The focal point of our discussion centers on the historically significant role of the kicking holder in American football, a position often overlooked yet essential for the execution of kicks. In this episode, we are privileged to host Timothy Brown, who elucidates the evolution of this role, tracing its origins from rudimentary practices involving mounds of dirt to the contemporary techniques employed in the game today. Brown's insights reveal the contextual shifts in terminology, notably the transition from the term "putter down" to the now-familiar "holder," which first emerged in the late 19th century. This exploration highlights the intricacies of football's historical development and underscores the broader implications of language and rule changes in shaping the sport as we know it. Join us as we delve into this captivating narrative, enhancing our understanding of the game through the lens of its often-unheralded players.

This information comes from his original post titled: Holders And Other Put Downs

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Have you ever wondered about that unsung hero that catches the football for kicks?

Well, the kicking holder is our special today and we have Timothy Brown here to tell us all about the history of splitting from mounds of dirt to catching snaps and everything in between.

Tim's up in just a moment to tell us all about it.

This is the Pigskin Daily History Dispatch, a podcast that covers the anniversaries of American football events throughout history.

Your host, Darren Hayes is podcasting from America's North Shore to bring you the memories of the gridiron one day at a time.

Hello, my football friends.

This is Darren.

He's of pigskind dispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal deposit of football history.

And welcome to another evening of Timothy p.

Brown@footballarchaeology.com sharing one of his many tidbits with us.

Tonight.

We have a really special one for you, Tim.

Welcome back to the Pig Pen.

Hey, thank you, Darren.

Look forward to chatting as always.

And I would ask the listeners to hold on because it's going to get better as we go along.

So far.

So far it's not very good.

Yeah, I was going to say a lot better.

We don't have to rise very far to reach that this beginning, but Tim is alluding to one of his recent tidbits called holders and other put downs that he had on footballarchaeology.com Tim, what can you tell us about that?

Yeah, so I mean, this is one where, you know, like most of my stuff, it's just something I can't kind of come across as I'm doing research on one thing.

So they, you know, they played four games there.

And so I, you know, kind of did a story on each of them, but their last game was against the Stevens Institute.

And in writing about writing that portion of it up, I was reading, you know, kind of reports from the front, you know, so the reports from the Michigan folks in, you know, their publications about what happened during that game or during those games.

And so they got out there and, you know, there had been some kind of, there's basically, there's a controversy about the holder on a kickoff or other, you know, otherwise, but, you know, generally holders.

And so as they were describing this process, the thing was, it was supposed to be that the, the holder was.

They were considered the holder offside if any part of his body was in front of the ball.

Right.

Now we allow an exception nowadays, you know, for the holder to, for that.

But anyways, so.

And they described.

So the, the term holder didn't exist at the time.

So they describe, they call this person the putter down.

And.

Okay, I mean, what else are you going to call?

Right?

I, I call that an ex wife.

Yeah, I'll put her down.

So anyways, this guy, so he calls him to put her down.

And I did some searching, never found anybody else who called him to put her down.

So that would have been a Michigan only thing.

But actually in the rule book, in at least, you know, for sure, a good part of the 80s and into the 90s, the person who held the ball for, for placement kicks and kickoffs was called the placer.

You know, so that in the rule book they call the person the placer.

But so, you know, that kind of terminology change stuff to me is just fascinating.

But one of the, you know, this whole thing, you know, kind of this whole story started because a reader had asked was like, hey, I've come across some pictures of people kicking off and they got a person holding the ball, so why would they have somebody hold the ball?

And it.

That was because football for a long time had a rule that said you can't have artificial tees.

And so when you, if you needed a tee, what you did is you gathered up, you know, loose sod dirt, whatever was around the field, you made a little mound and you kicked off the mound.

And so number one, that tells you kind of the condition of the fields at the time, right?

I mean, kind of rough shape.

Did they, did they have the.

You could take the back of your heel and just like kick your backwards and dig it.

Diggle.

Yeah.

So you could do the divot thing.

You could have somebody hold it for you or you, you created a T.

And, and actually, you know, originally that's what golf did too.

You know, they created little mounds on the, in the starter box, you know, to, to tee off of.

But then what people, you know, it was the language said it couldn't be artificial tea.

So what guys were doing is they'd make clay teas and, and bake them.

And so then it wasn't art, it was clay.

It wasn't artificial.

So then they, they tee off of these clay, you know, baked clay teas.

So then in 22, the NCAA said, no, no more teaspoon.

So.

And then you couldn't use tees at all until I want to say it was, you know, maybe sometime after World War II, but.

So if you want, when you were kicking off, you.

