Dear Listener, do negative thoughts about your body or your partner’s body stop you from building a satisfying love life?

If so, you won’t want to miss our conversation with special guest Jessi Kneeland, a renowned body image coach, author of Body Neutral: A Revolutionary Guide to Overcoming Body Image Issues, and host of the podcast This Is (Not) About Your Body.

This illuminating discussion explores how rigid beauty standards sabotage romantic relationships.

First, we tackle the common phenomenon of avoiding dating entirely due to negative body image and how body neutrality can help.

Next, Jessi provides thoughtful insights on a taboo topic – physical dealbreakers in dating.  They discuss ways to suss out true dealbreakers versus those rooted in rigid beauty standards and psychological defenses. We discuss how prioritizing certain physical traits can significantly narrow one's dating pool,  the implications of such choices, and what to do about it.

Lastly, Jessi offers advice for couples in which one partner reports reduced attraction in response to their partner’s appearance changing, e.g., after gaining weight or aging. Jessi offers a surprising take on how to unpack these complex emotional terrains so that couples can maintain attraction over the long haul.

Key Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

02:42 - What is body neutrality and why is it important?

06:49 - How do you date with body image issues?

23:06 - “I feel badly about this, but I’m just not attracted to people who…”

41:05 - What would you say to couples where one partner “loses attraction” because their partner’s body has changed?

Resources and links

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Connect with Jessi Kneeland

https://www.jessikneeland.com/

Instagram: @jessikneeland

Tiktok: @jessikneeland

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/JessiKneeland

Jessi’s podcast: This is (Not) About Your Body

Body Neutral: A Revolutionary Guide to Overcoming Body Image Issues by Jessi Kneeland

To get more free dating, relationship, and social anxiety advice, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter to sign up for – you guessed it – our newsletter!

Josh Van Vliet: Hello and

welcome dear listener.

2

A quick note before we start the

show, we had a technical glitch

3

with our usual recording software

on the day that we recorded this

4

interview with Jessi Kneeland.

5

So you'll hear that our audio doesn't

sound quite as nice as normal,

6

but it's a wonderful conversation

with some, , some gems in it.

7

So, please excuse the audio

quality and, uh, we hope you enjoy.

8

Jessica Engle: From the Relationship

Center, I'm psychotherapist, couples

9

counselor, and dating coach Jessica

Engle, and this is I Love You Too,

10

a show about how to create and

sustain meaningful relationships.

11

Josh Van Vliet: I'm dating and

relationship coach Josh Van Vliet.

12

On today's episode, we're going to talk

about body image and relationships with

13

our very special guest, Jessi Kneeland.

14

We're so happy you're here, and

please remember that this show is

15

not a substitute for a relationship

with a licensed mental health

16

professional.

17

Welcome, welcome, dear

listener, and welcome, Jessi.

18

We are so thrilled to

have you joining us today.

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For those of you, yeah, for those

of you who don't know, Jessi, Jessi

20

Kneeland is a writer speaker and coach

on a mission to help folks escape

21

suffering caused by body image issues

through the pursuit of body neutrality.

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And Jessi is the author of Body Neutral,

A Revolutionary Guide to Overcoming Body

23

Image Issues, as well as the host of

the podcast This Is Not About Your Body.

24

And also just a delightful human.

25

It's been so fun to connect with

you, Jessi, uh, in our prep for

26

this and listening to your work

and reading some of your work.

27

It's been really, really fun.

28

So I'm really glad that we get to share

your wisdom with, with our audience today.

29

Jessi Kneeland: That's so sweet.

30

Thank you.

31

Josh Van Vliet: Is there anything

that you'd like to share about who

32

you are, what you do, just to kind

of introduce yourself to folks?

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Jessi Kneeland: I mean,

you covered the basics.

34

I, uh, I'm a body image coach and

I am lately obsessing over, uh,

35

how to help people break free from

internalized oppression, all of

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the many forms that that can take.

37

And often the, the overlap there with

patriarchy and body image issues.

38

So Yeah, that's where my, my head

has been at lately, but everything

39

else you said pretty much covers it.

40

Josh Van Vliet: Beautiful.

41

Well, we're especially excited to

chat with you today about, as I

42

said, this intersection between,

uh, healthy relating and body image.

43

And there's so much that comes up at

this intersection that kind of gets in

44

the way of Making meaningful connections

and building healthy relationships.

45

And so we're gonna be

diving in with that today.

46

Yeah.

47

Yeah.

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Jess,

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Jessica Engle: well, I just wanna see

if we can start out, I think a lot

50

of people have probably heard about

body positivity and body neutrality

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is probably a newer term for them.

52

And so I thought we might just start

out by having you kind of set the table

53

in terms of what is body neutrality

and, and why is that even helpful?

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Jessi Kneeland: Yeah, definitely.

55

So, when I first heard the term, it was

sort of posed as like an alternative,

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sort of like a resting place between

hating your body and loving your body

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if that felt like a lot of pressure.

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And, uh, it felt a little bit

more realistic and accessible for

59

people, but it really was a, at the

time, kind of just like a, I don't

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know, like an in between place.

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It didn't have it, it

wasn't super fleshed out.

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In the way that I have approached it

and it has evolved and developed in my

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work, I now think of it as the ability

to engage with and view your body and

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other people's bodies without the added

meaning that we learn to associate with.

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different shapes and sizes

and appearances of bodies.

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So, uh, we're constantly adding meaning.

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That meaning is usually what makes

you hate your body or sometimes love

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your body and feel super confident.

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Both of those things are

problematic in their own right.

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To me, the body neutrality is not just a

resting place, although absolutely that

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can be what gets people in the door.

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It's about actually being able to view

it accurately without that interpretation

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and meaning sort of being layered on top.

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Jessica Engle: I love that.

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And so what would be an example of,

of meaning somebody might ascribe to

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their body or to another person's body?

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Jessi Kneeland: Oh God, uh, like

a super common example would be

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that if you're fat, you're lazy.

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Or like sort of have some, some

kind of character flaw, you're,

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you're a terrible person somehow

because you haven't figured out how

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to, you know, live your life right.

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And it just means this really, really

negative stuff about you based on one

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factor, which would be just body size.

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Jessica Engle: I'm so excited to talk

to you about this as it relates to

85

relationships, because something that

I see often with the clients that we're

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working with who are looking for their

partner or people who are partnered.

87

Is how The way they think about their

bodies or other people's bodies stops

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them from enjoying the relationships

that they're in or being open to lots

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of different kinds of connections.

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And so I'm curious in the work that you've

done, and this is a broad question, so

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go with it where you want, like what

kinds of shifts do you see in people's

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relationships when they start to sort

of walk the body neutrality path and

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kind of pull away those, those meanings?

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Uh, about people's bodies

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Jessi Kneeland: is a huge question

because it kind of depends on

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what, how their meaning was

impacting them in the first place.

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But I would say like a pretty good

across the board would be relationships

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improve because they start to feel more.

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worthy as a human as opposed to, um,

because when you have all this meaning

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attached to all of these things you're

constantly like imagining that your

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worth kind of goes up and down and that

impacts how you show up in relationships

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because you're trying to like earn

getting your needs met by providing

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them with something they like or want

you know it's it just gets gets in the

104

way of authenticity so much so pretty

much no matter what the meaning was.

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It, it makes it easier to be real

with the person in front of you.

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I also think a lot of people's body

image issues come from a desire to like,

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control stuff that's not controllable.

