Season One: State v. Steffen Baldwin / Episode 11: The Trial of Steffen Baldwin

Steffen Baldwin: 00:00:00

They were hiring for a shelter director.

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So I kind of played up my

experience with my dad.

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: 00:00:03

I was like, oh yeah, my dad's trainer.

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I didn't freaking know the guy

until like two years earlier, so

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because of that, they gave me my

first job, uh, running a shelter.

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So that was like 2008 was my first chance

actually working at an animal shelter.

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Det. Jim Conroy:

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He lied to everybody

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Emma Ripka: If she never met

him, she would still be here.

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Jenny Falvey: There was so much deceit

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Meg Zell: this place was so

run down, it was disgusting.

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Litsa Kargakos: And I told him that

day, I said, you killed the wrong dog.

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Hon. Judge Hogan:

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When you throw the pebble into the

pond, you, you just really don't

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think about all the ripples that

come out from the pebble in the pond.

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And those ripples go in every direction,

and you don't account for 'em.

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Well, Mr.

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Baldwin, you, you've thrown

about 18 bricks in the pond.

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Dr. G:

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Hi, and welcome to the

Animal Welfare Junction.

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This is your host, Dr.

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G, and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

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This is it.

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Final episode, Season One State versus

Stefan Baldwin: Trial and Sentencing.

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This is the episode that I would

feel we've all been waiting for.

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We wanna see how trial went,

how sentencing went, how

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everybody had something to say,

how everybody came together

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to give their, their testimony

about what Stefan had done against

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animals, humans, organizations,

nonprofits in Ohio and, and in other

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places, and how sentencing held him

responsible for everything that he did.

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Melissa Chase: My name

is, uh, Melissa Chase.

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I'm an assistant prosecuting attorney.

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I'm actually the chief of the

juvenile division in our office.

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Uh, so I do a lot of work in the

juvenile system, so children's

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services cases and delinquency

and unruly in juvenile traffic.

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And I also ha handle some

of the felony prosecution.

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Courtland Perry: My

name is Cortland Perry.

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I am also an assistant

union, county prosecutor.

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Uh, my main position is the municipal

court for Marysville and the greater

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area around Marysville, but I also do

get into the felony courts as well.

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DrG: So how did, how did

this case come to you?

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Melissa Chase: Jim actually

reached out, uh, to our office.

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Uh, there was a little bit of a

jurisdictional or a venue issue,

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um, because, um, as you know, Litsa

and Angelo live in Mahoning County.

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That is where the Campbell

Police Force is located.

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However, Steffen Baldwin lived in

Union County and the majority of the

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acts that were the, the result of the

indictment happened in Union County.

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Um, Jim talked to the Mahoning County

prosecutors and they made the decision,

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or they thought the case would be better

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to be brought in Union County where

Stephen Baldwin actually was residing

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and, and conducting business.

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So Jim set up a meeting with my boss, uh,

and basically they talked about whether

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or not, uh, my boss would accept the case.

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So that's kind of how it came to us.

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My boss, David Phillips told him

that he would accept the case.

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And then we consulted with Jim as he

was finishing up the investigation.

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Det. Jim Conroy:

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I know the prosecution was overwhelmed,

you know, you always want evidence.

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You know, in any case, well, what

happens when you have too much evidence

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Melissa Chase: Me, I was overwhelmed.

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I was assigned the case to

handle it with, um, by my boss.

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And when I saw the sheer amount

of evidence, uh, that Jim had

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accumulated, it was overwhelming.

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But I, I wanna tell you, I have,

he is such a detailed person.

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Um, it, it was astounding to me how

hard he worked on this investigation.

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And please understand, I don't mean

anything negative towards law enforcement,

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but Jim went above and beyond.

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He conducted a really good investigation.

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And, uh, Dr.

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G, when you're talking about he went

down a rabbit hole, or that's the name

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of the episode, truly Jim did that.

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He investigated every single

lead in the case, which is.

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Which is astounding.

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He generated more than

77,000 pages of documents.

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DrG: I can't imagine like 77,000 pages.

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Like I know that.

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I mean, I would not be

able to get through that.

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So I commend you both for being able

to, to go through all of that and, and

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separate everything out, because then

that led to, to so many different charges.

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Melissa Chase: Jim did a favor for

us that when he wrote his reports.

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He put down or he listed what he thought

the appropriate criminal charges would,

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would be as to try and assist us.

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So the nice thing was when we went

through all of his police reports

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and when we looked at the evidence,

we at least had some of the criminal

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charges in the back of our mind.

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I was the one who wrote the indictment.

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So we went through Jim's reports, looked

at what he said he thought he saw in

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the evidence, and we made some changes.

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Det. Jim Conroy:

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There was, there's a whole bunch of other

charges I charged him with the Union

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County Prosecutor's office didn't go

with, um, they wanted to try to limit it.

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You know, 42, they thought was a

lot originally, but there were more.

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cause I had a whole entire report

written about not only his drug

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use, but his drug selling as he is

an admitted drug dealer as well.

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Melissa Chase: We disagreed

about some things.

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We had discussions about why we

didn't think some of these charges

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were appropriate and why we decided.

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You know, that he had gone too

far down the rabbit hole, if

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you understand what I mean.

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That we don't need to charge this

offense, what we have is enough.

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So it was, it was a long and kind of

a tedious process to go through that

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to determine what the actual charges

were gonna be to present to grand jury.

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DrG: Yeah.

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You know, a lot of people don't understand

the fact that just because something

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may be chargeable, you may not want

to do it for either because you can't

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prove it or because it may sound like

you're just trying to stack stuff up.

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Melissa Chase: Yeah, I think

that's, I think that's fair to say.

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Courtland Perry: Yeah.

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I think, uh, throughout the entire

process, I know def one of, uh, defense

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counsel's biggest arguments, even

though we did, or at least Missy was

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able to, uh, pare down the amount of

charges, they still felt that we were

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just stacking charges on top of him.

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Steffen Baldwin: They're literally

throwing everything but the

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kitchen sink, hoping if something

sticks or hoping that they throw

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so much at me that I take a deal.

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Again,

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that way they can get their win.

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They can get that "Hey, we prosecuted

him, he didn't leave Ohio scott free,

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we got him" you know, kind of thing.

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Right.

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Courtland Perry: Um, so it, it's one

of those things that you, you just

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gotta kind of make a judgment call on.

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DrG: I don't know that all of

our listeners understand what an

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indictment is and what that means

as far as getting things started.

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Melissa Chase: For us, an indictment

is basically a, a, a complaint.

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It lists the criminal charges.

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So in order to present a, a case to grand

jury, we prepare the legal charges that

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we believe are appropriate and we actually

make a presentation to the grand jury.

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So there are witnesses.

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Usually it's the law enforcement officer

that testify, uh, about these charges.

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We don't go in through, we don't

go into the great detail that

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you do in a trial, because quite

frankly, if we did that in Mr.

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Baldwin's case, we would've been

three weeks in grand jury as well.

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Um, but the detective or the law

enforcement officer takes you through

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the charges, explains what the evidence

is, but it's, it's more in a summary

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type proceeding and then the grand

jurors at the completion of the case

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We step outside the courtroom and leave

the grand jury in there to deliberate.

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And the grand jury is trying to determine

whether there is probable cause that these

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criminal offenses that are listed in this

criminal complaint called an indictment,

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whether those actually happened or not.

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DrG: What were the things that were

important to let the grand jury know?

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Melissa Chase: As I said, law enforcement

is usually the primary witness at,

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and that was this case as well.

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So the onus was on Jim to kind of

lay out the facts about this case.

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The reason we brought in

other witnesses like you, Dr.

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Gonzalez, um, it was important for for

the grand jurors to understand that

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there were truly real human victims in

addition to the animals in this case.

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And so that was why it was

important for them to see you.

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To talk about the impact that this had

on you to talk about your experience.

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DrG: So what is, what is that

process as far as getting him

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from California back to Ohio?

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Melissa Chase: And this was kind

of a, a complicated situation.

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We were concerned because of his

proximity to, to another country,

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to Mexico, there was some concern

initially that he may leave the country.

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And so that's why, that's primarily

why the warrant was issued.

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And Doctor, as you know, he left

the state of Ohio on, I believe

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it was February 8th, 2018.

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And he was not indicted until 2020.

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Um, so he had been in California for

a substantial amount of time before

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we actually issued the indictment.

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So we asked for a warrant

for him to be arrested.

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It was a nationwide warrant

for him to be picked up.

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And, um, I think Jim is the one who

actually, um, assisted in getting the

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US Marshals to actually arrest Steffen.

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Steffen Baldwin: My cell phone

has the cell phone of a detective

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who tricked me into coming here.

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Um, you can always give that to

the lawyer because I'm sure he,

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Girlfriend: I have, I've

already given that to people.

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Steffen Baldwin: Okay.

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Melissa Chase: Quite

frankly, they lied to him.

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And asked him to come down to

the, the local police station

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for a training session for the

law enforcement officers there.

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And my understanding when he

arrived, he was arrested by

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the US Marshals at that time.

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Steffen Baldwin: I was asked

as a ruse to provide this fake

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training at the sheriff's office.

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I went there thinking I was going

there to help law enforcement.

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I was arrested.

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Uh, the moment I walked in, I was cuffed.

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I was placed in the holding cell.

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Automated Message: Hello.

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This is a free call from

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Steffen Baldwin: Steffen.

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Automated Message: An inmate located

within a Los Angeles County Station jail.

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This telephone call may

be monitored or recorded.

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Steffen Baldwin: Hello.

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Girlfriend: Hey.

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Steffen Baldwin: All right.

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So step one, um, get ahold

of my lawyer in Ohio.

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Girlfriend: Okay.

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Steffen Baldwin: Are you good right now?

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Girlfriend: Yep.

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Steffen Baldwin: Okay.

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Step two, we gotta find

a local bail bondsman.

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Girlfriend: Okay.

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Steffen Baldwin: So we

find a bail bondsman.

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Um, bail is set at 200,000, so there's a

percentage of that that we have to come

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up with and they can use the title to

the house, the title to the motorcycle,

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the title to the Jeep Grand Cherokee, and

the title to the Ford, all as Collateral,

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Well, everything that we own, that

we have, like, you know, that's

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ours, that we have pink slips to.

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Call him, explain what happened.

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Okay?

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And, and they'll start the

process to get bonded out so

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I can deal with this at home.

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They didn't gimme details.

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He says he thinks it's

Embezzlement, but he doesn't

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really know what the charges are.

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So I don't have any details right now.

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Girlfriend: Okay.

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Steffen Baldwin: Um, I just need you to

handle those two things and hold the fort

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down and then I should be home tonight.

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Girlfriend: Okay.

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Steffen Baldwin: You got this?

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DrG: I think it's, it's great that they

appealed to, you know, hi, his sense

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of greatness that he had about himself.

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Like, oh, of course they want me

to teach 'em something, so I'm

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gonna come down and, and show them.

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Like he, it He did not see

that coming, I don't think.

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Melissa Chase: No, I

don't think so either.

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DrG: And, and I also think, I mean,

in general, he thought that he

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moved to California and left Ohio

behind and then everything was just

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gonna blow off and, you know, it

wasn't going to to come after him.

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Steffen Baldwin: It's

just fucking nonsense.

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Um.

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But I haven't been able to tell my

side of the story because my lawyer

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said that wouldn't do any good.

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They just mind your business, stay quiet

until it ever comes down to this moment.

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He didn't think it ever would.

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He actually returned my retainer like

two years ago because he's like, look,

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you've been gone for a year and a half.

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If they were gonna charge you,

they would've charged you.

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Um, so he called me.

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He's like, Hey, I'm

really surprised by this.

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I didn't, I didn't think

this was gonna happen.

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My attorney is honestly, like,

he's scratching his head.

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Litsa Kargakos: I was ecstatic.

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I was so happy because.

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Just the fact that he was arrested and

indicted on animal cruelty charges, I

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felt would make a big difference in at

least keeping him out of the animal rescue

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community because who with a half a brain

is gonna go ahead and hire a man who

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was indicted on animal cruelty charges?

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Girlfriend: Um, like everybody knows.

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Steffen Baldwin: What?

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Girlfriend: Like everybody knows.

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Steffen Baldwin: What do you mean?

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Girlfriend: Um, the, the Remi

people were writing about it online.

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Sharon Logan's writing about it online.

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So like, people have been talking

to me and asking me questions,

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texting me all day long.

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Steffen Baldwin: What does it say?

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What, what's it saying?

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Girlfriend: Um, that.

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Remi will be proud looking down

and, uh, that they took two

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years, but Litsa finally got you.

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And, um, more to come

or whatever she says.

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And then, uh, there's a lot

of talk now about Luke too.

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Steffen Baldwin: Westerman.

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Oh.

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Girlfriend: That you're

associated with that.

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Steffen Baldwin: Oh, okay.

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Girlfriend: Uh, so I think that's

actually why you're in there.

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Steffen Baldwin: Oh, you think so?

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Girlfriend: Is that Yes.

