Join Mike Graen as he welcomes Gena Morgan - Vice President of Standards at GS1 - for a conversation exploring GS1 Sunrise 2027 and its impact on On Shelf Availability. Topics of discussion include:

• Improving OSA with GS1 standards
• Benefits of serialization
• RFID use-cases

Welcome to Conversations on retail. My name

is Matt Pfeiffer. It's a beautiful day in Northwest

Arkansas. We're so excited to have Mike Graen here with us

this morning to continue his on shelf availability series.

Today, his guest is Gina Morgan, Vice President of standards for

GS1 and their conversation today is to talk about GS1 and sunrise

2027. Just a couple of things in the way of housekeeping before

we get started. Very, very briefly, I want to thank the

University of Arkansas has been recognized for the second year

in a row as the number one undergraduate supply chain

program in North America, and you can learn more about that

program. Also want to recognize our sponsors, breakcore

barcoding fusion SCS mega tag and Willie out that just added

this week, we're so grateful to our sponsors for making this

series possible. In case you missed it, Mike has put up a

tremendous body of work, you can check out all of his past

conversations on our YouTube channel, which is @youtube.com

forward slash at conversations on retail. We worked with Mike a

couple of months ago to launch a new gathering place and Resource

Center for on shelf availability and we won't linger there long,

but you can check out on shelf availability.com for some great

resources. Lastly, I would just say that this is intended to be

a conversation and not a presentation. And we would love

for you that who are joining us live to participate, and you

could do that simply by clicking on the q&a button in zoom and

submitting your questions and comments and writing. Mike loves

for me to mention that it's critically important that we

comply with all federal antitrust laws. We're not going

to talk about anything related to pricing margins, discounts,

suppliers, timing of price changes, marketing, product

plans, anything that would be competitively sensitive. Last

thing is the opinions of Mike and his guests are their own and

not necessarily those are conversations on retail. So

before acting on their opinions, recommendations, make sure that

they are suitable for your own circumstances. Mike with that,

finally, I will turn it over to you. Thank you so much for your

patience and looking forward to this conversation.

Absolutely. So a couple things first off that

don't share any pricing any any conflict of interest or anything

that looks like an antitrust violation. I gotta be honest

with you. I've used that line for 25-30 years now every time I

do one of these conversations, and I take it shamelessly steal

stole it from GS1. So Gina, I know you you've had a role in

saying that a few times. But I believe it's so powerful that in

today's world, we don't we don't do anything that looks like an

antitrust violation.

I did my part.

I know you can, exactly. So just just to

reiterate, we've got Gena and I who are going to be basically

having a series of conversations. It's almost like

you've joined us at the coffee shop at the table. So the folks

who are on the line are going to be able to hear that you don't

have the ability to actually talk during this. But if you

have any questions or any comments that you'd like to

make, feel, feel free to use that Question and Answer button

at the bottom of the zoom. And as we get through this, we will

certainly ask those questions. That's why that way we can ask

Gena questions that she hasn't prepared for which I love. So

Gina, let me start let me start out with a real basic question.

Tell us a little bit about Gena Morgan. You've been in the

industry a long time who is Gena Morgan and tell us a little bit

about yourself.

Thank you for asking Mike I've been in the

industry a long time right next to you sir. So I'm it's my

pleasure to be here with you. I am Gena Morgan, I have been in

the GS1 world of Standards and Technology for almost going on

25 years now which is super scary and weird for me but and I

previously was actually a consultant for GS1 U.S as well

as GS1 global office and facilitated the development of a

lot of, of the different standards and technologies and

services that you see as part of our solutions now today

including the global data synchronization network. We had

a an organization might called EPC global which was really the

kickstart of RFID technology when MIT said we need supply

chain use for this technology and help to develop both the

protocol standards for that house as well the the data

sharing standards for that, which we might get into a little

bit today. So I have in various capacities been around industry,

driving requirements for those types of solutions. And now I am

the Vice President of standards. I went in house to help lead the

organization through the next generation of leaders in this

space. So I'm happy to be here I am also from Atlanta, Georgia.

It is a beautiful sunny day. You could see that light coming in

here as well. Originally from my dear state of Louisiana where I

am an avid sports fan as one might imagine.

is it Louisiana or is it Louisiana? Louisiana? I've

heard it both ways. Which way is it?

For people from Louisiana? It's Louisiana.

Yeah. I've always wanted to know that.

Nobody from Atlanta says Hotlanta. Mike, they just

say Atlanta.

Well, you know, I'm from Arkansas. And you know,

people are not from Arkansas. Are you from Ar-Kansas. We're

not from Ar-Kansas. We're from Arkansas. So. So, way before

GS1, you actually started in retail, which is interesting,

because now you're setting standards for retail. I did a

little bit of snooping on your LinkedIn profile. There was a

company called Upton's. Yeah. Tell us about Upton's. And how

did that help shape the work that you do now the fact that

you guys actually worked in retail before that?

Actually so Upton's was my second real job in

retail. My first one was a department store, and it was a

department store in Atlanta. But my first job was with Yonkers

department stores, and I started out of college, somewhat out of

college after I took a little break.

