Dear Listener, do negative thoughts about your body or your partner’s body stop you from building a satisfying love life?

If so, you won’t want to miss our conversation with special guest Jessi Kneeland, a renowned body image coach, author of Body Neutral: A Revolutionary Guide to Overcoming Body Image Issues, and host of the podcast This Is (Not) About Your Body.

This illuminating discussion explores how rigid beauty standards sabotage romantic relationships.

First, we tackle the common phenomenon of avoiding dating entirely due to negative body image and how body neutrality can help.

Next, Jessi provides thoughtful insights on a taboo topic – physical dealbreakers in dating.  They discuss ways to suss out true dealbreakers versus those rooted in rigid beauty standards and psychological defenses. We discuss how prioritizing certain physical traits can significantly narrow one's dating pool,  the implications of such choices, and what to do about it.

Lastly, Jessi offers advice for couples in which one partner reports reduced attraction in response to their partner’s appearance changing, e.g., after gaining weight or aging. Jessi offers a surprising take on how to unpack these complex emotional terrains so that couples can maintain attraction over the long haul.

Key Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

02:42 - What is body neutrality and why is it important?

06:49 - How do you date with body image issues?

23:06 - “I feel badly about this, but I’m just not attracted to people who…”

41:05 - What would you say to couples where one partner “loses attraction” because their partner’s body has changed?

Resources and links

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Connect with Jessi Kneeland

https://www.jessikneeland.com/

Instagram: @jessikneeland

Tiktok: @jessikneeland

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/JessiKneeland

Jessi’s podcast: This is (Not) About Your Body

Body Neutral: A Revolutionary Guide to Overcoming Body Image Issues by Jessi Kneeland

To get more free dating, relationship, and social anxiety advice, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter to sign up for – you guessed it – our newsletter!

Josh Van Vliet: Hello and

welcome dear listener.

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A quick note before we start the

show, we had a technical glitch

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with our usual recording software

on the day that we recorded this

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interview with Jessi Kneeland.

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So you'll hear that our audio doesn't

sound quite as nice as normal,

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but it's a wonderful conversation

with some, , some gems in it.

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So, please excuse the audio

quality and, uh, we hope you enjoy.

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Jessica Engle: From the Relationship

Center, I'm psychotherapist, couples

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counselor, and dating coach Jessica

Engle, and this is I Love You Too,

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a show about how to create and

sustain meaningful relationships.

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Josh Van Vliet: I'm dating and

relationship coach Josh Van Vliet.

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On today's episode, we're going to talk

about body image and relationships with

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our very special guest, Jessi Kneeland.

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We're so happy you're here, and

please remember that this show is

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not a substitute for a relationship

with a licensed mental health

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professional.

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Welcome, welcome, dear

listener, and welcome, Jessi.

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We are so thrilled to

have you joining us today.

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For those of you, yeah, for those

of you who don't know, Jessi, Jessi

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Kneeland is a writer speaker and coach

on a mission to help folks escape

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suffering caused by body image issues

through the pursuit of body neutrality.

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And Jessi is the author of Body Neutral,

A Revolutionary Guide to Overcoming Body

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Image Issues, as well as the host of

the podcast This Is Not About Your Body.

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And also just a delightful human.

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It's been so fun to connect with

you, Jessi, uh, in our prep for

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this and listening to your work

and reading some of your work.

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It's been really, really fun.

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So I'm really glad that we get to share

your wisdom with, with our audience today.

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Jessi Kneeland: That's so sweet.

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Thank you.

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Josh Van Vliet: Is there anything

that you'd like to share about who

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you are, what you do, just to kind

of introduce yourself to folks?

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Jessi Kneeland: I mean,

you covered the basics.

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I, uh, I'm a body image coach and

I am lately obsessing over, uh,

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how to help people break free from

internalized oppression, all of

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the many forms that that can take.

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And often the, the overlap there with

patriarchy and body image issues.

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So Yeah, that's where my, my head

has been at lately, but everything

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else you said pretty much covers it.

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Josh Van Vliet: Beautiful.

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Well, we're especially excited to

chat with you today about, as I

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said, this intersection between,

uh, healthy relating and body image.

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And there's so much that comes up at

this intersection that kind of gets in

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the way of Making meaningful connections

and building healthy relationships.

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And so we're gonna be

diving in with that today.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Jess,

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Jessica Engle: well, I just wanna see

if we can start out, I think a lot

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of people have probably heard about

body positivity and body neutrality

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is probably a newer term for them.

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And so I thought we might just start

out by having you kind of set the table

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in terms of what is body neutrality

and, and why is that even helpful?

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Jessi Kneeland: Yeah, definitely.

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So, when I first heard the term, it was

sort of posed as like an alternative,

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sort of like a resting place between

hating your body and loving your body

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if that felt like a lot of pressure.

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And, uh, it felt a little bit

more realistic and accessible for

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people, but it really was a, at the

time, kind of just like a, I don't

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know, like an in between place.

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It didn't have it, it

wasn't super fleshed out.

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In the way that I have approached it

and it has evolved and developed in my

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work, I now think of it as the ability

to engage with and view your body and

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other people's bodies without the added

meaning that we learn to associate with.

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different shapes and sizes

and appearances of bodies.

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So, uh, we're constantly adding meaning.

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That meaning is usually what makes

you hate your body or sometimes love

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your body and feel super confident.

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Both of those things are

problematic in their own right.

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To me, the body neutrality is not just a

resting place, although absolutely that

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can be what gets people in the door.

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It's about actually being able to view

it accurately without that interpretation

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and meaning sort of being layered on top.

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Jessica Engle: I love that.

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And so what would be an example of,

of meaning somebody might ascribe to

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their body or to another person's body?

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Jessi Kneeland: Oh God, uh, like

a super common example would be

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that if you're fat, you're lazy.

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Or like sort of have some, some

kind of character flaw, you're,

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you're a terrible person somehow

because you haven't figured out how

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to, you know, live your life right.

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And it just means this really, really

negative stuff about you based on one

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factor, which would be just body size.

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Jessica Engle: I'm so excited to talk

to you about this as it relates to

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relationships, because something that

I see often with the clients that we're

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working with who are looking for their

partner or people who are partnered.

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Is how The way they think about their

bodies or other people's bodies stops

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them from enjoying the relationships

that they're in or being open to lots

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of different kinds of connections.

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And so I'm curious in the work that you've

done, and this is a broad question, so

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go with it where you want, like what

kinds of shifts do you see in people's

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relationships when they start to sort

of walk the body neutrality path and

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kind of pull away those, those meanings?

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Uh, about people's bodies

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Jessi Kneeland: is a huge question

because it kind of depends on

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what, how their meaning was

impacting them in the first place.

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But I would say like a pretty good

across the board would be relationships

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improve because they start to feel more.

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worthy as a human as opposed to, um,

because when you have all this meaning

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attached to all of these things you're

constantly like imagining that your

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worth kind of goes up and down and that

impacts how you show up in relationships

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because you're trying to like earn

getting your needs met by providing

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them with something they like or want

you know it's it just gets gets in the

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way of authenticity so much so pretty

much no matter what the meaning was.

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It, it makes it easier to be real

with the person in front of you.

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I also think a lot of people's body

image issues come from a desire to like,

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control stuff that's not controllable.

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Um, and so as they let go of that, as

they sort of acknowledge and release that

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fantasy that, that they can control these

things or be so perfect that they'll

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never be rejected or, you know, whatever

it might be, they learn to tolerate

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their own feelings, which is again,

just going to make every relationship

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smoother, more authentic, more intimate.

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Jessica Engle: I love that.

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Well, I think that leads

beautifully into our next section.

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Josh, where do you want to go here?

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Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, I mean, let's, let's

start with dating because we work with

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a lot of folks around dating and some

portion of our, the folks who come to us

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avoid dating because of body image issues.

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And so I'm curious, what's your take

Jessi, on how do you, how do you approach

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dating or how do you engage with dating?

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Uh, If you've got body image issues,

which is like all of us basically, right?

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Like,

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Jessi Kneeland: it's such a hard one.

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And I think it's important just to start

by saying it's very understandable because

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when you've learned that, so the meaning

there could be anything, it could be super

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nuanced and complex, but at its basis,

it's like, you're not good enough to date

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that what your body Is, means something

basically makes you like undesirable on

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the market, or people won't love you, or

you know, any number of interpretations,

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but basically they're all you're just

not good enough, you don't deserve to

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do it, or find someone, or be loved.

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And that's an incredibly

objectifying stance.

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The idea that we are choosing each

other based exclusively on our

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body shape or size or appearance.

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We don't think about what a terrible and

mean thought that is or if, you know, most

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people say, is that why you choose people?

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Like, is that what you're looking for?

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And they're like, oh my God, no, never.

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Like, that's, you know, that's not what

I like or want or, or I'm looking for,

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but it's what I imagine everyone else is.

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And so it's an incredibly

lonely place to be.

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It's super, super isolating and scary

and shamey and hard and really common.

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But I think that starting to

identify what that meaning is

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for any particular individual.

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Really naming the story and then

challenging, and I always say like, um,

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just poking holes in the argument with,

with like, you know, sort of chipping

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away at it because I'm never going to just

convince someone, Oh yeah, you're fine.

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People will love you and want you.

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It's no problem.

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Like that's never going to convince

someone who feels that way.

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So instead we find ways to, to poke

holes in the argument that in fact

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this thing about how you look is it

makes you unchoosable, unlovable,

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unworthy for the dating world.

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Jessica Engle: I'm curious, uh, to dig

into that a little bit more, the poking

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the holes in the argument because, you

know, I think that body image stuff

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around dating can, there's so many

negative messages we get in pop culture

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from people in the dating pool, and it

can feel very easy to, I think for a lot

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of people assert their usual narrative.

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So, for example if I'm a, uh, a curvy

woman of color, right, there are actual

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biases out there that are stopping that

person from actually getting matches

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or being treated respectfully, right?

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And so, I'm curious when somebody who

comes from, marginalized groups comes

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to you and says like, no, the reality is

the world wants me to be thin and white.

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Yeah.

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How do you respond to that?

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Jessi Kneeland: Well, uh, I'm going to

start by telling you a kind of funny

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and kind of embarrassing story, which

is that I had only worked with women.

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At the point that I started working

with an Asian man, and I tried to

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do with him in this space what I had

been doing successfully with women

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for years, and I was like, just get on

Tinder and start chatting with people.

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It'll build your confidence and, you know,

start helping FearFace and Months went

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by and there was no matches with whom

to practice chatting and I had to take a

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very humbling dive down the rabbit hole

of racism on dating apps and just sort of

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learning like Whoa, this is a this is a

literal barrier to even just what I was

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thinking of as a place to practice or

explore So that was many years ago now,

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but it uh, it taught me a lot And it was

pretty shocking, I think, at the time.