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Um, and so as they let go of that, as

they sort of acknowledge and release that

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fantasy that, that they can control these

things or be so perfect that they'll

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never be rejected or, you know, whatever

it might be, they learn to tolerate

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their own feelings, which is again,

just going to make every relationship

112

smoother, more authentic, more intimate.

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Jessica Engle: I love that.

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Well, I think that leads

beautifully into our next section.

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Josh, where do you want to go here?

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Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, I mean, let's, let's

start with dating because we work with

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a lot of folks around dating and some

portion of our, the folks who come to us

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avoid dating because of body image issues.

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And so I'm curious, what's your take

Jessi, on how do you, how do you approach

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dating or how do you engage with dating?

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Uh, If you've got body image issues,

which is like all of us basically, right?

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Like,

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Jessi Kneeland: it's such a hard one.

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And I think it's important just to start

by saying it's very understandable because

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when you've learned that, so the meaning

there could be anything, it could be super

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nuanced and complex, but at its basis,

it's like, you're not good enough to date

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that what your body Is, means something

basically makes you like undesirable on

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the market, or people won't love you, or

you know, any number of interpretations,

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but basically they're all you're just

not good enough, you don't deserve to

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do it, or find someone, or be loved.

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And that's an incredibly

objectifying stance.

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The idea that we are choosing each

other based exclusively on our

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body shape or size or appearance.

134

We don't think about what a terrible and

mean thought that is or if, you know, most

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people say, is that why you choose people?

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Like, is that what you're looking for?

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And they're like, oh my God, no, never.

138

Like, that's, you know, that's not what

I like or want or, or I'm looking for,

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but it's what I imagine everyone else is.

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And so it's an incredibly

lonely place to be.

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It's super, super isolating and scary

and shamey and hard and really common.

142

But I think that starting to

identify what that meaning is

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for any particular individual.

144

Really naming the story and then

challenging, and I always say like, um,

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just poking holes in the argument with,

with like, you know, sort of chipping

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away at it because I'm never going to just

convince someone, Oh yeah, you're fine.

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People will love you and want you.

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It's no problem.

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Like that's never going to convince

someone who feels that way.

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So instead we find ways to, to poke

holes in the argument that in fact

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this thing about how you look is it

makes you unchoosable, unlovable,

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unworthy for the dating world.

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Jessica Engle: I'm curious, uh, to dig

into that a little bit more, the poking

154

the holes in the argument because, you

know, I think that body image stuff

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around dating can, there's so many

negative messages we get in pop culture

156

from people in the dating pool, and it

can feel very easy to, I think for a lot

157

of people assert their usual narrative.

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So, for example if I'm a, uh, a curvy

woman of color, right, there are actual

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biases out there that are stopping that

person from actually getting matches

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or being treated respectfully, right?

161

And so, I'm curious when somebody who

comes from, marginalized groups comes

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to you and says like, no, the reality is

the world wants me to be thin and white.

163

Yeah.

164

How do you respond to that?

165

Jessi Kneeland: Well, uh, I'm going to

start by telling you a kind of funny

166

and kind of embarrassing story, which

is that I had only worked with women.

167

At the point that I started working

with an Asian man, and I tried to

168

do with him in this space what I had

been doing successfully with women

169

for years, and I was like, just get on

Tinder and start chatting with people.

170

It'll build your confidence and, you know,

start helping FearFace and Months went

171

by and there was no matches with whom

to practice chatting and I had to take a

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very humbling dive down the rabbit hole

of racism on dating apps and just sort of

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learning like Whoa, this is a this is a

literal barrier to even just what I was

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thinking of as a place to practice or

explore So that was many years ago now,

175

but it uh, it taught me a lot And it was

pretty shocking, I think, at the time.

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Um, but now, when I say, like, looking

at your body accurately, viewing these

177

things without the added meaning,

accurately includes acknowledging

178

reality, which includes living inside

of a system of oppression where, yeah,

179

your body absolutely might limit your

dating pool, it might limit your matches,

180

it might limit your opportunities.

181

I think the meaning, though,

that people ascribe to that fact,

182

which is true, is that it means

something about them, which is not.

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And that's where we

start to differentiate.

184

And honestly, when someone's in that

position, there's a lot of grief work to

185

go through a lot of times because it, it's

almost like empowering isn't quite the

186

right word, but there's something about

feeling like, well, if it's my fault and

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I can change it, then I'll have access.

188

It's like that, that fake fantasy of maybe

if I lose the weight, then I'll be a more

189

desirable match and this will be easier.

190

Um, and kind of accepting like,

actually, it's not my fault that

191

people are fatphobic, but it does

limit my options, so this is going to

192

be harder for me and that just hurts.

193

Josh Van Vliet: I think that's such

a brilliant distinction to make that.

194

Because I think one of the places

kind of personal development and, and

195

this kind of world can often go wrong

is so focused on the individual that

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it's like, it's all in your control.

197

It's all, it's all about what you're

thinking or what you're thinking about

198

yourself and ignoring the, the realities

of what's happening in the world and

199

what's just true about the conditions

that we're existing in and the Bye.

200

Bye.

201

Like you're saying that fantasy of,

well, if I, if I do think it's within my

202

control and I could just lose the weight

and that would change things, you know,

203

it's an under, it's like a, it's like a,

uh, a useful defense mechanism almost.

204

It gives us a sense of, of

power, but it's the wrong sense

205

of power because it's not real.

206

It doesn't actually, it's not going to

get us where we ultimately want to go.

207

So I love that you're

making that distinction.

208

Like, okay, there's truth here

about what the conditions are and.

209

The, the, the nuance here is that

doesn't mean anything about you.

210

We can make that distinction.

211

That's huge.

212

Jessi Kneeland: Yeah.

213

And along with the grief of just

acknowledging like, this is hard for me

214

and it hurts and it sucks and all of that

stuff, there's also a lot of times a lot

215

of important work to move through around

the anger, the anger at the injustice.

216

That is a system in which

something about your body makes

217

your opportunities less available.

218

But by getting angry at the system and

any people who upheld those systems or,

219

you know, used it against you in the

past, which most people in marginalized

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bodies have lots of those stories it

starts to shift the shame and it stops

221

being the story of I'm just not good

enough or I don't deserve better and

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it shifts into the right people will.

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like me for who I am and it may be

harder for me to find those people

224

because of this messed up system.

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Jessica Engle: I'm thinking about the

conversation you and I had on your

226

podcast, Jessi, about narcissistic

family systems and how for some people

227

who grow up with self absorbed parents,

they learn to take responsibility.

228

for everything.

229

And they don't have the emotional skill

set to grieve and to feel rightful rage

230

at people who are actually hurting them.

231

And so it sounds like part of the work

you're describing is we have to shift

232

out of that understandable defense,

as Josh was saying, and learn how

233

to, like, let our hearts be broken

in a different way and to feel bigly.

234

And To also with that, and this is

part of what I loved in listening to

235

your book was just part of what comes

with that is we also have to develop

236

new skills and face fears, right?

237

Because if it, if it's not that

there's something wrong with me,

238

there's a bunch of things to do, right?

239

There's like writing a profile and there's

It's going out on dates and feeling

240

awkward on dates and so many things.

241

Jessi Kneeland: And a

lot of internal work too.

242

If you've never learned discernment

or the ability to listen to your

243

intuition or that you have a right

to, uh, have your own desires and take

244

up space or advocate for your needs.

245

My God, there's so many skills that can

go into it, which is why sometimes when

246

people are like, well, what can I expect?

247

How long will this take?

248

I'm like, Really depends.