That's a whole other podcast.

That was my first real job, I should say, as a

buyer for the office department stores in Des Moines, Iowa. Now

imagine John, I mean, Mike, moving from New Orleans,

Louisiana, to Des Moines, Iowa, a little bit of a shocker there.

But that was my first job. I was a dress buyer, I was a merchant,

studying to be a merchant at LSU. That was all I ever wanted

to do was be an apparel buyer. And the reason is, I had grown

up around retail at a department store called gotchas. And you in

Louisiana. And my dad actually was the CIO at gotchas. And I

used to play with punch cards just as my child, he'd bring

those punch cards. Oh, and we would play office with them. But

anyway, started my career up at Yonkers. And my father,

actually, you can call me in that bucket, if you like, but my

father was the CIO and Yonkers. I was originally going to go to

work at a store in Birmingham, Alabama, and my dad was like,

Hey, you might like it up here next with with your mom and I

turned out my he was the CIO. They're leading a huge retail

convert systems conversion. And, and so I don't want to say I was

a mole, but I was a good person to say, This is what the

merchants need. This is what the merchants want. This is, you

know, little, feeding some stuff into the technology department,

which he was doing this huge version that is really, how am

I, my passion moved from being a dress buyer into wow, I really

liked this technology stuff. And I like understanding the

business requirements. And then being that kind of man in the

middle between technology and the business. And so that's kind

of the role I play today. At GS1. Oddly enough, it I don't

know that I planned it that lit up yet, you know, in a linear

fashion, but here I am.

Love it. Love that story. Alright, we have our

first question. And you'll laugh, which is how do you

pronounce I'm gonna say New Orleans? How do you say it is

since you are a native of that? You've been part of that. How do

you say it?

New Orleans?

Okay, you got that Eric? We're good.

Not New Orleans, New Orleans.

All right, it's two words.

Two words, New Orleans.

All right. Well, let me tell you, let me tell you a

really brief story. I wasn't going to do this. But I gotta

love the fact that I've had a chance in my 40 year career to

work with GS1. And one of my favorite projects was when I was

still with Procter and Gamble, working with Walmart. Walmart

had a purchasing system that the PIO had intelligence in it and

Jamie help, you can already roll the eyes of the back of your

head. So the first two digits were the DC number, then there

was the department number, which is two digits. Well, the DC

number was two digits, and they were about to roll out DC number

100. Right? A y2k problem. I won't tell you through all that,

sometimes will tell you the story. But the end of the day,

what they wanted to do is they were going to move to a non

intelligent purchase order. And then they wanted all of their

suppliers to code, order number, a DC number, etc. In all the

shipping papers, Edi platform, and when I was at p&g, I go, we

can do that? That'll cost a lot of money and we just continue to

get our stuff unloaded. There's got to be a better way, and I

won't tell you all the backstory for that. But that was a day

where they said, well, we don't have another option when the

guard shack looks at the paperwork. They got all that

goes to door that goes to Door number seven. Yeah, we started

looking with the old GS1, folks, this is probably previous to you

and I go, Well, we've got this thing called the Global location

number that might be able to be used. So you don't have to ask

all your suppliers to code proprietary stuff in for

Walmart. Best Story that GS1 came to the rescue, you guys

have always been always just a little bit in front of the

industry, helping to set standards for things that are

happening, which is incredible. So that's one example. But this

focus of this group is actually focused on on shelf

availability. So I'd be really interested from your

perspective, you know, how do you see that GS1 has been

actively involved working with retailers and CPGs to really

help drive supply chain and on shelf availability?

Sure, well, for those of you who may not be who

are with us today who may not be GS1, aficionado. I mean, we

started our origin story is the UPC code. And the whole purpose

of that that code was to improve efficiency at checkout. And we

had our first scan we'll celebrate that 50th anniversary

of the first scan of the barcode next year. But that unique

identification of a product, also then springboard into a

slew of different use cases that helped manage inventory better.

As soon as you're managing your inventory better, you have

better on shelf availability. And so for some time, that was

the solution to that. And then as we have grown, and things

have changed, and supply chains have become more complex, it's

really about what are the technologies that can do that

better do that faster, less friction, and whatnot. And so as

I mentioned, in my, in my overview of who I am, we were

really instrumental in developing standards for RFID.

That can help you it's not just about, although it's a primary

purpose of scanning without, without a human intervention,

what RFID brought to the table is this idea of unique, but

granular uniqueness to identification of our product.

So now you can truly see this visibility to such a fine

grained level that you're on shelf availability is essential.

So we develop the standards for that, we always go back, Mike to

our foundation of regardless of data carrier, you have to have

global unique identification of what it is that you are selling,

what it is that you are stocking, all of those things.

So that's really foundational to all of it. And we consistently

look around the corner to say, what's the what, what

technologies are around the corner, and how does that

intersect with standards and leverage what people have

invested in already today, to ensure that we can just keep

improving on shelf availability.

So you mentioned Punch, punch cards, I'm going to

take you way back, here's an item right there. Before there

was a UPC code, at a discount store, at a grocery store, etc.