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Um, but now, when I say, like, looking

at your body accurately, viewing these

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things without the added meaning,

accurately includes acknowledging

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reality, which includes living inside

of a system of oppression where, yeah,

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your body absolutely might limit your

dating pool, it might limit your matches,

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it might limit your opportunities.

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I think the meaning, though,

that people ascribe to that fact,

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which is true, is that it means

something about them, which is not.

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And that's where we

start to differentiate.

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And honestly, when someone's in that

position, there's a lot of grief work to

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go through a lot of times because it, it's

almost like empowering isn't quite the

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right word, but there's something about

feeling like, well, if it's my fault and

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I can change it, then I'll have access.

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It's like that, that fake fantasy of maybe

if I lose the weight, then I'll be a more

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desirable match and this will be easier.

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Um, and kind of accepting like,

actually, it's not my fault that

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people are fatphobic, but it does

limit my options, so this is going to

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be harder for me and that just hurts.

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Josh Van Vliet: I think that's such

a brilliant distinction to make that.

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Because I think one of the places

kind of personal development and, and

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this kind of world can often go wrong

is so focused on the individual that

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it's like, it's all in your control.

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It's all, it's all about what you're

thinking or what you're thinking about

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yourself and ignoring the, the realities

of what's happening in the world and

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what's just true about the conditions

that we're existing in and the Bye.

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Bye.

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Like you're saying that fantasy of,

well, if I, if I do think it's within my

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control and I could just lose the weight

and that would change things, you know,

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it's an under, it's like a, it's like a,

uh, a useful defense mechanism almost.

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It gives us a sense of, of

power, but it's the wrong sense

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of power because it's not real.

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It doesn't actually, it's not going to

get us where we ultimately want to go.

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So I love that you're

making that distinction.

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Like, okay, there's truth here

about what the conditions are and.

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The, the, the nuance here is that

doesn't mean anything about you.

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We can make that distinction.

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That's huge.

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Jessi Kneeland: Yeah.

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And along with the grief of just

acknowledging like, this is hard for me

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and it hurts and it sucks and all of that

stuff, there's also a lot of times a lot

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of important work to move through around

the anger, the anger at the injustice.

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That is a system in which

something about your body makes

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your opportunities less available.

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But by getting angry at the system and

any people who upheld those systems or,

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you know, used it against you in the

past, which most people in marginalized

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bodies have lots of those stories it

starts to shift the shame and it stops

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being the story of I'm just not good

enough or I don't deserve better and

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it shifts into the right people will.

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like me for who I am and it may be

harder for me to find those people

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because of this messed up system.

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Jessica Engle: I'm thinking about the

conversation you and I had on your

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podcast, Jessi, about narcissistic

family systems and how for some people

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who grow up with self absorbed parents,

they learn to take responsibility.

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for everything.

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And they don't have the emotional skill

set to grieve and to feel rightful rage

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at people who are actually hurting them.

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And so it sounds like part of the work

you're describing is we have to shift

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out of that understandable defense,

as Josh was saying, and learn how

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to, like, let our hearts be broken

in a different way and to feel bigly.

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And To also with that, and this is

part of what I loved in listening to

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your book was just part of what comes

with that is we also have to develop

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new skills and face fears, right?

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Because if it, if it's not that

there's something wrong with me,

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there's a bunch of things to do, right?

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There's like writing a profile and there's

It's going out on dates and feeling

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awkward on dates and so many things.

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Jessi Kneeland: And a

lot of internal work too.

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If you've never learned discernment

or the ability to listen to your

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intuition or that you have a right

to, uh, have your own desires and take

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up space or advocate for your needs.

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My God, there's so many skills that can

go into it, which is why sometimes when

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people are like, well, what can I expect?

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How long will this take?

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I'm like, Really depends.

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There's a lot to do.

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As for some people, it is a very long

process and it's not just, okay, I

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feel worthy now and it's all fine.

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It's an ongoing commitment to learning

how to be in the world without those

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fantasies kind of like protecting

slash hurting you, you know?

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Jessica Engle: Yeah, it's interesting.

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It strikes me that the work that

you do may be similar to the work

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we do in that I remember when I

first started doing dating coaching.

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I think I had this thought that it

was gonna be kind of like light work

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Jessi Kneeland: Right.

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Jessica Engle: I can see that.

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Yeah.

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And the truth is like dating goes to

the, the, the darkest of the dark,

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the deepest of the deep, you know,

and it's like, yeah, finding a partner

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may be a, a limited time effort, but

all of the stuff that it kicks up is,

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you know, probably goes back decades.

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And it sounds like that's the

same for the work that you do.

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It's like, yeah, it's body image, but

oh, it is so much more than body image.

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Jessi Kneeland: I mean, I would say

that for most of, like, when I take

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on a new client, we will rarely

spend more than like a few weeks

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getting to something much deeper and

more interesting than body image.

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And then stay there for like

a month before swinging back.

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And they're kind of like, Oh yeah, I guess

I haven't thought about that in a while.

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Or I haven't had like a, I

haven't been feeling insecure.

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I haven't thought about it at all.

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I'm like, yep.

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Because it wasn't about that and we

could talk about that until the cows come

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home, but like, it is this deeper stuff.

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Also, that's so funny you say that

because until I met my partner

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now of just over four years, I

would have said exactly the same.

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And I think I even was a little

bit like, like working with

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people in relationships is boring.

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And now I'm like, it's the

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Jessica Engle: hardest, deepest,

most interesting work ever.

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And it's the trickiest because we do

think of it as more surf the sea, I

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think, in some ways in our culture.

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Jessi Kneeland: Yeah,

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Josh Van Vliet: I'm curious, Jessi,

where, like, so imagining someone who

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is, you know, listening to this, they,

they're kind of hearing what we're saying

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about acknowledging the grief and the

anger and Kind of, okay, in process

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with acknowledging the, the, the kind

of distortions or the places where these

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things have impacted them and their, their

sense of their, their own body and worth.

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And like, where do they go from here?

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Like, are there, are there kind

of practical next steps that you

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would, you would recommend to folks?

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Or like, where do you

imagine they go from here?

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Uh, as they're, you know, engaging

on this, what is going to be,

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as you're saying, a very long.

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Journey, it's not like, uh, snap

your fingers, it'd be great.

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Yeah.

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Jessi Kneeland: Uh, well, I can

answer that in the length of a book.

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Right.

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I mean, I put all the steps there,

uh, it's kind of hard to summarize

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quickly, but, um, I do think that

the most important thing really takes

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some time sometimes to even just

do like step one which is basically

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acknowledging that the thing causing

you suffering isn't your body.

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And kind of like I said about

convincing people that they're

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worthy and all of those things, I

can't just make you believe that.

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It really does take some

coming to for each individual.

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Um, I can poke holes in it, right?

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I can be like, well, can you imagine

a person in a non conventionally

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attractive or marginalized And

everybody usually can name someone.

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And can you think of a person

who, you know, I mean, Beyonce or

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somebody who might feel insecure

sometimes, and they usually can.

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And I'm like, then great.

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What, what is it then that feels so

definite to you that the thing that is

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your problem is your body and it would

all be solved if you looked different?

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But even that is pretty hard.

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And once you acknowledge that I

think you do immediately get like

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transported into that realm of

the deeper and more interesting.

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But it takes a lot of curiosity,

a lot of experimentation,

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because it's not stuff worth it.

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Nobody looks in the mirror and

thinks like Oh, I feel, uh, you

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know, less deserving of, not nobody

maybe, but less deserving of respect

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today because these pants are tight.

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That's not usually what

people are thinking.

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They're just thinking like,

ugh, gross, I hate this.

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This is bad.

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So it does take, um, I think

some, a new, it's a new way of

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thinking about the whole process.

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But once you engage in that, it

does kind of organically take

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you through the next steps.

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I think.

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Josh Van Vliet: I love, I, it's, I

think you're so right on that we don't,

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yeah, it's usually just that like

disgust or shame or anxiety that's

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just like this, it feels almost I

don't know, just like, just happens.

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Just like, and I love what you're, what

you're saying there about like, okay.

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That's not, you know, that's happening,

but it's not about that and linking

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it to, okay, yeah, it's, it's, I'm not

feeling deserving of respect today.

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Jessi Kneeland: Even identifying

that your body image can go up and

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down despite the fact that you more

or less look the same is, I think.

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It's a good way of chipping away at

the idea that your body's the definite

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problem because you start to be

like well How come I could feel okay

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last week and not okay this week?

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But even within that I think it shocks

my clients in the beginning sometimes if

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they'll be like oh I'm just like feeling

fat or gross or ugly or whatever the

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thing is and it came out of nowhere And

I don't know why and I'll be like tell

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me what was going on You know in the days

leading up to that and there's always

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an answer and they're always surprised

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But, but again, that's not how we're

taught to think about the process where

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we think of it as like, you know, a

lightning bolt strikes and you feel

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fat and gross today instead of like

an emotional, you're probably having a

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fairly reasonable reaction to the meaning

that you've learned on a subconscious

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level and whatever else was coming

up for you in that time and space.

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Josh Van Vliet: Yeah, I love, I

love the way you're talking in your

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book about bringing neutrality.

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To that as well, like both the,

the actual body image and then

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like your feelings about your body.

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Right.

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Yeah, if that makes sense.

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Yeah, it's like, okay,

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Jessi Kneeland: people permission

to have body image issues, which

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is very counterintuitive sometimes.

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But I'm like, I mean,

that's what's here today.

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So that's what we're working with.

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We got to

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Josh Van Vliet: let it be.

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It's, it's brilliant because when

we push that stuff away, it's like,

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it's, we're engaging with it more

rather than like, okay, this is so,

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I'm having this thought and even

having this thought or having this

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feeling doesn't mean anything about me.

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It's just there.

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Jessi Kneeland: And I will say that

that's one of the hardest things.

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It's almost like the, um, you

know, ignorance is bliss thing.

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Or, yeah, it's like the, when you just

hate your body and you're positive

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that, like, it sucks and it's the

problem, you don't necessarily have

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to feel any shame about failing at,

like, you know, body positivity or

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feminism or any of these things, right?

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So it's almost like the more

someone's walking the path or

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gaining insight into themselves or

understanding these concepts, um,

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the self judgment still struggling.

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Honestly, it gets a lot louder for

a while, gets a lot more intense.

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And so even just giving people permission,

I've given clients the assignment,

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like, your job is to hate your body so

much today and tomorrow too, if that's

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what, like, that is your assignment.

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And I want to hear that you properly

hated it, like, because it, you know,

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it's a little bit playful, but it

brings you back to a place of like,

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oh, so it's okay that I'm here today.

