This Reformation Day, join hosts Dwight Zscheile and Terri Elton for a transformative conversation with the Rev. Dr. Mark Tranvik, professor of Reformation history and theology at Luther Seminary. Explore how Martin Luther's revolutionary insights from the Protestant Reformation can breathe new life into 21st-century ministry and address the challenges facing today's church.

Dr. Tranvik unpacks key Reformation concepts like grace, vocation, and Christian freedom, revealing their surprising relevance for contemporary issues such as leadership burnout, rigid church structures, and the shift towards lay-led ministry. Discover how reclaiming Luther's emphasis on the "priesthood of all believers" can empower your congregation to live out their faith in fresh, meaningful ways this Reformation Day and beyond.

YouTube Video URL: https://youtu.be/QoOw2TX09mo.

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Q4 Webinar: The Path from “I” to “We”: Extending Christian Community to the Neighborhood

Mark Tranvik: One of the things Luther liked to stress was that, um, our good works don't save us. Okay. And in our day and age, I often get a sense that, um, we are investing in things outside of us, especially in the political realm where we kind of expect salvation from them. And politics is really important. Luther recognized that in his day, but they aren't God. And therefore, what that means is that we are free even in the political realm, in the cultural realm, whether this is on the right or whether it's on the left, we're free to debate, to discuss, to think about what is the best thing for our culture, for our society, for our neighbor, especially that neighbor who might be hurting. But also we recognize because we're not saved by the solution we come up with. It's at best a human solution. It's at best a partial solution. We're not saved by that solution. And therefore we could be wrong.

Dwight Zscheile: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile and I'm joined by Terri Elton.

Terri Elton: Today is a special day. It's Reformation Day, which makes it the perfect time to welcome our special guest, doctor Mark Tranvik, and he's here to discuss what we can learn from the Reformation for the church today. Mark is a professor of Reformation history and theology here at Luther Seminary, and the insights of the Reformation can maybe seem like a given to some of us in the Protestant church, but we live in a culture that has deeply contrasting values and commitments in many ways. So we wanted to invite Mark here to reflect with us on how the Reformation actually could be a source of good news and renewal for today's church. But it's also to think about what might be its limitations in today's context. Mark, welcome to the Pivot podcast. Thanks.

Mark Tranvik: It's really nice to be here.

Dwight Zscheile: So, Mark, as we celebrate Reformation Day, why does the reformation of 500 years ago matter today?