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DrG: the time, uh, whether it

be appointments, um, or just

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like running errands or, uh, I

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Meg Zell: honestly have

no idea what he was doing.

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Um, but he was always on the road,

always traveling and whatever.

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So it was a lot of me with these

dogs without any previous experience.

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Uh, you know, looking

back at it, I'm like.

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Thankful I never got hurt.

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Right?

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'Cause I like really had no experience.

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Um, but I just, I think there

was like some taken advantage of

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just like my, like love for dogs.

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Dr. G:

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And like everything else, it was a

pattern that he would continue with

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his new girlfriend in California.

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Steffen Baldwin: um, so safety for you.

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Uh, when I'm not comfortable with the dog

and I'm moving them, I dunno what they're

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gonna do, of course the Halt is on me.

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Yeah, but I usually like, take like,

uh, the bottom of a tray, like the,

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you know, the, the alcaraz crates have

those trays at the bottom or like the

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lid from a, a trash can or something and

just put it in between me and the dog.

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So I'm luring them with the food.

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I have my safety tools, but I

also have some kind of barrier

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in between me and the dog.

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So you can always do that as well.

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Girlfriend: Okay.

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I was thinking with Max too.

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I might just like keep throwing it away

from me so he goes to run and get it.

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Steffen Baldwin: Yeah, keep

throwing it away from you.

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The only other thing is Nala.

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Girlfriend: Oh,

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Steffen Baldwin: She's over there too.

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Girlfriend: Okay.

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Steffen Baldwin: Now she's a sweetheart,

but she's also a pain in the ass to get

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back in, so you could not, again, food

and the Halt were great work for her.

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You show her one and you show her the

other, and she'll listen to you, but

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you could always swap her and Comet out.

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Girlfriend: Maybe I'll do that.

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That's easier.

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Steffen Baldwin: Mm-hmm.

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Girlfriend: Okay.

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Steffen Baldwin: But yeah, just Halt,

um, food and then have like a lid

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or a tray or, you know, some kind of

barrier in between the two of you.

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Um, because we're the worst

case scenarios, one of them

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decides to go after you.

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They're gonna go after that metal,

that barrier, and then you're gonna

310

: 00:16:09

Halt them and they're gonna leave.

311

: 00:16:11

Girlfriend: Yeah.

312

: 00:16:11

Okay.

313

: 00:16:11

Steffen Baldwin: They all know what it's,

Nala hates Halts, she knows what it is.

314

: 00:16:14

So that might be the easiest thing

is to do that with both Angus

315

: 00:16:17

and, um, and Nala to be honest.

316

: 00:16:23

Yeah.

317

: 00:16:23

I gotta just, um, grab a, grab a barrier.

318

: 00:16:25

Um, halt and high value

rewards and, and very easy.

319

: 00:16:28

They're, they're, they're not hard dogs.

320

: 00:16:31

Jenny Falvey: And that's, you know,

we can't expect someone that has no

321

: 00:16:34

experience to deal with a dog who

has a potential aggression issue.

322

: 00:16:40

They don't have the experience,

they don't likely have the timing

323

: 00:16:43

and the understanding of it.

324

: 00:16:44

Not to their fault, but it's so

irresponsible, you know, to, to think that

325

: 00:16:49

someone else could just step in and do it.

326

: 00:16:51

Melissa Chase: He waived extradition,

which allowed us to bring him back without

327

: 00:16:55

having to get a governor's warrant.

328

: 00:16:57

So that, that was, uh, that was something

that was, um, good for him to have done.

329

: 00:17:04

Steffen Baldwin: Um, but I am willing,

you know, to fly back because I have to

330

: 00:17:07

answer to the, the charges where they

were filed, and they're from Ohio, so

331

: 00:17:10

I'm gonna have to go back to Ohio, but.

332

: 00:17:13

They know that I'm willing

to do that on my own.

333

: 00:17:15

Um, the same way Luke did.

334

: 00:17:16

Luke hopped on a plane after

he got released, went to Ohio,

335

: 00:17:19

you know, do what he had to do.

336

: 00:17:20

Melissa Chase: So he comes back

voluntarily to Ohio, um, has a law

337

: 00:17:24

enforcement escort back to Ohio and

the, and is incarcerated in Tri-County

338

: 00:17:30

Jail, and then brought before the

court for an arraignment, which is the

339

: 00:17:34

opportunity, a hearing where he gets

to, uh, enter a plea to the charges.

340

: 00:17:39

Almost always, it's not

guilty to all of the charges.

341

: 00:17:42

Um, and then talk about, um, whether

he wants legal counsel, a public

342

: 00:17:46

defender, or he's going to hire

his own legal counsel and what

343

: 00:17:50

the, what his bond is going to be.

344

: 00:17:52

DrG: And I know that he spent

certain amount of time in, in

345

: 00:17:56

jail awaiting what was happening.

346

: 00:17:58

And then finally he was,

he was bonded out, right?

347

: 00:18:02

Melissa Chase: Basically, if I

remember correctly, the, the bond

348

: 00:18:05

ended up being set at $200,000.

349

: 00:18:08

Um, and the court allowed, uh, 10%.

350

: 00:18:11

So he was able to post bond almost

immediately after the arraignment.

351

: 00:18:16

DrG: What were the charges

and what were the changes?

352

: 00:18:18

Melissa Chase: The original charges

on the animal cruelty for the

353

: 00:18:22

majority of the dogs that we charged,

that that particular offense were

354

: 00:18:27

charged as misdemeanors initially.

355

: 00:18:30

And also there was a falsification

charge that was a misdemeanor and

356

: 00:18:34

impersonating a law enforcement

officer that was a misdemeanor.

357

: 00:18:38

Given the amount of time that it

took for Jim's investigation and the

358

: 00:18:44

amount of time it took to get the

case indicted, we were in trouble,

359

: 00:18:49

at least according to the court.

360

: 00:18:51

With the amount of, when we're talking

about the statute of limitations.

361

: 00:18:55

And so it was challenged

by the defense counsel.

362

: 00:18:58

It was challenged successfully.

363

: 00:19:00

We lost on that issue.

364

: 00:19:02

So those misdemeanors, the cruelty

to animals that were misdemeanors

365

: 00:19:06

of the first degree and the, and

the impersonating a police officer

366

: 00:19:10

and falsification basically were

dismissed from the indictment.

367

: 00:19:15

Now, Remi had already had been indicted

as a cruelty to animals, a felony

368

: 00:19:19

of the fifth degree as had Gucci.

369

: 00:19:22

After that had happened, it was very

disappointing to, to me, since I

370

: 00:19:26

was the one who did the indictment.

371

: 00:19:28

I went back and took a look at

the law and we took a hard look

372

: 00:19:33

at the idea of needlessly killed.

373

: 00:19:36

Which quite frankly is, is an

interesting issue in this whole case.

374

: 00:19:40

Cortland and I have spent a

lot of time talking about that.

375

: 00:19:44

But at that point I brought the

case back to grand jury and for

376

: 00:19:49

the cruelty to animal charges

recharged them basically as felonies.

377

: 00:19:55

I believed that doing the research

and looking at needlessly killed,

378

: 00:20:00

um, I believed that those cases could

continue as felonies at that point.

379

: 00:20:05

So I took a second look at it

and we took it back to grand jury

380

: 00:20:09

and the grand jury indicted the

animal cruelty charges as felonies.

381

: 00:20:14

So all of them became

felonies of the fifth degree.

382

: 00:20:17

DrG: So basically his tactic

kind of backfired, right?

383

: 00:20:20

'cause then he made misdemeanors into

felonies, which should be a bigger charge.

384

: 00:20:26

Once he.

385

: 00:20:27

made bail and he was released, he had

certain stipulations, certain things

386

: 00:20:32

that he, that he had to abide to.

387

: 00:20:34

Right?

388

: 00:20:34

Melissa Chase: They were, they

basically pretrial uh, conditions.

389

: 00:20:38

Um, he had to be drug screened

was one of them that I recall.

390

: 00:20:42

Um, he had to live at a certain

place, meaning once he gave the court

391

: 00:20:47

his address, he was not allowed to

leave that, that location unless

392

: 00:20:51

he had permission from the court.

393

: 00:20:53

Uh, you know, obviously not to

commit any other, um, violations

394

: 00:20:57

of federal, state, or local law.

395

: 00:20:59

DrG: So he had to be drug free.

396

: 00:21:00

He got into a wreck during

that period of time.

397

: 00:21:03

Uh, and then there was also an

issue with that he attributed to

398

: 00:21:07

poppi seeds or something like that.

399

: 00:21:09

Melissa Chase: Um, he got into

a one, one car, I guess wreck.

400

: 00:21:14

Apparently he was in a, I won't, I

don't know if it was a state park.

401

: 00:21:18

I think that's what it was, around

the Dayton area where he was residing

402

: 00:21:22

when he, when this case first started.

403

: 00:21:25

It was a rollover accident,

a fairly serious accident.

404

: 00:21:28

As far as I know, there were

no drugs, alcohol, anything

405

: 00:21:32

that, that caused this accident.

406

: 00:21:35

He was never charged with anything,

but it was a loss of control on

407

: 00:21:39

the State Park Road, uh, at night.

408

: 00:21:42

And he ended up flipping his Jeep

multiple times, is my understanding.

409

: 00:21:46

So a really serious car accident.

410

: 00:21:50

Um, he was hospitalized obviously,

and then transferred eventually

411

: 00:21:53

to a nursing home to recover.

412

: 00:21:56

The poppy seed is, as I said,

one of the bond conditions.

413

: 00:22:00

Uh, he tested positive, uh, for an, for

an illegal substance, and that's what he

414

: 00:22:05

attributed the, um, the positive test to.

415

: 00:22:09

DrG: So all of this has happened

and then we're getting close

416

: 00:22:12

to, to the actual trial.

417

: 00:22:14

Well, to the first trial.

418

: 00:22:16

We talked to Litsa about everything

kind of leading to it, and then she

419

: 00:22:21

had some medical conditions that

prevented her from, from attending.

420

: 00:22:25

Melissa Chase: That was

an interesting situation.

421

: 00:22:27

Um, Litsa contacted us, uh, um,

about her, her medical procedure that

422

: 00:22:33

she was going through in November.

423

: 00:22:35

Our trial date, I believe, if I

remember correctly, was December 8th,

424

: 00:22:39

was when we were scheduled to start,

uh, the trial and, what she was going

425

: 00:22:44

through was a very serious procedure.

426

: 00:22:47

And this had been scheduled for a

long period of time in months prior

427

: 00:22:51

to the trial date even being set.

428

: 00:22:54

So she contacted us and after she

had like a day or so after she'd

429

: 00:23:01

had her procedure and was having

a very, very, very tough recovery.

430

: 00:23:06

So we um, we got a short note from

her doctor and we filed a motion for a

431

: 00:23:13

continuance, um, because this was major

surgery that she had gone through, and

432

: 00:23:18

the doctor had basically said he did

not believe that she would be able to,

433

: 00:23:23

to testify and to participate in the

trial, um, because of this surgery.

434

: 00:23:28

So we filed a motion for a continuance

and we were very surprised when

435

: 00:23:33

the court turned that motion down.

436

: 00:23:35

So denied that motion.

437

: 00:23:37

we, um, shared that with Litsa, and

in fact contacted her doctor and got

438

: 00:23:43

a second more extensive letter talking

about kind of some of the symptoms

439

: 00:23:49

and the pain and the things that she

was going through with this surgery.

440

: 00:23:56

Um, and submitted another motion

asking for a continuance of the

441

: 00:24:00

trial, which was also turned down.

442

: 00:24:03

Court held like a pretrial hearing.

443

: 00:24:05

I think it was about a week before

the trial was scheduled to start,

444

: 00:24:09

so we're still, I think it was at

the very beginning of December.

445

: 00:24:14

Um, and we once again renewed

our motion for a continuance.

446

: 00:24:18

The judge, once again turned it down.

447

: 00:24:21

Um, and in fact, at that point, uh,

Litsa had hired legal counsel to file,

448

: 00:24:27

uh, in the Court of Appeals, basically

asserting her rights under Marcy's Law

449

: 00:24:33

because not only was Litsa a witness in

the case and a major witness, uh, you

450

: 00:24:38

know, one of the things I pointed out

in the motion for continuance was the

451

: 00:24:42

fact that the first, I believe it was

the first nine counts in the indictment,

452

: 00:24:47

Litsa was the, was the main witness

for each one of those counts.

453

: 00:24:51

So we were unsuccessful in doing that.

454

: 00:24:54

So in, in a, I guess in a manner

of high drama, we come down to

455

: 00:24:59

the actual day of the trial.

456

: 00:25:02

Um, and I am talking to Litsa on the

phone right before the trial is starting.

457

: 00:25:08

And I remember talking to Litsa and

she told me I wanna talk to the judge.

458

: 00:25:14

I wanna address the judge directly.

459

: 00:25:17

So, at this point, Samantha Hobbes,

who is an assistant prosecutor

460

: 00:25:21

in our office, was my co-counsel.

