Get ready for a deep dive into the future of audio with Steve Goldstein, founder of Amplifi Media and one of the most experienced voices in podcasting today. In this episode, Steve uncovers how the landscape of radio, TV, and print is shifting dramatically as on-demand platforms take center stage. Discover why younger audiences are moving away from traditional media and how you can adapt to capture their attention.

Steve shares why being on multiple platforms is no longer optional and gives real-world examples—like how an episode of SNL exploded from 8 million TV viewers to over 200 million views on social media clips. Learn why "time-shifted audio"

is crucial for keeping your listeners engaged and why repurposing radio content into podcasts needs a smarter approach.

Whether you’re a broadcaster, podcaster, or simply passionate about audio’s future, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you evolve, adapt, and thrive in this rapidly changing landscape. Hit play to learn how to stay ahead of the curve, reach new audiences, and make the most of your content in a fast-evolving media world.

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YouTube is the second largest television network, if

2

you want to view that as a network.

3

It's massive.

4

And that's where so much of

media is being consumed today.

5

So when we talk about tweaking for

the younger generation, if you are

6

not on other platforms, I don't think

you can win place or show in the game.

7

In other words, a big tower out in the

field is not going to get the show.

8

Job done,

9

VO: BRANDwidth on Demand.

10

Rebooting radio with a different

take on all radio can be.

11

Steve Goldstein: I think radio has

waited too long to deal with on demand

12

strategies in a significant way, and

I wrote a piece recently highlighting

13

the aging of the linear media business.

14

But what I made clear was that

podcasting is the new talk radio.

15

And I mean that with all sincerity, and

I mean it a little bit with the shock

16

value too, that if you don't build out

the next generation, then you are sorry.

17

AM radio or your telephone booths.

18

You're just not as important.

19

VO: Now your guides through the

mediamorphosis, David Martin and

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author of the book BRANDwidth,

media branding coach Kipper McGee.

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Dave Martin: Hey kids, this time we're

deep diving into the world of on demand

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audio and podcasting multi platform audio.

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That's right.

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With over three decades of experience,

our guest has been a pivotal figure

25

in transforming the audio landscape.

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He's driven innovation and growth

at major broadcasting companies,

27

including one where he was co-founder

and Executive VP, Saga Communications.

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And by the way, a station guy at a

legendary station, WABC in New York.

29

His expertise in content creation and

digital strategy has guided brands

30

through the shift from traditional

broadcasting to digital audio.

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Leading a firm known for its strategic

insights and creative solutions, he's

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a sought after speaker and thought

leader shaping the future of audio.

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BRANDwidth on Demand is proud

to welcome the founder of

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Amplifi Media, Steve Goldstein.

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Kipper McGee: Hey, Steve.

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Steve Goldstein: This is a lovely intro.

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Thank you very much.

38

Now the pressure is on, I guess.

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Well, I'm not so sure about

that, but I do know you will

40

have something to say on this.

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With TV and print audiences aging, what

do these demographic shifts mean for

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the future of radio and podcasting done

by radio stations or personalities?

43

Well, so I think you have a combination

of things occurring at the same time.

44

You have the aging of linear media cable

news is at 70 and primetime TV, primetime

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TV, which was sold as an 18 to 49 medium.

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The average is now 65

for linear primetime TV.

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Newspaper, if still getting one, is 60.

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Talk radio is at 58.

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And that's a kind number because

Nielsen combines sports talk,

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which is a lower demo, then news

talk, which is a higher demo.

51

So you can extrapolate out what that 58

might be without the sports talk stations.

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That is not a good looking number.

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And then you have podcasts.

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Podcasts are checking in 30 years younger.

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34 is the median age.

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Dave Martin: Wow.

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And how are the media habits

of that younger generation

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changing the game, Steve?

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What can radio broadcasters do

to tweak their engagement and

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content to attract these listeners?

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Steve Goldstein: Yeah, if only it were

a tweak, Dave, I think it's, I think

62

it's way more systemic than a tweak.

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And so, look, the generations, the

younger generations specifically

64

are using content differently.

65

You know, you don't have to be a

nuclear scientist to know that,

66

TikTok, Instagram, things like that are

significant factors, but so is YouTube.

67

YouTube is the second largest

television network, if you

68

want View that as a network.

69

It's massive and that's where so much

of media is being consumed today.

70

So when we talk about tweaking for

the younger generation, if you are

71

not on other platforms, I don't think

you can win place or show in the game.

72

In other words, a big tower out in the

field is not going to get the job done.

73

And I do think about it

through the same eyes of TV.

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The local TV station is under

tremendous pressure for the same

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demographic reasons I just recited.

76

They are using streaming.

