About this episode:

John & Kristen discuss Gabe Fazio & Brandy Hotchner

Some things that came up for John & Kristen:

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Credits:

• All content Copyright ActuallyQuiteNice, Inc & TCOM Studios, 2022-2024
• Cover art by @jacksonfall
• Music by Ray Wyssman, The Simoleons, and Kristen Cerelli

Kristen Cerelli 0:04

Joining me in the studio today is Dr. John Lyons and we're here to talk about my interview with those two crazy method actors Gabe Fazio and brandy Hotchner. I know them really well. I'm dying to know what you made of this episode.

John Lyons 0:20

It sounded to me like you had some fun, Kristen, or should I call us? Or should I call you, Cerelli?

Kristen Cerelli 0:27

It's Cerelli. Yes, I did have some fun.

John Lyons 0:32

Yeah, sounds like it's those. So I thought I was fascinated, actually. Because, I mean, my secret of aspiration is I always sort of wanted to be an actor at some point in my life. So it was sort of interesting day to hear them talk about the work. And it also was useful for me to realize, actually, I made a good career choice. So it sounds you know, I mean, it's, that was impressive. I was quite fascinated. But I was also fascinated by what Gabe was talking about, actually, both Gabe and Brandi, were talking a little bit about the misunderstanding of method acting in popular culture. So

Kristen Cerelli 1:09

yeah, I wasn't sure. Really what to expect, because even though we've known each other for so long, we haven't sat down to talk about the method or acting or life in that way. So it was it was fascinating for me to and I think it's interesting that you say that you had aspirations to be an actor, because actually, you do find that actors have very similar personality profiles to both attorneys, trial lawyers, litigators, interesting. And a lot of actors, leave acting and go into mental health go into becoming therapists, which I think has something to do with the fact that we study psychology and that we're good listeners. And so I know, actually, two or three of my own friends have left the business and gone gone that direction. So that's just an interesting, where do you want to start

John Lyons 2:05

today's live six observations from this, I seem to be stabilizing the number. Although I do think that notion of therapy or helping in general as acting is an interesting one, because you have to be compassionate, and you have to care. But you can't really completely care, because you can't take on that much pain. So you have to give off the appearance of caring without internalizing the actual caring. And so I think that as an acting skill, actually, so I've always wondered about that. Anyway, so but the the so I have six things that I really wanted to chat about. And maybe we can circle back to this that last point. Okay, at some point. So the first one is, which I thought was very useful, because I do think that anytime somebody does something easy, that looks easy, that people think it is easy. Yeah. And so they both highlighted how much you have to practice and how much you have to have an approach. And I think that's a universal truth, that if you want to do anything, well, you have to practice and you have to have an approach to it. I think that's one of the things I think we've heard as a theme that people in this sequence who have talked about, you know, making fairly permanent changes, it's not something that they just would wing it, they actually would practice it, learn it. And, you know, it reminded me a little bit of the, you know, the 10,000 hour rule kind of thing, but you do have to put in the time, you do have to put in the effort. But you also need an approach. So it's not just making it up, you have an approach. So I think that's really important for those of us who are in the helping professions is that you have to practice helping, just like you have to practice everything else. And you have to have an approach. And so I think that's was a really important takeaway. I think it's a universal truth.

Kristen Cerelli 4:12

That's great. It it does remind me though, at least for actors in the actors process, and I think you could read between the lines with what we were talking about. Sometimes the approach you've studied doesn't work. And you need another approach, you need to change your approach, or you need to have a lot of tools in your tool toolkit. And that I think, goes into the 10,000 hours as well.

John Lyons 4:34

Yes, oh, that's actually a really important point. And you did it was sort of between the lines, but I think that's so true, is that if you just do one thing, you know, then you're that one kind of you want a play one part and the really good actors can wear different clothes and play different parts and be in different places emotionally, as opposed to we talked a little bit about that in an earlier episode so that some people always play the same character, and some people have incredible range. I would throw out though, in your list of great performances, my personal favorite is Billy Bob Thornton and sling. But

Kristen Cerelli 5:11

oh, that's a great one. That's great. We could have probably gone on for hours without. Yeah, that's that's a good one though. Yes, we can add that to the list. What's number two?

