Description:

In this special annual trends episode of Reimagining Work from Within, Jeff Melnyk and Carol Kondo explore what it means to step into 2025 with intention. From Carol’s personal journey of starting over in a new country to Jeff reflecting on entering a new decade of life, they discuss the power of letting go as a form of growth. They dive into four key trends shaping leadership this year—bringing cultures together, redefining growth on your own terms, the ongoing evolution of flexible work, and the role of AI in human-centered leadership. Tune in for an insightful and thought-provoking conversation on how leaders can navigate change, embrace uncertainty, and create space for something new.

Show Notes:

• [00:00] Carol’s journey of moving countries and what it means to start over
• [04:00] Why letting go—not just setting goals—can be the most powerful way to grow
• [09:15] Trend #1: Bringing cultures together—why DEI is shifting and what leaders need to let go of
• [16:30] Trend #2: Redefining growth—breaking away from outdated success metrics
• [21:00] Trend #3: Rethinking connection in hybrid and flexible work environments
• [26:07] Trend #4: AI and leadership—how embracing technology can make leadership more human
• [34:00] Key takeaways—how leaders can step into 2025 with intention and courage

They did a picture, so I was swapping it from the South African one

2

to this one, I get into the store, and

this guy says sit there and do not smile.

3

The minute he said, do not smile,

I started laughing and I said

4

to him, please bear with me.

5

I just need to laugh and finish.

6

So he stood there and I laughed for

7

five

8

And, you know, he was, you know

the Brits have this, can you just

9

go watch it, you have to do a

10

.

Jeff Melnyk: Off.

11

No, he would not have enjoyed that,

12

Carol Kondo: Well, I couldn't stop.

13

eventually I finished laughing.

14

Then I'm like, okay.

15

Now, the giggles are gone.

16

I'm ready.

17

Then he takes the picture.

18

But I'm sure when I left the store he must

have thought of a lot of funny things.

19

But anyway, , welcome to

the UK from me in Africa

20

Jeff Melnyk: I love that you've

got your driver's license now.

21

That's a real right of passage.

22

Carol Kondo: I did.

23

But I look cute in my picture.

24

Yo, even I felt it.

25

I'm like, girl, you're looking nice.

26

Girl, you work

27

Jeff Melnyk: You gotta work

these, the bureaucratic photos.

28

Carol Kondo: I was looking nice.

29

I said to myself, this one will surely

get me a husband if I was stopped by

30

the traffic cops and they gave it out.

31

Jeff Melnyk: Anywho , welcome to 2025.

32

this is our, annual trends, podcast

of reimagining work from within.

33

As always, I am delighted

to be here with Ms.

34

Carol Kondo.

35

Hello, Carol.

36

Carol Kondo: Hi JF, excited can't believe

we've done 365 and I don't know how

37

many other extra days already and we're

back ready to give the January podcast.

38

Jeff Melnyk: It comes around quickly,

but Carol, last time I spoke to you,

39

You were in South Africa, and now you

are in the exotic and wonderful location

40

of Milton Keynes, United Kingdom.

41

You've moved across the world.

42

what was it like starting the

year in a brand new world?

43

Carol Kondo: Just try starting your life

again at 40, a new place, new country,

44

new clothes, new knives and forks.

45

There's something that loudly screams.

46

Starting again, a second or third

or even fourth chance requires you

47

to step up to the challenge of,

can I redefine what me looks like?

48

Can I enjoy what the space looks like?

49

Take what it has to offer?

50

And can I let go of some parts of

myself that belonged to South Africa?

51

Can I integrate with this new

place that I find myself in?

52

Jeff Melnyk: Every new year is, a

chance, for people to have that kind

53

of reset, but there surely is nothing

more of a reset than moving from one

54

country to another, you can't take the

furniture, you can't take the car, you

55

can't take All the things that might

not be serving you from South Africa

56

way of life, even just your wardrobe,

Carol, must be completely different

57

moving, especially the time of year, most

beautiful time of year in South Africa,

58

and you are in what I would describe as

my least favorite weather conditions.

59

January and February

in the United Kingdom.

60

Carol Kondo: I'll be

honest I've been facing it.

61

The cold.

62

It has a certain newness and

you don't get used to it.

63

Looking at pictures of colleagues

and friends in South Africa and

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it's blue skies and green trees.

65

You do miss the warmth.

66

So I have been upping my vitamin D so

that it creates some form of balance.

