We tell students they matter. We invite them to share their voices, describe them as future leaders, and assure them that their ideas are important.

But too often, we also ask them to wait.

Wait until they graduate. Wait until they earn the right credentials. Wait until the adults have made the decisions. Wait until some future moment when their contributions will finally be taken seriously.

In this episode, Dr. A.J. Ernst joins us to examine what happens when educational institutions care about students but are not designed to need them. Together, we explore the idea of deferred mattering—the ways schools can unintentionally postpone young people’s opportunities to contribute, influence, and shape the communities around them.

Dr. Ernst helps us distinguish between students being heard and students being consequential. A survey, advisory group, or invitation to speak may create the appearance of student voice, but genuine mattering requires more. Students need to know that their presence changes something, that their ideas influence decisions, and that their contributions have value now—not simply at some distant point in the future.

This conversation also asks us to look honestly at the design of our institutions. Are students active participants in the life of their schools, or are they primarily recipients of instruction, services, rules, and decisions? Do our structures create meaningful opportunities for agency and contribution, or do they continue to prioritize adult control and institutional convenience?

At the center of the episode is a simple but challenging question:

What changes in our schools because students are present—not simply because they attend, but because their ideas, experiences, and contributions matter?

Our conversation with Dr. Ernst reminds us that young people are not merely future citizens, future leaders, or future contributors. They are capable of influencing their schools and communities right now. If we truly believe students matter, our institutions must be designed to make their contributions possible, visible, and consequential.

Takeaways

• Students experience mattering not only when they feel valued, but when they know they can add value.
• Educational institutions often position students as recipients rather than meaningful contributors.
• Student voice is not the same as student influence; being invited to speak does not guarantee that anything changes.
• When schools defer student contribution until graduation or adulthood, they may unintentionally undermine agency, engagement, and wellbeing.
• Authentic student mattering requires institutional structures that allow young people to participate in meaningful decisions and contribute to their communities.
• Students should not have to wait for some future moment to know that their presence and ideas make a difference.

Follow Students Matter, LLC on Instagram or LinkedIn.

Connect on LinkedIn with each of us individually: Kathy Mohney, Michael Pipa, Dr. Alicia Monroe, and Dr. Grant Chandler.

To learn more about the Students Matter Ecosystem, stop by:

Students Matter

LearnHarbor

Until next time, remember: Students matter, and our choices should show it. Stay Oriented.

We tell students they matter.

We tell them their voices are important, that they're leaders, citizens, and change makers of the future.

But then we ask them to wait.

Wait until they graduate.

Wait until they have the right credentials.

Wait until the adults have finished making the decisions.

What happens when schools care about young people but are not designed to need their contributions?

Today, Dr. A.J.

Ernst joins us to explore student mattering, youth civic infrastructure, and the institutional conditions that quietly position students as recipients rather than contributors.

Because students should not have to wait for some distant future to know that their ideas, presence, and participation make a difference, a new episode of the Wheelhouse begins right now.

Welcome to the Wheelhouse, where we engage in the conversations that help us better understand the educational landscape and our responsibility for shaping it.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler, along with the Wheelhouse team, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Munro.

Throughout season 13, we are examining six conditions that can quietly pull educational institutions away from their purpose.

Drift, fragmentation, dehumanization, instructional erosion, future confusion, and a lack of alignment.

In our last episode, Tanya Manning Yard, Kiara Latimer, and Carrie Brown helped us confront what happens when educational institutions fail to recognize and honor the full humanity of neurodivergent learners.

Today, we continue that conversation by moving from recognition to to contribution.

It's one thing for a student to feel seen.

It's another for that student to know that their presence, ideas, and participation genuinely matter.

Our guest, Dr. A.J.

Ernst, is an educational strategist and researcher whose expertise spans youth, civic infrastructure, institutional design, and education policy.

A Teach for America Corps member and AmeriCorps alumnus, he has spent two decades building and leading institutions across the United States, Europe, and Asia.

He teaches and researches student mattering at Rowan University, examining how institutions undermine well being by deferring young people's sense of contribution.

That idea deferred mattering raises some uncomfortable questions.

Do students truly have a voice, or are they simply invited to speak?

Are they contributing to the life of the institution, or are they being prepared to contribute someday?

And can we honestly say that young people matter when our schools would operate essentially the same way without their ideas?

This is not simply a conversation about student engagement or another program designed to increase student voice.