John Lyons 5:22

Perfect. Number two, is I just I was intrigued by the reverence for mystery, you know. And the reason that that caught my attention, I think that was your line actually, is, you know, the scientists here, if so, we're always trying to uncover things and make them kind of explainable and so forth. But there may come at a moment where that's not helpful, actually. And that, you know, having this reverence for mystery may be a key part of being happy and being having good well being, and kind of, except that you don't possibly know everything, and that you can't possibly understand everything, and that some things, it's just okay for it to be a mystery. And you can just appreciate that and have simple reverence for that. So I found that comment, fascinating and probably useful for me personally, as much as anything else.

Kristen Cerelli 6:15

I think that's core for me, I've had to remind myself of it again, and again, I don't think that we touched on this subject very much, or at least, if we did, we didn't go very deeply. But this idea that there's a spiritual aspect to being a performer, and maybe there's a spiritual aspect to anything that anyone considers a vocation, you know, I'm thinking about my last interview with Greg, but this idea that you're co creating, and you have to leave some space, for whatever it is you believe in to be part of the process. And sometimes that's just translates to timing. And sometimes that translates to, you're going to spend some time on a part and have some places where you feel blocked, and you're not going to be able to shift that until some future time. And that's, that's a mystery. So I think most performers shy away from talking about the spirituality of the process. But I do think there's an aspect of that to it.

John Lyons 7:20

You know, listen to your talk, what comes to mind as wondering whether or not just to be authentic. There's a spiritual component to it, just to allow yourself to be who you actually are, which has been a theme across people that might very well be predominantly a spiritual thing to allow yourself to go to that place, because you're accepting yourself in ways that you can't possibly explain or No, I mean, you can, yeah, you can try. But good luck I have. So I have a rule with my students, I call it the 36. The 36 rule, which is you can, you can no longer blame your parents, once you're 36 year old, you can no longer blame your parents, because you've been an adult for longer than you were a child. So now, now it's on you. Right. So I love that sort of X expletive explanatory model that people try and create. And maybe that's not actually what being authentic is, maybe it's just kind of a spiritual acceptance of who you are. And I that seems like for the really good actors, that's an important skill to have is to be able to go to that authentic place and then layer upon it.

Kristen Cerelli 8:30

Yeah, it's really, it's complicated, in a way. But I love what you just said, authenticity in itself is a spiritual practice, not just for an actor, but for any human to that idea of stripping the layers away that gave gave him said, this great phrase about, you're seeing the change of the seasons. And that is either stripping the layers away or adding the layers on. That's really interesting. But to start with a base of authenticity, and to get there in first is, I think you're onto something. They're really spiritual. Let's talk about number three.

John Lyons 9:06

Number three, I was struck by something because I've been I've been thinking about this a bit. When I think it was brandy, you made a comment of how, you know, the seven year rule. I like these things, either Rule five, or six, right? Anyway, the seven year rule that you don't really can't go to places that have been recently traumatizing. And that's just a bad idea. And there's so many people who do work with people who have been traumatized that want to dig in to the meaning of that trauma when that trauma is fresh. And I'm just wondering how dangerous that actually is, and that is trauma. And as I understand trauma informed care. It's not always digging in to talk about the trauma as respecting the deeply personal reality of when horrible things happen to you. So I was struck that that's dangerous for actors. And I can completely see that I think I've heard you talk about that with your students that you, you have to know when to not open some doors. Because there's just what's underneath that is frightening. And that makes a lot of sense. But I think that's also true. And it's maybe it's actually even more true when you're trying to help somebody. And respecting that kind of some things I was I remember my first one of the reasons why I'm a psychologist, my first psychology professor was talking about Sally Bell was talking about with some people, you just have to know not to go there. You just do not want them to talk about it. Because it's not going to resolve anything. It's just going to on Earth stuff that really you can't put back into the box. So which I think is an important, missive as important thing for everybody who talks to people who have been through difficult or horrific things. Maybe it's none of your business sometimes.

Yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree with you, I was struck by that. Also, first, because I really appreciate that they're both so well read on their topic. And probably in in their particular case, in reading about Stanislavski, and Strasburg. And all those teachers and the method much more well read than I am like, they have really gone down the rabbit hole. So when she pulled that little factoid out about Strasburg said you don't touch anything for seven years, I was like, wow, I want to I want to follow up and find out what you know what book that's in or when he said that. But yeah, and to your point, I wonder if this also adds on to what you brought to the table about, you know, practice, it's like having the intuition as a therapist or an acting teacher, when you don't have the facts. And you don't know if that thing happened seven years ago, or if why they're in a mood today is because of a recent trauma, that intuition to not go there not talking about it that only comes from practice, you know, and knowing how to read people, because you've spent so many hours reading people and asking, and asking good questions to I'm sure. But yeah, I

think that's absolutely true. And so figuring out how to do that, and how to, maybe it's when you're just learning and, you know, siding on this, putting yourself on the side of caution. Might be better than you know, being that person who uncovers that trauma, which you know, I think I remember in my own training that was seen as, as, oh, you're really good, because you've uncovered this stuff. And I'm not completely convinced that was always true.

Yeah. That's interesting. Thank you for sharing that, like knowing when to push the button isn't always maybe it wasn't the greatest gift.

Right? Not the greatest gift.

Oh, what's, what are we on? Are we on number?

I think we're on more for number four, which is my favorite.

Favorite stuff.

Okay. Last one. But this is the one that I felt most aligned with, which is the the issues of imagination and play, and the permission to match and and so I where I went in listening to that part of the episode was, you know, if you think about all our different interviews, all the interviews that people you've talked to, all of them are able to kind of imagine for themselves this how their state right? And that's a maybe that's such a fundamental part of change, if you can't, I mean, so we took home the message from Greg, that a lot of people have that you have to believe it's right. But maybe you have to believe it's right. And you can imagine it as being right that you can actually put yourself into that chain and picture it. It's very yogi, and when you think about it, because if you imagine the chain, that change happens, yeah, I'm fond of saying if you say it out loud, it's gonna happen. But a piece of that is your ability to imagine that you're Can you put your put it in your head, that that's a possibility. Now, I don't think that causes it to happen. I think it allows it to happen. And I think there's a big difference.

Big difference. It comes back again, a little bit, I think, to mystery and co creation. Yes, you can imagine it but you have to leave space for all of the bad idea of Don't, don't worry about the how, you know, in my woowoo world, they would say you know, release the house, don't don't worry about the house, don't put your energy on the house. Just Just keep seeing that thing that you want to happen. You know, keep imagining.

I'm always pushing aspirational management is a part of TOCOM and that's exactly the idea. You know, I think strategic planning is oftentimes a bunch of crap. Because you know, it's this thing of stuff you do. And I don't know I think you want to imagine what you want to be and then you want to be open to this very exams, I apologize. But you want to be open to the different possibilities that allow you to walk to that particular place. But if you over plan how to walk to that particular place, you might limit yourself to thinking, Oh, no, my strategic plan tells me I need to do this next. And then I do that next. But my experience of life is never that linear, that you really just want to make sure you it's sort of like when I drive without the GPS, you know, I know where I want to get to, but I don't really care. You know, if I turn right here or turn, right, two blocks up, you know, if I know where I'm trying to get to, I'm comfortable with that. So

can you tell me a little bit more about this thought that you have about aspirational management being more a part of T. com? I'm just curious.

Well, the problem in the helping sectors is the management is all about compliance. And so we've set up this punishment reward kind of a model of teaching, which is very Western, it's very European and American, in terms of, you know, we reward people for what you do what you should do, and you punish people for what you shouldn't do. And so, in helping sectors, there's all these rules and regulations, and you have to do this, and then you do that. And if you don't do that, and you don't document that you do that, then you might get paid and all this other stuff. But the problem is, is nobody gets into this work in the public sector to get paid, they don't get paid much at all. And so nobody is motivated by money. And punishment doesn't teach it teaches you that you don't want to get caught. And it teaches it doesn't teach you what not to do. Even it teaches you what not to report. And so it's not effective. So we know, we know that compliance models of management don't work very well. But we're so stuck in them. I was almost going to use the language of your gas, but I will behave myself. So we're stuck. And we were so stuck in this kind of notion of Oh no, here's your m&m, for doing good work. And now I'm going to take that Eminem, Eminem back because you didn't do good work as a learning model, that it's just sad, because I think and this is also this is actually master son. Taoism is that you really, actually that's not how people's journeys work, you, you want to align the organizational aspirations with the individual aspirations. So the way I manage the center, the Center at University, Kentucky is with aspirational management. And so we have aspirations for TiECon, we have aspiration for the center, but every member of the center also has have their own has their own aspirations. And so this works well is the center works well, when individual aspirations align with the center's aspirations. And it doesn't work at all, when they don't. And so we've actually used this to kind of help people say, Oh, this is actually not the place I want to be. Because my aspirations, I can't meet them in this particular place. And that's great. Or they work with us for a couple years, and they credential themselves and their aspirations leads them on to something else. That's great. That's what we want. We want we want people that striving and achieving and living their best lives. And not like, Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't fill out that paperwork the right way. Therefore, you're not a good employee. That's nonsense, in many in the large scheme of things. So that's, you know, that's the elevator speech of aspirational management.

