UN Special Envoy for Yemen, Hans Grundberg pulls back the curtain on high-stakes mediation efforts in Yemen. He takes us inside tense negotiations in a frosty castle near Stockholm, recounts how he juggles the competing interests of international players at the UN Security Council, and explains how he steers through mounting regional crises.

Grundberg also underscores the strength of behind-the-scenes teamwork and points to real progress—like the 2022 nationwide truce, the reopening of Sanaa airport, and the release of

detainees. He shares candid insights into how he stays resilient and mentally grounded amid the pressure and unpredictability of armed conflict.

We’d love to hear from you! Please take a moment to share your thoughts in our 1-minute listener survey. https://0lotay3liy7.typeform.com/to/BszSNdLf

Initially, it wasn't direct negotiations. All the discussions were indirect, but they were at the same place. What was fascinating was the lunchroom, where it was initially divided in two, where you had one, the government side on one side and then Ansar Allah on the other. But as the days went on, that lunchroom became mix in the end, and you saw informal discussions taking place, and you saw relationship being built.

Welcome to the Mediator Studio, a podcast about peacemakers, bringing you stories from behind the scenes. I'm your host, Adam Cooper, and I'm at the Oslo Forum, where some of the world's leading figures in peacemaking have come to discuss resolving conflicts from Gaza to Ukraine, Myanmar, Syria, Sudan, and beyond. My guest today is a career diplomat from Sweden who worked in Jerusalem, Cairo, and Brussels before serving as the EU ambassador to Yemen from 2019 to 2021. From there, he moved to his current post, the United Nations Special Envoy for Yemen, where he's played a pivotal role in several major agreements in a war that has claimed tens of thousands of lives and driven millions into aid dependency. Hans Grundberg, welcome to the Mediator's Studio.

Thank you very much, Adam. Great to be here.

Let's start with how Yemen first entered into your consciousness. Originally, you were in the private sector and later joined the Swedish Foreign Ministry. Your father had also been a diplomat. One day, when you're moving into a new office in Brussels, there's a poster on the wall of Yemen that someone had left behind. Tell me about what piqued your curiosity.

It was an old Yemenia poster, so Yemenia Airlines, the national carrier of Yemen. My previous colleague had left that behind on the door when I closed the door the first time I saw the poster. The poster is just a desert and a camel, and it just says Yemenia. That's it. It gives an absolutely the most wrong picture of Yemen that you can ever imagine because Yemen is so much more than a desert and a camel. It's a truly fascinating country, but that was the first time I actually thought about what is this country and why is this poster appealing?

Then you decide to learn a bit more about the country beyond the superficial poster. Your first to Yemen was in 2017. You were a senior Swedish diplomat at this stage with a watching brief on the Gulf in the days when Yemen wasn't as big a focus as it is today, despite the fact that it's the most populous country on the Arabian Peninsula, one of the poorest in the world. And yet you decided to embark on what became a slightly unconventional diplomatic mission. Why did you decide to go and what happened that made it a little unconventional?

The colleagues and myself in the Swedish Foreign Ministry back then were looking at a conflict that had been then going on for what we thought was too long. We were also looking at it from the perspective that not enough diplomats actually visited the country. There had been an evacuation in 2015, and then since then, it had been fairly quiet. This was a mission to the government control side and decided that we wanted to go there and meet the persons that we were actually looking at. That led us to my first mission to Yemen, which was back in 2017.

How did you get there?

That was a bit of a challenge because I'm not particularly certain people wanted us there. We were supposed to go on a UN flight, but we were actually taken out of the manifest, which was probably a sign that somebody didn't want us to go.

Not exactly a welcome with open arms.

No, but then again, nobody told us that we weren't welcome. As long as nobody told us we weren't welcome, we decided that we still wanted to We had come all the way down to Djibouti, and we decided to then take a Djibouti airline ticket over to Aden, and we got there, and we were very well received. That was first of many excellent conversations with the Yemenis that began then.

What did you see when you arrived?

Aden back then, was a city that had recently, back in, I think it was in 2015, been subject to fairly heavy fighting. In 2017, the scars of those fighting were still very visible. The city wasn't really controlled by one force. It was divided into different forces trying to control the city. I can't say there was a safe city to visit, especially not for someone who hadn't been there before. But we were well received.

When you saw the reality of the ground in Yemen, what did you feel personally?