67

But there is something about the

process of packing up Jeff that

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we do not give enough respect to.

69

And there are things that we have

accumulated over the years that we

70

absolutely believe are so important to us.

71

But the day comes when you realize I

can only carry three suitcases some

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things I considered so important,

I either have to give them away.

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Or send them to your mother

that process, feels like grief.

74

the grief of leaving things behind

when I got here, forks are forks.

75

Knives are knives, understanding that

I'm letting go of something and really

76

leaving it in this country sometimes

giving it away can feel heart wrenching.

77

It's an act of kindness to hold

yourself gently during a time like this.

78

Jeff Melnyk: Absolutely.

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I think that is our theme for this

year's podcast last year, we talked

80

about setting an intention rather

than a New Year's resolution or goals.

81

That really served me throughout the year.

82

Over the Christmas break, I read about,

the root of the word resolution is the

83

Latin word resolvere, it means to loosen

or release, and I was thinking about

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how letting go, like, what if 2025 was a

process of letting go of things that don't

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serve us, beliefs as leaders that aren't

working for us, and editing out some

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busyness and the things that don't work.

87

You and I had a little chat about

that, earlier in the week, and

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I'm wondering, is there something

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Having just let go of quite

a few things in your move?

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Is there something intentionally

you've decided to let go of?

91

Carol Kondo: Jeff.

92

I am still in the process of purging, if

I could use that word, I think one thing

93

that I would really love to be intentional

about letting go in this particular year.

94

It's the idea that everything has to

be right for me to take the next step.

95

That has held me back with

enjoying the space I moved into.

96

Oh, I'll only be excited when I

have a couch oh, I'll only be really

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excited to eat if I have a fork,

which I forgot to buy, when I went

98

grocery shopping the first time.

99

So I had.

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Spaghetti with a spoon, the

spaghetti tasted great, with or

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without the fork or the spoon.

102

I have been taking away so much

from my own joy because of waiting

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for the right conditions to do

something and be in something.

104

So really trying to hold that card

up for myself in everything I do.

105

That doesn't take away, of course, from

preparation and trying to do things right.

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But I will not stop moving forward

because not everything is perfect.

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And I don't know what's

coming up for you as well.

108

What are you letting go?

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Why are you loosening, in 2025?

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Jeff Melnyk: Thank you

for that reflection.

111

For me, this is a whole new decade

I've stepped into my demi centenary.

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I am now officially an elder, and it feels

so weird to have to even step into that.

113

I think the first letting go, because

my birthday is right around the

114

New Year period, is letting go of

that feeling of loss of the decade

115

before and really stepping in.

116

To the new, one of the things I

did, I did do it like obviously as

117

being a goal setter, I did do an

entire con like through my whole

118

circle of life, work, relationships,

finances, health, all of those things.

119

I looked at it and thought,

where do I need to let go?

120

And I thought of letting

go for all of them.

121

One of the things I really want to let

go of is getting into the rut of habitual

122

patterns, I've built some really good

patterns over the last decade and some

123

good habits, but you find yourself in

a zombie like way of being, don't you?

124

Sort of you get up make your coffee,

you brush your teeth, these kind

125

of habits that help us to be in

the world and I find that it kind

126

of dulls your experience of life.

127

I wonder what it's like to let

go of some habits to step into

128

new experiences and adventures.

129

What would that look like in practice?

130

And I think a very real one would just be

like, You know, in your exercise regime,

131

are you doing the same running route?

132

Are you going to the gym at the same time?

133

What would happen if you went

counterclockwise around Golden

134

Gate Park instead of clockwise?

135

Who might you meet if you go to the gym?

136

At 3.

137

30pm instead of 5pm slot, and what

would that, would that look like?

138

Just also noting that going to the gym

in San Francisco is a very social thing.

139

You never know who you're gonna see at

the gym, is, is a truth beyond words.

140

So, stepping in can

happen from letting go.

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It's not just an act of shedding, is it?

142

Carol Kondo: Have you tried a new route,

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Jeff Melnyk: I was a little sick

over the holidays, so coming

144

back into my running route.

145

Letting go of the need to do as well

146

another key thing when you haven't been

feeling very well 10 kilometers right

147

off the back of it is not great letting

go of what you have to see on your

148

Nike run app is probably a good one.

149

Carol Kondo: Now, I'm pretty sure

there's a lot of lessons around

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the process then of when you start

running, you find yourself running

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in that particular direction.

152

And then there's that, I promised

myself I would try a different route.