77

They are using YouTube.

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All to reach the audience where they are.

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And here's an example.

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SNL in the middle of April, the

highest rated episode of the year

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on SNL was with Ryan Gosling and it

did 8 million views in linear TV.

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Meaning that 8 million people watched

it either on Saturday night or delayed

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it and watched it at another time.

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But 46 million people watched

clips of the show on YouTube.

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170 million people.

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Watched clips on Instagram,

TikTok, or wherever.

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So, what they've learned is that

they must be multi platform.

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And I think the same thing holds true

for broadcasters, radio broadcasters.

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So I, I do not think it's a tweak.

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Podcasting is a necessary tool.

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Streaming is a necessary tool.

92

I think you need to get out from

under the notion that people are just

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going to listen to you on a radio.

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Yeah, we're still seeing that it's down

from 93 percent for a long time, but

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now it's like 80 something percent of

people listen to radio once a week or so.

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On that note, is there a way that

radio broadcasters can utilize those

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strategies that make a difference?

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Podcasting attractive to advertisers

so they can compete with things like

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you mentioned YouTube and TikTok.

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Is there a way they can do that?

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Yeah, I think so.

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I really do.

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I think radio has underplayed the

potential of time shifted audio.

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When I started Amplifi, which

believe it or not, Kipper,

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is nine and a half years ago.

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Kipper McGee: Wow.

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Dave Martin: Wow.

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Steve Goldstein: And a lot of

weird eye rolls at the time.

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What's this guy doing?

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In the nine and a half years, I

would say seven or eight of them, I

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thought time shifted audio was like

the Rodney Dangerfield of podcasting.

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Nobody wanted to touch it.

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Today, I feel very differently about it.

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I think it's a significant retention

strategy that is totally underutilized

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by radio, and I will give you

a frightening example of this.

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So we took a market, a

large market, top 20 market.

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And we took the top seven morning shows.

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Okay.

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So this is not the, screwed up

stations, the ones that are a mess.

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This is the top in the market.

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And we looked at listening patterns.

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And what we saw was that just

under 60 percent were listening to

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the morning show one day a week.

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That's it one day a week.

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And only.

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18 percent more were

listening two days a week.

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So only 18 percent two days a week.

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That's frightening.

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That's systemic.

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That suggests that the business model is

just broken and the audience has already

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said, Hey, I'm doing other things.

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And so if they happen to like your

morning show, shouldn't you think

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about strategies to help them?

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In offering that content on other

platforms so that they can consume it

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in other ways because they've already

voted and said, Hey, you know what?

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We're not around enough.

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I mean, maybe they're not

commuting as often as they used to.

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Maybe they have other

shows that they like.

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I don't know, but I do know that

taking a morning show and shoving

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three hours of it into a podcast is a

really bad idea and it's not working.

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Kipper McGee: So, shifting gears a

little bit, what are the relative

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pros and cons of using the TLR,

total line reporting, compared to

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those who separate the streaming

signal from the on air broadcast?

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And do you need to be a certain size

organization to have it make sense,

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or how do you see that whole world?

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Steve Goldstein: Yeah, I

think that's very bespoke.

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I think it's a really good question, too.

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So, streaming is moving north.

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There's a lot more streaming going

on, depending on the format, depending

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on the size of the radio station.

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It could be 12%, 15%.

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It could be as high as 20 percent of

the audience listening via streaming.

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So, that's no longer a

little rounding error.

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, that means those little Alexa speakers

in everybody's home are radios.

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And so that's pretty exciting.

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So that's great.

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So that would suggest that combining those

numbers together for TLR would be good.

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And the podcasting part of that

is, let's say they do listen to a

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signature bit of the morning show and

they listen to it within 24 hours.

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That's also accretive.

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And so if you combine those things and

I'm just making up this number, let's

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say it's 20, 25 percent of the listening.

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That's a big number.

164

I mean, all of a sudden pay attention.

165

There's a, there's an opportunity here.

166

So I don't think.

167

The TLR is a problem.

168

I think it's an asset in most markets,

but I do think that there are many

169

scenarios in which people are making

more money by separating out the

170

opportunity of selling the stream

and the podcast than combining it.

171

So I do think, and I've worked

with broadcasters who in their same

172

organization will make that strategy a

bit more bespoke, depending on the size

173

of the market or the size of the station.

174

But I love the idea that

they're thinking about it.

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Dave Martin: How do you see a AI changing

the future of podcasting, broadcasting,

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audio, and what ethical issues should

creators of both consider to balance

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AI's benefits with maintaining genuine

human connections with their audience?

178

Steve Goldstein: Isn't to say,

I think it'd be like NFTs and

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it'll just be gone in a year.

