Our chat with Robin Butler, Partner and Head of Impact at Sturgeon Capital is an all-round 101 on the reality of investing in emerging markets. We hear Robin's thoughts on a range of topics including why Sturgeon Capital are focusing on particular markets, the potential upside on investments, advice on how to structure a company in an emerging market and best practice to avoid local corruption entanglement.

Sturgeon Capital is a London-based VC investing in frontier and emerging market startups that are solving the key problems affecting the day to day lives of businesses and consumers. And Robin is at the helm of it all.

BWB is powered by Oury Clark

Have you ever walked into, um, glass full whack, like a perfect sheet of glass?

No.

I can't say I have, I did that in Japan.

You're drunk in this amazing restaurant where you're in.

I have never felt pain like it.

It was, and I had like a couple of whiskeys with the wife and I was thinking, this is the best night I would've paid and good money for full whack into my nose.

Us I'm unbelieving you Really, you really hidden it?

Full falls.

Yeah.

I was in, I was in agony for a, for 24 hours.

Um, okay, so here we go.

Hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

I am Andy Orian.

Alongside me is p.

Ster at my, I don't even get you.

That's a lot, right?

Oh, you know, I mean, I've only practiced it a million times.

And with today we are joined by, uh, we, today we are joined by Robin Butler.

Hello Robin.

Hi Andy.

How you doing?

Very good.

Robin is a partner and head of Impact at Sturgeon Capital, a London based VC investing in front.

An emerging market, startups that are solving the key problems affecting the day-to-day lives of businesses and consumers are exciting.

And Robin, let's just start with a question of what's keeping you up at night?

What, what's bothering you at the moment in the world, in my world, or a year after the invasion of invasion of Ukraine and, um, those effects, particularly in these emerging.

The impact on currency devaluation, rising price of oil, uh, inflation rates in each of these countries is, is putting a lot of pressure not only on the economies, but also uh, also on the societies.

Um, you pick out a country like Pakistan in particular, not only have they had the economic challenges, but they had the floods last year and sort of August, September, uh, displaced, tens of tens of millions of people.

So those are, those are some of the things that are, that are keeping me up at night at the moment, those sort of ex-Soviet.

Territories, countries?

Are they nervous?

Does this make them nervous?

Yeah, it does make them nervous.

I mean, it's, you don't have to look far.

Georgia still has two, two parts of its country that is occupied by Russia and has been since 2008.

Kazakhstan gets pretty nervous.

Uh, a while ago, I think it was in the early two thousands, Putin made a comment along the lines that he didn't see Kazakhstan as being a real country that made the Kazakh pretty nervous.

Well, if Putin says it, you would be like, Ely terrified with.

It's, it's not much of an empty threat.

I mean, he's shown that, he's shown that when he says something like that.

Luckily, he's, he's busy, uh, busy at the moment or lucky, lucky for these countries anyway, but, uh, not for Ukraine.

But not for Ukraine.

And they, they're certainly nervous.

I know any, any of the Eastern European ones, the Baltic states, Um, central Asia as well are, yeah, they're, they're nervous, but they are economically beholden and culturally very, very strongly linked to Russia.

So it isn't like they can just, just turn away and, and, and, and do what they want.

Um, it's their largest trading partner.

Uh, it was Pakistan has 5 million people working in Russia, sending back seven, 8 billion worth of remittances every year.

So they can't just cut ties and say, oh, it's fine.

We'll just work with the US and Europe or India, or, or someone.

They are, they're, they are stuck to a degree with, with Russia and with and with.

Yeah, there's a bunch of countries that are sort of, there aren't they?

We're sort of trying to divide the role world.

There's a sort of, you know, you are on the goody side or the Bady side isn't there, and then there's countries that are just totally interlinked, taking a step back from what you do.

I mean, unusually for a London based vc, you don't expect people to come to you, as it were.

You are slightly looking abroad and, and looking, you know, for opportunities there and that, and that is important to you.