Somebody had to hold the ball.

They'd hold it, you know, on the ground and, you know, that was the only way that you could kick off.

I guess you could still do the divot thing.

And then, you know, obviously at the time they were like this picture shows, you know, they're still drop kicking a lot.

And there were no teas, you know, for field goal attempts, extra point attempts, you know, etc.

So I mean, it's just one of those things where it's, you know, it's a nitpicky little thing, but, you know, you can't imagine calling that person to put her down as opposed to.

Or a placer instead of the holder.

I mean, we know it's a holder, right?

And then just kind of the sequence of not being allowed to use any kind of artificial tea, you know, it's just one of those things.

You just can't imagine why they did that, but they did.

Yeah, I, I know, like from when I was playing, like in the 70s and 80s, they had those orange teas that had like the four, like spikes coming off.

I'm always sitting there thinking, God, if somebody gets tackled now you're getting impaled on this thing, it's.

They'll kill you.

You know, I don't know how they ever let those be legal, but they were.

Now when the, when the holders did that, I know there's like images of like, for fuel, goal placement, the holder is like on his stomach holding.

Is that how they did the kickoffs as well?

Well, yeah, I'm sure they did that a lot of times.

So.

So, so kickoff was different because that was a free kick, right?

Meaning the, the defense or the receiving team can't rush until you kick the ball or they can't, you know, I mean, they're not going to rush you.

Right on.

So pre 19, 22, 21, 22, they changed the extra point process.

And so until then, an extra point was a free kick.

So the, the defending team had to be behind the goal line.

And the kicking team, depending on whether they punt it out or, you know, where they position where they were able to place the ball, they executed a free kick.

And so the holder would lie on his stomach, and he put the ball, you know, between his hands, Right.

With one hand under the ball, one hand atop the ball.

And that.

Because as soon as the ball touched the ground, the defense could rush the kicker.

Right.

Okay.

So they'd lie on the ground, hole like that, and then he'd pull a.

Pull the lower hand out, and then the kicker would kick the ball.

Right.

So that.

That's why they did that.

And then.

And they basically continued doing that in most cases until.

Until the.

The.

Until it was no longer free kick.

And then, you know, then it was, you can run, you can pass, you can kick, and you still get one point, you know, no matter what.

And by then, they were.

Then they started treating the extra point attempt like a.

Like a placement field goal.

So rather than a drop kick, you'd snap to a guy who would then hold the ball similar to what we do now.

Right.

Initially, that guy would stand up, he'd be like, squatting, waiting for the snap, and then hold it, place it down.

And then eventually I figured it was, you know, and partly, maybe they just had better snappers because they didn't have this.

They didn't have the spiral snap, you know, for.

And so.

So anyways, they.

Eventually they, you know, they started holding much like we do today.

Okay.

Yeah.

If only in the Peanuts cartoons, if Lucy would have been able to use that method, she could have pulled it away even faster from Charlie Brown, you know, hands on each point of the ball.

But, yeah, that's too bad.

She didn't do that.

But you're.

I was observing your.

Your picture behind you.

Okay.

And it looks like it's a pretty thrilling play.

You know, drop kick A.

Guys are all over each other going on.

But I noticed up in the crowd, there's, like, four people in the stands in the field of play.

There's more people in their cars, it looks like, in the background, and there's a lot more people down beyond the end line.

There must be something.

Free hot dogs or something at the concession stand.

I don't know.

Yeah, you know, I.

I grabbed this, and there's even.

There's even hurdles sitting on the track right here, too.

Oh, yeah.

So I.

I grabbed this image, you know, you know, probably a year ago and just stuck it in my Zoom selections.

And so I don't even know what school that is, so I.

I don't have an explanation for it, but I'm.

Gonna go with the free, free hot dogs at the concession stand.

That's what I'm.

Yeah, probably as good.

But, Tim, you know, this is another piece of, you know, where you've taken a tidbit and talked about an aspect of football that we don't really talk mainstream about very often.

And you do this quite often in your tidbits.

Maybe you could share with the listeners where they can partake in some of your tidbits.

Yep.

Footballarchaeology.com It's a substack site, newsletter, blog, whatever you want to call it.

So either go there, subscribe, go there whenever you want to, or you can follow me on on Blue sky under the Football Archaeology name.

And every time that I post something new, I, you know, I post it on there.

If you subscribe, you would get an email in your inbox every time that, you know, I publish something new.

All right, Tim.

Well, we really appreciate you coming on here each and every Tuesday, and we'd love to talk to you again next Tuesday.

Very good.

We'll see you then.

That's all the football history we have today, folks.

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