It's hard. I've been there several times, and what strikes me are several different things. One is the absolute poverty that needs to be addressed. There's a hardship that the population going through on a day-to-day basis. That hasn't changed. It's still one of the world's poorest country, and it's a country whose population is in need of support, but also not only direct support, but also support in developing their country to something that can actually generate wealth. That comes to the second point, and that is the strength that you feel when you meet Yemenis. I'm absolutely honest here. It is a fascinating country, and the Yemenis themselves are a fascinating population because they have a strength and a willingness that I have a difficulty finding elsewhere.

I want to move to 2018 and the start of your even deeper engagement with Yemen. There have been four years of war between the Yemeni government forces, backed by Saudi Arabia, and Ansar Allah, backed by Iran, commonly referred to as the Houthis. Ansar Allah had taken over the capital, Sanaa, and vast swathes of the country, including the poor city of Hodeidah, through which about 70% of the country's food, medicine, and imports flowed. Millions were facing acute food insecurity, with Yemen undergoing one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. At the time, you're head of the Gulf Division of the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs when UN-sponsored negotiations began in Stockholm in December 2018, which would lead to the signing of one of the landmark agreements in the war, the so-called Stockholm Agreement. And under this agreement, Ansar Allah rebels would withdraw from Hodeidah, handing over to the UN. As you witnessed and were part of those negotiations taking place, tell me about what lessons you drew from it, and also some of the key negotiators you met who you would later work with very intensively.

Those were fascinating two weeks in Stockholm. If anyone has been in Stockholm in the end of December, it's fairly dark.

It was in some castle outside of the city a little bit.

Exactly. It was far enough from Stockholm for the participants not to run away. You wanted them to stay and negotiate, which they did, and they did negotiate. Obviously, I wasn't leading the negotiations. I was more facilitating and witnessing what was going on. What's clear was the hard work of the UN team. Secondly, the necessity to have international backup. I witnessed ambassadors from the permanent members of the Security Council, but also from the region present and engaged in these negotiations, not directly, but following them and giving advice in a way that were helpful. But I also saw negotiations that ended up in agreements where I think the lessons learned from that is probably that you need to be careful about rushing into agreements just for the sake of an agreement, and that it's equally important to have something that is thought through and that is manageable on a more medium to long term.

Just in terms of the atmosphere there, what did you observe of the conflict parties, particularly at the beginning of the discussions? You talked about the frosty atmosphere outside it being December, but was it frosty inside the castle?

Initially, it wasn't direct negotiations. All the discussions were indirect, but they were at the same place. But what was fascinating in Stockholm was the lunchroom where it was initially divided in two, where you had one, the government side on one side and then Ansar Allah on the other. But as the days went on, that lunchroom became mixed in the end. You saw informal discussion relations taking place and you saw relationship being built that I think are critical if you want to achieve results in these type of situations. What I mean is that you can reach results to a certain degree by shuttle diplomacy or by indirect negotiations. But at a certain point, direct relationship between the parties that you're trying to mediate between are critical, and that was clear in Stockholm.

So peace forged over a salmon lunch.

Yes, and the other Swedish delicacies as well.

Later in 2019, you become the EU ambassador to Yemen. Paint a picture of what was happening in the country when you stepped into that role.

By the end of 2019, there were serious hopes that things could turn to the better, and that hope persisted up until early 2020. If you remember, January 2020 was a very difficult month for Yemen because that hope then was shattered when the escalation around Marib began, the frontline against Marib began back then.

Talk to me Now, before we reach that moment where the conflict became more challenging, those moments of brief optimism and what you tried to do as ambassador at the time to build on that, encourage that, and the people you met and the freedom that you had to meet with some of the conflict parties.

Being EU ambassador to Yemen, being UN envoy to Yemen, is a complete different type of job. When you're an EU ambassador to Yemen or a bilateral ambassador to Yemen, you represent interests, and I represented the European interest. But Furthermore, I also wasn't in the limelight, so to say. I wasn't the one responsible for negotiations. I was one who tried to help and to support the United Nations in its mediating role. But that meant that I had a liberty in meeting and in exchanging with interlocutors that I cannot always do with the same liberty in my current position. That meant that during those years, even two years as a EU ambassador, they were extremely beneficial because I could develop relationships that then would be important for my future work.