249

There's a lot to do.

250

As for some people, it is a very long

process and it's not just, okay, I

251

feel worthy now and it's all fine.

252

It's an ongoing commitment to learning

how to be in the world without those

253

fantasies kind of like protecting

slash hurting you, you know?

254

Jessica Engle: Yeah, it's interesting.

255

It strikes me that the work that

you do may be similar to the work

256

we do in that I remember when I

first started doing dating coaching.

257

I think I had this thought that it

was gonna be kind of like light work

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Jessi Kneeland: Right.

259

Jessica Engle: I can see that.

260

Yeah.

261

And the truth is like dating goes to

the, the, the darkest of the dark,

262

the deepest of the deep, you know,

and it's like, yeah, finding a partner

263

may be a, a limited time effort, but

all of the stuff that it kicks up is,

264

you know, probably goes back decades.

265

And it sounds like that's the

same for the work that you do.

266

It's like, yeah, it's body image, but

oh, it is so much more than body image.

267

Jessi Kneeland: I mean, I would say

that for most of, like, when I take

268

on a new client, we will rarely

spend more than like a few weeks

269

getting to something much deeper and

more interesting than body image.

270

And then stay there for like

a month before swinging back.

271

And they're kind of like, Oh yeah, I guess

I haven't thought about that in a while.

272

Or I haven't had like a, I

haven't been feeling insecure.

273

I haven't thought about it at all.

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I'm like, yep.

275

Because it wasn't about that and we

could talk about that until the cows come

276

home, but like, it is this deeper stuff.

277

Also, that's so funny you say that

because until I met my partner

278

now of just over four years, I

would have said exactly the same.

279

And I think I even was a little

bit like, like working with

280

people in relationships is boring.

281

And now I'm like, it's the

282

Jessica Engle: hardest, deepest,

most interesting work ever.

283

And it's the trickiest because we do

think of it as more surf the sea, I

284

think, in some ways in our culture.

285

Jessi Kneeland: Yeah,

286

Josh Van Vliet: I'm curious, Jessi,

where, like, so imagining someone who

287

is, you know, listening to this, they,

they're kind of hearing what we're saying

288

about acknowledging the grief and the

anger and Kind of, okay, in process

289

with acknowledging the, the, the kind

of distortions or the places where these

290

things have impacted them and their, their

sense of their, their own body and worth.

291

And like, where do they go from here?

292

Like, are there, are there kind

of practical next steps that you

293

would, you would recommend to folks?

294

Or like, where do you

imagine they go from here?

295

Uh, as they're, you know, engaging

on this, what is going to be,

296

as you're saying, a very long.

297

Journey, it's not like, uh, snap

your fingers, it'd be great.

298

Yeah.

299

Jessi Kneeland: Uh, well, I can

answer that in the length of a book.

300

Right.

301

I mean, I put all the steps there,

uh, it's kind of hard to summarize

302

quickly, but, um, I do think that

the most important thing really takes

303

some time sometimes to even just

do like step one which is basically

304

acknowledging that the thing causing

you suffering isn't your body.

305

And kind of like I said about

convincing people that they're

306

worthy and all of those things, I

can't just make you believe that.

307

It really does take some

coming to for each individual.

308

Um, I can poke holes in it, right?

309

I can be like, well, can you imagine

a person in a non conventionally

310

attractive or marginalized And

everybody usually can name someone.

311

And can you think of a person

who, you know, I mean, Beyonce or

312

somebody who might feel insecure

sometimes, and they usually can.

313

And I'm like, then great.

314

What, what is it then that feels so

definite to you that the thing that is

315

your problem is your body and it would

all be solved if you looked different?

316

But even that is pretty hard.

317

And once you acknowledge that I

think you do immediately get like

318

transported into that realm of

the deeper and more interesting.

319

But it takes a lot of curiosity,

a lot of experimentation,

320

because it's not stuff worth it.

321

Nobody looks in the mirror and

thinks like Oh, I feel, uh, you

322

know, less deserving of, not nobody

maybe, but less deserving of respect

323

today because these pants are tight.

324

That's not usually what

people are thinking.

325

They're just thinking like,

ugh, gross, I hate this.

326

This is bad.

327

So it does take, um, I think

some, a new, it's a new way of

328

thinking about the whole process.

329

But once you engage in that, it

does kind of organically take

330

you through the next steps.

331

I think.

332

Josh Van Vliet: I love, I, it's, I

think you're so right on that we don't,

333

yeah, it's usually just that like

disgust or shame or anxiety that's

334

just like this, it feels almost I

don't know, just like, just happens.

335

Just like, and I love what you're, what

you're saying there about like, okay.

336

That's not, you know, that's happening,

but it's not about that and linking

337

it to, okay, yeah, it's, it's, I'm not

feeling deserving of respect today.

338

Jessi Kneeland: Even identifying

that your body image can go up and

339

down despite the fact that you more

or less look the same is, I think.

340

It's a good way of chipping away at

the idea that your body's the definite

341

problem because you start to be

like well How come I could feel okay

342

last week and not okay this week?

343

But even within that I think it shocks

my clients in the beginning sometimes if

344

they'll be like oh I'm just like feeling

fat or gross or ugly or whatever the

345

thing is and it came out of nowhere And

I don't know why and I'll be like tell

346

me what was going on You know in the days

leading up to that and there's always

347

an answer and they're always surprised

348

But, but again, that's not how we're

taught to think about the process where

349

we think of it as like, you know, a

lightning bolt strikes and you feel

350

fat and gross today instead of like

an emotional, you're probably having a

351

fairly reasonable reaction to the meaning

that you've learned on a subconscious

352

level and whatever else was coming

up for you in that time and space.

353

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, I love, I

love the way you're talking in your

354

book about bringing neutrality.

355

To that as well, like both the,

the actual body image and then

356

like your feelings about your body.

357

Right.

358

Yeah, if that makes sense.

359

Yeah, it's like, okay,

360

Jessi Kneeland: people permission

to have body image issues, which

361

is very counterintuitive sometimes.

362

But I'm like, I mean,

that's what's here today.

363

So that's what we're working with.

364

We got to

365

Josh Van Vliet: let it be.

366

It's, it's brilliant because when

we push that stuff away, it's like,

367

it's, we're engaging with it more

rather than like, okay, this is so,

368

I'm having this thought and even

having this thought or having this

369

feeling doesn't mean anything about me.

370

It's just there.

371

Jessi Kneeland: And I will say that

that's one of the hardest things.

372

It's almost like the, um, you

know, ignorance is bliss thing.

373

Or, yeah, it's like the, when you just

hate your body and you're positive

374

that, like, it sucks and it's the

problem, you don't necessarily have

375

to feel any shame about failing at,

like, you know, body positivity or

376

feminism or any of these things, right?

377

So it's almost like the more

someone's walking the path or

378

gaining insight into themselves or

understanding these concepts, um,

379

the self judgment still struggling.

380

Honestly, it gets a lot louder for

a while, gets a lot more intense.

381

And so even just giving people permission,

I've given clients the assignment,

382

like, your job is to hate your body so

much today and tomorrow too, if that's

383

what, like, that is your assignment.

384

And I want to hear that you properly

hated it, like, because it, you know,

385

it's a little bit playful, but it

brings you back to a place of like,

386

oh, so it's okay that I'm here today.

387

And now there's just one last

layer of shame to go through to

388

actually look at what's going on.

389

I

390

Josh Van Vliet: love that.

391

That's brilliant.

