My latest guest, H. Byron Ballard, joins me on this episode for her second visit to the Home to Her podcast. Byron is a ritualist, teacher, gardener, and author of multiple books, including "Staubs and Ditchwater: A Friendly and Useful Introduction to Hillfolks’ Hoodoo;" "Earthworks: Ceremonies in Tower Time;" "Seasons of a Magical Life;" and the forthcoming "Feral Church." Known as Asheville, North Carolina’s village witch, Byron specializes in folk magic and folkways of the surrounding Appalachian Mountains where she and her family have hailed from for four generations. Byron is also a senior priestess and co-founder of the Mother Grove Goddess Temple, a nonprofit church with a focus on the many forms of the divine feminine.

On this episode we discuss:

• What it means to live in deep relationship to place - both the gifts and the challenges
• How the work and the death of the late thealogian Dr. Carol P. Christ inspired Byron's forthcoming book, Feral Church, and why she feels it's so important that we have new books of thealogy (spelling intentional) that celebrate the Goddess
• Why it's important that we understand that the Goddess and her many incarnations represent much more than patriarchally lauded values such as softness and femininity, but also ferocity and immense power.
• The linkage between the concept of begin feral and the Divine Feminine.
• The need for "hearth church" and other homegrown, emergent practices for engaging with the sacred that can continue to exist and flourish as patriarchal systems crumble around us

Notes related to this episode:

• You can learn more about Byron at her website, https://www.myvillagewitch.com/.
• You can also find her on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/byron.ballar..., and on Instagram: @byronballard5789
• Byron discussed the late Carol P. Christ, and the importance of her work. Her essay "Why Women Need the Goddess" is an excellent introduction to her work: https://www.goddessariadne.org/why-wo...
• Byron mentioned the Unitarian Universalist curriculum, "Cakes for the Queen of Heaven"
• Here's my first interview with Byron from 2022: https://youtu.be/H1uIFHqH00U?si=T5XMk...

And here are a few more details about this show and my work:

• If you’d like to know whose ancestral tribal lands you currently reside on, you can look up your address here: https://native-land.ca/
• You can also visit the Coalition of Natives and Allies for more helpful educational resources about Indigenous rights and history.
• Please – if you love this podcast and/or have read my book, please consider leaving me a review, and thank you for supporting my work!
• You can also watch this episode on the Home to Her YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK6xtUV6K7ayV30iz1ECigw
• For more Sacred Feminine goodness and to stay up to date on all episodes, please follow me on Instagram: @hometoher.
• To dive into conversation about the Sacred Feminine, join the Facebook group: / hometoher
• To go deeper in your Sacred Feminine explorations, check out the course offerings via Home to Her Academy: www.hometoheracademy.com
• And to read about the Sacred Feminine, check out my award-winning book Home to Her: Walking the Transformative Path of the Sacred Feminine (Womancraft Publishing), available on Audible and wherever you buy your books!. If you've read it, your reviews on Goodreads and Amazon are greatly appreciated!

Mentioned in this episode:

We Are Sovereign: A 9-Month Transformational Leadership Program for Women

We Are Sovereign is a 9 month transformational leadership program designed specifically for women who are ready to claim full authority and power over their own lives. The program includes a deep dive with: • Powerful Sacred Feminine figures, drawn from history and mythology, who will serve as our sovereignty guides along the way • Transformational practices rooted in creativity, play, energy work, ritual, ceremony and even magic • Embodiment practices, including dance, yoga, and other intuitive movement exercises to tap into the wisdom of the body • The Enneagram as a tool for understanding the human psyche and our individual personality types • Yogic philosophy, creative writing and journaling exercises, and much more • The power of the group field that we cultivate to dive deep and be witnessed fully for who we are, allowing the property of emergence to support our becoming The journey kicks off with an opening retreat on the beautiful Big Island of Hawaii, September 12-15, 2024. From there, we’ll gather twice a month over the next 9 months via Zoom, and we’ll wrap up in June 2025 with a closing retreat at Hestia Magic Retreat Center, located in the shadow of majestic Mount Shasta, California. To learn more, apply, and/or book a discovery call, visit: https://www.hometoheracademy.com/course/we-are-sovereign

Hello, and welcome to Home to Her,

the podcast that's dedicated to

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reclaiming the lost and stolen

wisdom of the sacred feminine.

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I'm your host, Liz Kelly, and on

each episode, we explore her stories

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and myths, her spiritual principles,

and most importantly, what this

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wisdom has to offer us right now.

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Thanks for being here.

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Let's get started.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Hey everybody,

this is Liz, joining you as usual

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from Central Virginia, the unceded

lands of the Monacan Nation.

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And if you would like to know whose

lands you are residing on, be sure

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to check out the map at native land.

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ca.

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Super helpful for North

America in particular.

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And yeah, so glad you're tuning in today.

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And if you As always, if you are

interested in learning more about

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the Sacred Feminine, there's all

kinds of ways you can do that.

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This is the 93rd episode of the

show, I think, so there's a lot

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of people that you can learn from.

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But if you want to learn from me, you

can check out my award winning book,

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Home to Her, Walking the Transformative

Path of the Sacred Feminine, which is

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available wherever you buy your books.

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You can check out the classes and the

retreats that are coming up via the home

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to her academy at home to her academy.

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com.

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You can follow me on social at home

to her on Facebook and Instagram.

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I was really trying to do Tik TOK and I

just, man, there's a, that's a, that's a,

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that's a lot of platforms to keep up with.

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Maybe I'll get back to it, but you

know, maybe, maybe I'll be there.

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And then you can check out articles and

all past podcast episodes at home to her.

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com.

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I will put all of this in the show notes.

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And if you are a regular listener, I

would love for you to leave a review

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of this show, wherever you access it.

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It helps other people find it.

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And goddess knows we need easy

access to this kind of information.

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And as always, feel free to reach out

to me with your thoughts, your comments,

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your feedback, your suggestions.

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You can email me or you

can contact me via social.

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That's a really good way to do it too.

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But I love hearing what you're thinking.

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I love hearing from you.

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So, please do that.

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And, Okay.

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On with the show.

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So I'm super excited to

have a repeat guest today.

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I've only had a few repeat

guests in the whole time.

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You know, I've been doing this for

four and a half years now, right?

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Yeah.

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So that means I think

they're pretty damn cool.

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And that is absolutely

true with my guest today.

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She first joined me back in 2022.

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We had a really phenomenal conversation.