It's a conversation about how schools are designed, who holds influence, and whether young people are treated as future citizens or as consequential members of their communities.

Right now, let's get oriented.

Good morning.

I'm Dr. Grant Chandler, and we are here for another amazing episode of the Wheelhouse.

I've been looking forward to this conversation, as I say every week, right?

I say that every week.

And why?

Because we have amazing people.

People, fantastic educators that come to the Wheelhouse.

And today is absolutely no exception.

Before we introduce him and bring him into the conversation, let me say good morning to the Wheelhouse team, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa, and Dr. Alicia Monroe.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Good morning.

My favorite humans.

Look at us.

Everybody's back in their home space.

Good to see Andy.

Yeah.

Good to see everybody.

Yeah.

Travels are, at least for today, ended and everybody is back home.

Everybody is.

Well, it.

We are midway through July.

I saw.

Last week, I texted Kathy because I like to ruin her day on occasion.

I saw my first.

I saw my first back to school commercial, and I was like, oh, my God.

So I had to text her and say that.

And she.

She did not respond positively.

Yeah, I ignored him for quite some time before I responded because I thought, why?

Why would you do such things to me?

Nobody should be harshing your July.

No, no.

I thought it was really, really nice to point out the commercial.

Yeah.

So nice, sir.

Yeah.

But she didn't.

She did not think so.

I didn't take pictures of the supplies when I was in the store and send it to you.

That have been fine.

You know, I am.

Behind the curtain.

The Wheelhouse.

Behind the curtain.

Grant torments Kathy about Back to school.

Yes.

Wow.

Well, hey, in all seriousness, this is going to be another great conversation.

We are following up on an amazing conversation with Chiara Latimer, Dr. Tanya Manningard, and Carrie Elizabeth Brown where we were talking about recognition, the importance of seeing and recognizing and valuing the humanity of neurodivergent learners.

Today, we're going to kind of build upon that, and we're going to really talk about moving from just recognition, which is critically important, to contribution.

And what does that look like when we create spaces?

Right.

When we align those six conditions?

Lack of alignment drift, fragmentation, dehumanization, future erosion, and I'm sorry, instructional corrosion and future confusion.

You have to say those really fast three times.

Right.

But what happens when we forget an important part of this piece, which is students and students contributing to the community?

So super excited that we have a friend, a colleague, an amazing educator from the great state of New Jersey.

Please welcome Dr. We'll call him A.J.

But formally Dr. A.J.

Ernst.

A.J.

Welcome to the Wheelhouse.

Thank you, Greg.

Really, really happy to be here.

So we're super happy to have you here as well, because I know that what we're going to talk about is not only near and dear to your heart, but it's important to us as well.

So shall we just dive in?

Why not?

I think that's a great idea.

So you often talk about describing institutions as deferring young people's sense of contribution.

What does deferred mattering look and feel like to a student from your lens?

Yeah, no, I appreciate the question.

I would start that by maybe defining mattering, because if I'm going to be completely honest, in all my years of teaching and working as an administrator, mattering was not a concept that had made its way into my reading or into sort of.

It's a recent discovery for me, and once I sort of learned it, I can't unsee it and wish I'd had the language to describe it.

And as you just noted in the previous podcast, you know, fully seeing kids is a.

And it really kind of comes down to folks see you, that you're important and the feeling that you're a contributing member, that you're.

You're significant.

And I think that that's something that's so important.

And I think we use the word mattering a lot colloquially.

We say it casually, like, I want to feel like we, you know, that I matter, that my.

That I count, that what I do, what I do makes a difference.

And I think that what to your question, institutions and what we've done with really good intentions, as we've been trying to focus on preparing kids for the future, that time that has been carved out into preparation has replaced present contribution.

And so when you sit with a young person, and so I kind of stumbled upon this working with young people, and you'd hear phrases like, oh, my real world, real life starts after graduation, or does any of this really matter?

Right.

Why are we learning this?

Is this relevant?

And I think educators themselves struggle to point to why the things that we're making kids do really have, you know, sort of, oh, that gets to the next step or the next step.

And so I think so much of what's happening are folks with good intentions trying to help prepare young people for the future and inadvertently undermining the sense that their presence matters now, which I think is a huge source of crisis and struggle for young People.

So how is.

How is mattering different than belonging or being listened to?

If people are struggling to think about that word in terms of how you're defining it, what's the difference?

