Tom Pepperdine interviews the #1 New York Times-bestselling author of the Book of Tea duology, Judy I. Lin, about her writing process. Judy discusses her approach to world building, the benefit of listening to music whilst writing, and why her best motivator is guilt.

Judy's website is here: https://judyilin.com/

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Hello, and welcome to The Real Writing Process, the show that finds

out how authors do exactly what they do.

I'm your host Tom Pepperdine, and this week my guest is the number one New

York Times bestselling author, Judy I.

Lynn.

Judy is most well known for her book of tea duology, but has

also had great success with her book Song of the Six Realms, that

was released earlier this year.

This interview actually took place in October, 2022 whilst Judy was in the

middle of writing Song of the Six Realms.

So it's a fascinating look behind the scenes as she was writing that book.

It was also a couple of weeks before I got really sick and had

to take most of 2023 to recover.

So it's been a bit weird for me, uh, hearing how I was back then.

Anyway, it's a great interview and a great insight into the writing

process of a wonderful writer.

So here we go.

I'm here with Judy I.

Lin.

Judy, hello.

Hello, happy to be here.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's wonderful that you're here.

And my first question, as always, what are we drinking?

I'm drinking Taiwanese red oolong tea today.

And so it's a little bit of a different type of oolong because it's.

It's kind of looks like a black tea but tastes like a oolong.

It's one of those experimental teas that Taiwan comes up with from time to time.

No, I, I've, I've got oolong myself and, uh, I must admit, I, I think this

is the first time I've, I've drunk it and it definitely has its own unique flavor.

Um, and when I was initially researching it, it's between green and black teas.

I'm not sure if that's a, a very layman's term.

How would you describe oolong?

No, I think that's pretty accurate.

It's between, it's not as light and kind of grassy as a green, but it's not

as kind of rich and strong as a black tea, so it is a nice in between flavor.

Mm hmm.

And is this your regular writing drink?

Um, during the winter for sure, I drink a lot of tea, but during the

summer, I drink a lot of iced coffee.

So it's kind of coffee and tea are still my both of my go to's.

I guess we're in the transition period now in fall.

Um, so, okay.

And is this red oolong new for you?

Or is this a, an old favorite?

I think it's fairly new tea that's come out in the past couple

of years, but, um, yeah, but I drink it for a little while now.

I really like it.

Nice.

And where I'm speaking to you now, is this your office?

Is this, uh, your writing desk?

I actually just got a new office.

I've kind of reorganized my, my room a bit.

So yeah, this is my new office in my living room now, I guess.

Nice.

And so how long has this been your writing setup?

I'm actually just trying it out in like the past week, so this is really new.

Yeah, I was writing on my, like my recliner in the family room, but

that wasn't working out for me.

So that's why I actually have a proper desk

now.

So, so you're a laptop writer?

Yes.

Yeah.

You use a Microsoft Surface cause it's just easy to cart

around from room to room.

Yeah.

And is that one of the tablet ones that it has like kind of like free hand

writing that can then be going into text or is it just a traditional keyboard?

I think you can do both, but I usually just type on the keyboard.

That's, that's my, my thing.

Yeah.

And, are you a morning writer?

Is it just, when the kids at school, when you've got time or is it what

time of day do you find you write best?

so currently because I'm on home maternity leave with my baby, so it's,

um, writing during naptimes and writing, yeah, when, when she's asleep at night.

And I also have an older daughter too.

So when she's, yeah, home from school, I mean, we have to keep the child alive.

So it's usually when they're both asleep and then I, yeah, I

write for a couple hours after

Okay.

Well, it's good that you could get a few hours, you know, an uninterrupted

break, but, uh, yeah, that must be challenging, all those commitments.

Going into your actual like planning, I really interested, do you, Generally

with your stories, uh, find that you focus on the character first, or is

it the world that you're developing?

Uh, or is there like a specific scenario or an item, that

you, you want to write about.

