Jean Paul is a senior scientist at the Medical University of Innsbruck. In part 2 of our conversation, Jean discusses her experience leading an impact-led transcdisciplinary research project focused on supporting families with mental health issues. She highlights the challenges of stakeholder engagement, distributed team management, and transdisciplinary research. Jean emphasizes the importance of community engagement, virtual team collaboration, and fostering diversity in academia. She also reflects on the skills she brings to this role and the importance of investing in the team set up from the very beginning.

Overview

[00:29] Introducing Part 2

[02:23] Recap from Part 1

[07:27] Working with stakeholders

[13:35] Leading a distributed international interdisciplinay project team

[14:59] Learning leadership from diverse experiences

[18:25] The transferrable skills – listening and learning

[20:04] Supporting diverse career paths

[25:16] Insights for parents in academia

[29:22] Leadership, organisational design and virtual team management

[34:33] Making virtual collaboration work

[39:08] Future directions and reflections

[41:57] End

Related links:

Ludwig Boltzmann Institute/Gesellschaft

The sandpit-funded project – The Village Project

The Healthy Minds project

Dr Ghislaine Caulat – consultant on virtual leadership development 

Simon Martin – consultant for their organisational design in a transdisciplinary project with stakeholder involvement 

Project Design principles:

The design principles that came out of the oganisational design workshops:

• Effectively coordinate and involve a wide (but manageable!) network of stakeholders
• Be clear on expectations, results and deliverables within the team
• Keep momentum, trust and energy going across the project timeline for the core team and wider stakeholders
• Make sure that the perspectives of people with lived experience are heard clearly throughout the project (capturing the voices of people impacted by perinatal mental illness and those who are treating and working with the affected person and their families)
• Enact high ethical standards in our research (especially when listening to personal stories of mental illness and challenges)
• Demonstrate the value of interdisciplinary research partnerships with stakeholders, and challenge the landscape of traditional research and methods
• Effectively lobby and influence (local and national policy makers), and raise awareness in society / politics through making our topics and results visible.

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Have you ever faced the

challenges of trying to co-design

6

a project with stakeholders?

7

And have a focus on both doing good

science and having an impact on

8

actual practice at the same time.

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Have you ever wondered what it

takes to lead a research project?

10

And more, challengingly a

distributed project team undertaking

11

trans disciplinary research.

12

And supporting diverse career paths.

13

And do you wonder if you have the

skills and knowledge to practically

14

make a distributed transdisciplinary

project team work well?

15

If you said yes to any of these

questions or curious about them, I

16

think you'll find lots of value in this

ongoing conversation with Jean Paul.

17

Jean is a senior scientist at the medical

university of Innsbruck in Austria.

18

In part two of our conversation

here, she continues to reflect

19

on their very deliberate design

of both stakeholder engagement.

20

And bringing the same values into

their organizational structure.

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Which is reflected in how they built

their team, built their relationships,

22

manage meetings and lots more.

23

Also loved in this conversation, how

Jean reflected on, how she developed

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the mindset and skills to bring to

this leadership role, even though

25

she's a relatively young researcher.

26

If you recently listened to part one,

You might just want to skip ahead now

27

to about seven minutes into the episode.

28

If you need a little bit of a recap,

both to who Jean is her background

29

and to the project context.

30

I'll let Jean introduce herself

again, just as a recap of

31

where we got to in part one.

32

Jean, do you want

to introduce yourself?

33

Jean: A fellow Australian, and

34

Up until then, I was working as

a researcher at the Children's

35

Hospital in Melbourne at the Murdoch

Children's Research Institute.

36

And I would describe myself as

a social scientist have quite

37

a mixed academic background.

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I studied arts and science

in combination at university.

39

So I've always been interested in science

and how things work, but maybe also in

40

combination with how people experience

health and illness and medical systems

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and so my PhD in Australia was looking

at communication between doctors who

42

specialize in genetics and their patients.

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I then did a couple of postdocs in

Melbourne as a qualitative researcher,

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always working in these topics to really

understand those complex questions

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of, you know, social representation

or understanding decision making,

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understanding behavior change

understanding relationships between

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professionals or between families, across

professionals, across organizations.