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Then we got to meet in person

and I already knew she was cool.

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That just cemented it.

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And she's back now to talk to us about

an upcoming book that she's got, and also

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one of my favorite subjects, which is this

idea of rewilding ourselves and the world.

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Oh, I just feel good even saying

that, so let me let me, yeah, let me

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go ahead and introduce her to you.

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H.

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Byron Ballard is a ritualist,

teacher, gardener, and author of

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multiple books, including Oh, man.

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Staubs and Ditchwater, right?

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I've read it.

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I just know.

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Staubs and Ditchwater.

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Staubs and Ditchwater.

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A friendly and useful introduction to

Hillfolk's Hoodoo, Earthworks, Ceremonies

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in Tower Time, Seasons of a Magical

Life, and the forthcoming Feral Church.

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Known as Asheville, North Carolina's

village witch, Byron specializes

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in folk magic and folkways of the

surrounding Appalachian Mountains,

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where she and her family have

hailed from for four generations.

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Byron is also a senior priestess and

co founder of the Mothergrove Goddess

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Temple, a non profit church with a focus

on the many forms of the divine feminine.

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And her work as a pagan priestess

has her regularly performing rituals

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and ceremonies for locals and

also traveling all over the place.

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And Byron is joining us from her home

today in Asheville, North Carolina.

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Yay.

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She's back.

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Byron.

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Welcome.

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Welcome.

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Oh, I

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Byron Ballard: didn't realize

you don't have repeat visitors.

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That's very exciting.

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I feel very important.

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You should.

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In the spirit of what you said, I

will say that I live on Cherokee land.

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And I live above the section of the

French Broad River that was called

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Ta'ak'i'asti, which means racing waters.

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And I'm very, very much aware that we

are not the first people on this land,

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nor were the Cherokee for that matter.

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But yes, let's honor.

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Those ancestors of the land

and and our ancestors as well.

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It's always good to see you.

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I know.

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It's good to see you too.

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It's

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Liz Childs Kelly: better to see

you in person, but this will do.

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Byron Ballard: It is.

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It is.

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And last time we saw each other

in person, it was It was a camping

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event, so we were mostly at night

around a fire, so we didn't see

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much of each other really anyway.

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We just hung out.

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Liz Childs Kelly: That's very true.

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That's very true.

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Well, and I feel like we're kind of

leaping right into this topic, which,

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by the way, if y'all listen to the show

on a regular basis, you know that I

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usually start with asking my guests about

their spiritual background and their

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relationship to the, Sacred feminine and

we've covered all that the first time

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that Byron was on the show So i'm going

to put that in the show notes if if y'all

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want to go check that out and hear that

part of her story You should that was

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an amazing conversation but I kind of am

feeling like You know want to talk about

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this topic of feral church and I I feel

like we're already dancing around it.

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One is I'm like, I just kind

of want to go right there.

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Yeah.

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What you said about the indigenous

you know, the Cherokee that you're

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on Cherokee land, and I named it,

I'm on a land of the Monica nation.

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And, and so immediately thinking of like

to me, when we think about nature, it,

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In this place, in this country, this

is very tied up to the, to the original

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peoples that tended the land that would

have had a deep relationship to place.

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And so I'm curious, you know, just right

out of the gate as you, and I want to

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talk about what it means to have feral

church and all that, but just even

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thinking about that concept how does

that weave with your understanding

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of indigenous relationship to place?

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To place like it was that kind

of in your head as you were

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thinking about approaching this

topic It's always in my head.

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Byron Ballard: I think in my in my intro

in the bio You said my family's been

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here four generations and my family's

been here More like 350 years So we have

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been five generations of my family in the

neighborhood in which i'm sitting right

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now And before that it was neighboring

counties we were in the counties on on

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Three sides of the county I live in now.

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So yeah, I've been here a long

time, family been here a long time.

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And I say that I haven't been

able to get away from here, nor

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have any of us really that we have

these kind of weird gnarly roots.

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And I was talking actually to

a Cherokee friend of mine and.

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If you don't know her, you need

to know her name is Jody Noe, Dr.

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Jody Noe, who lives in Connecticut.

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And we talk a lot about land

and land based spirituality.

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But when she, when we were talking

about how long my family had been here,

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she laughed and she said, Well, you've

been here almost as long as we have.

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So, yeah, a long, long time.

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And because of that, And because

of relative levels of poverty,

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I feel like I've been very close

to this land for a long time.

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As a, as a child, I grew up in a,

in a very rural area and grew up

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with a family that, left me alone

and left me to my own devices.

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And lately I've thought about

the word neglect and neglectful.

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And I was fortunate because if

in fact, we can apply that word

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to my early life with my parents.

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With my family, primarily my mother,

who did not work outside the home.

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She just turned me loose in the morning.

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I went out the door when I was not in

school and I knew to be back by dark.

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But other than that, she didn't

seem to monitor me very much.

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So I've been on the land and

with the land and the way I

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describe it is it's not my land.

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It's not even the Cherokee land.

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It is the land with which we

dwell and it can't be owned.

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People can claim they own it and

spend a lot of money, frankly,

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pretending they own it and they

can do all sorts of damage to it.

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But the reality is no one can own that.

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That it is its own entity

and cannot be owned.

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Yes.

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What were we talking about?

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I just went off on a rant.

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.

Liz Childs Kelly: No, I mean, I think you wove it back together.

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I was just asking about, you know,

indigenous peoples being on the

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land and how that kind of plays

into this idea of feral church.

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And I feel like you kind

of wove it together.

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And what I was thinking as

you were saying that, Okay.

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And I feel like when I say this, you'll

be like, well, duh, but for me, it's

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been kind of a thing that's become much

more clear for me for the last couple

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of years is the importance of place and

location to our spiritual work and to

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our magical work, like case in point.

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I.

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Have had a practice of rooting to

the earth for years and you know, I

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think we do these things I don't know.

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I'd love to hear your perspective on

this, but we do these things over and

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over and Eventually they root in us,

you know, it's like oh now I get I mean,

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you know He always sometimes you just

got to kind of do stuff wrote a little

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bit until you'd like really start to

feel it Right, and what came clear to

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me a few years ago was how important

Transcription by CastingWords location

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is to that practice that it's not a

philosophical up in the head thing.

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It is a down in the ground thing.

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And the more that you are actually in tune

to your place, the stronger that route is

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going to be, which just seems so obvious.