How did people actually bring up these items? Exactly, then they

would look for a price sticker on the product. And they

wouldn't care what it was, it would say it's $4.99. And that's

how they do it. You guys introduced the UPC, which

fundamentally changed basically the entire supply chain on shelf

availability point of sale systems, etc, which allows you

to be able to basically scan a barcode, which said, that's this

blue cup. And that blue cup in our system costs $4.99. That's

what I'm going to bring up at the register. Ironically enough,

you're celebrating the 50 year of the barcode. At the same

point in time, you're implementing solutions to

eliminate that. So on this UPC, this UPC, I scan it, and it says

I have 10 in the store. Yeah. Unpack for us the idea of

serialization, because I think people use that word, and they

don't understand what it means. today. It's a UPC, and it's

quantity of 10. What does it mean in the future? When you say

you have a serialized item? So this cup is now serialized, what

does that mean?

Great question. And RFID actually kind of

highlighted the value of serialization. Because with RFID

technology, you're not there's no human that's going scan,

scan, yep, scan, which is, you know, just a human count of

let's say you have 10 D, it's just a radio wave out there. So

unless you serialize you don't know if you saw one thing 10

times or you saw it's 10 distinct things, unless you

serialize that's the value of serialization. Now I know this

has this is a very specific instance of this hand sanitizer,

which is different or identified differently from the next

instance of this. And so you can get really fine grain visibility

into your into what's happening in your store and beyond on

shelf availability starting to capture serialized data at point

of sale, you can tie that to a customer, you could tie that to

an incident, whether it be a recall, or whatnot expire

product in the future to have that communication. You can do

returns fraud, you can do loss prevention, there's a number of

different things that when you tie it to this instance, that is

walking out the door right now provides you that difference, it

we to get walking on it like that just you have a class

level, and you have an instance level of something. And the

instance level is that serialized, very distinct

instance of the thing. And when you look at stuff like that,

it's a game changer, because your visibility, just because so

fine grained.

be helpful for the audience, if they're new to this

thing. Here's the example that I use. If I have two Ford, F 150,

pickup trucks sitting in the parking lot right next to each

other, the same color the same year, the same options are all

aid identical. What separates one from the other one is not

the license plate, because you could swap license plate is the

VIN number of that truck. Different VIN number. Exactly,

exactly. So in this case, I've got this blue cup, which has a

UPC, but it has a serial number with it. So it distinguishes

there's only this cup that has a unique identifier across the

that is incredible to think about. And yes, we did it for

RFID. We're going to now talk a little bit about, well, what are

the other uses of that? Because one of the things that we want

to talk about is this concept of sunrise 2027. Okay, and

sometimes people, I get a laugh, because sometimes people would

announced this as sunset 2027 Where's the sun setting the UPC,

that's in fact not the case, right, it's still gonna be

that's still gonna be alive and well out there. It's gonna give

people another opportunity. So talk to us a little bit about

what sunrise 2027 was all about?

Sure. And I'll tell you where it came from. I think

we had a couple of slides if you wanted to show. But sunrise 2027

is really about responding to the ever changing needs of the

supply chain. And that starts from, you know, between business

and business and business to consumer. And so the consumers,

the consumers demand for more information about the products

that they are purchasing, and the ability to get to that

information is super important.

That was first one.

All right, first of all, sorry. Well, let me just

say it right here, the consumers desire to get more information

about the products that they buy is one of the drivers as well,

the supply chain is super complex with lots of demands on

it, we just lived through COVID Right. And um, I don't know

about you my but I was every night I'm like this could be

solved if everybody had unique identification and automatic

data capture and sharing and all that sort of thing. And so so

really, that is what's happening. Now the consumers

have more expectations and businesses need more data. And

that UPC code that just tells you that's a blue cup. It's it,

we need more, right? Where did that blue cup come from? Who

manufactured that blue cup didn't come from a sustainable

source, etc. And then moving to things like food. And food

safety is super important. And there's a lot of requirements

and regulations coming down for that. What's what it was that

batch or lot was that recalled all sorts of things like that.

There's more and more demands on knowing what's happening with

that blue cup. And as such, you can't tell you can't deliver all

of that simply with the UPC barcode alone, especially with

the mobile phone and different apps. Like you can do stuff with

the with the UPC code with specific applications in your

retail store to manage on shelf availability, and all of those

things. You can do stuff with UPC barcode in an app, My

Fitness Pal or whatnot. But you can't really trust that that

data that is backing, that scan came from the original source

and all those types of things. So moving to a 2D code allows a

couple of things. It allows granular identification, whether

it be at the batch or the lot level, or the serialized level,

which like we just talked about, opens up visibility. But it also

allows you to possibly embed data elements that might be

important, like an expiration date for perishables, possibly a

production date, and be able to serve that up. The other key

thing is in moving to a 2D barcode, we create just like the

it's the UPC code with some additional data. And what's

really key is in a web resolvable format, we have the

ability with 2D codes to now put that in a web resolvable format.

So there's all sorts of different things that can happen

with that.