392

Jessica Engle: I'm thinking Jessi about,

so, I think about body image a lot in

393

terms of how people choose partners.

394

And one of the things, so we give our

clients often an exercise where they

395

sort of figure out what their ideal

partner What their traits are, right?

396

And then they kind of prioritize

that list, and we encourage them to

397

have what we call a short list, which

is like, okay, and you're probably

398

not going to get all the things,

so like, what's most important?

399

And we share research about what actually

links to healthy relationships, things

400

like a growth mindset, the capacity to

resolve conflict in a collaborative way.

401

You know, and, oh, by the way, research

shows that things like race and height

402

and just physical attractiveness,

if that's really important to you,

403

you're probably not going to actually

have a great relationship with that

404

person or there's just no impact.

405

Right.

406

And even with all of that,

often we will have clients come

407

and say, okay, here's my list.

408

And they'll say, I feel

really badly about this, but.

409

And it is, I'm only attracted to people

who are fill in the blank, right?

410

And you can imagine what that is, you

know, tall man, thin woman, right?

411

And it's an interesting one because it's

like I can feel that they're ambivalent,

412

right, about that being on their list.

413

And, or know that it's

not a good look, right?

414

That's a great way to put it.

415

And, it's like, I think sometimes when

I Kind of explore that with people

416

or when our clinicians kind of like

swipe with clients and see that they're

417

really only kind of choosing people

who really fit the the Very small

418

percentage of people who fit society's

standards of beauty and we kind of like

419

push on that a little bit It's like

well, but this is just how I'm wired.

420

I just am NOT attracted to people

outside What society has told me is

421

objective And so, yeah, I know that's

kind of a big download, but I'm just

422

wondering how you respond to that

423

generally.

424

Jessi Kneeland: That's a huge one.

425

I feel like that's also a really good

example of the ignorance is bliss thing.

426

Like if you just fully bought into

like beauty and body ideals and we're

427

like they're facts and they're not

changing, you wouldn't feel guilty

428

or ambivalent about it at all.

429

You'd be like, I just like

hot people and that's that.

430

But once you kind of have some intuitive

sense that maybe there's more going

431

on and actually this is sort of a.

432

Superficial bias and maybe that's

not like the value you want to be

433

upholding but it's still there.

434

Yeah, it starts to get a little

messier and that happens all the time.

435

I feel like the first step is to give

them permission both to feel how they

436

feel, like what they like, and be curious.

437

Because Again, if you're like, well,

that's bad or wrong, or you're just

438

responding to biases, most people,

they're, they're going to kind of

439

dig their heels in because it feels

really deeply true and they have

440

decades of experience believing it.

441

So it feels very almost like

life threatening to be told that

442

they have to change something

like that, that feels so innate.

443

And also the truth is like,

you will like what you like.

444

So, I certainly can't tell a person that

their preference for tall men or thin

445

women is, in fact, an authentic thing

about them versus a hierarchical body,

446

you know, uh, bias or something like that.

447

But I do encourage people to be curious

and we start to explore things, about what

448

meaning they associate or attach to each

of the traits, just to see and unpack.

449

And sometimes it's like there's one that

will hook and they go like, Oh, I can see.

450

I, I think what I really want

isn't someone who's thin and fit.

451

I want someone who will have

a fit lifestyle with me.

452

So let's say that they live in a

big body, but you know, all their

453

pictures are like hiking and you

know, playing sports and stuff.

454

Um, now they might start to understand,

okay, that actually checks the box.

455

I was looking for, even though the

visual doesn't, isn't aligned with how

456

I thought checking that box would look.

457

And really getting to the heart

of what you actually care about

458

underneath any of those traits.

459

Some of it will just be straight up

bias and some of it will be really

460

pointing you in the direction of

something that matters to you a lot and

461

is important to explore and understand.

462

And, uh, yeah, only the individual

can kind of parse that apart, but.

463

I also get a lot of pushback

to that, interestingly.

464

I will say that it's one of the it's

one of the like shamiest things a client

465

will say when they've done their own,

they've been working on body image and

466

everything, and they're like, unpacking

all this stuff, and they're like, I will

467

no longer tolerate someone who objectifies

me and holds me to these standards.

468

However, I do, um, still hope that my

partner, you know, XYZ, and it's hard.

469

It's a hard thing to hold,

but I mean it makes sense.

470

It's messy what we learn.

471

And a lot of the times I think

also it's just like a, it's a

472

fast forward button on actually

understanding what you're looking for.

473

It's like a lot easier to say, I like.

474

fit looking people versus I'm interested

in someone who will, you know, live

475

this kind of lifestyle with me.

476

And then to actually take the time

to get to know who will and won't

477

connect with you on those levels.

478

So it does kind of like speed you

through some of the harder work if

479

you're just going on visuals, even

if those visuals don't actually

480

align, which they often don't.

481

Jessica Engle: Yeah,

that makes perfect sense.

482

There's some of the research we've

shared on the podcast looks at like

483

most people when they're on dating

apps, they're looking for things that

484

are easily detectable in an instant.

485

When in reality, they're

looking for something else.

486

Like you're saying, they're looking

maybe for somebody who wants to

487

be engaged physically, right?

488

The example that you gave earlier of, Oh,

maybe I'm just looking for somebody who's

489

physically active, and having a smaller

body isn't actually important to me.

490

It seems like that one really would

require that person to understand that

491

fat can be fit, that a larger body

isn't necessarily an unhealthy one.

492

Jessi Kneeland: That's why I say you

kind of, you have to kind of go through

493

each one and then address it individually

because let's say you have a long list.

494

You've got 30 physical traits

that you're looking for.

495

Each one of them probably has its

own individual meaning, whether

496

that's some kind of bias that needs

to be like re educated around.

497

For example, like the BMI is

nonsense and body size does not

498

determine fitness levels or ability.

499

So there's probably, you know,

some of them will be like that.

500

Some of them will just

be something innate.

501

You just love the look of a broad

shoulder, maybe, or, you know, you're

502

particularly attracted to masculinity

or femininity and some people embody

503

that visually and others don't.

504

Like, and then there's others that

are more about The meaning associated

505

in terms of, so for example, um, I

worked with a woman once who like

506

wanted a man, like a bear of a man.

507

She wanted a man to throw her

around, this big masculine fantasy.

508

She finds herself with a very large

masculine looking man who is incredibly

509

submissive in the bedroom and in their

relationship and is so freaking confused

510

about what to do because she's like

not attracted to him but should be

511

but can't fit you know and I was like

man like a smaller guy who embodied

512

the energy that you just think is

unbelievably sexy would have gotten

513

ruled out in the swiping process.

514

Because we, again, associate the

things we're really looking for,

515

and we use the little shortcuts in

the hopes that tall and broad means

516

dominant, and it absolutely does not.

517

Jessica Engle: Yeah, so I love that

point, just like really digging into

518

each one, and it seems like that's

one of your, like, I don't know how

519

to put it, like magical powers as a

healer, you're very, you're very, um,

520

it seems like you are somebody who,

I think you used the phrase that you

521

look for the truthiest truth, right?

522

Like you want to get into like the

heart of the matter and, and that may

523

need to be done on multiple points

when it comes to stuff around bodies.

524

Josh Van Vliet: I love also

what you're pointing to there,

525

Jessi, around attraction.

526

I mean, I think that the

common myth about attraction is

527

attraction is about physicality.

528

And what you're highlighting there

is, is so brilliant because it's like,

529

what's really sexy to this person

is the energy that this person is

530

bringing to their sexual relationship.