180

Uh,

181

I'm afraid not.

182

I, I think this is a real thing.

183

So it depends what media

we're talking about.

184

I am amazed at how good

the audio is so fast.

185

I would not have guessed that there

would be such great intonation and

186

things of that nature in audio.

187

And yet it is.

188

It is here.

189

I do think that the audience

is really sharp and I do think

190

certainly on the podcast side, that

authenticity makes a difference.

191

I think that broadcasters or any audio

creator will make a mistake thinking that.

192

They can use AI as the surrogate.

193

But I also think that it's a great

tool for production and for, the

194

back office sort of stuff to improve

workflow and things like that.

195

So, in one place I worry about

it a lot and the other, I

196

recommend it often, but it is.

197

Changing so fast.

198

If we had had this conversation six

months ago, I'm not sure we would

199

have found audio samples that sound

as good as what we hear today.

200

So it is moving rapidly.

201

Kipper McGee: Yeah, and it's kind

of on a hockey stick trajectory.

202

It looks like.

203

Steve Goldstein: Yeah,

and the legal issues.

204

Dave, you asked about the legal issues.

205

That is such a Pandora's box.

206

There's so much going on there.

207

And I think we'll see more.

208

I read this morning that Drake fake

song that they were suing the record

209

companies and producers of it.

210

I mean, you're going to

see a lot of that, right?

211

It just makes sense that people are

gearing up trying to figure out how

212

to protect their copyrighted material.

213

And you see it on the graphics.

214

You see it with pictures and watermarking.

215

I think we're going to see

audio watermarking as well.

216

I've had the conversation with Dan Granger

and Stu Redvine over at Oxford Road and

217

they're an agency that does bespoke audio,

about how to watermark original audio.

218

I think it's a conversation.

219

Dave Martin: And intellectual

property is going to be a very

220

important issue going forward.

221

It really is.

222

Steve Goldstein: And I have a brother

in law who is in that business

223

has been it's he's moving to a

couple of record years, I think.

224

Dave Martin: Oh, no doubt about it.

225

Kipper McGee: Business is very good.

226

So looking forward, opening your

crystal ball app on your phone.

227

What key factors do you think are going

to really be shaping the future of

228

podcasting in the next five, 10 years?

229

Steve Goldstein: So I think when

we're talking about podcasting,

230

we're talking about a medium that

is growing and changing rapidly.

231

Again, I started my

business nine years ago.

232

There was $250,000 of

revenue in the business.

233

This year there'll be over 2 billion.

234

So it's still small, especially compared

to commercial radio, saying but it is

235

growing rapidly just as on demand video.

236

Has grown.

237

This is the way people will expect

to find and listen to audio.

238

And when I think about it in terms

of radio, and here we are doing this

239

radio oriented podcast, I draw your

attention to the top 50 podcasts.

240

On Apple podcasts or Spotify,

it doesn't really matter, and

241

the diversity of topics.

242

Out of the top 50, only

eight are political.

243

About four are true crime and seven

are comedy, business and technologies

244

in their sports, self improvement.

245

There are five titles on self improvement.

246

My point here is that diversity of

topics in podcasting is so great.

247

And it suggests a desire to

listen to things that go way

248

beyond conservative talk radio.

249

They want to be entertained.

250

They want to be informed.

251

And there's also a lot

of new personalities.

252

And that's something we haven't

seen in the radio business in

253

forever is investment in new voices.

254

And it is happening in podcasting.

255

That is where the experimentation occurs.

256

And I can tell you for sure that the

mortality rate in podcasting is not good.

257

Most podcasts end up in the

recycle chute, but if you make it.

258

And if you are making it, it is

because you are, differentiated and

259

you're bringing fresh content on

topics that people are interested in.

260

There are topics like self

improvement with Kuberman Labs that

261

does extraordinarily well and has

since the beginning of the pandemic.

262

And there's Alex Cooper, who's talking

about, younger, more millennial,

263

And younger than that issues.

264

There's a great diversity of voices

and I think that's what's going

265

to drive podcasting in the future.

266

Dave Martin: No doubt about it, Steve.

267

We can all learn something

from Steve Goldstein, the

268

Amplify Media founder and CEO.

269

Hey, got a suggestion

or a guest or a topic.

270

We're all ears.

271

Drop us an email at show

at BRANDwidth on Demand.

272

com or reach out on social

BRANDwidthPLUS on Instagram.

273

Facebook and X.

274

BRANDwidth plus together we can

make this podcast even more epic.

275

Kipper McGee: So if you're

new to the podcast, awesome.

276

Just don't forget to smash the follow

button on your favorite podcast app.