So let's break down the benefits to a couple of

different folks. First off the customer, the person who's

actually buying the product of the store. You recently did a

video with John Phillips in GS1, I thought it did a really good

job of from a consumer perspective what the value would

be for a 2D barcode. And I would like to show that now

I would love to share that now. Thanks for

teeing that

might be on next year. So at the end, Hello, I'm

John Phillips. I'm the Senior Vice President of customer

supply chain and go to market for PepsiCo representing loved

brands like Doritos, Lay's Quaker Oats, Gatorade, and Pepsi

to name a few. We live in an age of I would say digital

disruption virtually every consumer nine out of 10 carry a

smartphone in that that tool is enabled an incredible amount of

insight into the products they purchase and the products they

discover and investigate. And the 2D barcode which will

replace the current UPC that's administered by GS1 will enable

a whole new set of transformational capabilities

under a global standard called the GS1 digital link that will

enable new capabilities that are not possible with the current

UPC barcode that we've had for the last 50 years the ability to

click on a PepsiCo product and get the definition of every

single ingredient in a product and why it's in there in that

particular formulation. So think about that trying to just

physically fit that on a package, it would be impossible

to go do that recently, there was a new allergen added to the

US allergen list something called sesame. And if you think

about that, once it's identified, it's 18 to 24 months

before consumer product companies refresh packages, and

you get that text on the package. Think of a digital

world where if I had a digital activation on every package, and

it's been ratified in the legislation, the ink is dry on

it, I can instantly provide that information to the consumer

digitally. All of that is now possible with a single 2D

barcode on a package enabled by the global industry standards

from GS one that actually create the GS one digital link, the

amount of information that consumers are seeking is

expanding, it's not contracting, if you're not yet engaged in

this conversation, the time is now. That's a great video, Gina,

I love I love that you guys did a really good job of kind of

laying that out, you got a pretty good leader and John to

explain the benefits from the consumer perspective.

Yeah, that's sure I like to take him everywhere I

go. But since I can't take his video.

That's awesome. Perfect, perfect. So that's the

benefit for the customer. They get information, which is much

deeper than just a UPC of some of the examples he gave. But

there's also things like if there's a product recall with

today, we pull everything off the shelf, because we just don't

know. But it could have been just a specific lot, number of

of group of products came from one plant that need to be

recalled. This could save the industry a lot of money. So the

freshness for the consumer. But let's talk a little bit about

the retailers. What are some of the benefits that you see of

this move to a 2D bar code for the retail community? Oh, yeah,

great question. Similarly, like it all boils

down to now I'm tracking I'm able to have an identification

at the product level with an expiration date and possibly

other things that allow me to do freshness management, super

important to do that. If you think about deli, dig, bakery,

dairy deli bakery. Sorry, I never say that. Right. I can do

that. And that can be with different technologies. And I

want to I want to stress that we're not picking one or the

other. I don't think it's an either or I often think it's an

and. And so having that ability to be able to sense and see and

scan and get, oh, this is that Batch lot and have a red light,

say don't let that cross point of sale. That's a recalled

product, or even do dynamic markdowns, if we think about if

we think about that, just that lower level of granularity and

the ability to serve that is useful. Additionally, I would

say for retail for for anyone implementing this, that scan,

and we are all trained now. And I'm, like I said been around

since punchcards. But that stand which remember before the

pandemic, my QR codes were supposed to be dead, right? And

I recall at because I've been around this for a while and

they're like Gen Z is never going to scan a 2D QR code. Stop

talking about it. So we did and and so then the pandemic comes

in the QR codes like opened up to everybody and their mother

and their mother's mother. And so it really kind of it had a

renaissance, so to speak, but so now for the businesses For the

brand's, you got a consumer scanning that thing, you can get

a lot of intelligence on what's happening with your product.

Same thing for the retailers who this doesn't, this doesn't

disintermediate the retailers in the value of their app, but it

allows you to serve and personalize that experience

within your app based on the products that the the consumer

is interacting with.

So you mentioned something really important. And

I've got a question. Regarding the point of sale activation of

this, in the beginning of this is serialized data became closed

because RFID because I got to be able to scan unique items. Yeah,

let's be really clear, the RFID, the RF and RFID is the radio

frequency. That's how you capture the data, the ID portion

in RFID can be represented in electronic tag, or it can be

represented by this 2D barcode, that's absolutely don't have to

have an RFID system to take advantage of the serialized data

in this product, correct?

That is correct. And I will also add, Mike, you don't have to

serialize product to get benefits from moving to 2D

barcodes. And indeed, what we talked about and how we're

initially rolling this out, is dependent for now, depending on

the product type and the product characteristics, it might not

make sense to try to serialize a can of Pepsi, for example. Which

is a great point because it really depends on the product

characteristics in the lot and what it means to manufacture

that product. Pepsi is super fast line speeds. And serialized

barcodes are a unique barcode. And every time you change that

serial number, it's not practical. And it's not

practical in today's for today, right? line, the line speeds are

too fast. Now there are plenty of abilities that enable that.

But there's a period of time where we have to get to that

point. So I want to be make sure we're very clear this rollout to

2D barcodes doesn't mean everything's going to be

serialized. In fact, not at all. It does provide that ability.

