It's time to delve into the fascinating and often maddening topics of ambition shaming, gender bias, tall poppy syndrome, and the challenges faced in promoting equity and inclusion in both male and female-dominated industries.

Meet today's guest, Lisa Mulligan, who brings a wealth of experience and a global perspective working in the UK, Australia, Singapore, and New Zealand. Lisa is the founder of The Culture Ministry and host of the "A Dog Called Diversity" podcast.

In this episode, you will:

• Learn more about the hurdles faced by women in male-centric business sectors.
• Examine the effectiveness of diversity and inclusion endeavors in workplaces.
• Understand the far-reaching impact of the pandemic on diversity initiatives.
• Recognize obstacles groups encounter when rejoining the workforce 
• Identify the significance of diversity and inclusive environments in organizations.

So What is Tall Poppy Syndrome, exactly?

Tall Poppy Syndrome is a pervasive cultural phenomenon where ambitious individuals are targeted and their successes are belittled due to resentment, envy, or fear. Women, especially those who are highly ambitious and driven, are often victims of this syndrome. Addressing this issue is important for achieving true equality and balance in the workforce. In this interview, Lisa & I discuss ambition envy and the role that privilege plays in undermining the achievements and potential of capable women.

Mic Drop Moment: 

"If we don't have people that are ambitious, if we don't have people that see things differently if we don't have people that stand out instead of fitting in, where's the progress supposed to come from?" Diann Wingert

If this interview inspires you the way we hope it will, here are some next steps:

• Check out Lisa Mulligan's website: https://www.thecultureministry.com/
• Listen to Lisa’s Podcast: https://www.thecultureministry.com/a-dog-call-diversity-podcast 
• Consider attending a diversity and inclusion training or workshop
• If you are a business owner, commit to diversity and inclusion within your organization
• Support organizations and initiatives that promote diversity and inclusion,
• Educate yourself and have open and honest conversations about these topics
• Read this article about the impact of Tall Poppy Syndrome on women in the workplace: https://bit.ly/42K3bQk

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Also mentioned in this episode, is one of my most recommended books for ambitious women, The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks: https://amzn.to/3BcPldh

H: So let's start from the top, did you intentionally decide to get employed in male dominated industries or did that just sort of happen.

G: It sort of happened and I'm always not sure how it happened, I think partly my upbringing. I grew up on a dairy farm and then when I was in my teenage years, my parents had a hardware store, so I was, I guess always around things that were probably more male dominated and so I learned how to negotiate those environments. I think they suited my personality and how I interact with people and how I engage with people and yeah, it just, I guess it happened that way. And when I applied for the jobs that suited my background and personality, then yeah, people thought I was a good fit. And then, as you probably know, once you've done a couple of jobs in a particular industry you end up doing other jobs in similar kind of industries because people think you understand them so I think that's how I ended up there.

H: You know, working on a dairy farm as a kid and then working in a hardware store. I mean, in addition to being places where you're gonna see a lot more men than women, there was also a lot of focus on very task-oriented things and making things happen. And I think that really, really suited you well and has probably helped you become a very solution focused person who just wants to get the job done. I think a lot of women don't have that advantage based on the way that most females are raised and they have to learn it later, which is not as easy as when you learn it growing up I think.

G: Yeah, definitely very, that's where you oriented growing up. I think task going like you've you know, on a dairy farm, you have to get up and milk the cows and you have to repair the fences, and you have to make sure the animals are okay, and then you have to milk the cows again like you, you can't not do that. And it's the same owning a retail store that, you know, if you say you're gonna be open at 8:30, you will be open at 8:30 it doesn't matter what's going on, you'll be open. And it's been interesting more recently living in New Zealand that some of the shop owners will just decide to close for the day or over the summer holidays, they'll just close cuz they want a holiday too. And I find that very hard to deal with because it's not how I grew up, and it's not how I look at the world that you've gotta get up and get on with things.