461

: 00:25:23

So Samantha and I go back and we

talk to the judge and we tell him

462

: 00:25:29

that Litsa wants to talk to him.

463

: 00:25:31

And, um, and he, he agreed to do that

and he wanted to do it in the jury room.

464

: 00:25:38

And Litsa did not want to do that.

465

: 00:25:40

She wanted to address him on the record.

466

: 00:25:44

And so we go out into the courtroom and

what was, what was so astounding to me

467

: 00:25:50

is that we had two documentary filmmakers

who were filming the trial at that point.

468

: 00:25:57

So they are set up with their

cameras in the jury box.

469

: 00:26:01

I, you know, in a moment I will never

forget that we got Litsa on Zoom,

470

: 00:26:06

and so all of us could see her in the

courtroom and she could address the judge.

471

: 00:26:12

And she told him about how much pain

she was in, how difficult it had

472

: 00:26:19

been to recover from this operation.

473

: 00:26:21

She went into a great deal of

detail about the procedures she

474

: 00:26:26

had gone through, the impact on

her and, how much pain she was in.

475

: 00:26:32

It was incredibly, incredibly personal

stuff, and you could have heard a pin drop

476

: 00:26:39

in the courtroom while that was going on.

477

: 00:26:42

And so eventually after the judge

finished talking with Litsa, he kind

478

: 00:26:47

of looked over to the counsel table

where Sam and I were sitting, and

479

: 00:26:51

he looked at us and he said, well, I

guess she's not available to testify.

480

: 00:26:58

And I think both of us just kind

of sat there and shook our heads.

481

: 00:27:02

So the reason we got a continuance

on that first trial date was because

482

: 00:27:07

of Litsa and the courage that it took

to come to basically appear in that

483

: 00:27:12

court and tell the judge personal

information about her physical condition.

484

: 00:27:19

Yeah.

485

: 00:27:19

I've never seen anything

quite like it before.

486

: 00:27:22

So if you, you talk about drama, that

was about the most dramatic opening

487

: 00:27:26

to a trial that I've ever seen.

488

: 00:27:29

DrG: Once the case was continued,

then he lost his attorney.

489

: 00:27:35

Right.

490

: 00:27:35

And he had to, what is it?

491

: 00:27:37

Uh, he, he classified his

himself as, is it indigent?

492

: 00:27:42

Melissa Chase: Yes.

493

: 00:27:43

To, to be clear, he had four

attorneys at that point.

494

: 00:27:46

There were four attorneys that

were on, that were working for him.

495

: 00:27:50

Um, uh, attorney Michael String

asked the court to withdraw.

496

: 00:27:53

He actually, um, in essence retired

from the practice, uh, of law.

497

: 00:27:59

And so he had a pre-planned

retirement regardless of this case.

498

: 00:28:05

So when it went beyond December,

he had already planned to retire.

499

: 00:28:09

Now he had an associate from his

office that was working on the case.

500

: 00:28:14

And then another attorney, Jonathan Tyak,

and he had an associate from his office,

501

: 00:28:19

so there was a total of four of them.

502

: 00:28:21

All of them moved the court to withdraw.

503

: 00:28:24

So all four attorneys withdrew

from the case at that point.

504

: 00:28:28

And that's when Steffen filled

out the affidavit of indigency

505

: 00:28:33

saying, I don't have enough money

to pay for a private attorney.

506

: 00:28:37

DrG: Once he did that, then he

got permission to move to Florida.

507

: 00:28:41

Right.

508

: 00:28:41

'cause he said that that was the only

place that he could live with not having

509

: 00:28:45

any money with his brother, I believe.

510

: 00:28:47

Melissa Chase: Yes.

511

: 00:28:47

DrG: And then he is issued, uh, an

attorney and a court appointed attorney.

512

: 00:28:52

Is that right?

513

: 00:28:53

Melissa Chase: He got

actually two public defenders.

514

: 00:28:56

DrG: How are public defenders assigned?

515

: 00:28:58

Melissa Chase: Um, we have a re

relatively small public defender,

516

: 00:29:01

basically committee or commission.

517

: 00:29:04

Um, and so, um, there are the,

the public defenders basically

518

: 00:29:08

sign up for particular courts.

519

: 00:29:11

So the two that he got in this case were

fairly experienced felony attorneys.

520

: 00:29:17

Um, Perry Parsons is a very

experienced felony attorney.

521

: 00:29:21

He also handles municipal court

and juvenile court as well.

522

: 00:29:25

Um, and so did Mr.

523

: 00:29:26

Piestrop.

524

: 00:29:27

So he assigned Mr.

525

: 00:29:28

Piestrop and he also

assigned himself to assist.

526

: 00:29:32

DrG: So he cannot say that he did not

have good legal representation, right?

527

: 00:29:36

Courtland Perry: No, they're

both, both very qualified.

528

: 00:29:38

Um, Melissa had mentioned earlier that

this case is gonna go up on appeal.

529

: 00:29:43

Um, that will be an issue

they're going to raise.

530

: 00:29:45

That's raised in almost

every single appeal.

531

: 00:29:48

Uh, but tho, but Mr.

532

: 00:29:50

Parsons and Mr.

533

: 00:29:50

Piestrop, they're both

very qualified attorneys.

534

: 00:29:53

They both have done, uh, scores

of felony trials, uh, in addition

535

: 00:29:58

to their municipal court practice

and juvenile court practices.

536

: 00:30:01

I.

537

: 00:30:02

Melissa Chase: I had

a first in this trial.

538

: 00:30:03

I've never actually prosecuted a case

where I had to be a witness in the case.

539

: 00:30:08

Cortland, , questioned me because one of

the tactics that Steffen Baldwin took is

540

: 00:30:14

that our office was well known to him,

and that we had a close relationship and

541

: 00:30:20

that he had a close relationship with me.

542

: 00:30:23

Steffen Baldwin: The work that I

said I was doing, I was actually

543

: 00:30:25

doing, and Missy knows that.

544

: 00:30:26

Mm-hmm.

545

: 00:30:26

Because Missy, sorry, is the prosecutor.

546

: 00:30:27

Missy knows that because

she prosecuted my cases.

547

: 00:30:30

So she, like I said, when I

found out that it was her.

548

: 00:30:34

Um, and, and her, her actually

name is Miss Melissa, uh, Katie,

549

: 00:30:37

um, but like I know her so

well that i's called her Missy.

550

: 00:30:39

So I don't know if you caught that

when I was like, Hey, so is it Missy?

551

: 00:30:41

And Mike was like, well,

yeah, it actually is Missy.

552

: 00:30:43

Could you tell he was a little surprised

I knew her by like, by her nickname?

553

: 00:30:46

I don't think he realized that I

have a longstanding relationship

554

: 00:30:49

with the woman who is gonna be now

on the opposite side of the table,

555

: 00:30:52

going to the judge and saying, this

is what we should do with this man.

556

: 00:30:55

Melissa Chase: So he was the first

witness in the case, not testifying

557

: 00:30:58

about the charges, but testifying

about, uh, his relationship, um,

558

: 00:31:04

to the prosecutor, union county,

prosecutor's office, as well as me.

559

: 00:31:08

And I was the second witness in the trial.

560

: 00:31:10

So it was a very uncomfortable situation.

561

: 00:31:13

Courtland Perry: Yeah, I, I doubt

there's ever gonna be a situation.

562

: 00:31:16

In my career where I'm ever gonna get

to direct exam, my own co-counsel.

563

: 00:31:22

DrG: I can say that when I was on the

stand, I did not feel like I was in front

564

: 00:31:26

of somebody that, that was like, I mean,

for lack of a better word, dumb, right?

565

: 00:31:32

Like that was fumbling around

and not really understanding.

566

: 00:31:35

Like, he seemed to have a pretty

good understanding of the facts.

567

: 00:31:38

And he had a, I mean, like the

defense attorneys do, he tried to

568

: 00:31:44

say, say things and try to get me to

say things that were not necessarily

569

: 00:31:49

what I was trying to convey.

570

: 00:31:50

So I mean, he, I think that,

that he put up a, a pretty good

571

: 00:31:54

effort from my perspective,

572

: 00:31:56

Melissa Chase: and, and that's a

valid, a very valid perspective.

573

: 00:31:59

Um, we don't know what it was

like for you on the stand.

574

: 00:32:02

We can watch, but we don't, we

don't really understand what your

575

: 00:32:04

feelings were going through that.

576

: 00:32:06

So I appreciate knowing

that point of view.

577

: 00:32:09

DrG: So I know some of the tricks

of the trade, and I know some of

578

: 00:32:12

the things that are going to happen,

and I know how to, how to answer

579

: 00:32:15

questions and how to conduct myself.

580

: 00:32:18

But it's still, you know, this case

was a little bit different because even

581

: 00:32:21

though I was giving some, some expert

type of opinion, then there was also a

582

: 00:32:28

personal part of it, like the part where

I was a victim of what he had done.

583

: 00:32:34

And, and it honestly, it did not, it

did not hit me until sentencing, which

584

: 00:32:40

we will talk about a little bit later.

585

: 00:32:42

But the, the whole time I'm just like, you

know, this is like another day in court.

586

: 00:32:47

No big deal.

587

: 00:32:48

And then the reality came about that

this wasn't just another day in court.

588

: 00:32:53

Mm-hmm.

589

: 00:32:54

Melissa Chase: It was a, it was a

very emotional case, and we had it,

590

: 00:32:58

we had the advantage of having you.

591

: 00:33:00

I, it, it's not good that you

were a victim, but we had the

592

: 00:33:03

advantage of having a witness.

593

: 00:33:05

You were a fact witness for

us, but you also had all of the

594

: 00:33:08

credentials to be an expert witness.

595

: 00:33:10

So we, we, we got two for one if

you'll, if you were, we got a, our

596

: 00:33:15

fact witness who was an expert as well.

597

: 00:33:18

So that was very helpful to us.

598

: 00:33:20

DrG: How many charges was he

charged with as we were going in,

599

: 00:33:24

Melissa Chase: as we were going in?

600

: 00:33:25

There were 39 counts in the, that,

in the indictment that were in play.

601

: 00:33:31

DrG: Can you go over some of

the, of the different charges

602

: 00:33:33

that, that he was facing?

603

: 00:33:35

Melissa Chase: He had a bribery charge.

604

: 00:33:37

There was only one of those, which

is a felony of the third degree,

605

: 00:33:40

and that that was involving,

uh, Litsa Kargakos and Remi.

606

: 00:33:45

We had a number of telecommunications

fraud charges involving the dogs.

607

: 00:33:50

Typically those were, as

you know, he had a pattern.

608

: 00:33:54

He would, he would take a dog

in, and basically publicize the

609

: 00:33:59

rescue of the dog, post photographs

of the dogs, solicit donations.

610

: 00:34:04

He would get incredible comments

about what he, he'd done.

611

: 00:34:08

Adulation praised for saving the dog.

612

: 00:34:12

Um, but the problem for him, as you

know, became what to do with this

613

: 00:34:16

dog after the dog had been rescued.

614

: 00:34:20

He needed to be on to the next big thing.

615

: 00:34:24

The telecommunications fraud involved.

616

: 00:34:26

Um, the dog having been deceased

and Stefan posting on Facebook on

617

: 00:34:34

Petfinder, rescue Me, Ohio, that the

dog had been adopted and or telling

618

: 00:34:40

people who were invested in, you

know, what happened to the dog, lying

619

: 00:34:45

to them about the dog's condition.

620

: 00:34:48

So he never told people

the dogs were deceased.

621

: 00:34:51

He told them they were, you

know, it, it was a foster fail.

622

: 00:34:55

They were adopted or they were

living with a, with a foster family.

623

: 00:34:59

So all of the dogs that he talked

about, he said, had good outcomes

624

: 00:35:04

and the opposite was true.

625

: 00:35:06

So that's the telecommunications fraud.

626

: 00:35:09

We had, um, tampering with records,

627

: 00:35:12

four, the counts involved Remi's when he

went in after Remi had died, filling out

628

: 00:35:18

a, uh, application for a dog license for

Remi, and filling out an application for

629

: 00:35:24

a dangerous dog license for Remi after

had died, uh, in December of: 2016

630

: 00:35:31

He went in, in April, 2017 in an effort to

convince Litsa that Remi was still alive.

631

: 00:35:40

We had, theft of a firearm.

632

: 00:35:43

This was the gun that was purchased

with ACT Ohio funds that Steffen

633

: 00:35:47

took with him to California.

634

: 00:35:51

We had obviously that we talked a little

about the cruelty to animals, which ranged

635

: 00:35:55

from, that these animals were needlessly

killed or that these animals were deprived

636

: 00:36:01

of necessary, uh, veterinary care.

637

: 00:36:04

For conditions that they suffered from.

638

: 00:36:07

We had theft charges.

639

: 00:36:09

Um, we had theft from ACT Ohio, which

was Stefan's nonprofit organization.

640

: 00:36:17

And from TOPS, which is the Top of

Ohio Pet Shelter in Logan County.