And in some, in some categories, like apparel, where they're

already RFID, tagging it, it just opens that wide open. But

in center store, maybe just the G 10. And having that in a web

resolvable way or the the label variant as what what is

important to me. And where I can get some use on that perimeter

of a superstore where you've got perishable goods, I can now put

in that lot in that batch. And so there's really a roadmap

forward. And so there's no one size here. It depends. And so I

want to make sure that we're clear on that.

Yeah, so so I've got a question from Ron, that I think is a

really good one that I want to ask you. And I'm not asking you

to represent hardware suppliers in any way, shape, or form. But

his question is a really good way, what percentage of the

deployed scanner or set scales can handle a 2D barcode? huge

expense to replace those rate question? It's a great question.

Yeah well, we started this initiative with a

with research on that back in 2017, or 18. And really, so the

the number one requirement for reading a 2D code is it's got to

be an optical scanner. Yep. So the amount so our research

returned back then that it was 87% of install base were

optical. And then it's likely increased since then we're about

to commission a new study. But I think the number was upwards of

that by 2027. And so optical for this initiative to be able to

read A 2D code at point of sale, extract, the G 10. That's all

you can, that's all the requirement for 2027 is right

now is extract that UPC or that G 10. And go beep like it does

today. All that what is required for that as a firmware upgrade

to and up to the optical scanners that are installed. And

we've worked with the top three scanner manufacturers in the US.

And there's a lot happening globally. China's like way off

to the races, mostly for regulation on this, but there's

a lot of work in Europe as well. With that capability. We've

worked with our technology providers here in the US to

develop the code necessary to do a couple things, because we

didn't want to break and is such a great question, John. Ron,

because we can't break point of sale. Great that you have this

marker that gives you everything. So we work with

those scanner manufacturers to do some code work to ensure a

couple things. I can read this thing fast 40 to 70 items per

minute I think is the is the standard for the current UPC

code and I can read URL link and I could get what I need and I

can go beat at the same speeds. I can do it from a UPC code

today. That's number one. And then the second thing that we

did was we wanted to ensure in the in the transitional period

or in the case where there's a UPC and the 2D barcode with the

same data. It reads that but it knows which one to read it

priority, it only goes beep once because you don't want to leave

the customer being charged twice, of course. It's a

firmware upgrade that are that are being rolled out. And there

are some legacy scanners out there that we still have to work

on getting ensuring that that firmware upgrade is there. But

we anticipate all of the major scanner manufacturers being able

to push that within the next six to 12 months, if not sooner, I

don't want to speak for them. But it's on the roadmap for well

before 2027. We're doing active pilots with those folks today.

So it's there.

Yep. And so So just to follow up on Ron's comment,

he added back, changing the configuration and extract the G

10 is fairly trivial. As long as the scanner can scan it, it

sounds like for the most of the majority of the optical readers,

we should have no issues with that at all.

That's correct. And I want to just one more point,

because we have talked about the batch and a lot number and the

expiry date. And that's really where you can unpack some value.

Our testing also included scanning and extracting those

different data elements, there are application identifiers that

say you're about to read G 10, you're about to read the

expiration date, you're about to read the lot number, so the

scanner is able to pull that out, and then serve that up to

the host system. And the host ID and it can still do that at

speed. What the host system does behind the scenes is kind of up

to the retailer. But we are working with the major

manufacturers there as well. If you're doing stack data bars for

fresh food today, you already do that. So just want to make sure

it's not just the G 10 at some of this other data elements as

well.

Yep, perfect. So there's two more that I can

think of right off the top. There's a whole bunch of

benefits for this. But one of them that I've heard from the

industry is especially related to food and food safety and

marked down of food. Think about a world where you literally put

an RFID tag or a 2D barcode or both the same and put it on the

product, the by the way, they have to match that yes, with the

data in the RFID tag has to match the duty barcode or we're

going to have all kinds of challenges. But you can actually

encode in that not only the UPC G 10, but the serial number and

a potential date for like people who are making products in the

store like cookies and candy, it's whatever, you can go, hey,

it was manufactured on this date. So by the way, four days

from now, or three days from now, whatever, you don't have to

go pick up every package and look at it, you can actually use

RFID to find those one or two that need to be marked down for

a quick sale. That's a huge labor savings for retailers.

Right?

Absolutely. And what you picked up on there is

if you replicate that in a 2D barcode, you can get some

consumer engagement there, the consumer can can scan a 2D code

now and see what's up with that product. But additionally,

because and Mike we can debate this on when all checkout stands

might have RFID readers tied to their POS system. But we don't

have that today. And then up whether those things are out

there. But what's not an install base that we had today, when you

when you can replicate what's in an RFID tag with a 2D barcode.

You can now check out with that 2D barcode and make make sense

of that. So you've got this rich set of data that you can tie to

your sales data and do a number of things like that.