Yeah, I mean we're, we're investing in, in, uh, central Asia and, and South Asia, mainly Bangladesh and Pakistan, and, and looking for businesses that are solving those, those problems domestically.

So not say a, uh, an ozbek company that's trying to build a, a piece of software or technology for the us.

Saw for the uk, but someone that's, that's building something to solve a, a problem locally because the way the, the economies and societies are structured is still very offline.

So it's paper, it's Excel, uh, but what you've had in the last five to 10 years is a, a, a massive increase in the number of smartphones and the level of internet penetration.

And that's really the kind of foundations on which you can.

Technology businesses.

And the advantage of those technology businesses as, as we all know, is they're far more efficient.

They enable people to, to kind of grow their businesses, to, to, to, to access new products and, and new services.

Um, so why is, why is it important that we're doing that?

Cuz they, we are, as well as obviously trying, trying to make money for, for ourselves and for our investors.

We also having a very positive impact on, on the countries that we're investing in.

And do you have a particular kind of, Type of investor.

I mean, who are these people that think, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'll go with Sturgeon Capital.

I want my money utilized in as Stan or Pakistan or, um, they are, uh, I'd say so many of them are as, um, eclectic in background as, as, as we are, uh, a a lot of them are, say, family offices or high networths individuals that have, have made money in other emerging markets.

So they've seen.

They, they understand the opportunity, they understand the risks as well.

I mean, they're trying to sell to, uh, s a u European based investor that's never really invested in or worked outside of Europe.

Trying to explain the risks of Pakistan or, or Bangladesh or Central Asia is, is, is very difficult.

Whereas someone who's, who's done business there, has made money there and can understand that while risks are higher, actually the potential, the potential, uh, rewards are higher as.

You, you immediately starts thinking about the sort of issues like, um, the bribery Act and stuff.

How do you reference yourself from the impossibility of a country that has lots of corruption or does things in a way that basically the British law says you can't touch it, sort of thing?

Yeah.

I mean that's, uh, that, that risk is, is, is much higher in these countries, but I think where.

What's different about maybe what we do versus what traditionally was done on more on the private equity side.

If you were investing in, in, in private equity in these countries, you were investing in, uh, natural resources, manufacturing.

There were a lot of vested interests there.

I mean, digging gold out of the ground.

It is complex, but you dig it out, you sell it, it has a value.

You're a bit more efficient, a bit less efficient, it doesn't really matter.

So a lot of fingers get, get stuck in those pies and you get exp appropriated on a pretty regular basis.

Right, right.

Whereas these kind of early stage companies, you're building it from, from nothing.

Um, it requires a different kind of mentality and approach, which typically that sort of government official doesn't have, doesn't understand, doesn't necessarily see the value in it to begin with and, and a lot of that value is intangible.

If they come in and try and appropriate it.

Now, this is not a foolproof protection, but you are operating with businesses that if, if they come in and exp appropriate it and everyone leaves, that business will stop working.

Um, and the, the, so there's that, there isn't a kind of residual there is, or the residual value that they could take, uh, or that they would try and sort of, uh, take, take bribes for is, is much lower.

How easy is it in some of these countries to actually set.

It massively varies.

Some, some countries actually Georgia and and Kazakhstan are some of the easiest places in the world to set up businesses, really.

They've guys see Barry give him a 10.

Uh, in Georgia you can do it pretty much all online.

Um, and it takes a day, two days.

Kazakhstan's a similar, so they don't have any capital kind of requirement or anything.

Uh, it depends on the sort of structure you're using, but it, it's actually remarkably simple and I don't think they publish it anymore, but in the ease of doing.

Which countries could game and they, and they did game, but actually these, these, I think Georgia came in the top 10.

Kazakhstan was, wow.

Was similar as well.

And a lot of that was by digitalizing the, the processes and because they understood that anything that happened offline was an opportunity for corruption.

Um, and that corruption was getting in the way of doing business.

So they move, try.

You have tried to move a lot of things online.

There isn't a person between you and your application.

