Addressing the Trust Deficit in Coaching with Jules Wyman

SUMMARY

In this episode of the Coaching Clinic, host Johnny welcomes Jules Wyman, a seasoned confidence coach, to discuss the prevalent trust deficit in the coaching and personal development industry. They delve into how excessive marketing and a focus on quick fixes have eroded genuine trust. Jules emphasises the importance of authenticity, critical thinking, discernment, and building real relationships with clients. They critique the industry's overreliance on hype and big promises, and the discussion shifts to the need for self-trust and gradual, sustainable growth. Additionally, Jules shares insights from her experiences and her upcoming book and podcast.

Want to get in touch with Jules? Here's her website: https://www.juleswyman.online/

CHAPTERS

00:00 Welcome to the Coaching Clinic

00:25 The Trust Deficit in Coaching

01:23 Marketing vs. Authenticity

03:32 Personal Experiences with Misleading Promises

04:57 The Importance of Discernment

05:36 The Reality of Quick Fixes

09:33 Ethics in Personal Development

12:36 The Illusion of Instant Transformation

19:06 The Deeper Issues in Coaching

22:29 The Influence of Investment on Perception

23:35 Navigating Trust in the Coaching Industry

25:03 The Importance of Genuine Client Relationships

26:29 Ethical Sales Practices in Coaching

28:45 Building Trust and Credibility

34:46 Understanding True Confidence

35:57 Applying Knowledge vs. Procrastalearning

39:25 Jules' Book and Podcast

41:55 Final Thoughts and Future Conversations

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2023 Present Influence Productions The Coaching Clinic: Grow Your Coaching Business & Master Coaching Skills 73

Trust and Transformation: The Trust Deficit in Personal Development

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John: Oh, welcome to the coaching clinic today and, uh, for the Eagle Eye Viewer. You might notice that Angie is not with us today. We have instead a spectacular coach, a good friend of mine, the amazing Jules Wyman. So welcome to the coaching clinic, Jules. It's great to have you with us.

Jules Wyman: Spectacular and amazing. No pressure there. Then Johnny.

John: I like to big people up, but, uh, but I'm really pleased to have you with us because, uh, what we're gonna talk about today is, uh, the, the trust deficit in the coaching industry and personal development in general. And I've written some stuff on LinkedIn about this recently and, and. You had commented with some similar experience and I thought, well, you are the perfect person to invite almost Angie's away and come and have a, a chat about this a bit more.

Jules Wyman: I actually think that it's across, I don't think it's just across the coaching industry, but I think the, the biggest problem really is, uh. I'm gonna say social media, but I mean a much more broader sense than that is that people are more interested in marketing a message, um, and creating a sense of, uh, need and desperation than it is actually being authentic and honest.

Jules Wyman: And so I think that that's caused quite a, it's aran, it's become more transactional, I think, than it needs to be, or it should be. Don't use that word as well.

John: I, I do think, yeah, is, um, one of those things. I think ultimately marketers kind of ruin everything. It's just one of those, just one of those things in life, isn't it? Like when, when you've got something that's gonna sell, um, people tend to jump on the bandwagon and it will get marketed the hell out of it.

Jules Wyman: Uh, yeah, and I, I, I love the word discerning, and I think that that's part of the problem is as in, you know, let's take personal responsibility here. We have to work on our discernment, and we have to learn to navigate that because people are really clever with the marketing messages. And I, you know, I've fallen foul of it.

Jules Wyman: Um, to two very big names. Um, and their marketing messaging of what they were gonna deliver sounded absolutely perfect for where I was at and what I needed at that point. And both of which I turned up to. And I kept saying one of them, it was a big event. And I, so I kept going to the organizer going, this is what I was told I was gonna get, and we haven't got there yet.

Jules Wyman: The other person, it was only afterwards when I came back. And again, I asked for a refund. Um, and I spoke to my business mentor at the time about this and her immediate reaction was, oh my God, if I'd have known that you were even contemplating going to work with that person, I'd have told you my experience.

Jules Wyman: I think that that's part of the problem is that it's really hard to, to say without it being slanderous of, you know, I did not have a great experience with these people. If you are gonna do it, great, but just be mindful. You know, we are, we are, they are very good at putting marketing messages out there that go, this person got this result, but actually they, and I understand why.

Jules Wyman: So I think that that, that our own discernment is an important thing that we, I don't think we do enough. I know that you're a big fan of critical thinking yourself, but I think that

John: Yes.