How do your ideas tend to develop and you go, I think this is actually

something, a story I want to tell?

Because I write fantasy, I really have to know the world first.

I need to know the world kind of my characters are

inhabiting and walking through.

My goal is to make the reader feel really immersed in the world like

it could possibly be something real um, that they can one day travel to.

Um, so that, that's my aim.

So I, I do a lot of research first into the planning of the world.

Like what time period am I inspired by?

And a lot of the, the day to day lives of the people of that time time period

and historical setting that I am drawing most of my inspiration from.

So that is definitely what I focus on.

My character work comes way after.

Okay.

Oh, that's, that's really interesting.

That's cool.

And, uh, with that, are you someone who likes to draw maps and have little

index cards and like sort of post its everywhere, or is it all very

organized in folders on your computer and just little word documents?

Um, it is scattered everywhere.

So I have notebooks where I kind of scribble my brainstorming

and I draw very quickly.

Very ugly maps in them.

And then I also have bookmarks where I just throw everything into one

folder when I find something that I'm interested in on the computer.

And then I also move everything because I write on Scrivener, so then I pop

everything into different folders on Scrivener too if there's something

in particular that actually, I find that will make it into the book.

So it's kind of in these little pockets of places that I tuck things into randomly,

and then eventually I'll pull them all together into a reference document.

Nice.

And at what point you, when you are developing this world, you've, you,

so you've got your time period, and you've understanding the socioeconomic

sort of, uh, cultural aspects of the world that you are creating.

Is it whilst doing that, organically the characters start to populate it?

Or is it that there's a kind of a point where you go, okay, this is great.

But I need to start thinking of the characters now.

Is it a conscious leap to start thinking of characters or is it organically,

uh, evolved through the world building?

I think at the beginning, I might have like a sentence or two of the

story that I want to tell in this world.

So I might have something really basic.

so then I keep that in mind as I'm researching so that I know

the general areas of possibly where the story could develop.

And then after I have a better idea of the world, that's when I expand on the story.

But then like you said, there's a point where you have to stop researching

actually work on the story itself.

so I, I then go and I work on expanding that one sentence, two sentences to

the paragraph and then to an outline.

But I, I'm also still researching alongside that to kind of try and

figure out, okay, where does this fit in and, and where, where can my

character go when keeping in mind what I've discovered from my research.

So it is very interactive how the two parts, they come together.

I won't be going into spoiler territory, but just in general terms,

what you're working on at the moment, have you found a website, which is suddenly

becoming integral to the research or a book or some resource that's really

central to your research at the moment?

so my current work is, a gothic inspired, um, story.

It's still a fantasy story, but it's about a musician.

So, and then this, she plays an instrument, it's called a guqin,

which is, um, kind of like a Chinese scissor, but a lot more simplified.

So because of qin music in, um, imperial China, it's very the music

is a lot of times based on poetry too and like historical figures and

just a lot of those backgrounds.

So there is a website that I've been referencing a lot where it, it has

translations of these historical texts and the poems and also it just goes

into detail a lot about these stories.

And then the person is also a Guqin player.

So then you can actually listen to the music as you're reading about the poems.

So I've been spending a lot of time on this website.

So really interesting how just all these different components of the work

that result in what is still carried over and played in the modern times.

Yeah, and, you know, being able to listen to, uh, people playing that

instrument and the songs associated with that instrument in the past, has

that informed the story development?

We kind of thinking going in a certain way, then you listened to the music and

went, Oh, actually, no, this has inspired me to kind of take it on another route.

Yeah, yes, for sure.

particular poem.

So that's currently what I'm playing around with, and it's always one

of the more e enjoyable parts of writing this story for me is being

able to pull those inspirations.

And I did that a lot with my, my first, series as well.

but of course in terms of, um, tea, like all the, the interesting

details I found about tea.

And then as I was writing, I was thinking, oh, that, that might be an interesting way

to incorporate that into the, the book.

