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Dave Rohrl has more than 22 years experience designing and producing online games for a mass audience. Over the course of his career, he has led design or production on more than 50 games and overseen or consulted on dozens more and held senior positions at Pogo, PopCap, Zynga, and Playdom. In this episode, we discuss the design process, especially as it pertains to preproduction on casual games. Listen to learn why he encourages bad code and art early in the process and many of the tactics he brings to bear in order to achieve "fun" fast. Visit www.playmakerspodcast.com to get access to the full blog post for this episode and much more!
Hey, what's up?
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:You're listening to Playmakers Podcast.
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:I'm your host, Jordan Blackman.
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:And on every episode, I interview
a game industry legend or luminary
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:to bring information to you.
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:That's going to help you do better
on your project, in your discipline,
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:in your domain, and to get a bigger,
wider view of the game industry.
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:This week, I've got Dave Roll,
known as the mobile game doctor.
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:He has a lot to share about designing
efficiently and effectively.
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:mobile, that's coming up.
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:Here we go.
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:Dave Roll has held senior level
positions and I'm talking about
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:executive positions at companies like.
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:Playdom, PopCap, Zynga, Pogo,
you know, there aren't that
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:many companies like that.
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:Those are the biggest players in
that space, and Dave's been there.
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:If you play Plants vs.
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:Zombies, as you will learn in this
interview, Dave is Crazy Dave, or at
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:least the inspiration for Crazy Dave, in
those games, and We get into some really
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:interesting information about what Dave
has learned in his many, many years doing
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:casual about designing efficiently and
producing efficiently, minimizing design
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:risk, finding the fun early soft launch
process, all that stuff we get into it.
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:So if you are working on a mobile
project on a casual project.
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:or just want to get some best
practices from that field, you're
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:going to get that in this episode.
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:Dave is someone that I wanted to have
on the show because he is someone that I
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:personally admire as a designer and who
I have gone to in the past with specific
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:design issues that I'm working out.
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:When I've wanted some outside
input and he's been very
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:helpful to me in that capacity.
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:So I have a lot of respect and
trust in Dave and his skills and
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:his background, and also in his
attitude and professionalism.
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:And I think you will get a taste
of all that in this interview.
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:Now, before we get to the interview,
I just want to mention that if you are
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:enjoying the show, if you're getting
something useful out of it, please do
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:share with anyone you know who would enjoy
it, who would enjoy this episode or any
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:of the other episodes that we've done.
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:You can also head to iTunes and subscribe
and write us a review, which is awesome
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:because that's how I find out who
you want on the show, what's helping
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:you, what you like about the show.
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:And it also helps support the
show and get the word out there.
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:And if you just want to reach out
to me directly, you can do that.
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:Jordan at bright, black.
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:co I want to hear about the struggles
that you're having in your project, the
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:topics that you want covered on the show
and the guests that you want on the show,
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:because this show is here to help you.
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:It's for you.
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:This is my way of serving the game design,
production and development community
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:and the business community as well.
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:So, I will leave it at that and let's go
talk to Dave Roll, the Mobile Game Doctor.
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:Well, thanks Dave.
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:Welcome to PlayMakers.
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:It's great to have you on.
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:Thank you so much for having me, Jordan.
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:It's a pleasure.
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:I've had the chance to work with you
on a couple of things and I really
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:admired your skills and your creativity.
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:Coolness and your honesty.
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:I want to start with just getting into how
you got into the industry I know you've
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:you've been in games for over 20 years.
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:What brought you in and
what got you interested?
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:So I actually got into games,
I guess Relatively late.
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:Uh, so it was right around the time.
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:I was 19 Which means I had a couple of
careers before that, um, you know, after
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:college spent about five years working
in nonprofits, uh, saving the world.
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:Oh really?
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:As you can see, mission accomplished.
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:What, what kind of nonprofits
were you, were you into?
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:I did some environmental work,
I did some diversity work, and
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:I did some anti nuclear work.
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:Sort of, you know, off at the Bernie
Sanders end of the political spectrum.
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:That's amazing.
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:Yeah, you know, it was really Fun work,
but I had a very interesting experience
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:in a couple of different nonprofits where
I had an opportunity to really kind of
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:rise up in the ranks and take on a lot
of responsibility in a very senior post,
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:and I just couldn't get excited about it.
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:And so the second time that this
happened, I sort of took a giant step
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:back and said, uh, okay, if I can't get
excited about growing my career here,
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:it's probably not the right career.
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:And that actually led me to
take stock of what do I love?
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:What am I passionate about?
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:And I've been actually kind of obsessed
with games since I was very, very little.
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:Like, I've been obsessed with games since
literally before there were video games.
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:I was the little kid who wanted to
have their parents play one more
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:game of gin rummy before bedtime.
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:Right, um, and you know got
together with my friends for games.
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:Not too many kids like that anymore.
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:Well, this is true because we've we've
opened up, you know, kind of solo
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:entertainment So much right the the rate
at which entertainment pours into our
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:lives at the moment is is staggering
right just the amount of content that's
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:out there to interact with totally the
idea at all that social gaming would be a
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:distinct thing rather than just you mean
like what games are shows how how much
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:we've done that yeah I got into a couple
semanticists at the GDC talks about people
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:talking about how games had forever been,
you know, Multiplayer, and it was only in
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:the last couple of decades they've been
single player, and I'm, I pulled them
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:aside and I said, Actually, dude, you
know, single player video games evolved
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:from puzzles, not from games, right?
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:But that's, that's kind
of semantic and nitpicky.
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:Um, but I always loved games,
and I always loved technology.
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:Um, and I also took a look around in,
you know, this was the late 80s, early
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:90s, and said, You know, do I think I
can make a living making board games?
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:Board games are a
tremendous passion of mine.
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:I've got about 700 around the house.
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:Oh my gosh.
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:Actually, yes, kind of
taking over the house.
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:I'm selling off some because
I, I literally can't fit
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:them in the shelving anymore.
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:If you want to put a link to your
board game collection sales, you
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:know, maybe we can help you out.
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:There you go, will do.
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:Um, yeah, I'm selling them off
via auctions on boardgamegeek.
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:com, which if you were as geeky about
board gaming as me is a great resource.
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:So, but I took my love of games, my
love of technology, um, and you know,
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:I had been playing recently some games
that really excited and inspired me.
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:Games like Sid Meier's Pirates and
Railroad Tycoon in the original SimCity.
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:And that combined with my kind of lifelong
love of strategy games made me say, okay,
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:well, look, I really want to do this.
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:I want to participate in
this, this act of creation.
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:And so that's what pulled me in.
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:It's around 27 when I
decided I want to get there.
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:It took me a couple of years of building
the right professional skills, uh,
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:to transition from nonprofits into
technology and then into games and
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:broke in in 94 and have been having
a lot of fun with it ever since.
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:Where did you break in?
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:Uh, so my.
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:My first job in gaming, I did a
very short term engagement for an
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:educational, like, courseware developer
that was part of Simon Schuster.
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:Um, but my first real job in
gaming actually was as a senior QA
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:engineer at The Learning Company.
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:down in Fremont.
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:So the folks that made the original, uh,
Reader Rabbit and Clue Finder's titles.
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:And, uh, I spent about six
and a half years there.