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And now there's just one last

layer of shame to go through to

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actually look at what's going on.

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I

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Josh Van Vliet: love that.

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That's brilliant.

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Jessica Engle: I'm thinking Jessi about,

so, I think about body image a lot in

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terms of how people choose partners.

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And one of the things, so we give our

clients often an exercise where they

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sort of figure out what their ideal

partner What their traits are, right?

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And then they kind of prioritize

that list, and we encourage them to

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have what we call a short list, which

is like, okay, and you're probably

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not going to get all the things,

so like, what's most important?

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And we share research about what actually

links to healthy relationships, things

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like a growth mindset, the capacity to

resolve conflict in a collaborative way.

401

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You know, and, oh, by the way, research

shows that things like race and height

402

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and just physical attractiveness,

if that's really important to you,

403

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you're probably not going to actually

have a great relationship with that

404

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person or there's just no impact.

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Right.

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And even with all of that,

often we will have clients come

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and say, okay, here's my list.

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And they'll say, I feel

really badly about this, but.

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And it is, I'm only attracted to people

who are fill in the blank, right?

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And you can imagine what that is, you

know, tall man, thin woman, right?

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And it's an interesting one because it's

like I can feel that they're ambivalent,

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right, about that being on their list.

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And, or know that it's

not a good look, right?

414

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That's a great way to put it.

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And, it's like, I think sometimes when

I Kind of explore that with people

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or when our clinicians kind of like

swipe with clients and see that they're

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really only kind of choosing people

who really fit the the Very small

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percentage of people who fit society's

standards of beauty and we kind of like

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push on that a little bit It's like

well, but this is just how I'm wired.

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I just am NOT attracted to people

outside What society has told me is

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objective And so, yeah, I know that's

kind of a big download, but I'm just

422

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wondering how you respond to that

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generally.

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Jessi Kneeland: That's a huge one.

425

00:25:24,669 --> 00:25:27,709

I feel like that's also a really good

example of the ignorance is bliss thing.

426

00:25:27,709 --> 00:25:31,439

Like if you just fully bought into

like beauty and body ideals and we're

427

00:25:31,439 --> 00:25:35,399

like they're facts and they're not

changing, you wouldn't feel guilty

428

00:25:35,399 --> 00:25:36,454

or ambivalent about it at all.

429

00:25:36,454 --> 00:25:38,719

You'd be like, I just like

hot people and that's that.

430

00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,699

But once you kind of have some intuitive

sense that maybe there's more going

431

00:25:43,699 --> 00:25:45,169

on and actually this is sort of a.

432

00:25:45,674 --> 00:25:50,584

Superficial bias and maybe that's

not like the value you want to be

433

00:25:50,584 --> 00:25:51,834

upholding but it's still there.

434

00:25:52,294 --> 00:25:55,284

Yeah, it starts to get a little

messier and that happens all the time.

435

00:25:56,734 --> 00:26:02,204

I feel like the first step is to give

them permission both to feel how they

436

00:26:02,204 --> 00:26:05,904

feel, like what they like, and be curious.

437

00:26:06,284 --> 00:26:11,584

Because Again, if you're like, well,

that's bad or wrong, or you're just

438

00:26:11,584 --> 00:26:14,064

responding to biases, most people,

they're, they're going to kind of

439

00:26:14,064 --> 00:26:16,784

dig their heels in because it feels

really deeply true and they have

440

00:26:16,894 --> 00:26:18,504

decades of experience believing it.

441

00:26:18,514 --> 00:26:22,864

So it feels very almost like

life threatening to be told that

442

00:26:22,864 --> 00:26:25,154

they have to change something

like that, that feels so innate.

443

00:26:26,364 --> 00:26:29,764

And also the truth is like,

you will like what you like.

444

00:26:30,339 --> 00:26:35,369

So, I certainly can't tell a person that

their preference for tall men or thin

445

00:26:35,369 --> 00:26:40,939

women is, in fact, an authentic thing

about them versus a hierarchical body,

446

00:26:41,029 --> 00:26:43,799

you know, uh, bias or something like that.

447

00:26:44,729 --> 00:26:50,274

But I do encourage people to be curious

and we start to explore things, about what

448

00:26:50,284 --> 00:26:54,464

meaning they associate or attach to each

of the traits, just to see and unpack.

449

00:26:54,484 --> 00:26:59,384

And sometimes it's like there's one that

will hook and they go like, Oh, I can see.

450

00:26:59,384 --> 00:27:03,154

I, I think what I really want

isn't someone who's thin and fit.

451

00:27:03,174 --> 00:27:05,874

I want someone who will have

a fit lifestyle with me.

452

00:27:06,654 --> 00:27:10,294

So let's say that they live in a

big body, but you know, all their

453

00:27:10,294 --> 00:27:13,424

pictures are like hiking and you

know, playing sports and stuff.

454

00:27:13,764 --> 00:27:17,464

Um, now they might start to understand,

okay, that actually checks the box.

455

00:27:17,544 --> 00:27:22,464

I was looking for, even though the

visual doesn't, isn't aligned with how

456

00:27:22,464 --> 00:27:24,094

I thought checking that box would look.

457

00:27:25,974 --> 00:27:29,374

And really getting to the heart

of what you actually care about

458

00:27:29,414 --> 00:27:31,444

underneath any of those traits.

459

00:27:31,884 --> 00:27:35,664

Some of it will just be straight up

bias and some of it will be really

460

00:27:35,664 --> 00:27:38,304

pointing you in the direction of

something that matters to you a lot and

461

00:27:38,314 --> 00:27:40,244

is important to explore and understand.

462

00:27:40,924 --> 00:27:44,934

And, uh, yeah, only the individual

can kind of parse that apart, but.

463

00:27:46,174 --> 00:27:48,904

I also get a lot of pushback

to that, interestingly.

464

00:27:48,914 --> 00:27:53,304

I will say that it's one of the it's

one of the like shamiest things a client

465

00:27:53,304 --> 00:27:56,114

will say when they've done their own,

they've been working on body image and

466

00:27:56,114 --> 00:27:59,604

everything, and they're like, unpacking

all this stuff, and they're like, I will

467

00:27:59,604 --> 00:28:03,924

no longer tolerate someone who objectifies

me and holds me to these standards.

468

00:28:04,604 --> 00:28:11,754

However, I do, um, still hope that my

partner, you know, XYZ, and it's hard.

469

00:28:11,764 --> 00:28:15,514

It's a hard thing to hold,

but I mean it makes sense.

470

00:28:15,754 --> 00:28:17,984

It's messy what we learn.

471

00:28:19,044 --> 00:28:23,264

And a lot of the times I think

also it's just like a, it's a

472

00:28:23,264 --> 00:28:26,494

fast forward button on actually

understanding what you're looking for.

473

00:28:26,814 --> 00:28:29,054

It's like a lot easier to say, I like.

474

00:28:29,979 --> 00:28:34,919

fit looking people versus I'm interested

in someone who will, you know, live

475

00:28:34,919 --> 00:28:36,449

this kind of lifestyle with me.

476

00:28:37,049 --> 00:28:41,629

And then to actually take the time

to get to know who will and won't

477

00:28:41,629 --> 00:28:43,079

connect with you on those levels.

478

00:28:43,719 --> 00:28:47,009

So it does kind of like speed you

through some of the harder work if

479

00:28:47,009 --> 00:28:50,989

you're just going on visuals, even

if those visuals don't actually

480

00:28:50,989 --> 00:28:52,139

align, which they often don't.

481

00:28:52,959 --> 00:28:54,349

Jessica Engle: Yeah,

that makes perfect sense.

482

00:28:54,349 --> 00:28:58,589

There's some of the research we've

shared on the podcast looks at like

483

00:28:58,649 --> 00:29:01,719

most people when they're on dating

apps, they're looking for things that

484

00:29:01,719 --> 00:29:04,799

are easily detectable in an instant.

485

00:29:05,529 --> 00:29:07,919

When in reality, they're

looking for something else.

486

00:29:07,929 --> 00:29:10,029

Like you're saying, they're looking

maybe for somebody who wants to

487

00:29:10,029 --> 00:29:13,119

be engaged physically, right?

488

00:29:13,896 --> 00:29:18,786

The example that you gave earlier of, Oh,

maybe I'm just looking for somebody who's

489

00:29:18,786 --> 00:29:23,506

physically active, and having a smaller

body isn't actually important to me.

490

00:29:23,646 --> 00:29:27,946

It seems like that one really would

require that person to understand that

491

00:29:28,416 --> 00:29:35,326

fat can be fit, that a larger body

isn't necessarily an unhealthy one.

492

00:29:36,193 --> 00:29:38,673

Jessi Kneeland: That's why I say you

kind of, you have to kind of go through

493

00:29:38,693 --> 00:29:43,893

each one and then address it individually

because let's say you have a long list.

494

00:29:43,893 --> 00:29:47,883

You've got 30 physical traits

that you're looking for.

495

00:29:48,363 --> 00:29:51,613

Each one of them probably has its

own individual meaning, whether

496

00:29:51,613 --> 00:29:56,233

that's some kind of bias that needs

to be like re educated around.

497

00:29:56,243 --> 00:30:01,213

For example, like the BMI is

nonsense and body size does not

498

00:30:01,213 --> 00:30:03,233

determine fitness levels or ability.

499

00:30:03,958 --> 00:30:06,398

So there's probably, you know,

some of them will be like that.

500

00:30:06,408 --> 00:30:08,398

Some of them will just

be something innate.

501

00:30:08,408 --> 00:30:12,218

You just love the look of a broad

shoulder, maybe, or, you know, you're

502

00:30:12,218 --> 00:30:17,118

particularly attracted to masculinity

or femininity and some people embody

503

00:30:17,118 --> 00:30:18,368

that visually and others don't.

504

00:30:18,858 --> 00:30:23,248

Like, and then there's others that

are more about The meaning associated

505

00:30:23,248 --> 00:30:30,528

in terms of, so for example, um, I

worked with a woman once who like

506

00:30:30,748 --> 00:30:33,868

wanted a man, like a bear of a man.

507

00:30:33,868 --> 00:30:37,008

She wanted a man to throw her

around, this big masculine fantasy.

508

00:30:37,408 --> 00:30:42,258

She finds herself with a very large

masculine looking man who is incredibly

509

00:30:42,258 --> 00:30:47,048

submissive in the bedroom and in their

relationship and is so freaking confused

510

00:30:47,228 --> 00:30:50,398

about what to do because she's like

not attracted to him but should be

511

00:30:50,398 --> 00:30:55,058

but can't fit you know and I was like

man like a smaller guy who embodied

512

00:30:55,058 --> 00:30:58,948

the energy that you just think is

unbelievably sexy would have gotten

513

00:30:58,948 --> 00:31:01,148

ruled out in the swiping process.