H: I would agree that that's not the way I grew up either and certainly is a huge inconvenience to potential customers. When we had our pre-chat to make the decision to record this interview together, I posed a question to you based on a previous podcast interview I did where I was talking about how difficult it is to especially be a driven woman, to be an ambitious woman, to be a woman who wants to make things happen and is going to move mountains to the best of her ability to make it happen and how that is often frowned upon both by men and surprisingly by other women. Now, there's a lot of different names for this, but I was particularly attracted to what this phenomenon is called in Australia, and that is the tall poppy syndrome. So I don't wanna put words in your mouth, let's talk about what the tall poppy syndrome is and how old were you when you first became aware of this?

G: That's a really tough question actually, because I think growing up in Australia, and there's probably a few other countries where the tall poppy syndrome exists, certainly not the US. But growing up in Australia, Australia's a very I guess equal society. And there's a real sense of fairness in Australia, like, you know, Australia is about having a fair go and being given a fair go, and, but also not getting above yourself and not thinking you're more important than anyone else, and kind of keeping a lid on your ambitions and things like that. And in the workplace, the way that plays out is that the hierarchy that exists in workplaces is very flat, often in Australian organizations because we feel like, well, I could be an entry level graduate, but I'm as important as the CEO and I should be able to go talk to that CEO.

So there are some advantages in having that kind of culture. Like if you get in a taxi or an Uber, Australians will normally sit in front in the front seat with the driver because you don't wanna feel like you're more special than the driver, you don't sit in the back seat. It's an interesting part of society, but what it means is if you are trying to be better, if you're trying to get ahead, if you're trying to make something of yourself, the people will try and keep you down. They'll can't kind of bring you back to size and the tall poppy syndrome is about if you pop your head up above everyone else, we're gonna cut the stem and take you down and sometimes that happens in subtle ways. So an example I've experienced when I left the corporate world to start my own business and I was doing lots of posting on social media to support my business and I had a friend say to me, oh, I'm seeing all your social media, Lisa. But it was like, uh, oh, I don't like it, it's too much and so really subtle things.

And another time when I moved to the UK. I moved my whole family to the UK so my husband and kids and my mum and dad came, they'd retired. They came to live with us to help us look after the kids and it was a period of economic downturn again. And I'd moved there and two months in my job was made redundant and my mother said to me, I think you are aiming too high. You are aiming too high. So that stuff happens and that's a great example of the tall poppy syndrome. We see it big time in the media in Australia that people will just, I guess the term now is cancel you. That if you put your head up, and especially if you've done something perceived as wrong, then the media will take you down.

H: This is such a fascinating phenomenon to me because at least here in the US, Lisa, at least here, we historically, we've had a lot of gatekeepers right. We've had gatekeeper anyone in the for example creative arts, there were casting agents, there were publishing agents. So if you wanted to write a book, if you wanted to pitch a screenplay, if you wanted to act, you wanted to sing, you wanted to whatever, any of the creative arts, there were always gatekeepers. And one of the things that's been so fascinating that has led to so many people in the last decade starting their businesses and promoting their work on social media and other of places online is because the gatekeepers have now left the building because every one of us who has a smartphone essentially has a media company in our pocket, and all we have to do is learn how to use it.

But what's so interesting to me about what you're saying is that if we level the playing field so that everyone can get on the field, to tell them, okay, you're on the field, be happy. You have to stay on the field. You can't run, you can't win. You can't do a victory dance. You can't run up into the bleachers and hug your family. You got on the field, everybody else is on the field and you need to stay kind of right in the middle of the pack so that everyone can feel okay about sharing the field. Well, I think it kind of flies in the face of human nature, don't you think?

G: Yes, of course it does and I think a lot of Australians love coming to the US because it's a complete flip. It's the confidence that people have that you can do whatever you want. Like this is the land of opportunity and you can give anything a go and people don't take you down in the US generally, from what I can see. But this Australian thing, and I don't know if it's come from the history of how Australian started Australia was colonized I guess a lot of convicts that came from the UK. Maybe to survive everyone just had to get on and work together and not be more important than someone else. But it has endured and it is part of the culture and it's, yeah, I think it must be fascinating for other people to, especially from the US where it's the opposite.

H: Well, we may not be as far apart as you might think, Lisa. What I'm noticing, one of the things that is really fascinating to me is what I call ambition shaming. On the one hand, yes, this is the land of opportunity and yes, we do at least allegedly want people to take chances and to succeed and we do love a good underdog story. We've got many books and movies and you know, we have The Voice and America's Got Talent and you know, the idea that you can be an absolute nobody, you can be an absolute, any man, every woman, and gave your shot and you could go viral overnight. You could become a big star, that has been part of the American culture for many, many years. However, if you do take that shot and right place, right time, you got enough talent, enough pluck, enough luck, enough support, enough funding, and you actually make it.