So it's, uh, yeah, that's definitely part of my writing process.

And you said when you start world building, you really want

to be immersive for the reader.

When you're writing the story, is it important for you to keep

track of the sense of place?

do you have to almost have like a visual map of where

characters are at any one time?

And are you having to redraw the map to fit the story?

Or do you sometimes find actually developing the worlds and having a

finite physical space is actually a good restriction on the story and you actually

want to fit the story to the world that you've already created, or will you bend

the world if the narrative needs it?

So I learned from writing my first book that it's good to have a drawn map.

Because I didn't have that the first time.

So this time I was like, I'm going to draw a map.

Because most of my story right now is set in a manor in the mountains.

So it's pretty straightforward to label like these are the gardens and

this is where the residences are.

So that's been helpful to have that to reference to.

And it is in my notebook, so then I then I can just pull it out

instead of having to Flip through my many folders on my computer.

And then another thing I learned too is, sometimes I'll, when I'm drafting,

I'll just randomly make up a name and then throw it in there and then forget.

And then having to go back and check, okay, what did I name this place?

So that's what I'm finding helpful.

Having the map is I I'll remember, okay, I've already named this place.

I'm going to write down the name and then I can go back and be like, okay, they

return to this place at a later date.

And with naming, actually, I listened to your interview with Joan

He, uh, about, uh, the challenges of having Eastern names written in

Western and making sure that there's no connotations to the name accidentally,

in either Chinese or English.

But also sometimes you want to have some subtext and meaning.

how have you found naming your characters, has it been a challenge

again, or does it feel like it's getting easier the more you do it?

I feel like it's always a challenge because whichever way you choose, you

miss out on the representations of and the connotations of it in either language.

So it is still working on a balance between the two.

But I always like to, and I will definitely still have a glossary for this

project, just so people who are able to read Chinese, they can see what the names

are, and then also the pronunciation, I think is important as well.

Because I always appreciate that in any book that I read.

Because sometimes you read the name and then it sounds a certain way in your

head and then flip to the pronunciation guide, you're like, wow, that's like

completely off base of how it sounds.

So that is something I'd like to include just so, yeah, if readers

are interested, they can have that.

Yeah, i, I've always found that especially with fantasy, I think.

Because a lot the names are non standard to modern names.

And yeah, so people can decide to pronounce it however

they want in their heads.

And then you were discussing a Favorite book of you and a friend.

And then they say a character's name in a completely different way, and they're

like, oh, am I wrong or they're wrong?

And then it's like, we're gonna have to by the audio book now.

Um, but yeah, sometimes they can be challenges with audio books.

Were you involved with the audio books with your previous series?

Mm-Hmm.

Yes, yeah.

And so they were able to provide, um, the narrators.

They gave me like two or three that I can listen to how they pronounce

words and how they speak to see if they align with what I imagined

my narrator would be in my head.

And then they did contact me too, with some questions about

pronunciation, which I appreciated.

So there are certain terms that they were not quite sure how to pronounce.

then I was able to find audio clips and send it to them.

So, so that was really nice that they were willing to work with me on that.

Yeah, that's good to hear because that's not always the case.

I've heard some horror stories, um, but, uh, no, really pleased

that that's happened in this case.

Um, going back to your planning for a moment.

Obviously you really map out the world and then you go

through the story quite heavily.

Do you have a strong beginning, middle end, act structure outline before you

start your first draft, or would you say your first draft is where the shape of

the story really begins to take place?

effort, basically.

and, and that's how I usually sell my stories too, is on an outline.

So I don't write the entire book first and then see the response to that.

and I prefer this ways to have the outline so that my editor knows, because it's

easier to tweak things at that stage than to have the whole book written

and then having to go back and adjust.

So I do that, but then I also do, I would call a zero draft too.

So where I just kind of going off the outline where I basically

write out whatever comes to mind.

So it would be like snippets of dialogue, maybe descriptions here and

there, and then just move my characters through the various places and have

the events happen to them and then see how I feel about the story then.