Mark Tranvik: It's a great question. I think it matters today because I think people are searching today for a core, for an identity, and they're often looking in the wrong places, um, places that our culture certainly approves and encourages, but places that often lead to a dead end, um, that search for that core. Everybody lives by some kind of core, right? That search for that core. What Luther might have said 500 years ago, you're God, um, um, in our day and age usually revolves around maybe your image, how you look, how you feel. How much money you make. Your status in society. Um. How well your kids are doing. How well your family's doing. And again, none of these are things are bad or, you know, ill advised. But the trouble is, when you invest too much in those sorts of things and those quote unquote gods, as we might say, um, they can't deliver the goods. They fail to satisfy, uh, as Luther would say. And here he probably is picking up on some of the things he learned from Augustine, who lived a thousand years before Luther. So I'm, you know, going back into the past, but the past has relevance here. Um, I think he would say that the problem with these things is that they are caught in time. They're going to pass away, they aren't going to last. And therefore, inevitably, they're also going to disappoint. And so, um, um, I think the, the search for identity. The search for a core. The need for a core, which we all have. Um. That was certainly present in Luther's time. 500 years ago. And of course, that got expressed in a culture very different from ours, and it got expressed in language that was often very churchy and the reflected, of course, that period of time. But the underlying core, the underlying search, I think, remains the same. And therefore Luther's answer, which he found in Jesus Christ, um, in many ways is the best way to address this search. Um, um, yeah, I can say one other thing about that, too. Let me just sort of think about this in a different kind of way. Um, and I hope this doesn't sound too abstract, but we're all, we're all we're all, um, caught up in a problem with time. Now, I know, I know, that sounds really abstract, but let me try to make it as concrete as possible. We struggle with time in the sense that we struggle with the past, and we also struggle with the future. And what happens is we get trapped in the past or we get trapped in the future. We get captured by them in the past. We get trapped in this way. Um, we get angry because of something someone did to us, and we stew on it and we think about it and it captures us, and it kind of locks us in the past. Or. Or we feel guilty because of something we did to someone else. And we also sort of ruminate on that. And we worry about that and we fret about that. But in any case, anger or guilt, we get trapped. Mm. The past is a way of trapping us or also the future. The future also is a way of capturing us or trapping us in the sense of worry, anxiety. What's going to happen? Will I be good enough? Um. Looking at our culture and society, what's going to happen in the political world and the international world? We get the future can overwhelm us with worry and anxiety. In either case, we get trapped in the past. We get trapped in the in the future. And what happens is we're not in the present. And when you're not in the present, you're not taking a look around. You're not appreciating God's good creation. You're also not probably of much value to your neighbour, whether that neighbour is your family member or somebody actually in your neighbourhood, a fellow student, whatever that might entail. Um, somebody more distant. Um, and what I think Luther's key insight was, is that we're saved by grace through faith alone. In other words, Christ, what Christ does is he defeats, if you will. He overcomes our concern with the past, with the word of forgiveness. You're forgiven and loved. We need to hear that. And also he comes along with a word about the future. He says, I've overcome death. Death is not the end. We're not moving through life to death. Rather, we're moving from death to life. And therefore, what faith does then when we hear those words, it returns us to the present. It makes us what we're supposed to be fully abundant, living human beings, alive in Christ and open now to the needs of the world and the and the needs of the neighbor. I'm going on and on about that one. But you I guess you triggered something.

Terri Elton: I love it. Yeah. And I also am kind of a little jealous that you were not teaching my history class when I was in seminary, but that's a side note. So I think often we think of reformation season in the about the church. The church needed to reform. Yeah. And I think you have rightly brought us to it's actually a faith question. It actually is about an understanding of God and how God is in our world. So Luther's basic question is different than ours, right? Probably in contextually, one of his core questions was, how do I find a gracious God? You've articulated some of that. What do you think as you reflect on today's culture and context? What is kind of the piece of the West? How does it speak into our time today? And because our context is not like it was in Europe or, you know, in the church of those times.

Mark Tranvik: Yeah, it speaks in a couple of ways. First of all, just reiterate what I said. I mean, I think Luther's basic question is that you're going to have a god. So what? You know, what's your god going to be? I think that translates well 500 years later. And this quest then, for identity, for a core that Luther certainly experienced in his own life, I think is something we also, um, struggle with and get trapped by. So I would say that the that Luther's reform has something to say that is very meaningful and real for, for people today that way. But also, I'd say as I look culturally, I think we get trapped, especially in our political realm. We get trapped by false solutions. We get trapped by certainty. One of the things, Luther, I think one of the things Luther liked to stress was that, um, our good works don't save us, okay? And in our day and age, I often get a sense that, um, we are investing in things outside of us, especially in the political realm where we kind of expect salvation from them. And politics is really important. Luther recognized that in his day, but they aren't God. And therefore what that means is that we are free even in the political realm, in the cultural realm, whether this is on the right or whether it's on the left. We're free to debate, to discuss, to think about what is the best thing for our culture, for our society, for our neighbor, especially that neighbor who might be hurting. But also we recognize because we're not saved by the solution we come up with. It's at best a human solution. It's at best a partial solution. We're not saved by that solution. And therefore we could be wrong. And I think this is much needed in our day and age. We've got to listen to the other side. We've got to be humble. I think, properly understood, Luther's way of understanding faith encourages communication questions, um, discussion. And I think that's sorely missing, especially in the political realm. But of course, this translates into all sorts of different areas as well when it comes to family relationships. Um, again, uh, the need or the, the ability or the I would say the the importance of dialing it down a little bit. And again, this isn't sort of an argument for the mushy middle, you know. Well everybody all sides are right. I got to listen to both sides and somehow the truce in the middle. No, we need to be passionate about our our need to serve the neighbor. Um, the neighbor is hurting, so. But but can we can we be both passionate and yet recognize that we could be wrong as well? And therefore we need to listen? So I think justification by grace through faith, that old formula which seems stuck in the 16th century, if you translate it, it has real power and vitality for thinking about not only how we think about the Christian faith, but also how we think about acting in the world today. A world that seems so determined to say that we have the right answer, and therefore we need not listen to anyone else.