That's cool. It it feels like, What did you say compliance? Compliance is the way things work. And you know, you actually, you find that in a classroom, you find that in an acting classroom, that one, one of the things that you have to push back so hard with with the students of all ages, not just college aged students, is they think there's a right and a wrong way to play a part to to approach a character and there isn't, but that is what they're looking for. They're looking for. Did I do it? Right? Yes. Here's your m&m. You did it. Right. Yeah. And it's really, really hard to. To break that down. It's we've we've absorbed it in our in our western world as a way of being in a way of doing and a way of achieving.

So when I assign a paper, I drive by students nuts, because they say, Well, Dr. Oz, how long should the paper be? And I'll look at them. And I'll say, What kind of question is that? You know, the paper should be as long as it needs to be for you to say what you want to say. And I'm not going to tell you it has to be five pages or 10 pages or 300 pages. It needs to be as long as it needs to be for you to communicate what you're trying to communicate. Yeah, me to put a limit on it or our standard on it is nonsense. It's not it's not what the purpose of the paper is, is for you to write 10 pages by adjusting the font and the spacing. All right, I mean, it's the purpose of writing a paper is for you to communicate verbally, something that you've learned. And so why make it about compliance with some length when the goal is for you to learn something that's of value to you that you carry forward?

This this conversation, I don't want to I don't want to drive the car in this direction. But it reminds me very much of my conversation with de Lacy, when he talked about rules, having rules and knowing what they are. And then like, knowing when it's time to step out of the rule, or push about the line of the rule. And that's very much what it's like in an acting classroom to sure there do have to be there does have to be some framework, but the best actors break the rules, they learn the rules, and then they learn they learn how to break them, too,

I would say, so what I try to do is bend the rules, you know, in particular, in a bureaucracy, so my my dean told me that, John, you are a Dean's worst nightmare, right? Because I always been the rules, but it's the director of the Center for Innovation in population. You can't innovate unless you bend the rules, because it's actually changing the rules. That is what innovation actually is. And so I always bend rules, I try not to break them, because that can be problematic or illegal. And as many rules exist for very good reasons. But I will bend them. If I think that's where the innovation needs to lie, the direction it needs to take.

Yeah, and I think I was talking to two rule vendors for sure. Whether whether you could get that completely or not. So bring me to number five.

Number five is, I thought, Gabe said something really important when he said, you know, not everybody has every gift, you know, not everybody is born to be an actor. And I think this is the big challenge with some people's approach to giving everybody an opportunity to do everything. You know, everybody gets a door prize, right? So because it ends up making everything mediocre. So some people have skills, everybody probably has a gift of something. But not everybody has a gift of everything. And so finding what your gift is, is the journey of life and not trying to pretend that you have a gift when you don't. So that's why I'm not an actor, right? It's not really my gift. I mean, I used to be a horrible public speaker, and I've gotten better. I'm actually a pretty good public speaker. But initially, I was horrible, but I and that's the same reason I'm not a good actor is I could not allow myself to be myself. But I worked with a couple of dear friends who are older than me. And they taught me how to just be yourself when you speak. It's it goes back to that authenticity again. And then now now I became an actually a very good speaker, but it was just learning to whoever you are, be that person. So I'm a smart aleck, actually. So that's what my mother always told me and allowing myself to be that kind of that smart aleck and how I communicate is how I can be authentic. So it's humor and satire, which of course, you have to be a little careful these days.