48

Geri: Jean then went on to talk about

applying for participation in a sandpit

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that was being held in Vienna, Austria.

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Um, and organized by the

Ludwig Boltzmann Institute.

51

And so she describes the process and

also talks about the project that ended

52

up being funded . And I replay this

here because it's important context

53

for what we talk about in part two.

54

Jean: there was a kind of core group of

us that, had this idea that children whose

55

parents have a mental illness are really

missing a social network, in modern times.

56

and you know, the informal support

and the low threshold neighbor

57

that comes over to help out, is

something that could really make a

58

difference to in these circumstances.

59

And so we had this concept of the

village, which ended up getting funded.

60

Geri: jean then went on to talk about

the way in which the project got set

61

up, uh, based in Innsbrook in Austria

and discussing the transdisciplinary

62

team they had, that was distributed

and some of the process of how they

63

started recruiting participants.

64

And again, just a quick recap for context.

65

Jean: We gave a lot of control

to the hospitals to make decisions

66

about how children could be

identified and how families might

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be recruited into the project.

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And the head of the psychiatry

department here wanted it to be the

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job of the doctors of the psychiatrists

to recruit families rather than

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the social workers or the nurses.

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Because he felt that it was the job

of psychiatrists to ask patients

72

about their family and about their

general well being, not just about

73

their symptoms, but understanding

their social network, understanding

74

their world, so as a psychiatrist,

you can treat the patient better.

75

Psychiatrists have a very short

amount of time to work with families.

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So that didn't always mean that the

conversation was very in depth and

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they may not have really understood

what the project was about.

78

And if we had nurses or social workers,

they had much more time to reach more

79

families, to have a higher recruitment.

80

But through doing that, we were able

to have these questions about parenting

81

and general well being of Children

or caring responsibilities introduced

82

into the electronic medical system

of the hospital here in Innsbruck.

83

And this is something that our

colleagues in Melbourne have been

84

trying to get changed for over 20 years.

85

Being in a small city and really

helping the community feel a sense of

86

ownership of our research I think helped

make a change that hopefully is going

87

to be very valuable for doctors in

thinking about who their patients are.

88

When we started the doctors, some of the

psychiatrists told us that the project

89

wouldn't work because their patients

didn't have children and we know that's

90

Internationally, that's not true, but so

why would it be different in Innsbruck?

91

And then we had some change over

time where some of the psychiatrists

92

said, actually, I think this project

would be really valuable because if

93

we start understanding about caring

responsibilities, maybe we can reduce

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the length of stay, inpatient stay for

these adults and help in their recovery.

95

Can we also include some assessments

of recovery in the evaluation.

96

Geri: So the whole approach of

being driven primarily by impact

97

and it's still, it's research.

98

But not just for the sake of high quality

journal publications and the careful

99

thinking about who you involve and how you

involve them sounded really key to that.

100

And this is where we pick up for part two.

101

Where Jane continues to talk about how

they've worked with their stakeholders.

102

And this leads onto a discussion

around leadership and project design,

103

organizational design, and so on.

104

What were some of the challenges

in working with stakeholders

105

in this way in a project?

106

Yeah.

107

Because I think you talked before about

it's sort of about not having as much

108

control in defining what goes forward.

109

Jean: I think we had to start off in

a, from a very humble position, which

110

especially for me not speaking German and

I was coming in to fix things in Innsbrook

111

that wasn't gonna be accepted, if that's

the way I was gonna view, view the job.

112

So we really had to start off by being

curious and inquisitive and listening to

113

people and identifying their needs, their

concerns, their suggestions for solutions.

114

And so we did that through

some network events, but also

115

through qualitative interviews.

116

And then we ran a series of workshops over

six months with a group of stakeholders.

117

And I think what was really powerful

was in those workshops we used case

118

vignettes from those interviews to

present certain situations where children

119

might have been put in the pediatric

department of the hospital overnight

120

because the parent was admitted and the

child didn't have anywhere else to go.

121

And we then used those vignettes for the

participants to identify best practice,

122

worst practice and prioritize as a group.

123

What could we change together

within the scope of this project?

124

What's the priority?

125

Where should we target?