641

: 00:36:23

We had a theft count for what we called

the fundraisers when he took money.

642

: 00:36:28

And Dr.

643

: 00:36:29

G you'll be familiar with this, the Art

of Act, uh, that was a joint fundraiser

644

: 00:36:34

with, with your organization's, Rascal

Charities and Rascal Animal Hospital and

645

: 00:36:38

Act Ohio, that raised net of over $16,000.

646

: 00:36:45

And then we had the engaging in a

pattern of corrupt activity, which

647

: 00:36:49

is what, what we call the Rico.

648

: 00:36:52

Um, and that was looking at Steffen

being in an enterprise with Act

649

: 00:36:56

Ohio and basically committing a

variety of offenses such as theft,

650

: 00:37:03

bribery, um, theft of a firearm.

651

: 00:37:06

Those are predicate offenses for the

Rico, but it was basically saying he had

652

: 00:37:11

a scheme or a plan to defraud people.

653

: 00:37:15

DrG: How many witnesses

did you say you had?

654

: 00:37:17

Melissa Chase: I believe it was 55.

655

: 00:37:19

55, 56 witnesses.

656

: 00:37:21

Yeah.

657

: 00:37:22

Somewhere in there.

658

: 00:37:24

DrG: And how many witnesses were

called from the defense side?

659

: 00:37:28

Courtland Perry: Maybe four.

660

: 00:37:29

Uh, they did 'em out

of order some for Yeah.

661

: 00:37:31

'cause they called their expert in

the middle of our case in chief.

662

: 00:37:34

Melissa Chase: Yes.

663

: 00:37:36

Dr. G:

664

: 00:37:36

The defense brought in an expert

witness, behaviorist type person

665

: 00:37:41

to kind of refute your findings.

666

: 00:37:43

And one of the issues that I had was that

this behavior is, or this person, I'm

667

: 00:37:49

not gonna call her a behaviorist because

she's not, this person was talking about

668

: 00:37:54

that it was okay to euthanize these dogs

just based on what was on the papers.

669

: 00:38:00

Jenny Falvey: I would disagree with

that in many instances, because some of

670

: 00:38:03

these dogs really did not have issues

and, and firsthand knowledge of Remi

671

: 00:38:08

was a very adoptable dog at that stage.

672

: 00:38:11

Melissa Chase: So Winston was taken by

Sarah Winfield, down to Rascal Animal

673

: 00:38:16

Hospital for a veterinary checkup.

674

: 00:38:19

Would you agree with that procedure,

having him medically assessed?

675

: 00:38:25

Debbie McMullen: Yes.

676

: 00:38:25

Melissa Chase: All right.

677

: 00:38:26

That's what she thought she was

taking Winston down for, correct?

678

: 00:38:31

Debbie McMullen: Correct.

679

: 00:38:32

Melissa Chase: And instead, Winston

was there at Steffen Baldwin's

680

: 00:38:35

request to be euthanized, correct?

681

: 00:38:39

Debbie McMullen: Correct.

682

: 00:38:40

Melissa Chase: And Mr.

683

: 00:38:41

Baldwin asked Dr.

684

: 00:38:42

Gonzalez to lie to Sarah Winfield

and not tell her the real

685

: 00:38:48

reason that Winston was there.

686

: 00:38:51

Debbie McMullen: Correct.

687

: 00:38:53

Melissa Chase: That's troubling behavior.

688

: 00:38:55

Would you agree?

689

: 00:38:57

Debbie McMullen: Not necessarily.

690

: 00:38:59

Jenny Falvey: Uh, you know, I think

without giving these dogs due diligence to

691

: 00:39:07

know if there was a medical component or

to give them the opportunity to work with

692

: 00:39:13

them on behavior modification, I think

it was irresponsible to have taken that.

693

: 00:39:18

And so if you're looking at it at,

just on paper, I think there are enough

694

: 00:39:23

mistakes made that these dogs, many

of these dogs could have actually

695

: 00:39:29

had the potential to be worked with.

696

: 00:39:31

Dr. G:

697

: 00:39:31

As an expert witness, I've testified,

and I usually have to say if

698

: 00:39:35

there's a conflict of interest.

699

: 00:39:36

You've testified and you made it

clear that you had worked with Remi

700

: 00:39:39

so you knew about Remi and that you

did not know about the other animals.

701

: 00:39:43

And this other expert witness already

had an idea of what she was going to find

702

: 00:39:50

before she even got the case because she

had a, she, she knew about the case back

703

: 00:39:57

when it started, back when Litsa started

looking into what happened to Remi,

704

: 00:40:01

and she thought already that Litsa was

crazy and that, you know, this was all,

705

: 00:40:07

just a witch hunt to get back at Steffen

706

: 00:40:11

Melissa Chase: You've known Mr.

707

: 00:40:11

Baldwin, we talked about this before

for several years, is that correct?

708

: 00:40:15

Debbie McMullen: That is correct.

709

: 00:40:17

Melissa Chase: And did you know about

this case when it first was indicted?

710

: 00:40:22

Debbie McMullen: Yes.

711

: 00:40:23

I mean, it was all over

the internet, so yes.

712

: 00:40:25

Melissa Chase: Okay.

713

: 00:40:26

And if you recall, um, did you

make any comments about this case?

714

: 00:40:31

Debbie McMullen: Oh, I'm sure,

yes, I didn't believe that he would

715

: 00:40:35

deliberately do anything to harm any dog.

716

: 00:40:39

Melissa Chase: And did you make comments

about this case on social media?

717

: 00:40:43

Debbie McMullen: Absolutely.

718

: 00:40:45

Melissa Chase: And did you feel like

you needed to disclose the fact that

719

: 00:40:48

you actually commented on social media,

um, about this case to the court?

720

: 00:40:53

Debbie McMullen: I did disclose that

when I was contacted by the the attorney.

721

: 00:40:57

Melissa Chase: Is that in your report?

722

: 00:40:59

Debbie McMullen: No, I didn't

know it needed to be in my report.

723

: 00:41:01

Melissa Chase: You're, and

you're Debbie McMullen, correct?

724

: 00:41:04

On this Facebook site?

725

: 00:41:06

Debbie McMullen: Correct.

726

: 00:41:07

Melissa Chase: Did you make a comment

saying something along the lines of,

727

: 00:41:09

and you know this for a fact, right?

728

: 00:41:12

And I'm not talking about

believing Lisa's false accusations.

729

: 00:41:17

Did you make a comment like that?

730

: 00:41:18

Debbie McMullen: I, I did.

731

: 00:41:19

I'm sure it did, but it is been years.

732

: 00:41:21

I'm not gonna remember every

single comment I made in the past.

733

: 00:41:25

Again, I knew about it.

734

: 00:41:27

I was not part of the keyboard warriors

and I made my own determination based

735

: 00:41:34

on what I knew, and then years went by

and then I gathered this determine I

736

: 00:41:39

gathered this material that was given

this task to do and it can simply

737

: 00:41:46

confirm what I believed at the time.

738

: 00:41:50

Melissa Chase: All right.

739

: 00:41:50

So you had formed an opinion

about this case before you ever

740

: 00:41:54

looked at the materials, correct?

741

: 00:41:57

Debbie McMullen: Correct.

742

: 00:41:58

Melissa Chase: All right, so a comment

that you made Well, unless you actually

743

: 00:42:01

had a conversation with the man in

question about what happened, I don't

744

: 00:42:05

think you can say that any article is

accurate when it is painting him as

745

: 00:42:10

exactly what the woman who spent three

years trying to manufacture evidence

746

: 00:42:15

against him is claiming.

747

: 00:42:17

Local doesn't mean factual.

748

: 00:42:19

It means that there are crazy people

who maintain grudges for a long time.

749

: 00:42:24

Did you say that?

750

: 00:42:26

Debbie McMullen: I'm sure I did.

751

: 00:42:28

Again, this is many years ago.

752

: 00:42:29

Melissa Chase: And then to Jeff,

no, I'm not making up anything.

753

: 00:42:33

Anyone can get charged with anything.

754

: 00:42:35

It took three years to

manufacture so-called evidence.

755

: 00:42:40

If there really was an issue,

he would've been charged

756

: 00:42:43

within a reasonable timeframe.

757

: 00:42:45

This is what happens when an

insane person has a revenge agenda.

758

: 00:42:50

I'm not the crazy one.

759

: 00:42:52

You are.

760

: 00:42:54

Sound like something you would've said?

761

: 00:42:56

Debbie McMullen: Absolutely.

762

: 00:42:57

Keyboard warriors will go out there

trying to ruin your business if you

763

: 00:43:03

have anything to do with the situation.

764

: 00:43:06

And that just means that could mean

supporting the person who's the victim.

765

: 00:43:11

I think it is ridiculous that

that is permitted to happen.

766

: 00:43:15

People should base these things on

actual facts, all sides of the equation,

767

: 00:43:20

not just their version of such.

768

: 00:43:23

Melissa Chase: Would it be fair

to say that you were defending Mr.

769

: 00:43:26

Baldwin and you had no facts

in the case yet back in: 2020

770

: 00:43:31

Debbie McMullen: Yes, I have

facts on my knowledge of him

771

: 00:43:35

Melissa Chase: Okay.

772

: 00:43:35

And you were fairly vigorous

in your defense of Mr.

773

: 00:43:38

Baldwin.

774

: 00:43:38

Would that also be fair to say?

775

: 00:43:41

Debbie McMullen: That

would be fair to say.

776

: 00:43:42

Melissa Chase: All right.

777

: 00:43:42

And you formed an opinion

about this case back in: 2020

778

: 00:43:46

You just told us that?

779

: 00:43:48

Debbie McMullen: Yes.

780

: 00:43:49

Jenny Falvey: Uh, so I think, you

know, as an expert witness, it, it

781

: 00:43:52

is a hard thing to look at something,

and I think you have to remember what

782

: 00:43:55

the scope of your responsibility is.

783

: 00:43:57

So, you know, the directive from for

me was were what were these dogs given

784

: 00:44:04

the opportunity to change behavior?

785

: 00:44:06

Was there, was this, was

there any training done?

786

: 00:44:10

Um, and having any, you,

you have to be able to

787

: 00:44:18

kind of eliminate any

biases of the individual.

788

: 00:44:22

Um, and although I had only met Stephan

once and it was just a brief hello and I

789

: 00:44:28

didn't have, but obviously I, you know,

I didn't have the relationship friendship

790

: 00:44:33

that the other person had with him.

791

: 00:44:35

But I think it doesn't mean you couldn't

be an expert witness, but you have to

792

: 00:44:38

be able to set that aside and look at

simply the facts that are in front of you.

793

: 00:44:44

And I don't think you can dispute based

on what was put forth that these dogs were

794

: 00:44:50

not provided what they should have had.

795

: 00:44:53

Um, and in fact, were provided things

that were to the detriment of these dogs.

796

: 00:44:58

And so I think as a expert witness,

um, it is something where you have to

797

: 00:45:02

be able to just focus on the scope of

what you are being asked to do and not

798

: 00:45:08

look at any other aspect of it or the

individual, because that is, that is

799

: 00:45:12

not relevant to what you are looking at.

800

: 00:45:15

DrG: Once you were done with all

the witnesses, how did you feel

801

: 00:45:19

about how the, how the trial went?

802

: 00:45:22

Melissa Chase: I'm trying to think

back to what that feeling was like.

803

: 00:45:25

Uh, re relief was one of the

first things that, that we felt

804

: 00:45:29

getting through it successfully.

805

: 00:45:32

Um, and, and why we didn't, at least

for me, why we didn't have an immediate

806

: 00:45:35

reaction is because we did our closing

arguments, as you're aware of in writing.

807

: 00:45:41

So our, our journey, our task

wasn't finished at that point.

808

: 00:45:45

So while it was a relief to have

the testimony behind us, we still

809

: 00:45:49

had that hurdle to get over in

writing the closing argument.

810

: 00:45:52

That's what, you know, that's what

drew this whole thing, the case out

811

: 00:45:56

so long, is trying to get the closing

arguments and things like that in, I,

812

: 00:46:01

you know, and I will say the people

that talked to Cortland and I, I, I, I

813

: 00:46:05

agree with what he had to say about it.

814

: 00:46:07

It was a logistical nightmare

to try and figure out who was

815

: 00:46:11

gonna testify for us on what day.

816

: 00:46:14

And it constantly changed.

817

: 00:46:16

But when we reached out

to people to talk to them.

818

: 00:46:19

I can't remember that anybody

turned down talking to us.

819

: 00:46:23

Mm-hmm.

820

: 00:46:23

There were certainly people that were

not enthusiastic about being involved

821

: 00:46:27

in this hope process, would've preferred

not to have been involved, but they

822

: 00:46:32

all cared about what we were doing.

823

: 00:46:36

They care, they either cared

about the animals and were gonna

824

: 00:46:40

testify because they wanted to

testify and help, help us that way.

825

: 00:46:46

Or they were, you know, they were

victim of, of thefts and things like

826

: 00:46:51

that, and they felt strongly about

holding him accountable for that.