And then that's where it gradually becomes a more expanded outline, basically is

my first draft, I guess you can say.

And it isn't until I finish or get pretty close to finishing that I

would actually start the real writing process where I'm thinking about

the words and working on what would become the text of the book, I guess.

Yeah.

And so once you've got your zero draft done and you're going through this

first draft, Is it quite a graft?

I guess with two young kids and fitting it around at home, does the first

complete draft flow quite, quickly, or can it be quite challenging?

I mean, I feel like you've got a lot of demands on your time.

So do you have any daily targets like this many hours or a minimum

word count or a page count?

I find it's really hard to set a word count just because, I'll feel

really guilty if I don't meet it.

So I try to just do like, if I can finish a chapter a day, basically.

If I'm really on deadline, that's what I I aim for.

But the drafting for me is the hardest part because I just

feel like I don't know anything.

I don't know what's happening.

And you're you're discovering things as you go.

But I prefer the revising part that, that flows along a lot smoother.

So it takes me a long time, I feel, to draft and to sort the story out before I'm

able to go back and work on it some more.

And clean it up to the way that I want to.

And it's because when I draft, I like to be really fully immersed in the story.

And because when drafting I usually have to look up a lot of things and go back

to my research and say, okay, there's this detail I wanted to incorporate,

there's this part, okay, or what was it that I wanted to pull in again.

So that's a lot of back and forth when I'm drafting to pull in those

details, and that really breaks the flow of the writing, unfortunately.

But that's, yeah, that's just what I'm, I'm used to right now.

Yeah, and I think it is common with a lot of writers that the first

version of the story is for you.

And it's just you telling the story to yourself and it can be very disjointed

and sometimes people change the tense, you know, from first person to third person,

so there can be lots that happened in the drafting, I totally understand that.

in fact, is that something that's happened to you?

Do you find that the narrative voice, like the perspective is quite

clear straight from the start, or has that been something that you've

changed through the drafting process?

I have changed it before, but usually it's earlier,

earlier on the process.

Because I find I usually play around at the beginning to see, okay, how

does this voice sound in my head?

Um, should I be in present or past tense?

And then making the decision that way.

But I usually try and write a little bit, like maybe a chapter or two first

to see how it sounds and how it feels.

So that, that is definitely part of the beginning part of working

on, on my story while drafting.

and you've only had the desk for a week, but are you drafting at the

moment or are you in a revising stage?

I'm still, still drafting.

I'm currently on deadline is due next week.

So I'm very, very, yeah, a little bit stressed out right now.

But, um, yeah, I just find that, yeah, sitting on the recliner,

I kind of tweaked my neck.

So I was like, okay, yeah, I have to do a proper desk.

And I'm trying out this, I got a sit stand desk.

So I'm going to try and like, see if maybe standing and typing for a

bit will be a bit more helpful to not hurting myself even further.

Have you found it easier to focus or is it just because it's new,

it's kind of taken a while to adjust?

Um, I, I, think it definitely will be more comfortable because

I'm, I do like to have certain things, like I have my music that I

need to play to get into the zone.

I have to have everything set up before I start writing, so when I figure

out kind of what my setup will be, I think it will be a lot more helpful

to really get into the flow and then not having to like fiddle with things

just sit down and start writing.

Yeah.

And, a question I often ask actually, is whether you'd need silence or music.

And obviously that you have a musician as a central character, um, are

you using music of the time period?

That's kind of evocative of the story, or do you just have a neutral

playlist of just kind of like white noise music that's easy to ignore,

but means you're not in silence?

Um, so it's, it's a bit of both.

So I have a master playlist that I throw everything that speaks to me

related to the story that I put it into.

But there are some recordings of the guqing in there.

So if I'm writing a certain scene where The character is playing the

instrument, I would go and look up that song and play it in the background.

So that helps me kind of describe how that song sounds and feels.