153

I think it's that gap between the route

I'm used to and the one I intend to

154

take and the intentional turning of the

body pointing your feet in an opposite

155

direction that creates new patterns.

156

For leaders, it's important

for them to pause.

157

Put things in place, get their shoes

facing a different direction so that

158

they start other routes and start

other things for themselves as well.

159

And let's work with the

resistance of familiarity.

160

Jeff Melnyk: Exactly.

161

in that theme of letting go what

leaders need to do to point their

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shoes in possibly another direction,

we've been thinking about four

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trends coming our way this year.

164

I know everybody does a trend

podcast, but I hope this one

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might feel a little bit different.

166

Because as always, when you've got

Carol in the room, you can talk

167

about a trend the facts behind the

trend, but we're going to go a little

168

bit deeper today around why those

are in the waters for this year?

169

Carol, very interested in what

surfaces in our conversation but

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let me throw the first one at you.

171

You're ready.

172

Okay.

173

Here's the first one.

174

This theme we saw coming last

year anyways, but is definitely

175

going to be the top within.

176

Conversation throughout 2025 it's the

notion of bringing cultures together let

177

me give you a little positioning around

it, Carol, and I'd love your perspective

178

on it is in the realm of the political

sphere we're seeing polarization,

179

the separation of people into belief

systems of right or wrong left or right.

180

We're seeing it in almost all

the countries we operate in.

181

But also in this move away from the

DEI space around the need for folks

182

to get out of DEI strategies and that

notion of equity in the workplace.

183

I'm seeing a lot of companies like

McDonald's walmart and even Target have

184

been in the press around moving away from

DEI strategies, which we would see in our

185

line of work as bringing cultures together

and bringing people closer together..

186

I feel like there's something in

the leader's toolkit around their

187

job to bring cultures together.

188

I'm curious on your perspective of

what leaders need to let go of in

189

order to really step into that notion?

190

What do they get out of

bringing their culture together?

191

It sounds really obvious, but.

192

What do they get out of bringing

culture together and what do

193

they need to let go of this year?

194

I

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Carol Kondo: think I'll start with the

latter with, you know, I think they need

196

to let go of the assumption that when

they try it, it's going to work instantly.

197

And the fact that they are going to get

amazing results and everybody's going

198

to start hugging and singing Kumbaya,

that really takes away from the journey.

199

DEI is a long term journey not an

event, things will work, things

200

will fail, but we have to keep going

201

we fail minorities, we fail

people on the sidelines.

202

When we ditch an initiative that brings

cultures together because it's failing,

203

because there's a report that said

here and the other, but I feel like

204

there needs to be concerted effort.

205

To keep trying because what will

shift will shift and the conversations

206

that need to be had will be had.

207

Let's not let go of things because

they seem difficult that's the

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resilience factor when at the peak

of difficulty, where we feel it's

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absolutely dark, leaders need to

spend a bit more time in darkness.

210

Because the minute that they feel

the darkness has lasted for so long,

211

it's like, I have to get out of here.

212

I can't see.

213

But what would happen if we sat for

a moment longer in that darkness?

214

I feel like you will get over.

215

That climax of darkness and see

the solution that lies there.

216

So we're not staying long enough in

the discomfort of what's not working.

217

When things don't work,

that's a story in itself.

218

That's what needs to be probed.

219

Why aren't things shifting?

220

Why aren't, the groups working, we need

to bring curiosity rather than stepping

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back and saying, as an organization,

we're not going to carry on with DEI

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strategies, the wisdom to sit and

question why it's so dark in this place.

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I think it's important for

leaders to bring to the table.

224

Jeff Melnyk: So by darkness, you

mean that discomfort where we've been

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trying something, it's not working.

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Maybe our intention, around DEI, was

to make a workplace where everybody

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could feel that they belong.

228

But I'm still not getting it.

229

That sense of darkness is that

discomfort of it's not working.

230

The tendency is they want to throw

away the plans and strategies

231

because something hasn't been working

and move back to the status quo.

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Is that what you see?

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Carol Kondo: That's exactly it.

234

Moving to what's familiar.

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This is not working.

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Let's go back because what's, what's

happening here is they cut out stuff.

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That had been working.

238

the experience taught them something.

239

There's value in sitting down and

understanding what has been taught.

240

Now from this learning, can we expand

our perspectives around the current

241

position that we have and what changes do

we need to make rather than discarding?

242

Accepting that we have failed

as a business in some ways.

