Essential reading to help you learn more about your brain and the brains of those around you, do less, and make decisions from a place of clarity.
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FrogFest Virtual – The Boundary Hunters
Tuesday 25th November
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Welcome to a summer Quick dip with a difference.
Speaker:I'm joined by Dr. Sarah Coope.
Speaker:Sarah,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Rachel.
Speaker:Yes, so I'm working with you now as head of training at Wild Monday.
Speaker:I'm a former GP and an executive coach with a real interesting conflict
Speaker:resolution and burnout prevention as well.
Speaker:Great to have you with me.
Speaker:The reason we got Sarah with us on this quick dip is I thought, what do
Speaker:people wanna know over the summer?
Speaker:And I don't know about you, but when I'm going away on holiday, I just
Speaker:need to know what I'm gonna read.
Speaker:I'm quite obsessed with books and whether this is reading or whether this
Speaker:is audio books, I know a lot of people are really finding that audio books are
Speaker:just really brilliant for them right now, but I love just getting some new
Speaker:ideas and, and stuff to think about.
Speaker:So we thought we would give a rundown of our top books to read over the summer.
Speaker:This is a You Are Not a Frog quick dip, a tiny taster of the kinds of things we
Speaker:talk about on our full podcast episodes.
Speaker:I've chosen today's topic to give you a helpful boost in the time it
Speaker:takes to have a cup of tea so you can return to whatever else you're
Speaker:up to feeling energized and inspired.
Speaker:For more tools, tips, and insights to help you thrive at work, don't
Speaker:forget to subscribe to You Are Not a Frog wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker:I was at a training session.
Speaker:I did a whole Shapes Toolkit for consultants last week, and at the end
Speaker:somebody came up to me and she, he said, Rachel, if you're gonna recommend
Speaker:just one book, what would it be?
Speaker:So I've got that recommendation with me.
Speaker:We've got another few.
Speaker:Um, in fact, as I'm saying that, I'm thinking of other books I wanna talk
Speaker:about that I haven't even got with me.
Speaker:But anyway, I've I've got my, I've got my pile.
Speaker:Um, Sarah, I know you read a lot.
Speaker:What sort of books do you like to read when you go away and why?
Speaker:Yeah, I always pack far too many books, but, and then find other
Speaker:books on my Kindle probably while I'm, while I'm away as well.
Speaker:But I tend to take at least two sort of just easy to read self-development books,
Speaker:often ones I've read before that I just think I wanna go through that again.
Speaker:I do like a bit of fiction as well, some crime detective novels, but we're
Speaker:not gonna talk about those today.
Speaker:What about you?
Speaker:What sort of things do you like to pack?
Speaker:Rubbish crime.
Speaker:Rubbish crime fiction.
Speaker:I'm a big fan of the, uh, St. Mary's um, Chronicles, which I found about in the
Speaker:medics, uh, book group actually, which could, but I'm not gonna talk about them.
Speaker:Let's talk about these sort of self-development books because you know,
Speaker:my other half course the self-help books, they're not, they are self-development
Speaker:books and I can genuinely say they've changed my life and this is where I got
Speaker:into all this stuff around, you know, personal efficacy, self-awareness,
Speaker:resilience, all, all that sort of thing.
Speaker:And books are amazing.
Speaker:Can I just say there's so much in a book, like you might spend a thousand
Speaker:pounds on someone's course and then you find the book and they've pretty
Speaker:much written it all in the book.
Speaker:It does take a little bit more effort though, I guess, and that's why maybe some
Speaker:people, people really struggle with it.
Speaker:A quick tip for people is that all the books we talk, we talk about today, if
Speaker:you are not a big fan of reading and you don't get one with audio books either,
Speaker:you can often find podcasts where the authors have gone on the podcast and
Speaker:pretty much summarize the entire book.
Speaker:So that's the way I digest a lot of these things is listen to some of
Speaker:the podcasts, hear some new authors think, oh, that's an interesting
Speaker:book, i'll, I'll go and get that.
Speaker:So I'll listen to them first on the podcast and then I'll, then
Speaker:I'll go and, and buy the book.
Speaker:It seems like a bit more of a, possible way of doing it.
Speaker:You're sort of screening it, pre-screening it beforehand.
Speaker:But, um, yeah.
Speaker:Sarah, what would be, if, if someone came to you and said, what one book
Speaker:would be helpful for me to read over the summer, what would you be saying?
Speaker:So I've got a couple of books, I'll show you one of them.
Speaker:So one is Rediscovered And that's by Catherine Asta that
Speaker:came out earlier this year.