So effectively, I think London is the largest VC market outside of the us My understanding is, and so therefore you can go to these companies that are in these, um, emerging markets that are probably doing something a bit new that therefore isn't necessarily attached to anything particularly or heavily regulated as it were.

Um, a tool that you can come in, you can bring that London checkbook to them to give them extra value, as it were.

Um, and then I assume, you know, you are, you are, you are just requiring, do you require them to do anything here?

You, you just want 'em to be successful in their home market?

Um, want 'em to be successful in their home markets, in neighboring markets, in, in similar markets.

Uh, some, some have solutions and, and software.

That, that could be transferred to more developed markets.

But the dynamic's very different.

I mean, the cost of doing business in the UK or US is 10 to a hundred times more than it is in a market like US Pakistan.

Um, so if you want to go as an ozbek company to say, go to the us, you're gonna, you, you're gonna need a lot more money, you face a lot more competition.

Your sales process is, is very different.

So we tend to focus on those companies that are building for their markets.

Um, they, they usually have an international HoldCo, so that's part of a way of kind of de-risking, uh, or, or.

Mitigating the local legal, legal environment because you're, as a foreigner, you're, you're almost certainly gonna lose, um, if, if you, if you're even allowed a, uh, even allowed a, a court case.

But with that international hold code, you are, you, you are changing that dynamic.

It's really interesting though, thinking about.

Online being a place where you can actually control a bit more the, the risk of corruption because, you know, we are, we normally in the west, we have this attitude to online, which is, it's dangerous, it's, you know, you're more likely to get screwed, et cetera, et cetera.

But actually it's really interesting to flip it around and say, because there's.

You know, kind of individuals involved.

It, it's actually less open to corruption.

Yeah, I mean, I guess if you go down the sort of the, um, the long term vision of something like Web three is that you are taking out any kind of intermediaries and it's all that sort of blockchain ledge, ledger based technology that, uh, can, can eliminate any potential for, for, for corruption.

We're a long way away from, uh, a long way away from that, but, Corruption if, if, and where it exists in, in, in the UK is we've changed it to become sort of official sounding payments that you need to make to the local council to get, to get approval for, uh, planning permission or something like that.

Now, in.

Stan, that's still just a cash payment.

It doesn't have a formal name.

It hasn't been put into a kind of system or, or, or processes.

So when you're still in that informal society or that informal way of, of collecting money is actually shifting it to, to, to digital does help reduce those kind of points of contact where, where someone could, could ask for money or, or try to take money.

I mean, corruption, it's a bit like someone said to me, an old Italian guy said, you know, the mafia weren't all bad, Andy, there were parts of Italy that were terribly badly.

And then what would happen is you would've a local leader who would start running the place better and that becomes a, a mafia as it were, and where, you know, when do you get that corruption?

It's called a dictatorship though.

Then even benign dictatorships are still dictatorships.

Wow.

Right.

Well, I dunno.

I mean a dictator.

Suggest some sort of absolute path.

They, they didn't necessarily have absolute path, but I mean, you, you take a different example where bureaucracy is very inefficient.

So when you've got a lot of people and bad old systems that are taking too slow, naturally it becomes, well, how do I jump the cure, forgive you a bit more money?

You know, it's, it's that sort of, you know, we we're now in a state in the UK where everything's incredibly slow and there's no system to jump wait, turn around it, way to jump.

And uh, I think that's something when.

If you speak to sort of politicians or, or people in, in emerging markets, I don't think as many of them today as maybe used to look at sort of democracy and say, that seems like the best way of running things.

They look at maybe a country like Singapore, which is an anomaly because of how small it is, but it has been phenomenally successful.

Now, that's not a democracy.

Um, that's actually a very restrictive society on a lot of, on a lot of freedoms.

But you have complete business freedom.

Um, it's very secure.

It's very well run.

Was there, was there back in November and he's the, you, he, he's the odd one on the graph.

You know, every major leader with that much power.

It goes to their head and they become more and more controlling.