531

And it actually has less to

do with their physicality.

532

They just think that that's

the energy that's supposed to

533

come with that physicality.

534

Yeah.

535

And I'm curious along those lines, like.

536

Yeah, I think it feels like a pretty

pernicious kind of myth in our culture

537

that attraction is just hardwired, right?

538

That it's just like, we just like

a certain thing and that's it.

539

And there's like, it's not changeable.

540

It's not, um, and it's, and

it's basically physical, right?

541

And I'm curious, like what, what's

your take on that or how, how do

542

you, uh, how do you think about

543

Jessi Kneeland: Well, I think that's

nonsense, but more importantly, I

544

think it's a huge, massive bummer,

societally speaking, that we do that.

545

Because, at the very, very least, even

if we took all the other stuff we've been

546

talking about, meaning and association

and all that out of it, Um, even then,

547

it's, even if it were purely physical,

it's still so much more than visuals.

548

Like there is so many other factors

to what turns us on and what we

549

find desirable or sexy or gross,

you know, between a person's like

550

smell and, uh, different tactile

engagements or just there's just so

551

much if you've ever been attracted

to the sound of somebody's voice.

552

I mean, it just, even in that realm,

that purely physical realm, it's so much

553

more interesting and complex than we

want it to be or think about it being.

554

And then, I feel like even just

the physical is a small part, like

555

a pretty significantly small part.

556

of the whole package of what turns us

on or what we find attractive because

557

we're, we're really looking at a

lot of things like familiarity and

558

connection and, uh, emotional safety

and any number of energies, right?

559

Like dominant or submissive or,

you know, like how it feels,

560

uh, just to be with somebody.

561

All of those things impact.

562

Personality traits impact.

563

I don't, I don't know how many times

I've like thought someone was not that

564

attractive until they were making me

laugh and I'm like, this person is

565

hot, you know, like it changes things

to feel connected and, uh, and share

566

something that we care about and enjoy.

567

And that stuff is so.

568

Much bigger.

569

So I just think it's a,

it's a massive bummer.

570

We're robbed of a lot of really powerful

and useful insights when we think of it as

571

just something that's visually impacted.

572

And I know a lot of that is patriarchy

because we all learned that men

573

are visual, which is a problematic

statistic anyway, but um, Yeah,

574

it's almost like we didn't really

learn, oh, men are more visual.

575

It's like we learned men have nothing but

eyeballs and dicks and like, that's it.

576

And that's all they, they don't

have any other parts of themselves.

577

And that's all that they can use

to determine who to be with, which

578

is ridiculous and dehumanizing, but

it's also just, it's just wrong.

579

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah.

580

And it's like when we, when

we, when we really kind of.

581

recognize that truth.

582

I feel like that is part of what

maybe helps us begin to dismantle the

583

thought that it has to, this person

has to come in this particular package.

584

Yeah.

585

Just like you're saying, like getting

to the meaning, like getting to what

586

is, what am I actually attracted to

underneath the visual that when it's

587

like, Oh, I'm looking for that dominant

energy, or I'm looking for that.

588

You know, femininity or masculinity or

whatever it is, and how does that show up

589

in our interaction versus just visually?

590

And I mean, if we, if we really kind

of lean into that, it's like, all of a

591

sudden your, your dating pool just It's

like, holy moly, I've got so many options

592

all of a sudden of incredible people.

593

Jessi Kneeland: And it's not to

say that like visuals don't mean

594

anything because it is one of many

factors and it is a notable one

595

because we're very visual creatures.

596

So it's there.

597

It's just to say that by boiling

it down to that and nothing else or

598

that as like the dominant thing, we,

we really misunderstand ourselves

599

and we tend to look in the wrong

places and choose the wrong people.

600

Jessica Engle: I think that piece about

the messages we're given about men being

601

visual and, um, you know, constantly

horny, ready to go all the time.

602

I've worked with so many men

where my heart just breaks because

603

they say I need an emotional

connection in order to be turned on.

604

Is there something wrong with me?

605

And I'm just like, Oh no, honey,

606

Jessi Kneeland: there is

607

Jessica Engle: nothing wrong with

608

Jessi Kneeland: you.

609

I sometimes like, I just wish I could

get all the men I work with and all the

610

women I work with in a room together and

be like, tell each other how you feel.

611

Everybody is wrong and confused.

612

Jessica Engle: Yes, yeah.

613

Yeah, so I just think it's what

you're naming, you know, the

614

heart of your work, that body.

615

Image isn't about body image,

in many ways, is so freeing, um,

616

particularly around partnership.

617

Because it's like, okay, let's

think about people who are

618

looking for a long term partner.

619

Their partner is going to age,

their body is going to change.

620

And they, they know this.

621

Some part of them knows this, right?

622

And I know there are a lot of people

who will get into relationships

623

and struggle with their, their

partner's bodies changing.

624

And what a freeing thing to be

able to say, my attraction is

625

not reliant on me keeping my body

looking the way it did when we met.

626

Or my partner keeping their body

the way it looked when they met.

627

Yeah.

628

Jessi Kneeland: I had a hard time figuring

out how to tackle this in my book because

629

it felt so important that I address for

the self objectifier body image avatar,

630

someone who's learned to see themselves

and their worth as, uh, basically

631

dependent on their attractiveness.

632

It shows up so differently

inside of long term committed

633

relationships versus like the dating.

634

space or you know early relationship

spaces and I ended up just needing to do

635

it completely separately and being like

here's how it often looks in these two

636

places because unfortunately a lot of the

women that I work with will they will be

637

married or long term partner committed and

still constantly live in fear feel panicky

638

and insecure and all of these really

awful feelings based on basically not

639

being able to look hot enough to sort of,

again, they're not usually thinking this,

640

but like to keep their partner committed,

to avoid abandonment or, you know, being

641

cheated on or whatever the thing is.

642

And that is devastating.

643

It is so painful, so

scary, so overwhelming.

644

And a lot of times in these cases,

we have to really go in and be like,

645

like the thing I said before about,

uh, learning to blame the system

646

or the people versus yourself.

647

I have to be like, can you tell me how

you would feel about this person who you

648

love and believe is a very good person?

649

If he revealed to you that he

just thinks you're fat now or

650

look too old, so he's, he's out.

651

He's done with this.

652

Like, how would you feel about

that version of this person?

653

And they're always like,

oh, I, that'd be horrible.

654

Like, I would judge him so harshly

for being such a superficial jerk.

655

And I'm like, great, then let's

just assume that if he were

656

to reveal himself in this way,

you would have dodged a bullet.

657

Like, thank goodness that you

didn't have to spend the rest of

658

your life with someone who secretly

was kind of a horrible person.

659

Because that is the only negative outcome.

660

Your heart would still break,

it would still suck so bad, but

661

it would be on him, not on you.

662

And I think that starts to shift from

like panic and obligation, like I have

663

to maintain this aesthetic or else I'm

gonna be abandoned, to like, actually

664

my partner has committed to me under

the circumstances that I believe he's a

665

good person who loves me for who I am.

666

And that would be a complete break in

our agreement if he revealed otherwise.

667

That wouldn't be acceptable.

668

I wouldn't want to be with that person.

669

Josh Van Vliet: It's such a like a

reality based, like, when we put it in

670

those terms, it just becomes so obvious.

671

Like, of course you wouldn't want to be

with that person even though on some level

672

it's like, yeah, I'm worried that that's

673

Jessi Kneeland: But that's like

the power of the anger, too.