243

And hence, these problems still persist.

244

You have the people that are not

supposed to be leading DEI, leading DEI.

245

And that's a problem in itself.

246

So what would happen if we

swapped out different individuals?

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That will lead us to the light.

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Jeff Melnyk: I'm kind of worried in

this one around the dominoes falling.

249

You see these big corporations who've

said, this wasn't working for us anymore.

250

We're not seeing the value.

251

So we're going to stop doing it.

252

It feels like it gives permission to

other companies to not be accountable

253

for the strategies they had in place.

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We've been working with great companies

who've been leaning into these strategies

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who want to bring their cultures together,

especially in the notion of hybrid or

256

flexible working where people are feeling

even more disconnected from each other,

257

no matter what their background is.

258

And I know that's a trend you want

to talk about in a second, and I'm

259

excited on your perspective on that too.

260

It's not everybody that's moving

away, but when you start to see the

261

dominoes fall, that ease of like, oh

well McDonald's has moved away from

262

it, Walmart has moved away from it, it

mustn't be working for anybody, that

263

is a darkness in itself, isn't it?

264

Carol Kondo: I share the same concern

because by virtue of being human beings

265

and really appreciating the journeys big

corporations have been on, when you see

266

big corporations saying no to something,

when you're a smaller business, you'll

267

definitely say, if you see McDonald's

saying no, it's definitely not working,

268

but that doesn't necessarily apply to you.

269

So there is danger in

following the big ones.

270

And there's also a responsibility

I think that big corporations have

271

towards the rest of the world.

272

they might stand up and

say, it's not our business.

273

You know, you run your own business.

274

But because you represent something in

society and a large part of whoever we

275

are has some form of relationship with

your brand corporations are about people.

276

It's sad when bigger corporations

with bigger budgets, more access

277

to resources decide to step back

because who then gets into the ring.

278

We need people in the ring.

279

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, they're there to

lead and show the way by their size

280

and nature, but when they step back, it

is an act of defeat on their part, the

281

way the McDonald's and Walmart press

releases over the past couple of weeks

282

were, championing their grand decision

towards this, but I saw it as an act

283

of, cowardice, you cannot face that some

things aren't working and instead of being

284

truthful about hey, we've been trying

some stuff That's not working for us.

285

We're not finding the talent.

286

We're maybe not bringing people

together in the way We wanted to

287

we're not creating that culture.

288

We wanted that act of honesty

they turned their back.

289

This happened in the

sustainability movement as well

290

Carol Kondo: Imagine the news headline

if it had been written as, we actually

291

don't know what we have been doing wrong

or we don't know what's not working here.

292

That would have brought a bigger

discourse, in the business world if

293

McDonald's is struggling, and open

about that, the vulnerability that

294

sometimes strategies don't work, I

think it begs the question for us to

295

talk more about why it's not working.

296

And as organizations grow, these

are the challenges you'll face.

297

It prepares us.

298

The business is to come as well, but

like you said, they're on their way back.

299

Jeff Melnyk: That's a beautiful

segue to my second trend, which is

300

very connected in what you said.

301

I had a light bulb moment there, which the

other thing that I really think is going

302

to be a big focus this year, is the notion

of redefining growth on your own terms.

303

When companies turn away from certain

strategies that aren't working for

304

them, we have a lot of companies

who've been in an old blueprint.

305

Of what success looks like we've

been in an era where companies are

306

working with an old blueprint of

what success means coming out of the

307

pandemic where everything's gotten

thrown in the air people are struggling

308

with what growth actually means.

309

What we've found in working

with our clients over the

310

last two years is leaders.

311

Saying, I don't know why I'm

growing this company I don't know

312

what winning looks like anymore.

313

But in that curiosity of, I don't

know, has emerged exciting ways of

314

seeing what growth can look like.

315

I think moving away from those

traditional success metrics.

316

are quite scary for folks, because

especially when things are very

317

quantifiable, math based, and based on a

formula of what growth, has looked like in

318

the past, here comes the darkness, Carol.

319

The darkness of not knowing.

320

If I threw away 30 percent year on

year growth and a 15 percent margin,

321

what would life look like for me?

322

What would that look like?

323

And one thing that I really reflected

on over this last year is, could we

324

throw away the annual cycle of growth?

325

Why does everything have to

be a 12 month growth cycle?

326

Nature doesn't grow

necessarily even in that way.

327

Having a vision of what your

growth of your business could look

328

like is a very exciting place.