514

00:31:02,143 --> 00:31:07,003

Because we, again, associate the

things we're really looking for,

515

00:31:07,023 --> 00:31:10,353

and we use the little shortcuts in

the hopes that tall and broad means

516

00:31:10,553 --> 00:31:13,133

dominant, and it absolutely does not.

517

00:31:14,013 --> 00:31:18,163

Jessica Engle: Yeah, so I love that

point, just like really digging into

518

00:31:18,223 --> 00:31:23,198

each one, and it seems like that's

one of your, like, I don't know how

519

00:31:23,198 --> 00:31:29,958

to put it, like magical powers as a

healer, you're very, you're very, um,

520

00:31:30,798 --> 00:31:34,758

it seems like you are somebody who,

I think you used the phrase that you

521

00:31:34,768 --> 00:31:36,258

look for the truthiest truth, right?

522

00:31:36,258 --> 00:31:41,328

Like you want to get into like the

heart of the matter and, and that may

523

00:31:41,328 --> 00:31:46,508

need to be done on multiple points

when it comes to stuff around bodies.

524

00:31:48,134 --> 00:31:49,674

Josh Van Vliet: I love also

what you're pointing to there,

525

00:31:49,674 --> 00:31:52,554

Jessi, around attraction.

526

00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:56,369

I mean, I think that the

common myth about attraction is

527

00:31:56,369 --> 00:31:58,179

attraction is about physicality.

528

00:31:59,779 --> 00:32:03,419

And what you're highlighting there

is, is so brilliant because it's like,

529

00:32:04,239 --> 00:32:08,459

what's really sexy to this person

is the energy that this person is

530

00:32:08,459 --> 00:32:10,559

bringing to their sexual relationship.

531

00:32:11,099 --> 00:32:13,599

And it actually has less to

do with their physicality.

532

00:32:13,809 --> 00:32:15,739

They just think that that's

the energy that's supposed to

533

00:32:15,739 --> 00:32:16,319

come with that physicality.

534

00:32:17,289 --> 00:32:17,679

Yeah.

535

00:32:17,909 --> 00:32:19,619

And I'm curious along those lines, like.

536

00:32:20,374 --> 00:32:23,954

Yeah, I think it feels like a pretty

pernicious kind of myth in our culture

537

00:32:23,954 --> 00:32:27,184

that attraction is just hardwired, right?

538

00:32:27,184 --> 00:32:31,964

That it's just like, we just like

a certain thing and that's it.

539

00:32:32,084 --> 00:32:34,144

And there's like, it's not changeable.

540

00:32:34,144 --> 00:32:38,154

It's not, um, and it's, and

it's basically physical, right?

541

00:32:38,714 --> 00:32:41,904

And I'm curious, like what, what's

your take on that or how, how do

542

00:32:41,904 --> 00:32:43,404

you, uh, how do you think about

543

00:32:43,455 --> 00:32:48,204

Jessi Kneeland: Well, I think that's

nonsense, but more importantly, I

544

00:32:48,204 --> 00:32:53,204

think it's a huge, massive bummer,

societally speaking, that we do that.

545

00:32:53,694 --> 00:32:59,464

Because, at the very, very least, even

if we took all the other stuff we've been

546

00:32:59,464 --> 00:33:04,314

talking about, meaning and association

and all that out of it, Um, even then,

547

00:33:04,324 --> 00:33:08,294

it's, even if it were purely physical,

it's still so much more than visuals.

548

00:33:08,654 --> 00:33:12,834

Like there is so many other factors

to what turns us on and what we

549

00:33:12,834 --> 00:33:17,864

find desirable or sexy or gross,

you know, between a person's like

550

00:33:17,864 --> 00:33:24,804

smell and, uh, different tactile

engagements or just there's just so

551

00:33:24,804 --> 00:33:27,654

much if you've ever been attracted

to the sound of somebody's voice.

552

00:33:27,740 --> 00:33:33,459

I mean, it just, even in that realm,

that purely physical realm, it's so much

553

00:33:33,459 --> 00:33:37,659

more interesting and complex than we

want it to be or think about it being.

554

00:33:38,059 --> 00:33:42,889

And then, I feel like even just

the physical is a small part, like

555

00:33:42,889 --> 00:33:44,869

a pretty significantly small part.

556

00:33:45,014 --> 00:33:48,734

of the whole package of what turns us

on or what we find attractive because

557

00:33:48,734 --> 00:33:52,364

we're, we're really looking at a

lot of things like familiarity and

558

00:33:52,404 --> 00:33:59,474

connection and, uh, emotional safety

and any number of energies, right?

559

00:33:59,474 --> 00:34:03,494

Like dominant or submissive or,

you know, like how it feels,

560

00:34:03,864 --> 00:34:06,654

uh, just to be with somebody.

561

00:34:06,655 --> 00:34:08,543

All of those things impact.

562

00:34:09,409 --> 00:34:11,349

Personality traits impact.

563

00:34:11,418 --> 00:34:16,259

I don't, I don't know how many times

I've like thought someone was not that

564

00:34:16,259 --> 00:34:19,039

attractive until they were making me

laugh and I'm like, this person is

565

00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:25,319

hot, you know, like it changes things

to feel connected and, uh, and share

566

00:34:25,319 --> 00:34:27,668

something that we care about and enjoy.

567

00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:29,879

And that stuff is so.

568

00:34:30,563 --> 00:34:31,454

Much bigger.

569

00:34:31,964 --> 00:34:34,344

So I just think it's a,

it's a massive bummer.

570

00:34:34,344 --> 00:34:41,014

We're robbed of a lot of really powerful

and useful insights when we think of it as

571

00:34:41,014 --> 00:34:44,143

just something that's visually impacted.

572

00:34:44,594 --> 00:34:46,924

And I know a lot of that is patriarchy

because we all learned that men

573

00:34:46,924 --> 00:34:54,063

are visual, which is a problematic

statistic anyway, but um, Yeah,

574

00:34:54,063 --> 00:34:56,434

it's almost like we didn't really

learn, oh, men are more visual.

575

00:34:56,434 --> 00:35:00,724

It's like we learned men have nothing but

eyeballs and dicks and like, that's it.

576

00:35:00,724 --> 00:35:04,064

And that's all they, they don't

have any other parts of themselves.

577

00:35:04,064 --> 00:35:07,944

And that's all that they can use

to determine who to be with, which

578

00:35:07,954 --> 00:35:11,594

is ridiculous and dehumanizing, but

it's also just, it's just wrong.

579

00:35:12,761 --> 00:35:12,966

Josh Van Vliet: Yeah.

580

00:35:12,966 --> 00:35:15,511

And it's like when we, when

we, when we really kind of.

581

00:35:16,136 --> 00:35:17,566

recognize that truth.

582

00:35:18,136 --> 00:35:22,616

I feel like that is part of what

maybe helps us begin to dismantle the

583

00:35:22,616 --> 00:35:26,216

thought that it has to, this person

has to come in this particular package.

584

00:35:26,946 --> 00:35:27,196

Yeah.

585

00:35:27,216 --> 00:35:29,466

Just like you're saying, like getting

to the meaning, like getting to what

586

00:35:29,466 --> 00:35:35,466

is, what am I actually attracted to

underneath the visual that when it's

587

00:35:35,476 --> 00:35:38,356

like, Oh, I'm looking for that dominant

energy, or I'm looking for that.

588

00:35:38,571 --> 00:35:43,581

You know, femininity or masculinity or

whatever it is, and how does that show up

589

00:35:43,931 --> 00:35:47,721

in our interaction versus just visually?

590

00:35:48,181 --> 00:35:53,601

And I mean, if we, if we really kind

of lean into that, it's like, all of a

591

00:35:53,601 --> 00:35:59,751

sudden your, your dating pool just It's

like, holy moly, I've got so many options

592

00:35:59,751 --> 00:36:01,911

all of a sudden of incredible people.

593

00:36:02,421 --> 00:36:06,071

Jessi Kneeland: And it's not to

say that like visuals don't mean

594

00:36:06,071 --> 00:36:11,741

anything because it is one of many

factors and it is a notable one

595

00:36:11,751 --> 00:36:13,321

because we're very visual creatures.

596

00:36:13,331 --> 00:36:14,581

So it's there.

597

00:36:15,941 --> 00:36:20,091

It's just to say that by boiling

it down to that and nothing else or

598

00:36:20,091 --> 00:36:25,241

that as like the dominant thing, we,

we really misunderstand ourselves

599

00:36:25,331 --> 00:36:28,941

and we tend to look in the wrong

places and choose the wrong people.

600

00:36:29,872 --> 00:36:33,472

Jessica Engle: I think that piece about

the messages we're given about men being

601

00:36:33,482 --> 00:36:37,532

visual and, um, you know, constantly

horny, ready to go all the time.

602

00:36:37,872 --> 00:36:42,142

I've worked with so many men

where my heart just breaks because

603

00:36:42,302 --> 00:36:47,592

they say I need an emotional

connection in order to be turned on.

604

00:36:48,002 --> 00:36:49,612

Is there something wrong with me?

605

00:36:50,072 --> 00:36:52,588

And I'm just like, Oh no, honey,

606

00:36:52,588 --> 00:36:54,204

Jessi Kneeland: there is

607

00:36:54,204 --> 00:36:56,859

Jessica Engle: nothing wrong with

608

00:36:56,859 --> 00:36:58,677

Jessi Kneeland: you.

609

00:36:59,327 --> 00:37:03,077

I sometimes like, I just wish I could

get all the men I work with and all the

610

00:37:03,077 --> 00:37:06,007

women I work with in a room together and

be like, tell each other how you feel.

611

00:37:06,637 --> 00:37:08,087

Everybody is wrong and confused.

612

00:37:09,577 --> 00:37:10,577

Jessica Engle: Yes, yeah.

613

00:37:11,367 --> 00:37:15,427

Yeah, so I just think it's what

you're naming, you know, the

614

00:37:15,427 --> 00:37:16,917

heart of your work, that body.

615

00:37:17,402 --> 00:37:22,852

Image isn't about body image,

in many ways, is so freeing, um,

616

00:37:22,862 --> 00:37:24,112

particularly around partnership.

617

00:37:24,142 --> 00:37:26,122

Because it's like, okay, let's

think about people who are

618

00:37:26,122 --> 00:37:27,842

looking for a long term partner.

619

00:37:28,392 --> 00:37:32,192

Their partner is going to age,

their body is going to change.

620

00:37:32,652 --> 00:37:34,062

And they, they know this.

621

00:37:34,222 --> 00:37:35,942

Some part of them knows this, right?