Let's move on to your role as UN Special Envoy in September 2021. The previous February, President Joe Biden announced his changes to US policy towards Yemen, including revoking Ansar Allah's designation as FTO, the so-called Foreign Terrorist Organisation designation, declaring an end to US support for the Saudi-led coalition's offensive operations, that the humanitarian crisis deepens and Ansar Allah continue to gain ground against the internationally recognised government forces. You have that as the backdrop when you started your work. Did you feel the weight of expectations from the international community as you took up your role?

Yeah, of course. But that you would do in any case. The point here is that when I began in September 2021. The Marib War that I mentioned earlier had been going on for almost two years, and it didn't seem to abate. It was just escalating. And Martin Griffiths, my predecessor, despite hard work, hadn't been able to shift the situation to the better. So while I think the pressure was high, I can't say that I felt that a lot of the members of the Security Council or others thought that things were going to change. That, I think, was an advantage because you could use that to lower expectations and over deliver. That is something that I think is really important.

Tell me about your first meetings with the conflict parties in your UN capacity.

Those were hard because the first meetings you have, they sound you out. Yeah, I've been meeting them as EU ambassador, but that's a different thing to come as UN envoy. Also, you have a complete new set of colleagues who are also looking at you and are wondering, is this new envoy someone we can rally behind?

When you say sound you out, what does that actually look like in the room?

It's a meeting where you start testing each other. First is polite, but then you will have meetings regardless of which side you talk to, they will see whether they can try you out in saying things that you will regret later, and also test you in terms of your resolve. You might be provoked. Then the question is how you react to that provocation. That is really hard.

How would you describe your personal style when faced with that provocation?

It's mixed, I think, because I'm a product of Swedish diplomacy. Swedish diplomacy is fairly polite. Swedish culture in itself is a culture where you don't need to raise your voice very much to be understood as unhappy. That can be done in just very slight degrees of changes. But I have also learned through my work and through my international experience that sometimes you need to be more direct and you need to be more outspoken if you really want to be understood. But being direct doesn't mean to be insolent. Being direct needs to be frank and straight. When that happens, you bounce the issue back to the other side. Then the person who has tried to provoke you will then have a choice whether he or she will want to back down or double down. Often, they back down because in the end, it's in their interest also to maintain a good relationship with the mediator.

Having met the conflict parties, seeing the situation on the ground, can you describe in simple terms for a listener who might not know Yemen well, what was your plan?

What you do in those circumstances where you see that the odds for success are not looking very favourably or in your favours, then you reverse engineer. What we did when I took up office was that we immediately went for a retreat with my colleagues that work on the substantive issues. We decided to work ourselves back from what you want to achieve and how do you get there. Then you try as realistically as possible to paint a way to get to that end goal. The most important thing there is to make sure that that end goal stays fixed regardless of how the development on the ground goes. When you have that long-term vision, then you can adapt yourself and you adapt your short-term strategy and your short-term tactics based on that long-term strategy. On the basis of that long-term strategy, you are then able to get the parties on board on that as well. That's also a critical element. You need to get to sound out the parties and make sure that they also agree with your vision. Once that happens, then you can start testing ideas with them in a better way.

The first part of 2022 saw Ansar Allah extend missile and drone attacks to the UAE. Coalition warplanes respond by pounding Yemen. Until this point, according to UN figures, 377,000 people had died, including those killed as a result of indirect causes, about 60% from hunger, a lack of health care, and unsafe water. But in April 2022, there's a two-month nationwide truce which was renewed twice, lasted six months in total. The parties agreed to hold all offensive military, air, ground, and maritime operations inside Yemen and across its borders. What made the parties, particularly Ansar Allah, accept this truce?

What happened back in April 2022 isn't just that we just showed up two weeks in advance and told them, this is what we want to do. Do you agree or not? The process getting there began in all earnest already back in December 2021. It took us four months of really hard negotiations and shuttle diplomacy to get there. The first little ray of light that came was a comment from one of the sides saying, we wouldn't mind if we headed in this direction. On the basis of that, we double-checked whether that was a credible comment or not. Once we felt that it was credible enough, we started setting out a plan to develop this into what then became the two months truce. The idea behind the two months truth was that it was a fairly big step that the parties were going to take. It was a huge step in a way. At that moment, you don't want to scare them to take that step because it's a really decisive step. You want to make it feel for the parties that these are steps that they can do and they can walk it back if they don't like it.