Dwight Zscheile: Well. So, Mark, I'd love to draw you out a little more on some different dimensions of what you're describing. So in thinking about modern Western culture, where rather than assuming that we need God to save us, or even that God is this, you know, undeniable reality that we have to reckon with or be reconciled to. You know, the secular, modern West says we can save ourselves partly through the self, the state and the market, you know. And so and that leads then to this, this emphasis on kind of achievement and identity construction and, you know, earning, justifying, you know, one's. One's self and, and underneath that, it seems to me there's a deep exhaustion that's taking place in our culture at the moment as there's energy around, whether it be the political realm as you're describing, like we can find salvation through the right party politician, platform, whatever that might be, or through the right economic engine. I is going to do it for us or technology or whatever Silicon Valley or or through the self. Yeah. Speak into that a little bit. Um, how this emphasis on grace, which which I think still the church struggles to actually claim how radical that is because the church is, also gets caught in its own self-justifying schemes. Right? Even from Luther's day, even down to the present. But how can Luther help us be freed from that in this moment? Some of those, and particularly from that burnout, that that sense of exhaustion that people are experiencing. Yeah.

Mark Tranvik: And that sense, Dwight, you're right. That sense of exhaustion, that burnout seems so real. Um, and I think in part it comes back to some of the things I've already said with regard, but with regard to the self and the power of the self to construct a solution to the fundamental issues of life just is finally self-defeating, ironically, right? I mean, there's just with regard I mean, we have to we have to recognize the self does not possess that power without sort of turning it into somehow we need to run human beings down and make them feel about this high, so that a word of grace can come into the picture. That isn't a good solution. I think. Rather, what we need to think about is that, um, with regard to the self is that we need a new creation. Um, um, I think what has to happen as we speak, the truth of the gospel is that we're moving from this notion or this paradigm where we can progress a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, and then God gives us grace and then things will be all right. Is rather that Jesus Christ has ushered in a completely new reality. And that needs to be said loudly, clearly and forcefully with passion. And I don't hear that often in our churches. And I think that's what Luther got. Um, you have died and your life is now hid with Christ. It's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. He rang the changes on those great biblical sayings and the passion that was so evident in both his writing and his speaking, his preaching. Um, I think there's a sense in which that puts the self in its place, not as the not as the author of its own salvation, which just leads to trouble, because then you end up in these, you know, you're making lists or it's always how to or what I must do or what I must feel, or you're always, you're always in this construction process, but it's self-defeating in the sense that you're you never escape. So Luther's word was a word of freedom. Um, you're not okay. And that's okay. And guess what? Um. Now it's God's got something for you out there. So, um, um, freedom from this incessant sort of focus on the self. Uh, you know, um, this need to this this need to feel a certain way, uh, this, uh, I guess it's the escape from this continual desire to. I guess it's a therapeutic world where I was taking our pulse, and I just. It just usually never leads anywhere. Again, there are, of course, important dimensions to psychology. And there's important dimensions of therapy. I'm not trying to denigrate that, but the the focus on it. We live in the era of, as some people have said, psychological man or psychological person and um, and the self can't bear that weight. That scrutiny doesn't work, doesn't work. As you said, people are exhausted.