Speaker:So this book is written for, um, late discovered or late diagnosed
Speaker:women who are autistic or ADHD, but particularly autistic women
Speaker:and it says, and their allies.
Speaker:So I found it really interesting as a doctor and as a late discovered, um,
Speaker:autistic person myself at the age of 49 last year, uh, to read that and
Speaker:understand it's a bit like someone, well she, she, the Catherine Asta, the author
Speaker:is, um, also late discovered autistic.
Speaker:And, and so very much as I've read through that, it's really struck me, just,
Speaker:um, my experience understanding that, understanding as a doctor as well as a
Speaker:former GP what I didn't know I didn't know about some of the presentations
Speaker:of autism, particularly in women.
Speaker:So I think a lot of medics would find that really insightful.
Speaker:She talks a lot about the research that's been done there, the research
Speaker:that's needed to be done, and also give some really positive, um, advice and
Speaker:strategies for people who either are autistic or train support, supervise,
Speaker:have members of their family, friends who also are, and just ways of, of
Speaker:really understanding the world for them, which, um, yeah, for, for myself was,
Speaker:has been a big, a big learning curve over the last sort of six, nine months.
Speaker:And what were the aha moments that you thought, God, I wish I'd known that 10
Speaker:years ago when I was working as a GP?
Speaker:I think as a, from a GP perspective, it was understanding that some of
Speaker:the physical presentations such as hypermobility, so like EllisDon
Speaker:syndrome, migraine, um, chronic, chronic pelvic pain, recurrent UTIs,
Speaker:uh, polycystic ovarian syndrome.
Speaker:Some of those conditions are much more common in neurodivergent individuals.
Speaker:And I never knew that.
Speaker:And looking at, at your reaction, I'm guessing
Speaker:I didn't know that.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:No, and I think it's fairly recent research, um, that's shown that,
Speaker:but I, it just makes so much sense, um, that it's chronic inflammation,
Speaker:chronic stress that is often underlying a lot of those conditions.
Speaker:And so, so for, for people, especially women who probably have that additional
Speaker:stress of being trained and conditioned to mask so much more from an early
Speaker:stage will often present in those ways also chronic fatigue, other things like
Speaker:that that we've often, as doctors, not always known, and I'm sure there's so
Speaker:much work still to be done, isn't it?
Speaker:But not, you know, not always known what underlying causes are.
Speaker:And I'm not saying that for every person with those, those conditions,
Speaker:then it would be neurodivergence as the underlying cause.
Speaker:I think it's about thinking about that.
Speaker:Um, I remember when I taught medical students, I'd often say, you know,
Speaker:what else could it be when you think about the differential diagnosis?
Speaker:So that's just asking that question in order to consider it.
Speaker:That's interesting because I was thinking, gosh, is that genetically linked?
Speaker:But no, that makes sense.
Speaker:That actually it's the stress that comes with, um, that maybe ne being
Speaker:neuro divergent and this masking that people have to do to just like survive
Speaker:in the, the real world, which causes inflammation in the, the cortisol.
Speaker:I mean, there is that, it's looking like there's a genetic component
Speaker:or has looked like that for quite a long time, I think with, with a lot
Speaker:of neurodivergent conditions and of course the complexity with trauma
Speaker:in early life and, and those things.
Speaker:But, so that was an aha moment, I think for me as a medic.
Speaker:And then for me as a, as a late discovered autistic woman who had no idea until
Speaker:a, maybe a year ago, started to wonder.
Speaker:And then it's just made so much sense, understanding about burnout on repeat,
Speaker:understanding about, um, just masking and the cost that, that, that is for, for
Speaker:people like myself, just how we're able to mask, and it's not about pretending, it's
Speaker:just what we are required to do, often to, to fit in and, and the difference
Speaker:that that can make in terms of just that sensory overload and exhaustion.
Speaker:So I think that's been very validating and then helping, helping me understand
Speaker:just what autism means in that way.
Speaker:And also just.
Speaker:I think we have to deal with people's reactions.
Speaker:I'm only recently sharing my diagnosis 'cause it takes a
Speaker:little bit of processing myself.
Speaker:And of course, you know, she talks in the book a lot about people's
Speaker:reactions to herself as a psychologist, sharing her diagnosis and how
Speaker:they'll be the typical response.
Speaker:Well you don't look autistic or, well you can't be autistic 'cause
Speaker:you make eye contact or you can't be autistic 'cause you empathize.
Speaker:And just understanding actually that's, you know, that's not true.