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:It seems like quite a few
people got, got started there.
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:There were a lot of smart
folks inside that company.
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:They did some really, really
interesting games, too.
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:And I think it was kind of a, Good and
really interesting place to launch in
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:some ways just because um, making games
for kids Means that you really need to
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:learn to make something that's fun for
somebody who isn't you Right, right and
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:understand an audience externally and
realize that these guys inherently are
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:going to hit usability issues that you
never will That they're going to hit a
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:threshold of confusion that, you know, you
just won't because you're in your 30s and
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:you're making something for six year olds.
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:And so as it happened, when I went to Pogo
in:
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:makers, especially concentrated there at
Pogo, um, were folks who had been making
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:kid software, just because they had that
experience of how to keep things simple.
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:How to work for an audience
that isn't you right?
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:Um, i've definitely seen a lot of
developers struggle with that Yeah,
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:and also kind of how to how to work
lean So when I started in the 90s,
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:there were really no online games
to speak of right in the early 90s
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:You had some muds that was about it.
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:Um, So games were mostly delivered
on a CD ROM and, you know, they
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:were super dependent on the
video card you had in your PC.
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:A lot of kids sort of tended
to work on hand me down PCs.
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:Not a lot of memory, not a lot of
processor power, not very good graphics.
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:So you kind of learned to, to work lean.
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:And to really focus your design and to
kind of not hide behind rich assets.
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:So it sounded, sounds like some of
these skills working, working lean and
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:being able to, you know, understand
how to think like your user who might
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:be different than you, these might've
given you kind of a jumpstart when you
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:started working in casual mobile games.
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:Yeah, absolutely.
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:I mean, I think that those are
really valuable skills for.
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:Any designer, regardless of what
you're doing, um, I think, you know,
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:generally in sort of down market
platforms, there's more value to kind
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:of understanding the leanness and going
asset like, um, but really knowing
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:like how to focus on gameplay, how to
deliver that really strongly without.
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:Relying on big flashy assets is your
friend regardless of whether you're
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:making games for smart watches or you're
making games for next gen consoles
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:Yeah, well, I want to get into that
with you But before we do, you know,
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:you want you went on to work at pogo and
popcap zynga and play them In a number
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:of like very senior positions, who
were you learning from along the way?
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:Who were, who were the people
and what were the projects where
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:you, you know, built up that the
skill set that you have today?
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:Yeah, well, I mean, after two decades
in the industry, I sort of had a lot of
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:teachers that have had profound impacts.
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:Um, At Pogo, I think it was interesting.
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:There was, um, there was definitely a
management hierarchy, but there were
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:three or four really strong designers.
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:And, you know, none of whom
are celebrities, right.
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:But three or four really strong designers
around the same points in their career
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:that all came in at the same time.
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:And I feel like just by working
together, by, um, building a culture of
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:critique, by, you know, collaborating
and by challenging each other.
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:Um, we really, I, I learned a ton, um,
and, you know, I don't know, maybe, maybe
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:I slip streamed off those guys or maybe
they learned something too, um, but, you
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:know, those were, uh, Troy Whitlock, who
not only created a lot of great stuff
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:at Pogo, uh, He's a very successful
designer at, uh, Disney, created, uh, Star
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:Wars Commander, uh, among other things.
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:Uh, and Todd Kerpelman, who
actually now is working a bit
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:on the other side of the fence.
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:I think he's, last I heard, working at,
uh, Google, um, kind of working as an
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:advocate for game developers, right?
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:Trying to help them, uh,
give them a voice inside the
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:technical development of Android.
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:Uh, kind of help them with their issues.
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:You know, Todd and Troy were the guys
who really brought prototyping to Pogo.
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:Uh, before that it had been
much more of a waterfall shop.
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:And so I learned a lot about
prototype driven development there.
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:Um, at PopCap, I got, you know, exposed
to, um, Jason Kopalka, and, uh, who
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:was, you know, one of the co founders
of PopCap, and, uh, really one of
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:the great intuitive game designers.
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:Um, I think, um, he wasn't, necessarily
the best at like breaking down his
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:process, but watching him work and
learning from that was amazing.
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:So I worked with him.
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:Um, George fan actually was one
of my employees at PopCap, the
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:creator of plants versus zombies.
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:Oh, wow.
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:Yeah, actually.
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:Um, you know, you're, you're
talking to crazy Dave.
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:To, to the original
inspiration for the character.
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:No way!
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:You're the inspiration for Crazy Dave?
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:I am the original Crazy Dave!
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:It's eight years later and
there's still a zombie on my lawn.
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:Um I was just, uh, looking at,
um, the new card, card game.
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:Yeah, I checked that out
early in soft launch.
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:I'm really eager to, to see how it's
come together in its final version.
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:But yeah, there goes 14 minutes and
59 seconds of my 15 minutes of fame.
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:Right there.
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:So George is a fabulous
and intuitive designer.
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:Soup beer Sudu, who was the, uh,
the producer and designer on Peggle,
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:uh, was my boss while I was there
and watching him work was fantastic.
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:One interesting thing in this, this
part of my career, which was really
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:like the first 12 years, there wasn't
a separation between producers and
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:designers, so I didn't start working
in the industry so early that it was
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:the same guy doing the coding and
the art and the design and the audio.
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:So I came in later after coding
and art and audio had really
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:split off as distinct disciplines.
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:You were generally the lead designer
and the lead producer on your project,
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:um, which actually I think taught me
some very valuable stuff, both as a
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:designer really thinking about What's
the difficulty of implementation?
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:What's the overhead?
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:What's the cost of what
I want to build, right?
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:And how as a designer can I
facilitate risk management and, you
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:know, cost containment and really
think about bang for the buck?
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:Because, you know, it's one thing to
come up with ideas and another thing
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:to be accountable for getting those
actually done and into the game.
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:I would imagine it would also help
with, like, what you mentioned
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:earlier as far as understanding your
demographic and designing for them.
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:Mm hmm.
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:Yeah, absolutely.
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:And then I think also though, it
gave me much more of a connection to
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:quality and the design process and
the amount of iteration necessary as
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:a producer than I would have had if
I were coming up as a pure producer.
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:So I feel like playing both of
those roles has a lot of value.
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:And even though I am.
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:Um, a better designer
than a Gantt completer.
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:You know, I feel like building
up, building up both of those.
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:You just made a lot of
producers very angry.
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:No, there's, there's a lot more
to the job than that, right?
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:Please don't, don't even get me there.
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:I once referred to, uh, the
title of producer, um, as a null
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:signifier in a job interview.
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:Because I've known producers that
were almost purely creatives,
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:that were almost purely project
managers, and even producers that
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:were almost purely dealmakers.
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:It's a bit of a catch all title.
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:One of the things I tell people about
being a producer is that Other people
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:are various tiles in the structure,
and you have to be the grout.
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:Yes, yeah, you know, it's uh,
it's, it's your job to, you
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:know, kind of make it happen.
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:Yeah, I have my whole
building a house analogy.
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:Whenever I tell people I'm a game
designer, the first thing they ask
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:me is, if I write a lot of code.
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:Um, and the answer is like no
relative to any capable coder.
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:I'm a pretty crappy one.