You give them the confidence that this is not huge, although we felt it was, and we felt this could be fairly big. Given the result, given the fact that that truce that was negotiated back in 2022, still now I'm touching wood somewhere because we're recording this in June 2025, is still de facto holding. Still today, the conflict inside Yemen has remained relatively stable. That shows that the step that they took back then was a fairly big one, but we didn't want them to feel it.

It's a really important lesson, this, and I'm curious in the moment when you're trying to encourage someone to take a step which feels daunting for them in that moment. When they are reluctant, maybe scared to do so because it diverges from how they've been behaving in the recent past, without wanting you to betray confidences of individual meetings, can you remember a moment of how you overcame that? I don't want to say resistance, but hesitation, shall we say, before they felt ready to commit to that truth.

It's not only the parties, you also have the international community that needs to be on board, and you have the region as well. A lot of people who are not looking at mediation on a day-to-day basis could possibly think that it's very much about negotiating between the parties. But it's a multi-dimensional effort where you need to bring in quite a number of more stakeholders than the fighting stakeholders themselves.

Did you feel that there were moments with the international community or those in the region when they were sceptical, and then you needed to work very hard?

Absolutely. That's my point, is that one of the difficulties was to bring the international community, the permanent members of the Security Council, on the same page. Let me remind you, February 2022 was a difficult year for the unity of the permanent members. It was when the tragedy in Ukraine began in all earnest. That put us in a situation where several permanent members of the Security Council didn't look eye to eye on quite a number of things. That meant that we had to fight to keep the P5 members, the permanent members united, which we succeeded. Then comes the situation on also getting the parties to accept some issues that they didn't to accept in the beginning. And the big question is, what can you actually promise? I can't promise them that this will work, but I can tell them to take a leap of courage in trusting me that I will assist them in making sure that this can work. And that, I think, is really the difference between promising lies and promising them support.

During your time as Envoy, the role of countries in the region around Yemen evolved quite a bit. I imagine that that can be a great asset to your work, but also make things challenging if you're not fully apprised of what others do. How do you bridge UN-led mediation with what others do diplomatically?

UN doesn't have a monopoly on mediation. You don't per se need the United Nations to do mediation, but you might want the UN to be involved because as we see countries change, administrations change, there are elections, priorities shift, and one country that has been assisting in conflict resolution might get different priorities, whereas the UN will always be there. If you do have the UN involved in one way or the other, you have a constant that can always be there and assist and at least be helpful. The necessity here is that all that are involved, put in the right direction. If that doesn't happen, then you can put the parties into a space where they will want to forum shop. They will want to look at whose mediator is the one that will give them the best options. You need to ensure that there is one accepted main mediator and that then can be supported by other countries, other persons who might be helpful.

In October 2022, around the time that more serious direct contacts began between the Saudis and Ansar Allah, you sensed an opening in the process and a message that was sent to you, something that could potentially change the dynamics of the negotiation consultations. Without asking you to portray any confidences, tell me how you took something uncertain and explored its possibilities.

There was a message being given to me about support from the region on trying to help out. As a mediator, you have two choices. Either you are defensive and you become greedy in your mediation role and you say, no, I'm the main mediator. Nobody can do this better than I can do, and you decline that support. Or you accept your limitations. We had just tried to negotiate an extension of the truce which didn't pass, and you look at what the other options you have. Then the question comes, do you trust the person or the entity or the stakeholder that comes with that or not. If you do, or if there is a sense of trust there, then I think the choice that you should do, which I did, is you move with that and you make sure that it plays into your vision on where you want things to head.

In terms of the trust you have in that partner in peace, how do you actually test it?

Well, you do that by triangulating all the time. It's all a game of information. You make sure that the information you get, you test it and you make sure that the information you get is the one. You should never actually lie in this business because once you lie, you erode trust. Once that trust is eroded, then your ability to move forward becomes very limited.

I'm just trying to imagine high pressure environment in which you have to judge these things about whether something which is uncertain is worth taking a risk on. I can imagine it must weigh very heavily on you.

I'm not completely alone. I might be the face of the mediation, but I do have colleagues who are also extremely talented, and they are helping me in those judgement calls. I'm not only sitting by myself asking myself these questions. I do sit with a small, tight group of colleagues whose judgement you trust, and then that helps you out.