Terri Elton: So I appreciate the tapping into the agency question, What's God's agency in the world and what's ours? And I think your call around this that comes out of the Reformation is to tap into God's agency. And that's big. And I think in this secular age, we've shrunk that and we've replaced it with this big human agency. And you're calling us not only to shrink the human agency, but to redirect it. Yeah. To redirect that agency towards the neighbor and to the common good right of living an abundant life together. Um, and I think that is a word for us. That is, the times are different than than Martin Luther's. But that agency question still is key, right? Yeah. So I want to I'm a church person. I'm a ecclesial. Yeah. I love ecclesiology. We're not going to go into that lecture today. But the the Reformation is about reframing God, but it's also about inviting the church to think differently about itself. Yeah. Okay. So now is the time to say what can we learn? The church is facing big, huge adaptive challenges today. They are not the same as Martin Luther was. But how might this reformation framing help us think and be an asset for us as we think about the challenges that we as the church local and as the church global and throughout time faces?

Mark Tranvik: There's a sense in which I think what what the Reformation was arguing for Is almost a re-enchantment of the world, you know. I mean, the enlightenment's, you know, disenchanted the world, right? I mean, it made it very secular and explainable by science. And what we're trying to do here. I think one of the things the Reformation is trying to do is re-enchant the world. And by that kind of abstract language, I mean this, um, um, um, we're I think we're called to reinvest in an understanding of vocation or calling. And this is one of my special interests. But what I mean by that is that, um, we need to help people see that it is God's world. And this world is here not by accident, but because God wants it to be here. And also, you're not an accident, but God wants you to be here. And moreover, God loves you not because you're a preacher or because of your activity in the church. But God loves you because you are called 365 24 over seven in your daily life to live out the life that Christ has given you and and so and it also, you know, obviously reflects on creation as well. This isn't just a human centered thing, but also recognizing that the world. Huh. Is, is is in some way in, um, imbued in God is God is in creation, part of creation, full of creation. The world is full of the grandeur of God kind of thing. And there's a sense in which that has deep meaning for how we think about our relationship with creation, not only its beauty and an appreciation of it, but also the stewardship dimension and how we take care of it. So, um, I'd say for, you know, so the word perhaps for the church today, we struggle with buildings, we struggle with structures, we struggle with layers of accountability. And all those things are, of course, going to be with us. And very much realities. But so often they just capture us. And I think what Luther argued, right, was this word frees us and it frees us then. And I want to say something also. I think it's really important. Frees us to serve the neighbor. That's too abstract. The one who frees us is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ crossed lines. It's not just the neighbor in general or abstractly, but the neighbor who's poor, the neighbor who's been forgotten. The neighbor who has been somehow, somehow marginalized. The neighbor who's been rejected. The neighbor who's been overlooked. So the power, the passion that comes with Christ sending us into the world is the power and passion of this Jesus, who finally was rejected by us. And we can never, ever forget that that that passion, Christ's passion then becomes, in some sense our passion. But it's a way of framing how we look at the world as well. And in creation as well in whatever we might be doing as a grandparent, as a parent, as a worker, as a citizen, as a friend, all these all these dimensions of life. Let's re-enchant the world. Of course, it's an audacious thing to think about, but the gospel is audacious. Let's get our people thinking about it. What does it mean to actually live and participate in God's world, and not simply see it as some sort of, um, some sort of matter to be used for our own benefit?

Terri Elton: I think you invite us into one of the pivots that we talk about here, about especially around the mixed ecology, that so often our church conversations get to be about church and forming faith for a church. And and you're inviting the church in all of its expressions to say, what does it mean to be a community oriented toward this liberating Love that frees us to know who we are and to love as God would love in the world, right? That's a different gathered community, right? Doesn't care about the carpet or the building or white. And it loves the neighbor. And we we have a lot of conversations about what does it mean to be that kind of community.