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:Although that's kind of one of my, uh,
skill sets that I'm hoping to rebuild and
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:strengthen in the, in the coming year.
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:Um, but, you know, I kind of tell people,
if you think about building a building,
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:you know, the designer is the architect,
the producer is the contractor, right?
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:Is the, I'm going to get it all there.
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:And then, you know, hopefully they're
super invested in the quality of the
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:final product, but you know, I like in
the engineers and the artists, uh, to kind
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:of the actual carpenters and electricians
and folks who are going to come in
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:and really put those things in place.
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:Right.
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:The crafts people, the craft people.
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:But the, the producers got to bring
that team together and it has to keep
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:them flowing and organized and has
to deal with all the unexpected stuff
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:that comes up during that project.
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:And then of course, you know, they
have to disappear for three weeks
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:and stop answering phone call.
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:No, I'm sorry.
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:That's how they're
different from contractors.
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:And then there's the associate producers
who are more like craft services.
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:Sure.
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:No, I'm kidding.
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:I'm totally kidding.
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:So.
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:No, but I mean, you know, for me,
I actually really enjoy production.
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:I really enjoy leading teams.
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:I really enjoy kind of figuring out
those puzzles of what we have to do next.
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:And I actually really love
working with prioritization
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:and road mapping and planning.
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:And I also really enjoy agile
process management, right?
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:So I think that's really fun.
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:And, and I, some interesting ways of
doing that from some super cool people.
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:But when it comes down to the meticulous
tracking of every detail, I am.
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:There, there are other people
who are much better at that.
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:So just in terms of mentors, and I
know I've gone long, but I'll, I'll
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:sort of finish up, um, quickly.
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:But, um, in terms of design, there
was an incredibly brilliant staff
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:of creative designers at Platum.
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:So Troy Whitlock was there again.
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:Um, I also learned a ton
from, uh, Steve Moretzky.
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:Oh, yeah.
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:So Steve and I are old friends.
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:We've done a lot of
public speaking together.
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:We've organized symposia together.
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:Um, so having a chance to work
with him for a few years was great.
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:Um, and brilliant, brilliant
fellow named, uh, Eric Todd, the
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:gardens of time guy was also there.
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:And I learned a tremendous
amount from him.
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:Oh, and Raph Koster, who I read
his book, one of the smartest
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:guys in the business for sure.
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:Now was that whole crew on
that, um, in that SOMA office.
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:No, so the HQ was actually in Palo Alto.
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:Um, so Let's see up in soma steve worked
out of soma Raph worked out of a studio
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:that we acquired down in san diego And
then eric troy and I worked out of the
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:palo alto office Although um, we all did
a fair amount of flying around playdom was
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:a company that grew a lot by acquisition.
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:So um, we had studios in north carolina
seattle Buenos aires So I got to fly
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:to Buenos Aires a couple of times.
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:That's nice.
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:No complaints.
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:No complaints.
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:Particularly Buenos Aires
in January, fabulous, right?
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:Middle of the summer down there.
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:And so yeah, I really enjoyed kind
of, uh, flying around and, and
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:partnering with those different teams
and trying to help get them on track.
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:So let's dig in a little bit on process
because you mentioned to me when we were
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:talking ahead of the interview, how, how
this was something you really cared about.
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:And I want to learn a little bit about
the kinds of processes you feel are really
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:important to mobile and free to play
gaming and working with your clients.
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:Sure.
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:Well, I mean, let's, let's talk
about the processes that are critical
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:to game development in general.
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:I hear a little clinking over there.
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:So that's, that's always a good sign.
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:It is, it is.
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:It's, um, you know, a
glass of seltzer water.
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:So very, very exciting afternoon fair.
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:Um, so one of the big things, and
this actually gets missed a lot.
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:As folks become more engaged with
the business models of their game is,
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:you know, your game has to be fun.
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:If it's not fun, if it's not
compelling, if it's not engaging, then
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:there's nothing you can do in terms
of monetization or metagame or what
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:have you that's going to save it.
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:Mm hmm.
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:Right.
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:And for what it's worth, there are a lot
of games that don't deserve to be saved.
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:Um, so one of the things that I wind
up doing, not, not spoken like a.
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:Ex non profit person, Dave.
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:No, there are a lot of non profit
projects that don't deserve to be saved.
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:So, you know, ultimately using prototype
driven development is a way of essentially
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:finding out very quickly whether your,
your game is worth finishing, right?
357
:Um, and so one of the things that
I really push teams to do is to
358
:stack up and order Early kind of de
risking or pre production process.
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:Um, a fair amount of my thinking on
this is shaped by a paper by Mark Cerny.
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:Um, so he's the guy that created, uh,
Marble Madness and, uh, I think it was
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:Crash Bandicoot, many others, but, uh,
called the, the Cerny Method, right?
362
:Which is really about sort of separating
a project into a pre production segment
363
:where process is very loose, the team
works really, really fast, and really kind
364
:of gets the point where they can build
a scale model of a game that they think
365
:is going to be commercially successful.
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:And then from there you move into
production where the game is better
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:understood and you just kind of know what
you're building and you're focused on.
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:Just building that out in a much
more predictable, process driven way.
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:Right, like in one stage
you're, uh, you're figuring
370
:out how to make the dishes.
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:What are the recipes for the dishes?
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:And at the next stage,
you're making the dishes.
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:Yeah, theoretically.
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:I mean, I think development isn't quite as
rigid as that, and you need to allow for
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:learnings that occur later in the process.
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:Early on, at the very beginning
of a project, there are a couple
377
:of things that I like to try
to maneuver teams into doing.
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:So one is using some really tightly
defined rubrics to help them identify
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:what they think the core fun of the game
is going to be, and who the audience is.
380
:Right.
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:And why it's going to align to
really take a little time to step
382
:back and think about what it is
that they want to build and why.
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:And then the second thing, uh, so
that's, you know, kind of more of
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:design and production collaboration.
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:And that's kind of like, uh, aligning the
product with the audience coming up with
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:prototypical players, that sort of thing.
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:So what I do try to do is I try to get a
really simple kind of demographic profile.
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:Um, who do you think
you're building this for?
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:You know, gender, age, favorite
games, favorite TV shows.
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:Can we build a little picture of what
the content profile of the consumer
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:we think is going to like this game
is going to be, and then as we think
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:about what we're putting into it,
let's really think about how it aligns.
393
:But there are a couple of rubrics, like
one of my favorites that I'm actually
394
:working on a blog post about at the moment
is what I call the five fun factors.
395
:So, this is kind of something
I picked up at Pogo.
396
:Generally, the idea is your game
should have somewhere between three
397
:and five absolutely great, super
fun, highly repeatable things that
398
:your player can do, wants to do.
399
:And kind of knows how to get to so that
they're willing to crawl through the
400
:mud to do these great things that are
really exciting and compelling, right?
401
:And how granular do you get when
you're thinking about what a thing is?
402
:So I usually define it in
terms of a player action.
403
:So let's say you're thinking about, You
know, uh, civilization type game, right?
404
:Maybe it's, um, you know, unlocking
a new unit or building, right?
405
:When I get to do that,
it's really exciting.
406
:Cause I know now I can win fights.
407
:I couldn't win before I can make my
cities big in ways I couldn't before.