Yeah.

Whereas he's become more and more open and continues to do so.

Yeah.

But it's still like if you are, um, caught with drugs in your system or on you, you're kicked outta the country forever.

If you, if, if, if you're local, you're executed.

Uh, if you are international, you're kicked out with the 24 hours.

Like they said, you're on a training thing.

I think you get like a Yeah, but it's, it's severe anyway.

Yeah.

I mean it, but you have complete economic freedom.

You can, you can do business.

Um, you have the environment to do business there.

But you, you accept that politically any and sort of, uh, per personally, certain, certain, certain freedoms are restricted.

I mean, the solution to corruption is multi-layered.

It's education.

It's a financial, you know, disparate, you know, the, the larger disparity between the rich and the poor the more able you are to corrupt sort of thing.

But I think what we are talking about was.

You know, transparency, I guess without invasion of privacy is, yeah.

Is key, is key to clearing that process up and, and moving everything digitally solves that, you know?

Yeah.

But I mean, one, uh, an interesting example from the countries that we work in.

So Georgia, uh, after the Rose Rose Revolution in 2001, 2002, Zackers Feel, who came to power, uh, corruption then.

Endemic, I mean, the, the, the country was a sort of, kind of ma mafia state, and one of, one of the worst forms of corruption were the, um, transport police.

And he, he knew that there were maybe 10, 20% of them that were okay, but the rest were corrupt and were, were taking enormous amounts of bribes.

So rather than try and figure it out, he said, look, you're all fired.

I'm gonna get rid of all you.

I'm sorry.

I know some of you are good, but I'm gonna get rid of all of you because I know the majority of you are bad.

Hire a completely new and slightly and slim down professional, uh, transport, police force.

Mm-hmm.

Crime rates went down.

Corruption obviously basically disappeared overnight.

I mean, you started this with, you know, Ukraine and what the impact of that globally has been and, um, you know, thankfully through you as well.

Um, you know, I have some Ukrainian clients and have done historically, and it's been fascinating watching them deal with everything.

What do, what do you think you've learned from that?

So we have two investments in Ukraine, and I think what it's, it's shown me.

Um, the, the kind of level of grit and determination that people can show in the face of extreme adversity, and it, it set the benchmark very high.

I mean, one of the big questions for us when we're investing in businesses is kind of assessing the founders and their ability to, to handle tenacity.

Yeah, tenacity.

The, the trials and tribulations that they will face.

Um, as they're building their business and, and, uh, a addressing the problems that, uh, that come up over time.

And I mean, you, you, you couldn't imagine a more difficult situation than, than than your country being invaded.

Sudden you're gone from running a business with a sort of happy workforce and things to having to take care of your employees, get them out of Ukraine, get them clear from, uh, potential conflict zones.

Presumably a number of them would have.

Be conscripted.

So one of the co-founders of one of our portfolio companies, uh, was conscripted, was wounded on the front line, is still serving in the armed forces in Ukraine at the moment.

A year, a year later.

No, it's deep.

You know, my, my, uh, longstanding client is at an office out there.

I mean, it's been fascinating.

I mean, he, his line, what did he say to me the other day?

And if you told me that I'll be buying machine guns online for the, for through my company account a year ago would've said you insane.

But one of the main charities they give to out there, because if you've got a business out there and then.

Staff out there, then you're so much more deeper involved in what's going on.

Like you say, the men are, are fighting a lot of them.

Some of their office manager wanted to go to war, but, uh, fiance I think had, had gone into the thing, so she, she didn't go in the end and I mean, it's just sort of, you know, it's that insanity level.

But he says, you know, they brought a generator.

They have the Elon Musk.

Satellite link.

Yeah.

They take a across the border from Poland.

Cuz you can't get anything delivered at the moment in Ukraine.

Huh?

Amazon's even given up.

I don't even know if Amazon's still rocking in Ukraine.

That would be impressive.

But you know, it's become this almost community center.

It's just the way life changes, you know?

Yeah.