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But for me, like, I don't know,

I don't think I understood that

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until like even moving to Virginia.

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And I'm like, wait a minute.

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Rooting here is completely different

than rooting in California.

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Completely different.

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The land is different.

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It's all, it's all different and

everything gets more powerful, I

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think, when we start to understand

ourselves in relationship to place.

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Byron Ballard: Oh, absolutely.

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There's no question about that.

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Yeah, the whole grounding piece is

interesting in a dominant culture that

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seems to do a lot of moving around.

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So people move a lot for jobs, they move

for partners, they move because it's too

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cold in New England in the winter and they

would rather have a more moderate climate.

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People move around for all sorts

of reasons, but, and because it's

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relatively easy now, as opposed

to 100 or 150 years ago when you

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didn't probably move far from home.

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And

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I'm trying to figure out how to say

this exactly, from my front yard.

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If I could see through the trees and

the hills and all that, I can see the

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place where I went to elementary school.

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I can see the place where

I went to high school.

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I literally, without erasing trees

and hills and all that, can see

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the mountain where I grew up, spent

the first 18 years of my life.

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I can see the cemetery where

my mother's family are buried.

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I mean, I can, I can, if you could see

it as the crow flies, I could stand in my

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front yard and see all of those things.

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But I'm really unusual,

because most people are not

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like that in the modern world.

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They, and I love to ask

people, where are you from?

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Well, I used to love to do that.

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Now I find that makes people

uncomfortable because they, they

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don't know where they're from.

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And there's a truism, I guess, in

Southern Appalachia that you are

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from where your grandmother was born.

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So I would then be from Buncombe County

because my grandmother was born here

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in Buncombe County.

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In fact, again, if I could see

through my neighbor's house and that

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row of pine trees, I could see the

piece of land that held the house

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where my grandmother was born.

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And if I could see past that

white van, I could see the

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house where my mother was born.

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So, that kind of enveloping of my personal

history, it has blessings, certainly.

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But it also, it brings burdens.

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It brings huge burdens because

this was for many years, the

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mill village for a cotton mill.

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And so it was very working class.

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And in the last 10 years, it has been

gentrified so that there are houses in

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front of me, which I can see, and behind

me, which I can't, that are on the

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market now for over a million dollars.

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So there is a lot to being rooted in,

in a land that is healthy and helpful.

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And certainly my magic is is enhanced

and made easier by my connection

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to the land with which I dwell.

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But it also means that I am forced to

live on land and watch it be abused.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

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Byron Ballard: And I get to feel that

because you don't get to cut that off, you

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know so yeah, it's, it's really important.

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For example.

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When I got back from my Ohio tour, as

I refer to it, the tour of far Ohio.

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It's the far land of Ohio.

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Far land of Ohio.

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It had been, as you know, terribly hot.

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Record breaking heat on

a couple of days here.

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And no rain.

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Two days ago, I posted in my socials

a picture of an eggshell and the

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people who know about that know

that that is a weather working.

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And I said, if you live in an area

is dry, that is dry and you feel it's

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important to get, to get some moisture,

to get some rain, You know what to do.

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So I didn't explain the working because

it's a very, it can be a pretty intense

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working and we don't want to flood

the places that are not flooding.

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So this morning we got rain.

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And part of that is because I

know the land with which I dwell.

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And I also know the

weather working to do that.

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But also I don't do that casually.

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I listen to the land.

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And if, if I am panicking because

look at my pasty face, I can't do

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heat and I certainly can't do dry.

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Both of those things are

just horrendous to me.

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So I may be feeling a level of

stress that the land itself is like,

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eh, it's just a dry spell in June.

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I don't know what you're

freaking out about.

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So if I feel that from the trees, I mean,

you're going to feel that from annuals

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because they freak out all the time.

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They.

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They're very emotional.

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Cucumber's very emotional.

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So if I feel it from the oak tree

and the big maple tree, and they're

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like, hmm, this is not feeling

very good, then I'll do the work.

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But it's because of my

connection to the land that I

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feel that it's time to do that.

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It's not because I go, oh, it's

so hot, and I'm so powerful.

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I have an idea.

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Why don't I call a storm?

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Well, that is not right,

and it's not healthy.

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And it's a mistake.

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It's a bad use of ability, frankly.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

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It just makes me really think of

us folks that have been perhaps

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shaped by settler values first.

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And then, I'm just thinking of like

the individuality of our culture

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and capitalism and like the quick

and easy, you know, and even like

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that idea of, of understanding our

personal power, which is important.

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I mean, we have it like we should

be employing it, but without that

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tempering and understanding of

responsibility that comes from recognizing

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yourself as belonging to a system.

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It's not about you as

the individual, right?

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It's about you and your place

in this bigger ecosystem.

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And that includes relationship to land.

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If we're not holding that, then we're

like, I feel like I've heard indigenous

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people talk to us as we're like toddlers,

like children, you know, like just like

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kind of bumbling around and breaking shit.

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And yeah, not holding

it with responsibility.

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Byron Ballard: Well, and I would

suggest that's a less settler

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culture than it is urban culture.

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Because urban people feel so

completely separate from land.

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And, yeah, it's easy to be out

in the middle of, you know, a

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hundred acre national forest and

go, whoa, I'm so connected to the

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land and the energy of this place.

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It's harder if you're an urban

person, but that's still the earth.

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Every bit of the material that

is the urban human construct

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comes out of this planet.

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It's it's not imported from Mars, right?

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And so the more we can think about

the skin that is on the land.

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So if you're if you're a rural person,

you deal with the skin on the land.

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You want to enhance the soil.

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So you have a good garden

or a thriving orchard.

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You want to make sure there aren't

toxins in your land as much as you can.

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You're going to be ostensibly more

in touch with soil than people in the

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urban setting, but people in cities

are also deep into the heart of land.

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And, and we don't talk

about that nearly enough.

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Every pagan I know practically is like,

oh, it's so hard now living in this city.

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But when I get to move out onto

the land, when I get to move to the

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country, and most of these people

will never move to the country.

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They might move to the suburbs and

have a big backyard, but they're

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not going to move to the country.

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And so helping people understand that a

built environment is still environment

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is really, really important that you can

access land spirits and ancestors and

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all that from a city as easily as you

can from your big suburban backyard or

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from the middle of a national forest.

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The techniques may be a little bit

different, but mostly it's your attitude.

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If you feel like you, you are

walled off from land and you

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can, Oh, I can't touch it.