408
:So I want that moment of
unlocking to feel really good.
409
:Gotcha.
410
:And I'm willing to jump through
a lot of hoops for that.
411
:Um, you know, in a Civ game,
I probably want conquering an
412
:enemy city to feel great, right?
413
:I want discovering hidden
features on the map to feel great.
414
:So these are like abstract, a
little bit abstract, fun mechanics.
415
:Yeah, I mean, if you think about
them from a sort of mechanics,
416
:dynamics, aesthetics, yeah.
417
:They're kind of low end of
the dynamics level, right?
418
:Um, but yeah, these are, you know,
these are things where the player
419
:says, man, I want to do that again.
420
:That was great.
421
:Um, in my experience, if you're working on
something at the scope of a mobile game,
422
:and you're trying to get more than about
Five of those into your initial release.
423
:You tend to have a diffuse design.
424
:You tend to get feature creep, um, and
those big moments that you're trying
425
:to punch actually don't, don't sing.
426
:They don't get there.
427
:They don't get the hooks into players.
428
:Yep.
429
:That makes sense.
430
:You try to punch too much stuff
and you have a lot of noise.
431
:Yep.
432
:And if you have fewer than three and
you're trying to do something at the
433
:scope of a mobile game, you really
need to be on the lookout for, is there
434
:enough here to keep people engaged?
435
:And one of the things I find working.
436
:With many designers, especially young
designers, um, you know, so I mentioned
437
:i'm a board game nut, you know Board
games are very mechanically driven.
438
:They're very mechanically naked.
439
:They they kind of sit out there and
need to be Uh human moderated a lot
440
:of young designers really like to
start with very granular mechanics
441
:And build the game up from there.
442
:We're going to have this feature Right.
443
:That's interesting.
444
:Yeah, and so I found that actually forcing
the team or the designer To step back
445
:and say, well, okay, these are the things
that we think are going to be awesome.
446
:And then challenging them as to whether
the granular features they're talking
447
:about actually support the awesome, right?
448
:Do they, do they help that happen?
449
:Are they kind of necessary scaffolding and
infrastructure or are they gone, right?
450
:That's kind of the three baskets
I like to see for those, uh,
451
:those granular feature designs.
452
:Either they make the payoffs great
or they're connected tissue that
453
:you need just to be able to get
there or focus your limited time and
454
:resources on doing something else.
455
:Um, so, um, along with that kind of sort
of vision crafting process, there are
456
:a few other rubrics I use, but, um, you
know, that's a good one to start with.
457
:There's also a list of risks
for the project, right?
458
:And that's something that,
you know, is very producer y.
459
:A producer's number one
job is to manage risk.
460
:Uh, sure.
461
:That's, that's my My take
on the producer's role.
462
:You're trying to understand what the
risks for the project getting off
463
:course are and mitigate them as, as
best you can, as early as you can,
464
:um, to help keep things on track.
465
:So I like to see the producer having
really from the kickoff, a list of
466
:game killing risks and for games
where you're innovating in gameplay.
467
:Is this gameplay idea is
usually a top risk, right?
468
:Yeah.
469
:And in fact, even on games where you
say, well, we're going to take this from
470
:column A and that from column B and put
them together, often that interface is
471
:a bit of a stress point where you need
to make sure that System A from game X
472
:and system B from game Y actually fit
together in a meaningful way, and the
473
:interface you want to put in between them
is going to be comprehensible and fun.
474
:Yeah, and even that your version
of element X or Y came out well.
475
:Yeah, um, so what I like to do, so I
like to have that full list of stuff.
476
:So it may be about gameplay, it may
be about technology, it may be about
477
:validating that an audience exists.
478
:Yeah.
479
:That you think is out there,
uh, it may be about developing
480
:a visual style for the game.
481
:Looking around and saying, okay, what
is, what are all the risks that can
482
:just, you know, take my, my game out
of the air with a single bullet, right?
483
:And then, as a good producer, you
want a mitigation plan for that.
484
:For all of those for gameplay issues,
it's usually a prototype of some sort,
485
:and you want that prototype to be as
quick and as cheap as you can make it.
486
:If you can do a paper prototype
that really answers your key
487
:questions, that's by far and away
the best way to do it, right?
488
:The designer can secure
some office supplies.
489
:Go off in a corner, make up some cards,
build the thing as a card game or a
490
:board game, play through it, and figure
out if it's going to work at that level.
491
:Take some pieces from one
of your 700 board games.
492
:They belong together.
493
:I actually have a separate drawer
of board game prototyping supplies.
494
:Okay.
495
:It's full of meeples and gems
and hex grids and you name it.
496
:Bingo chips, scrabble tiles, and
that's actually super valuable.
497
:Every designer should
have one of those crates.
498
:A lot of stuff, particularly stuff
that really involves real time
499
:interactions, needs a code prototype.
500
:When I am building a prototype
in code, um, I really like to see
501
:a very small focus team there.
502
:You know, a designer and a
programmer, maybe two, iterating
503
:really, really fast, right?
504
:The objective of a A prototype is to
fail fast, to make lots of mistakes,
505
:learn from them, move on, and keep moving
until you either get to a game that
506
:is going to work, is going to be fun
and playable and exciting, or conclude
507
:that you need to shelve the project.
508
:What, uh, what would be fast?
509
:What's a fast iteration?
510
:Uh, so for me, I like to try to
start with concepts that can be
511
:Playable in less than two weeks.
512
:And then I like to make a significant
change every one to two days.
513
:During like that two week sprint.
514
:No, I'm saying the initial two weeks,
the project is permitted to go dark
515
:because just to get your core systems
and mechanics functioning, it may
516
:take a week or two to get something.
517
:actually happening on screen that
resembles the part of the game
518
:that you were trying to address.
519
:Once that's done, I want a
significant change daily, right?
520
:I want to try stuff out, give
it a green, yellow, or red tag.
521
:Green being, this is awesome,
it needs to stay in the game.
522
:Red being, that didn't work at all.
523
:Let's not go back there.
524
:Let's, you know, learn from it, but it's a
dead end and yellow being, let's take this
525
:idea and revise it in the next iteration.
526
:But once you have something playable in
prototype form, I really like to sort
527
:of have the engineers hand off something
in the afternoon, have the designers
528
:play it in the afternoon and evening and
come back in the morning saying, okay,
529
:here's what we're going to try out next.
530
:For a 12 month project, I'm
kind of willing to let this.
531
:process go on for up to three months
after you get that first playable.
532
:So my rule of thumb is within a month
of having something moving on screen
533
:that, you know, represents the basic
idea of your game, there needs to be
534
:some kind of spark in the prototype.
535
:People should be playing it and
saying, I think there's something
536
:there, or this seems interesting.
537
:And, and by the time you get
to 90 days, the fund should
538
:be clear and well elaborated.
539
:People should be saying, this is good.
540
:Where are the other levels?
541
:How do I play more?
542
:Right.
543
:You should have people
hooked on your prototype.
544
:Now inside the prototype, I'm a huge
protagonist of using few, if any, assets.
545
:I use a lot of squares, circles,
triangles, a lot of text labels to
546
:make things clear what they are.
547
:Um, I don't want to put anything
pretty in my prototype because once
548
:you start putting beautiful art
into something, people get confused.