No, no.

It's a kind of an interesting question of how, how do you think the UK would respond?

U UK society would handle this because Ukrainians are.

Very historical.

I think hats off to how Ukraine have responded, but it instills in you a very deep, you know, intrinsic emotion.

I think a lot of us feel, which is territory.

You know, we're territorial animals, you know, you get in front of my space in a queue, you know, I'm, I'm some piece of my mind is currently dragging out that door and murdering you, you know?

Uh, yeah.

But another piece of your mind, it's you doing it because you're English, thankfully.

What sort of sectors do you guys invest in then?

Do you have specific kind of.

Um, sectors that you say, yes, we'll do that, we'll do this kind of tech, or that kind of tech?

Or is it just generally anything that benefits the emerging economy?

So our core focus is on, uh, fin FinTech solutions, uh, B2B software.

So that's anything from HR management in management, a lot of those things that we take for granted here and which, which have been round for, for, for such a long time now, that.

We, we don't even think about, but which they don't have at all.

Or, um, marketplaces.

So e-commerce, both B2B and b2c.

Uh, we, we look at a lot of other businesses as well and, and we will invest in, in anything.

But those are the kind of core ones, which, if you like, are some of those, the, the sort of first level of, of technology that needs to be built in order to then start moving to more kind of complex, advanced solutions.

But, but the advantage you have there is, uh, you take something like.

Well, somewhere between 60 to 90% of people don't have a bank account, whereas everyone here has a bank account.

Wow.

Um, so if you are 95, 90 9% or whatever, people have a bank and they're cutting their money under the, under the mattress.

Under the mattress in cash.

Um, and so when you come along as a sort of neobank, well your sort of Monso Revolut equivalent, When if you can convert someone to using you, you are their primary account.

Whereas the challenge everyone has here is I have my Halifax, my hsbc, my Barclay's account.

I set up a Monzo one because I kind of like it.

The UX is still, I know I use it on holiday.

Yeah, yeah.

I get some kind of neat deal, but I still keep most of my money with Halifax.

Even though Monzo has the same license, I'm as protected.

With Monzo as I am with Halifax, I still keep most of my money there because I don't know, I've, it's Halifax, I've been with them since I was like four years old or whatever, and that little like paying in book and things and so, so I still have it.

Whereas in, in those markets you don't, so you have this kind of leapfrogging from offline transactions to online and I mean, would you, is this, it's a, it's a slight side point, but I, I find it an interesting.

Would you say to a UK business to think about emerging markets as an expansion place or is it really, you know, he's nowhere near ready and it's just emerging markets off this really interesting, you know, deal flow.

This really interesting pool.

Um, The, the challenge if you are coming from, from, from the UK is your sort of cost base and your, and your pricing point will be so, so different.

Um, if you are used to selling to UK businesses or, or consumers who have a certain purchasing power, you, you, you price your product at a certain level.

You have your own cost base of engineers, of, of salespeople, of support staff who are maybe even based in uk maybe you've outsourced it to, to another country.

But if you wanna go and sell in, sell in US Pakistan, where GDP per capita is, is five to 10% of what it is in the uk, I could dunno what it is exactly off, off, off the top of my head.

You, you're gonna struggle to match the, the price that you want to sell something at, to what they can afford to pay.

And that's, that's really the opportunity for local companies.

So you have global leaders in a lot of these spaces.

However, they, they, they don't have the localizations, they don't have.

Pricing point.

They don't have the support to actually be successful in these, in these emerging markets.

And that's why the kind of local, local champions, the local, uh, the local success stories emerge.

Okay.

And to you as a, as a fund, as an investor coming to do investment in this kind of space, what, what is the attraction as an investor's?

Obviously more risks, so there's more return.

Is it as simple as that?

Uh, yeah, if you, if you break it down to that.

Yeah, it is, it is, is really, it is really a.

A function of risk and return.