I think what's interesting is that oftentimes people not only won't applaud you, they will very directly try to interfere with you, obstruct you, and lots of times these attacks come from the people that are closest to you. In your case, you're saying your mom thought the reason why you got laid off is because you reached too high. My mom was at my college graduation the day I got my master's degree. I didn't even think she was there. I didn't see her and then I saw her way in the back with her arms folded across her chest and when I walked up to her, I said, you're here. She says, well, now it's official.

Now you really are smarter than the rest of us and she turned and walked away and I thought, okay, yes, there's dysfunctional family dynamics here. However, it was also this ambition shaming and this ambition envy, and I think you know, every organization, every culture that evolves, that expands, that progresses. There's always someone who is an outlier who initiates that. So if we don't have people that are ambitious, if we don't have people that see things differently, if we don't have people that stand out instead of fitting in, where's the progress supposed to come from and why do we hate on those people so much? It seems, yeah, I don't know it's like I understand it, but I don't.

G: Yeah, it’s like a jealousy, isn't it? It's so interesting so for your mom, I mean, she might have never had the opportunity to go to university or do a master's. I don't know but is it a jealousy that drives that and it's a weird emotion.

H: It's a fascinating emotion, it is and I think, are you familiar with the book, the Big Leap? I talk about it all the time with the concept of upper limit issues.

G: No, I have to get this book.

H: Okay. You're gonna love this. Upper limit issues it's the concept is from the book, the Big Leap. The writer is Dr. Gay Hendricks and he says, basically, all of us, all humans, you, me, anybody, everybody has these limiting beliefs that we use to kind of hold ourselves back and it's like we are doing the tall poppy chop off to ourselves, right? So here they are number one, all of us believe we are fundamentally flawed. All of us believe if we let ourselves shine, it makes other people feel bad. We think if we are a big deal, we are a bigger burden to those around us. And if we succeed beyond our roots that we are being disloyal and just hearing those on face value and we're gonna move on and not, we've got so many other juicy things to talk about. It really, I see this so often in the behavior of people who should want to help others move forward but don't. And how we obstruct ourselves because it somehow feels like we're being selfish, we’re trying to take more than our share and we’re gonna be shut down.

G: Those things really resonate that reason. Wow. Wow.

H: Yep. Yep. Now, when it comes to organizations, now, whether you are in the UK, you're in Australia, you're in Singapore, you're in New Zealand, you're in Europe, you're in Asia, or you're here in the US, we are all becoming increasingly familiar with diversity, equity and inclusion programs, and in many cases mandates. Now I don't wanna get you in trouble but you are self-employed, so you're only gonna get in trouble with yourself depending on how you answer this. But in your experience, do you believe that most organizations genuinely care about diversity or do you think most organizations feel that it's a mandate that they just have to keep in line with?

G: Yeah, it's hard, right? I think there's definitely a spectrum. I think we've got organizations who are just continuing to do what they do and they haven't even thought about diversity and inclusion and why would we, we've got a successful business. This is just woke bullshit, hopefully I can swear.

H: Oh yeah, absolutely. I encourage it as a matter of fact.

G: And we have great organizations that genuinely do care and are doing good work. And then there's a whole sway in the middle and I think we are going to see a divide in organizations. We're gonna see some move in one direction and get really good at this work and make really good progress and really understand the business case for doing this work. And then I think those in the middle that are kind of saying, yeah, it's important, but are not really doing anything to make any changes, I think will see them go a different path and not be as successful not be able to attract the talent that they want. Maybe not survive into the future, but often, you know, organizations are led by people and it's the leaders in organizations. If they don't care, if they're not on board, then I think often there's not a lot of hope. Gotta work out how to get them on board.