549
:Yeah.
550
:Yeah.
551
:Well, either they overestimate the
fun factor, if the game is fun.
552
:Overestimate how close it is to shipping.
553
:When I have an engineer that I'm
prototyping with, I asked them to write
554
:code that they would be ashamed to show
their colleagues in a review, right?
555
:The code should be literally embarrassing.
556
:It should be as slapdash
as humanly possible.
557
:So it can be done fast and we can
move on to the next iteration.
558
:Right.
559
:And I'd rather take a month of that.
560
:And then have the developer throw
up their hands and say, Oh my God,
561
:dude, this thing is such a mess.
562
:You've asked us to do
all this crappy code.
563
:I need three days to refactor it.
564
:Let them go dark for three days.
565
:I'd much rather have that than
have them try and architect and
566
:scaffold and make stuff pretty.
567
:Right.
568
:Or, or decide three months later
that now they need to refactor
569
:because they're using the same
code that they started with.
570
:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
571
:And the code for the prototype
should always be dumb.
572
:Always, always, always,
always, always, always.
573
:It can be hard to get political
cover for that in a lot of studios.
574
:So one trick that I've learned over
the years, you prototype in something
575
:different than your development platform.
576
:Oh, that's very interesting.
577
:Yeah.
578
:Like GameMaker or something like that.
579
:GameMaker, Defil, GameSalad.
580
:Um, there's a bunch of tools out there.
581
:So, you know, if you're going to make
a Unity game, prototype it in Flash.
582
:Anything but Unity.
583
:Anything but unity.
584
:That's a great, great trick.
585
:Yeah.
586
:And then when management says, well,
but we've got all this code here,
587
:you say, well, sorry, can't, right.
588
:Um, I am a big believer in
time boxing during prototyping.
589
:Right.
590
:So if after a month it is not
feeling like there's a spark, right.
591
:If instead of.
592
:This looks interesting, or
there's something there.
593
:People are looking at it and
going like, I don't get it.
594
:Or, you know, I think I hear
my mommy calling, right?
595
:Sorry, I have to go home.
596
:I can't play baseball anymore.
597
:My mommy's calling me.
598
:You don't want to give that
project a whole lot more time.
599
:Right?
600
:So in that situation, you might give
the team like up to a week to get
601
:something that has a little bit of grab.
602
:And then if they don't, okay, move on.
603
:Likewise, if you hit that three
month milestone and it's not.
604
:Fun yet it's not grabbing people maybe
another three week at the most and
605
:then if not you put it aside right
sometimes just like writing an article
606
:you need to write your rough draft put
it in your desk drawer for a couple
607
:of days and come back to it sometimes
stepping away from a prototype is.
608
:The best thing you can do.
609
:So mapping that back on to kind
of the cerny method that you were
610
:talking about earlier, would that
three month window be kind of like
611
:the end of the pre-production phase?
612
:Yeah, I like to, while the prototype
is in development, at the same
613
:time have some concept art going.
614
:If you need technology prototypes
because you have technical risk,
615
:I like to have those going.
616
:But at the end of that three months,
I really hope you can take a step back
617
:from the project and say, okay, we built.
618
:something to address all
of the game killing risks.
619
:We, we now believe that
the game can be successful.
620
:Uh, we've seen that it's fun, we've
solved our tech problems, we've got
621
:some art direction that we think is
gonna work for the target population.
622
:Um, now it's time to kind
of shift gears a little bit.
623
:So I actually have a kind of brief
planning stage that comes after that.
624
:Says, okay, well, given everything we've
learned during prototyping, now what do
625
:we think the product will take to build?
626
:And then a much more linear building
stage, where you are working in the target
627
:code base, you are integrating assets,
kind of elaborating through a lot of the
628
:less risky design or buttoning up details.
629
:One mistake that people make, and
Dan Cook, uh, who I think is just a
630
:brilliant game design thinker, has a
great article about this on Lost Garden.
631
:That completely shut down the creative
process after you get through that
632
:prototyping pre production stage.
633
:Um, and say, okay, well now we're
going to build this out exactly.
634
:And we cannot deviate at all.
635
:You, um, you wind up missing out on
a lot of good creative opportunities.
636
:Of course.
637
:So, you want to make sure that
you've got some wiggle room left to
638
:kind of learn more about the game,
learn more about the players, um,
639
:discover and improve as you go.
640
:But yeah, it's kind of, pre production is,
let's de risk all the, the crazy risks.
641
:Planning, let's figure out what
it's going to take to get built.
642
:And building, let's build it.
643
:And then of course, you know, this is
very much a packaged goods model, right?
644
:So the building kind of never ends
as you go into sort of endless cycles
645
:of live development and free to play,
um, and as you get more and more user
646
:data to sort of come into the process.
647
:What do you do if opinions differ
about whether there's a spark?
648
:So In general, kind of building,
uh, A competitive mobile game at
649
:this point in history is going
to cost you multiple millions.
650
:Yeah, I think a lot of people have still
not come to terms with that, but yes.
651
:Yeah, I've been doing some scratch budgets
for a potential project and even the
652
:cheap ones at this point tend to be around
a million and a half to two million.
653
:We're talking about free to play kind
of games as service style mobile games.
654
:Yeah, absolutely.
655
:So, you know, this is kind of what your
development costs you up to the point
656
:where you're ready to soft launch it.
657
:Um, and then, if the game looks like it's
going to be competitive, as you bring it
658
:to market, through soft launch, you're
going to need to continue to support
659
:that team, and you're going to need to
acquire users on some steady basis so
660
:that you can bring them into the game
to sort of, uh, Verify that players are
661
:behaving the way you think, um, that
the technology stands up and so on.
662
:And then, if the numbers look good
coming out of soft launch, you're
663
:likely to want a large launch
marketing budget on top of that, and
664
:that can be multiple millions again.
665
:So, Just ask yourself, like before
you would come out of pocket for
666
:the, whatever, three to five to 10
million bucks, it's going to cost to
667
:launch a top of market mobile game.
668
:How strong would you want your
proof and conviction to be?
669
:Right, right.
670
:It's a big investment.
671
:This is not, you know, let's, let's
take 200, 000 development funds and
672
:throw it together and see what happens.
673
:Right, but, and, but somehow
there still ends up being quite
674
:a bit of gilding the lily.
675
:I'm not quite sure what you mean.
676
:Meaning taking something that
doesn't have That heart of gold
677
:and dressing it up thinking that's
going to change change the outcome.
678
:You mean polishing the turd?
679
:Yes.
680
:Gilding the lily is actually a term
I've heard in game development to mean
681
:something at the opposite end, which
is kind of Taking a game that's really
682
:solid and continuing to work on it well
past the point that it's actually done.
683
:Oh, you're right.
684
:You're right Yeah, that makes sense.
685
:So it's taking something that's
basically done and continuing
686
:to work on it Yeah, exactly.
687
:So, um, you know, gilding the
lily has its own problems.
688
:Mostly that you can lose some market
incumbency and you have some additional
689
:burn while you fool around with stuff.
690
:There's a minor risk of breaking stuff.
691
:Polishing the turret is
a much bigger problem.
692
:Right.