674

Getting, getting, painting a hyperbolic

enough, sort of ridiculous enough, like,

675

you know, idea here, so that they can

be like, oh, screw that guy, you know?

676

Just tapping into that anger immediately

takes them out of that disempowered,

677

anxious, I have to, like, protect myself

by, you know, following all these rules

678

plays, and allows them to be like,

oh, okay, I see this differently now.

679

Josh Van Vliet: What would you say

to the kind of flip side of that

680

partnership, the person who either

is worried that they're going to lose

681

attraction to their partner as they age

or, or says, right, that their, their

682

partner's body has changed and they have

683

Jessi Kneeland: So this is

another really common one.

684

I would say similarly to what I

said before, we approach it with

685

a lot of curiosity and acceptance.

686

Like, that's possible.

687

And if it is, we will explore it in

a way that maybe is more creative.

688

Or, you know, yeah.

689

interesting, playful, whatever,

than you've been taught.

690

Like, we'll handle that if that's

just legit what's going on.

691

But I've yet to meet someone who

actually, when they started exploring

692

and discovered, I just am not attracted

to them anymore because of their body.

693

Um, there is always, always,

always other stuff going on.

694

And sometimes it's the meaning.

695

For example, like, I'm not attracted to my

partner anymore because they gained weight

696

might really be, I'm not attracted to them

anymore because they They used to be this

697

very vibrant person, you know, who sort of

like was active and enthusiastic and now

698

they spend all their time on the couch and

they're kind of like in this place that

699

makes me feel abandoned or disconnected.

700

You know, sometimes it's that.

701

And then other times, it's just that

we are, we do not want to have sex with

702

people that we don't feel safe with.

703

And so any number of relationship

issues can make us not feel attracted,

704

which is to say like, you know,

the body's brakes slam on when the

705

thought of being intimate with someone

we don't feel safe with comes up.

706

And I think again, it's a bummer that

we were taught to ascribe any of these

707

experiences to appearance because when you

think it's that, you don't really feel a

708

need to dig a whole lot deeper, you know?

709

Then you're stuck and

there's nothing to do.

710

You just either wait till they get

hotter again or find someone else.

711

I mean, it's a pretty limited

plan, but when you understand that

712

there's deeper stuff going on,

there's always something you can do.

713

You can explore like, what

is making me feel unsafe?

714

What is it that I need?

715

What, what is making me feel,

you know, hurt or resentful

716

or, um, abandoned or whatever.

717

Disconnected.

718

Jessica Engle: The other thing that I

imagine, I don't know if you've come

719

across this, I certainly have seen

in some of my clients coming back to,

720

like, narcissistic family systems, a

desire to have a partner who fits a

721

mold that their family has given them,

um, as this is what an attractive

722

or valuable partner looks like.

723

And so, I can also imagine that

if a partner starts to, you know,

724

age and kind of stop looking like

that, they're sort of unprocessed

725

trauma from that family system.

726

The internal narcissist starts to speak

up and say, this is not acceptable

727

and this does not make me look good.

728

And then that starts to

come out on the partner.

729

And that's the piece where I just

like, again, my heart breaks is

730

where some of these things are

being spoken to the partner.

731

Right?

732

Without the person actually

looking at what's underneath that.

733

Jessi Kneeland: I actually do pretty

regularly if a client has like a previous

734

history of being criticized or picked

apart for their body by a partner.

735

Um, sometimes we'll go back in and

look for the context that maybe their

736

image, emotionally immature partner

was unable to voice when he said like,

737

I don't know, your thighs are gross.

738

Like, what could it have meant?

739

It's not exactly helpful always to try to

understand someone who's just being unkind

740

or disrespectful, but there are times

where just going in and understanding

741

that they were basically using you in

a way that Like is unacceptable or that

742

they were holding you to a standard or

wanting to control you so that you would

743

make them look good Really understanding

that again, it takes the pressure off of

744

you to have smaller thighs and it makes

it like, oh, okay I can see that that

745

wasn't on me But yeah, I think that that

That's a really tricky one, especially

746

when it's the person I'm working with

is feeling all these things starting

747

to rise up and it's so dark and shamey

and they're like, I don't want to be

748

like this, but I kind of want him to

check this box and fulfill this status.

749

And, you know, like, Make my family

proud of me and all these things that

750

are just so big and once you really

name them so dark Because you wouldn't

751

normally go around being like, yeah,

I pick people to make me look good But

752

when it's under there, it's under there

753

Jessica Engle: Yeah Again, the

darkest of the dark with some of these

754

with relationships with body image

755

Josh Van Vliet: You'll called in this

moment to remind folks that if you're

756

experiencing that Having that thought

doesn't mean anything about you.

757

Right.

758

It's just so important

to see that it's there.

759

So that you don't keep doing

the things that are causing

760

harm in your relationship.

761

But just, yeah, recognizing that

is such a painful And, and not

762

life giving way of approaching it.

763

Jessi Kneeland: It is.

764

And nobody just invented

it out of nowhere.

765

Right.

766

You have that thought.

767

That probably happened to you.

768

And there's a good reason

that that wound up in there.

769

Um, so I totally agree.

770

There's no, there's no shame in it.

771

It can feel really dark

and scary to admit.

772

I've had plenty of those moments in my

own relationship stuff where I'm like,

773

oh man, I'm doing the thing I would judge

anyone else ever for doing right now.

774

And it's a strategy I learned

somewhere and now I have to unlearn it.

775

A whole thing now.

776

Um, but yeah, it also, I

think it's an invitation.

777

It's an invitation to go

deeper and figure out what.

778

is going on.

779

If you want the kind of relationship that

really is, as you say, like life affirming

780

or nourishing, um, you're gonna have to go

in there and see what's going on and maybe

781

the person really isn't a good fit for

any number of reasons and you chose them

782

from a place that you don't necessarily

still want to be choosing from.

783

But often it's just, it's a matter

of, uh, owning the, owning your

784

side of the street, basically.

785

And then showing up and

letting that be enough.

786

Jessica Engle: I'm also thinking about

relationship milestones and how our

787

attachment material gets activated

when we cross certain thresholds.

788

So, when we become exclusive,

when we move in together, when we

789

get engaged, when we have kiddos.

790

More trauma material just

naturally gets activated.

791

And so, just wanting to encourage

the listener to really notice when

792

these things are, are, are popping up.

793

When am I starting to have these

thoughts about my partner that

794

do not feel like they are me?

795

They do not feel aligned with my values.

796

Is it coinciding with something

that maybe is touching on some

797

younger stuff that you just can't

consciously acknowledge or process?

798

And so it's being projected

onto your partner in some way.

799

Jessi Kneeland: I will also say

that we tend to judge our partners

800

harshly when, uh, we have unmet needs.

801

that we are feeling resentful or hurt

or abandoned or whatever other unneeds,

802

uh, needs that we have are going unmet.

803

So if you catch yourself being especially

critical about them, their appearance,

804

how they got, you know, into this

state, whatever it might be, or, or

805

feeling like that stuff is very loud

that would be a great time to slow down

806

and notice, like, What needs might have

gone unmet for a while here at that?

807

I mean anger is like a super useful

tool for coping with vulnerability

808

in a lot of ways so it makes

sense that it would come up.

809

And then other times it goes the complete

opposite direction and it's like the

810

unmet needs and the vulnerability

lead you to blame yourself and now

811

maybe you're having a complete body

image meltdown, a shame spiral, you're

812

blaming yourself for being a failure or

unworthy and it's kind of the same thing.

813

Like.