H: Yep, I would tend to agree and do you think it's I mean, in my experience, oftentimes someone needs to have a personal experience. Like we have individuals in my family who have psychiatric disabilities. We have individuals in my family who have physical disabilities and I know that you share this as well, and I think sometimes people don't really realize the importance of access and inclusion until it hits closer to home, and this is what we are now referring to as privilege in so many ways. If you are a member of the primary group, you’re not going to recognize your privilege. You are going to come from a bias that as long as your needs are met and the people who look like you have their needs met that where is there a problem, why are we looking for problems that don't exist completely. Right, it totally makes sense but you've been doing this work for a while, what do you think the typical experience is of organizations and how they start to move in this direction. How do they start to realize this is actually something they not only need to explore for their reputation, for their financial feasibility, but for the fact that it's the right thing to do and it will benefit them. How did they figure that out?

G: I think when I started doing this work the business case was really important and I can remember writing a board paper that went to the board, which was all about the business case of why we should be diverse and inclusive, and the paper went to the board…

H: And that includes what, in case people are not familiar, what would that include?

G: It could mean a whole range of things, often in organizations they'll come up with, oh, diversity of thought or are you asking about the business case?

H: Yeah, specifically the business case, if that's where we're starting. If most businesses in their self-interest are going to say, well, we need to get behind this because it's good for business what's the evidence that that is done?

G: So, there's so much research from very reputable companies that shows if you are a diverse and an inclusive organization, you are likely to have higher revenues. You are likely to have higher percentages of profit, say than your competitors. You will be able to access wider markets because if you've got a diverse employee base, you're gonna be able to service wider markets. You are able to access innovation because if you have lots of different people with lots of different experiences trying to solve problems, then you are gonna get better innovation. So like, I guess they're the four, I think there were four main things there. So just on that alone I mean, every business meeting I've sat in, we're always trying to get more revenue. We're always trying to get more profit, more margin. We're always trying to come up with the best idea to get into market before our competitors.

So like what organization wouldn't want that right? But I think that was taking some time in some organizations to really hit and that example of the board paper I wrote, I had referenced all the different pieces of research and they actually came back and wanted the actual links to the articles and the research for them to read themselves so it was all about the business case. I think the shift to moving to it's the right thing to do came when George Floyd was killed and that was such a pivotal moment in many organizations and not just in the US, outside of the US as well. And when I think about how many black people have been killed at the hands of police in the US, I mean, it's astounding and shameful. But that one in particular, whether it was the graphic nature of the killing, whether it was broadcast globally, I'm not sure what it was about that, but that switched in the organizations I was working for, from going, actually this is not right and what can we do in our organization? Are we doing anything in the US to support our black employees, oh look, no, we're not.

Do we even have enough employ black employees in our business in the US? No, we don't. What's going on there but then it had a ripple effect more broadly. Well, if our black employees in the US don't feel included and are struggling well, what about our LGBTQ + community? How are they feeling about working here? What about our women, they should make up 50% of the population, but in our organization they don't. What's going on there? What about people with disabilities or caring responsibilities, how are those people faring in our organization? So, that had a big knock on effect and then of course we had Covid, so we went into the, I guess, biggest mental health experiment or disaster. I don't know which to say but…

H: Either one would work.

G: Yeah so all of a sudden people who generally privileged in the majority group, you know, confident doing their job, nothing's wrong with me, I don't need to worry about anyone else. All of a sudden they had something, they had mental health struggles and maybe started to realize that actually I'm not great. Maybe other people aren't great and so I think we built some empathy during that time. I'm a little bit worried we're sliding backwards, but I think it did move us in a really good direction and hopefully we can keep that momentum up to an extent.

H: I think you are making a lot of sense and when we think about the different waves of Covid that we've experienced and just the ongoing nature of the pandemic, you know, the first wave, everybody is just in shock and fearing for their survival. And the second wave, we started worrying about how long is this gonna continue and how far is it gonna spread and how are our lives gonna change. And then it just continued and continued and continued and continued and, I think we do have an unprecedented mental health crisis, and I do think, at least initially there has been an expansion of empathy. But I would agree with you, Lisa that we seem to be regressing in that I mean, at least based on a lot of what I see on the news and also on TikTok is the social courtesies, the social graces, the social skills, the social communication and connection seems to be rapidly declining, and I see that as evidence of the fact that a huge percentage of humanity is not doing very well emotionally, mentally, perhaps financially. They're just not feeling very safe and secure, which means potentially, yes everyone is a threat and that is a very dangerous situation.