329

But what do people need to

let go of to step into that

330

excitement of a whole new world?

331

of growth for them.

332

I

333

Carol Kondo: think personally,

it's the assumption that growth

334

looks the same for everyone.

335

That thinking is detrimental.

336

The fact that growth can be measured by

one single number at the end of the year.

337

When we look at human beings in numbers

it changes the whole project around

338

what does growth really look like.

339

And it's important to explore.

340

Things that are just beyond tangible

stuff, like we sold 10 shoes.

341

But in the process of selling

10 shoes, what was Carol's work

342

experience of selling these shoes?

343

What inspired her to stay a moment longer?

344

What inspired her to inquire about

the rubber soles of our shoes and

345

really find out whether the rubber has

been sustainably sourced, or is there

346

something else that's in the market?

347

What does growth look like that will

inspire an entrepreneurial spirit

348

within the people that work for you?

349

When leaders shift their thinking

to, yes, numbers are important.

350

They'll tell us a story, but beyond

the numbers, what lies there?

351

How else can we measure

more than just the digits

352

Jeff Melnyk: and that's hard, it's hard to

measure some of those intangible things,

353

but it's important businesses have tried

to do that, to be very honest with our

354

audience, We've really struggled as a team

to measure the impact of our work quite

355

often because we want to have a tangible

math based success metric around it,

356

and yet we can feel when we're making a

big difference in our clients lives, and

357

we can ask them, and get that feedback

358

how I turn that into a number becomes

almost a pedantic exercise letting go

359

of having a number could be useful, but

that doesn't mean we don't step towards

360

measuring the things that matter the most.

361

I think that is part of what

becomes important in a vision

362

of success that's different.

363

People still have a notion of how do

I know that I'm moving towards that,

364

but that movement could be in various

ways of seeing what success looks like.

365

One leader I spoke with before

the holidays was like, I think I

366

need to understand that winning

might look differently to me.

367

I have a deep need for winning.

368

He's a, a person who feels that way.

369

I want to win.

370

I'm a sports person.

371

I want that sense of winning,

but maybe winning isn't the same

372

as what I thought 30 years ago.

373

I thought that was the opening.

374

Of seeing things a little bit differently.

375

Carol Kondo: No, definitely.

376

I think what you mentioned there, when

we started around, why does growth

377

have to be measured within 12 months?

378

It's not necessarily true that all growth

will be visible after 12 months and

379

holding that perspective that I might be

able to see fruits 18 months from today.

380

It doesn't mean there

has been no movement.

381

An appreciation of the intangible

and sometimes taking the

382

opportunity to pause and really

sense into ourselves as a system.

383

Did that really not change?

384

And if it didn't, why are

we still in the same place?

385

Yet, attempting to grow

in a particular direction.

386

Jeff Melnyk: All right, two more

trends from us, but Carol, I'm

387

curious what are you seeing ahead?

388

Carol Kondo: For me, I, was very

interested in, the whole conundrum

389

with flexibility and back at work

and how that's impacting connection

390

from the reports we've gathered

there seems to be a point of tension

391

and leaders are really struggling.

392

to manage productivity growth

and their teams because there's

393

a hybrid way of working.

394

There's a flexible way of working.

395

And there has been a lot that has been

said around people staying longer at

396

their workplaces because they want

flexibility and prefer to earn less.

397

But have flexibility.

398

And one of the things that was coming

through was we are not able to monitor

399

or understand how well the team is

doing because there's no connection.

400

People come on Tuesday,

people come on Wednesday.

401

And that brought me to a conversation

I was having with someone.

402

They were saying to me, I prefer staying

at home and having a conversation with

403

my colleague over Skype, working on

the same project, rather than being

404

asked to come to the office and spend a

whole day with people I've never seen,

405

or I see twice a week, and we barely

have an opportunity to talk or even

406

work together around the same tasks.

407

And I think there is a need for leaders

to shift how they believe connection is

408

supposed to look can there be something

beyond the general ways of connection?

409

Does it necessarily mean that if

we sit at the same desk in the same

410

workplace, are we really connected?

411

Are we creating connected cultures?

412

When she said to me, I work on the same

task with my colleague and feel more

413

connected because we are solving together.

414

We are probing the client together.

415

It's so much better than going into a

room full of people I barely speak to.

416

So is there conversation around

what connection would look like in a

417

hybrid space and how that's going to

impact growth, productivity in the

418

team and possibly better performance?