827

: 00:46:55

So, I, I can't say enough nice things

about the people that worked with us.

828

: 00:47:00

Cortland Perry, Union Co. Asst. Prosecutor:

829

: 00:47:00

Absolutely.

830

: 00:47:01

DrG: I think that, as you mentioned,

like people were, I think a lot of people

831

: 00:47:04

were happy to finally see him being, you

know, put on there to answer for all the

832

: 00:47:10

crimes that he had committed, because he

hurt a lot of people, he hurt a lot of

833

: 00:47:13

animals, and even people that were not

directly involved were harmed in some

834

: 00:47:17

way, like emotionally or financially.

835

: 00:47:20

Melissa Chase: One of the witnesses

I will never forget, it was the

836

: 00:47:23

widower of, um, we were gonna actually

use Constance Swackhammer, as a

837

: 00:47:29

witness for the, for the dog, Sammy.

838

: 00:47:32

Um, and Constance

unfortunately passed away.

839

: 00:47:35

Everything I've learned about her, I, I

think she was an outstanding human being.

840

: 00:47:40

And I will never forget the time that I

spent on, on the phone talking to her,

841

: 00:47:45

but she unfortunately passed away and we

wanted to get, it was a telecommunications

842

: 00:47:52

fraud charge involving Sammy.

843

: 00:47:55

We wanted to be able to

put on evidence about that.

844

: 00:47:58

So I reached out to Constance husband,

Larry, and I truly think, you know,

845

: 00:48:04

someone was looking out for us because

Larry still had Constance phone and the

846

: 00:48:11

Constance text messages was Stefan Baldwin

from: 2016

847

: 00:48:20

I, I couldn't believe it.

848

: 00:48:21

I, I couldn't find a

: 2016

849

: 00:48:26

So we met with Larry, who was, who was

grieving so, so very greatly for his wife.

850

: 00:48:33

And he told me that this would be

what Constance would want him to do.

851

: 00:48:39

And so he appeared at the trial, he

brought her cell phone with him, and

852

: 00:48:44

we were able to lay the foundation

for the text that Stefan Baldwin sent

853

: 00:48:49

to her about Sammy after Sammy had

been euthanized, telling Constance

854

: 00:48:55

that Sammy was in a foster home first,

that he was in a smaller playgroup

855

: 00:49:00

and then he went to a foster home.

856

: 00:49:03

So we were able to get those text messages

in, um, by the grace of God I like to say.

857

: 00:49:09

But I will never forget how emotional

that testimony was with Larry on

858

: 00:49:14

the stand, talking about, um, his

wife who had just passed away.

859

: 00:49:20

DrG: One of the people that

I think that was on your list

860

: 00:49:22

of witnesses was Jane Cooper.

861

: 00:49:25

Who was at Tops.

862

: 00:49:26

And she was, she was very important to me

personally because I knew her and she was

863

: 00:49:31

very supportive of everything that we did.

864

: 00:49:33

And she was actually a board member

for, uh, for Rascal Charities.

865

: 00:49:37

Like eventually she was helping us go

to Logan County and, and offer spay

866

: 00:49:43

neuter services and that kind of stuff.

867

: 00:49:45

But I know that she really wanted

to be there and she really wanted to

868

: 00:49:49

say, you know, what she needed to say.

869

: 00:49:52

And unfortunately, cancer

took her away from us.

870

: 00:49:55

Melissa Chase: I certainly learned

about her from her daughter,

871

: 00:49:57

her granddaughter, Erica.

872

: 00:49:58

I talked to Erica because Erica,

as you know, worked at Tops.

873

: 00:50:02

Um, and she was able, we didn't end

up using Erica, uh, but she was, um,

874

: 00:50:08

very helpful, talked to me about her

grandmother, um, and had definite

875

: 00:50:14

opinions about Steffen Baldwin.

876

: 00:50:16

DrG: So you, you mentioned that you

had written closing arguments, and

877

: 00:50:21

that's something that actually I had

never heard about until this case.

878

: 00:50:25

Melissa Chase: It was something

that, uh, that we had to have happen.

879

: 00:50:28

And I'm, I'm saying that you already have

heard there were 39 charges and to try and

880

: 00:50:34

summarize three weeks of testimony in, in

the span of a couple of hours, I didn't

881

: 00:50:40

feel like we could do justice to that.

882

: 00:50:43

And we got no pushback

from the defense counsel.

883

: 00:50:47

Um, they, you know, while we have to argue

about all the elements in the 39, um,

884

: 00:50:52

charges, they've gotta defend all of that.

885

: 00:50:55

So they, we both realized that

it was an overwhelming task.

886

: 00:50:59

Um, and Judge Hogan

was very good about it.

887

: 00:51:02

So we laid out basically a briefing

schedule, and we did, we, we

888

: 00:51:06

presented the briefs in the closing

arguments, um, as we would in a trial,

889

: 00:51:11

which means the state goes first.

890

: 00:51:12

So I filed and, and I say

I Courtland and I wrote it.

891

: 00:51:16

Um, we filed, uh, the

closing argument first.

892

: 00:51:20

The defense counsel had the

benefit of them reading our closing

893

: 00:51:23

argument and responding to it.

894

: 00:51:25

And then we got to do in essence a

sir rebuttal, uh, closing argument.

895

: 00:51:30

And obviously that doesn't

work when you have a jury.

896

: 00:51:33

You have to present it

live when you have a jury.

897

: 00:51:36

DrG: So you're done with, you have

done your closing arguments and then

898

: 00:51:40

there's a hitch because they come back

with something about Detective Conroy.

899

: 00:51:45

So what was that about?

900

: 00:51:47

Melissa Chase: They, um, had, I'm

trying to think how it unfolded.

901

: 00:51:52

I believe it was someone notified defense

counsel that Jim had some disciplinary

902

: 00:52:00

history in his background, um, that had

not been provided to defense counsel.

903

: 00:52:07

Courtland Perry: Somebody had sent the

defense a news article from, I don't

904

: 00:52:13

know, 20 years ago, 25 years ago,

and just sent it to defense counsel.

905

: 00:52:18

And defense counsel then started

wondering what was going on.

906

: 00:52:23

DrG: I thought that it was

something more recent, more

907

: 00:52:25

kind of like relevant, so, yeah.

908

: 00:52:28

Yeah.

909

: 00:52:29

And, and ba and were, were they trying

to go after his credibility or what

910

: 00:52:34

was their, what was their end game?

911

: 00:52:37

Melissa Chase: Yeah, I think they

were trying to, uh, attack his

912

: 00:52:39

credibility saying, you know,

you see there was a disciplinary

913

: 00:52:43

incident, he's not a good officer.

914

: 00:52:46

You know, so we thought, honestly that

they would attack Jim, you know, and try

915

: 00:52:51

and, and prove that he's biased against

Steffen Baldwin that, you know, he didn't

916

: 00:52:56

like Steffen Baldwin, so he didn't, he

wasn't fair in his investigation, but

917

: 00:53:01

that was not something I was surprised.

918

: 00:53:04

I don't know how Cortland felt, but that

was not really something that they, um,

919

: 00:53:08

you know, that they went after, or they,

they brought up when he was on the stand,

920

: 00:53:13

they wanted to talk about something that

years ago in: 1999

921

: 00:53:20

DrG: And, and talking to Jim, it wasn't,

it wasn't what they were talking about.

922

: 00:53:25

And he really, like, he had won

that case and had moved on and there

923

: 00:53:31

was nothing negative on his record.

924

: 00:53:33

Melissa Chase: Yeah, I, I, you

know, I don't even know that they

925

: 00:53:35

had much of his record left Youngs.

926

: 00:53:37

It was the Youngstown, uh, police

department, and basically while

927

: 00:53:41

they had disciplined Jim, he

ended up getting his job back.

928

: 00:53:46

So, you know, it, for us, it was

an incredibly minor incident.

929

: 00:53:52

Um, but, and the, the only good

thing is Jim got to go on the stand

930

: 00:53:57

and to explain his point of view.

931

: 00:54:01

Courtland Perry: It was essentially

a unique situation because we had, at

932

: 00:54:05

that point, had wrapped the case up.

933

: 00:54:07

We had filed our closing arguments,

but both sides had filed their closing

934

: 00:54:11

arguments at that point, and the judge

was essentially about to start reading

935

: 00:54:16

everything and making his decision

when defense counsel filed this.

936

: 00:54:20

Uh, so created an interesting situation

where everything was done and then we

937

: 00:54:23

actually went back into court, opened

the case back up, and allowed defense

938

: 00:54:28

counsel the opportunity to ask Dete,

uh, the detective about these things.

939

: 00:54:32

Uh, so essentially that is not

how things are normally done.

940

: 00:54:38

DrG: So then once that was done,

then the judge has the time to

941

: 00:54:42

read all of this information.

942

: 00:54:44

And I mean, I don't envy him because there

was just so much stuff from both sides

943

: 00:54:49

and so much that he needed to look at.

944

: 00:54:52

Um, but finally he calls everybody

back and says that he's ready

945

: 00:54:57

to do the, the sentencing.

946

: 00:54:59

And at that point Stefan was in Florida.

947

: 00:55:02

So how does the, how does that

work as far as getting him back?

948

: 00:55:06

Melissa Chase: He came back on his own.

949

: 00:55:07

Um, we didn't have to do

anything at that point.

950

: 00:55:10

Obviously, if he hadn't shown up, that's

when, when we would've stepped in and

951

: 00:55:15

issued warrants and those types of things.

952

: 00:55:18

Um, but he came back, um, in

accordance with his bond conditions.

953

: 00:55:22

That was one of which is

he shows up for hearings.

954

: 00:55:26

DrG: Part of the, of the sentencing

was the victim impact statements,

955

: 00:55:31

and that's really important as

far as the judge hearing how

956

: 00:55:36

people were harmed by his actions.

957

: 00:55:40

Melissa Chase: They can be immensely

impactful on the judicial officer

958

: 00:55:44

that's hearing this, you know, this

is not an appeal for sentiment.

959

: 00:55:49

Uh, the judges are, you know, they're

not being ru ruled by sympathy,

960

: 00:55:53

you know, and the sentencing is not

for the jury to, to be involved in.

961

: 00:55:57

Obviously we didn't have a jury,

but the jury's not involved in

962

: 00:56:00

sentencing for the most part.

963

: 00:56:02

So I, you know, I think what Judge

Hogan heard that day from the victims

964

: 00:56:09

was incredibly impactful for him.

965

: 00:56:12

Courtland Perry: Yeah, I mean,

the victim impact statement is

966

: 00:56:14

truly the chance for us to inject

some humanity into every case.

967

: 00:56:20

So many ca I mean, so many

cases don't go to trial.

968

: 00:56:22

They're pleas.

969

: 00:56:23

But even the cases that do go to trial,

we're limited on what we can talk about.

970

: 00:56:29

I.

971

: 00:56:29

And what the victims can talk about.

972

: 00:56:30

We obviously, we talk about the

facts of the case, but they don't

973

: 00:56:34

get to get up there and really

explain how has it impacted them.

974

: 00:56:37

So really the victim impact statements

is a chance for the judge to kind of hear

975

: 00:56:42

what, how has this affected somebody?

976

: 00:56:45

I, I've heard what happened

now, what's the outcome of that?

977

: 00:56:49

And that's really a chance for the

judges and, and even just everyone in

978

: 00:56:52

the courtroom to kind of get a better

understanding of what's going on.

979

: 00:56:56

DrG: I spent a lot of time thinking about

what I wanted to say, and, and I know

980

: 00:57:02

that like your office kept saying like,

Hey, if you can have it by this date,

981

: 00:57:05

and then I didn't have it by that date.

982

: 00:57:08

And then there was another date,

and there was another date.

983

: 00:57:10

And I felt bad because it's like, it,

it felt like procrastinating, but it

984

: 00:57:14

wasn't, it was like every day I kept

thinking about something that I wanted to

985

: 00:57:19

say, make sure that I said, or something

that I wanted to say differently.

986

: 00:57:24

And it literally, I literally did not

finish my statement until that day.

987

: 00:57:30

I finished writing everything that I

needed to say, and I got in my car and I

988

: 00:57:35

got there and, you know, uh, with, I don't

know, an half hour, an hour to, to spare.

989

: 00:57:41

Because it, again, it's, I've

written lots of reports, like

990

: 00:57:47

criminal reports and forensic reports

and everything is very factual.

991

: 00:57:52

Everything is very objective.

992

: 00:57:54

And then here is something that I

needed to talk about how I was affected.

993

: 00:57:59

And even as I was writing it, like I felt

really good about what I was writing.

994

: 00:58:03

I'm writing and I was like, yep, this is

what I wanna say and this sounds good.

995

: 00:58:08

And I think that this really

demonstrates how, how I feel.

996

: 00:58:14

And then when I stood up there and things

got real, I honestly for a second didn't

997

: 00:58:21

think that I was gonna be able to read it.

998

: 00:58:23

I felt that I was gonna have to

have somebody else read it for me

999

: 00:58:26

and I'm not an emotional person.