Um, but I also have a lot of just random songs that I throw in that maybe is

the particular mood that inspires me.

I, I like to have, um, music that also has like singing accompaniment to it.

Because a lot of times, um, I find instrumental music actually takes

me out of it, the story's heart.

I like to have Maybe the, the emotionality of the words as well,

the lyrics as well, in the background too, to help me with the story.

That's really interesting because often when I speak to

authors, it's the opposite.

That the words can take people out.

And they need instrumental because otherwise they find they're singing

along or they're writing the lyrics as part of the manuscript.

But yeah, the emotion that you get with a singer's voice.

Yeah, that can be really evocative.

I can totally get that.

That's really cool.

Um, also nice to hear that there are successful authors

who do go the other way.

So, uh, that's good to know.

And, um, so do you have a master playlist for all of your

books that you've released?

Was there a playlist for all of them or is it because music central to this one

that you decided to create a playlist?

I do have a playlist for each of my, books.

Because that's kind of one of the ways that I can focus.

So once I start building that list, that's where, when I'm going back to

the project And I need to, let's say, revise, I put on that playlist and then

it just brings me back to that moment of working on whichever project that I, I am.

So it, it's kind of nice in that way where the music kind of helps me focus too.

And then sometimes when I just hear that particular song, on, on the radio

or something, and I'm just reminded of, of that book that it's associated with.

That's cool.

And do you have, like public sharing or, you know, on any of these playlists,

cause I think readers and fans of these books, you know, sometimes

to, to listen to the music that, was around when the book was created, it's

almost like a listening soundtrack.

Um, do you have them on a blog or something?

I really should.

I keep saying that I need to put them on my website.

But, um, yeah, I'm going to work on that once I finish this deadline.

Yeah, that's definitely a post deadline.

Sorry, I'm just adding procrastination for you.

Um, and actually, well, I keyed in my own, uh, segue there.

Um, do you find, procrastination, Something you have to overcome?

Do you have any sort of techniques to say, stop researching, write the

story, or is it just an ongoing battle?

Yeah, I'm very deadline driven.

Because I, I just, I hate disappointing people.

So I feel like when I have a deadline there, that makes me

more motivated to, to continue.

So I guess it's like guilt that, that inspires me, which is terrible.

Yeah.

The best motivator is my guilt.

I do use when when it comes down to crunch time like I use the blocker on my phone.

I can't access any of those apps.

And then I also have the browser blocker too so then I will limit me

from the sites that I'm able to access.

So I do use some of those strategies to help me focus on, on just writing.

That's good.

And uh, you mentioned earlier, when you start drafting, it can be a real

challenge, of the creative process kick starting the inspiration.

Well, a lot of writers I speak to, we talk and discuss, uh, imposter

syndrome and those moments where you just feel, this is the story where I'm

gonna get found out that I can't write.

you know, this going to sell.

And, you know, it's a terrible story.

Why, why am I trying?

I've now just naturally assumed that all authors now seem to get that.

And so if that is something that you've experienced, uh, how do you overcome it?

Um, Huh, I feel like that's really hard.

And because when you're starting out with nothing, it's really easy to pick up a

book from the shelf and be like, wow, my writing is never going to be this good.

So, um, I try to keep in mind, like, it just needs to be good enough.

And it doesn't have to be perfect right out of the gate.

Because like I don't think for anyone any author is it's

perfect right out of the gate.

Even though it feels like in comparison of yourself to

everybody else that's the case.

But now that I have, like, I've worked with two books with my editor.

That I know that it's, it can be a collaborative process.

So it's not just me, like, toiling over my keyboard.

And then, um, having to figure things out on my own.

Like, she has really great suggestions and recommendations on how to maybe approach

the story differently or add something new that I may not have thought of before.

So knowing that I have that support It helps me for sure.

And I also have my agent too.

I know that if I'm ever stuck, um, I can always email her as

well and kind of talk it through.