277

And if you've been with us for

a while, please spread the love,

278

tell friend BRANDwidth on Demand.

279

We're available wherever

better podcasts are found.

280

And with over 200 episodes,

we're here to help you master

281

the art of audio like a pro.

282

Dave Martin: Coming up, Steve

talks to us about what trends

283

and opportunities he sees in time

shifting your audio to on demand.

284

Sponsor: MUSICMASTER (musicmaster.com):

Yeah, we have a lot going on

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VO: Opportunities hidden in plain sight.

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BRANDwidth on Demand.

316

Dave Martin: We are here with

the founder and CEO of Amplify

317

media, Steve Goldstein, Steve.

318

One question that many

stations are still debating.

319

Are the merits of utilizing podcasting

for time shifting, to make the radio

320

station content available on demand.

321

What trends and opportunities

are you seeing in this area?

322

Steve Goldstein: So let's go back to

something we talked about earlier.

323

I think the TV model is a really

good one for radio broadcasters.

324

I think bite sized content is the win.

325

It's not the long form.

326

No one listened to your radio

show for three and a half hours.

327

They're not going to listen to your

podcast for three and a half hours,

328

but they might listen to four or

eight minutes that were really great.

329

And, sad to say, but you guys know you've

been around doing this for a long time.

330

There's.

331

three levels of content.

332

There's A level B level and C level.

333

And most content is in that C and B level.

334

And the great moments are A level.

335

And those are the moments that you should

be making available to listeners again,

336

for retention, but also for growth.

337

These are two very different strategies

and we do work with radio clients on this.

338

I think that there needs to be way

more rigor and focus and thought placed

339

into it as opposed to, yeah, we made

a clip out of the thing and we made

340

it into an MP3 and we published it.

341

I don't think it's as easy as that.

342

Kipper McGee: And one thing, it just

seems to me looking at it, A news

343

talk radio station, one of the things

you would think that people are

344

coming to them for is information.

345

Yet, many of them do top of the

hour and that's it, and then

346

the rest is network and spots.

347

Wouldn't it make sense for more news

talk or even sports stations to do a

348

recap of that as a podcast and keep it

there till the next one was recorded?

349

Steve Goldstein: Well, you you see that

in public radio the NPR hourly news

350

is their top podcast You see that at

the BBC BBC is the hourly newscast.

351

So what does that tell you?

352

It tells you that it's vital product,

but not everybody's going to listen

353

to it at the top of the hour.

354

That's just old school thinking.

355

They may get to it at 25 minutes

after the hour or when and

356

when they get into the car.

357

That's what on demand is all about.

358

And I don't think.

359

I don't think Linear can win any

longer, even though they may do a great

360

sportscast at a quarter after the hour.

361

It doesn't mean people are

jumping in to their car at a

362

quarter after to listen to it.

363

Dave Martin: No, Linear's

the world of live sports now.

364

That's about it.

365

And there's nothing wrong with that.

366

That's a fantastic, but not at all, but

it is not the only way to reach people.

367

Very good.

368

I think any final word, any

final words of wisdom, Mr.

369

Goldstein, I think radio has waited

too long to deal with on demand

370

strategies in a significant way.

371

And I wrote a piece recently highlighting

the aging of the linear media business.

372

But what I made clear was that

podcasting is the new talk radio.

373

And I mean that with all sincerity, and

I mean it a little bit with the shock

374

value too, that if you don't build out

the next generation, then you are sorry.

375

AM radio or your telephone booths.

376

You're just not as important.

377

Our thanks to the always

insightful Steve Goldstein.

378

Links to his blog, his website,

and more all in the show notes.

379

Just scroll down on your phone.

380

Kipper McGee: As always, our

thanks to exec producer Cindy Huber

381

for putting this all together.

382

And coming up next.

383

Thee Kelly Ford!: Hey there, it's Thee

Kelly Ford, host of Backstage Country

384

on In 80 Cities, around this great

country of ours, and afternoon hoston

385

1 0 3.1, the Wolf in Long Island.

386

Would you like to learn how to lose

weight, how to have better sex, and how

387

to earn $10,000 in less than three months?

388

None of that I can tell you, but we will

have fun with Kipper and Dave coming up

389

next episode of BRANDwidth On Demand.

390

Dave Martin: That's a wrap, Kipper.

391

Want to get better?

392

Well, you need to seek out criticism.

393

Start asking people, Hey,

what am I doing wrong?

394

We'll talk about that in the

next One Minute Martinize.

395

You'll find it in the show

notes at brandwithondemand.

396

dot com.

397

I'm Dave Martin.

398

And I'm Kipper McGee.

399

Stay creative and let

your BRANDwidth shine.