: 1000

00:58:28,610 --> 00:58:32,090

And it was like just, it was surreal.

: 1001

00:58:32,915 --> 00:58:37,505

What I, what I was feeling and how,

and being able to, to get through it.

: 1002

00:58:38,055 --> 00:58:38,056

Dr. G:

: 1003

00:58:38,056 --> 00:58:39,225

Good afternoon, your Honor.

: 1004

00:58:40,185 --> 00:58:44,085

My name is Michelle Gonzalez and I'm

an veterinarian with an organization,

: 1005

00:58:44,085 --> 00:58:46,085

commonly known, referred to as Rascal.

: 1006

00:58:46,935 --> 00:58:53,715

Um, I have known of Steffen Baldwin for

about over 10 years, and I say of because

: 1007

00:58:53,715 --> 00:58:55,575

back then I didn't really know who he was.

: 1008

00:58:55,815 --> 00:58:59,655

It took a few years to realize

who he really was, and by then

: 1009

00:58:59,655 --> 00:59:00,945

so much harm had been done.

: 1010

00:59:02,145 --> 00:59:05,065

I met Steffen when we were both doing

a presentation on animal cruelty,

: 1011

00:59:05,095 --> 00:59:08,775

and I was really excited to meet

someone that I could partner with to

: 1012

00:59:08,775 --> 00:59:12,705

help animals in the community at a

larger scale than what I was doing.

: 1013

00:59:13,725 --> 00:59:17,715

But where I saw partnership,

he saw opportunity, a mark,

: 1014

00:59:18,915 --> 00:59:20,350

someone he could benefit from.

: 1015

00:59:22,785 --> 00:59:25,155

I hate referring to myself as a victim.

: 1016

00:59:25,970 --> 00:59:29,865

'because it feels weak,

vulnerable, and helpless.

: 1017

00:59:31,245 --> 00:59:36,375

But while I think of myself as a strong

person, I have to admit to myself and

: 1018

00:59:36,375 --> 00:59:38,285

everyone that I was conned by Steffen.

: 1019

00:59:39,975 --> 00:59:43,215

I believed what he said, I

thought he wanted to help.

: 1020

00:59:44,055 --> 00:59:47,955

In my mind, I have found someone to

compliment what I could do and truly

: 1021

00:59:48,115 --> 00:59:50,835

believed we were gonna make a huge impact.

: 1022

00:59:51,925 --> 00:59:55,545

But soon after I started working with

him, he started to show the person he was.

: 1023

00:59:56,595 --> 01:00:00,435

At first, I thought he was just

scattered and irresponsible, but

: 1024

01:00:00,435 --> 01:00:03,615

over time I realized all he was

looking for was notoriety and money.

: 1025

01:00:04,630 --> 01:00:07,525

He fundraised for both our,

our organizations, yet he

: 1026

01:00:07,545 --> 01:00:08,745

kept the funds for himself.

: 1027

01:00:09,555 --> 01:00:13,875

He had fundraised for our cases without me

knowing with funds going directly to him.

: 1028

01:00:14,865 --> 01:00:18,115

He deceived donors by letting the belief

that costs were hire than they were.

: 1029

01:00:19,065 --> 01:00:24,255

Meanwhile, I was giving my time,

my staff, supplies, assistance and

: 1030

01:00:24,255 --> 01:00:28,695

knowledge at little to no cost because

I believed in what we were doing.

: 1031

01:00:29,415 --> 01:00:33,480

Needless to say, my business and

my nonprofit suffer financially as

: 1032

01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,410

there was no return for what we had

done as he had placed all fundraising

: 1033

01:00:37,410 --> 01:00:39,570

efforts to his own organization.

: 1034

01:00:41,850 --> 01:00:44,550

Beyond the financial impact

there is something bigger for

: 1035

01:00:44,550 --> 01:00:45,930

which I can never forgive him,

: 1036

01:00:46,620 --> 01:00:49,590

the damage he did to the animals,

their caretakers, the rescue

: 1037

01:00:49,590 --> 01:00:50,910

community, and the public.

: 1038

01:00:52,020 --> 01:00:54,780

He deceived people by letting them

believe that he was rehabilitating

: 1039

01:00:54,780 --> 01:00:56,400

and finding homes for at-risk dogs.

: 1040

01:00:57,260 --> 01:01:01,750

He flaunted his ability to save any dog,

and while he was talking about what he

: 1041

01:01:01,750 --> 01:01:05,505

could allegedly do, he was killing the

dogs just to open space for others.

: 1042

01:01:08,175 --> 01:01:12,065

He used to share this quote saying,

only a punk would hurt a dog.

: 1043

01:01:12,855 --> 01:01:13,785

He is that punk.

: 1044

01:01:15,465 --> 01:01:20,505

This degree of deception is that of

someone who has no empathy, no ability to

: 1045

01:01:20,505 --> 01:01:25,335

care for the feelings of others, someone

willing to do or say anything for their

: 1046

01:01:25,335 --> 01:01:26,955

own benefit, including killing dogs.

: 1047

01:01:27,015 --> 01:01:29,055

I know this is my victim impact statement.

: 1048

01:01:29,415 --> 01:01:32,565

But while not recognized as such,

I wanna speak for the true victims

: 1049

01:01:32,565 --> 01:01:34,485

of Stephen's actions, the animals.

: 1050

01:01:35,505 --> 01:01:38,480

Regardless of their issues or

behaviors, they deserved better.

: 1051

01:01:39,195 --> 01:01:42,555

They trusted him and he betrayed

them in the cruelest of ways.

: 1052

01:01:43,305 --> 01:01:46,455

He was supposed to save them

all, but instead he harmed

: 1053

01:01:46,455 --> 01:01:47,595

him and caused them suffering.

: 1054

01:01:48,405 --> 01:01:51,795

I do not want take away from

the animals, from their memory

: 1055

01:01:51,795 --> 01:01:52,815

and from their sacrifice.

: 1056

01:01:55,275 --> 01:01:58,785

This is an impact statement, and

I wanna recognize them for it.

: 1057

01:02:00,305 --> 01:02:04,640

In closing, I wanna thank everyone who

stepped up to hold Steffen accountable.

: 1058

01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:09,840

And as you your honor, sentence him for

his actions, I want you to consider his

: 1059

01:02:09,930 --> 01:02:15,270

lack of remorse and acknowledgement for

what he has done, the impact he has had

: 1060

01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:17,820

on so many emotionally and financially.

: 1061

01:02:18,570 --> 01:02:22,530

The fact that if allowed, I believe he

will use animals again for his benefit.

: 1062

01:02:23,100 --> 01:02:26,010

And the recent Supreme Court

decision in state versus Kyles

: 1063

01:02:26,010 --> 01:02:28,290

acknowledging that all animals matter.

: 1064

01:02:29,325 --> 01:02:32,895

Nothing will bring the animals back, but

we can start healing by knowing that he

: 1065

01:02:32,895 --> 01:02:36,935

has been held accountable for his actions

and that he will never be allowed to use

: 1066

01:02:37,035 --> 01:02:39,225

animals or people for his own benefit.

: 1067

01:02:40,455 --> 01:02:40,910

Thank you, your Honor.

: 1068

01:02:41,665 --> 01:02:47,785

DrG: Being in that position, having

to, to speak, um, and get very

: 1069

01:02:47,785 --> 01:02:50,515

personal and be very vulnerable.

: 1070

01:02:50,665 --> 01:02:52,405

That's not something that I'm used to.

: 1071

01:02:52,975 --> 01:02:56,725

So it was, it was definitely

hard to get through.

: 1072

01:02:57,265 --> 01:02:59,455

Melissa Chase: Well, we appreciate

the efforts you put into it.

: 1073

01:02:59,455 --> 01:03:04,945

As I said, I, I know we've said

it's impactful, um, but it also is

: 1074

01:03:04,945 --> 01:03:10,675

important for the court to see how

much it mattered to so many people.

: 1075

01:03:10,675 --> 01:03:11,425

Mm-hmm.

: 1076

01:03:12,170 --> 01:03:15,890

DrG: So then, you know, we get through,

through our victim impact statements

: 1077

01:03:15,890 --> 01:03:18,740

and then he has an opportunity to speak.

: 1078

01:03:19,310 --> 01:03:26,630

And in my opinion, it was, I mean, what

I would expect, just very self-centered.

: 1079

01:03:27,050 --> 01:03:32,330

When you are giving your statement

to the court, you need to demonstrate

: 1080

01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:37,190

that you feel remorseful and you

feel sorry for the damage that

: 1081

01:03:37,190 --> 01:03:38,810

you have caused to the victims.

: 1082

01:03:39,050 --> 01:03:44,540

And as he was talking, I personally did

not feel like he cared about the harm

: 1083

01:03:44,540 --> 01:03:46,910

that he had caused me or anyone else.

: 1084

01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,910

Melissa Chase: I think so I don't

think he turned around and looked

: 1085

01:03:49,910 --> 01:03:54,680

at anybody or addressed any of those

remarks to the victims who were sitting

: 1086

01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,650

behind him and off hi off to his left.

: 1087

01:03:57,650 --> 01:04:02,210

So it would not have been difficult

for him to turn and face, uh, you

: 1088

01:04:02,210 --> 01:04:05,420

know, the, the victims that were

in the gallery, he didn't do that.

: 1089

01:04:05,660 --> 01:04:11,300

And I'm trying to think, somebody had

told me that I think he, um, referred

: 1090

01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:17,060

to the victim as the victims as those

people when he was talking to the court.

: 1091

01:04:18,270 --> 01:04:21,960

Steffen Baldwin: That I wasn't sharing

what happened with the People Behind Me.

: 1092

01:04:23,790 --> 01:04:28,950

These agreed upon facts have already

been heard, said before, and both

: 1093

01:04:28,950 --> 01:04:30,779

here and and to the People Behind Me.

: 1094

01:04:31,101 --> 01:04:34,551

It's important to me, again, only

from a context standpoint, that

: 1095

01:04:34,551 --> 01:04:35,991

the People Behind Me understand.

: 1096

01:04:36,710 --> 01:04:41,510

Melissa Chase: Those aren't tones or

words of remorse using phrases like that.

: 1097

01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:47,000

Courtland Perry: No, I, I mean, I'll never

forget when he was wrapping up what he

: 1098

01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:51,890

was saying and he said, well, I just want

to, to declare here that I'm officially

: 1099

01:04:51,890 --> 01:04:53,930

retiring from the animal community.

: 1100

01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,520

Steffen Baldwin: I believe that my

permanent retirement in the field

: 1101

01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:00,095

of animal rescue and the advocacy

work that goes with it might

: 1102

01:05:00,095 --> 01:05:01,535

mean more than just an apology.

: 1103

01:05:02,328 --> 01:05:05,898

Courtland Perry: I know that that upset

me personally because we had just gone

: 1104

01:05:05,898 --> 01:05:10,338

through, I mean, I, I, I wasn't even a

victim in this case and that upset me,

: 1105

01:05:10,778 --> 01:05:16,868

because it just seemed so, apart from

the fact that it just seemed so false

: 1106

01:05:16,918 --> 01:05:21,328

And clearly he said it just

to try to garner sympathy, it

: 1107

01:05:21,328 --> 01:05:24,928

missed the mark entirely too, as

to what it was supposed to be.

: 1108

01:05:25,408 --> 01:05:29,668

And especially after the judge had

listened to three weeks of testimony

: 1109

01:05:29,718 --> 01:05:35,508

from the state proving that he is a

liar over and over and over again.

: 1110

01:05:36,078 --> 01:05:40,668

Um, to hear him say that was just,

it kind of honestly astounded me.

: 1111

01:05:42,718 --> 01:05:49,258

DrG: I got the biggest goosebumps when the

judge started talking and made the comment

: 1112

01:05:49,318 --> 01:05:52,798

about he, it wasn't a pebble into water.

: 1113

01:05:53,008 --> 01:05:56,428

He threw bricks, 18 bricks into the water.

: 1114

01:05:56,938 --> 01:06:00,088

And I think that was the first

time that I, that I started to

: 1115

01:06:00,088 --> 01:06:02,398

realize this is gonna happen.

: 1116

01:06:02,798 --> 01:06:04,688

Courtland Perry: Missy and I, prior

to that hearing, had been talking

: 1117

01:06:04,688 --> 01:06:09,308

about it and going over and over

again on was he gonna get prison time?

: 1118

01:06:09,308 --> 01:06:10,628

How much prison time?

: 1119

01:06:11,078 --> 01:06:14,288

And even up until that point,

we, I, I at least I wasn't

: 1120

01:06:14,438 --> 01:06:15,878

certain one way or the other.

: 1121

01:06:15,968 --> 01:06:17,588

I had my feelings.

: 1122

01:06:17,588 --> 01:06:19,733

I thought he was gonna

get prison time, but I, I.

: 1123

01:06:19,853 --> 01:06:20,453

You never know.

: 1124

01:06:20,453 --> 01:06:21,773

Sometimes things happen.