G: Yeah, I don’t think I've had anyone explain that as well as you just did, explain what we are seeing in social media as a reaction to our world was turned upside down. I dunno how to cope, so I'm gonna lash out. Yeah, wow.

H: Well, I think in order to, if we just think about what is required in organizations to do the hard work of being inclusive, because I do want to acknowledge the fact that it is hard work. It is hard work for people who come from marginalized groups who have been fighting to be acknowledged and included and considered for as long as they've been alive. And then the other groups that are somewhere between, why did we never notice this before too, I'd like things to go back to the good old days and there's a lot of turmoil, there's a lot of disruption. One of the groups that I happen to be a part of is the neuro divergent. And these folks are now talking an awful lot about, you know individuals with ADHD like myself or individuals who on the autism spectrum.

A lot of people are both, they had a really hard time going home and working from home initially but once they got used to it, now it's like, well. As a matter of fact, I mean it's a genuine struggle to create the systems and the structure and all of that at home for yourself, because most of us, frankly rely on getting that in the workplace, I know I always did. So it is a huge adjustment to be able to provide those systems and those structures as rituals and routines for yourself from home. But once you have those things in place, it's a hard sell to get people to go back to the office and one of the groups of people that's really, really struggling with going back are people with mental health challenges. And as you also mentioned, individuals with care giving responsibilities.

G: Yes, I've had a number of neuro divergent people on my podcast and many express that Covid lockdown period as like just this awakening of this is how I need to work and I am so comfortable here and this is how I need to be and I'm like, why do organizations wanna wreck that? Like certainly have some days where you bring together teams to work together and get the innovation and but I don't understand the whole, you all must come back to work. So all the people who worked their butts off during Covid in hard circumstances in their homes where they may not have had a proper desk or a proper chair or been comfortable, but worked really hard for the company to ensure they got through that period to then turn around and say, actually, we don't trust you, so please come back to the office like, what kinda crap is that?

H: Maybe not even, please, maybe not even please just come, come back, come back, or you're gonna lose your position. Do you think it's different from what you've seen in male dominated industries versus female dominated industries in terms of the uptake of the understanding and the practices of bringing everybody to, to the table?

G: I mean, the last organization I worked for was incredibly dispersed and very flexible, and certainly we're not mandating people come back to the office, so that was great. But what I've noticed, and we are seeing research on this as well, and I see it in my own husband, is that the men do wanna get back to the office. They wanna get back, they wanna get dressed, they wanna leave the house because they get interrupted.

H: That's where all the messes are.

G: Yeah. I'm gonna go to the office the mess at home and I'm gonna go and do my important job and then I'll come home to the family when I'm ready kind of a thing. My husband does this and I'm like, you are doing your team a disservice by you going in every day. You are saying to your team that they need to come in every day, it's not being mandated. But you are saying that and he goes, I know, but I just need to be in the office to see people face to face and I'm like, no, you don't. We've just run a two year experiment, you don't, of course no you don't. It's preferable but if you think about the trying the culture you are trying to create as a team and in your organization, you're doing a disservice by going in every day. And like we have set up at home, so yeah I do think men wanna be back in the office and they don't wanna be at home having to maybe put the washing on like the women do and they don't wanna be thinking about the dinner. Like, you know, I'm thinking, like today I'm thinking, okay, where is a gap that I'm gonna think about what we have for dinner and then maybe get it out of the freezer or go to the supermarket. None of that cuz I'm at the office and doing my job.

H: Okay, you keep going, listen, you ripped the lid off of this honey, so we gonna get into it. Because think about it, we start off talking about organizations and how can they be more inclusive. We got into the Covid pandemic and without having that be an intention, a global phenomenon, leveled the playing field, and unless you were an essential worker, you went home and you had to figure it out. The moms went home, the dads went home, the kids went home, everybody went home. Nobody was set up to work from home except for the very few of us that were already doing it, and we had to figure it out as a survival mechanism. And once we did, and it was not easy and it was not fun, and a lot of people suffered and continue to suffer. But after this amount of time many people have adjusted, many people have developed some resourcefulness and resiliency and coping better teamwork, better co-parenting.