Speaker:there's such a diverse, obviously diverse presentation in so many
Speaker:people and often a lot of autistic people have those as their strengths.
Speaker:So that's the book for you.
Speaker:If you maybe think you might be autistic or have ADHD yourself, just
Speaker:to understand yourself a bit more, but also you think all healthcare
Speaker:professionals should probably read it just so that they can spot some
Speaker:of these signs in their patients.
Speaker:I think so.
Speaker:And particularly in women because.
Speaker:Again, the research is showing.
Speaker:It is, it does present differently, often.
Speaker:I'm generalizing, but different often in women, especially women
Speaker:of, of my generation, um, just because of some of the conditioning.
Speaker:So I think it's very interesting to read.
Speaker:Yeah, and, and worth just checking out for, for discussion.
Speaker:I think it'd be a great discussion for book to discuss at, say a peer study
Speaker:group or something like that, just to say, oh, what did, what have you learned?
Speaker:What did you know, not know?
Speaker:And, uh, what will you do differently?
Speaker:I love that idea.
Speaker:You know, so if, if people are lacking a bit of connection once
Speaker:there's bit of CPD to get together in a, a peer book group, um, let us,
Speaker:let us know if you're gonna do that.
Speaker:Um, so this book is rediscovered by Claire
Speaker:Catherine.
Speaker:Catherine Asta, ASTA.
Speaker:So Rediscovered by Catherine Asta.
Speaker:She has a podcast, um, as well.
Speaker:Um, and I think it's the same name or the Late Discovered Circle, I think.
Speaker:Um, but yeah, this, this book is, worth a read.
Speaker:and we, um.
Speaker:Hopefully gonna get her on our, our podcast if, if we can.
Speaker:And just to say that we are going to be thinking about a, a community for
Speaker:doctors with, um, neurodivergence or, or feel that they might have a
Speaker:neurodivergent diagnosis even if they haven't been officially diagnosed.
Speaker:Um, keep your eyes peel for stuff around that later on in the year.
Speaker:And, and if that's you, just get in touch with us and let us know.
Speaker:So what sort of things you do you struggle with and what would you like
Speaker:to hear about on the podcast as well?
Speaker:Thanks, Sarah, that that book sounds really important.
Speaker:The book I'm gonna recommend for the essential thing to read
Speaker:over the summer is Essentialism.
Speaker:Now I can't, uh, I can't remember how many times I have
Speaker:recommended this book to people.
Speaker:Honestly, I should have shares in this book.
Speaker:I do not have shares in this book.
Speaker:But Greg McKeown, if you are listening, please come on the podcast.
Speaker:Obviously he's listening to You Are Not a Frog.
Speaker:Um, this book.
Speaker:Was recommended to me by a coach I was speaking to maybe eight or nine years ago.
Speaker:I'm not quite sure when it actually came out.
Speaker:Um, oh, 20, 2014.
Speaker:Yeah, so it's over 10 years old.
Speaker:And it, it can be life changing for people.
Speaker:The strap line is the disciplined pursuit of less.
Speaker:I like to say, well, it's really about do fewer things, but better.
Speaker:And it's basically, it's a basically bit of a manual for life.
Speaker:Um, it talks about what problem do I want.
Speaker:There's always gonna be a trade off.
Speaker:Strategy is about making choices, trade offs.
Speaker:It's about deliberately choosing to be different.
Speaker:Like you need a strategy for your life.
Speaker:You cannot keep doing everything.
Speaker:This was one of the first books that introduced me to the real power of choice,
Speaker:the fact we, we can choose, but often we don't like the choices that we've got,
Speaker:they feel too difficult and it really talks about how to do less, uncommitting
Speaker:to stuff, uh, eliminating stuff, sleeping, protecting your asset, it,
Speaker:it's a bit, bit of a sort of modern day, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
Speaker:But it, I think the one thing it just instills in me is that we can do anything.
Speaker:Like, doctors, healthcare professionals are really, really
Speaker:competent, have got a lot of skills, but we cannot do everything.
Speaker:We cannot do everything.
Speaker:And as Oliver Burkeman in another book 4,000 Weeks, that's another another
Speaker:huge recommendation as he says, you know, we only have about 4,000
Speaker:weeks on this planet, give or take.
Speaker:We are not gonna get to do 99.99999% of everything that
Speaker:there is to do on this planet.
Speaker:We are gonna have to choose what we spend our one world and precious life doing.
Speaker:Essentialism really helps with that.
Speaker:It really helps talk about the impact of just focusing on a few things.