126

Who should be doing what?

127

I think some of the challenges

were that we were doing a research

128

project that needed to be evaluated

and it needed to still be research.

129

So some of the practitioners

might have a solution.

130

And then feel that, why do you need

a research project, you just need you

131

know, this group to have more money,

or we need one more team member here,

132

and then that solves the problem why do

you need money to write papers and to

133

do research on this and I think, yeah,

some of the challenges were the pace of

134

research compared to Sometimes in Austria,

someone has an idea and they can get

135

money from the local government to run

some kind of small service very quickly

136

if it's, you know, if they're lucky.

137

But I think that's also part of a bigger

challenge that that I've experienced in

138

Austria compared to Australia, that a

lot of services are not evidence based.

139

So there's a lack of health services

research and our colleague in Vienna,

140

Ingrid Zeckmeister Koss is the Deputy

Director of the Austrian Health

141

Technology Assessment Organization.

142

And you know, the decision making behind

which treatments are valuable, and

143

especially in mental health and social

services is very difficult to follow.

144

And Austria is quite fragmented in its

service provision, and it, within Tirol,

145

It's very fragmented because you have

the mountains and, you know, from coming

146

from Australia distances are very short,

but I've grown to learn that they're

147

actually a lot further away sometimes

148

Geri: Because those valleys

make a big difference.

149

Yeah.

150

Jean: exactly and telehealth

isn't something that people

151

really use or accept.

152

So the services are very localized and

fragmented and can be quite short term.

153

You know, something was.

154

It was offered for some time, but then

it was only for one term and someone

155

else, and it was lost to the system.

156

So I think there were frustrations

sometimes from our stakeholders that we

157

know the solution, you just have to fund

it, or you just have to do this, and

158

why do we need to take so long in, in

doing all this process to have research.

159

At the same time, there were also

stakeholders who had experience

160

in research who maybe didn't like

how experimental it was and non

161

traditional and the vagueness

sometimes in what we were doing.

162

And that was sometimes also a

challenge for when we were running

163

the intervention because we designed

a new role as someone who we call a

164

village facilitator, who sort of helps

the parents create this network or

165

strengthen this network with the child.

166

And these village facilitators

had different backgrounds in

167

psychology or pedagogy, social work.

168

And this was a new role.

169

And, you know, Austria isn't particularly

known for things happening so quickly

170

and such innovations in systems.

171

And that was very difficult for

professionals as well in, what

172

are the expectations of my role?

173

What do I do if this happens?

174

And so they had.

175

supervision, again, with this

relationship manager, Boltzmann,

176

who had the psychology training.

177

She would provide monthly supervision

with that group of practitioners

178

to understand their role.

179

And we also had monthly supervision

or monthly meetings with them for the

180

organizational aspects, the questions

that they had that were coming up

181

because we wanted to learn from them as

well, how that role worked in reality.

182

And sometimes there were changes

to the role as it was going on,

183

which caused challenges for the

evaluation of the project, which was

184

led by a health economist in London.

185

In terms of the complexity of the research

design it was quite high in designing

186

something together with stakeholders,

implementing it and evaluating it

187

within the space of four years.

188

And then having COVID hit

in the middle of that time.

189

So we had a six month extension.

190

And just as we started to try and

find families to increase their

191

social network, the lockdown started.

192

And in, in Innsbruck, in Tyrol here,

this was, you know, the centre of some

193

of the early spreads of the pandemic.

194

So the hospital in Zams was one of our

study sites and they basically closed

195

and were only dealing with COVID.

196

And so mental health wasn't something

that they could respond to at all.

197

So we had to wait, I think, six months

before we could even train the staff

198

there to start recruiting families.

199

Geri: So you've mentioned team

members in Vienna, in London, in

200

Germany, and I see on the webpage

you've got some in Australia as

201

well and all around the place.

202

Can you reflect a little bit

on the experiences of being

203

a PI and leading a project?

204

Are you one of the few sitting

in Innsbruck and how do you

205

deal with the distributed team?

206

To keep every, especially in this

more open project and with the more

207

transdisciplinary approach that you're

talking about, where people can't

208

just get sent off into their little

silos to throw stuff over the wall.