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I can't be part of it because

it's concrete and it's steel and

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all that, well, embrace that.

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Embrace what steel is.

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Steel is extraordinary.

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Concrete is extraordinary.

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And when you can put your hands on

the pavement of a major city, You

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feel the energy and the lifeblood, not

only of that urban human structure,

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but you feel the lifeblood of the

land and the soil underneath it.

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And that's powerful and it's palpable.

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Liz Childs Kelly: Well, I, and I feel like

this is kind of a perfect tee up into

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talking about this concept of your latest

book, Feral Church, which I just like, as

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soon as I heard the title, I'm like, yes.

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Yes.

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Tell, yeah, talk about it.

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Where did the idea come from?

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Yeah.

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Okay, I'm going to try,

try to be brief about this.

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Don't be brief.

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You

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Byron Ballard: just take your time.

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We will hear more and more about

this as as the time goes on.

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ripens.

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I was where I was actually this past week.

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I was in Southern Ohio in a place

called Wisteria and Wisteria is a

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600 plus acre nature preserve that is

also a campground and event center.

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I was there when we learned that Carol

Christ had died and I never knew her.

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I always felt like she was a teacher,

but I, I never had the privilege

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of studying directly with her.

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And for listeners that

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Liz Childs Kelly: haven't heard of her,

can you tell them who the, who she is?

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Byron Ballard: She is one

of the foremothers of the

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modern goddess movement.

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She wrote some incredible books.

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She wrote some incredible short pieces

that appear in different places.

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The best I can tell you is

Google her name, Carol P.

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Christ.

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Dr.

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Carol Christ and look at

some of the things that she's

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written and, and drink them in.

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So she, she died and I mourned her and was

sitting in a chair drinking coffee laced

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with whiskey, to be honest, and several

other women that I knew came around and

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we were saying, oh, this is so horrible.

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We had known she'd been ill for some

time, so it was not a surprise, but still.

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You know how that is.

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It's still a punch in the gut.

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So I'm on my way home from that event

and me coming home is about six and

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a half hours, maybe seven hours.

379

So I had plenty of time as I'm driving

through the glory that is West Virginia.

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It was just, it was extraordinary.

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Green, a million shades of green.

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And the whole time I'm hearing

in my head, you need to write

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a book about the goddess.

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And I was like, no, I don't think so.

385

That's been done plenty of those

around plenty of that happening.

386

And I kept resisting it.

387

And I like to think it was Dr.

388

Christ herself being like, tap,

tap, tap, tap, tap, tag, you're it.

389

But no matter who it was, whether

it was my subconscious or my guilty

390

conscience or ancestors or notable

goddess thealogians I finally answered

391

myself as I kept saying, why me?

392

Why me?

393

Well, why me is that I've always my

entire life been a goddess worshiper.

394

I'm one of eight people who

started a goddess temple

395

that's been around 18 years.

396

So why not me?

397

And it's time now for the next

batch of goddess theology.

398

Because we, we had a lot of that

in the, in the 80s, early 90s.

399

And since then, many things have

kind of roiled through that.

400

So it was time for a new, I'm not going

to say a new approach because veneration

401

is veneration and you will choose your

venerative process that I don't, I don't

402

believe anybody gets to tell other people

how they can worship, but it was time

403

to look at it a little differently.

404

And the, the phrase, a feral church came

into my head and , I used it long before

405

the book was even halfway finished.

406

I was saying feral

church, it's feral church.

407

And when I went to the first

publisher, Who is not the group

408

that actually published it.

409

They sat on the book for 11, almost 12

months because they weren't sure how

410

to do it because, ooh, goddess, ooh.

411

And so I withdrew that proposal and then

I gave it to the, the group I'm currently

412

working with, which is Llewellyn books

and they said, well, yeah, of course, but

413

even they, Have been a little reticent

about the concept of doing a book with

414

the word goddess in the title And I

think because they think and rightly so

415

that there's going to be some backlash

about that When we started Mother Grove

416

Goddess Temple, I was doing a lot of

interfaith at the time, and there were

417

Episcopal priests who came to me and

said, a goddess temple, how very cool.

418

Listen, if you are going to build

a temple, you need to immediately

419

put an endowment in place because

we just had to replace the roof on

420

our historical building, and it was

a million dollars, so make sure.

421

Get an endowment.

422

Another priest said, if you're going to

put in a playground, we just did that.

423

So it's very specific, the kind

of things you can and can't do.

424

So let me know.

425

I'll give you my pamphlets.

426

I'll connect you with our guy.

427

And a Baptist preacher, who is a

friend, Said you're gonna need a

428

special kind of insurance for a church.

429

So when you're ready for that insurance

you come to me I'll take you to my

430

guy and we'll we'll figure out what

that how we can get that need met.

431

So they were Incredibly supportive

the people who were not supportive

432

were in fact some members of the pagan

community Because their immediate

433

question was what about the God?

434

Well, what about the God?

435

And I explained as gently as I could

for someone who is in the fervor

436

of starting a brand new thing.

437

I said, well, it's a goddess temple.

438

That's what we all feel we've been

called to create, a goddess temple.

439

And so if you are interested in doing a

temple for the God, I'm, I'm glad to walk

440

you through our process of how we did

our articles, articles of incorporation,

441

how we are doing our federal papers.

442

I'm glad to walk you through that.

443

This is a goddess temple.

444

And then I heard, well, pagans

have so little money, wouldn't it

445

be better to do a temple that's

like a goddess and a god temple?

446

And we were very clear, and we are still

clear to this very day, that we are a

447

place where you can celebrate the goddess.

448

The goddesses, the divine feminine,

the female divine, however it is, you,

449

you wrap words around that concept.

450

So if you are someone who loves the

Blessed Virgin, but you really don't

451

want to be Catholic, you can come

to us because she's here with us.

452

If you love the Shekinah,

she's here with us.

453

If you have been deeply acculturated

into your African ancestry, but you

454

still find yourself going to an AME

church, but you would like a little more

455

Yoruban, Yemaya, Oshun stuff, come to us.

456

So we're not a coven, we're not a,

a pagan temple per se, but we are

457

a place Where the worship of the

divine feminine is celebrated and

458

honored and there is a place for it.

459

I put up a page recently on

Facebook for Feral Church.

460

And one of the first comments

was, well, what about the God?

461

And my response is, well, this

is a book of goddess theology.

462

So frankly, there's not.

463

Really anything about the God.