Speaker:And I remember one of the stories in Essentialism that really struck
Speaker:me was talking about a, a guy who'd just sold his business.
Speaker:Um, and he wanted to prove that he was still helpful to the
Speaker:company that had bought it 'cause he was still in the business.
Speaker:And so he made sure he went to every single meeting, he made sure he was
Speaker:still doing lots and lots of things, he was very, very vis visible.
Speaker:And he went for some coaching.
Speaker:'cause he just found himself not being very effective at all.
Speaker:And he thought about, well, how can I improve my visibility?
Speaker:How can I, how can I have a better impact in this, this new business that's
Speaker:been taken over by this new company?
Speaker:And the coach spoke to him and said, your problem is you are just spread so thin,
Speaker:you are not having an impact on anything.
Speaker:And said to this guy, what you need to do is only go to meetings where
Speaker:you are a hundred percent needed.
Speaker:You are only to do those things that nobody else can do.
Speaker:Try it for a month or so.
Speaker:So this guy tried it and his impact shot through the roof.
Speaker:His enjoyment of work increased.
Speaker:You know, people were appreciating him again for, for what he was doing.
Speaker:Now, I know it's hard to translate this over into medicine.
Speaker:It really, really is, particularly when we have the day job that we've got to do.
Speaker:We've got all that patient care, that frontline stuff, and then
Speaker:there's a lot the leadership stuff that often happens outside of work.
Speaker:but I do observe people getting stuck in the urgency trap and
Speaker:what we call the urgency trap.
Speaker:And quick side note, we, we've got some urgency trap training coming
Speaker:up soon, so if you want to join, we'll put the link in the show notes.
Speaker:But that's where you're firefighting everything for everybody else.
Speaker:And so you're not ever getting to your own stuff and it makes you really ineffective
Speaker:and really decreases your, your impact.
Speaker:And I see when doctors get stuck in the agency trap, they end up
Speaker:doing stuff and they say, oh, I'm so busy and now I'm coaching.
Speaker:Uh, if I'm coaching people or talking to participants in training, they say,
Speaker:yeah, well, I've gotta do this, that and the other, and I'm thinking about
Speaker:it, I'm going, that is not important.
Speaker:It it objectively anybody would say to you, you really don't need to do that.
Speaker:That is not mission critical.
Speaker:That's not gonna move the needle for your patients or for your depart or anything.
Speaker:Yet they're still feeling that they ought to do it.
Speaker:And you lose the ability.
Speaker:To distinguish what actually is important and what's not.
Speaker:And I guess amygdala is all tied up in that, you know, making you feel guilty
Speaker:if you're not gonna do everything that everybody wants you to do all the time.
Speaker:But Essentialism really helps just cut through all the, the chat, all the
Speaker:external stuff and think what is the really important stuff that only I can do?
Speaker:And let me focus on that and gives you some suggestions for
Speaker:how to focus on that as well.
Speaker:So that Essentialism by Greg, Greg McKeown has had a massive impact on me.
Speaker:Strap line, the discipline pursuit of less.
Speaker:And the power of choice, I think that really stood out from
Speaker:what you've just said, and it's something I've had to apply.
Speaker:And it sounds like you, you've really taken over from that.
Speaker:Recognizing we always have a choice.
Speaker:We just don't always like the choice we have.
Speaker:And sometimes we forget that we have a choice when it comes down to, oh,
Speaker:I have to do that, I should do that.
Speaker:And so we often need to step back and go, actually, what would happen if I didn't?
Speaker:How's that working out for me when I try to do all that, like in the urgency trap?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So who, who might wanna take that in their suitcase on a holiday do you think?
Speaker:I think anybody who's overwhelmed, anyone who's just thinking, I am on a
Speaker:hamster wheel, I'm running as fast as I can just to stay still, and when I
Speaker:get home I'm exhausted and just go to work and do it all again the next day,
Speaker:and thinking I'm not even doing a good job in the things that I'm, I'm doing.
Speaker:So, absolutely, if, if, if that's you just start with this book, it's
Speaker:a bit of a mindset shift because we need the mindset shift before we
Speaker:actually can put stuff into action.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's interesting.
Speaker:Sarah was with some consultants the other day and, um, we were talking about choice
Speaker:and they were really struggling with it because what it turned out was they didn't
Speaker:like the choices that they, that they had.
Speaker:They wished they had a choice to be working in a, a trust that was wonderful.
Speaker:That was, you know, really helping them, that that was giving them the
Speaker:choice about how they spent their time.