814

You have unmet needs.

815

And it's just painful to have unmet needs

with someone that you care about so much.

816

So these things often rise up or

cover up for those things as well.

817

Josh Van Vliet: Going back to something

you said a moment ago, Jessi, it made

818

so much sense to me when you were

saying If it's just about attraction,

819

like physical attraction or body

changing, you have nowhere to go, right?

820

And in, in like the system of the couple,

of the, of the relationship, if you stop

821

there, number one, you have nowhere to go.

822

And, and then you're also usually like

causing harm to your partner, right?

823

It's, it, it can be very painful to have

somebody say, I'm no longer attracted

824

to you because you've gained weight or

because you have wrinkles or because you

825

know whatever xyz change in your body so

it's it's like both you're causing harm

826

and there's no there's no like possible

path forward and when we drop down to

827

that lower like what's underneath that

what's going on the relationship it's

828

occurring to me like attraction is is kind

of never a one sided thing i'm curious

829

if you agree with this i'm thinking this

out loud as i'm saying it but In the

830

sense, like, we're in a system, right?

831

There's a, there's a relationship

happening, and what you're naming

832

about, yeah, there's something

happening where I don't feel safe,

833

maybe, in the relationship, or

there's not emotional intimacy

834

present anymore because we've stopped

connecting with each other regularly.

835

Uh, there's like, something in the

system is happening that's, that

836

needs to be addressed between the two

of you that you know, becomes like,

837

okay, there's something we can get

curious about together to reconnect.

838

erotically or sensually, that isn't like

you've changed, you're bad, or, or it's

839

on me because, you know, I'm embodying

the patriarchy or these unrealistic, you

840

know, ideals of beauty and it's all my

fault for, you know, it's like, oh no,

841

there's something in the system that's

happening here that we can get creative

842

about together to connect and, and engage.

843

Jessi Kneeland: So I think what

you're getting at is the fact that

844

desire in long term relationship is

something that can and should and

845

maybe even must be cultivated together.

846

It is not something that just comes and

goes and you get it when you get it or I

847

should say maybe it is that too but it's

not the same thing as like chemistry in

848

the beginning or like you know that sort

of spontaneous like spark with someone

849

which is very chemically induced and

also Just based on other stuff, uh, a lot

850

of times projections of how you imagine

the person to be, but you know, there's

851

other stuff going on in the beginning.

852

But when you're in a long term

relationship, I think a lot of

853

times the spark dies, or at least

that's how people think of it.

854

They think they're less attracted to each

other because they just never learned that

855

desire was a thing you could cultivate.

856

Or that there was literally any agency

inside of the, each individual and

857

the partnership itself to, And there's

so much we can do to impact it,

858

including communicate about all the

stuff we've just sort of named because

859

that's stuff that'll get in the way.

860

But even just like exploring pleasure.

861

and making it a sex life that's

based on something other than just

862

the spark of spontaneous desire

or chemistry, that's a skill.

863

And the couples who have it long term

have probably cultivated it, whether

864

they're aware of it or not, because

most of the time that's just, it's not

865

just going to stick around magically.

866

Well, if I

867

Jessica Engle: find, if I find the

perfect person, Jessi, it will.

868

Jessi Kneeland: You know, actually,

if you look perfect and then find the

869

perfect person, then it will be there.

870

And honestly, that's a lot of

body image issues in partnership.

871

It's often like the fantasy that

they're, they're wanting so badly is

872

that if I looked better, if I looked

right we would still have uh, the kind

873

of sparky desire and erotic life that

we used to have or that I wish we had.

874

And, and again, that just comes

from a feeling of complete

875

disempowerment, feeling like they

have no way of impacting that.

876

So as they build that skill, and many

skills inside that skill, um, a lot

877

of times the pressure to look quote

unquote perfect just sort of fades away.

878

Jessica Engle: Yeah, I feel like

what I'm hearing is the through

879

line in all we're talking about.

880

around body images.

881

A lot of people, their experience

of their body image, uh, of other

882

people's bodies comes from this

sort of external locus of control.

883

I'm not in control of what

other people think of me, what I

884

think of other people's bodies,

and it's very objectifying.

885

It's sort of, um, What I think is

what I think, versus Josh, what you

886

described, like, collaborative, right?

887

We go into the relationship knowing

that we can co create desire, and

888

there's that internal locus of control.

889

I actually have a lot of control

over how I feel about your body

890

and how I feel about my body.

891

Maybe not moment by moment I can

control what my thoughts are, but

892

ultimately we have the capacity to be

curious together and build that skill

893

set, which is, again, I think such

a like invigorating, hopeful frame.

894

Jessi Kneeland: Definitely.

895

Yeah, I was, uh, I was telling someone

recently that they're asking about like,

896

you know, long term key to desire because

they've often experienced a lot of sex

897

and chemistry in the beginning and then

it like falls away and they just start

898

not into it anymore, which is a very

common pattern for a lot of reasons.

899

But Yeah, so she was just asking me like,

you know, what do I think the key is, or

900

whatever, how do you keep it interesting,

I don't remember how she asked it, but

901

I was like, I don't know how else to

put this, other than to say like, cause

902

she was asking about my partner and I,

I was like, our sex life is like our

903

fav it's our favorite shared hobby.

904

It's a hobby.

905

And like any hobby, we're constantly like,

talking about it, learning new things,

906

you know, like sharing stuff that comes

up and, uh, practicing, you know, and

907

trying like you would with any hobby.

908

And he and I don't share a lot of hobbies.

909

So it's kind of our main one

and it's my favorite one.

910

But like that approach was

never, I've never grew up with

911

anyone talking about it that way.

912

We just don't think of it that way.

913

We think of it as something that sort

of just like happens magically if

914

you're hot enough and um, and that's it.

915

And that's so limiting, disempowering,

and just a massive bummer because

916

it's awesome to make it a hobby.

917

Like intimacy as a hobby is.

918

10 out of 10, recommend.

919

Josh Van Vliet: I love

that way of putting it.

920

That way of looking at it.

921

It's so good.

922

And you're so right, like, nobody

teaches that as a way of like,

923

desire, attraction, intimacy.

924

Could be a thing that

you actually cultivate.

925

Could be like your favorite

hobby with your sweetie.

926

Like, what a, what a like,

fun way of, of approaching it.

927

Jessi Kneeland: Yeah, and it just,

I think once you feel a little bit

928

more empowered in that space, it's

almost impossible for body image to

929

take up the same, to like hold, to

be on the same pedestal basically.

930

Because it's a stand in,

it's that shortcut button.

931

Both for yourself and for your partner.

932

It's like, if I want to feel aroused

instead of asking my partner to learn

933

how to arouse me better, I'll just either

judge them for not being hot enough,

934

or for gaining weight or whatever, or

I'll judge myself for not making him do

935

the things properly and read my mind.

936

Like, it's a terrible shortcut,

but it is often how that functions.

937

Jessica Engle: Reminds me a little bit

of Stan Tatkin talks about partners

938

who complain that they're bored in

a relationship often are boring in

939

the sense that they have disengaged

on some level because another person

940

is a constantly evolving organism.

941

It's not possible to be bored

if you're paying attention.

942

to another person's evolution and

to the relationship's evolution.

943

So just, yeah, like reframing,

like, okay, if there's no

944

spark, where am I not engaging?

945

What have I numbed out from here?

946

What am I maybe not saying?

947

Jessi Kneeland: Yeah,

I definitely see that.