And I also have a lot of supportive people as well.

Like my critique partners, They can always, I can always just message them

and connect that way and, and so now I feel like having that supportive

community as a writer is really important.

So I know I'm not going at it on my own.

Yeah.

And.

You've said earlier how revision is kind of like your favorite

part of the creative process.

And collaborating with an editor.

I mean, we always have the, the old adage writing is rewriting.

how do you revise and rewrite your work?

Is it once it comes back from the editor and you've got notes that

you write a completely new draft?

Because I know in Scrivener you can have that split screen and can

have your old draft on one level and your new draft on another.

Or do you just rework individual scenes and just work on the,

the small little like tweaks?

In the beginning, I usually go back and probably the first two or three

drafts, I will start from scratch and I'll just rewrite the whole story again.

And, um, and maybe like, cut and paste or add rephrase a few things from

the old draft and build off of that.

It's not until maybe the 2nd or 3rd round with my editor that I will go in and

work scene by scene and things around and not have to write everything again.

But for the first few times, definitely it is just rewriting over and over

again until I feel like I've gotten it.

Structure of story at least.

And the story that you're working on now, is it the same editor that you've

had for your other two books as well?

Yes.

Yeah.

It's the same editor.

Yeah.

Do you want to give them a shout out?

I'm always, you know, editors are the secret sauce, I feel.

Yes, yeah, my editor is Emily Settle, and yeah, she's, she's wonderful.

Can't praise editors enough, yeah.

That's it.

I feel, especially In recent times, that there's a lot of pressure on editors and

they, they kind of are the unsung heroes.

Because when you have a, an editor that really understands your writing.

it is a collaborative process like you said earlier.

So, yes, Emily.

Thank you for everything that you do.

And so once you've got your story, you know, sort of drafted through

and it's to a point that you feel, you know, it's the best in isolation.

Who does read it next?

Cause you sort of said you've got beta readers and it sounds like

you may have some people that you, you'd like to send your story to.

So are they other writers or are they just, uh, friends

who've known you a long time?

So my first reader is usually my sister because she she's the

one I feel most comfortable sending like just, I wrote this chapter.

Here you go.

And then she offers me encouragement in that way.

So that that's really nice.

But I find that with my deadlines, I I usually don't have time to

send like some of the earlier drafts to anybody to, to read for.

So usually like at my sister kind of helps me along as I'm writing

the beginning draft, and then I'll send that draft to my editor.

And then Once I do a like a round or two with my editor, then maybe I'll

get another set of eyes on it as well from one of my author friends.

So yeah.

And that was something that I actually, that used to scare me a lot.

because before, being, being published, it's like you, you have all the

time in the world to send it to people to review and then wait for

those notes to come back and go on.

But with, uh, writing under deadlines very challenging.

So I basically have to get comfortable with sending something that I'm not

happy with to my editor and be like, yeah, please, please don't fire me.

Yeah.

So with that, is your attitude to when you get the feedback from editors?

I know some people, it can be very disheartening to see like a ton

of notes, uh, and like, oh God, they're right, or no, they're wrong.

you know, have to go away and sulk for a bit and have a strong drink.

Um, what's your initial reaction when you get the manuscript back?

Um, I actually really like it because I read the notes.

I'm like, yes, I can fix this or I can, I have some direction to go off of.

So it doesn't, I mean, it's always sucks to have people say, oh,

this is confusing or this doesn't, Like this, not what you intended.

But then, I always like to approach it like this is helpful and

something that I can use to work on the story and we're all working

together to make the story stronger.

So that that's always what I keep in mind.

I'm going to go in and fix it and then once again doesn't

have to be 100 percent perfect.

Um, let's get it to a good point and then every round it will be better and better.

So it's always more hopeful for me.

but I do still sit with it a little bit and it usually takes me about a

week to mull over before I actually go into the, the manuscript again.

Okay.

No, that's great.

And Once it's all signed off and your project's finished.