Speaker:But, it wasn't like that they were really, really struggling with the system, but
Speaker:there still is choice, you know, even if the only choice you have is whether
Speaker:you stay or go, there is always choice.
Speaker:Nobody has a gun to your head saying you, you have to.
Speaker:What people don't like is the consequences of their choices.
Speaker:You know, the consequences of leaving.
Speaker:What that means with their family, their income or the consequences
Speaker:of standing up and saying, no, we can't do this, but we'll do this.
Speaker:Or the consequences of drawing a line in this hand saying, I'm going home now
Speaker:and those patients won't be seen, or, you know, they're gonna have to wait
Speaker:or that, 'cause what if someone thinks badly of me, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:But it's always the consequences.
Speaker:I talk about this a lot.
Speaker:It's the consequences of the choices that we, we don't like.
Speaker:But as Greg McKeown says, again, bring it back to Essentialism,
Speaker:you can't do everything.
Speaker:You can do anything, but you can't do everything.
Speaker:And I think that's just the message I'll probably have on my gravestone.
Speaker:But it's so true,
Speaker:She could do anything.
Speaker:She could do everything.
Speaker:It is so true.
Speaker:I came back to this analogy when I was training last week.
Speaker:I was talking about the two suitcase sizes, you know, the
Speaker:hand luggage and the hold luggage.
Speaker:And I was saying, and again, if you had a, a whole big suitcase,
Speaker:you know, the 22 kilogram suitcase.
Speaker:And I said, no, sorry, you can't take that, you can only take the 10
Speaker:kilogram suitcase, you would, you'd accept that you couldn't fit the 22
Speaker:kilograms into that 10 kilogram suitcase.
Speaker:So I was saying to them in the room, you know, so what would
Speaker:you, how would you decide?
Speaker:And of course they said, well, we take what we really needed.
Speaker:What was the priority?
Speaker:What's just the, you know, for us?
Speaker:And it, it's the same principle, isn't it?
Speaker:If you can't take everything on a, on holiday and you could only take a smaller
Speaker:suitcase, what will you choose to take?
Speaker:And it, and it's the same analogy at work, isn't it?
Speaker:You can't do everything, so therefore you have to leave some, some things out.
Speaker:And when it comes down to prioritizing it, sometimes it's hard, isn't it to say,
Speaker:even when it's the things I'd like to do.
Speaker:I still need to say, no, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that because I
Speaker:want, I am choosing to do this.
Speaker:I love that analogy of the suitcase.
Speaker:It strikes me that we don't see time as finite.
Speaker:We just think time can stretch.
Speaker:It can't stretch.
Speaker:We need to see, we need to see time as, as a possession.
Speaker:And actually, we know that time is, is, is, is a type of wealth,
Speaker:you know, freedom of time.
Speaker:Having the time to do something that is wealth.
Speaker:So actually seeing it as finite possessions of energy that
Speaker:you have or space to do stuff, you, you absolutely can't.
Speaker:We just think we can fit 10 tasks into half an hour.
Speaker:We kn when we know we can't, but like, oh no, well I'll just have to
Speaker:do it and then I'll borrow the rest of that from my sleep or whatever.
Speaker:But actually when you, when you go, when you hit 24 hours,
Speaker:you can't do anything else.
Speaker:So I quite like that suitcase analogy.
Speaker:That's, that's really helpful.
Speaker:The, the, the problem comes when it's like, well, I would like to
Speaker:take this thing, but someone else is telling me I should take that thing.
Speaker:Who wins out?
Speaker:Is it me or is it the other person?
Speaker:But yeah, I think time as a currency is really helpful.
Speaker:And that's something where the suitcase analogy works well.
Speaker:'cause it's like a space, isn't it, that you, you can fill and,
Speaker:um, energy the same and attention.
Speaker:So T, E, A, time, energy, attention, what are you going to
Speaker:fit into the resource you have?
Speaker:So thinking about time, my next book is this one, Time to Think.
Speaker:So I recommend this and I think we do, we both do, don't we, on,
Speaker:on a lot of courses, especially when we talk about coaching.
Speaker:So Time to Think by Nancy Klein.
Speaker:It might be a book that you have read.
Speaker:I read it first probably 15, maybe plus years ago, um,
Speaker:when I did a coaching diploma.
Speaker:Um, it's.
Speaker:So, so empowering around recognizing the quality of listening.
Speaker:So as medics, we're often trained, aren't we?
Speaker:How to actively listen, how to listen deeply, not just to what people are
Speaker:saying, but what else is behind it.
Speaker:And I think the quote that really stays with me is that the quality
Speaker:of my listening directly impacts the quality of your thinking.