Um, if, if you think about where, what I think is is maybe a frustration with a lot of, uh, a lot of technology companies I see being built in, in the west at the moment is that they're, the, the sort of marginal benefit to their user is, is, is, is tiny.

It's, it's maybe five, 10% because that person already uses technology.

They already have something that, that does the job.

And maybe this is just making it a little bit.

Now sometimes you get solutions which really are fundamentally changing how things work and, and can have a much more significant impact.

But that level of impact is really the value you're creating and the potential sort of value for, for, for yourself as well.

Whereas if you look at any kind of, uh, vertical or industry in, in, in, in these emerging markets, digital penetration is, is sub sub 1%.

Um, pretty, pretty much across the board.

Now, is that gonna go to 5%?

Is it gonna go to 10% in the next 10 years?

Yes, I think it will.

And that five 10 x increased, that's really the value that you are capturing.

And you're coming from a ba such a low base.

You can be 30 to 50% market share of that.

Now these are billion dollar industries in these countries, and that's the sort of size of business that you can build.

Now you.

Challenges around sort of the availability of funding, the time it takes to build those businesses is definitely longer than in these in developed markets because here we understand the value of technology and software and solutions.

There you have to explain to people.

However, the cost of acquiring people here is more because I already have a solution.

So you really need to persuade me that the, the new one is, The new, the new one is better.

Um, and there's, yeah, so that's, that's kind of where you are, where, where you're playing, you're saying, look, today there is essentially nothing we're essentially happening offline in the next 10 years.

A significant portion of that is gonna shift online at a very rapid rate.

We are there to be investing in those leading businesses that, that capture that, and that will create a lot of value for us as investors and for our investors.

Is there a, is there a general.

A bit of a brain drain from all of these emerging market countries.

Yeah.

So there, there historically has been quite a lot of drain of, of brain drain.

Interestingly, one of the things that is bringing people back is technology.

Mm-hmm.

So those, uh, kind of individuals who worked in the US or UK at, at sort of leading lead, leading global tech companies have, have done well and un and understand.

But part of it's a sort of nationalistic thing.

We were talking about it earlier, of sort of wanting to go back to your country.

I mean, in this case it's not defended, but go back and build something for your own country.

Maybe you've been successful enough that you are, you, you are comfortable and, and you see the opportunity to take those skills and, and that kind of reputation and your family's there and your ties are there and your Yeah.

Um, and I think you, I certainly see it in, in Pakistan and in Bangladesh, in, in Central Asia as well.

There's a lot of people who, who move abroad and are very successful and they, they come back and it's.

Twofold.

I think it's, it's that family thing exactly.

As you say.

That's where, that's where the family is and all of us.

I think it's, it's living in a totally different culture is, while it may be exhausting, enjoyable, it, yeah, it's tiring and, and you miss things.

You miss the food.

You miss the weather.

Even if it's maybe worse.

I mean, you go broad as industry from we, and we complain about how, how hot it is, and then we come back and we complain about how much it rains.

Yeah.

It's what we do best.

Yeah.

And then, but then also it's like, oh, well maybe I can build something for, for, for, for my.

I think probably the international point is underneath it, there are these certain hubs, Singapore, London, you know, New York or Delaware inadvertently, um, that you, that, that, that share certain things and it's access to capital is the key one that a lot of them, you know, and, and hence you are based in London and there are these hubs.

That forces you to somewhat have your holding company there and then all of them are kind of set up, uk, Singapore, Delaware, SEACOR, to be very attractive for doing that kind of thing, but then, then forces you into that kind of international conversation, isn't it?

So I would say to an emerging market one, if the CO wanted to move to London, it's like, no, they should stay where the action is.

But this, if it's gonna be your holding company is somewhere, yeah, you should come and hold proper board meetings if that's, you know, or put a different way, should I have my holding company in London or Singapore?

It's like, well, where's easier for you to fly to?

Yeah.

I mean, kind of and, and it's, uh, what you're really doing there is, okay, you're, you're a business operating in India where wherever you're operating.

To convince someone to invest in you, you've gotta sell them on all the risks and the challenges of, of, of your country.