209

Jean: Yeah and we started also with

another researcher in Pakistan and another

210

one in Norway who left during the project.

211

So it was very international, very

interdisciplinary, and I was the

212

only one then based in Innsbruck.

213

We then employed a group here

team here who started six months

214

after the project started.

215

So for the first six months, I was

sitting here by myself in the biology

216

building of the university talking in

my computer and having meetings online.

217

People were very confused why I'd

moved to Austria to sit by myself.

218

But I think, yeah, it's, it was a

big challenge leading such a team

219

and my previous work in Melbourne,

I had been a postdoc, mostly

220

working by myself, choosing my own

things, working for other people.

221

The more I've been here, the more

I've realised how much I drew from

222

outside in my private life and things

that I've done more generally to

223

support my leadership position here.

224

So I was I've always been involved in a

lot of sport and community development.

225

And which the sports don't exist here.

226

So I was heavily involved in netball,

which I've had to educate people on

227

a little bit here and haven't had

a chance to start up a team yet.

228

Probably exists in Vienna.

229

But I was on the board of our

local sports club, the netball and

230

football club as the only woman

and the only person under 60 or so.

231

And was writing grants to to the local

council in Melbourne to get funding for

232

uniforms or funding for to waive fees

for families who are more disadvantaged.

233

I was very and am very passionate

about community sports or organized

234

programs like that in, creating places

for people to, to have responsibility,

235

to have routine, to learn about

themselves, to learn from each other.

236

And yeah, I think that also working in

Australia, I did some some work as a

237

youth worker in Central Australia in a

remote community where most of the town,

238

the people there weren't speaking English

and They were very sceptical of people

239

from outside coming in to help because in

Australia we have a very dark history of

240

not being able to support our Indigenous

population and not really having the

241

rest of the country, I think, not really

having good knowledge on the situation in

242

remote places aboriginal Australia and a

very big difference in life expectancy,

243

but when I was working in those towns

I took the approach that I was there

244

to spend whatever time I had with them

to provide services to support them in

245

their activities that they wanted to do.

246

So having a background in in

sport and also I used to work at

247

the local YMCA as a, in holiday

programs or after school care.

248

So providing activities for families.

249

So that meant organizing bingo

nights or taking families out to go

250

hunting or going to a swimming hole.

251

And fairly quickly, they accepted me

and gave me a blood group or a blood

252

name, which is in Australian, Aboriginal

Australia, they have Groups of families

253

that are connected not just through

blood, but also through social connections

254

which means that you're, as well as

having your parents, you have a network

255

of people around you who can take on

parenting responsibilities and that

256

sometimes it's a good thing because, you

know, your auntie, who's not necessarily

257

your auntie, blood auntie, also needs

to look after you if you don't have some

258

food or if you need help with schooling.

259

But it also brings a lot of expectations

and sometimes shame for the adults

260

who might not be able to provide that

support when people ask, because at

261

least in the communities I was working

in, I think it's a bit more universal.

262

It's very shameful not to be able

to give someone what they ask for.

263

And that's, I think, very different

to Western communities that if kids

264

want an ice cream, you can say no.

265

Yeah.

266

So I think those experiences the more

I reflected on them, the more I saw

267

how they provided me with insights into

working in a country that I don't speak

268

the language and I don't know much

about, so I had to wait and be told.

269

Geri: So how would you summarise those

in terms of the transferable skills

270

?

Jean: I think the skills were really that could be transferred to here

271

were recognizing the importance of

community and of listening and respect

272

and acknowledging that people have

their own solutions and you know,

273

coming from outside, not being ignorant

to think that, you know, better.

274

because you're from Melbourne or

because you went to a university.

275

But everyone has their own their own

knowledge and their own perspectives.

276

And you can create something

together if you are able to listen.

277

In that way.

278

And I think that's what all of my

community work taught me as well that I

279

wasn't there to fix it to fix anything.

280

I was more there to listen and learn and

see what would be possible together to do.

281

Geri: Yeah, lovely.

282

I mean, you talked about those terms

in terms of being humble and listening

283

and being curious when you talked about

the stakeholders and so you also played

284

out those same ways with the team.