Speaker:So if I listen well then that will help you to think well,
Speaker:I remember reading Time to Think and it, it did absolutely change my mind.
Speaker:'Cause she talks about it not just in a, a one-to-one conversation.
Speaker:And she also talks about thinking time in meetings where you know that if you are
Speaker:given a chance just to talk and no one's gonna interrupt you, it's so much easier.
Speaker:People actually talk less, they get much less anxious and you know, so
Speaker:it's just creating these thinking environments where people can
Speaker:actually express what they think.
Speaker:Now, I'm an extrovert, so I need to talk to know what I'm thinking.
Speaker:Is that the case for you?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:So I'm introverted, which means I will process my thoughts internally and then
Speaker:say them when I have got them gathered.
Speaker:So how's this a thinking time thing work for you then?
Speaker:So in a meeting at times, sometimes I have in say, a partnership meeting, sometimes
Speaker:I wouldn't have contributed if I thought, well, someone else has covered that point.
Speaker:However, by not contributing, I then haven't stated it out loud,
Speaker:I guess, where I sit with things.
Speaker:So I learned to say my thoughts and my opinions, even if
Speaker:someone else had covered it.
Speaker:I think it means I don't always need, I mean, I do need time sometimes to talk out
Speaker:loud, and I can get a lot of clarity by that, but it does mean sometimes I need
Speaker:almost encouragement or permission to, and that's where the thinking environment
Speaker:that Nancy Klein talks about is so great for those teams where you have
Speaker:a mixture of people who will just talk without, you know, without prompting,
Speaker:and those who will need to be encouraged.
Speaker:And it, it really indicates to everybody that there'll be time for
Speaker:everyone to, to think and to speak.
Speaker:And so part of it is chairing skills, I think.
Speaker:Um, also part of it is encouraging those who perhaps wouldn't necessarily have
Speaker:spoken out loud to have said something.
Speaker:And also those who, who are external processes to also hear other
Speaker:people's, um, processing and thinking.
Speaker:So yeah, that's how I think it can work for all, for all preferences.
Speaker:So it's a really good book, Time to Think.
Speaker:I would recommend it for anyone who, just wants to have a thinking partnership,
Speaker:you know, talk to somebody and allow the other person to think, and then
Speaker:vice versa, they will allow you to think and it, it really does transform how
Speaker:you approach conversations, doesn't it?
Speaker:It really does.
Speaker:And I think even if you think you're good at listening, not you
Speaker:personally, even if, if one thinks
Speaker:I'm not that good at listening, as I've just proven by interrupting you.
Speaker:Well, this, you know, there's always more to learn, isn't there?
Speaker:And I'm certainly learning a lot.
Speaker:It's worth, I think one of the other things that are really worth gaining
Speaker:from the book is her incisive questions.
Speaker:I use this so much.
Speaker:I was using it with my adult son the other week, um, and her incisive questions
Speaker:where someone is stuck in their thinking and it helps 'em to get past that.
Speaker:So it's a coaching question.
Speaker:I don't wanna spoil it by giving it away, but it helps the person to think past
Speaker:where they're stuck and then come back to, so it opens up choice and freedom again.
Speaker:Sarah, I am gonna ask you what the incisive question is for those
Speaker:people that don't manage to read it.
Speaker:What is, what is this very helpful incisive question.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So if, if somebody is stuck, I'm trying to think of an example.
Speaker:If someone is, is stuck with, um, something thinking, you know, I
Speaker:can't, possibly, I can't possibly do that, or I can't possibly say
Speaker:no, um, maybe that's a good example.
Speaker:So, you know, I can't possibly say no to my boss about that or, or my team
Speaker:because of what they'll think, the incisive question is, takes you if you
Speaker:could, and if you knew that that was gonna be okay, so it almost takes you
Speaker:to a place of imagining what's possible.
Speaker:And for that to be all right, then what would you do?
Speaker:I've used it at times where I've had some anxiety about the future, for
Speaker:example, and I've just thought, okay, if I knew, and this isn't sort of,
Speaker:um, fantasy, but if I knew that, This was gonna be okay almost that, that
Speaker:then what would I use this time for?
Speaker:So it frees you pass them as often, often those anxious thoughts or other
Speaker:limiting beliefs, and that's the thing.
Speaker:So it's where someone's got a limiting belief about what they can
Speaker:do, what's possible or what's gonna be possible in, in the, in, in life.
Speaker:It just helps you to think, okay, what would you then do now?
Speaker:So it comes back to now, and then gives you that sort of sense
Speaker:of, okay, so what would I do?