Dwight Zscheile: So I want to follow up on that in a couple of ways. One is to think a little bit about ministry and about the reform of the church. So we have inherited various models of ministry, forms of how we do church institutional structures, many of whom were really designed for a different era than we find ourselves in right now. So to begin with, I'm curious, what are some resources within the Reformation to help us think about how to faithfully engage in reform of how we do church today, to serve some of these ends that you're talking about? Right. And and I want to, you know, bring in this concept from Lutheran theology of adiaphora. Which...

Terri Elton: Way to go, Episcopalian. I just want to know.

Dwight Zscheile: See, I learned my Lutheran being here. But. But which I just am always just stunned that very few Lutherans seem to really understand or claim the freedom of. So what is what is this whole idea of adiaphora? What does that word mean? How? How might the Reformation heritage free us to think creatively about adapting how we do church, in order that the gospel may speak and people might be equipped for the kind of vocation you're describing?

Mark Tranvik: Yeah. Good. Thank you. Adiaphora great. Right out of the confessional language, adiaphora literally means things indifferent. You've got to be careful, because that might seem like it's things that don't matter. They do matter. But it's a question of what really matters. And what really matters in the Lutheran tradition is this understanding, then, of Jesus Christ crucified and risen, and making sure we say that loudly and clearly, making sure people understand that they don't deserve it, and making sure that people understand they're given new agency in Christ now, new freedom in Christ, and also helping people understand that that comes not only through speaking, but it comes through word. I'm sorry. It comes through baptism. It comes through the Lord's Supper, and it comes through conversation and making, helping people to know that they too are equipped by this word in discussion. You know, one of the things that I'm often struck by is that, of course, as a preacher, I served a church for ten years. Um, you do a lot of funerals and, um, of course you preach. You hope you preach the word at those funerals. A word of comfort, a word of grace. But also, you know, where that word really takes root in my experience is that the lunches afterward, I'm not there. The people are there. They're talking with one another. Um, and often they're saying they're not just sort of glossing over things, but a funeral has made death real to them. And they're consoling the family, the children. Um, maybe it's the grandparents. Whatever the situation might be. Um, they are, um, the in other words, Jesus Christ, the word is working through them. So it's so, so getting back to your question, Adiaphora, the word and the sacraments in Lutheran terms are central. I want to be clear, though, that the word and sacraments are not just centered on clergy. Right? Um, the word gets preached, if you will, or spread by all sorts of different people. So there's a liberating part of that. And also there's a real need for us to equip Our Lady to see that they have the permission to do that. And not only permission, but it's really important that they do that because the body of Christ needs that. Otherwise, you become clergy centric and then the whole thing falls apart. And too much power accrues to clergy, and clergy doesn't handle that power very well, at least in my experience. Anyway, the whole thing falls apart. So so that said, um, um, then if that's central, then the things that are not central take their place. Um, and, and I guess probably, um, received their, received their, their proper, the proper attention. So. Right. What are the what are the pastor reads the sermon or or or or says the sermon without notes. That's adiaphora whether there's a choir, whether there's a guitar, that's adiaphora. Um, how we think about where we might give the resources of the church to the food shelf to Lutheran World Relief. What percentage goes where? All important stuff and you got to be giving. But it's hard to offer as to who gets what. I mean, again, not not that it doesn't matter, but those items aren't central to the gospel. And so we often, it seems to me in in our ecclesiastical cultures, our churches, we're forever, forever, forever confusing what is not essential with what is essential. And I think it just causes so much exhaustion amongst clergy. Um, lay people get frustrated and the whole thing goes off the rails. So adiaphora is a really important concept. It's it's a concept which helps us to think about what's central, what deserves our attention, how might we give it proper attention, and then what takes place as a result of the gospel and how do we make sure that those things are important but not central, if that makes sense? Does that help? Dwight a little bit. I mean.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. So I think there are two two follow up thoughts. One is, is that Luther engaged in a really powerful act of translation. First of all, with Scripture, right. But also with, you know, if the liturgy, if you will, the life of the church. And and I always think that it's easy, even for Lutherans to get fixed, in particular cultural forms of how...

Terri Elton: No, tell me it's not so.