I think he did bring up that point. And he even we've we edited out some of his some of our conversation around mediocrity. But I think what's interesting to me as you're talking is, I do think a lot of people are drawn to acting or to the arts, in general, believing that they have a gift, and what they actually discover is training as an artist strips those layers away. And when they get down to who they really are, they're there and maybe not going to be a professional fill in the blank actor. But, but they've gained something really, really important in the process. They've certainly gained skills, but they've they've revealed themselves to themselves, and they can then move on and do something else. Having found that authenticity and God gotten what they needed out of the seeking.

So you actually I think I haven't spoken to her about this in exactly those terms. But I think you've described my daughter's career in New York City. So she went to conservatory and she, she worked in New York City and the acting in the theatre community for close to 10 years. Eight years at least, she was always employed. But never never for more than six weeks and usually for two or three weeks at a time, right. And she learned that she really wasn't gifted, I think, in acting but she had this interesting gift she could remember every line of everything. character have a full play. And so she actually became a stage director. And she was actually quite good at that, because she could remember every line of every play. And so she knew exactly who needed to do what next and so forth. She then translate that and now she is a she does logistics for airlines. And so that's the same skill set. It's just a different application. And she's just moved right up, she does training now. And so she's the lead trainer and instructor and it's not air traffic control. It's the it's the logistics on the on the airplane side, you know, if you, if you're at the airport, and you see the pilots stop and get that printout of their flight, that's the stuff that her group generates for every flight in her airline. So, so she's great at it, and she's just shined in that. But I think she'd discovered that gift through her work in theater, because it does kind of force you to confront what you do well and, and what you don't. And it's, it's it gives you feedback. And that feedback is immediate, can be a little bit cruel, I suspect, at times are difficult to take, but effective. And I think great for her. I think she treasures the 10 years she spent studying and participating in theater,

I'll bet I don't know one person who stayed in the business or left the business who regrets their time training as an actor or working as an actor or aspiring to be I always think that endeavor is a worthy one. Tell me about number six.

Number six is right at the end, you talked about collaboration. And everybody was on board with the fact that you're a better actor, if you're working with other good actors, right? That there's this kind of a good director and an actor, right, and that there's this, this interpersonal part of it, where you play off each other and you strengthen each other and you it's it's part of how it works on you trust each other. So I think that's also kind of a universal, it's certainly true, and a lot of of helping sector work, that you have to be able to play off each other, to interact with each other to support each other and being better versions of yourself. And, you know, I the way I frame it, oftentimes that every relationship is transformational is that every relationship we have, we try to help other people become the best version of themselves. And that's true in any direction of any relationship. So I remember I was doing some focus groups with some youth who had been in treatment in Poughkeepsie, New York, and there's this 16 year old, I said, you know, John, I'm on my third therapist, and she's doing that she's brand new, and she's doing the best she can, and I'm just doing the best I can to help her. So took it upon himself because he had this rotation he had been in Java array, this rotation of the brand new therapists, you know, they're all trainees. And he took it upon himself to learn how to train them as a part of his responsibility right now. You know, we train on poor people, right? That's how the helping sector works. And as soon as you get credential, geez, some people leave and go and work for the rich people gonna get paid a little bit more. But some of those poor people take their responsibilities quite seriously in terms of helping people that they come across, learn how to be better versions of themselves. So I think it crosses every direction. And it goes back to a little bit of what we were talking about last week about giving back is such a fundamental part of meaning, having some contributing to the greater good is so fundamental that people feeling good about themselves.

That's remarkable. That 16 year old, young person young man could could articulate that can first of all, do it and then could also articulate that. I think, a lot of actors would also say, they find satisfaction in their work because at least theater actors I that there's some feeling of providing a service and lifting people's spirits again, it comes back to the spiritual for me, but people who go see a play and in that room together have a common experience of whatever you know, learning something new or being moved or having long held beliefs challenged by the material, or seeing a version of their life up there on stage and, you know, having it having impact. I think that is important to a lot of I won't just say actors, but to a lot of artists where they do find value in their work. And that's why a lot of people stick with it, even though it often is not a financially rewarding