Do you find that there's a sense of relief of like, we did it, it's done.

And it's like, it's off to get printed.

Or is it a period of grief where it's just like, you've spent all this time in this

world with these characters and it's like, the empty nest syndrome, like the children

have gone off and you've just got to leave them, to see how the world accepts them.

Um, what's your emotional state when, when it's all over?

That feeling actually didn't hit me until the books came out.

Is just because yeah, the first one, after I finished writing the first book

of my duology, I was working on the sequel, so I wasn't done with the world.

And then after I finished the sequel, then it was because of how close my two books

were released together, I had to basically go into the promo mode for the first book.

So it was a lot of things just back to back, and so it actually wasn't

until my, my sequel released in the US.

It was only until after the promo for the sequel kind of, slowed down that

it hit me that, Oh, I'm, I'm actually done with this story, I'm not going

to be back in that world again.

so it took a long time to get here, but now I'm once again,

deep in another project.

So I didn't last for very long because I have to be focussed on this next project.

And you mentioned obviously you've got deadlines and the pressure of that.

Also, New York times number one bestseller.

Yeah, that's, that's quite an achievement.

It's great that, you know, it's a great story.

It was a great book.

You know, I understand it, but yeah, sort of like straight out the gate,

you know, getting that response, that story resonating with people.

Now that you're working on a separate project, do you feel

a lot of pressure with this?

Is this like the tricky second act?

Because that was a duology, does this feel like, okay, well, I'm

trying something different now.

And what's that pressure like and how are you dealing with that?

It is, it's quite terrifying to be honest, because once again, like,

I don't want to disappoint anyone.

But I also want to tell my story my own way.

And that that was how I approached my first, the book of tea duology,

is that I wanted to tell that story my way with, with all the details

from like my culture, my heritage, and all the things I love about tea.

and I put that into the books and I didn't know how people, would people like that?

And would people like that I put in a lot of references, yeah, to history

and to poetry and all those things.

And would they relate to that or would they be, would

that make them uncomfortable?

I don't know.

So with the reception, like, yeah, I was very surprised by, and of course, very

happy by the reception to, um, my duology.

So, that's what I aim to do with this next project.

it's still going to be fantasy, still gonna be focused on, on Chinese history.

Still a lot of the folklore and things that I love.

And a lot of things that I enjoy reading about.

So that, that will be my focus again.

So that's what drives me to, to my next quiz that I'm hoping that

readers will enjoy that as well.

Yeah, and at what sort of stage did the concept for

this, uh, musician based story.

Was there much of a gap from finishing the duology to coming up with the concept for

this, or was it already, you know, being mapped out whilst you're sort of writing?

Because I know sometimes authors will have that thing of like, there's ideas on

the back burner and it's just like, new idea, shush, I need to finish present,

present, project before I can say.

So I was just wondering how long has this idea been percolating

before you were able to work on it?

Was it before the duology or like halfway through, or was it something that you were

able to have a gap before you started it?

I was working on the Book of Tea duology, that this was actually one

of the ideas that I was working with.

But it was, it was like very bare bones.

And then I kind of scribbled it down and then it was once I had time

to work on it, then it came back.

And then I came back to it after I've had it in the draft or the finished

product, I guess, of the sequel.

Yeah.

So just what you were saying there about, you know, sort of

picking up the story with the duology.

Was it apparent from when you're mapping it out, this is more than one book?

was it clear it was going to be told over two books?

And then follow up with that, with your current project, does it look like

it's going to be a standalone book?

Or do you think it might be more than one book?

Um, so with the

I knew that it was going to be two books and it, cause

I when I sold the book it was kind of uh the proposal for the first

one and then a kind of paragraph pitch set around the competition, but I

knew that her story wasn't done yet.

So I knew that I wanted to spend more time in the world.

So that was my focus on Writing the story of the second book so

that we can have those adventures and continue that, that story.

But I felt like after those two books were done, it felt fairly complete.