Dwight Zscheile: Church works. You know, and, and and not actually claim this much bolder courage to be continually translating the life of faith of the word, if you will, into the local vernaculars of whatever context you're in. And in today's, you know, society, there's, um, a lot of different cultural contexts in our neighborhoods. So, so I think was just about that. And then I want to come back and ask you a question a little more about leadership.

Mark Tranvik: Yeah, obviously, I think there's a tendency amongst some Lutherans to freeze the church in a 16th century form, and that's unfortunate. The liturgy has to be this way. Um, worship has to be this way, the way we conduct our church and understand our structure in the church. It has to be this way. And that's ironic, because Luther was the one who broke the molds, right? Right. I mean, he really did.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah. I was thinking more in 1950s form that's frozen.

Mark Tranvik: But, yeah. No, he was an era. He broke the mold. I mean, right. It was a translation project. Not only with the Bible, obviously, but also with the liturgy, the new form of the mass, the new understanding of the Lord's Supper, the new understanding of baptism. All these things had people's heads spinning. What are we doing this for? Why are we doing? For Luther, there was a radical freedom that undergirded all of those. All of those. Those innovations, if you will. And and I think that spirit, then that boldness. But I also want to temper it. He never did it just ad hoc or because he thought it was important. There was always the sense that I have to do it. So so it makes sense to my community as well. So at the same time, there's always kind of this education project going on in terms of here's why we're doing it and here's why we're moving in this direction. Um, so, so, so, you know, I mean, when he came back just to get back into the Reformation, a second year, um, in 1521, you know, he was excommunicated. He ended up at the Wartburg Castle for his protection. And then he comes back to Wittenberg about ten months later, and he sees everything going crazy because the changes had been too fast, they'd been too rapid. And he said, okay, let's slow things down. You don't have to have communion. Still, it's not mandatory to have it have both bread and wine. You can just have the bread, as the Catholics are doing. And but eventually he made the changes within, you know, a couple, three, four years. He knows people need time. So there's this interesting sort of juxtaposition. And on the one hand, the passion, the boldness. Let's not get locked in. On the other hand, let's also make sure our people, um, um, um, understand, follow. I mean, it's a pastoral dimension, right? Uh, but don't get stuck there. So, I mean, it's, you know, you're climbing up one side of the horse and falling off on the other kind of thing. Luther always loved that analogy. It's hard to stay on the horse, but. But I worry that in too many cases, we've lost the boldness.

Dwight Zscheile: Yeah, yeah. Well, so one one area around that is has to do with leadership. So if you think about the Reformation taking place basically within the framework of Christendom in Europe, where the assumption was, this is a Christian society. Everyone, you know, almost everyone is supposed to be at least nominally Christian. And then you have church really focused around word and sacrament led by clergy, even though, as you say, the vision is really for lay lay leadership in many ways. But we now are in a moment, and certainly in America, where we're seeing an increasingly lay led, clergy supported reality of ministry, whether intentionally or not, because there aren't enough pastors in many congregations. And and so I think with us for a minute about both how on the one hand, Luther had this very expansive sense of the priesthood of all believers and a very empowering understanding of ministry of all, and also a a what could be understood as a fairly clerical understanding of word and sacrament done by led by clergy in these gatherings, presumably even in a dedicated building or whatever, in this sort of Christendom box. So what does it mean to navigate this shift from clergy led, lay supported ministry to lay led, clergy supported ministry in light of that heritage?