464

I think I mentioned Dionysus in passing

because I'm talking about the mean ads,

465

but other than that, you're not really.

466

Well, why not?

467

Well, why not?

468

Because I worship the

goddess and the God equally.

469

Well, chances are no, you don't, but

I'm not going to challenge you on that

470

because, and as I said to this person,

if that works for you, Beautiful.

471

But this book is a book

of goddess theology.

472

You might wanna look at it because it may,

it may bulk up your own practice for the

473

divine feminine that you honor so much.

474

But pretty insistent that no, if

it doesn't have the, the two of

475

them together, that doesn't count.

476

Mm-Hmm,

477

.

Liz Childs Kelly: So, I'm,

478

Byron Ballard: I'm looking forward to to

answering that question a thousand times.

479

the, isn't there any God in here?

480

Huh?

481

Liz Childs Kelly: Oh my gosh, right.

482

And are we asking that question

to every Christian church?

483

Where's the goddess?

484

You know, where's the,

where is, where is she?

485

I have a funny story about that.

486

Actually, you know, those billboards

that I don't know if you have them, but

487

you know, they were all over California.

488

I know I've seen them on road trips

around here too, which is like big

489

old billboards that say I don't

know, like, does Jesus love you?

490

Call this number and find out,

or whatever, like, that's like, 1

491

855 TRUTH or something like that.

492

And it's more than that,

but you know what I mean.

493

And I was driving back from

Mount Shasta with a friend.

494

And we're talking about how, like,

what would they say if we called

495

them up and ask them who the Divine

Feminine is or where the Goddess is?

496

And can God be a woman?

497

And my friend that was with

me is like, let's find out.

498

And so she calls and

the first person we get.

499

And I want to, I really want to say the

people that were answering the phone

500

were lovely, like really lovely people.

501

The first person that answered

the phone, she said, hi, you know,

502

I'm just wondering, can, can God,

can God be a, a woman like how,

503

you know, how do you see that?

504

And there was this long, long pause.

505

And then she said I'm going

to have to transfer you.

506

And then she transferred us to

another person and he Oh, bless him.

507

You could hear him.

508

He was kind of spinning scripture in his

head, trying to figure out the answer.

509

And then finally was like, well, no,

you know, it says, like, it did just,

510

I forget what he said, but you know,

no, no, no, you know, it's just like

511

God, that's just how God presents.

512

He's a man.

513

But you know, God can be a mother.

514

And and my friend Erica is

like, well, if God can be a

515

mother, why, why isn't he a she?

516

And the poor guy, he was so flustered.

517

She wasn't being, and

my friend was not being.

518

You know, mean or anything.

519

She's just questioning him, but

it was it was kind of entertaining

520

just to hear that whole spinning.

521

So, I mean, if we all did that on a

regular basis, like, where's the goddess?

522

Then maybe it would make sense to

come back and say, where's the God?

523

Yeah,

524

Byron Ballard: yeah, exactly.

525

Well, and how many books are there

about Thor and Odin and Lou and,

526

And, and people like me don't say,

well, I mean, what about Danu?

527

What about, what about Freya?

528

What about, because, because we are, I

don't know, polytheists, so it doesn't

529

have to be one thing or another.

530

Yeah, so that was interesting.

531

But the process of writing the

book, and I've been, I've been

532

telling this to people and they

look at me like I'm a little hmm.

533

I normally, when I have an idea for

a book, this is my eighth book, when

534

I have an idea for a book, I start

sketching out like a rough outline,

535

and then that will turn into something

that would be like a table of contents.

536

Always, that's the way it's done.

537

With this book, I decided The concepts

I wanted to really explore and I decided

538

the land in which I wanted to explore

them and then I would do basically a

539

journey, a path working into that place.

540

And to see what would happen.

541

And then when it was

done, I'd write it down.

542

And I did that again and again.

543

And you and I were talking before we

started about last year was a really

544

long, busy year for me because I did a

lot of traveling and in between I would

545

come home and travel to places like.

546

the great prairie before

humans came along.

547

I would travel to the steps.

548

I would travel to all these mythical and

distant places and dive deep into them.

549

So it was like a whole year of

just traveling from place to place.

550

And that, that was so

remarkably different.

551

I don't know that I would ever

write another book like that,

552

but this book wanted that.

553

This book wanted boots on the

ground or bare feet on the ground.

554

This book wanted exploration,

not in an intellectual head

555

way, but in a spirit way.

556

So, yeah.

557

And I just sent a couple more notes.

558

I wanted to add some people

to my acknowledgements.

559

And I sent that back to

my line editor, Lauren.

560

And if you're listening,

Lauren, you're the best.

561

I love you.

562

And she'd asked me to write another

paragraph in one of the chapters.

563

And I did, and I sent that back to her.

564

But then I had the document open in front

of me, which I haven't had in a while.

565

a month or more and I read the end of

the book and I cried because it's exactly

566

what I want it to be and the book ends

in Avebury and in about two weeks and

567

two days I will be in Avebury again.

568

Amazing.

569

So it's, I mean, it's a deeply personal,

but it's also deeply theological.

570

And I was very clear that I

wanted the word thealogy spelled

571

T H E A, that it's a, a goddess

book, a work of goddess thealogy.

572

And the, the original subtitle,

and I won't be able to remember

573

the new subtitle, sorry.

574

The original subtitle was Feral Church,

Finding Goddess in the Wilderness.

575

Well, they changed the subtitle a few

months ago, I guess, to something like

576

a path working for health community

and magic, something like that.

577

And I said, It really has to have

goddess in the subtitle and and

578

they were well, I mean, we're trying

to get it It's widest readership

579

possible and I was like, oh, yeah.

580

No.

581

No, I get that.

582

I absolutely get that But if it doesn't

have goddess in the title, then I have

583

a problem So we got all that worked out

and now it does have a path of working

584

to find community Magic and the goddess.

585

So we got the goddess back in it,

but I think that they are They're

586

kind of wondering how it is.

587

They're going to promote

it without getting backlash

588

But we're going to get it.

589

And we need to understand that part of

the reason this book had to happen, part

590

of the reason you do the work you do is

that we don't take goddess seriously.

591

Yes.

592

Goddess is the thing that sells razors.

593

So you can have perfectly smooth legs.

594

Goddess is a woman of Of

impossible dimensions, who is

595

there as a in service to man.

596

There's a whole lot that goddess

has become that is not a being so

597

powerful or a family of beings so

powerful that they will kick your ass.