Now, if you can sell them on that, you don't want them then to have, to get comfortable with, say, local legal risks in Pakistan.

A hundred percent.

Because there's, there's no way they're gonna get comfortable with that.

They're gonna get their laws involved and it's just gonna be red flag, red flags, capital controls.

Exactly.

It's like, huh.

So, and then you go, okay.

I thought, you don't wanna create another headache, but if you tell them Singapore HoldCo, they go, oh, oh, easy.

Yeah, I know, I know those.

I understand Those lawyer looks at and goes, no, brilliant.

Yeah, fine.

And actually that's the number one piece of advice I would give to any of those emerging marketplaces when you start your business.

Do not set up, set your first company up in the UK or Singapore.

Pick either, frankly.

And then your subsidiary in your home country from day one.

And if you do that because you can't, you know, halfway down the road, you can't just take a company and stick a Holden company in place, internationally speaking, that's very likely to gonna have consequences for shareholders.

Somewhere.

Okay, that's good.

Uh, that, I mean, that, that is, to be honest, out of anything, if you want to make yourself attractive, whe whether it be Robin or the man on the moon, pick a few, a couple of places, Delaware, SEACOR, London or Singapore as, as places that have really set themselves up for that positioning that you could, should be able to.

Set up easily and ba, lots, lot, lots of boring tax reasons, no withholding taxes and stuff, and then that that sort of helps you move along.

It makes a massive difference.

Business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark.

Straight Talking financial and legal advice since 1935.

You can find us@ariclark.com.

Do you think anything is bullshit in.

I was, I was thinking, thinking about this on the, the, the way over and it, the original thing comes from, um, the, the fact that on, uh, LinkedIn, which I'm kind of a fan of LinkedIn, I've not heard many people go, I'm a fan of LinkedIn.

Well, like, like from a work, from a, from work, that's what you get up to at weekends isn't, its the LinkedIn hours and hours an asthma.

Um, no, but it, it's, it's, it's is you, you can learn a lot and very kind of work, work focused and, and pick up bits of information.

Whatever is, is relevant and you, you do get a bit of an echo chamber because most of the people I'm connected to are involved in, in VC or emerging markets.

But, but it's interesting to me, I, I learn a lot, some of it's bits that I wouldn't pick up otherwise.

Sometimes it gets me the kind of, the access, the information, but there's now seems to be a shift towards people posting a lot of kind of personal stuff on there of uh, sort of their stories and journey Oh Jesus challenges, which.

Oh, on the one hand it's like, okay, it's great and maybe it's, it's very helpful for you, but it's, it's that sort of blurring of lines between the sort of social, private life and, and work life.

And in the end, I think you, you want to work in an environment or a location or a company and, and with people that you enjoy working with and that, that, that you're happy working with.

But in the end, it's, it is, it's a job.

It is a job, and there needs to be some.

Delineation.

I think we may be similar on this.

Like what I liked about LinkedIn is I have to develop professional facade.

I mean, I have to do that whether I'm a plumber or what a teacher, whatever job I do.

And some people have to wear a suit or they've got an outfit and that's their sort of arm they put on in the morning, and it's a.

Psychological thing or we go to work, you know?

But my, my point is we develop this, this, this front, and it's very well defined.

There's very old rules that sort of map out what is or isn't.

Okay.

In a workplace, I mean, there's laws around employment.

LinkedIn, you can also get sued.

Yeah.

LinkedIn.

Suddenly I'm okay with it being public.

I'm okay because that what I struggle with as an older person is my private life.

My private life.

Why am I putting it online?

I don't understand.

Like, you know, it feels sy of Antic to run around the street saying, have you seen this picture of my dog?

Seen this picture of my dog?

Because that's what it feels like when you post out into the wider world.

So I love LinkedIn for that framework.

So you are saying, and I kind of agree, what happens it.

Starts getting taken away from you that it's more that I wouldn't expect to come and work.