419

Jeff Melnyk: what's coming up for

me when you were talking was the

420

connection around a shared challenge

rather than connections from a physical

421

space of being close to each other.

422

How do we get closer to solving a

problem rather than getting closer

423

physically is an interesting twist on

that because I feel, we've been talking

424

about this for a couple of years.

425

We've been seeing this trend

pull in different directions.

426

Last year it was everybody

get back into the office.

427

This year like, oh actually maybe we don't

want to pay for that office anymore, and

428

we're downsizing, or we're merging, so

we don't know where we're going to be.

429

Leaders need to lean into this,

but it feels like they definitely

430

need to let go of this idea of

proximity equals value creation.

431

But proximity to solving a problem would

be interesting how are we deeper connected

432

around the meaningful work we're doing to

solve a problem, I want to be more IRL.

433

I was very much in my Zoom screen a lot

last year, and the year previous, and the

434

year previous, and the year previous, and

I feel like I want to be more, working

435

around people, our work benefits from

being around people, when we get in

436

the room, a lot of magic happens, we've

been remote and hybrid working forever,

437

so I just feel like we have different

habits, like it's a different connection.

438

At Within, it is just a

different conversation.

439

Our need for connection is, we

hardly get to spend time together as

440

a team, isn't it wonderful to find

that opportunity to get together?

441

But yeah, I, I think It's not

a problem that's going away.

442

It's a trend.

443

It's going to be a trend

for quite some time.

444

When leaders throw their toys out of

the pram and be like, we just all got to

445

get back to the office or, we all just

need to get remote again, not really

446

understanding what they're working with.

447

Carol Kondo: Honestly, when I reflect

about how we work, I think of, Laurie

448

and I work a lot on South Africa together

and we have been doing it for a while.

449

Jeff Melnyk: Laurie being

one of your other partners.

450

What if I'm under,

451

Carol Kondo: I found that when I

see him a year later, which is what

452

usually happens when we read for

within week, which is our strat week.

453

I feel a continuation of

what's been happening online.

454

There's an underestimation of

the impact of working together

455

over a certain project that can

actually translate into real life.

456

So maybe it's not about getting

the whole group together.

457

Let's see where there are points of

connection, some people connect through

458

the work, not over sandwiches or pizza

or whatever else that you might get

459

every Tuesday and Thursday or the forced

lunch, look at the different ways,

460

individuals connect, and rally around

those personalities and how they work.

461

Jeff Melnyk: I agree.

462

And I think that notion of just understand

the rituals that bring people together.

463

Letting go of the pizza lunch as

a ritual of, of being like the

464

deepest form of connection and

what are the ways that we can meet,

465

gather, do our best creative work.

466

That becomes the power, I think,

of understanding the connection

467

around the workplace with work

being at its core it's a juicy one.

468

It ain't going away.

469

We'll see you in January 2026,

when I have a feeling it's

470

gonna still be on the table.

471

Carol Kondo: Definitely deaf.

472

Yeah.

473

Jeff Melnyk: Okay, so we've got

one more trend something you

474

cannot escape our AI future.

475

A recent Gallup study says one third

of businesses are taking action on AI.

476

I can tell you that here at Within

People, every other partner apart

477

from me has been taking action on AI.

478

Carol's already tried to coach me

around it, I don't know what it is.

479

That is not what we'll be

discussing today, but rather,

480

what does it mean for leadership?

481

We're seeing great opportunities

using tech and digital transformation.

482

To make businesses more productive.

483

We're seeing some really cool stuff in

customer service helps people be more

484

connected to guests and customers,

especially in hospitality, we've

485

heard how AI can enable creativity.

486

We've also had a backlash from

the creative industries around how

487

it's robbing the art of creativity.

488

I'm not sure I believe that because

I feel the creative output of humans

489

is much better than the artistic

output of AI in its current form.

490

But I'm most curious on the impact on

leadership and how do we build human

491

centered leadership in an AI future.

492

Carol, what do leaders need to let go of?

493

When it comes to AI,

494

Carol Kondo: think the first

thing is fear, like you, my

495

humble leader, you know, fear,

it is what we need to let go off.

496

No,

497

Jeff Melnyk (2): Talk

about my fear and my AI

498

Jeff Melnyk: future.

499

Carol Kondo: You know, the

fear that, well, everybody

500

has different fears, right?

501

But I think the biggest fear

everyone has with AI is what it will

502

take more than what we will give.

503

And I think that's been.