598

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes,

599

Byron Ballard: and we need to

remember that we need to remember

600

that when there is flooding in

the Midwest and my land is dry.

601

That that's the work of the planet

and the planet is goddess, too.

602

So if you think goddess is some soft,

loving I want you to remember back to

603

the 60s with that margarine commercial

where a woman dressed in a green leafy

604

headdress She's got a green wreath and

a green outfit is given this tub of

605

margarine she tasted and says, Oh, I

love butter or whatever and they say

606

it's margarine and she goes, it's not

nice to fool mother nature, and then

607

she goes, so we need to remember that

that concept that being those beings

608

that we wrap this around our beings

of immense power and great authority.

609

And they are done with being demoted

in the way that they, that they slash

610

we have been demoted for 6, 000 years.

611

Done.

612

Done.

613

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes, preach since

we're in church and I wanted to ask

614

you, I feel like we're kind of dancing

around it, but I, I want to ask you to

615

be explicit because I feel it's feel

so important to me to help us connect

616

the dots between that concept of being

feral and the goddess and the divine

617

feminine and how you see those things,

coming together, like, to me, it's a

618

very felt sense but I, yeah, I wonder

if you could talk about that some.

619

Byron Ballard: Well, it's hard

for us to talk about because

620

we are so incredibly not free.

621

And feral is free.

622

Yeah.

623

The primacy of freedom

cannot be understated.

624

So if you are a feral cat, you may

not live a very long life, but you

625

live it the way you intend to live it.

626

And the idea that church, this thing that

is, a big building that requires insurance

627

and it requires a new roof and and you

got to get all the seats filled with some

628

bottoms that have a little bit of money to

help with the upkeep of what you're doing.

629

That's what church has become for us.

630

Church has become for many of us that

status that you achieve so you don't have

631

to pay Taxes on your land and building.

632

Church is more than that.

633

And what I'm, and this is the first time

I'm saying this in a really public way.

634

But I feel like what we, not just me,

but all of us are doing with the concept

635

of feral church is that we are going

into this beautiful, exquisite, ancient,

636

ancient building that no longer functions

as it used to, that no longer has people

637

like it used to, to love and tend it.

638

We're going into that structure and

we are pulling out the copper pipes.

639

And the wiring, and we're taking away

the beautiful carved mantles and the

640

newel posts, and we are renewing them.

641

So we are taking, I am taking, the

movement is taking back things that,

642

that have been left to languish.

643

And one of those concepts is

the idea of a house church.

644

So, You may not need a great big

building to hold your public rituals in.

645

Maybe you call together seven

other people and you do it at home.

646

And the Christians , had a

strong tradition of house church.

647

And right wing Christians often still do.

648

But there's no reason goddess

worshipers can't have that.

649

No reason.

650

So that we can be together in a place

that is safe, where we can begin to

651

stretch our wings and And use our power.

652

We have spent, and I know you and

I have talked about this before.

653

We have spent so many decades in

empowerment circles, figuring out

654

where's our power, how can we,

what is, and then finally we stood

655

up and we stood in our power.

656

But the thing we have got to do

now is we've got to learn to wield

657

power, and we've got to learn to

wield it in a way that it has not

658

been modeled in a long long time.

659

And I always refer back to Eisler's

Chalice and the Blade because she was

660

so explicit in that book about we think

power is this thing which is subjugating

661

others, which is being on top power

over versus power with and she was clear

662

about where dominator culture comes

from, and that it is not a natural order.

663

It's an imposed order on

human culture and society.

664

So we have some models.

665

But what we see around us constantly is

a strong person, usually a strong man,

666

on top of a very oppressive system.

667

And that has to go.

668

Liz Childs Kelly: It has to go now.

669

Byron Ballard: Should have gone a thousand

years ago, but right now, it's going.

670

It's going.

671

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah, two things that

I thought of as you were sharing that

672

was one this idea of a house church to

me feels really like one of the things

673

that I see and I acknowledge like even in

myself, , we tend to really hold a lot of

674

things through a capitalist lens because

that's what we've been taught to do.

675

And also, like, with all the patriarchal

structures, so hierarchy, like, if you're

676

going to build something, it needs to

get bigger and bigger, and then you've

677

got to put all this structure around it

to hold it, and inevitably you're like,

678

well, in order to hold that structure,

I'm going to have to have hierarchy,

679

and, and it becomes this, this thing.

680

And so to me, like, the idea of

house church is It's fundamentally

681

anti capitalist in nature.

682

It's just sort of

stepping outside of that.

683

And it doesn't have to be like, Oh, this

is intentional to burn this shit down.

684

It's also like, no, but we,

this functions outside of that.

685

So when that system collapses, which

it's going to, when is the question,

686

but it's going to, this still is going

to hold us because it's not beholden.

687

It didn't, it wasn't built on those

You know, those that that foundation

688

that has to go along with capitalism.

689

And so to me, it just makes sense.

690

It's about community and it's

about holding on to a sense

691

of the sacred outside of.

692

This old paradigm that's crumbling.

693

Yeah,

694

Byron Ballard: yeah,

695

Liz Childs Kelly: yeah, we're

696

Byron Ballard: going fast enough to

get out the marble staircases to where

697

we're going to take everything of value

that can be repurposed and reused,

698

but all community has to start here.

699

And it, and then it goes from there

to your hearth, however you define

700

that, whether that's your family, your

intentional family, you, you and your

701

cat, your dog, whatever that is, and

everything has to grow out from there.

702

So it has to grow out organically,

and it can't grow into this.

703

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah, since she's

pointing to like heart to hearth and then

704

vertically for those who are listening.

705

Yeah,

706

Byron Ballard: And you you said it so

well about when all of it collapses

707

and it's collapsing now me where

we're watching that in real time

708

when it has completed its collapse.

709

We have to have systems in place

or else we'll build it again.

710

We've done that again and again.

711

We need to have systems in place.

712

So if it starts from your heart, to your

hearth, to your immediate neighborhood,

713

to your community, to your city, to

your county, to your state, to your

714

region, to your nation, to the earth.

715

If that is how it grows out, then we're

talking about the way mycelium works.

716

We're also talking about an ancient

concept of if you've got a circle that

717

is strong and let's say that's your your

house your hearth church is probably

718

what that's going to be called so that's

your hearth church and it's strong and

719

you connect with another hearth church

and that's strong and then you connect

720

with a third hearth church and then

you're starting to create a chain and

721

that's strong it's stronger than the

sum of its parts but when you Move that

722

dimensionally, then what you have is

chain mail and that is incredibly strong.