622

00:37:36,377 --> 00:37:39,177

And I know there are a lot of people

who will get into relationships

623

00:37:39,247 --> 00:37:42,317

and struggle with their, their

partner's bodies changing.

624

00:37:43,007 --> 00:37:47,077

And what a freeing thing to be

able to say, my attraction is

625

00:37:47,077 --> 00:37:51,277

not reliant on me keeping my body

looking the way it did when we met.

626

00:37:51,872 --> 00:37:55,472

Or my partner keeping their body

the way it looked when they met.

627

00:37:55,752 --> 00:37:56,242

Yeah.

628

00:37:57,642 --> 00:38:02,762

Jessi Kneeland: I had a hard time figuring

out how to tackle this in my book because

629

00:38:02,772 --> 00:38:07,772

it felt so important that I address for

the self objectifier body image avatar,

630

00:38:07,772 --> 00:38:10,932

someone who's learned to see themselves

and their worth as, uh, basically

631

00:38:10,932 --> 00:38:12,422

dependent on their attractiveness.

632

00:38:13,062 --> 00:38:15,532

It shows up so differently

inside of long term committed

633

00:38:15,532 --> 00:38:17,172

relationships versus like the dating.

634

00:38:17,422 --> 00:38:22,822

space or you know early relationship

spaces and I ended up just needing to do

635

00:38:22,822 --> 00:38:25,862

it completely separately and being like

here's how it often looks in these two

636

00:38:25,862 --> 00:38:31,582

places because unfortunately a lot of the

women that I work with will they will be

637

00:38:31,582 --> 00:38:37,392

married or long term partner committed and

still constantly live in fear feel panicky

638

00:38:37,412 --> 00:38:43,992

and insecure and all of these really

awful feelings based on basically not

639

00:38:43,992 --> 00:38:49,117

being able to look hot enough to sort of,

again, they're not usually thinking this,

640

00:38:49,117 --> 00:38:54,727

but like to keep their partner committed,

to avoid abandonment or, you know, being

641

00:38:54,727 --> 00:38:56,337

cheated on or whatever the thing is.

642

00:38:56,817 --> 00:38:58,407

And that is devastating.

643

00:38:59,127 --> 00:39:02,037

It is so painful, so

scary, so overwhelming.

644

00:39:03,392 --> 00:39:07,962

And a lot of times in these cases,

we have to really go in and be like,

645

00:39:07,992 --> 00:39:10,912

like the thing I said before about,

uh, learning to blame the system

646

00:39:10,922 --> 00:39:12,332

or the people versus yourself.

647

00:39:13,262 --> 00:39:17,192

I have to be like, can you tell me how

you would feel about this person who you

648

00:39:17,192 --> 00:39:18,942

love and believe is a very good person?

649

00:39:19,402 --> 00:39:22,972

If he revealed to you that he

just thinks you're fat now or

650

00:39:22,972 --> 00:39:24,592

look too old, so he's, he's out.

651

00:39:25,202 --> 00:39:26,192

He's done with this.

652

00:39:26,302 --> 00:39:29,092

Like, how would you feel about

that version of this person?

653

00:39:29,102 --> 00:39:33,232

And they're always like,

oh, I, that'd be horrible.

654

00:39:33,232 --> 00:39:37,062

Like, I would judge him so harshly

for being such a superficial jerk.

655

00:39:37,562 --> 00:39:40,572

And I'm like, great, then let's

just assume that if he were

656

00:39:40,572 --> 00:39:43,712

to reveal himself in this way,

you would have dodged a bullet.

657

00:39:44,472 --> 00:39:47,642

Like, thank goodness that you

didn't have to spend the rest of

658

00:39:47,642 --> 00:39:50,922

your life with someone who secretly

was kind of a horrible person.

659

00:39:51,962 --> 00:39:54,232

Because that is the only negative outcome.

660

00:39:54,272 --> 00:39:58,962

Your heart would still break,

it would still suck so bad, but

661

00:39:58,962 --> 00:40:01,672

it would be on him, not on you.

662

00:40:02,002 --> 00:40:06,122

And I think that starts to shift from

like panic and obligation, like I have

663

00:40:06,122 --> 00:40:10,842

to maintain this aesthetic or else I'm

gonna be abandoned, to like, actually

664

00:40:11,172 --> 00:40:14,352

my partner has committed to me under

the circumstances that I believe he's a

665

00:40:14,352 --> 00:40:16,267

good person who loves me for who I am.

666

00:40:16,777 --> 00:40:21,167

And that would be a complete break in

our agreement if he revealed otherwise.

667

00:40:22,117 --> 00:40:23,127

That wouldn't be acceptable.

668

00:40:23,127 --> 00:40:24,287

I wouldn't want to be with that person.

669

00:40:27,187 --> 00:40:30,687

Josh Van Vliet: It's such a like a

reality based, like, when we put it in

670

00:40:30,687 --> 00:40:32,457

those terms, it just becomes so obvious.

671

00:40:32,507 --> 00:40:36,487

Like, of course you wouldn't want to be

with that person even though on some level

672

00:40:36,507 --> 00:40:38,237

it's like, yeah, I'm worried that that's

673

00:40:40,387 --> 00:40:42,057

Jessi Kneeland: But that's like

the power of the anger, too.

674

00:40:42,057 --> 00:40:46,767

Getting, getting, painting a hyperbolic

enough, sort of ridiculous enough, like,

675

00:40:46,777 --> 00:40:49,647

you know, idea here, so that they can

be like, oh, screw that guy, you know?

676

00:40:50,427 --> 00:40:54,267

Just tapping into that anger immediately

takes them out of that disempowered,

677

00:40:55,057 --> 00:41:00,337

anxious, I have to, like, protect myself

by, you know, following all these rules

678

00:41:00,337 --> 00:41:04,507

plays, and allows them to be like,

oh, okay, I see this differently now.

679

00:41:05,942 --> 00:41:10,111

Josh Van Vliet: What would you say

to the kind of flip side of that

680

00:41:10,111 --> 00:41:14,641

partnership, the person who either

is worried that they're going to lose

681

00:41:14,641 --> 00:41:19,431

attraction to their partner as they age

or, or says, right, that their, their

682

00:41:19,431 --> 00:41:21,231

partner's body has changed and they have

683

00:41:24,046 --> 00:41:25,486

Jessi Kneeland: So this is

another really common one.

684

00:41:26,986 --> 00:41:30,266

I would say similarly to what I

said before, we approach it with

685

00:41:30,266 --> 00:41:31,876

a lot of curiosity and acceptance.

686

00:41:31,906 --> 00:41:33,226

Like, that's possible.

687

00:41:33,776 --> 00:41:38,846

And if it is, we will explore it in

a way that maybe is more creative.

688

00:41:39,176 --> 00:41:41,526

Or, you know, yeah.

689

00:41:41,846 --> 00:41:44,506

interesting, playful, whatever,

than you've been taught.

690

00:41:44,516 --> 00:41:47,766

Like, we'll handle that if that's

just legit what's going on.

691

00:41:48,256 --> 00:41:51,116

But I've yet to meet someone who

actually, when they started exploring

692

00:41:51,116 --> 00:41:54,826

and discovered, I just am not attracted

to them anymore because of their body.

693

00:41:55,296 --> 00:41:58,696

Um, there is always, always,

always other stuff going on.

694

00:41:59,266 --> 00:42:00,706

And sometimes it's the meaning.

695

00:42:00,706 --> 00:42:04,686

For example, like, I'm not attracted to my

partner anymore because they gained weight

696

00:42:04,746 --> 00:42:09,011

might really be, I'm not attracted to them

anymore because they They used to be this

697

00:42:09,011 --> 00:42:14,361

very vibrant person, you know, who sort of

like was active and enthusiastic and now

698

00:42:14,361 --> 00:42:17,671

they spend all their time on the couch and

they're kind of like in this place that

699

00:42:17,671 --> 00:42:20,651

makes me feel abandoned or disconnected.

700

00:42:21,111 --> 00:42:22,491

You know, sometimes it's that.

701

00:42:23,116 --> 00:42:27,606

And then other times, it's just that

we are, we do not want to have sex with

702

00:42:27,626 --> 00:42:29,216

people that we don't feel safe with.

703

00:42:29,486 --> 00:42:34,076

And so any number of relationship

issues can make us not feel attracted,

704

00:42:34,076 --> 00:42:37,626

which is to say like, you know,

the body's brakes slam on when the

705

00:42:37,626 --> 00:42:40,336

thought of being intimate with someone

we don't feel safe with comes up.

706

00:42:41,106 --> 00:42:45,346

And I think again, it's a bummer that

we were taught to ascribe any of these

707

00:42:45,356 --> 00:42:50,166

experiences to appearance because when you

think it's that, you don't really feel a

708

00:42:50,166 --> 00:42:52,826

need to dig a whole lot deeper, you know?

709

00:42:54,396 --> 00:42:57,806

Then you're stuck and

there's nothing to do.

710

00:42:57,816 --> 00:43:01,296

You just either wait till they get

hotter again or find someone else.

711

00:43:01,296 --> 00:43:04,716

I mean, it's a pretty limited

plan, but when you understand that

712

00:43:04,716 --> 00:43:07,016

there's deeper stuff going on,

there's always something you can do.

713

00:43:07,016 --> 00:43:09,456

You can explore like, what

is making me feel unsafe?

714

00:43:09,456 --> 00:43:10,486

What is it that I need?

715

00:43:10,486 --> 00:43:13,836

What, what is making me feel,

you know, hurt or resentful

716

00:43:13,886 --> 00:43:16,676

or, um, abandoned or whatever.

717

00:43:16,786 --> 00:43:17,476

Disconnected.

718

00:43:18,716 --> 00:43:21,396

Jessica Engle: The other thing that I

imagine, I don't know if you've come

719

00:43:21,396 --> 00:43:27,266

across this, I certainly have seen

in some of my clients coming back to,

720

00:43:27,266 --> 00:43:32,346

like, narcissistic family systems, a

desire to have a partner who fits a

721

00:43:32,376 --> 00:43:38,316

mold that their family has given them,

um, as this is what an attractive

722

00:43:38,336 --> 00:43:40,366

or valuable partner looks like.

723

00:43:41,126 --> 00:43:45,351

And so, I can also imagine that

if a partner starts to, you know,

724

00:43:45,351 --> 00:43:51,021

age and kind of stop looking like

that, they're sort of unprocessed

725

00:43:51,301 --> 00:43:53,341

trauma from that family system.

726

00:43:53,591 --> 00:43:57,791

The internal narcissist starts to speak

up and say, this is not acceptable

727

00:43:57,871 --> 00:43:59,311

and this does not make me look good.

728

00:44:00,201 --> 00:44:02,291

And then that starts to

come out on the partner.