504

Perception and attitude around, it

will be a giver rather than a taker.

505

Of course, there are metrics and numbers

that speak to, we had a hundred factory

506

workers, now we can only employ 20.

507

That is true.

508

But what would happen if we decided to

change our perspective and say, we've

509

got 80 more people, what can we do and

how can we grow our business in such

510

a way that it can employ 80 people

rather than terminating their contract.

511

When an organization or leaders

explore what the gap has offered it

512

will shift and force us to solve.

513

One of the issues that we struggle with

as well is we don't want to solve, it

514

quickly by termination, whatever else

that we'll bring, we take away from our

515

ability to sit with the problem and think

about something else that would serve us.

516

And not take the easy way out.

517

So if we're going to have AI in the space

and we believe that it's going to give

518

us time to speak to our people have more

one on ones and really get to understand

519

them, if we looked at it and thought,

it's going to help me understand the

520

number of customers and what they drink.

521

Then possibly I'll stock up this

way, and I'm going to assign

522

this to this other person.

523

What are the things that AI is giving

us more than to take away from us?

524

And honestly, I believe connection

and love for each other in the

525

workplace, which is one of our

eight qualities, by the way.

526

Love in the workplace, a genuine desire

to be in the workplace and be happy there.

527

And create opportunities for happiness,

considering the average adult spends

528

most of their life in the workplace.

529

What can we do, knowing AI has given

us an opportunity to spend 10 more

530

minutes understanding what that

person I manage would need to turn

531

that issue around for themselves?

532

Jeff Melnyk: So it feels like

it's not only giving time back

533

to anyone at work, if AI well.

534

But it's actually giving us focus.

535

We can therefore, as leaders, step

into more of the leading elements

536

of our role rather than the doing

elements of our functional tasks.

537

All that admin, all that time spent

looking at insights around our customers

538

that would have taken ages before.

539

we can do with just a murmuring

towards some of our AI tools.

540

We could be using that to be more

focused, more intentional with our

541

teams, building deeper connections.

542

Do we think leaders want to do that?

543

I feel like this is one of leaders

biggest challenges, the recognition that

544

their job is to help grow their people

and foster a better working culture.

545

I feel like they might find they don't

know what their job is now that AI has

546

taken all these wonderful tasks away

547

Carol Kondo: I think if anything,

it's highlighted what their job is

548

because all this time leaders managed.

549

I don't think they led.

550

You know, we come from this era

where we are managing people,

551

but with AI, I think we have an

opportunity to lead from the heart.

552

And if you really look at some of the

things that employees struggle with, you

553

know, Jeff, I really struggled with tech.

554

Still do.

555

Yeah.

556

And one of the things that has really

come through for me has been AI.

557

In learning and facilitating that.

558

And you can imagine what it does

to you when it takes away the fear

559

of something that you cannot do,

because there's something else

560

that could help you with that.

561

And what it had been doing to me

was it was blocking my creativity.

562

Stomping down on my confidence.

563

No matter how many times I was

told, you are welcome here.

564

This is a place you can belong.

565

As long as you're struggling

with it, then those things don't

566

resonate because you feel like.

567

I'm not supposed to be here

because I don't meet the standard.

568

If AI can come in and really assist

in that particular thing and create

569

the image of the thing that I want, it

allows me to amplify the work that I do.

570

the quality of my experience within

the organization automatically shifts.

571

So it boils down to the growth thing

we were talking about What does

572

growth look like for the individual?

573

What does growth look

like in the business?

574

If AI can support me.

575

To grow within the business, then what

I produce for our business in terms of

576

the work that I do and the quality of the

work that I do is instantly increased.

577

Leaders should explore what exists

in the AI space in ways that

578

help and facilitate the growth

and development of their people.

579

Jeff Melnyk: I love that.

580

And I love a leader.

581

You've been saying to a team member.

582

Hey, how are you using

these new tools now?

583

I want you focused on the thing

that's driving your passion or

584

building your professional growth

and less of you doing the things that

585

are taking up your time and taking

away from you doing your best work.

586

If a leader could help a team member

see that those tools are available

587

to them, they're, stepping into the

human centered side of leadership.

588

Can you ask ChatGPT to tell you what

is the tool and the thing that's

589

going to be most helpful for you?

590

Isn't that meta?

591

It's like asking the robot how the

robot could help you even more.

592

One of my friends did ask ChatGPT

if he, if ChatGPT thought, you know,

593

that he was the best user of chat GPT.