948

I also, I'm gonna give you just a little

pushback here, and maybe I'm wrong,

949

but this thought is coming, like, I

think that I could be bored by people.

950

They just wouldn't be the people I

ended up choosing to partner with.

951

Like, I think there is Probably some,

some people could bore you, but assuming

952

that they didn't in the beginning

and they start to, something has

953

shifted and that something is not who

they fundamentally are as a person.

954

Jessica Engle: Yeah.

955

I agree with that.

956

I'll give you

957

Jessi Kneeland: that.

958

I like that.

959

Yeah.

960

I definitely feel like there's, yeah,

there's so much disconnection that we, I

961

guess part of this is patriarchal stuff.

962

Like I should never be too needy

or men won't like me kind of stuff

963

that a lot of my clients don't like.

964

Deal with, and of course, men.

965

in their own way aren't supposed

to be needy either, so basically

966

nobody gets to be all the way there.

967

But yeah, I think there's a lot of

disconnection that comes subtly over

968

time and makes people just feel like,

well, since they're not pushing us into

969

a closer, more intimate, more connected

space, clearly this is what they want.

970

And feeling like it would be

unwelcome for you to go in and be

971

like, I want More conversations.

972

I want more connected sex.

973

I want us to, like, know each other again.

974

Those not only feel unwelcome,

they feel like they would, um, be a

975

massive burden on the other person.

976

Even if they're both separately,

which I think is often the case,

977

both separately desperate for it.

978

They both feel like, well, this

is obviously what they want.

979

And I think that kind of disconnect

is really, it's harder to name

980

than something that goes wrong.

981

You know, if you have like a

major life transformation and

982

you're like, Oh, ever since the

baby, we haven't been having sex.

983

It's un understandable.

984

Like the concept makes sense.

985

It's a lot harder to be like, we

slowly stopped knowing each other

986

and I feel lonely at home and I don't

want to have sex from that place.

987

But also I feel scared of doing anything

about it because it feels so vulnerable

988

to go in and be like, I don't know

what, I don't know who you are anymore.

989

Yeah.

990

Or I don't feel seen by you.

991

Yeah,

992

Jessica Engle: that can feel so risky,

and I'm thinking about people who grow

993

up in homes where there is less abuse

and more neglect, and it can be easy

994

to slip into that kind of slightly

dissociated, not being totally honest

995

space because that's what feels normal.

996

And so it can actually be You know, trauma

work to speak up in a dynamic like that.

997

Jessi Kneeland: Totally, and I

think there's also a tricky aspect

998

of that is that like in a healthy

supportive relationship there needs

999

to be a spaciousness and a patience,

right, because you're not going to

01:00:40,797 --> 01:00:43,377

be connected all the time every day

feeling seen and all the things.

01:00:43,827 --> 01:00:48,217

So I do feel like there's um, it often

comes from a really lovely impulse to

01:00:48,217 --> 01:00:52,862

like be compassionate toward whatever

their partner's going through or not to

01:00:52,902 --> 01:00:56,892

burden them when things are especially

stressful, but then it often becomes

01:00:56,892 --> 01:01:02,642

these long tails of disconnect, these

sort of slow fadeaways on both sides.

01:01:03,861 --> 01:01:04,361

Josh Van Vliet: Mm.

01:01:04,771 --> 01:01:07,321

Well, I feel like I could talk

with you about this for hours,

01:01:07,321 --> 01:01:09,231

Jessi, and, uh, I know I'm down.

01:01:09,831 --> 01:01:11,611

I know we probably have

other things to do today.

01:01:11,661 --> 01:01:15,551

Uh, is there anything else that either of

you want to touch on before we, we move

01:01:15,551 --> 01:01:18,201

towards closing for, for today at least?

01:01:19,150 --> 01:01:22,130

Jessica Engle: No, just to say

thank you to, to you, Jessi.

01:01:22,150 --> 01:01:28,470

I, your mind's brilliant and I just love

like slicing and dicing ideas with you.

01:01:29,155 --> 01:01:30,035

Jessi Kneeland: Thank you.

01:01:30,775 --> 01:01:34,005

Um, I feel the same and I could

literally do this for the rest

01:01:34,005 --> 01:01:35,755

of the afternoon pretty happily.

01:01:35,755 --> 01:01:42,525

So, uh, Yeah, no, I can't think of

anything, but I do feel like, um, I don't

01:01:42,525 --> 01:01:46,885

know exactly what your listenership, like

where they're at in their journeys, but

01:01:46,895 --> 01:01:55,345

if they are In a place of feeling like

it's just that they're undeserving or

01:01:55,345 --> 01:01:59,125

nobody's going to choose them because of

how they look or they really just aren't

01:01:59,125 --> 01:02:01,845

attracted to their partner anymore because

of how they look or they really are going

01:02:01,845 --> 01:02:03,195

to be abandoned because of how they look.

01:02:03,525 --> 01:02:08,625

Like, just know that it makes sense

that those thoughts got in there.

01:02:09,205 --> 01:02:10,055

Because it does.

01:02:11,015 --> 01:02:12,935

And that doesn't make them true.

01:02:13,745 --> 01:02:16,855

And I promise you there's a world of

interesting things if you get curious

01:02:16,855 --> 01:02:20,065

about it instead of feeling like you

already know the answer and it's this.

01:02:21,032 --> 01:02:23,002

Josh Van Vliet: Such a sweet,

hopeful note to leave folks on.

01:02:23,002 --> 01:02:23,442

I love it.

01:02:24,022 --> 01:02:26,572

Jessica Engle: Jessi, if people want

to find you, how do they do that?

01:02:29,652 --> 01:02:32,212

Jessi Kneeland: They can find me,

my website is Jessikneeland.Com.

01:02:32,232 --> 01:02:35,952

So I have all my information there

about coaching courses, blog, et cetera.

01:02:36,452 --> 01:02:41,972

And then I'm active on Instagram and

TikTok at Jessineeland and also YouTube.

01:02:42,242 --> 01:02:45,312

And as you mentioned in the intro of my

podcast, this is not about your body.

01:02:46,312 --> 01:02:46,662

Awesome.

01:02:47,012 --> 01:02:49,752

Josh Van Vliet: We'll include links

to all of that in the show notes.

01:02:52,022 --> 01:02:52,572

Beautiful.

01:02:52,632 --> 01:02:54,892

Um, well, thank you so

much, Jessi, for joining us.

01:02:54,972 --> 01:02:56,952

That is all for today, folks.

01:02:57,312 --> 01:03:00,762

Um, as I just mentioned, you'll find

links to all the resources we mentioned

01:03:00,772 --> 01:03:04,392

in today's episode in the show notes,

as well as at relationshipcenter.

01:03:04,392 --> 01:03:05,522

com slash

01:03:05,552 --> 01:03:06,372

Jessica Engle: podcast.

01:03:06,982 --> 01:03:07,332

Yes.

01:03:07,352 --> 01:03:09,962

And dear listener, if something

in this episode touched you,

01:03:09,972 --> 01:03:12,792

will you please leave us a rating

and a review in Apple podcasts?

01:03:13,837 --> 01:03:17,057

That helps us reach more

sweet humans like you.

01:03:17,717 --> 01:03:18,057

And until

01:03:18,057 --> 01:03:19,527

Josh Van Vliet: next

time, we love you too.

01:03:20,027 --> 01:03:20,857

Bye!

01:03:20,857 --> 01:03:33,947

Jessi Kneeland: You

01:03:50,250 --> 01:03:51,280

guys are adorable.

01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:55,220

Jessica Engle: You