Gina, we've been working together too long,

you're starting to finish my son's as that is that is the

second use case for those your I recently had Joe Colon from

Macy's. Macy's is a classic and they are so far ahead of

everybody else of leveraging, specifically RFID data. But the

ID the serialized data in that to say what left the store that

didn't get paid for what the problem was at point of sale.

today. I'm bringing it up that all UPC that I'm comparing it to

the serialized data that left, so three got sold. Five left,

which left that didn't get sold, I don't know. But what you're

saying in the future is I don't have to have an RFID reader at

point of sale. That's probably going to disappoint people like

zebra etc, because they'd love to sell more point of sale

readers at sale. But the bottom line is the scanner could

collect that serialized data then I know exactly what item

left the store what two of those items left the store that didn't

get paid for because I'm actually capturing that data at

point of sale. I think that's a powerful asset protection use

case where I'm literally scanning the unique serial

number of that item comparing it to well off the actual store.

Yeah absolutely. There's another one in Dillards.

Dillards speaks with us a lot on this. And they were not not as

quick to adopt RFID as Macy's of course, but but are jumping on

2D for that, that use case, Mike, but also returns fraud.

And a number of different retailers have as you know, you

go into a buy a pair of shoes and they scan the UPC code, then

they scan a sticker, and then they put that sticker on there.

And so when you try to return and they scan the sticker, well,

once you have serialized identification at point of sale,

it takes that whole process out of the out of the equation.

So walk through that. So I've got a sale of

let's go back to my blue cops, I got five of these blue cops,

three of them that unique serial number, left the store, two of

them left the store, but never went through a register. That's

like two days later that two of those come in and try and get

returned to the returns counter. Whatever the messaging to the

customer is is a different topic. But the retailer goes,

does never got paid for. That's correct. If you can't produce

for me your receipt. Correct, then guess what? I cannot return

that product for you. Right? Or worse yet, we happen to know

that that didn't go through a register and left the store. Now

you're trying to get money, you have two options. A you can

leave my merchandise with me. Or B, we'll call the police one of

the other I just for fun. For fun.

Well I mean, listen, that's a real issue

right now. Retail what the word escapes me, but

ORC organized retail crime ORC

is a big issue. And then it's coming back. And it's coming

back for the cash. And so if you can tie that to an instance of a

product and know if it was sold be great.

Yep. Exactly, exactly. So what let's kind of keep moving here.

Lots of really cool stuff that this is possible. So GS1 has now

delivered and is sharing information about sunrise 2027.

Before we talk about the specific, what exactly has to

happen industry wide to allow this to happen? That seems like

a big change. The standards are out there ahead of everybody

else, which is great. What exactly involved? What are the

suppliers have to do? What are the retailers have to do? What

are the solution providers have to do?

Great, that's a great question. So sticking with the suppliers

and where we're going like we there, John Phillips said it

best and there are other other brands and suppliers that are

saying it as well with him. There are benefits to more data

and being able to link to additional information about

that product, right. All of these use cases made possible by

2D. Having said that, there's not a mandate for every supplier

to move to a 2D barcode, they could keep that UPC only on

there if they want to. They're missing out on some value. But I

just want to be clear about that. And the and then the

suppliers are, they can move to and migrate to 2D at whatever

speed they want. They can have co located barcodes and then

drop the one D, the 1D barcode. The 2027 date is intended to say

all retailers should have the capability to read a 2D barcode

and the instance is that that's the only thing on there. That's

our sunrise date, we know there still be a transition because

not everybody's got those optical scanners, not

everybody's got those firmware. So we anticipate a transition

period. But that's really kind of relationship dependent as

well. So that's, that's where the suppliers on the retail side

it really is working with for scanner manufacturers and

ensuring that they've got the right firmware upgrade and that

their scanners can take that firmware upgrade and there's

some older ones, but most of them as long as their optical

will be able to do that. And, and go be an only take to G 10.

So it's really a matter of working with our scanner

manufacturers. Again, for the technology providers, we have

been working with this scanner manufacturers and then next up

it's work with the work with your, your your host system to

do all of the cool things that you want to do that are made

possible with this additional data you can get from the

barcode.

Gotcha. So when I started this out, I heard confusion over

sunrise 2027 and sunset 2027. We are not sunsetting the 1D

barcode and 2027 we are enabling the 2D barcodes so it's a

sunrise 2O27 so that's how I remember it. That's one question

I got from somebody which is okay, over this 2D barcode. That

looks like a QR code. What's the difference between a 2D barcode

and a QR code?

It's not a QR code is one form of it of a two

dimensional barcode. The other form that you see to the right

there is a data matrix code and you can see just a slight nuance

and it's got a tiny little fraction of a smaller footprint

there. You can put a GS1 digital link into either of these, Mike,

the difference is, and and the difference. The main difference

is the QR code can be read by any mobile device and the mobile

phone. The data matrix can only be read by Android devices.