285

Jean: Yeah, and I think

the team that became more

286

complicated as we went through.

287

The first phases of the project and

had got to know about each other a bit,

288

but the pressure was sort of building

as the research was getting underway

289

and people were realizing maybe how

much they had to give away of their own

290

expectations or if things were moving

off track from what they would predict.

291

And so that's where the

Boltzmann was helping again.

292

And I had, some support from the career

center there, which I think is also

293

really valuable and in Australia, I

think that's more common that you have a

294

department within a university or within

a research organization that really

295

focuses on supporting people's career.

296

Something that I think is often the

case, though, is that supporting

297

careers in academia usually means

supporting them out of academia.

298

And not really thinking what

diversity there is inside

299

academia for people to excel.

300

And I think that is something that the

Ludwig Boltzmann have been trying to

301

work on, but I think could go a lot

further and more generally at other

302

universities in Austria that it's

not about being a professor or not.

303

I think there's so many different roles

that people can take and people can have

304

in research and value that they can bring.

305

And I think that's one of the

challenges in Austria that

306

there really is this ceiling.

307

But if you're not doing a PhD and

if you're not then moving on to the

308

next step, it's much better for you

to get out and do something else.

309

Geri: Yeah.

310

And we need to take much broader views

now when we're training so many more

311

PhD students as we often talk about,

and the number of permanent positions,

312

if you wanted to continue in that more

traditional path, are quite limited.

313

And it is true about the diversity

of contributions that can be made.

314

So is there anything else you'd

want to reflect on in terms of

315

how you've helped facilitate

distributed team working together?

316

Jean: Yes, I think also coming from

Australia, I've had a bit of a privileged

317

position that our university systems are

much more flexible to diverse careers.

318

So you don't have to decide at

the age of 13 what type of future

319

you're going to have, what type of

profession you're going to have.

320

And even at the age of 18 I think it's

changing a little bit in Australia with

321

the more American style university system.

322

But at least when I was training, I

could do two degrees at the same time

323

and keep my feet in both camps, I guess.

324

And I've been able to maintain that.

325

And I guess, you know, calling myself

a social scientist is a little bit

326

of a vague term anyway, which I

like staying in that vague area.

327

And I think that's not as possible

for people inside Austria who've

328

been trained in the Austrian system.

329

Especially having a medical

university separated from

330

other parts of the university.

331

If you're wanting to do interdisciplinary

research in health it's very complicated.

332

And people in humanities can be much

more theoretical and not as applied

333

sometimes because they don't have

access to the groups that they would be

334

generating theories about, and people

inside the medical university don't

335

have the skill set to do that more

theoretical or social aspect of research.

336

So in, in my team here, I think I've

provided opportunities for team members

337

to have that career path, at least

until now, and we see how that works

338

So in this the next project that was

funded, we have two PhD students who are

339

enrolled in the psychology department

but have very different backgrounds.

340

So one originally did her bachelor's

degree in economics and then a

341

master's at the at the more technical

university here, more business oriented.

342

But was interested in behavior change

and decision making about tourism

343

and then was working in the village

project and now is working on a PhD

344

topic around peer support for mothers

who have a postnatal depression.

345

And I have another PhD project who's

also a PhD student, who's also a project

346

manager, and he studied sociology

and then organizational studies.

347

And now he's doing his PhD in psychology

but both of them are interested in

348

implementation science as a discipline

or using implementation science in

349

health research but that doesn't have

a very strong home yet in Austria.

350

It's more in psychology, but in Australia

you can come at implementation science

351

from quite a lot of different disciplines.

352

Geri: Yeah.

353

Yeah.

354

Again, the parallels, because I grew

up here in Austria in the technical

355

university, and it's that similar sort

of disciplinary silo as a university.

356

And I think for all of us, The complexity

of the problems that we're dealing with,

357

if we want to have real world impact, we

necessarily don't have all the answers

358

ourselves within any discipline or even

within any person in a discipline because

359

we all bring different perspectives

even when we might wear the same label.