Speaker:And, and that's where you inner wisdom can really
Speaker:Love it.
Speaker:I think we're gonna use that today.
Speaker:Brilliant.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:So, so that is Time to Think by Nancy Klein and, and an old classic.
Speaker:I really recommend that one.
Speaker:Finally the book I'd like to recommend Deeper Mindfulness by
Speaker:Mark Williams and Danny Penman.
Speaker:Now, so this was, uh, recommended to me by my friend and colleague John C
Speaker:Parkin, who wrote the F it book, so, um, that's something we're gonna be talking
Speaker:about later on in our, um, hot topics podcast with our um, FrogXtra membership.
Speaker:But John said to me, you've got to read this book.
Speaker:Now, a lot of you will already know Finding Peace in a Frantic World.
Speaker:So this is a, an amazing book that that first book is basically the eight week
Speaker:mindfulness based stress reduction course.
Speaker:And I think there's even some evidence from NICE that it is an evidence
Speaker:based treatment for depression.
Speaker:It's really fantastic, And they, you can teach that you, you can go and attend
Speaker:a Find New piece In a Frantic World mindfulness based stress reduction course.
Speaker:You can buy the book.
Speaker:There's all sorts of meditations that go with it, and I would
Speaker:really, really recommend that.
Speaker:This is the next step, and in fact, this is another eight week course.
Speaker:And they say, you don't even need to have done the first
Speaker:course to, to be doing this.
Speaker:And it builds on the new research that's come out about the way we
Speaker:think and our brains and mindfulness.
Speaker:And it, it, it's really, really helpful.
Speaker:I mean, what it talks about is the fact that, I mean, I know, sorry,
Speaker:we talk about what's the story in your head all the time, don't we?
Speaker:Like, well, what are you thinking?
Speaker:What story have you made up about that?
Speaker:What are you assuming?
Speaker:This book just says that everything is a story in our head.
Speaker:I am looking at you through a camera right now.
Speaker:We're on a recording platform called Riverside, but my actual brain
Speaker:is only taking in a tiny bit of the information that I'm seeing.
Speaker:What the rest of what I'm seeing is, is my brain just filling in the blanks
Speaker:from its memory, from what it knows.
Speaker:So I know that I've got a couple of lights here, light me up.
Speaker:I've got a computer screen here, I've got window there.
Speaker:I'm not actually seeing that.
Speaker:I'm just, you know, just keeping that there from what I've seen before
Speaker:and I generally only just work out bits that have changed or whatever.
Speaker:So everything we do in life, what we're smelling, what we're seeing,
Speaker:what we're experiencing is, is our brain generally filling in the gaps.
Speaker:And we're not taking, we're not really relying on that much actual
Speaker:information that's coming in through our, through our eyes.
Speaker:And so, what he they're talking about is we, we, we do a lot of stuff on autopilot.
Speaker:A lot of our thoughts are on autopilot, are assumptions, and even
Speaker:just what we're thinking, feeling, smelling, all that sort of thing.
Speaker:And how do we get off the autopilot and actually engage in the present
Speaker:moment with the real world?
Speaker:And so again, it takes you through eight weeks of different
Speaker:meditations to practice this.
Speaker:And the difference between this and the first course is they are now
Speaker:talking about this thing called vedana, which is your sort of emotional tone.
Speaker:' Cause I don't know about you, but sometimes I think to myself,
Speaker:oh, I'm feeling a bit rubbish.
Speaker:I'm feeling a bit, oh, there must be something wrong.
Speaker:Something's wrong, right?
Speaker:What is it?
Speaker:Oh, maybe it's that one of my children has upset me this morning,
Speaker:or something's not going right away.
Speaker:So then you know your emotional tone's a bit off.
Speaker:So then you look around for things that are gonna confirm why it's off,
Speaker:and then you, and then it might ruin the rest of the day, and then your
Speaker:thoughts will match up with that.
Speaker:But actually what this is doing is using the, um, some mindfulness techniques
Speaker:to, to think about to yourself.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:What is the emotional tone, what's going on there?
Speaker:And not then necessarily have to do anything about it.
Speaker:Sort of just identify.
Speaker:Now I'm not very far into the book, but I think there are some very
Speaker:helpful things that go further on that, you know, John told me about
Speaker:that a lot of the time you, you clock it and you go, no action necessary.
Speaker:You know, I don't actually need to do anything about that and I think
Speaker:that's gonna be very helpful for me.