But now the men in your experience are wanting to escape back to the workplace, mainly because they have been introduced in numbers to the role strain that women have always lived with, and if only there were more women in the boardrooms and stakeholders and making those decisions, then more men would be aware that that's what actually is required to have a family. And a wife that doesn't hate you that much and this is how we can practice equity and inclusion in our very families e which would then translate into the workplace. I'd have to believe in my idealistic mind. It's the separation. It's the separation. This group of people is excluded and this group of people has rights and privileges that don't have to take other people's needs, wishes, wants, preferences and priorities into consideration.

You're absolutely right, it has been a global experiment so I have a question for you. I work with women who have left organizations predominantly and started their own business. Many of them got pushed out, many of them opted out because they had caregiving responsibilities and the role strain was insurmountable. Some of them aged out because they were in youth oriented industries and they were not getting work anymore, so they figured it out and they are now running businesses on their own. Now I see the rise of female entrepreneurship at least in part being related to the fact that workplaces for women are not hospitable. Would you agree or disagree and what do you see in the countries that you have lived in which respect to this trend.

G: Yeah, I would agree to this trend, I think workplaces generally are inhospitable to women. I think that's a good way to put it but it's not just about the organizations that create that. But I think when women have families that's when it becomes a challenge. And I can remember I was doing my master's when I was pregnant with my second child and one of the lecturers was very pro-women and was doing lots of research. And in Australia at the time, she was advocating with the government to introduce paid parental leave because Australia didn't have that up until then. So that was probably 10 or 11 years ago and she was successful as part of this group advocating to get paid parental leave. But I remember her saying at the time, a lot of her research had been around, you know, women can often cope in organizations with one baby. So one baby is okay and everyone can cope, and that's all right.

But the tipping point came when you had the second, and that's when the domestic workload started to become too much, and that on top of the organizational workload with no flexibility, no give was of often where the problems started. And I think organizations have a big role to play in supporting women during that period but also how do we get men to do stuff more in the house? And you know, I often wonder if you are in a lesbian relationship, two women parents, how amazing that must be to have two women who get it, who might be both working outside the home and are working inside the home. And you know how, how I think, gee, that must be amazing. I'm sure it's not necessarily, and that's possibly a stereotype on my part, but I think there does become a point where it co becomes untenable for many women to not stay in the workforce. It's just too hard.

H: You have two kids, right?

G: Yeah, I do.

H: Do you think the tipping point is that a felt experience for you? That one was manageable and two, because you're now self-employed and so am I. Y

G: You know, my husband, despite me complaining about him going into the office every day…

H: Oh, he's not gonna listen to this podcast, Lisa, don't worry about it.

G: No, he won't. He won't. He's actually generally really good and does his fair share and so when the boys were really little, like it just had to be equal. So we were equal parents and I would do dropoffs at childcare and he would do pickups, often I traveled and he was left with two little kids by himself having to cope. We were privileged enough to be able to afford a cleaner so that helped. We didn't really have family around, but we had friends who would help out so he was really good when they were little. But also I was so determined to stay in the workforce, and I have learnt that I can deal with a lot more workload than perhaps a lot of other women.

H: Listen, you were up at 4:00 AM milk in the damn cows okay. You know how to work hard.

G: And you know that's not putting down other women. I just think I've learned long, hard days work so I think, yeah, be tougher and I can deal with a bit more. So when the boys were little it was okay and I worked really hard to stay in the workforce because I passionately believe women should not give up their ability to earn money. I know it's very hard for women if you've got children and a job, and I get that it's hard, but I just think hold on for dear life to be able to earn your own money. And then when the kids were kind of two and a half, five, we moved to Singapore and we had live in help. Life changing. Life changing. Someone to get the children up in the morning and feed them their breakfast and get them dressed and take them to school and then clean the house and then do the grocery shopping, and then cook the dinner and wash the clothes, like brilliant.

So for nearly eight years we had that in a period where it's really hard work with kids and if you're working full-time, man, maybe I wouldn't have survived. And now we've moved to a country where we don't have that domestic help, but they're older, they're 11 and 14, and the level and work is not the same as it used to be when they were little so and I've always taken flexibility. So where organizations haven't offered it and weren't, you know, clear about it, I took it. I would just say, this is what I'm doing, and go do it.