693
:And, uh, yeah, let's, let's talk a
little bit about polishing the turret.
694
:Yeah, I have, I have polished
some turds in, in my career
695
:and it, it never ends well.
696
:Right.
697
:Um, at the end of the day, a game that
isn't fun for some meaningful target
698
:segment, isn't engaging, isn't retentive,
isn't something people want to do, is
699
:not going to be a financial success.
700
:Right?
701
:If nobody's having fun with your game,
you're not going to keep people around.
702
:They're not going to give you money.
703
:Um, I'm a big believer in, you know,
kind of brutal honesty about where a
704
:game is and what its prospects are.
705
:Um, but I do think that there are a lot of
games that should not go into production
706
:that do, usually for a few reasons.
707
:Um, so kind of typical causes
that I've seen are There are
708
:external contractual obligations.
709
:So sometimes you may have say a license
signed and there's a big breakup fee.
710
:If you don't deliver the product,
the product may make sense, or
711
:even just, you know, not delivering
a product is a PR nightmare.
712
:Um, I think the, um, You know, there are a
lot of reasons that show up kind of around
713
:other types of external commitments,
especially in public companies.
714
:If you've gone out and sort of
told the investment community,
715
:we're going to make a lot of money
in Q3 because of this release.
716
:Um, it is hard not to
release that thing in Q3.
717
:Um, but if it's not ready,
then not releasing it is
718
:usually the right decision.
719
:Um, and there's also a lot
of ego investment, right?
720
:Um, people are Hopefully passionate
about the games that they work on, right?
721
:I know that I work really,
really hard to make the games
722
:fun and enjoyable and grabby.
723
:Um, and when you invest a lot of yourself
into your work that way, especially into
724
:creative work, um, it can be really,
really hard to get enough perspective
725
:on it to be able to objectively say
this is working or this is not working.
726
:Um, and frankly, even if you
kind of know it's not working.
727
:It can be hard to admit that externally.
728
:Yeah, absolutely.
729
:Um, but it gets even harder not
to admit it over time, doesn't it?
730
:Yes, absolutely.
731
:So there's this sort of sunk cost
problem where The more you work on
732
:it, the more invested you become.
733
:So the more hesitant you are to kind of
judge that work in a really critical way.
734
:Um, so I think, you know, this is actually
something that I find myself doing
735
:with, uh, a lot of teams, um, is what
I call the emperor's new clothes guy.
736
:Right.
737
:So presumably you're familiar with
the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes.
738
:I have my own use of that
term in game development that
739
:I'll tell you about after.
740
:Interesting.
741
:Okay.
742
:So, you know, uh, for any listeners who
may not be familiar, the Emperor's New
743
:Clothes is a folktale about a very vain
emperor who, you know, kind of loves to
744
:be well dressed and, uh, you know, uh,
Taylor, uh, comes to him and the tailor
745
:is kind of a charlatan and he tells him
he's going to sew him a fantastic set of,
746
:of clothes that are going to be gorgeous
and the envy of everyone at the royal
747
:parade, um, and the king gives him a
fabulous sum of money and, um, the tailor
748
:actually just pockets the money and, and
makes nothing, um, King tells him that
749
:he's dressing him and that, you know, um,
he looks fabulous and that the clothes
750
:were invisible to him, but to everyone
else, they're going to look amazing.
751
:Um, and of course all of the King's,
uh, court and his supporters and his
752
:toadies tell him that he looks amazing.
753
:He walks down the street in the
Royal parade, everyone's, you know,
754
:applauding and like some little boy
comes forward and says, he's naked.
755
:Right.
756
:Right.
757
:And.
758
:All the adults around
him go, no, no, no, no.
759
:He looks great.
760
:The clothes are fantastic.
761
:Right.
762
:Cause they know the king is
very vain and they're going to
763
:be like, no, dude, he's naked.
764
:I can see all of you, right?
765
:This often actually becomes my,
my function on a team, right?
766
:Is to be the guy who really comes in
to sort of take a hard look at what
767
:they're building and make sure that.
768
:They have a realistic handle on what
its problems are, what its challenges
769
:are, and what they're gonna need to do
to it to actually make it successful.
770
:Um, Wooga, whom I did a lot of consulting
for over the last couple of years, um,
771
:recently released a game called Warlord.
772
:And this is a game I sort of
coincidentally touched while I was,
773
:uh, driving development on another
prototype there, or driving design.
774
:Um, the product lead asked me to play it.
775
:You know, I played it for a few minutes,
and I told him it was quite terrible, and
776
:And the game had been in development for,
I think, a couple of years at that point.
777
:Um, that it was, it was really dreadful
and I, I didn't want to keep playing
778
:it and that, you know, he actually
really needed to get out of production
779
:mode, get back into prototyping and
make the game fun or kill it before
780
:he really continued developing it.
781
:You know, they actually, to their
credit, went back and built, like,
782
:a gameplay prototyping team and did
a bunch of paper prototyping, built
783
:a bunch of, of board, board games,
um, played them out internally, and
784
:actually got the core mechanic to a
place where it was pretty damn fun.
785
:Part of that process, they brought
me in every few months to kind of
786
:help evaluate process, but I wasn't
a super hands on guy with that.
787
:But now it's, you know, a couple years
later, and I just heard from producer
788
:of that project, Uh, which, by the way,
uh, recently released, uh, worldwide for
789
:iOS and Android, and it's pretty fun.
790
:Check it out.
791
:And he just sent me a note of
thanks for saying that my kind of
792
:intervention in making the team realize
that what they were building wasn't
793
:fun and needed serious work on the
core game and the core engagement.
794
:Was one of the most valuable things that
anyone had ever done for the project.
795
:Yeah, that's great.
796
:You were the little kid.
797
:I was I was the emperor's new clothes guy.
798
:Like that game is naked
I couldn't see stuff.
799
:I shouldn't see on that game.
800
:That's not good.
801
:Well, I I think yeah having an experience
Hand like you give an outside perspective
802
:on on a product and development
can be just incredibly valuable.
803
:It helps It's one of the the services
that I provide for teams Is just
804
:kind of looking at a snapshot of
where the game is regardless of
805
:where it is in the development cycle
So i've done this with live games.
806
:I've done this with prototypes.
807
:I've done this with games in production
you know and often that's the beginning
808
:of a longer relationship where I You
Work with the team more regularly
809
:throughout their development cycle,
work with them to kind of mature their
810
:development processes, teach some of
these, uh, tools and rubrics to the
811
:team and help them apply it internally.
812
:Um, ultimately what I'm
trying to do is over time.
813
:Just sort of get the team operating at
as high a level as possible so that they
814
:can then, you know, just sort of, um,
unceremoniously boot me out and force
815
:me to look around for new customers,
uh, because, you know, they've, they've
816
:kind of downloaded all that wisdom.
817
:Um, but it's amazing how many
times it just starts with like,
818
:Me going yeah game is naked guys.
819
:Sorry.
820
:I've had to do that too.
821
:And I've also you're I mean You're
somebody who I've gone to when I'm looking
822
:for some wisdom on on a project Well,
you know, I'm kind of an omnivorous guy.
823
:I try to make a study of what's
working in the marketplace.
824
:What's the You know, kind
of the prior art out there.