Jules Wyman: it.

John: that only gets you so far. It doesn't, it doesn't immunize you against bad

Jules Wyman: No. No, not at all. Not at all. But I don't think, I don't, for me, I don't think they're bad decisions 'cause they are an opportunity to insight and learn something. 'cause I think very often the marketing messages is, you know, it's selling us something that we think we need, but actually is it, is it really that, that we are looking for and I think because they sell this quick fix or this do this one thing and it's gonna be a forever solution.

Jules Wyman: I think that's part of the problem.

John: We do often check reviews more than we used to before and, but you know, you do look for, particularly now social proof. And because people are able to curate their own social proof to a great degree, you are only get, you're only gonna get one side of the the picture. Very few people are going to have people, people posting, or they're not gonna post testimonials from people who had the worst time or absolutely hated them.

John: But I think maybe they should. And I'll tell you, tell you why, and at least to a degree, uh, because yesterday I was, uh, I was looking at a book and I think, you know what that looks like. It could be an interesting book. I was checking out the author and like, oh, I'm not sure about this. And I looked at the reviews.

Jules Wyman: That's interesting.

John: and this is just a book we're talking about, but I decided not to get it simply because I did not trust that those were all legitimate reviews on that not one person didn't like the book. So I think it

Jules Wyman: but I, I, I, I think that that's an important part as well of it though, is that we need to understand what we mean by trust.

John: Yeah.

Jules Wyman: Yes, there's gonna be, there's gonna be some definitions. I love, uh, Rachel Boatman's, uh, statement around that. She defines trust, um, as a confident relationship with the unknown.

Jules Wyman: That's what I hear you say. Anyway.

John: Yeah. Uh, I, there's, there's two, I guess there's two elements to this, and I think one, one element is. What, what you're in business for. Uh, what what are you, what are you all about? And, and I think there is, I've never really trusted in the personal development business, the people who seem to really be in it for the money more than anything else.

John: Whereas the people who seem to really care about just about transformation and being accessible and, um. Relatable on the smaller levels have been much, always been much more appealing to me. And yet people always seem to push more towards the, the path of bigger and be bigger, being better. Uh, and I think throughout my time in, in coaching and personal development, I've come to believe that that is not so much the case, that bigger is not always better.

Jules Wyman: Now you, you and I have got, um, got that behind it, the experience from a number of different, um, high level, um, personal development events and know the. The KPIs that are there, you know, the, the key performance indicators that are there, if you're at the enrollments table or if you're at, you know, in the crew or the room.

Jules Wyman: Um, and, and I just don't believe that that is, um, I don't believe that's ethical. Um, I get the whole philosophy behind it. I get the psychology and the potential manipulation behind it, but I, I, you know, you don't know the full story of how and why somebody is in that, that financial situation and. They, we need the time to get to understand why they're looking for that quick fix.

Jules Wyman: Um, and I've been doing various forms of personal development and spiritual development for probably close to 30, and I know for at least 50% of that, I was looking for the quick fix. I was looking for the shortcut, the silver bullet, whatever you wanna call it. And it took me a long time to realize that that's not how it works.

Jules Wyman: Mm.

John: and, and that, that level of transformation, you just can't keep having huge leaps of transformation all the time. Um, but. Ongoing growth and transformation is very manageable. It's just, it's just less noticeable and it's more and more adaptable.

John: You always gonna work. I'd love to come away from this event, not recognizing myself being something completely, someone completely different and amazing. Well, you, you might just get that, but then, you know, two weeks later when you've gone back to your life, most, most of the time you'll end up back exactly where you were before you ever went there.

Jules Wyman: Oh yes. IDI dare, I dare go back and actually look and, and mount it up as to how, just how much, but yeah, absolutely.

John: and, and some of that has been money well spent. Maybe took all of it has, I mean, even, even the ones where I didn't get what I hoped I would, there's been something to take away from it. Um.

Jules Wyman: Well, I always ask for a refund, you see? So that, but to be, to be fair, it's only been, it was only those two because they were, I think the, the one was three days, one was four days, and it was just very obvious that what I had been sold wasn't on offer. So if I, if I, if I, what had been sold was on offer and I got, I, I, I just wasn't getting the results that I thought I would, I probably wouldn't have asked for a refund.