: 1125

01:06:22,223 --> 01:06:26,033

Um, and when he said that, I, I kind of

looked at Missy and I was like, that's

: 1126

01:06:26,303 --> 01:06:28,523

that's a pretty good way to start this.

: 1127

01:06:29,396 --> 01:06:29,397

Hon. Judge Hogan:

: 1128

01:06:29,397 --> 01:06:30,866

A lot of words have been spoken.

: 1129

01:06:30,986 --> 01:06:34,766

Uh, I've thought about what I wanted

to say, and I've come to the conclusion

: 1130

01:06:34,766 --> 01:06:36,896

that I'm not gonna say very much at all.

: 1131

01:06:37,706 --> 01:06:42,806

Uh, I'll simply say this, I, I have

sentenced any number of people in the

: 1132

01:06:42,836 --> 01:06:45,236

20 plus years that I have been a judge.

: 1133

01:06:45,866 --> 01:06:49,106

And there are oftentimes when

I, I listen to the victims and

: 1134

01:06:49,106 --> 01:06:50,876

I see the defendant listening.

: 1135

01:06:51,536 --> 01:06:53,306

All of it is talked about.

: 1136

01:06:53,756 --> 01:06:58,826

Uh, I I look at the defendant and I

say, you know, when you throw the pebble

: 1137

01:06:58,826 --> 01:07:03,926

into the pond, you, you just really

don't think about all the ripples that

: 1138

01:07:03,926 --> 01:07:05,966

come out from the pebble in the pond.

: 1139

01:07:06,386 --> 01:07:10,796

And those ripples go in every direction,

and you don't account for 'em.

: 1140

01:07:12,146 --> 01:07:12,671

Well, Mr.

: 1141

01:07:12,671 --> 01:07:17,036

Baldwin, you, you've thrown

about 18 bricks in the pond.

: 1142

01:07:18,063 --> 01:07:21,903

So I have to think about the purposes

and principles of sentencing.

: 1143

01:07:22,143 --> 01:07:25,533

Uh, I need to protect the

public from future crime.

: 1144

01:07:26,133 --> 01:07:28,353

And, and not just by you.

: 1145

01:07:29,253 --> 01:07:32,733

I mean, if I had a crystal ball and

could see that you'd walk out and never

: 1146

01:07:32,733 --> 01:07:36,783

do anything wrong again, it wouldn't

change the fact that I'm supposed to

: 1147

01:07:36,783 --> 01:07:43,503

figure out what all of this, what, what

this effect will have upon other people.

: 1148

01:07:44,170 --> 01:07:45,400

In a mighty way.

: 1149

01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:51,310

You created all of this with all of this

social media, uh, all of your presence

: 1150

01:07:51,310 --> 01:07:58,850

out there, all over in the state of

Ohio, in this nation, around the world.

: 1151

01:07:59,346 --> 01:08:02,106

There, there are people that know of you.

: 1152

01:08:02,841 --> 01:08:04,881

They know what these allegations are.

: 1153

01:08:05,851 --> 01:08:08,851

If they have even an rudimentary

understanding of what went on

: 1154

01:08:08,851 --> 01:08:13,141

here, they, they gotta realize

that if they manipulate, they

: 1155

01:08:13,141 --> 01:08:14,341

can develop a gravy train.

: 1156

01:08:15,961 --> 01:08:19,261

And, and I think that I have to

be mindful that there should be a

: 1157

01:08:19,261 --> 01:08:24,600

consequence that would make them stop

and say, boy, that ain't worth it.

: 1158

01:08:25,470 --> 01:08:26,281

Just not worth it.

: 1159

01:08:26,935 --> 01:08:31,375

So I've considered all the, uh,

purposes and principles of sentencing.

: 1160

01:08:32,455 --> 01:08:35,934

Uh, I then am told I need to look

at what makes things more serious.

: 1161

01:08:36,475 --> 01:08:37,000

And Mr.

: 1162

01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:42,692

Baldwin, I don't know that I have ever

had a case in all these years where so

: 1163

01:08:42,692 --> 01:08:49,801

many factors of more serious are checked

off that, that there's only one, two.

: 1164

01:08:52,067 --> 01:08:55,907

Three out of nine that

aren't a factor here.

: 1165

01:08:56,567 --> 01:09:01,607

Uh, The victim of the offense suffered

psychological or economic harm.

: 1166

01:09:02,176 --> 01:09:04,216

I don't think I need to say

another word about that.

: 1167

01:09:04,216 --> 01:09:09,267

I, uh, The offender held a public office

or position of trust in the community

: 1168

01:09:10,107 --> 01:09:16,297

and the offense related to that office or

position, you were the humane agent here.

: 1169

01:09:16,716 --> 01:09:19,596

You represented yourself to be that.

: 1170

01:09:19,807 --> 01:09:24,947

That carried certain gravitas and

it allowed you to do what you did.

: 1171

01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:31,190

Number four, The offender's occupation,

profession, obliged the offender to

: 1172

01:09:31,190 --> 01:09:36,890

prevent the offense or to bring others,

committing the offense to justice.

: 1173

01:09:38,180 --> 01:09:40,460

I don't know that I need to

say anything more on that.

: 1174

01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:45,890

That your position was used

to facilitate the offense.

: 1175

01:09:46,551 --> 01:09:51,201

Your relationship with the

victims facilitated the offense.

: 1176

01:09:52,731 --> 01:09:54,471

All of those factors are present here.

: 1177

01:09:55,259 --> 01:09:58,109

Your counsel argued that

there's substantial grounds

: 1178

01:09:58,109 --> 01:09:59,579

to mitigate your conduct.

: 1179

01:10:00,089 --> 01:10:02,068

There are grounds to

mitigate your conduct.

: 1180

01:10:02,399 --> 01:10:06,599

I don't find them to be substantial, and

I have taken those into consideration.

: 1181

01:10:07,042 --> 01:10:12,112

Then I move on to, uh, Likely to commit

future crimes or not likely to commit.

: 1182

01:10:13,882 --> 01:10:15,442

You really don't have a prior record.

: 1183

01:10:15,682 --> 01:10:18,892

I mean, there's stuff there, but it's

nothing that amounts to what I would

: 1184

01:10:18,892 --> 01:10:21,467

consider determinative in this issue.

: 1185

01:10:22,150 --> 01:10:25,460

The one that I have marked

and, I, put a question mark.

: 1186

01:10:25,970 --> 01:10:30,410

It says, The offender shows no

genuine remorse for the offense.

: 1187

01:10:31,370 --> 01:10:35,000

And I have to tell you, you,

you, you have verbalized remorse.

: 1188

01:10:35,725 --> 01:10:39,440

I, I don't have a clue whether

you're telling me the truth or not.

: 1189

01:10:40,010 --> 01:10:44,540

I, if somebody asks me later on,

Hogan, what did you think of that?

: 1190

01:10:44,565 --> 01:10:46,190

I go, heck, I don't know.

: 1191

01:10:46,910 --> 01:10:52,620

I mean, I saw all this behavior

proven during the trial, and

: 1192

01:10:53,220 --> 01:10:55,320

then I hear this from you.

: 1193

01:10:55,550 --> 01:10:58,100

Um, I don't know.

: 1194

01:10:59,120 --> 01:10:59,720

I can't tell.

: 1195

01:11:00,324 --> 01:11:01,584

So I, I can't check.

: 1196

01:11:01,584 --> 01:11:05,274

This shows no genuine remorse, but I,

I can't check the one that says you

: 1197

01:11:05,274 --> 01:11:07,644

are remorseful because I don't know.

: 1198

01:11:08,425 --> 01:11:11,905

Okay, I'm probably repeating

myself, but just to be safe, uh,

: 1199

01:11:11,905 --> 01:11:14,905

I've considered the record the

oral statements, the pre-sentence

: 1200

01:11:14,905 --> 01:11:19,225

investigation, the victim impact

statements, the need for deterrence,

: 1201

01:11:19,255 --> 01:11:24,175

incapacitation, rehabilitation,

principles and purposes of sentencing.

: 1202

01:11:24,805 --> 01:11:29,380

And I've balanced the seriousness and the

recidivism factors as we just discussed.

: 1203

01:11:30,199 --> 01:11:31,729

Can count one.

: 1204

01:11:32,299 --> 01:11:33,794

Uh, it is a felony of the third degree.

: 1205

01:11:34,614 --> 01:11:37,889

Is the sentence of the court that you

spend 30 months with the Ohio Department

: 1206

01:11:37,889 --> 01:11:39,419

of Rehabilitation and Correction.

: 1207

01:11:40,709 --> 01:11:43,649

Count two is the telecommunications fraud.

: 1208

01:11:43,799 --> 01:11:44,579

Felony four.

: 1209

01:11:45,509 --> 01:11:46,479

Uh, has to do with Remi.

: 1210

01:11:47,639 --> 01:11:51,519

It is the sentence of the court

that you spend six months ODRC.

: 1211

01:11:52,929 --> 01:11:55,929

Count three is a tampering with records.

: 1212

01:11:56,679 --> 01:11:59,769

Sentence on count three is 12 months.

: 1213

01:11:59,769 --> 01:12:00,519

ODRC.

: 1214

01:12:02,169 --> 01:12:05,379

Counts five and six are

both tampering with records.

: 1215

01:12:05,469 --> 01:12:06,429

They merge.

: 1216

01:12:06,789 --> 01:12:09,439

It is, uh, 12 months ODRC.

: 1217

01:12:10,177 --> 01:12:13,097

Count eight is a cruelty to

animals that involves Remi.

: 1218

01:12:13,717 --> 01:12:17,257

Felony five sentence of six months, ODRC.

: 1219

01:12:18,877 --> 01:12:25,427

Count nine is a telecommunications

fraud, felony five, Remi six months ODRC.

: 1220

01:12:26,010 --> 01:12:32,730

Count 10 is uh, telecommunications fraud,

felony five involving Zach six months.

: 1221

01:12:32,730 --> 01:12:33,450

ODRC.

: 1222

01:12:34,860 --> 01:12:40,090

Count 11, telecommunications fraud,

felony five Gucci, six months.

: 1223

01:12:40,090 --> 01:12:40,780

ODRC.

: 1224

01:12:42,580 --> 01:12:47,130

Count 12, is a cruelty to

companion animals, felony five

: 1225

01:12:47,190 --> 01:12:50,760

involving Gucci six months, ODRC.

: 1226

01:12:51,622 --> 01:12:54,352

Count 13 is the grand

theft of the firearm.

: 1227

01:12:54,352 --> 01:12:56,122

It's a felony of the third degree.

: 1228

01:12:56,752 --> 01:13:01,672

Sentenced of the court nine

months, ODRC, Count 17.

: 1229

01:13:01,882 --> 01:13:06,832

Telecommunications fraud,

felony five, six months, ODRC.

: 1230

01:13:07,486 --> 01:13:08,476

Count 21.

: 1231

01:13:08,776 --> 01:13:14,236

Telecommunications fraud, uh, having

to do with shadow six months, ODRC.

: 1232

01:13:15,011 --> 01:13:16,121

Count 22.

: 1233

01:13:16,181 --> 01:13:22,361

Telecommunications fraud, felony five,

having to do with Titan six months.

: 1234

01:13:22,361 --> 01:13:23,441

ODRC.

: 1235

01:13:25,361 --> 01:13:26,681

Count 26.

: 1236

01:13:26,771 --> 01:13:31,871

Telecommunications fraud,

felony five, Beretta six months.

: 1237

01:13:31,871 --> 01:13:35,051

ODRC, count 28.

: 1238

01:13:35,501 --> 01:13:41,561

Uh, telecommunications fraud, felony five

having to do with Misty, uh, six months.

: 1239

01:13:41,561 --> 01:13:42,071

ODRC.

: 1240

01:13:42,693 --> 01:13:48,543

Count 37 is a telecommunications

fraud, felony five having to do

: 1241

01:13:48,543 --> 01:13:55,650

with Lulu six months ODRC count 38

telecommunications fraud, felony five

: 1242

01:13:55,650 --> 01:13:59,100

having to do with Zyla six months ODRC.

: 1243

01:13:59,833 --> 01:14:05,163

Count 39 is a grand theft felony

of the fourth degree, six months.

: 1244

01:14:05,163 --> 01:14:13,323

ODRC the sentence on, uh, count

40 is, uh, uh, nine months ODRC.

: 1245

01:14:14,015 --> 01:14:17,937

Count 41 is , grand theft, felony four.

: 1246

01:14:18,417 --> 01:14:19,167

Six months.

: 1247

01:14:19,167 --> 01:14:19,887

ODRC.

: 1248

01:14:20,506 --> 01:14:24,136

Count 42 is engaging in a

pattern of corrupt activity.

: 1249

01:14:24,586 --> 01:14:26,476

It is a felony of the first degree.

: 1250

01:14:27,086 --> 01:14:30,536

It's a sentence of the court that

you spend four years with ODRC

: 1251

01:14:31,447 --> 01:14:37,717

counts 45 through 53 are all,

uh, cruelty to companion animals,

: 1252

01:14:37,747 --> 01:14:39,307

felonies of the fifth degree.