Speaker:So I am, I'm working through, you know, the book and the meditations
Speaker:and, you know, you do five minutes a day meditation, 'cause we know that
Speaker:mindfulness is about practicing, but there's some really useful,
Speaker:really helpful neuroscience.
Speaker:They talk about the fact that we just exhaust ourselves.
Speaker:We've just got all this stuff going on and half the time we just don't need to.
Speaker:And I think this is going to be a, a really good thing
Speaker:for me to do over the summer.
Speaker:So I just encourage other people to get the book.
Speaker:There's the, you can then get the free audio meditations that go with it.
Speaker:They give you the link in the book to get that.
Speaker:And I think it's gonna be really helpful.
Speaker:I really like the concept of emotional tone, and a lot of that
Speaker:sounds, it's paying attention to our thoughts, isn't it?
Speaker:Paying attention to them, but not.
Speaker:Necessarily engaging them.
Speaker:And recognizing that, yeah, we've, we, our brains have received so
Speaker:much information, but we filter.
Speaker:That's what, that's what we do.
Speaker:And we filter based on past experience, don't we?
Speaker:What else is going on?
Speaker:And recognizing how our, our emotional tone can set the filter.
Speaker:And we have some, we don't have control over all of the filter, but we probably
Speaker:have some control over whether we engage with those thoughts or not.
Speaker:I think, I think what, what really struck me from this book was that
Speaker:sometimes, you know, I'm feeling a bit pissed off and I'll always blame actual
Speaker:stuff that's happening, but it might just be something that's triggered an
Speaker:unconscious memory of something that happened in the past or whatever.
Speaker:And actually I just can, I don't need to do anything.
Speaker:I can just, I can just leave it.
Speaker:I don't need to change and act on everything, which for me is quite
Speaker:difficult 'cause I'm someone who likes to just like get over the
Speaker:negative emotions, just move into the future and everything has to be fine.
Speaker:There's that recognition, isn't it?
Speaker:I've, I've been thinking a lot about, yeah, about heartfulness as well,
Speaker:and maybe we'll talk about that one time, but just recognizing how it,
Speaker:the thoughts affect how we feel.
Speaker:And I think some of that deeper mindfulness is very
Speaker:much around that, isn't it?
Speaker:How it affects your, your actual state, your emotional state.
Speaker:There's lots to go into.
Speaker:One thing that that get you practicing is using bits of your body to just
Speaker:get you in the present moment.
Speaker:And I know we've talked about that with the, there's some stuff around PQ
Speaker:intelligence and stuff, but actually just focusing your hands or your feet.
Speaker:So actually think actually this, that just get into the present moment and
Speaker:ignore that, that brain stuff that I'm just making up and return to now.
Speaker:And I just think that can be the key to living a much calmer life.
Speaker:I, I know in a lot of courses we teach ourselves to.
Speaker:Recognize the stories that we're telling ourselves and then work
Speaker:out what's true, what's actually true and stop the assumptions.
Speaker:And I think that's really important and can very much help, but sometimes we
Speaker:just need to notice those thoughts and let them go and feel them in your body.
Speaker:And sometimes there is no action necessary.
Speaker:We don't actually need to do anything about it.
Speaker:No, we often need to get out of our heads and much more into our bodies,
Speaker:and that groundedness that's been so helpful for me in many ways, just
Speaker:grounding in those moments, not ruminating
Speaker:absolutely.
Speaker:So there's four book recommendation recommendations
Speaker:for people over the summer.
Speaker:We've got Deeper Mindfulness, Essentialism and Sarah, You've
Speaker:Time to Think, and Rediscovered.
Speaker:So if you are listening to this on the normal You Are Not a Frog podcast
Speaker:feed, go well over the summer.
Speaker:We've got some great summer episodes, some around wellbeing and some extra stuff.
Speaker:And um, yeah, I'll see you for more quick dips again in the autumn.
Speaker:If you are part of our FrogXtra membership, then hop over to
Speaker:your FrogXtra, um, special bonus podcast for July.
Speaker:and, uh, Sarah and I will be exploring a couple more books in there that, um, I, I
Speaker:really think everybody should be reading.
Speaker:And that is the F it books with John Parkin and the Boundaries book, the Book
Speaker:of Boundaries and diving a bit deeper into those, because of some of the things
Speaker:that we've been sort of witnessing in people over the past few months in terms
Speaker:of the training that we'll be doing.
Speaker:So we'll see you over there if you're in the membership.
Speaker:Everyone else have a great rest of summer and we'll speak soon.
Speaker:Thanks for being with us, Sarah.
Speaker:Thank you.