825
:And so I just wound up over time with,
you know, 700 board games in my house.
826
:And I think I had bled production or
design on like 50 plus video games.
827
:I've now consulted on
dozens and dozens of others.
828
:I just kind of got this massive library
of things that work and things that
829
:have been done and how they work.
830
:And I'm, I'm often able
to kind of slot those in.
831
:Um, but you know, I, I
have a friend, uh, who.
832
:Works in the kind of
investment consulting space.
833
:Uh, games are one or two or three sectors.
834
:He covers does a lot of due diligence
for investors and helping companies
835
:that are trying to raise money.
836
:Um, and what he says is that he's
got now, um, three decades of,
837
:um, painful mistakes, you know,
in his bag of experience and
838
:high skill at pattern matching.
839
:Yeah.
840
:So by, by the way, just as an aside, the,
my use of the emperor's clothes analogy
841
:is for, um, working as a, as a producer.
842
:Um, when I was working as a producer
doing external development, you get
843
:into this situation where like the
executives, uh, at the publishing
844
:company and at a development studio.
845
:will agree to Ridiculous schedules and
budgets and they'll do it because It
846
:benefits it benefits the studio just to
have the relationship in the deal even
847
:if they know it's not going to work out
on that schedule and budget and of course
848
:the the publishing execs are often looking
for You know, for better or for worse,
849
:they're looking for the best, what they
think is the best deal that they can get.
850
:And so it leaves the producer in
the position of the kid saying this
851
:is not realistic and everyone's
just winking at each other.
852
:Yes.
853
:Yeah, absolutely.
854
:I've, I've, I've been in
those situations as well and
855
:unwinding them is always painful.
856
:That's what leads to the
come to Jesus meeting.
857
:Right.
858
:But you know, sometimes
maybe that's all part of it.
859
:Sometimes, what's all part of it?
860
:Like a project may just, Need
to get started on with a wink
861
:and have a come to Jesus moment.
862
:Oh, yeah, you know the more games I make
the Less I am fond of starting games with
863
:what I know are unrealistic premises.
864
:I Personally really don't enjoy it.
865
:Yeah.
866
:No, it's it's not fun and in fact
one of the things that I got to to
867
:be in the habit of doing as a person
Producer when I was doing some external
868
:stuff was inserting some cushion
between my budget and my contract.
869
:Because in my experience a really well
managed and really well thought out game
870
:goes over budget by about 20 percent.
871
:Averagely by about 50 percent and
poorly by a hundred percent or more.
872
:I ran those things pretty tight.
873
:So I just tried to give myself
20 or 25 percent buffer.
874
:Right, right.
875
:But it gets complicated right because
then a lot of people You know So then this
876
:average of 20%, for example, does that
include, does that include the buffer?
877
:Does that, you know, and, and it's
happening up and down the chain, right?
878
:So if you ask an engineer for an
estimate, are they including buffer?
879
:Uh, it's a, it's a funny, it's a
very funny thing, uh, to, and a
880
:very personal thing to know how to
schedule specific groups of people.
881
:Yeah.
882
:One of my favorite little bits of, um,
extreme programming, which was Right
883
:after kind of the Agile manifesto was
written in the next two years, a bunch
884
:of different really, really like tightly
defined and honestly kind of rigid Agile
885
:methodologies arose, and one of them was
called Extreme Programming, and they had
886
:some tenets that I didn't particularly
care for, um, for instance, every line
887
:of code should be pair programmed.
888
:Right.
889
:I remember this.
890
:I think the programmers were
supposed to like sit next to
891
:each other in some specific way.
892
:Yeah.
893
:Basically at any given time, one
programmer should be programming
894
:and explaining what he or she is
programming to the other programmers
895
:sitting over their shoulder
listening and offering feedback.
896
:For what it's worth, for super
tricky bits of code that are hard to
897
:get right, this is still valuable.
898
:But for every line of code in
a project, it's just overkill.
899
:But they did have a nice tool that
was sort of part of that Agile
900
:methodology that was about person
by person velocity measurement.
901
:The idea being for each person
on the project, you record what
902
:their task estimates are and
what their actual task times are.
903
:Not to be You know, punitive or,
you know, create trouble or show
904
:this up in a performance review,
but more to the point where you
905
:look and say, warning, truth ahead.
906
:Dave is a terrible estimator.
907
:Things always take, on average, 30
percent longer than he thinks they will.
908
:Then in the future, whenever
Dave turns in an estimate, you
909
:mentally mark it up by 30%.
910
:Yeah.
911
:Whereas you say, you know,
Jordan's a sandbagger, man.
912
:He always gets it done in
half the time he tells us.
913
:Then, in your own internal accounting,
you cut Jordan's estimates in half.
914
:Because, I know you're like that, man.
915
:I don't know if that's a
compliment, but I'll take it.
916
:Ha ha ha!
917
:That's actually a really useful
measure, and really understanding the
918
:proclivities of your team is important.
919
:And what I will say is, even if that
padding does go all the way up the
920
:chain, the padding goes up the chain
because it tends to get consumed.
921
:Because games are really hard.
922
:They're Less predictable than, you
know, kind of non game app development.
923
:They have colossal non functional
requirements that you have to
924
:account for, which is to say
they have to be fun, right?
925
:They have to monetize.
926
:So, you know, getting all
that stuff right is hard.
927
:And in a red ocean, like free
to play mobile games, you
928
:really have to get it right.
929
:You really have to get it all right.
930
:That is a red ocean.
931
:That, that ocean is so bloody right now.
932
:Yeah I definitely feel it some mornings.
933
:Well, um, you know, I, I know through
my experience working with you, and
934
:it's clear from our, our chat today that
you, you're a great person to bring,
935
:bring wisdom and processes to, to, to
the development of these sorts of games.
936
:I'm, I'm curious as we
kind of close out here.
937
:Where do you think the
new opportunities are?
938
:Where's the blue ocean in the
industry, uh, in, in your mind?
939
:Well, um, it's an interesting question.
940
:So I will say if you're looking
for, uh, for the gold rush, by all
941
:means, make some VR titles, right?
942
:Cause the funding environment over
there right now is kind of stupid.
943
:There's a lot of investors just
spreading a lot of bets on the table.
944
:Uh, there's a lot of platform providers
who are willing to take a bath in
945
:order to get, um, software made
for their hardware, right, because
946
:ultimately software sells hardware.
947
:Um, so, if you are looking to fund
a company that can implode in two to
948
:three years, I would totally do VR.
949
:Um, so, things that I think are, A
little more interesting and durable.
950
:Um, just let me, let me put a little
caveat on this, which is, you know,
951
:I've done a lot in my career by being
able to see what the next kind of
952
:down market platform was going to be.
953
:Um, so I spent years building kids
games and then games and browsers
954
:and then game on Facebook and
then, uh, now games on mobile.
955
:Um, the crystal ball on the
next thing right now is cloudier
956
:than it's been in a while.
957
:Um, we've kind of been on
mobile as the next platform.
958
:I have a couple of ideas
about things that may be next.
959
:Um, on the, you know, kind of sideways
side of the market, not the kind of down
960
:market thing you have for other reasons.
961
:Um, I actually find AR pretty interesting.
962
:Yep.