: 1253

01:14:40,462 --> 01:14:43,462

Count 45 involves Titan.

: 1254

01:14:44,142 --> 01:14:45,102

Six months.

: 1255

01:14:46,092 --> 01:14:49,182

46 involves Beretta Six months.

: 1256

01:14:49,992 --> 01:14:51,972

47 involves Misty.

: 1257

01:14:52,212 --> 01:14:53,142

Six months.

: 1258

01:14:53,922 --> 01:14:56,052

48 involves Misty again.

: 1259

01:14:56,112 --> 01:14:57,042

Six months.

: 1260

01:14:57,912 --> 01:15:00,612

Count 49 involves Roxy.

: 1261

01:15:00,732 --> 01:15:01,692

Six months.

: 1262

01:15:02,472 --> 01:15:04,602

Count 50 involves Romeo.

: 1263

01:15:04,842 --> 01:15:05,862

Six months.

: 1264

01:15:06,672 --> 01:15:09,252

Count 51 involves Cheyenne.

: 1265

01:15:09,882 --> 01:15:10,842

Six months.

: 1266

01:15:11,412 --> 01:15:13,542

52, again Cheyenne.

: 1267

01:15:13,662 --> 01:15:14,622

Six months.

: 1268

01:15:15,072 --> 01:15:19,002

Finally, 53, Peewee of six months.

: 1269

01:15:20,077 --> 01:15:24,187

The sentences for all those counts

that were previously announced amount

: 1270

01:15:24,187 --> 01:15:31,056

to 186 months, that is, uh, 15 and a

half years in prison Uh, as far as the

: 1271

01:15:31,161 --> 01:15:35,361

consecutive sentences are concerned,

the court finds that the shortest prison

: 1272

01:15:35,361 --> 01:15:39,591

term would demean the seriousness of the

offense and would not protect the public.

: 1273

01:15:40,221 --> 01:15:44,841

The court further finds that consecutive

sentences are necessary to protect the

: 1274

01:15:44,841 --> 01:15:49,761

public from future crime and to punish

the defendant, and that consecutive

: 1275

01:15:49,761 --> 01:15:53,751

sentences are not disproportionate

to the seriousness of the defendant's

: 1276

01:15:53,751 --> 01:15:57,741

conduct, uh, into the danger the

defendant poses to the public.

: 1277

01:15:58,451 --> 01:16:00,191

Melissa Chase: I think

it was what we hoped for.

: 1278

01:16:00,221 --> 01:16:03,971

Um, it, it, it followed, I,

I guess time-wise, that was

: 1279

01:16:03,971 --> 01:16:05,531

what our recommendation was.

: 1280

01:16:05,921 --> 01:16:09,431

When Cortland and I talked about it,

we had some really specific thoughts.

: 1281

01:16:09,491 --> 01:16:16,541

Um, primarily we wanted him to have a

consequence for each one of the animals

: 1282

01:16:16,721 --> 01:16:21,281

that he was found guilty of, you know,

the offenses, uh, relating to them.

: 1283

01:16:21,491 --> 01:16:24,341

We wanted every animal to be represented.

: 1284

01:16:24,911 --> 01:16:26,411

Courtland Perry: Yeah, he

met our recommendations.

: 1285

01:16:26,411 --> 01:16:29,291

Just the timeline was a little

different, but the ultimate

: 1286

01:16:29,291 --> 01:16:31,211

time was what we had asked for.

: 1287

01:16:32,811 --> 01:16:35,961

Melissa Chase: He's at Richland

Correctional Institution.

: 1288

01:16:36,061 --> 01:16:36,811

Courtland Perry: Richland County.

: 1289

01:16:36,871 --> 01:16:37,591

Mansfield.

: 1290

01:16:37,591 --> 01:16:37,592

Mansfield,

: 1291

01:16:37,861 --> 01:16:38,131

DrG: yeah.

: 1292

01:16:38,131 --> 01:16:38,701

Mansfield.

: 1293

01:16:39,147 --> 01:16:39,148

Hon. Judge Hogan:

: 1294

01:16:39,148 --> 01:16:41,997

Now I like to learn something

new almost every day, and I'm

: 1295

01:16:41,997 --> 01:16:43,287

about to learn something new.

: 1296

01:16:43,647 --> 01:16:47,547

The state suggested that I

prohibit this man from being

: 1297

01:16:47,547 --> 01:16:50,127

involved with, I think pets.

: 1298

01:16:50,952 --> 01:16:53,592

Um, and I'm not familiar

with that statute.

: 1299

01:16:53,977 --> 01:16:56,172

Do, do you have the statute handy?

: 1300

01:16:57,252 --> 01:16:57,522

Yes.

: 1301

01:16:57,732 --> 01:16:58,692

Could I see it please?

: 1302

01:16:58,692 --> 01:16:58,782

Sure.

: 1303

01:17:00,359 --> 01:17:04,239

Your Honor, it is under, uh, 959.99

: 1304

01:17:04,289 --> 01:17:07,239

and it's subsection (E)(6)(a).

: 1305

01:17:07,969 --> 01:17:08,148

Okay.

: 1306

01:17:08,148 --> 01:17:11,749

The pertinent court of the statute says

that if the defendant has been convicted

: 1307

01:17:11,749 --> 01:17:17,299

of one of the offenses that I found him

guilty of, the court may prohibit or place

: 1308

01:17:17,299 --> 01:17:23,779

limitation on the person's ability to own

or care for any companion animals for a

: 1309

01:17:23,779 --> 01:17:26,568

specified or indefinite period of time.

: 1310

01:17:27,113 --> 01:17:31,553

I will put an order in this judgment entry

that the defendant is FOREVER barred from

: 1311

01:17:31,643 --> 01:17:33,743

owning any kind of a companion animal.

: 1312

01:17:34,587 --> 01:17:39,747

Melissa Chase: Many of these prisons

have a dog or animal rehabilitation

: 1313

01:17:39,747 --> 01:17:43,166

program, and the judge did not

want him to be able to work with

: 1314

01:17:43,166 --> 01:17:45,117

animals even while he was in prison.

: 1315

01:17:45,747 --> 01:17:49,407

DrG: One of the good things that came

about from this case, in my opinion,

: 1316

01:17:49,407 --> 01:17:54,297

is the precedent that it sets as

far as the importance of companion

: 1317

01:17:54,297 --> 01:17:59,157

animals in the state of Ohio and,

and how the community wants people

: 1318

01:17:59,157 --> 01:18:05,127

prosecuted for it, and how the, the

court saw the seriousness of this.

: 1319

01:18:05,127 --> 01:18:11,337

Courtland Perry: I, I think it's easy

for people to separate kind of the

: 1320

01:18:11,337 --> 01:18:15,477

human aspect from animal cases, and

they, they view it as well, it's,

: 1321

01:18:15,477 --> 01:18:17,517

it's just a dog or it's just a cat.

: 1322

01:18:18,027 --> 01:18:22,617

Um, clearly the court in this

case did not view it like that.

: 1323

01:18:22,617 --> 01:18:25,617

And I think that this sets a strong

precedent for that going forward,

: 1324

01:18:26,037 --> 01:18:30,327

uh, for other courts to, to point

to this and say, here's a perfect

: 1325

01:18:30,327 --> 01:18:34,707

example of why this isn't just a dog.

: 1326

01:18:34,767 --> 01:18:36,297

Why this isn't just a cat.

: 1327

01:18:38,307 --> 01:18:41,397

Litsa Kargakos: We got, from the

day I spoke up about Steffen,

: 1328

01:18:42,357 --> 01:18:46,047

it started, it started, and even

after he got indicted, there were

: 1329

01:18:46,047 --> 01:18:47,907

people that still stuck up for him.

: 1330

01:18:47,907 --> 01:18:51,147

And I was like, how could you

possibly stick up for him?

: 1331

01:18:51,267 --> 01:18:55,827

Like you didn't even try to look into the

truth, you're just taking his word for it.

: 1332

01:18:55,827 --> 01:19:00,447

And even up until the end that he was,

you know, posting stuff that, oh, a

: 1333

01:19:00,447 --> 01:19:02,937

Brady violation, you know, this and that.

: 1334

01:19:03,237 --> 01:19:04,587

People were still defending him.

: 1335

01:19:04,617 --> 01:19:07,166

'cause people, I obviously wasn't

friends with him, but people were

: 1336

01:19:07,166 --> 01:19:10,137

sending me screenshots and I'm

like, are these people insane?

: 1337

01:19:10,587 --> 01:19:11,607

Like how?

: 1338

01:19:11,637 --> 01:19:12,267

How?

: 1339

01:19:12,747 --> 01:19:14,157

Get the evidence from the court.

: 1340

01:19:14,157 --> 01:19:17,097

You could have came to the hearings,

you could have seen the evidence.

: 1341

01:19:17,547 --> 01:19:19,407

How can you defend this person?

: 1342

01:19:20,337 --> 01:19:24,747

Whether you hate me, whether you

love me, take the humans out of it.

: 1343

01:19:25,587 --> 01:19:30,567

Just looking at the animals, in my

opinion, and I've always said this, if you

: 1344

01:19:30,567 --> 01:19:34,227

can hurt, and this ties into Steffen too,

with what's being opened up, you know,

: 1345

01:19:34,227 --> 01:19:37,587

with his prints on that missing girl,

whether he did it or not, I don't know.

: 1346

01:19:37,587 --> 01:19:42,837

But if you can hurt an innocent

animal like Remi, who did absolutely

: 1347

01:19:42,897 --> 01:19:47,517

nothing wrong to him, it's not like

this dog that attacked and mauled him.

: 1348

01:19:47,517 --> 01:19:51,897

And he was angry at the time and he

did this, that it was a reaction.

: 1349

01:19:52,377 --> 01:19:54,627

No, it, it was, it was just nothing.

: 1350

01:19:54,627 --> 01:19:56,547

It's just part of his

day and part of his life.

: 1351

01:19:56,547 --> 01:19:59,487

So you could hurt these innocent

animals who've done nothing.

: 1352

01:19:59,487 --> 01:20:03,177

What are you going to do to human

being who you feel has done you wrong?

: 1353

01:20:04,647 --> 01:20:07,287

It's there, there's no measure

of where it could stop.

: 1354

01:20:08,174 --> 01:20:11,144

DrG: Well, thank you very

much for, for talking to me

: 1355

01:20:11,144 --> 01:20:12,704

and for all this information.

: 1356

01:20:12,704 --> 01:20:14,773

Again, thank you very much

for everything that you did.

: 1357

01:20:15,164 --> 01:20:20,564

Um, and, you know, we'll, we'll see

what happens, but at least for now,

: 1358

01:20:20,564 --> 01:20:22,514

we can say that justice was served.

: 1359

01:20:23,264 --> 01:20:23,354

Melissa Chase: Mm-hmm.

: 1360

01:20:24,584 --> 01:20:25,273

Thank you, doctor.

: 1361

01:20:25,273 --> 01:20:27,914

We appreciate the, the, the

opportunity to talk about it.

: 1362

01:20:28,334 --> 01:20:28,544

Yep.

: 1363

01:20:28,604 --> 01:20:29,294

Courtland Perry: Thank you, doctor.

: 1364

01:20:30,254 --> 01:20:30,255

Dr. G:

: 1365

01:20:30,255 --> 01:20:31,124

Well, this is it.

: 1366

01:20:31,214 --> 01:20:32,384

This is the end of the journey.

: 1367

01:20:32,773 --> 01:20:33,224

And.

: 1368

01:20:33,648 --> 01:20:37,759

As I have mentioned multiple times

before, this is just a fraction

: 1369

01:20:37,879 --> 01:20:39,619

of all of the things that happen.

: 1370

01:20:39,648 --> 01:20:43,579

There is so much that there's

just not enough time in a podcast,

: 1371

01:20:43,579 --> 01:20:46,909

in a video, in anything to go

over all the different things.

: 1372

01:20:47,209 --> 01:20:52,249

But I'm hoping that the, the guests

and myself have been able to give

: 1373

01:20:52,249 --> 01:20:56,869

you enough information to educate

you on all of the things that

: 1374

01:20:56,869 --> 01:20:58,724

he did, not just so that we know

: 1375

01:21:00,034 --> 01:21:04,023

why he was held responsible for his

actions, but that also, hopefully

: 1376

01:21:04,023 --> 01:21:09,544

we can, you know, move the legal

system forward and hold more people

: 1377

01:21:09,544 --> 01:21:11,884

accountable because animals do matter.

: 1378

01:21:12,304 --> 01:21:16,594

And these people that take advantage

of animals and abuse them, it,

: 1379

01:21:17,014 --> 01:21:18,184

you know, we know about the link.

: 1380

01:21:18,189 --> 01:21:20,824

We know that they can

abuse humans as well.

: 1381

01:21:21,124 --> 01:21:22,714

So we're not safe with them.

: 1382

01:21:23,294 --> 01:21:26,114

Thank you so much for being here.

: 1383

01:21:26,414 --> 01:21:29,654

And as always, thank you for

listening and thank you for caring.

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