And everyone have letters lying around of how their life's gone terribly bad or, you know, talk to HR about it.

And even HR has a limit.

We're not your psychologist, we're your workplace.

But, uh, you know, and also, I mean, I, I go to a women in business network group and their kind of communal, online social.

Contact place is Facebook and that drives me berserk.

Partly because I'm not on Facebook.

I will never be on Facebook.

I therefore I can't join any of the, you know, the kind of, I dunno what they do on Facebook, but whatever the meeting things are they do on Facebook.

I can't join them because I'm not on Facebook and I'm like the obvious place for this conversation.

We're all business people.

We are together because we are all in business.

Why are we not having this conversation on linked.

So this is where we're gonna find out more about you, Robin.

Uh, we're gonna give you a list of questions to get to know you a little better, five to 10 seconds each per answer.

Sure.

Okay.

We won't interrupt you.

I won't, you may.

Well, it's like a Tourettes, uh, de the music please.

Okay, let's go.

Uh, what was your first job?

Uh, first job was picking black Currents country in any country, uh, in Shire in the uk.

Sorry, I.

What's your worst job?

It wasn't the worst job.

I first year of university, in the summer, I, I worked two jobs.

I was working for a sort of Middle Eastern, uh, consultancy kind of, um, think tank, and then working at a pub at night till like three o'clock in the morning.

So that was, which was worse?

Uh, neither was what combination?

I enjoyed both, but the combination of the two men that sleeping, everything kind of went out the window.

Wow.

That was a, yeah, that was probably the most D.

Physically kind of job that I've, I've had favorite subjects or school history.

Mm, damn stroke.

What's your special skill?

What would I say it is?

I seems to be able to kind of get on with people pretty well, um, in kind of from different countries and, and dif different parts of the world.

Um, I, I enjoyed learning about who they are, where they come from, what they.

Uh, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Uh, I, my dad was in the army and so I think, uh, probably wanted to be a soldier for lack of any other imagination.

Oh, your dad must have seemed so cool and well, up until like eight.

Sorry.

I'm where, what did your parents want you to be?

Uh, definitely not a soldier.

Do they?

Not, uh, definitely not mum.

Um, well, you can get shot and killed, I suppose.

That's, that's very true.

And I think for, for mum having, yeah.

Not many mum.

For Keen on needs to be soldiers?

No.

What, what did they want you to be there?

Do you remember?

Uh, I don't think there was only ever any, ever any expectation for a kind of particular, particular career.

Happy.

Yeah.

That was certainly, certainly up there.

What's your go-to karaoke song?

Uh, Mambo number five.

Here's it.

That's unusual.

Mambo number five.

I kind of know that.

Isn't that that really?

Anyway, we'll come back to that.

Uh, office Dogs business or Bullshit?

Um, Have you put the ear, the headphones on?

Yeah.

Bullshit you're saying quietly.

No, I think, I think, uh, I've grown up with dogs.

So Business, yes.

Nice.

Have you, have you ever been fired?

Uh, no, I haven't touched touch wood yet.

Yet.

And what's your vice?

Uh, vice.

Is usually doing everything to excess.

Um, particularly on the weekend.

Oh really?

Is that exercise or in the pleasure of department or something?

But the weekends, me and the wife just clean.

We clean and clean and clean.

We clean all weekend.

So this is where you.

30 seconds on anything.

Your pitch need to sell your car.

What, what?

Whatever's going on.

Anything you want to tell us about?

Um, no.

Look, if anyone, anyone listening wants to kind of learn more about, uh, what we're doing in emerging markets and that sort of thing, they can get in touch.

And Robin, how do people actually get in touch with you?

Can get in touch through, through LinkedIn might be the easiest way, or, uh, they could get in touch by email.

I, I dunno what, uh, yeah, LinkedIn's probably, probably the easiest one.

So there, that's.

Now you have it.

That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.

Uh, we will be back for another episode on Thursday.

Thank you, Robin.

Thank you Pepper.

Thank you Dee.