Tilly Farm as a standalone event.

:

01:06:02,351 --> 01:06:04,181

And we also on Tilly Farm website

:

01:06:04,185 --> 01:06:04,404

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes,

:

01:06:04,901 --> 01:06:09,611

Sarah Fisher: of our amazing

practitioners, trainers, associate

:

01:06:09,611 --> 01:06:14,621

tutors, advanced tutors, and

associate instructors and instructors.

:

01:06:14,621 --> 01:06:19,571

So also connect with someone

either in your area who or who

:

01:06:19,571 --> 01:06:21,431

also offers courses online.

:

01:06:22,331 --> 01:06:23,471

team are amazing.

:

01:06:23,950 --> 01:06:24,610

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes.

:

01:06:24,641 --> 01:06:25,331

Sarah Fisher: amazing.

:

01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,050

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, I definitely need to get down

:

01:06:29,050 --> 01:06:30,790

to Tilly farm sometime as well.

:

01:06:30,790 --> 01:06:31,930

It's on my list to do.

:

01:06:32,051 --> 01:06:32,916

Sarah Fisher: Oh, please do.

:

01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:37,270

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Sarah

Fisher, thank you so much for joining

:

01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:41,350

me on the Yappy Hour, powered by today.

:

01:06:41,950 --> 01:06:44,350

I've absolutely loved speaking to you.

:

01:06:44,410 --> 01:06:45,910

Thank you so much for joining us.

:

01:06:47,306 --> 01:06:50,576

Sarah Fisher: Thank you so much and I

can't wait to give you a hug in person.

:

01:06:53,410 --> 01:06:54,940

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I'm really looking forward to it,

:

01:06:54,940 --> 01:06:56,465

and I'll, I'll see you very soon.

:

01:06:57,476 --> 01:06:57,986

Sarah Fisher: Thank you.

:

01:07:05,482 --> 01:07:08,542

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Wow, what an incredible conversation.

:

01:07:08,602 --> 01:07:10,357

Oh, I can't go over it.

:

01:07:10,362 --> 01:07:11,842

It was absolutely amazing.

:

01:07:11,842 --> 01:07:14,212

I could have listened

to Sarah all day long.

:

01:07:14,782 --> 01:07:17,692

Um, if there's one thing I hate you

take from this episode, it's that

:

01:07:17,692 --> 01:07:20,212

our dogs aren't projects to fix.

:

01:07:20,512 --> 01:07:23,992

They're individuals with

stories, feelings, and needs.

:

01:07:24,382 --> 01:07:29,122

Sarah reminded us of the

power of observation to pause.

:

01:07:29,517 --> 01:07:35,187

To notice the small shifts in movement

or behaviour that tell a much deeper

:

01:07:35,187 --> 01:07:40,797

story, whether you live with a bouncy

puppy, a nervous rescue, or a senior

:

01:07:40,797 --> 01:07:47,757

soul ace free work gives you the tools to

meet your dog where they are and maybe.

:

01:07:48,012 --> 01:07:52,992

Just maybe it gives us space

to grow alongside them too.

:

01:07:53,802 --> 01:08:02,292

You can learn more about Sarah's

incredible work@www.tillyfarm.org.uk,

:

01:08:02,832 --> 01:08:06,792

and we will put all of the

links in the show notes and if

:

01:08:06,792 --> 01:08:11,087

today's episode resonated with

you, please consider sharing it.

:

01:08:11,487 --> 01:08:17,487

Leaving us a review and help us spread the

message that there's more to, more than

:

01:08:17,487 --> 01:08:20,997

one way to walk beside, beside our dogs.

:

01:08:21,657 --> 01:08:26,577

Until next time, take care

and keep those towels wagon.

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