Yeah, I think the easiest way to think about it is that if you walk into a room and no one acknowledges you, you don't feel like you belong there.

Right.

You don't feel included.

But if you walk into a space and people recognize you and they say hello, and they're just super excited, then that's.

That's belonging.

But if you're someone that people depend on, that you have a role that is.

Is sort of contributing to that group, that's mattering.

That's the sort of.

The distinction there is that people depend on you.

And that doesn't mean to mean to be like you're performing a particular service.

Being a caring friend that listens is a contribution.

So, you know, I think that these are all important pieces.

Inclusion and belonging are super valuable, and mattering is connected.

But that small distinction is that you are adding value to the group in some capacity, that if you were not there, your presence would be noted, that your absence, people would know, oh, wow, someone's missing.

We need that person to be here.

Yeah, I was really taking that in.

AJ with, you know, we talk about belonging significantly, you know, with the work that.

That we do, what we believe, and to take it to that deeper level and thinking about spaces myself, you know, with that, you.

You do feel like that you belong, but it isn't as deep as mattering, you know, so to really think about student perspective and the students that we've had on the wheelhouse that have.

Have shared that sense of belonging, but it really was that deeper level of mattering, that lack of mattering.

And so thinking about, you know, your.

Your work around deferred mattering, you know, well.

Well, later, you know, you essentially will matter.

And thinking about the students that we work with, thinking about my own children and how often that has been the sense without that language.

Right.

You know, so it's.

It's what is said in between and underneath.

So when you think about how educators can really understand that and knowing that what we do in the spaces that we have.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

You know, when you talk about that in a secondary space, in a elementary space, from the moment that these, you know, these little babies show up and we're responsible for them, what does that look like to matter?

That's a.

It's.

It's something I think about a lot because school, I think unfortunately most schools, and again, I don't want to speak in broad generalizations, are not built around kids.

And that feels maybe counterintuitive to say that.

But schools are built around adult needs, right?

And unfortunately young people and like we are not built for the institutional environment of schools, right?

Young people, you can see this with kids, they start trying to help as, as infants, right?

They're trying to help around the house.

They're looking for ways that's just, that's built in.

And adolescents in particular had real responsibilities and still do in many families.

And again, some of the research when they, you know, they were looking at a researcher, was looking at a farming community in Iowa.

And you don't need to tell one of the kids that they matter because like the evidence is standing in the barn.

If they don't get up and feed the cows, the cows don't eat.

So that kid, you know, and it's distinct from, you know, it's not necessarily fun, but that young person knows every day they have a purpose, right?

Purpose and belonging mattering is a pathway to these really important pieces, right?

And so I think when we think about schools, if you just think about the day that a kid goes through, is any part of that a place where they're needed, that like if they didn't show up, like truly something wouldn't go well?

And I think some of this is technology driven, right?

In good ways, right?

Where household tasks, technology have replaced those pieces so chores have maybe been supplanted.

And then also like good intentioned parents and teachers have said, you know, we're competing for these, a scarcity of resources, we're scared about the future.

So it's so much more important my kids, you know, studies for the SAT than helps out with grandma or you know, helps out with dinner.

So those kinds of daily tasks that kids were getting evidence that they mattered to others, we've kind of moved those away because of often really good intention practice.

But from a school perspective, I think we really need, and I think the podcast frequently you guys talk about this around alignment.

I think we espouse a lot of things that sound right and feel right.

But the design of the entire school day is not built for young people to feel like they're needed.

Instead they, they're emphasized around compliance.

There's content that's been decided that what they need to learn and their job is to memorize those things, not ask really good questions or think about how they might solve big problems.

There are wonderful schools though that do Things, and I think have initiatives that often get kids into the community.

They connect them with organizations to tackle real challenges and problems.

And then outside the school, I think families and parents can connect kids with opportunities like jobs and service opportunities, and just around the neighborhood where they can have real evidence that they matter.

So I think there are ways to do that.

There are evidence.

But I think, unfortunately, traditional schooling is not built for kids.

So I think I was going to ask you to say that again, and you just did.

Right.

Traditional schooling isn't built for kids.

Isn't that.

I mean, what an interesting thing to say.

And it's so true.

Right?

It's really built for adults.

It's really built for adults.

When we think about those six conditions, lack of alignment is right there.

It's screaming, right?