360

And I do see that over the time that

it has changed, I see that at our

361

university, they're much more open to

employing people in positions in the

362

faculty, in the informatics faculty that

don't have a strict Computer science

363

background, which, and when I first

started here would have been totally

364

unthinkable, well it was unthinkable,

it was, you just couldn't do it.

365

We've had many fights because

I, our research area is quite

366

similarly bringing together people

from different perspectives.

367

We probably should be wrapping up and

there's so many more things that I'd

368

love to talk about, you know, cause

I know this new project is to do with

369

supporting parents and children during

pregnancy and the perinatal period.

370

.

I know you've just started that project really.

371

Some of the people that I speak

to on the podcast talk about the

372

challenges of being an academic or

a professional and the challenges

373

of having babies or having family.

374

Are there any insights that are coming

out from your research so far that may

375

be relevant to people working in the

academic research space and how they

376

might handle that perinatal period.

377

Jean: I think at least in Austria,

there are quite a lot of services, but

378

not a lot of awareness of services and

supports, and I think something that

379

probably is quite helpful is having

discussions ahead of the birth on

380

expectations and expectation management.

381

We've just had a medical student who's

finished his thesis just now looking

382

at a historical analysis of perinatal

mental health services in Austria and

383

the changing role of families and women

and expectations about motherhood.

384

And I think something that was discussed

a lot in those interviews is the pressure

385

on women which exists even more in

smaller areas of Austria to be a good

386

mother, for everything to be perfect.

387

And, you know, as a midwife, you would

also know this, the information that

388

Parents are getting around the birth.

389

It's just expanding exponentially

in how to do things right.

390

And losing sight sometimes of what

the baby's telling you and what you're

391

telling, what you're What your gut

is telling you, what feels natural,

392

what feels normal, and I think things

can become overly complicated and

393

therefore, you know, overly stressful

from social pressures from the outside,

394

and especially if you're an academic,

then you're interested in, Picking

395

up all of that knowledge and all that

information and I think sometimes it's

396

also helpful to put that to the side and

just try and focus on the baby and the

397

family unit and What feels good for you?

398

Geri: Yeah.

399

That sounds great advice just to take

the pressure off because also we're

400

probably unnaturally oriented to

wanting to be perfect and good just

401

being in this career path anyway.

402

And this becomes yet another

performance metric in a way.

403

Yeah.

404

Jean: say one other thing in Austria

then would be the parental leave is for

405

mothers the expectation that mothers are

going home and taking the responsibility

406

for the baby in those first years and

that your job is protected depending

407

on your profession, but generally, yes.

408

And there are opportunities for

fathers to take parental leave as well.

409

But sometimes the fathers don't know.

410

Or the job, even though it

might be against the law doesn't

411

ensure that job will be there

if the father takes the leave.

412

Or there's social pressures that

you're seen as weak if you're a

413

stay at home dad in that time.

414

And so I think, yeah, especially in

academia, you're potentially missing

415

out on opportunities if you're away

from work for a year or for two years.

416

So there are and there should be

opportunities to explain absences for

417

parenting reasons, but also that there

are opportunities for fathers to take

418

on those responsibilities as well

and share that job with the mother.

419

But they're not as well known and they're

more difficult to to get put in practice.

420

Think in Austria, the expectation

is still the mothers take the leave.

421

And I don't think,

422

Geri: yeah.

423

Is there anything that we haven't

talked about that you'd like

424

to discuss before we wrap up?

425

Jean: yeah maybe just briefly in

terms of my leadership position.

426

So the, I had a special

intervention support from an

427

expert in virtual leadership.

428

From a woman called Ghislaine Caulat,

who's a social action researcher

429

in leadership and in organizations.

430

And the Ludwig Boltzmann put

me in touch with her to think

431

about how we could manage online

communication, online team management.

432

In addition to in person management,

because this is happening in parallel

433

with my team and we ran a series of,

she did some interviews first with the

434

team to talk about expectations, and

then we had some workshops together and

435

designed new ways of working virtually,

which really changed the atmosphere in

436

the team and something that I've carried

on Into this next project as well.

437

With the next project at the start,

we knew from the first project

438

that you really need to invest in

the team set up and expectations

439

and organization early on.

440

So we wanted to do that differently

because we didn't really get the chance

441

to think about that in the first project.