Mark Tranvik: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, a tricky one, I think. I think obviously Christendom is gone and we're struggling with all the implications of that. Um, and I think as the church moves into the 21st century, further into the 21st century, and thinks about this, this dimension of, of, um, empowering the laity. And how does the clergy support that? I think it comes back to the lady need and and usually want the resources to do this work well when they're being asked to proclaim the word, and they often are. I recognize that, um, they also recognize, I think, as they try to do that, that this is really hard work and I need help doing this. And of course, that's what Faith Lead is all about. I get it and I welcome that and applaud that. But they need help sort of figuring out, um, so how do I interpret a biblical passage? How do I read my audience and understand what they need to hear? Um, what is it? And basic for Lutherans, this distinction between law and gospel and so not not just anybody can do it, but people can do it. And so um, but but a but a paradigm like law and gospel is pretty sophisticated at a certain level. And at another level it's not. And um, um, so there So I guess we're back to we're back to what Luther felt he needed to do back in the 16th century. Luther and the Lutherans that were with him. Catechesis, huh? And and and recognizing that there's this great need for the laity to be to, to be, to help to to understand this basic structure of what we're trying to say. How we interpret the Bible, what it means to preach, what it means to comfort and console people, provide pastoral care. Uh, and and so the, I guess, the clergy, those who have been quote unquote, professionally trained, the focus then needs to go into equipping through catechesis our laity to do this job. Um, I but it's still such a clergy centric church. We all know that. And it's so hard to make that make that transition. Um, but without that, I mean, you just don't want unequipped laity sending them out there because it doesn't work. What happens is it's just to use again, Lutheran language. It's just law eventually. Because, because, because it will become a list of how to do this or how to be born again, or you know, how to how to how to. It's all BS. How can we equip our laity to actually actually actually proclaim word sacrament, um, in their daily interactions with people Christ crucified and risen, new, old and new, death and life? Um, that's what we need to do. Uh, but it's going to take some. Yeah, we we still, I think, have this notion that they, as clergy, they come to us instead of flipping that and thinking about how do how do we go to them and empower them, something like that.

Terri Elton: Yeah, I love that. And I think that is a liberation. A liberating force in and of itself. There is a new creation and we're invited in. Yeah, right. I think it returns us back to where we started. Yeah. Right. So here's some things I'm taking away on how reformation matters today. There's a theological core that we're invited to every time we hit this reformation, to be reminded to go back to our theological core, because some of us can wander off. Yeah. Second, there are some practices around living out those that we are invited to refresh as we do that, you know, are we living out those core right? Or have we gotten stuck in things that are not the core? I think there's an agency reframing, reminding us that we, as followers of Jesus are called to participate in God's mission. But God has the mission, right. And we live for the sake of the world. And then I think the last thing that you just touched on, that was a big thing for Martin Luther was the catechism. Right? And and having a formation that ongoing. Right. What's the ongoing formation around this kind of orientation? Did I miss anything or is there something else that you would want listeners to leave with as we close? Yeah.

Mark Tranvik: Just just. No, that's very helpful. You said it. Well, you're a fine student, Terri. I was just.

Terri Elton: Going to say I've taken notes in a few classes, Mark.

Mark Tranvik: I think you maybe knew some of this coming in here. Um, but but. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say just just that for Luther. You know, it's kind of interesting. One of the key writings, most popular writings he had, one of the first things he did was he was right about Christian freedom. Everybody thought it was dangerous. Oh, don't go there. No, no, no, he just rang the changes on it. Of course, picking up on Paul for freedom. Christ has set us free. So? So there's a the seeing, the freeing dimension of the gospel. But it's freedom. It's a passion than for the sake of the world, for the sake of creation, for the sake of the neighbor. Um, it's not a sort of. Well, nothing matters then I'm free. But actually it drives you deeper into God's world and and service in God's world. And again, I always tell my students it's service in the name of Jesus, the one who crossed lines. You always got to factor that in. Otherwise it will become something that it's not supposed to be because of our sort of tendency to make it all about us. Yeah.

Terri Elton: Thanks, Mark. Really appreciate your sharing your insights and your theological and historical wisdom for us as we think about our current context and what this day and this season means for us.

Dwight Zscheile: And to our audience. Thank you for joining us on this special Reformation Day episode of pivot. To help spread the word about pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It helps.

Terri Elton: And the best compliment you can give us is to share Pivot podcast with a friend. So we encourage you to do that. This is Terri Elton and Dwight Zscheile signing off from another pivot podcast. See you next week!

Faith+Lead voiceover: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead. Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.