If traditional schooling is built for adults, not for the students that Kathy will say we are so privileged to serve, then we begin this whole process with a complete and utter lack of alignment.

And that's where drift and dehumanization and everything else comes from.

I'm reminded a bit of the work that I've done.

I know many of us in this conversation have done where, you know, if a district is wanting to take a look at climate and culture and they seize upon the practice of focus groups.

And we put together a series of questions to talk with students about, and we solicit student input and student voice again and again.

My experience has ended up, at some point, including students looking at me and saying, you're not the first person who's asked these kinds of questions.

And this isn't the first time I've given my true thoughts and feelings about those questions.

But will it be the first time that somebody invites us to do something about it?

Because that's never happened.

And it kind of speaks, AJ to how schools are designed.

And even when we do give opportunities, our intention isn't to build on them, to act on them, to be impacted by student contribution.

To see that as vital.

Michael, it's huge.

It's also my third question.

Right.

So you led there beautifully.

Right.

A lot of times when we talk about student voice, we.

We're just talking about it from this symbolic lens.

Oh, wait, we should probably ask students, blah, blah, blah.

We ask the question.

We do this survey.

We don't do anything with it.

We turn it in.

Because some state requires that we do empathy surveys.

Right?

And so we do all of that.

So how do we move, A.J.

How do we move from this symbolic.

I'm gonna go there.

A little bit of a Waste of time, conversation around student voice and actually make it consequential.

Yeah, it's a, it's something I think about a lot.

And I do think there are, there's a wonderful organization, XQ Schools Institute, and they go around and I think they're redesigning.

High school is a big primary focus of what they do.

And it is.

They operate within public schools and they re, you know, vision different spaces and they get kids genuinely involved.

And I think to your point, it's about the action, right?

It's the actions that take place afterward.

There's so much lip service, there's so many strategic plans done that then sit on the shelf.

And I think that a lot of it comes from the pressures.

Right.

So part of the piece is also this needs to be a total community piece, right?

You need families engaged in this conversation.

Because I think a lot of this comes from fears that kids won't have opportunities.

And there are a lot of assumptions, I think, made by busy parents that they have to know these things.

We need calculus.

Everyone's got to get calculus.

We got to get that done, you know, And I think that I, and I imagine everyone on this call live in the world of schools and education.

And so we are well immersed, I think, in many of the sort of like, where did these, where did the curriculum standards come from?

That's not something, I don't know if it's common knowledge and you're a busy parent.

I don't know if you're sitting there and you're just hoping, well, this worked out, this should work out, this should be something that will pay off.

And I think now, obviously AI has only sort of amplified the conversation that it might not pay off, right?

The skills of the future, what they might be, you know, this sort of model.

I don't know how, how confident we should be in it.

So I think engaging parents and families in conversations from.

From the get go about what should we be doing, what should the purpose of school.

It's a really hard conversation, but every other conversation is just really punting it down the road.

And then you're going to do like a new math curriculum.

It's not.

That's not enough.

That's not going to do it, right?

So I think we need real transformative conversations.

And again, students should be at the center of it.

And people love saying that.

People love saying, oh, students at the center.

But look at the school day and have kids Engage with it.

And do you like this?

Is this good?

And if the kids aren't part of the conversation that you're having, that's probably a good indicator that your school is not going to be student centered.

If the kids are not even engaged in the combo, and then we're not held accountable to kids.

All the accountability systems are to the, you know, to the state, they're not to the kids.

And I think that's the young people.

We should be helping people, too.

And I worry about how much young people are just left out of the conversation in most places.

It's interesting, Dr. Ernst, that we're talking about it because I'm looking at mattering from a different perspective now.

However, when I look at mattering and the construct of humanity and mattering, I look at the core, which is around identity.

And are we asking students, how do you matter?

Do you value me?

Do you see me?

Do you hear me?

And that's where it actually goes into student voice.

But are we even asking students, how can schools make you feel like you matter?

We don't engage students in those conversations.

Am honored by the privilege to see your perspective.

But I also want to add the nuance of identities to the conversation because I think that shifts a lot of how we handle and approach mattering versus belonging in transformative learning spaces.

Absolutely no.

And again, it's such a. I think the emphasis.

Yeah.

The small part that again, as you're speaking to mattering is this broad concept.

And I think that my small area that I've been focusing on, as Grant noted, is the contributional piece.

Right.

And I think that, that as particularly with adolescents, right.