729

00:44:02,891 --> 00:44:05,821

And that's the piece where I just

like, again, my heart breaks is

730

00:44:06,271 --> 00:44:09,051

where some of these things are

being spoken to the partner.

731

00:44:09,546 --> 00:44:09,986

Right?

732

00:44:09,986 --> 00:44:13,206

Without the person actually

looking at what's underneath that.

733

00:44:16,266 --> 00:44:22,016

Jessi Kneeland: I actually do pretty

regularly if a client has like a previous

734

00:44:22,026 --> 00:44:27,026

history of being criticized or picked

apart for their body by a partner.

735

00:44:27,486 --> 00:44:31,526

Um, sometimes we'll go back in and

look for the context that maybe their

736

00:44:32,416 --> 00:44:37,326

image, emotionally immature partner

was unable to voice when he said like,

737

00:44:37,736 --> 00:44:39,246

I don't know, your thighs are gross.

738

00:44:39,506 --> 00:44:40,986

Like, what could it have meant?

739

00:44:41,286 --> 00:44:49,366

It's not exactly helpful always to try to

understand someone who's just being unkind

740

00:44:49,366 --> 00:44:53,466

or disrespectful, but there are times

where just going in and understanding

741

00:44:53,466 --> 00:45:02,671

that they were basically using you in

a way that Like is unacceptable or that

742

00:45:02,671 --> 00:45:06,141

they were holding you to a standard or

wanting to control you so that you would

743

00:45:06,141 --> 00:45:09,621

make them look good Really understanding

that again, it takes the pressure off of

744

00:45:09,621 --> 00:45:14,361

you to have smaller thighs and it makes

it like, oh, okay I can see that that

745

00:45:14,361 --> 00:45:20,946

wasn't on me But yeah, I think that that

That's a really tricky one, especially

746

00:45:20,946 --> 00:45:24,286

when it's the person I'm working with

is feeling all these things starting

747

00:45:24,286 --> 00:45:27,716

to rise up and it's so dark and shamey

and they're like, I don't want to be

748

00:45:27,716 --> 00:45:33,836

like this, but I kind of want him to

check this box and fulfill this status.

749

00:45:33,836 --> 00:45:38,431

And, you know, like, Make my family

proud of me and all these things that

750

00:45:38,431 --> 00:45:43,721

are just so big and once you really

name them so dark Because you wouldn't

751

00:45:43,731 --> 00:45:47,351

normally go around being like, yeah,

I pick people to make me look good But

752

00:45:47,381 --> 00:45:49,291

when it's under there, it's under there

753

00:45:49,451 --> 00:45:52,201

Jessica Engle: Yeah Again, the

darkest of the dark with some of these

754

00:45:52,231 --> 00:45:54,341

with relationships with body image

755

00:45:58,991 --> 00:46:01,851

Josh Van Vliet: You'll called in this

moment to remind folks that if you're

756

00:46:01,851 --> 00:46:05,741

experiencing that Having that thought

doesn't mean anything about you.

757

00:46:06,421 --> 00:46:06,931

Right.

758

00:46:07,161 --> 00:46:10,591

It's just so important

to see that it's there.

759

00:46:10,801 --> 00:46:14,521

So that you don't keep doing

the things that are causing

760

00:46:14,521 --> 00:46:15,491

harm in your relationship.

761

00:46:16,221 --> 00:46:21,706

But just, yeah, recognizing that

is such a painful And, and not

762

00:46:21,716 --> 00:46:24,424

life giving way of approaching it.

763

00:46:26,254 --> 00:46:26,864

Jessi Kneeland: It is.

764

00:46:27,174 --> 00:46:29,314

And nobody just invented

it out of nowhere.

765

00:46:29,314 --> 00:46:29,454

Right.

766

00:46:29,744 --> 00:46:30,764

You have that thought.

767

00:46:30,774 --> 00:46:32,084

That probably happened to you.

768

00:46:32,234 --> 00:46:34,904

And there's a good reason

that that wound up in there.

769

00:46:35,314 --> 00:46:36,584

Um, so I totally agree.

770

00:46:36,584 --> 00:46:38,214

There's no, there's no shame in it.

771

00:46:38,234 --> 00:46:40,444

It can feel really dark

and scary to admit.

772

00:46:40,844 --> 00:46:45,264

I've had plenty of those moments in my

own relationship stuff where I'm like,

773

00:46:45,304 --> 00:46:50,164

oh man, I'm doing the thing I would judge

anyone else ever for doing right now.

774

00:46:50,674 --> 00:46:54,064

And it's a strategy I learned

somewhere and now I have to unlearn it.

775

00:46:55,474 --> 00:46:56,514

A whole thing now.

776

00:46:56,854 --> 00:47:01,144

Um, but yeah, it also, I

think it's an invitation.

777

00:47:01,154 --> 00:47:03,764

It's an invitation to go

deeper and figure out what.

778

00:47:04,469 --> 00:47:05,519

is going on.

779

00:47:05,699 --> 00:47:09,239

If you want the kind of relationship that

really is, as you say, like life affirming

780

00:47:10,219 --> 00:47:14,359

or nourishing, um, you're gonna have to go

in there and see what's going on and maybe

781

00:47:14,369 --> 00:47:17,589

the person really isn't a good fit for

any number of reasons and you chose them

782

00:47:17,599 --> 00:47:21,779

from a place that you don't necessarily

still want to be choosing from.

783

00:47:22,209 --> 00:47:26,769

But often it's just, it's a matter

of, uh, owning the, owning your

784

00:47:26,769 --> 00:47:27,989

side of the street, basically.

785

00:47:30,349 --> 00:47:33,049

And then showing up and

letting that be enough.

786

00:47:33,799 --> 00:47:39,809

Jessica Engle: I'm also thinking about

relationship milestones and how our

787

00:47:39,809 --> 00:47:44,049

attachment material gets activated

when we cross certain thresholds.

788

00:47:44,059 --> 00:47:49,149

So, when we become exclusive,

when we move in together, when we

789

00:47:49,159 --> 00:47:50,959

get engaged, when we have kiddos.

790

00:47:51,409 --> 00:47:55,029

More trauma material just

naturally gets activated.

791

00:47:55,279 --> 00:48:00,269

And so, just wanting to encourage

the listener to really notice when

792

00:48:00,279 --> 00:48:02,139

these things are, are, are popping up.

793

00:48:02,149 --> 00:48:05,099

When am I starting to have these

thoughts about my partner that

794

00:48:05,619 --> 00:48:08,349

do not feel like they are me?

795

00:48:08,489 --> 00:48:10,639

They do not feel aligned with my values.

796

00:48:11,174 --> 00:48:15,254

Is it coinciding with something

that maybe is touching on some

797

00:48:15,264 --> 00:48:20,644

younger stuff that you just can't

consciously acknowledge or process?

798

00:48:20,644 --> 00:48:23,724

And so it's being projected

onto your partner in some way.

799

00:48:24,743 --> 00:48:28,463

Jessi Kneeland: I will also say

that we tend to judge our partners

800

00:48:28,473 --> 00:48:32,783

harshly when, uh, we have unmet needs.

801

00:48:33,833 --> 00:48:39,313

that we are feeling resentful or hurt

or abandoned or whatever other unneeds,

802

00:48:39,313 --> 00:48:40,563

uh, needs that we have are going unmet.

803

00:48:41,243 --> 00:48:45,683

So if you catch yourself being especially

critical about them, their appearance,

804

00:48:45,693 --> 00:48:49,113

how they got, you know, into this

state, whatever it might be, or, or

805

00:48:49,113 --> 00:48:53,623

feeling like that stuff is very loud

that would be a great time to slow down

806

00:48:53,643 --> 00:48:58,783

and notice, like, What needs might have

gone unmet for a while here at that?

807

00:48:59,593 --> 00:49:04,463

I mean anger is like a super useful

tool for coping with vulnerability

808

00:49:04,623 --> 00:49:07,133

in a lot of ways so it makes

sense that it would come up.

809

00:49:07,633 --> 00:49:12,263

And then other times it goes the complete

opposite direction and it's like the

810

00:49:12,263 --> 00:49:16,333

unmet needs and the vulnerability

lead you to blame yourself and now

811

00:49:16,333 --> 00:49:19,693

maybe you're having a complete body

image meltdown, a shame spiral, you're

812

00:49:19,693 --> 00:49:23,933

blaming yourself for being a failure or

unworthy and it's kind of the same thing.

813

00:49:24,123 --> 00:49:24,563

Like.

814

00:49:24,993 --> 00:49:26,113

You have unmet needs.

815

00:49:26,653 --> 00:49:30,553

And it's just painful to have unmet needs

with someone that you care about so much.

816

00:49:31,033 --> 00:49:35,023

So these things often rise up or

cover up for those things as well.

817

00:49:36,125 --> 00:49:40,435

Josh Van Vliet: Going back to something

you said a moment ago, Jessi, it made

818

00:49:40,435 --> 00:49:44,480

so much sense to me when you were

saying If it's just about attraction,

819

00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,030

like physical attraction or body

changing, you have nowhere to go, right?

820

00:49:48,540 --> 00:49:55,213

And in, in like the system of the couple,

of the, of the relationship, if you stop

821

00:49:55,233 --> 00:49:57,293

there, number one, you have nowhere to go.

822

00:49:57,353 --> 00:50:02,273

And, and then you're also usually like

causing harm to your partner, right?

823

00:50:02,283 --> 00:50:06,948

It's, it, it can be very painful to have

somebody say, I'm no longer attracted

824

00:50:06,948 --> 00:50:10,098

to you because you've gained weight or

because you have wrinkles or because you

825

00:50:10,098 --> 00:50:15,018

know whatever xyz change in your body so

it's it's like both you're causing harm

826

00:50:15,028 --> 00:50:19,548

and there's no there's no like possible

path forward and when we drop down to

827

00:50:19,568 --> 00:50:24,828

that lower like what's underneath that

what's going on the relationship it's

828

00:50:24,828 --> 00:50:32,478

occurring to me like attraction is is kind

of never a one sided thing i'm curious

829

00:50:32,478 --> 00:50:36,058

if you agree with this i'm thinking this

out loud as i'm saying it but In the

830

00:50:36,058 --> 00:50:37,848

sense, like, we're in a system, right?

831

00:50:37,848 --> 00:50:40,188

There's a, there's a relationship

happening, and what you're naming

832

00:50:40,188 --> 00:50:43,208

about, yeah, there's something

happening where I don't feel safe,

833

00:50:43,228 --> 00:50:45,508

maybe, in the relationship, or

there's not emotional intimacy

834

00:50:45,508 --> 00:50:48,308

present anymore because we've stopped

connecting with each other regularly.