John: Uh, you know, for, for obvious reasons as well, because maybe other people are having. Different positive experiences with that maybe, um, you know, word gets out, you know, bad mouthing things, even if you've, even if your experience is legitimate, um, doesn't feel like the right thing to do. And yet, because we do tend to, um, not name the names, especially in, in these sort of public forums like podcasts, people don't know.

John: Who the people are that they probably should steer clear of. We can only really give them the sort of guidelines of, these are the things that I perhaps I wouldn't trust or would question, or these are maybe some best practices to help you with the discernment element here. Um, that, uh, even then, is it, you're not gonna be a hundred percent protected because.

John: You know, it is like these experiences are, are real and do happen to people, and you're like, well, how do you know? Who you should be staying away from or what's the right point to say, uh, I'm getting outta here, or I'm getting my money back. Um, it, it is tougher and it shouldn't take, it shouldn't have to take us 15, 20 years in the industry to be able to figure that out

Jules Wyman: Um, I think it, it, 'cause I even, I, I even messaged him and number of times and saying, this is the, the sort of thing that I'm looking for. Will this course offer me and his replies? If I'm honest with myself, I'm just as complicit because I chose to ignore that. They weren't, there was something that was off that I, that if I genuinely listened to that niggle, then I, I shouldn't have booked it.

Jules Wyman: You know, I shouldn't have, have gone. So I think that, that if we knew our own trust, if we, if we valued that ourselves, then I think we would know, we would get that dis the discernment would be much easier on the, the flip side. And, and I think that. If we are also very honest with our agenda, you know, I'm looking for a quick fix.

Jules Wyman: I can give you information based on previous experience, but I don't know how you and I are gonna be. And also what you do with the information outside of it. And he was really interesting because he said, I did, I, I've got more I've got from this, what I didn't expect and what I would've liked as well.

John: Yeah, I, I do, I do as well, and I'll say this as a, I, I think as even as a coach, I used to feel. Or a bit bad that I wasn't able to deliver that when I, so when I saw other people promising that, and I'm thinking maybe there's something wrong with me as a coach, that my, that my clients are not having that experience

Jules Wyman: But doesn't that perpetuate that in the industry then though? Because then what we do is that, you know, because I see you marketing the unstoppable or the, you know, the breakthrough or the suddenness that I then start marketing that, and then it, it perpetuates the very thing that we're saying that is not helpful.

John: Yeah, unfortunately. So especially when that's what people then start demanding is like, uh, what, what sounds better to, to you or to anyone? Um, something we're gonna have to work on possibly for years or something that we can fix. In an instant,

Jules Wyman: Exactly,

Jules Wyman: pill. Yeah,

John: not a hard choice, is it?

John: And, and yet, and yet, those instant fixes never are. And, and this is, this is one of the things I've discovered even with, you know, I, I, I, I don't use much NLP these days. Even have to having paid a lot of money to learn all of it. Um. But there's, there's only some bits of it I still even find any value in at all.

John: A lot of it I think, is, is hype. A lot of it is hype and, um, and, and a lot of change that people have is hype. And, and I, I've seen this from having come from, uh, a religious background where people were doing like spiritual healings and stuff like that. Um, to the personal development world where there were similar kind of things going on, in all honesty, that people were ultimately convincing themselves that they were okay.

Jules Wyman: Reverts back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John: Yeah, because it hasn't really been, maybe okay, maybe you haven't had to deal with it for a while, and you put it outta your mind. Great. You had a break from it, but that's what you got. Uh, it didn't resolve the issue because some of these things, they just run a lot deeper, and we can't just erase things from our brain, from our, you know, neural pathways.

John: There is, there is no eraser that just says, all right, that's gone. Now. It's still there.

Jules Wyman: Don't really know how the thinking mind works and all the stuff that's going on in the background. So the, the subtle manipulations that somebody's doing intentionally or unintentionally, um, are gonna be influencing us. So we, we, we, again, that's where we need to have our sp senses out a little bit more with. Making ourselves a bad person. If we made a decision to invest that money or go to that course and, and, and actually walk away and go, yeah, no, that didn't work. That wasn't what I was looking for.

John: Hmm. You've already mentioned that there was somebody that came to you as wanting guarantees. I'm just wondering any other sort of incidences or thoughts that have, have come up for you about where the general lack of trust in the industry and maybe has, has affected your way? You've noticed that? Coming up with, uh, maybe with your own clients or in your own work.