723

That is the suburban chain link

fence that keeps the dog on that

724

side and your kid on this side.

725

And so we, when we start to look again

and again at structures, then we can

726

understand that there is a natural order

in way, in the ways that things grow.

727

But there's also an imposed order and we

can work past the imposed order to get

728

the maximum amount of freedom that we

can in our search for the feral church.

729

Liz Childs Kelly: I love that.

730

Yes.

731

The other thing that came up as you

were saying that is so something that

732

I've been doing with a friend locally

is we just call it emergent ritual

733

and we get together on the full moon

and we really do not have an agenda.

734

We like our we just listen the day

or two before and are like, what?

735

What is what's coming forward for you?

736

And it could be very deeply personal,

you know, like my my personal life's

737

kind of There's a bit of a shit show

these days, you know, so like that's

738

guiding me you know, but like for her

like what's coming forward like that

739

and we take that and that's our fodder

and then We but then we start to pull in

740

the other elements too so that could be

magic tools that could be like I want to

741

I'm really feeling called to bring this

Particular tarot deck or I really like

742

this stone from my backyard Which by the

way is where I tend to work these days.

743

I say no No judgment on your beautiful

crystals and stuff like that.

744

Everything has purpose, but i'm really

really into place right now So this

745

stone from my backyard is calling me.

746

I want to bring that And where

did we want to, where on the

747

earth did we want to do this?

748

We try really hard to be outside

most of the time, if we can.

749

And then we just get in the space

and see what's going to happen.

750

And it's.

751

It's fucking cool, first of all,

but it feels really powerful.

752

And to me that I think, and it's right

now it's just she and I, because we're

753

very much in the same wavelength.

754

And again, we're just listening when

we'll be the right time to invite other

755

people into this, who are kind of holding

that we just happen to be really on the

756

same energetic frequency, but like what

those people will come if, and when they

757

need to come and just let it all emerge.

758

And to me, that feels very much

like what you're talking about

759

with like hearth hearth church too.

760

Yes.

761

Byron Ballard: Would you agree?

762

Yeah.

763

Oh yeah, absolutely.

764

At, at Appalachian Summer Solstice no

one had scheduled a solstice ritual.

765

They just, I don't know why

it didn't go on the schedule.

766

I don't plan it.

767

And so, I was sitting with some

friends And we were saying,

768

what time is solstice tomorrow?

769

Well, we're going to get together.

770

We're going to meet here at your camp.

771

Then we're going to go out and

we're going to do something.

772

Well, I don't know what that is.

773

The next morning, another friend,

which turned into a group of

774

friends said, I am so angry, there

is not a ritual for the solstice.

775

I wanted to do a ritual and I was

like, well, we're doing this thing

776

and she and her friends had gotten

a bag of organic meadow flower seed.

777

And there was a place that had been,

they'd done some construction and

778

it was all chewed up, and they were

going to go there and plant the seeds

779

and put straw over them and hurrah.

780

And I said, Well, why don't

we put all that together?

781

Great.

782

So we put all that together.

783

And again, we didn't call the quarters,

we didn't have a written statement, we

784

just all kind of circled up and said

some things and, and put our hands over

785

the seeds to, to imbue them with as

much power for fertility as we could.

786

And then we did the thing.

787

And another person was like,

well, when is the full moon?

788

That's the same time as solstice, right?

789

And we're like, no, full moon's tomorrow.

790

Well, there's not a full moon ritual.

791

I was like, we can do a full moon ritual.

792

So we went down to this really

beautiful little sacred grove.

793

And we, I had some candles with me

and somebody else brought strawberries

794

because it was a strawberry moon.

795

And we just did a full moon ritual.

796

So it doesn't require training.

797

It doesn't require a degree.

798

It doesn't require any of that.

799

What it requires is your open heart and

your sincerity and your willingness to

800

make a space where the goddess can be.

801

Yes.

802

Yeah.

803

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah, for sure.

804

And what is also coming up, and if people

have been listening to the shows that

805

I've done this year, this is a kind of a

running theme that I've been exploring.

806

I don't start out the year with

themes, but I feel like this one

807

feels important, because it just

keeps coming up in different ways.

808

And it is, and I feel like it's

speaking to what you're talking about

809

with Feral Church too, which is when

we get too focused on the container.

810

Then we lose the potentiality of

the, the sacred, like the, the

811

goddess, if you will, like she is

just like, oh, she's potentiality.

812

She is, she is emergent.

813

And that's the kind of energy that we

really need to tap into right now as all

814

these old structures start to crumble.

815

And You know, the containers of

the familiarity and the ritual,

816

even from a pagan perspective,

I think can be really helpful.

817

And they're almost reassuring

in a way, you know, like this

818

is, this is the way you do it.

819

This is how you do it.

820

And in, and in some ways that I, that

makes sense to me because we're calling

821

back to ancestral wisdom, or we're at

least trying to, and all that's valuable.

822

And, you know, actually I'm thinking

of Cerridwen Fallingstar, who was

823

one of my first guests on this show,

like, you know, way, way back saying

824

like, Oh, I practice magic the way

my ancestors did 60, 000 years ago.

825

I make it up.

826

Like we don't, we also have to

remember that it was emergent.

827

There was no, like, it was just

somebody or a group of people that

828

was like, Hey, let's try this.

829

This felt powerful.

830

Let's see what's going to come through.

831

And we, so whatever ritual we're holding,

we also have to make space for that, that

832

energy, which to me is like also what

you're talking about with feral church.

833

Byron Ballard: And it's,

it's a living tradition.

834

Now it may have been slumbering in many

places for a long time, but it's a living.

835

And so it's going to change

and it's going to be different.

836

And my idea of God is

maybe different than yours.

837

I consider myself a hard polytheist.

838

And so I see.

839

I see a plethora of them.

840

They are everywhere doing

everything, but also I'm an animist.

841

So for me, the big, our big round

mama earth, that's maybe as much a

842

goddess as any of us really need.

843

Oh yeah.

844

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah.

845

And I love that you even just named

that because there's sort of a,

846

there's a paradox in that, right?

847

Like polytheist and animist or

like, you know, or that, that it,

848

to me, that's, that is the goddess.

849

She's the yes.

850

And.

851

I'm this and this.

852

I'm everywhere.

853

I'm all the things.