963
:So, just the idea that you don't
have to be fully immersed, you don't
964
:have to unplug, you can be in the
world, and gaming and enjoying, I
965
:think, is a really compelling idea.
966
:You'll certainly look a
lot less foolish doing AR.
967
:Mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
968
:Maybe.
969
:Tell it to Google Glasses.
970
:Um, no, I think, you know, there, there
will be potential to do interesting AR
971
:stuff that doesn't make you look like
you're doing a scene from Tommy, right?
972
:Have you seen the Snapchat glasses?
973
:No, I have not actually.
974
:They launched like, uh, I mean, I
haven't seen them in person, but
975
:they just launched a, um, Like
a sort of Google Glasses kind
976
:of thing to record, uh, snaps.
977
:Oh man.
978
:You're going to make me do a
web search while I'm talking
979
:to you on this interview.
980
:Check it out.
981
:They're trying to make it cool.
982
:You know, they're actually
trying to make that cool.
983
:So, um, for what it's worth,
I do also think, um, VR.
984
:Games may arrive at some point, but
it's a number of years out, and it's
985
:not going to be until non game VR
applications have pushed very, very deep.
986
:Oh, that's interesting.
987
:So, yeah, dude, like,
let's go to Paris, right?
988
:Or let's go home shopping.
989
:Let's go home shopping.
990
:Let's redecorate, right?
991
:Like, I'm going to put on
my glasses and start moving
992
:furniture around the living room.
993
:Um, but I think ultimately AR
is probably the better play in
994
:most of those spaces, right?
995
:Or many of them.
996
:But do you think that's
pretty far off too?
997
:Because it seems like that's a pretty,
a pretty big lift technologically too.
998
:Yeah, I do.
999
:But I think over the long term
for gaming, it feels like it's
:
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:53,870
got a little more potential.
:
00:53:54,460 --> 00:53:57,160
The trend that I see in gaming
is actually towards like less
:
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,060
immersion, shorter sessions.
:
00:53:59,140 --> 00:54:03,135
Um, and VR It's all about
plugging in and tuning out, right?
:
00:54:03,225 --> 00:54:06,825
I'm really interested in how
the, the sort of game market
:
00:54:06,875 --> 00:54:09,215
for wearables evolves, right?
:
00:54:09,255 --> 00:54:13,235
Cause this is another place where you
think about, you know, your Apple watch,
:
00:54:13,295 --> 00:54:15,165
you have it for other reasons, right?
:
00:54:15,165 --> 00:54:18,665
It's there to give you your notifications
on SMS, but if you can enjoy a little
:
00:54:18,665 --> 00:54:22,095
bit of light gameplay with it as you
go, I think that's super interesting.
:
00:54:22,205 --> 00:54:26,895
Personally, I'm really fascinated by
what kind of games you can do that
:
00:54:26,895 --> 00:54:29,625
are really, really concentrated in.
:
00:54:30,075 --> 00:54:31,525
Audio, right?
:
00:54:31,635 --> 00:54:34,995
Um, so one of the things that I'm noodling
on right now, so I'll just tell all
:
00:54:34,995 --> 00:54:39,115
your listeners so someone can beat me
to the punch, but, uh, working on some
:
00:54:39,115 --> 00:54:45,605
designs for what would a game that you
play entirely using audio, um, via the
:
00:54:45,605 --> 00:54:47,365
Bluetooth stereo of your car look like?
:
00:54:47,705 --> 00:54:51,625
I know that, uh, Dave Grossman
is doing some work in that space.
:
00:54:51,850 --> 00:54:56,450
I know a little bit about what Day
is doing and the creative direction
:
00:54:56,450 --> 00:55:00,150
I want to take for it is quite
different from the really narrative
:
00:55:00,150 --> 00:55:01,310
focused stuff that he's doing.
:
00:55:01,660 --> 00:55:02,230
Interesting.
:
00:55:02,370 --> 00:55:03,930
Well, I'm very curious.
:
00:55:03,930 --> 00:55:05,420
I don't know how much
you can talk about that.
:
00:55:05,940 --> 00:55:07,120
Probably about as much as I did.
:
00:55:08,565 --> 00:55:10,355
Well, when you're ready,
we're going to have you back.
:
00:55:10,455 --> 00:55:12,765
Yeah, we can talk about
that a little more offline.
:
00:55:12,765 --> 00:55:16,495
And then, uh, hopefully when I have,
you know, maybe a team and a little
:
00:55:16,495 --> 00:55:19,445
bit of, uh, money to, to explore
that idea, I think it'll be a great
:
00:55:19,445 --> 00:55:21,015
time for a follow up conversation.
:
00:55:21,105 --> 00:55:21,895
Sounds good, Dave.
:
00:55:21,935 --> 00:55:23,935
It was great having you on the show.
:
00:55:23,955 --> 00:55:29,050
I love, uh, Hearing your, your thoughts
and your, your wisdom always appreciated.
:
00:55:29,150 --> 00:55:30,380
Thanks for coming on Jordan.
:
00:55:30,380 --> 00:55:31,740
It's been a pleasure.
:
00:55:31,830 --> 00:55:32,830
Thanks so much for having me.
:
00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:34,680
I look forward to working
with you in the future.
:
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,630
If you enjoyed this episode
and my interview with Dave.
:
00:55:41,150 --> 00:55:42,590
Please consider supporting the show.
:
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It's very easy to do.
:
00:55:43,940 --> 00:55:44,660
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:
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:
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:
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:
00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:04,790
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:
00:56:05,125 --> 00:56:08,695
You can also reach out to me directly
if you have any questions, uh,
:
00:56:08,735 --> 00:56:12,085
about any of the topics we've had
on the show, jordanatbrightblack.
:
00:56:13,675 --> 00:56:13,955
co.
:
00:56:14,305 --> 00:56:19,145
You can also find links on the
blog, that's playmakerspodcast.
:
00:56:19,145 --> 00:56:19,625
com.
:
00:56:20,035 --> 00:56:24,185
And if you head there, we've got a blog
post with All the links to everything
:
00:56:24,185 --> 00:56:25,205
that we talked about on the show.
:
00:56:25,225 --> 00:56:28,495
So there were a lot of designers
mentioned, for example, we'll have
:
00:56:28,495 --> 00:56:32,555
all that on the show, the games,
the companies, and anything else
:
00:56:32,555 --> 00:56:34,275
relevant from the interview with Dave.
:
00:56:34,685 --> 00:56:37,665
So go ahead and check
out one of those things.
:
00:56:37,975 --> 00:56:38,925
Perhaps head to playmakerspodcast.
:
00:56:39,615 --> 00:56:41,645
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:
00:56:41,695 --> 00:56:43,095
You can learn about the guest.
:
00:56:43,645 --> 00:56:47,345
You can get the links to the things we
talked about, and you can also subscribe
:
00:56:47,345 --> 00:56:48,985
and find us on all the big platforms.
:
00:56:49,365 --> 00:56:50,070
So that's Playmakers Podcast.
:
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:50,700
Podcast.
:
00:56:50,700 --> 00:56:51,060
com.
:
00:56:51,530 --> 00:56:55,010
And with that, I will sign
out and see you next week.
:
00:56:55,230 --> 00:56:56,570
Thanks for listening to Playmakers.