Jules Wyman: There's so many different people out there that the market is who do I go? Who do I actually go to now? Who's really gonna help me? And a colleague of mine in York, we talk about this very often 'cause she started a year before me. So she's been around 20, 20, 21 years. I've been doing it 20 years just over.

Jules Wyman: And we were laughing a few weeks ago about how many quote unquote coaches we've seen come and go over the years. And that there, there's tends to be this pattern and it's usually, I think there's a desperation of people like you were pointing to earlier of going, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where I can make money.

Jules Wyman: Because to me it's still a discovery call, but it's, it's, you know. To me, I just wanna set up a call. I want to find out where you are, what you are actually looking for from coaching, because I wanna discern whether A coaching I believe is the right way for you or whether and or whether I am the right coach for you.

Jules Wyman: And in that I will give an insight in a conversation. And I think that that's the only way, whether it doesn't matter, whether it's to do with your health or your finances or coaching, is talk to the person. Then go with with what you genuinely feel. I personally, if I come off a call and someone's like, yeah, you're not the right person for me, I think that's the right answer.

John: And if it is, do you need it now? Uh, is, is, is now the right time to move forward with it? What, what's really going on for you? What, where are you looking to get to? Why does it matter to you? Um. Yet, what ends up happening, I think a lot of the time, is people, people do just get focused on make sales, make the sales, make the sales.

John: And I get that, is that businesses need a bottom line and people need to make money to put food on the table and all that. But at some point things cross over from, uh, sales being serviced to sales being gimme your money, this is a stickup kind of thing. Um, you know, almost the point of like, well, you know.

John: Um, or euros of dollars, whatever you're working in. Um, well, for sure, but who's gonna do that? They've just landed on your webpage. They don't know, they may not know anything about you just at the moment, and you are asking them to, to fork up, um, a, a bunch of money to come and work with you. Firstly, they don't know, even if they're on the right page, they don't know anything about you.

John: They don't know if there's someone you want to work with. You haven't established any kind of relationship with them or any kind of connection at that point. And this is the stuff that takes time. And I think when people try and shortcut all of that, it causes problems as well. It's, I see a lot more focus now on people having the relationship based stuff, like having people wanting to have podcasts because it helps them establish long-term relationships with, with people in, in their audiences.

John: They feel like they have a relationship with you, but they've never actually spoken to you. But to actually pull them into, well, let's, let's make that an active connection. Um, someone who I think does that pretty well is, uh, is a guy called Chris Ducker. I dunno if you know Chris, but, um. Generally when whether you like, whether you know Chris maybe isn't for everyone, but whether you like him or not.

John: I was like, right. So I felt straight away. I actually got to connect with the person and, and got to that. That's so important. Uh, but also now, now more than ever. We want to get some baseline of trust with people to say, all right, can I, can I trust you? Can I actually connect with you and have some relationship, um, you know, can, can I talk to you?

John: Can I find out more about you? Um, that it's hard to have that trust. And I think unless we're making, unless we're making sort of very, you know, low, lower value purchases, you know, with like 47 pound for this quick program or course or whatever, or download, you know, they, the kind of stuff that. You don't really want to be, you don't want it to be crap if you're gonna spend any money on it, but you could live with it if it ends up not being what, what you really want.

Jules Wyman: Uh, I think, uh, this is so much in what you've said. I think, I think one of the things where potentially some of the, the, the issues start in relation to this is. Is the initial sales to people who wanna be coaches because it's, I haven't seen any adverts for this for a long period of time, but certainly the ones that I used to see was all around, make a five figure salary a month, and it was, it was always 20 to 50 K that was pitched.

Jules Wyman: I had a lady reach out. She'd met me at a talk I was doing a few months back. She, we then spoke and very quickly I knew that that what I charge was out of her budget. So I went, well, I've got this option, or I've got this. 'cause she kept saying, I really wanna work with you. And I'm like, well, you could do this or you could do this.

Jules Wyman: And she's like, you membership's perfect. I can afford that. I mean, that to me was far more valuable. Whether she stays for two months, whether she stays for 20 years. That was a more valuable conversation than pushing to get her over the line for the bigger sale, because that's what was important to me is, is having something there to be able to help her.

Jules Wyman: That is where you build that connection with people. Yeah. You know, there's a consistency there with what John is saying, or there's a consistency there with how Jules is showing up. So therefore, actually that is the right person for me. Rather than it just being a hype of, woo-hoo, here we go. This is what I can offer you.