Combating the myth of lead mediator being the only person driving a process forward.

That cannot be true. That doesn't exist. Yes, you need a leadership, but leadership doesn't mean that you don't have other talents within that group.

I want to move to some of the concrete results of your work and your team to highlight the impact on people's lives that mediation can have. I believe that you've done some work on opening up transport routes, which might sound prosaic, but it does have a personal impact. Can you give us a sense of it?

The Sanaa airport closed in 2015, and when I took over as envoy in 2021, it was still closed. One of the key elements of the negotiation for the troops was to seek a reopening for international flights from Sanaa, which would then facilitate quite a number of millions of Yemenis who, instead of flying from Sanaa, which they would be doing normally, had until then were forced to take cars down to Aden, which is a 10 hours drive, and then fly out of Aden. The mere fact of being able to fly out of the city or one additional city, which provides a sense of normalcy and a sense of normality which can be really changing for them. I remember one government representative who came up to me and quietly told me that he wanted to thank me, even though for the government, it was a difficult thing to accept, too, because they were concerned that reopening of the Sanaa airport was going to strengthen the Ansar Allah. But the fact that his wife could then, for the first time in 10 years, I think, fly to Sanaa and to be greeted by her sisters and her mother that she hadn't been seeing for 10 years.

He showed me the videos of that reunification as well, and he wanted to thank me for being part of making this possible. That also is just a small glimpse of a reality that has been taking place once while this airport has been open and while these agreements are being done.

In a similar vein, if mediation can lead to the release of those who were detained, it obviously has an enormous impact on those people, their families. The great benefit of it is that though it's a humanitarian mediation, it can still bear fruit when political talks are more challenging. Are there particular moments of that that you recall?

When you see prisoners being released, it's a fantastic thing because it often happens it's two sides releasing simultaneously. It's a huge thing for the families of those detained prisoners of wars, of these conflict-related detainees. There are moments like that which I have been witnessing where you've seen fathers being reunited with their children, which are deeply touching. We negotiate the release, and then the ICRC are helping us with the logistics in releasing these conflict-related detainees. Those moments of reunification are truly important in my work because it helps us understanding that what we do is real, and it helps us understand that the impact of the work that we're engaging on has a real meaning, and that is clear.

On the flip side, it must be very difficult indeed when you see people detained, as has happened to UN and international NGO staff, including last year and earlier this year. At a personal level, what is it like to engage with Ansar Allah when your colleagues are detained in Sanaa?

It's very hard, I have to say. I think that the fact that UN colleagues have been detained has been very hard for the UN to go through. But still, while that is the case, you also have a responsibility for the greater mission which needs to continue. You need to be able to separate these issues, and you need to be able to criticise and to pressure to seek the delivery of our colleagues. But that shouldn't stop you also from also supporting the greater efforts in getting Yemen into a space where we wanted to be.

What happens in Yemen obviously doesn't happen in a vacuum. We have to touch on the impact of October the seventh, 2023. Ansar Allah enter on the side of the Palestinians. How did these developments impact your work?

Back in late September, early October, we were thinking that we were actually we were pretty close to an agreement. We had been working hard and quietly, and there were other conflicts who had been taken the upper hand from a media point of view. There weren't that much attention on given to Yemen. That can be helpful as well because then it means that you can work quietly and push for results, which we had been doing. We thought just before the tragedy of the seventh of October and what then developed, we felt that we were extremely close. The events then clearly destabilised the region. The fact that then you saw an engagement from Ansar Allah into this matter meant that we gradually saw Yemen being drawn into that destabilisation. That clearly had an impact on our ability to continue the discussions that we were having. It's been very frustrating. It was. We were able in the beginning to shield the discussions and make continued progress until the end of the year. But then once you saw a direct confrontation confrontation between Ansar Allah and the United States, that the situation changed because then you entered into a situation where one of the parties that you're negotiating with was in direct military confrontation with a permanent member of the Security Council.

Then getting into an agreement becomes very complicated.

Because those dynamics change, do you then feel pressure to deal with issues related to international trade, security in the Red Sea, despite the fact that your mandate technically relates to Yemen only?