Gotcha. That data matrix, though comes in super handy. And

there's another syntax that you can put into that data matrix,

which is a, we call it GS1 element string. So it's just a

bunch of numbers. And that also compresses the size of it. And

that is useful for things and and regulatory driven, things

like pharmaceuticals. And so and the in the pharmaceutical world,

it is it the regulation is that you have to serialize your

product, and you have to use a 2D data carrier, and it should

be a GS1 element string. So we make a we ensure that those are

part of our 2D conversation. But you really got to go what use

case I'm not trying to solve for to know which barcode you use,

there's a regulatory requirement, pick the one that's

that. If you're really trying to enable a number of things, QR

code is really the one that's most accessible both to the

consumer and the business. Perfect,

perfect. So we had a question set. And I think we've

already answered this, can you throw more light on how a 2D

barcode RFID and serialization can all work collectively? I

think we answered that one. But take one more shot, just to make

sure you can

Or you can Mike, your we can answer each other's

sentences, but really, what the RFID it allows for non line of

sight inventory capture, it requires serialization. So

you've got a serialized G 10 in that instance, and really what

you're doing with the 2D code is replicating that data that

serialized G 10, and a 2D code, but now allowing for consumer

interaction with that, because I can read that with my mobile

phone. And additionally, I can extract the G 10. From that a

point of sale and serve that use case. And then I can if, if, if

it's appropriate, again, I can do some inventory management on

shelf availability, as well. So that's, that's really the it's

the difference between the two is really the capability of the

technologies, but it's really getting to being able to

identify something in a serialized level.

Yeah, so so 2D barcode or an RFID tag can have

a G 10, which is a UPC, in essence, a serialized, which

makes it unique across the industry, and then other data

attributes, right? Those are all defined by GS1, that data can be

encoded in an RFID tag, it can also be represented in a 2D

barcode, the only thing I would say is whatever you do, make

sure the data that's in the RFID tag encoded by the reader of

that RFID tag in that tag matches what's actually on the

package. Because otherwise, the sins will be well, this one cup

is really two cups, and it's really, really not

That's true

So here's a big question. Eric's got a question.

I think, and this is really definitely a question for you

because I don't have I don't know the answer to this

I knew the question. You said you wouldn't

stop me.

Well maybe I'm going to stop you. That's okay.

Because I don't know the answer to this question. What and you

could say you can call the fifth and say I don't know what's the

latest on the adoption of differences and convergence of

UNS PSC don't even sure what that is. And the GS1 GPC which

would have the greatest impact on on shelf availability and how

do you see generative AI impacting product classification

codes and tariffs, if this is the final exam, Gina I'm

flunking the class just so you know.

I gotta think about that second part as far as

product classification and AI are concerned, but I would say

that that UNS PSC is actually it's a classification system

that we manage in the in the US and our healthcare industry at

GS1 U.S. our healthcare industry, leverages it for a

different set a completely different set of use cases in

payments and other types of things. Our global product

classification system is is how we classify products for the

purposes of master data sharing and whatnot. So he Eric's right,

there is this question, I have this question when, why are

these two things different and why are they converging? That

all sits within my team? So for more to come on that. I do think

product classification and product master data is it is

kind of as well as things become more prolific and digitization

and and All of that there's that we got this cool technologies

Mike for barcodes and RFID, and sensing and stuff, but when you

really want to serve up stuff, information to consumers that

master data better be good. And classification becomes super

important in that regard. And so that is another strong focus

that we'll be having. I can't answer this question

specifically on when all these things will happen. But they're

good questions, Eric.

His response? Lol. He's he's really proud of the

fact that he's stumped the panel both him and I didn't understand

He didn't stump be but I have some of the same

questions

I tell you. I'll tell you another one. The unique

serial number also plays out. We never talked about this very

much. But it's the whole concept of product identification. What

does that mean? Okay, well, if I'm Nike, and I spent all that

money on that marketing swoosh, right? I don't want somebody

making a pair of shoes would put it in a Nike swoosh on it and

selling it for half of what I should be selling it for. That

destroys the credibility of my brand. So in the future, if Nike

actually uses a unique serial number using RFID, or TBR code,

they can tell retailers, these are unique barcodes, serial

number combinations, SG 10s, if you will, that are legitimate

Nike products. If you have other Nike products in your system

that doesn't have that. They're not true. Same with

pharmaceuticals, right? I can promise you that this

pharmaceutical items. I know John Worthen from he's got his

own company. Now looking at the pharmaceutical industry, this is

a huge opportunity to make sure that the pharmacy is actually

delivering product customers that are where they came from

the manufacturers. Any other idea any other concepts that

that would be helpful? The examples that that would be?

Yeah, I mean, that's all great examples. And

we talked forever, like since the dawn of RFID. Technology.

Wow, you're at serialized level that could prevent

counterfeiting. Yeah. And I went down this road a few years ago

and discovered blockchain as as as a tool in the toolbox for

anti counterfeiting. It's so serialization and potential,

actually, that there are other technologies that allow you to

cryptographically secure and share in a decentralized way

whether or not this number is authentic, that we are exploring

as part of our innovation arm as because people can get more and

more, the more sophisticated the technology, the more

sophisticated the folks get. It just keeps evolving. Right? On,

on how to how to help solve for some of those things, but

serialization as a first step, for sure.