H: It's definitely helped that you are aware that you have options and that you didn't wait to be given permission. I think it's one of the things I've noticed one of the biggest differences about women versus men in terms of being successful, running a business, finding their way in the world, is that by and large women are culturally conditioned to seek permission and men in general just take what they think they need. And may not be so much in Australia, but definitely as I have been raised in the US.

G: Same.

H: Yeah, the same and it really makes me wonder, Lisa, as we're wrapping up this conversation, it makes me really wonder with all the mandates in our respective countries, with all the brilliant work that's being done by diversity, equity, and inclusion consultants and also internal positions in large corporations, in academia and nonprofits and so forth, how much can we truly expect culture to change so that everyone is seen, acknowledged, heard, respected, and included when the decisions are still being made largely by the group of people who benefits from things not changing even all the way down to being at home you know. And this is not a political show, this is not a feminist show however, it's like, yeah, change starts from the top and the bottom. I think it starts at home in individual families and relationships and at the top of organizations and companies and political parties that the change really has to come from both ends. And we can't get complacent because even if you're only talking about women, and I say only we're half of humanity.

G: And we can't even get it right for half the population.

H: I'd like to think it was easy, but there's a lot of things at stake and when you think about all the intersectionalities with gender, sexual orientation, disability, immigration status, race, culture, there's a lot of intersectionalities that do tend to make things seem more complicated, but fairness, fairness is actually a very similar, so true concept.

G: It’s so true.

H: What do you think we are going to be seeing next couple of years, do you have any predictions?

G: I think we'll continue to see progress being made in pockets and I think in the last couple of years we've seen that we're just sort of little pockets of hope, I guess. So, in Japan recently they changed a law around same sex relationships so that families could get some extra help. In New Zealand where I live, they finally passed a law that conversion therapy was illegal. In one of the states in Australia, for the first time ever, they had an election, and half of the ministers in the new government are women like that's never happened before. And so we are seeing these little pockets so I think we are gonna continue to see that these just, but I'm wondering how far we're gonna slide back as well. So when I see some of the laws changing I just saw overnight on TikTok, which I don't know how reliable is that is, but the abortion pill a federal judge in the US expand it.

H: I saw that too.

G: So a drug that's been available for over 20 years to allow me women early pregnancy abortions safely. And so I think we're gonna still have this tug of war for a bit longer. I would call that some steps forward in pockets and then some steps backwards as well. So, yeah but hopefully all moving right.

H: Well, it's encouraging for me to know that there are people like you out there who are fighting the good fight, who are holding up their end of the banner. And to that end, will you tell our listeners how they can get some more of you? Let's hear about your podcast, your website, and I believe you have a newsletter that they sign up for that will keep them up to date. Let's hear all of that.

G: Thank you so much Diann, so my business is the culture ministry, which is www.thecultureministry.com. I work with organizations and individuals to, well with organizations. I help them on their DNI journey, and in particular, I like working with organizations that are at the start of their diversity and inclusion journey. So, what are those first things you wanna do? What are those first building blocks you put in place when you're starting to do some work in big organizations? I also love working with diversity and inclusion practitioners. They're a really tough job, and I like working with people who are new in that space and helping them develop and helping them understand how to navigate organizations to actually help make progress.

As you mentioned, I do have my own podcast, i's called A Dog Called Diversity. Yes, it's a cute name I get asked all the time about it. And I started that podcast because I wanted to learn about other people's lived experiences and their challenges in the world. So I interview all sorts of people including Diann, I'm looking forward to having you on the podcast. And you can find that on Apples, Spotify, and Buzzsprout, and I release episodes every single week, which I love. And I do have a newsletter and if you find me on LinkedIn, that is one way to find the newsletter and yeah, I usually post every week on that one as well. But yeah, over Easter I've had a few challenges, so I've lost a week but anyway, it happens.

H: That's all right. So will they look you up on LinkedIn at Lisa Mulligan or at The Culture Ministry or both.

G: Both, follow me on both.

H: Excellent. Well, we are definitely going to stay in contact, I knew this conversation was going to be fascinating and it most certainly was. So thank you my friend, for being here.

G: Thanks Diann.