pursuit. Why can you imagine that you don't feel something that you're given from the audience. But I also would imagine that if you are performing at your peak, and you're helping the other actors in that particular, yes, lie or whatever, raise their, their own ability, you know, they were finding their own peak, that that must be at charge, not because of your own performance, but because you're seeing this other performance in real time that you know, is at their peak, that's got to be, like, very rewarding for an actor, I would imagine. Yeah. And

you're absolutely right, I think there is this loop. And you'll often hear, like, you know, really seasoned actors say they have this great experience with this young cast, because they get to kind of lead but the, you know, there's a generous way to lead. And then there's very sort of, let's say, you know, self serving or arrogant way to lead. And I think I think the best actors are the ones who can, who can lead in that subtle way and lead lead as a collaboration, that's for sure been my experience on both ends, you know, when I was a younger performer, and now being not such not such a young whippersnapper anymore, just being part of an ensemble is it's community, it's communal, and there is collaboration in that process from start to finish. Yeah, become

sort of your emotional family and somebody has some very real way I imagine because after you've stripped everything off and got to your authentic self, and then layered on or layered off, or whatever you're doing in terms of finding your character, I would imagine that's a pretty high level of intimacy with the other people who are going through a similar kind of process, because it's all based on starting finding your authentic place in order to get to the character. Yeah, absolutely.

It makes me curious or, or want to talk more to you about, we didn't really talk about actors as storytellers. But one of the big things that you and I have talked about with T calm is people tell stories, and people need to tell stories. And people's stories are not happening in a vacuum. And that's part of what we do as actors too, is we tell a story together. And so we really have to be, they always say, you know, you got to be in the same play. So did that at all hit you in any way? While you were listening, even though we weren't talking about it directly?

Yes, in two ways. I mean, the first was when I think it was gave talked about that when you are doing your method, you can't hurt other people. So could I know, I've read a little bit about people who are doing method who become if they're gonna play somebody who's a bit of an ass or a jerk, they act like a jerk. And they actually insult people and do this stuff that probably hurtful to people. And so what I heard him say is to be respectful. It's your method, it's not their method. And so don't be a jerk. Don't you know, respect the fact that, that you're doing this for your profession, you're not doing this for any other reason. So I thought I heard that. But I also heard it in a whole collaboration process of how you know, you're bouncing off with each other and, and all that kind of way of being with each other. So I think that's powerful.

Other than Billy Bob Thornton, ants, and Slingblade, you have other performances, you might add to the list,

I would put Jack Nicholson's court appearance, and a few good men as like one of the best scenes, because and maybe Tom Cruise's role in it is undervalued because he was the straight man to to Jack Nicholson's rage. But I thought that was a very well done, maybe it's as much directing as it was acting, but I would put that as among my favorite scenes in terms of what I thought was great acting.

Well, I'll keep being on the lookout for those and making that list. It was fun to to, to riff. And I'll be I'll be on the lookout for transformational performances of of all sorts as we go forward.

Yes, I did think that was interesting when she talked about I think was brandy talked about the fact that that movie actors have a much more difficult task than theater actors, because theater actors can be relatively linear can't change process but but movie actors are coming in and out of different of their character at different stages. And so like Pacino and Godfather had to be this massive transformation, but doing it out of sequence and so forth. I thought that was yeah, it's a

really it's a different process, and I think they both have their challenges. theater actors have to do the same show eight shows a week. And that's a feat of stamina. But movie actors often work out of sequence. And so they're calling on these bits and pieces of the transformation almost at random. Which is, which is pretty

tough. That's gotta be tough. Well, actually, I just one last story about that. Oh, yeah. In my i given the same talk, probably 1000s of times, but I've done training, and it's the same thing. And so what I discovered the art of it, is not learning what to say. But making what you say sound like you're saying it for the very first time, which is probably as if, as if this is the first time this has ever come out of your mouth.

That's exactly what we say in the theater. First time, every time. So every time you go out there, it means first time every time like the audience has never seen the show before. So even if you're bored, you have to find a way to make it fresh and make it seem like this is the first time the story is unfolding. Which is a challenge. I

never knew what that thing meant. But okay, I can play there you

go. And I know now I know what the 36 year role is. And I will stop blaming my parents.

Can't blame your parents your past that lie several years now.

Don't tell a lady sage. Well, it's always fun to see you and talk with you, John. We have one more episode in this season and I look forward to unpacking you next week.

I look forward to as well next week. Thank you