Because with young kiddos, right.

They're seeking for that is anyone.

Can you see me?

Can I get my attention?

Am I important?

Look at me.

Those.

And I think those are incredibly important things.

And when kids don't feel like anyone notices them and that they're not important, it's devastating.

But I think, as you know, and this small area that I've worked in, it just.

I've worked primarily with teens and young adults, is that they're seeking something to add value into that broader sense of the community, to get their peer acceptance and their acceptance from the broader community.

And so much.

So much of what we've done with young people, we've extended adolescence, right.

And postponed a lot of the sort of milestones of adulthood for young people.

And some of that's wonderful, right?

Some of that is wonderful to have sort of this long childhood.

But that doesn't mean the Human, like the human brain has processed that.

And so when we postpone so much of those sort of real pieces of evidence that I'm a legitimate member of this community.

And I always think about this.

When I was, I was a high school Principal, I had 18 year olds that had jobs.

They could vote, they could join the military, but they had to ask permission to go to the bathroom.

And that is just such a mismatch.

And so even in college, right, where they're again, these are full adults, they're living away from home.

But so much of the model of higher education, particularly with boarding school in particular, it feels like a disconnected from reality space.

Right.

They're not integral to the design.

They're a customer.

Right.

They're paying money for a service.

They're not a member of that community.

And I think a lot about a lot of the work I look at now is around civics and I think at some point in the conversation we'll probably chat a little bit about that today.

Is that like full membership of a community citizenship.

That membership piece is denied of kids so often.

There's so they're not the spaces we have where local decisions are made about the community in town are not designed for young people.

They're not inviting.

And we don't.

We should be making citizenship inevitable.

Not something that's like, oh, you're 18, you can vote, good luck.

You know, that's how, that's how the government works.

That's how this all operates.

That is not.

We have them until they're, you know, 18 years old and maybe they get to learn how a bill is made.

I don't that that's not how local, the local community operates and there's such a missed opportunity there.

I think that with that I think some folks are doing, but way more schools should be doing.

So before we jump into the civic piece, which I really want to get to in this conversation, I want to talk about traditional school design for a moment.

If you would just highlight a couple of examples of where you think the traditional school design, you know, which is several hundred years old now, we haven't really changed much, really, really focuses on students as recipients instead of students as contributors.

Can you think of a couple of examples of this traditional school design?

Because you know, the wheelhouse is all about blowing that up.

Right.

So what are some examples of the traditional school design that you think really tends to put students in the box of recipient rather than contributor?

Yeah, I think the first again we can talk about and should and I think there should Be an intentional.

I think your podcast does this and I want more folks to understand the history of how schools were made.

Not that there was this thing that was just like given to us and this is how schools must be.

No, that's not the case at all.

We have a very specific industrial era design.

Right.

It's a sorting.

1910 Is 116 years ago.

I just might want to throw that out there for anybody who's doing the math.

And I'll let you guess what those guys looked like, who decided these things and what it was for.

And there's unfortunately just a history of what Scott, again, schools just existed as this sorting mechanism and it still does.

Right.

And you can't be an engineer of sorting and an engine of equity.

Right.

You can't be equal opportunity and oh yeah, everyone here has equal opportunity.

And then also, you know, pay for schools with local property taxes.

There are design elements here that just are absolutely not compatible with the values that we espouse, at least as a country.

Right.

Whether we fulfill those things is a whole nother question.

But I think when we talk about like design elements, as far as what you're asking, what would it mean?

I think student agency, right?

Like that's where I keep coming down to is that when I think about myself and if I would ask any adult to go, okay, you want to learn something?

What does that look like for you?

Does that look like you get up at 5:30 in the morning, 6am to catch a bus and then you get into school and you eat a pretty nutritional deficient breakfast and then you sit down and do a series of six disconnected subjects for 45 minutes that someone else decided on what timetable?

I mean, none of, literally none of this makes sense.

And ideally you're sitting in a like uncomfortable plastic chair in a room with 29 other people.

You know, I, I, it is, it's so crazy that like, and again, myself included, right?

Cause I was a teacher where you're just like, this is what we do.

And if you step back from it and you just realize how preposterous any of this is, it's just insane.

And like, I think what I struggle with is that there is such an entrenchment through policy and ultimately who has the power is adults.

And so the conversations are teachers, administrators, and local community members all arguing from everything around budget to work hours to what they should all look at.