John: Yeah, no, I, I think part of the problem as well is that there's a lot of people out there very confidently making claims about what they can do or what they can offer you. Um, but confidence does not equal necessarily competence. Uh, sometimes it's, you know, we can, we can always put on an era of confidence about ourselves and go forward and be like, uh, brave and bold and confident in a presentation and, and, and maybe even convince people with that.

John: If we're looking for like, um, not sort of brash big claim confidence, but, but real confidence. What do you see that as?

Jules Wyman: I, I dunno if you know this, Johnny, but the root derivation of the word confidence is the Latin confidere, which literally means with trust. So, so it perfectly ties into this conversation and competencies. Competencies is an external thing. It's about those abilities, the experience, the skills, those kind of things that somebody else can acknowledge.

Jules Wyman: But true confidence is about that self-trust. It is about, um, it's not, one of my favorite quotes is by Pete McIntyre, which is confidence isn't about always being right. It's about not fearing to be wrong. So the confidence is about having a go. For me, so I think that that. And I think this is where people get caught up, be beca.

Jules Wyman: And I thought it was such a brilliant phrase to recognize that. There's this perception that if I get more competence, then I'm gonna feel more confident. Rather than recognizing that you've gotta do stuff to have the learning, which means you've gotta fall over, you've gotta muffle your words, you've gotta sound like an absolute idiot in order to learn how to do something.

Jules Wyman: That's when you go, okay, well I can learn from that in order then to be able to use it differently in the in the future. And I think that the mis misunderstanding of what confidence is for many, many people is that it is about being loud and it is about knowing all the answers. It is about being bold and being the person on the stage, and actually some of the.

Jules Wyman: So I think that there's, there's something about a, a, an assuredness within ourselves. And again, all of these things assuredness, trust, confidence, they all intrinsically link. And when we engage with that, when we know those for, for ourselves internally, we then do make different decisions external.

John: Yeah, my, my dad always, I've had it instilled in me and my dad always say, has always said to me, don't, don't speak unless you've got something worth saying. And I've always carried that as a philosophy in life about try not, I don't just wanna speak and fill the air, I wanna speak when I have something that's worth saying.

John: Is it always like, buy the next program? There's, that's the answer, the next program, the next program, whatever else. Um, that's certainly something we want to come. Come back on the show and take a look at, at some point,

Jules Wyman: Well, dare I dare I mention Tony Robbins, but Tony on one of his courses, once it really struck me that he, he was waving up. A self-help book. So this, this would've been close to 20 years ago, right at the beginning of my coaching career. And he said, how many of you have read this book? And I would say about, and it was one of his, and I would say about 90% of the room raised his hands.

Jules Wyman: And he went, all right, now be honest. How many of you read it for, to cover? To cover? And a huge percentage dropped their hands. And he said, and out of you that have got your hands up, how many of you genuinely be honest, actually applied what was in the book? And there are a number of hands that went down and, and he said, look.

John: A hundred, a hundred percent. I and I, I know I've been guilty of that many times

John: as well. Something, yeah, something lemme try to avoid. Jules, it would be wrong of us to wrap up the episode without mentioning that you do have a book and a podcast for. Those who thinking of Jules is great. Let's hear more from Jules.

John: Uh, so te tell us a, tell us a little bit about that before we finish up with today.

Jules Wyman: So the book is, um, gonna be launched very soon. This what's over my, my right shoulder, it's called Feel Good More Often, and it's a journal and it's taken from the reflections that I write every single week. So I've taken those reflections and I've created a journal so you can do one of those a week and.

John: That is good.

Jules Wyman: Within this that's a good nugget.

Jules Wyman: And then the um, so that will be out in the next couple of weeks. And then the Coming to Your Senses podcast, um, will be, is just over 18 months old now. Goes out every Friday and I, one episode is me. One episode is with a guest. And it's about those moments in our lives where we come to our senses, and it might be because something's suddenly changed in our lives or we've got a kick up the proverbial butt that made us stop and go, Hmm, do you know what?

John: I, I will, I will be there. Try and keep me away. Um, but that, that's amazing. What great idea for a show. And, and I definitely want, uh, deputy Goon taking a listen to that myself and, and another book idea as well. Uh, unfortunately, if I tried publishing my journals, I think they would be on a very different category.

John: That would be great.

Jules Wyman: Love to. Thanks Johnny.

John: Thanks Jules.