Yep well, and to do a shameless plug, we don't have

time to go into this now. But one of the things that people

have said, well, I'm going from a UPC 12345. And I've got 1000

of them. Do I now have 1000 individual records for each one

of those? That's a massive amount of data. How do you do

that? And you guys have developed a platform called

EPCIS, which is a standard in place to allow that to be shared

amongst trading partners. Where can people go to get more

information on that? Because I think it's a powerful set of

tools that was developed years ago, that people are just now

saying, Boy, that would really be helpful. If we knew more

about Gina, you're the person. And yeah,

I was the facilitator of the development

of of that standard with one of my dearest friends who's not

here, here with us anymore, Ken trab, and it was 2007. Mike wow,

I always tell the story that it's a good thing that my job

doesn't you know, that I personally don't require instant

gratification and my job for fielding any value because it

never comes. But yeah, EPCIS is a standard. It's an Interface

Standard really, that allows you to capture and share event data

is how we describe it, the what, where, when, why, who have a

movement in the supply chain that allows you to capture and

share that. And you can put that in any play. You can use that

internally within your own organization. But then the point

of it was to be able to you Mike at whatever Mike's grocery store

to be able to get information from me, Gina manufacturer, and

you have an SAP system and I have an IBM system but we're

still sharing that event information because it's

implemented based on the EPCIs

but Gina I thought that's what EDI was for.

That great question. Great point. EDI we

categorize EDI as those real transactional type of things.

And listen, an ASN is an advanced shipping notice it

EPCIS has a shipping event. So why aren't those the same? I

mean, but EDI is kind of a push, right? It's not this query

response type of thing. And EDI also doesn't have the ability to

capture transmit things like transformation events, and a

slew of other different types of events that since the advent of

EDI, which is also not implemented across everyplace

EPCIS is what either but still, you can skip past some of these,

this is some of the details of the different 2D codes that we

can just share with the audience afterwards. But anyway, um

so that so this this side I put up there because

people were asking, What was the difference? So this is a UPC

kind of playing UPC. This is the GS1 element strain with the

attribute data. And this is the GS1 digital link. So we'll make

these slides available as part of the podcast. But I think

that's important for people to kind of understand. Gina is

there anything else that we're missing. What questions have I

not asked you that I should have? That's one of my favorite

question, which is, I wish he would have asked me this

question because I got the great answer for what do you want

people to know that I haven't asked you already?

At the time is now that when should people get

started? Now? What did they just get started doing? I would say

moving to 2D takes a strategy on on with packed with a number of

different parts of your organization, packaging,

marketing, but also supply chain on the retail side, listen,

sometimes I get this question, Mike. Well, what's in it for me?

I'm a retailer and I my POS system works today? Why do I

want to do this firmware upgrade and that sort of thing. But a

lot of retailers are also brands, if they've got private

label, they can they can benefit from all of the benefits the

supplier has with their brands, that but also there are things

that that retailer can get within their applications and

whatnot, we just need to ensure that that doesn't slow down or

break what happens when a sale and and I think I've mentioned

some of those advanced use cases on expiry management, recall

management and not insuring that sort of thing to the consumer.

So I would just say to start to get the thought around that. And

we are actively working with retailers and suppliers on

validating our our learnings from the University of Memphis

lab who tested with us in real world environments, and we

shamelessly solicit folks who would like to get involved in

any sort of pilot activity to validate those findings. But

listen, we've done it a few times we know that this will

work. And so now it's about planning or how do we all get to

2027?

Awesome. Well, to me, 2020 I'm being a smart aleck

for a minute. 20 It's not even 2024 Yeah, we got plenty of time

for that. Gina. Don't we have plenty of time? Why? What's

what's the reason we have to get involved with this?

2027 is next week, Mike come on

This is Y2K all over again. Yeah, exactly. You

didn't. You didn't start like the week before Y2K. Right.

And really, to be honest with you, I have

confidence that we'll see some folks ready and able to scan 2D

barcodes at point of sale. Well before 2027. My My goal is to

have someone there before to celebrate our 50th anniversary

of the first scan the UPC, but that takes industry. And so

we've got to continue to sell the value and educate and I

appreciate the opportunity to do that today.

Absolutely. My only push for the industry is this is

not something that you want to wait number one. The first is

education, which which you're actually getting. The question

is do you want to implement this to being compliant with a new

industry standard? Or do you want to be the first or one of

the first to take advantage of that new capability to drive

your business and your customer satisfaction? I'd want to be the

second group I want to be I want to take advantage of it. I don't

want to just do it because I have to do it. I'm asked to do

it. It's a compliance thing. This has a real breakthrough.

The day where we have unique serialized SG tons and every

product will be breakthrough in terms of where we are it'll be

as big a breakthrough as moving from the old price sticker to a

UPC where you scan this, this has that kind of capability and

potential breakthrough that So Gina, thank you so much

extremely helpful. really do appreciate it. We'll have to

have you back to talk a little bit more about EPCIS. Because I

think that's another well well, well worth the time, people's

time to really understand that. I think it's still out there.

Well, that's EDI, I don't need that. But I think that's another

taking advantage of the serialized data, leveraging

something like EPCIS has been really, really great. I've

enjoyed working with you over the years. You've done a great

job today explaining to our audience and I really do

appreciate it.

Well, thanks for having me as best part of my day

was really fun, Mike, thanks.

All right. Take care everybody. Bye