835

00:50:48,858 --> 00:50:51,358

Uh, there's like, something in the

system is happening that's, that

836

00:50:51,358 --> 00:50:57,068

needs to be addressed between the two

of you that you know, becomes like,

837

00:50:57,078 --> 00:51:01,188

okay, there's something we can get

curious about together to reconnect.

838

00:51:01,418 --> 00:51:08,573

erotically or sensually, that isn't like

you've changed, you're bad, or, or it's

839

00:51:08,573 --> 00:51:13,523

on me because, you know, I'm embodying

the patriarchy or these unrealistic, you

840

00:51:13,523 --> 00:51:17,133

know, ideals of beauty and it's all my

fault for, you know, it's like, oh no,

841

00:51:17,133 --> 00:51:21,653

there's something in the system that's

happening here that we can get creative

842

00:51:21,653 --> 00:51:25,213

about together to connect and, and engage.

843

00:51:27,878 --> 00:51:30,738

Jessi Kneeland: So I think what

you're getting at is the fact that

844

00:51:32,428 --> 00:51:37,748

desire in long term relationship is

something that can and should and

845

00:51:37,748 --> 00:51:40,188

maybe even must be cultivated together.

846

00:51:41,098 --> 00:51:47,138

It is not something that just comes and

goes and you get it when you get it or I

847

00:51:47,138 --> 00:51:50,938

should say maybe it is that too but it's

not the same thing as like chemistry in

848

00:51:50,938 --> 00:51:54,748

the beginning or like you know that sort

of spontaneous like spark with someone

849

00:51:55,178 --> 00:52:02,028

which is very chemically induced and

also Just based on other stuff, uh, a lot

850

00:52:02,028 --> 00:52:05,728

of times projections of how you imagine

the person to be, but you know, there's

851

00:52:05,758 --> 00:52:06,978

other stuff going on in the beginning.

852

00:52:07,158 --> 00:52:09,478

But when you're in a long term

relationship, I think a lot of

853

00:52:09,478 --> 00:52:12,098

times the spark dies, or at least

that's how people think of it.

854

00:52:12,098 --> 00:52:15,868

They think they're less attracted to each

other because they just never learned that

855

00:52:15,868 --> 00:52:18,348

desire was a thing you could cultivate.

856

00:52:18,758 --> 00:52:24,578

Or that there was literally any agency

inside of the, each individual and

857

00:52:24,578 --> 00:52:31,453

the partnership itself to, And there's

so much we can do to impact it,

858

00:52:31,463 --> 00:52:35,323

including communicate about all the

stuff we've just sort of named because

859

00:52:35,323 --> 00:52:36,703

that's stuff that'll get in the way.

860

00:52:37,163 --> 00:52:41,523

But even just like exploring pleasure.

861

00:52:42,243 --> 00:52:48,033

and making it a sex life that's

based on something other than just

862

00:52:48,063 --> 00:52:52,253

the spark of spontaneous desire

or chemistry, that's a skill.

863

00:52:54,063 --> 00:52:57,873

And the couples who have it long term

have probably cultivated it, whether

864

00:52:57,873 --> 00:53:02,113

they're aware of it or not, because

most of the time that's just, it's not

865

00:53:02,113 --> 00:53:03,963

just going to stick around magically.

866

00:53:05,348 --> 00:53:05,628

Well, if I

867

00:53:05,628 --> 00:53:08,418

Jessica Engle: find, if I find the

perfect person, Jessi, it will.

868

00:53:09,898 --> 00:53:12,658

Jessi Kneeland: You know, actually,

if you look perfect and then find the

869

00:53:12,658 --> 00:53:14,768

perfect person, then it will be there.

870

00:53:15,038 --> 00:53:19,048

And honestly, that's a lot of

body image issues in partnership.

871

00:53:19,058 --> 00:53:23,508

It's often like the fantasy that

they're, they're wanting so badly is

872

00:53:23,508 --> 00:53:30,788

that if I looked better, if I looked

right we would still have uh, the kind

873

00:53:30,788 --> 00:53:35,508

of sparky desire and erotic life that

we used to have or that I wish we had.

874

00:53:35,958 --> 00:53:38,448

And, and again, that just comes

from a feeling of complete

875

00:53:38,458 --> 00:53:41,828

disempowerment, feeling like they

have no way of impacting that.

876

00:53:42,208 --> 00:53:47,008

So as they build that skill, and many

skills inside that skill, um, a lot

877

00:53:47,008 --> 00:53:50,488

of times the pressure to look quote

unquote perfect just sort of fades away.

878

00:53:51,018 --> 00:53:53,438

Jessica Engle: Yeah, I feel like

what I'm hearing is the through

879

00:53:53,438 --> 00:53:54,868

line in all we're talking about.

880

00:53:55,243 --> 00:53:56,183

around body images.

881

00:53:56,243 --> 00:54:00,343

A lot of people, their experience

of their body image, uh, of other

882

00:54:00,343 --> 00:54:03,703

people's bodies comes from this

sort of external locus of control.

883

00:54:03,753 --> 00:54:07,753

I'm not in control of what

other people think of me, what I

884

00:54:07,763 --> 00:54:12,143

think of other people's bodies,

and it's very objectifying.

885

00:54:12,283 --> 00:54:16,153

It's sort of, um, What I think is

what I think, versus Josh, what you

886

00:54:16,153 --> 00:54:19,093

described, like, collaborative, right?

887

00:54:19,353 --> 00:54:23,683

We go into the relationship knowing

that we can co create desire, and

888

00:54:23,683 --> 00:54:25,483

there's that internal locus of control.

889

00:54:25,513 --> 00:54:29,953

I actually have a lot of control

over how I feel about your body

890

00:54:29,963 --> 00:54:31,233

and how I feel about my body.

891

00:54:31,823 --> 00:54:34,943

Maybe not moment by moment I can

control what my thoughts are, but

892

00:54:34,963 --> 00:54:38,453

ultimately we have the capacity to be

curious together and build that skill

893

00:54:38,453 --> 00:54:44,773

set, which is, again, I think such

a like invigorating, hopeful frame.

894

00:54:45,903 --> 00:54:46,683

Jessi Kneeland: Definitely.

895

00:54:47,530 --> 00:54:52,100

Yeah, I was, uh, I was telling someone

recently that they're asking about like,

896

00:54:52,110 --> 00:54:57,870

you know, long term key to desire because

they've often experienced a lot of sex

897

00:54:57,870 --> 00:55:00,980

and chemistry in the beginning and then

it like falls away and they just start

898

00:55:01,190 --> 00:55:04,750

not into it anymore, which is a very

common pattern for a lot of reasons.

899

00:55:05,190 --> 00:55:10,475

But Yeah, so she was just asking me like,

you know, what do I think the key is, or

900

00:55:10,475 --> 00:55:13,525

whatever, how do you keep it interesting,

I don't remember how she asked it, but

901

00:55:13,525 --> 00:55:17,505

I was like, I don't know how else to

put this, other than to say like, cause

902

00:55:17,515 --> 00:55:21,015

she was asking about my partner and I,

I was like, our sex life is like our

903

00:55:21,015 --> 00:55:22,575

fav it's our favorite shared hobby.

904

00:55:23,060 --> 00:55:24,060

It's a hobby.

905

00:55:24,260 --> 00:55:29,040

And like any hobby, we're constantly like,

talking about it, learning new things,

906

00:55:29,050 --> 00:55:33,920

you know, like sharing stuff that comes

up and, uh, practicing, you know, and

907

00:55:33,930 --> 00:55:36,470

trying like you would with any hobby.

908

00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,280

And he and I don't share a lot of hobbies.

909

00:55:39,330 --> 00:55:42,530

So it's kind of our main one

and it's my favorite one.

910

00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:47,370

But like that approach was

never, I've never grew up with

911

00:55:47,370 --> 00:55:49,200

anyone talking about it that way.

912

00:55:50,105 --> 00:55:51,795

We just don't think of it that way.

913

00:55:51,795 --> 00:55:56,275

We think of it as something that sort

of just like happens magically if

914

00:55:56,275 --> 00:55:59,235

you're hot enough and um, and that's it.

915

00:56:00,085 --> 00:56:05,045

And that's so limiting, disempowering,

and just a massive bummer because

916

00:56:06,075 --> 00:56:07,495

it's awesome to make it a hobby.

917

00:56:07,495 --> 00:56:09,325

Like intimacy as a hobby is.

918

00:56:09,390 --> 00:56:10,930

10 out of 10, recommend.

919

00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:13,310

Josh Van Vliet: I love

that way of putting it.

920

00:56:13,340 --> 00:56:14,790

That way of looking at it.

921

00:56:14,850 --> 00:56:15,900

It's so good.

922

00:56:15,970 --> 00:56:19,550

And you're so right, like, nobody

teaches that as a way of like,

923

00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:21,910

desire, attraction, intimacy.

924

00:56:22,340 --> 00:56:24,260

Could be a thing that

you actually cultivate.

925

00:56:24,350 --> 00:56:26,380

Could be like your favorite

hobby with your sweetie.

926

00:56:26,460 --> 00:56:30,510

Like, what a, what a like,

fun way of, of approaching it.

927

00:56:31,725 --> 00:56:36,385

Jessi Kneeland: Yeah, and it just,

I think once you feel a little bit

928

00:56:36,385 --> 00:56:41,385

more empowered in that space, it's

almost impossible for body image to

929

00:56:41,415 --> 00:56:45,965

take up the same, to like hold, to

be on the same pedestal basically.

930

00:56:46,495 --> 00:56:49,145

Because it's a stand in,

it's that shortcut button.

931

00:56:49,490 --> 00:56:51,880

Both for yourself and for your partner.

932

00:56:51,890 --> 00:56:56,550

It's like, if I want to feel aroused

instead of asking my partner to learn

933

00:56:56,550 --> 00:57:02,860

how to arouse me better, I'll just either

judge them for not being hot enough,

934

00:57:03,060 --> 00:57:08,300

or for gaining weight or whatever, or

I'll judge myself for not making him do

935

00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:10,240

the things properly and read my mind.

936

00:57:10,290 --> 00:57:14,900

Like, it's a terrible shortcut,

but it is often how that functions.

937

00:57:17,060 --> 00:57:20,650

Jessica Engle: Reminds me a little bit

of Stan Tatkin talks about partners

938

00:57:20,650 --> 00:57:27,350

who complain that they're bored in

a relationship often are boring in

939

00:57:27,350 --> 00:57:32,360

the sense that they have disengaged

on some level because another person

940

00:57:32,380 --> 00:57:34,890

is a constantly evolving organism.

941

00:57:35,660 --> 00:57:38,170

It's not possible to be bored

if you're paying attention.

942

00:57:38,660 --> 00:57:41,700

to another person's evolution and

to the relationship's evolution.