442

We sort of had to hit the ground running.

443

So we also had some support from

the Ludwig Boltzmann and used a

444

consultant from the UK to do some

organizational design work with us.

445

And the result of that was really

to change the activities of our

446

work in a completely different way.

447

Rather than having work packages

structured around time or discipline,

448

we ended up organizing our work

around, more around the objectives

449

that we wanted to have in our work.

450

So we have a unit on stakeholder

engagement, a unit on participatory

451

research awareness and social impact and

policy, and each of our investigators are

452

responsible for one of those units with

me overall with overall responsibility.

453

And this was really to try and reinforce

the value that we wanted our work to have.

454

And making sure that those important

aspects were front and center and

455

not a tack on element at the side.

456

Geri: yeah.

457

And just that in framing it in terms

of what the work objectives are does

458

that also increase the need for people

to talk together across the different

459

locations, disciplines to come together,

to contribute to that objective?

460

Jean: I think one of the challenges

then in this new organization is

461

that traditional research then is

only conducted in one of the units.

462

participatory research and the other

units may be seen as non research units.

463

But that's something we reflected on

together that you know, the research

464

project is this whole global set of

activities and everything is coming

465

together to reach the research

questions and the research objectives.

466

Also that the investigators

have different expertise.

467

So in this new project, we have one

health economist one psychologist,

468

two psychiatrists, and myself.

469

So none of them are you know,

public health communication experts

470

or working in policy every day.

471

So we didn't leading those units

didn't mean that they have to

472

be the expert in that topic.

473

You know, we're still working

collaboratively to really think

474

about what the, how to bring

those units to their objectives.

475

Geri: love that, that you've used this

participatory stakeholder engagement

476

to design your organizational structure

and ways, how you work together.

477

Did you also do any work in terms

of defining shared values and things

478

like that as part of that initial team

building work with the new project?

479

Jean: Yes.

480

Yeah, so the project itself was funded

over two stages through the FWF and it

481

was using this Connecting Minds program

of funding where you had to firstly obtain

482

funding for a workshop with stakeholders

and then demonstrate how the workshop

483

results fed into the final proposal.

484

So already from there we started to define

research priorities with our stakeholders.

485

But once we had the funding and the

project was starting with the team.

486

We also thought about values that

would underpin the working model

487

of the organizational design.

488

And we did interviews with stakeholders

again in terms of the organizational

489

design and their experiences on

working in research or Different

490

organizations and what their

expectations and values might be.

491

And then we brought those into

our workshops where we clarified

492

what our vision was and what

our principles to design that

493

organizational structure could be.

494

Geri: Nice.

495

Can you share those values that

came out or the principles?

496

Jean: Yeah.

497

Oh

498

Geri: and I can, oh, I, I can just, I can

put a link to it on the webpage there.

499

And you also talked about the

virtual leadership and virtual

500

team and the process that you

went through with that and how it

501

improved in the previous project.

502

So what were the key things that

made the virtual collaboration

503

work that came out of that?

504

Jean: So we, we came up with

a set of rules that we use

505

for our virtual meetings.

506

So that would be the most

kind of practical outcome.

507

And the first is no cameras and no muting.

508

And so cameras.

509

The thinking behind this and the research

behind this is that you can only process

510

so much information at a time and visual

information can mask someone's emotion

511

much more easily than verbal information.

512

And, therefore a meeting with cameras is

more likely to lead to misunderstandings

513

and miscommunication because someone

might be agreeing with a verbal

514

gesture but in their tone of voice

might show some hesitancy, which you

515

could miss if you're just trying to

process all that information at once.

516

Another The reason is that the cameras

sometimes fail, like you said, if it's

517

a bad internet connection and that's

detracting from the meeting itself.

518

So no cameras and no muting means that

even if you're sitting there nodding,

519

if you're on mute, you can be doing

something else at the same time.

520

So we don't mute, and it brings a sense

of closeness in the meeting because you

521

use minimal responses like you are to

have that sense of conversation rather

522

than a monologue from one speaker.

523

And we also share roles

within the meeting.

524

So everyone has a chance to write minutes.