My mandate, which tells the Secretary General to use his good offices to put Yemen back on a political process. That's in simple terms what I need to do, get Yemen back into a real inclusive political process. That's a very broad mandate. Anything that impacts my ability to reach that goal will then have to be dealt with. It doesn't mean that I need to deal with it, but I need to factor that in. If one entity or one stakeholder, important stakeholder, doesn't want to move because of what is happening in the Red Sea, then the Red Sea becomes an issue.

I'd like to draw our conversation to a close and ask some broader questions reflecting on your time as a mediator. While a lot of your time is spent with the various conflict parties in Yemen, you also engage with civil society, women's groups who are often working on the front line of the conflict in the hope that a solution in Yemen will be an inclusive one. How do you build on the work of civil society to favour inclusion in the peace process? Do you ever worry about disappointing them?

Always. Sometimes I think I do because civil society is a key element if you want to be successful. I'm not only talking about women's groups in themselves, yes, but the broader civil society as well. Often, the results that you see while conflict is going on are often led by the civil society. Just a couple of weeks back, a critical road opened up in Yemen. It was thanks to the hard work of local civil society groups. Then I think one major challenge is how you make negotiations more inclusive. I haven't been in any negotiations or met any delegations that have not been fully men, only men in those delegations. How do you, despite that, make sure that you get a broader inclusive voice into those negotiations? We're trying to make use of that by bringing in experts that are more inclusive. But then I also think that there is a broader responsibility of the international community to uphold this question and to put it in the forefront.

You've talked a bit about the fear of disappointing others who are depending on you in one way or another and the pressures of being a mediator. When you became UN envoy, I'm sure many people would ask, can this person help provide a solution to a conflict which doesn't appear to be amenable to one? Particularly since October the seventh, your workload must be immense. We don't often talk about mental health in mediation enough. How do you maintain your own mental health?

The fact that your work description is very unclear and the expectations are huge and you're left with your own nightmares. I think there are different ways of handling it. Obviously, there are bad ways. You can overconsume things that you shouldn't be overconsuming in a way, and that's not very helpful. But you can also make sure that you're surrounded with people you trust and that you can have a healthy discussion with. But then you also need to upload yourself by doing things that are not related to the work at some given moment. I do that. I find my escapism on treadmills running. You need to find something where you are able to offload and decompress, which is not destructive. It's absolutely fundamental to do so. But in the end, human interaction with others as well is critical.

At those times when you might feel a bit low or pessimistic, are there Yemenis who you've met, which their image comes into your mind and you think, This is who I'm doing it for?

There is actually one memory that comes to mind and that really illustrates the essence of what we're doing and why we're doing it. That is, again, going back to the exchange of conflict-related detainees. An image that comes to mind was when the Arabic television, they zoomed in on this little girl, a 10-year-old girl who was holding her little brother. I think he wasn't more than five. They were well dressed. They had been dressed up and were waiting for their father to come out of this white plane with a Red Cross. The girl was really fixating on the stairs coming out of the plane. Then you start to see these men coming out, waving. They all, one by one, started coming out and started hugging their families. This little girl kept watching. At a certain point, her hope that she was going to see her father started winding down, and she started crying. Her brother, who held his sister hand, looked at her and started crying as well because he realised that this wasn't right. I was watching and I felt that this was a terrible moment where you see this hope of this little girl being teared to pieces.

Then the camera managed to catch the glimpse when she actually sees one of the last persons who exit the plane is her father. She sees him. You see how she wipes her tears and rans through everyone on the tarmac and into the arms of her father, still holding her little brother. They are both reunited with their father. It was a moment, also a defining moment for me, because it's a moment which, for me, explains why we're doing what we're doing.

On that touching note, there we must end. Hans Grundberg, thank you so much for being my guest in the Mediator Studio.

Thank you very much, Adam. Thanks.

That's it for this edition of the Mediator Studio. To get more episodes as they come out, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We always love to hear from you. If Hans' work in Yemen or the mediation lessons from his long experience have resonated with you, please get in touch via the listener survey in the show notes on our website, or do drop me a message on Twitter at Adam Talks Peace. The Mediator Studio is an Oslo Forum podcast brought to you by the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue and the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our managing editor is Christina Buchhold, and the producer is Chris Gunnes. Research for this episode was by Oscar Eschenbrenner. Big thanks also to Li BuiDoung for her support. I hope you'll join me for the next edition. Until then, from Losby God's in Norway, this is Adam Cooper saying goodbye, and thank you for listening.