So then in this project I'm working on, it is a standalone, because I

feel like the story arc is, is pretty much contained in the book, but I'm,

I mean, I'm always hopeful that I can write, I do have ideas for more stories

in this Universe that I've created.

So I hope hopefully I'll get to tell that story.

But right now it's Yeah, it's a pretty contained story.

And because.

It's all about Chinese folklore and the historic setting, are

they very different time periods?

Uh, this book to your other, or would you say that there may be

a shared universe potentially?

so they they're not in the same universe.

the magic and all the inspirations are of the folklore is Draws on

different types of mythology.

And so in the book of tea is inspired a lot by the song dynasty and then

in my new project is more focused on like the song of the six realms

is more focused on the Tung dynasty.

So it's different time period.

So a lot of the other fashions and the society and cultural interests.

I mean, of course, there's going to be some similarities of what is

interested by the people of that time.

But it will feel, there will be some things that are the same and

some things that are different.

But in writing the book of tea, it wasn't accurate.

Like there's a lot of things that I pulled from mythology and culture

and the folklore, but I've added kind of my own little twist to it.

So it's not 100 percent accurate, it's more inspired by, so it will be the same

for this project where it's inspired by, but not entirely yeah, accurate.

And I'll I think I'll wrap up because we've covered so much and

Judy, you've been absolutely fantastic and really loving your answers and

it's really clear, uh, really getting a sense of your writing process.

So thank you.

Um, I have two standard questions that I'd like to wrap up on.

Um, so it's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their

writing with each story that they write.

Was there anything in particular that you learned from the duology, either one

that you're now applying to this project?

Okay.

a little bit about in the world building aspect is just being more

prepared, where I won't have like snippets of random things scribbled every

which were in this notebook and that.

Like I'm definitely a lot more organized, and how I'm approaching my research

and making sure that I have my, my master document of the phrases and

names that I've set up that I can.

slot that in.

So that I'm prepared when I don't have to go back and dig for it again.

So that, that has been really helpful in the writing process so far.

So, uh, I think just more organized, being prepared, but also, um, yeah,

knowing that I'm I definitely feel more confident in knowing that it's not going

to be amazing at the beginning, so I just have to go through it, have to finish

writing, and then, yeah pick it up again.

Yeah.

I always forget who it's attributed to, but don't let perfection be the

enemy of good is a good quote that a few authors have quoted to me.

And they've said who it's been every time.

And then I always forget, but it's out there and regular listeners will know.

Um, and is there one, this might actually be the answer, but maybe, something else.

Uh, is there one piece of advice that you've been told or read that you find

yourself returning to, when you're writing, it could be that, uh, about

perfection, um, but is there something else that resonates with you that when

you were learning to become a writer that you're like, I need to remember that.

Yeah, no, I think it's just working through your discomfort that it's not how

you imagined it it will be in your head.

Like it's what results on paper initially is not the beautiful thing you kind of

wanted to be, but that it will get there.

That's something that always resonate with me is that all authors that

admire, when they talk about their process, eventually it will get there

to be, um, and that's what I aim for.

It's just, I can fix it later.

Yes, the, the, the story will, will be told in the way it needs to be told.

And that may not be the way that you originally thought, but it will be told.

Oh, well, uh, Judy I.

Lin, thank you so much for being my guest this week.

Thank you for having me.

That was, that was a lot of fun.

And that was the wonderful Judy Ai Lin.

Song of the Six Realms is out now, and Judy has also released her first

horror novel, The Dark Becomes Her, which has a contemporary setting,

but still mixes in Chinese and Taiwanese folklore to great effect.

Both books are widely available to buy, and are definitely worth checking out.

Also, they make excellent Christmas presents.

Uh, now you might be able to tell by my voice that my health is suffering yet

again, Um, but I'm determined to get one more episode out by the end of the year.

In the meantime, I'm wishing you all to have much better health

than me, And to keep writing.

Until the world ends.