943

00:57:42,645 --> 00:57:46,335

So just, yeah, like reframing,

like, okay, if there's no

944

00:57:46,335 --> 00:57:49,185

spark, where am I not engaging?

945

00:57:50,745 --> 00:57:53,665

What have I numbed out from here?

946

00:57:53,835 --> 00:57:55,585

What am I maybe not saying?

947

00:57:55,865 --> 00:57:58,974

Jessi Kneeland: Yeah,

I definitely see that.

948

00:57:58,974 --> 00:58:02,514

I also, I'm gonna give you just a little

pushback here, and maybe I'm wrong,

949

00:58:02,514 --> 00:58:05,804

but this thought is coming, like, I

think that I could be bored by people.

950

00:58:05,834 --> 00:58:08,714

They just wouldn't be the people I

ended up choosing to partner with.

951

00:58:09,424 --> 00:58:14,594

Like, I think there is Probably some,

some people could bore you, but assuming

952

00:58:14,594 --> 00:58:20,024

that they didn't in the beginning

and they start to, something has

953

00:58:20,024 --> 00:58:23,254

shifted and that something is not who

they fundamentally are as a person.

954

00:58:24,224 --> 00:58:24,544

Jessica Engle: Yeah.

955

00:58:24,994 --> 00:58:25,694

I agree with that.

956

00:58:25,694 --> 00:58:25,984

I'll give you

957

00:58:25,984 --> 00:58:26,274

Jessi Kneeland: that.

958

00:58:27,594 --> 00:58:28,204

I like that.

959

00:58:29,814 --> 00:58:30,114

Yeah.

960

00:58:30,114 --> 00:58:38,064

I definitely feel like there's, yeah,

there's so much disconnection that we, I

961

00:58:38,064 --> 00:58:40,014

guess part of this is patriarchal stuff.

962

00:58:40,014 --> 00:58:43,144

Like I should never be too needy

or men won't like me kind of stuff

963

00:58:43,144 --> 00:58:44,044

that a lot of my clients don't like.

964

00:58:44,354 --> 00:58:45,534

Deal with, and of course, men.

965

00:58:46,129 --> 00:58:49,039

in their own way aren't supposed

to be needy either, so basically

966

00:58:49,039 --> 00:58:50,609

nobody gets to be all the way there.

967

00:58:51,279 --> 00:58:55,559

But yeah, I think there's a lot of

disconnection that comes subtly over

968

00:58:55,569 --> 00:59:01,099

time and makes people just feel like,

well, since they're not pushing us into

969

00:59:01,099 --> 00:59:05,189

a closer, more intimate, more connected

space, clearly this is what they want.

970

00:59:05,959 --> 00:59:08,999

And feeling like it would be

unwelcome for you to go in and be

971

00:59:08,999 --> 00:59:11,229

like, I want More conversations.

972

00:59:11,249 --> 00:59:12,919

I want more connected sex.

973

00:59:12,929 --> 00:59:15,449

I want us to, like, know each other again.

974

00:59:16,089 --> 00:59:20,659

Those not only feel unwelcome,

they feel like they would, um, be a

975

00:59:20,659 --> 00:59:22,129

massive burden on the other person.

976

00:59:22,139 --> 00:59:24,419

Even if they're both separately,

which I think is often the case,

977

00:59:24,419 --> 00:59:25,959

both separately desperate for it.

978

00:59:26,909 --> 00:59:30,039

They both feel like, well, this

is obviously what they want.

979

00:59:31,089 --> 00:59:35,059

And I think that kind of disconnect

is really, it's harder to name

980

00:59:35,059 --> 00:59:36,469

than something that goes wrong.

981

00:59:36,779 --> 00:59:39,829

You know, if you have like a

major life transformation and

982

00:59:39,829 --> 00:59:42,289

you're like, Oh, ever since the

baby, we haven't been having sex.

983

00:59:42,289 --> 00:59:43,729

It's un understandable.

984

00:59:43,739 --> 00:59:45,029

Like the concept makes sense.

985

00:59:45,359 --> 00:59:48,319

It's a lot harder to be like, we

slowly stopped knowing each other

986

00:59:48,329 --> 00:59:53,849

and I feel lonely at home and I don't

want to have sex from that place.

987

00:59:53,859 --> 00:59:57,899

But also I feel scared of doing anything

about it because it feels so vulnerable

988

00:59:57,899 --> 01:00:02,549

to go in and be like, I don't know

what, I don't know who you are anymore.

989

01:00:02,549 --> 01:00:03,009

Yeah.

990

01:00:03,679 --> 01:00:04,849

Or I don't feel seen by you.

991

01:00:05,464 --> 01:00:05,774

Yeah,

992

01:00:05,774 --> 01:00:10,154

Jessica Engle: that can feel so risky,

and I'm thinking about people who grow

993

01:00:10,154 --> 01:00:15,484

up in homes where there is less abuse

and more neglect, and it can be easy

994

01:00:15,484 --> 01:00:19,904

to slip into that kind of slightly

dissociated, not being totally honest

995

01:00:19,904 --> 01:00:22,494

space because that's what feels normal.

996

01:00:23,204 --> 01:00:28,829

And so it can actually be You know, trauma

work to speak up in a dynamic like that.

997

01:00:29,807 --> 01:00:33,257

Jessi Kneeland: Totally, and I

think there's also a tricky aspect

998

01:00:33,257 --> 01:00:37,977

of that is that like in a healthy

supportive relationship there needs

999

01:00:37,977 --> 01:00:40,787

to be a spaciousness and a patience,

right, because you're not going to

1000

01:00:40,797 --> 01:00:43,377

be connected all the time every day

feeling seen and all the things.

1001

01:00:43,827 --> 01:00:48,217

So I do feel like there's um, it often

comes from a really lovely impulse to

1002

01:00:48,217 --> 01:00:52,862

like be compassionate toward whatever

their partner's going through or not to

1003

01:00:52,902 --> 01:00:56,892

burden them when things are especially

stressful, but then it often becomes

1004

01:00:56,892 --> 01:01:02,642

these long tails of disconnect, these

sort of slow fadeaways on both sides.

1005

01:01:03,861 --> 01:01:04,361

Josh Van Vliet: Mm.

1006

01:01:04,771 --> 01:01:07,321

Well, I feel like I could talk

with you about this for hours,

1007

01:01:07,321 --> 01:01:09,231

Jessi, and, uh, I know I'm down.

1008

01:01:09,831 --> 01:01:11,611

I know we probably have

other things to do today.

1009

01:01:11,661 --> 01:01:15,551

Uh, is there anything else that either of

you want to touch on before we, we move

1010

01:01:15,551 --> 01:01:18,201

towards closing for, for today at least?

1011

01:01:19,150 --> 01:01:22,130

Jessica Engle: No, just to say

thank you to, to you, Jessi.

1012

01:01:22,150 --> 01:01:28,470

I, your mind's brilliant and I just love

like slicing and dicing ideas with you.

1013

01:01:29,155 --> 01:01:30,035

Jessi Kneeland: Thank you.

1014

01:01:30,775 --> 01:01:34,005

Um, I feel the same and I could

literally do this for the rest

1015

01:01:34,005 --> 01:01:35,755

of the afternoon pretty happily.

1016

01:01:35,755 --> 01:01:42,525

So, uh, Yeah, no, I can't think of

anything, but I do feel like, um, I don't

1017

01:01:42,525 --> 01:01:46,885

know exactly what your listenership, like

where they're at in their journeys, but

1018

01:01:46,895 --> 01:01:55,345

if they are In a place of feeling like

it's just that they're undeserving or

1019

01:01:55,345 --> 01:01:59,125

nobody's going to choose them because of

how they look or they really just aren't

1020

01:01:59,125 --> 01:02:01,845

attracted to their partner anymore because

of how they look or they really are going

1021

01:02:01,845 --> 01:02:03,195

to be abandoned because of how they look.

1022

01:02:03,525 --> 01:02:08,625

Like, just know that it makes sense

that those thoughts got in there.

1023

01:02:09,205 --> 01:02:10,055

Because it does.

1024

01:02:11,015 --> 01:02:12,935

And that doesn't make them true.

1025

01:02:13,745 --> 01:02:16,855

And I promise you there's a world of

interesting things if you get curious

1026

01:02:16,855 --> 01:02:20,065

about it instead of feeling like you

already know the answer and it's this.

1027

01:02:21,032 --> 01:02:23,002

Josh Van Vliet: Such a sweet,

hopeful note to leave folks on.

1028

01:02:23,002 --> 01:02:23,442

I love it.

1029

01:02:24,022 --> 01:02:26,572

Jessica Engle: Jessi, if people want

to find you, how do they do that?

1030

01:02:29,652 --> 01:02:32,212

Jessi Kneeland: They can find me,

my website is Jessikneeland.Com.

1031

01:02:32,232 --> 01:02:35,952

So I have all my information there

about coaching courses, blog, et cetera.

1032

01:02:36,452 --> 01:02:41,972

And then I'm active on Instagram and

TikTok at Jessineeland and also YouTube.

1033

01:02:42,242 --> 01:02:45,312

And as you mentioned in the intro of my

podcast, this is not about your body.

1034

01:02:46,312 --> 01:02:46,662

Awesome.

1035

01:02:47,012 --> 01:02:49,752

Josh Van Vliet: We'll include links

to all of that in the show notes.

1036

01:02:52,022 --> 01:02:52,572

Beautiful.

1037

01:02:52,632 --> 01:02:54,892

Um, well, thank you so

much, Jessi, for joining us.

1038

01:02:54,972 --> 01:02:56,952

That is all for today, folks.

1039

01:02:57,312 --> 01:03:00,762

Um, as I just mentioned, you'll find

links to all the resources we mentioned

1040

01:03:00,772 --> 01:03:04,392

in today's episode in the show notes,

as well as at relationshipcenter.

1041

01:03:04,392 --> 01:03:05,522

com slash

1042

01:03:05,552 --> 01:03:06,372

Jessica Engle: podcast.

1043

01:03:06,982 --> 01:03:07,332

Yes.

1044

01:03:07,352 --> 01:03:09,962

And dear listener, if something

in this episode touched you,

1045

01:03:09,972 --> 01:03:12,792

will you please leave us a rating

and a review in Apple podcasts?

1046

01:03:13,837 --> 01:03:17,057

That helps us reach more

sweet humans like you.

1047

01:03:17,717 --> 01:03:18,057

And until

1048

01:03:18,057 --> 01:03:19,527

Josh Van Vliet: next

time, we love you too.

1049

01:03:20,027 --> 01:03:20,857

Bye!

1050

01:03:20,857 --> 01:03:33,947

Jessi Kneeland: You

1051

01:03:50,250 --> 01:03:51,280

guys are adorable.

1052

01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:55,220

Jessica Engle: You