854

I

855

Byron Ballard: just,

I've always thought that.

856

I, I was asked to help do

that UU curriculum cakes for

857

the Queen of Heaven year.

858

And I was talking about, oh, this

goddess and that goddess, and I'm

859

sure I got very verbose and smiley

and oh, I, I just love Inanna.

860

She's and this retired UU minister

just looked at me kind of funny and

861

she said, Are you saying you think

that the goddesses are really real?

862

Because she only worked with

sort of Jungian archetypes.

863

And the idea that I could think that

these were non corporeal spirit beings

864

who interacted with us but were not us,

she, she was just like, she, she looked

865

at, I call it my Papua New Guinea moment,

because she looked at me like, like I had

866

a bone through my nose, and I suddenly

was, you know, dancing around a fire.

867

Which is okay, I mean, I'm happy.

868

Not the bone through the nose thing,

but the dancing around the fire

869

naked eye, I'm happy to do that.

870

More than happy to do that.

871

But, yeah, and, and this book,

plus I guess my overall feeling

872

about the divine feminine and the

worship of them, her, their, of.

873

It gets tangled, doesn't it, and

complicated is that it's going to

874

be different for a lot of people and

for some people it's the archetype

875

and that's all they need and for some

people they need to know that somewhere

876

out there is a spirit being that is

called by the name that they pray to.

877

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes.

878

Byron Ballard: And for some

people it's only there is a,

879

there is a unity in the plurality.

880

For others, there's only just an insane

plurality of all these female divinities.

881

And all of that's right.

882

All of that's absolutely correct

because there's not dogma.

883

The only dogma is that the Divine Feminine

exists and we have ample evidence all

884

around us in the land with which we dwell.

885

Yes.

886

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah, I was also

thinking of that quote from Starhawk

887

when she said, you know, when people

ask me, do I believe in the goddess?

888

I say to them, do you believe in rocks?

889

Yes, of course.

890

Yeah.

891

And I think the where I feel like, well,

okay, we'll just keep it in my experience

892

where I get bristly is when people

try to say it's only this one thing.

893

Well, to your point, like, oh, the

goddess is only archetypal energy or

894

the goddess is only this expression or

the goddess is only the great mother

895

and that's all that existed or whatever.

896

And to me, it's just so like anywhere

where we're trying to find the one

897

answer feels patriarchal to me that

you're in the land of monotheism there

898

and patriarchy and yeah, and now we've

stepped out of the world of the goddess.

899

Thanks.

900

Byron Ballard: Right

901

Liz Childs Kelly: and as if we

can step out of the world of the

902

goddess also paradox, but yeah

903

Byron Ballard: Yes.

904

Yes, I think we can too.

905

Yeah, I have to agree with that.

906

There are I remember somebody

described it years ago.

907

They didn't like the idea of Matriarchy

of a matriarchal thing because it just

908

felt like Jehovah in drag And, and the,

the point of the mother world is that

909

it's life affirming and not life denying.

910

And that if that is the basic grounding

of it, that's enough to make it different

911

than, than what the dominant culture

honors, that it's about living fully.

912

It's about honoring the birthing process

and the gestational process, whether

913

they are literal birthing and gestation.

914

Or they are metaphorical

birthing and gestation.

915

So it is both the pain and glory of

a child slipping out of a uterus,

916

but it is also the creation of

new art, and of new, and of new

917

thought forms, and, and of newness.

918

That must then be nurtured and tended

into a maturity where it can create

919

its own newness and then it's very

different than what we've lived

920

with now for thousands of years.

921

Liz Childs Kelly: Yes, so much so.

922

I love it.

923

I can't even, so we've run out of time.

924

Like, I don't even know how we did that.

925

That was, this was really fast.

926

It doesn't surprise me.

927

I'm, I'm so excited

for this book of yours.

928

I know it's not coming out for a

little bit longer, so who knows?

929

Maybe it'll be my first three peat

and come back and talk to me about

930

it again when it actually comes out.

931

I, we have to get you

a crown or something.

932

I, I, she's going to have to

be like a crown of flowers and

933

vines, you know, since it's feral.

934

Byron Ballard: Oh, that sounds good.

935

Oh, yeah.

936

And I will say that the book is

available for pre order and if you

937

pre order it from my local indie

bookstore, which is malaprops.

938

com, M A L A P R O P S dot com.

939

When it comes in, they will call me, and

I will go sit at a table, and I will sign

940

your book for you, and put a bookmark

in it, and they will ship it off to you.

941

Now, you get your books wherever you

normally get books, but if you do it that

942

way, then you get one signed from me.

943

And, you know, some people like that.

944

And I love doing it with them.

945

It's

946

Liz Childs Kelly: a wonderful bookstore.

947

Oh, that's awesome.

948

Okay.

949

So I'm going to put that

in the show notes for sure.

950

Byron Ballard: Yeah,

951

Liz Childs Kelly: absolutely.

952

And yeah, thank you as always.

953

It's so good to be in

conversation with you.

954

I love it.

955

Love it so much.

956

Thanks

957

Byron Ballard: for everything and, and

best of luck in your exciting adventures.

958

Liz Childs Kelly: Yeah, thank you.

959

Thanks to all of you guys for listening

to, so much more fun to do this because I

960

know you're out there and if you like the

show As always you can write it a review.

961

You don't even have to write the review.

962

You can give it five

stars That'd be great.

963

You can tell other people about it.

964

Yeah, whatever you want If you're just

feeling lazy, just click the stars and

965

you're good You can tell other people

about it and you can you can subscribe

966

You can do all those things check out all

the stuff going on at home to her academy.

967

com home to her.

968

com Take real good care of yourselves.

969

I would recommend get outside and

do something feral for yourself.

970

Go run around naked.

971

Well, maybe not around a fire because

it's really hot right now, but you

972

know, go, go howl at the moon, go

get your bare feet in the dirt.

973

Do something to reconnect with that great

mother goddess through, through the earth.

974

And until next time, take good care of

yourself and I'll be with you again soon.

975

Home to Her is hosted by me, Liz Kelly.

976

You can visit me online at hometoher.

977

com, where you can find show

notes and other episodes.

978

You can read articles about the

Sacred Feminine, and you'll also

979

find a link to join the Home to

Her Facebook group for lots more

980

discussion and exploration of Her.

981

You can also follow me on Instagram,

at home to her, to keep up to

982

date with the latest episodes.

983

Thanks so much for joining us

and we'll see you back here soon.