525

We also have a role of a

facilitator, which is different

526

to the leader of the meeting.

527

So the leader of the meeting is

responsible for clarifying the purpose

528

and the agenda and organizing the date.

529

The facilitator, in contrast, is

responsible for the group dynamics, so

530

they should be, as well as participating

having an eye on the time practically,

531

but also thinking there seems to

be a lot of tension on this topic.

532

Is something going on here?

533

Checking with the leader.

534

Okay, we've spent a lot of time on this,

but I don't think it's been resolved.

535

It sounds like so and so is

still not sure of the outcome.

536

Should we just check that again?

537

So they're trying to help the leader

reach the goals of the meeting

538

through understanding the group

dynamics and keeping an eye on that.

539

And then the minute taker at the end

of each agenda item shares the minutes.

540

For everyone to see and has to write if

there's been any conclusions, decisions

541

or actions taken and if there's actions,

who's responsible and by what date.

542

And that is agreed upon before

the next agenda item comes up.

543

So it's a simultaneous minutes and

at the end of the meeting, there's

544

less chance that people have gone

away with different interpretation

545

and they're shared straight away.

546

And because those roles are shared

then, you don't have the as much power

547

hierarchy in that it's not just the junior

person in the team who's stuck taking

548

the minutes and can't participate fully.

549

Geri: Right.

550

They're all great tips and tricks.

551

Anything else?

552

Jean: I think for the leading an

interdisciplinary or transdisciplinary

553

team that I've taken away

is that you can't how much.

554

How much value there is in having

short conversations with all

555

your team members regularly.

556

So I have one to one meetings with

everyone every fortnight and even if

557

it's not, it doesn't feel so necessary

because you're working across disciplines,

558

it's just a chance to debrief and to

maybe clarify some kind of assumptions

559

or feel closer to each other, especially

if you're working at distance.

560

Bring people, in on the same page you

know, check how their work is going

561

and how that might relate to something

else that someone else is doing.

562

So maybe that is a bit of a full circle

back to my work in Melbourne, where

563

I was working by myself, but still

trying to keep these connections across

564

Geri: I was just thinking

exactly that you're a community

565

builder and a connector.

566

Jean: Yeah, so it's a valuable

skill to have in this role, I think.

567

Geri: Yeah.

568

That's been honed over time.

569

What next for you then, do you

think after this project, because

570

this is still short term funding.

571

Jean: Well, in the course of this

project, I now have a permanent

572

position at the university.

573

Geri: Congratulations.

574

Jean: Thank you.

575

That also gives me a lot of Yeah,

positivity that the university values

576

qualitative research and a medical

university in Austria, in Innsbruck.

577

That in the course of this project

not having had done any qualitative

578

research in, in, I don't think in

their part of the university much

579

at all, to employing someone in a

permanent position is a big change.

580

And I, I get so much support from the

university here from my boss and from

581

the rectors in valuing what I'm doing.

582

I've also applied for another proposal.

583

We have to wait and see on intercultural

comparisons of peer support work

584

in mental health in here and Japan.

585

So at the moment the plan is here.

586

Having a permanent position in research.

587

But we'll see what the future holds.

588

I've yeah, always got an option of

going back to Australia if things become

589

complicated, which they sometimes can.

590

Geri: Yeah.

591

Yeah.

592

Excellent.

593

Well, thank you so much for the

time today to share all this.

594

A lot of the people who might

listen to this podcast, would

595

come more from the human computer

interaction technology area.

596

I mean, there's a whole range of

people and it's both encouraging and

597

also points to the work still to be

done that we're seeing sharing many

598

of the same challenges and approaches.

599

And also that there are so many people

across so many different disciplinary

600

areas driven by the same cares and

concerns and bringing, you know, different

601

contributions in trying to make a

difference in research and have impact

602

while still care for doing good science.

603

So thank you.

604

Great to meet you.

605

Thank you, Jean.

606

Jean: Yeah.

607

Thank you so much for the conversation.

608

Geri: You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

609

links for this podcast on www.

610

changingacademiclife.

611

com.

612

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

613

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614

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

615

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

616

we can do academia differently.

617

And you can contribute to this by rating

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618

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619

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620

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