594

So he wanted feedback on his

own chat GPT use, which I

595

thought was hilarious and meta.

596

My fear stems from the robot actually

beginning to take more human qualities.

597

I've seen way too much sci fi.

598

I thought that was quite a remarkable

thing for my friend to be stepping

599

into, but thank you, Carol.

600

For saying what you said about

how AI has been helping you do the

601

things that, that may have, may have

been causing you some, some pain.

602

Some stress in your own workspace, cause

I didn't understand that as much for you.

603

I'm really happy you're using these

new tools to step into your joy.

604

Carol Kondo: No, definitely.

605

Jeff, we are all on individual

growth journeys in business.

606

It's so important to understand

what growth for the other

607

person looks like as a leader.

608

I appreciate what AI brings but more than

anything it has unlocked, the opportunity

609

to bring your own thinking, if you feed

in the right prompts, it's not just

610

giving you something on a silver platter.

611

think about what you're inputting

to get the right response.

612

Otherwise, you'll input 10 Or 15 times.

613

that does not take away from

your creativity or thinking.

614

It deepens it because you've got to ask,

you know, it's like, in Jensie Klein,

615

the book, the thinking environment, you

have to find the incisive question, that

616

will shift the response from the AI.

617

Whatever it might be the robot.

618

So that thinking, you want quality

thinking to get a quality response.

619

So that means you keep working.

620

So we don't stop working because

there's AI, that has clarity.

621

Otherwise we're working for nothing.

622

I love that it keeps me on my toes if I

don't, I'll spend the whole day there.

623

That's not the point of

having AI to assist us.

624

Jeff Melnyk: Very good.

625

All right.

626

Well, we're almost at a time.

627

So I'm just curious to, to wrap

us up here about practically can

628

leaders do within all these trends?

629

I think we've, we've, we've looked

at some tips and tricks around these

630

four different themes and trends.

631

We had bringing cultures together and

how, The sort of stepping into the DEI

632

strategies and, and, and connection that

you want to deepen within, within your

633

culture and alongside that, redefining

growth and being able to step towards new

634

ways of seeing growth and even measuring

success that is more meaningful for you.

635

We had the very real and omnipresent

flexible and remote working trend of

636

connecting around the work that we do

rather than the environment that we're in.

637

And we had our AI future and

stepping towards a much more human

638

centered way of leading as well

as stepping towards possibly.

639

Some of the fear of using said tools.

640

Thank you for that coaching today, Carol.

641

But what, out of all of that,

what do leaders most need to do?

642

There's quite a varying

range of trends there.

643

What's some tips and tactics for

644

Carol Kondo: So I would say

to them, firstly, don't stop

645

doing what you're doing.

646

Don't run away.

647

Don't give up when things are not working.

648

If anything, stay in there.

649

Sit with the discomfort

and invite curiosity in.

650

That will allow you to move

in a different direction.

651

Number two, face your fear.

652

What are you assuming about

yourself if you use AI?

653

What do you assume would happen to you?

654

What do you assume would

happen to the business?

655

Really examine those assumptions.

656

They might be limiting you.

657

With our growth, really sitting down

and understanding that growth is not

658

always numbers, but inquiring what growth

could look like for your team members.

659

If you have 27, 000 people, that might

not be easy to do with all 27, 000.

660

But you can ask departmental

leaders find out what growth

661

looks like in an organization.

662

It's quite important, take advantage of

what is offered at the present moment

663

challenge your thinking, around trends

664

what has shifted within me from last year?

665

Don't take more on, rather let go of

something and see what you're letting go

666

of within your given places of intention.

667

Because when you let go of something,

you create space for something else.

668

So let's create space for growth and

love and leading our teams in this

669

Jeff Melnyk (2): year 2025.

670

Jeff Melnyk: Well said.

671

Carol, thank you so much.

672

This is my favorite podcast to do.

673

I love being in conversation with you.

674

I especially love that I get to

see you, next week in London.

675

So looking forward to that.

676

And thank you so much to our listeners

for tuning in to this podcast and always.

677

To our podcast here at

Reimagining Work from Within.

678

We have some great guests

lined up for this year who are

679

changing the way work works.

680

We have some great guests lined up this

year who are changing the way work works

681

and leading growth in exciting ways.

682

We're really excited to share their

stories and hope you can learn from

683

their experience and perspectives.

684

So we'll see you back

here in a few weeks time.

685

Reimagining work from within is available

wherever you listen to podcasts.