None of it is ever with young People going, what makes sense for you?

How do you learn best?

What are you interested in?

And how do you even allow young people to have the space for that if they're constantly berated with this urgency of deficit that we throw at kids?

And since COVID it's just been turned up a notch where it's like everyone's behind, everyone's behind.

It's baffling to me.

Behind it.

What?

Who decided when algebra happens?

Like, it's like someone, you know, divine down like algebra must happen at this age.

What.

Who, who made that decision?

It's just all of this is preposterous that the idea there's a third grade level of reading, none of that.

We all made that up.

We made up what third grade was.

We made like there.

So I think that we have to demystify the structure because we defend the structure that we made it all up.

We have the ability to make something completely different up.

When we made up the thing kids and caring for kids was not at the center of that conversation.

That was all about like, again, status and structures and exclusion.

We have completely different and better, I think, values at this point.

I'm not saying everywhere and all the time, but I think broadly there are really genuine interests to make school more inclusive, meeting kids needs, but the design isn't for that.

And we have to absolutely change how we do school in America.

I feel like here's the point where I need to bust in and defend the status quo, because the revolutionary nature of not only bringing students into the conversation about what works best, but prior to that, you've laid out, AJ that those determinations used to be in the hands of people that the system already served and the system reflects what works for them, not what works for kids.

And so I just feel this sense of upheaval and revolution when we put kids at the center of these things.

And I feel like I need to report our conversation to the authorities.

I love that.

Yes.

I recently watched a documentary comparing prisons and schools and really understanding that they're designed in the exact same way.

And so we could have an even deeper philosophical conversation about the prison system and all of those things.

But understanding that it's really that compliance driven schedule, I'm going to say, thou must do this at this time and move forward and all of these things that you're saying.

So all of those pictures from that documentary are just flashing through my mind right now, AJ as you talk through all of these just ridiculous examples of what we do and what we continue to impose upon children.

And adults within those systems.

So, Kathy, I'm glad you tabled the school to prison pipeline.

Oh, my gosh.

Not going there, Alicia.

No, you don't want to get me into that.

Right.

We're focusing on AJ Today anyway, but I think students are speaking to us.

I just don't think we're listening and seeing it in ways that are status quo.

Michael, if you're looking at chronic absenteeism, latenesses, lack of engagement in school, students are speaking.

We're just not willing to hear what they're saying and process it.

Students are.

We have our first and second digital learners sitting in those plastic chairs.

AJ yeah.

And what they're saying to us is that, hey, lady or man standing in the front of the classroom, Sage on the stage, not facilitator of learning.

If you don't teach me, I'll teach myself because I will Google, Bing, Safari, ChatGPT, Claudette.

Right.

I will ask.

I will rather ask my peer rather than to ask you, because most of the time, lady, man, sage on the stage, you.

You may not be prepared for the lesson.

And we can tell.

What I'm saying is, is that we have to be really in a position to own our stuff.

So if we are not prepared, if we don't have the pedagogy, if we don't have the practice, if we don't grow professionally and we don't see capacity building as number one on our list of things to do, where are we actually positioning ourselves to be in a space where students do matter, where we're trying to understand them, where we want to affirm them.

But maybe our curiosity needs to be quelled because we need more capacity building and professional development to understand the students that we serve.

I think we're asking ourselves the wrong questions, but because we are in a traditional system and the system is driving us instead of us driving the system.

But our students are speaking.

We just choose not to listen.

I agree with that totally.

And in another life, the school to prison pipeline is a big focus of my work and research, and I do think it's connected directly because it gets to your point where the kids are speaking.

Right.

And when kids are the problem.

Right.

That's what school discipline is.

Right.

And I'm not saying that there aren't real behavioral.

I'm not, I'm not.

I'm not.

If we hold that for a second.

Right.

But if the goal is.

If I'm a teacher and I'm held to these math standards and getting kids to do the math standards, a Kid just rocking his chair is disrupted to learning, even though we know that kids need to move to learn, we need to move to learn.

But all of a sudden silence and compliance becomes the focus and the kid becomes the problem.

Right?

And so that's why school discipline, I do think it's.

To your point, it's connected.

The kids are speaking, right?

Whenever I hear the chronic absenteeism conversation, you know, I'm like, yeah, school sucks.

You don't have anything valuable here.

And when I hear the defense of school and you ask adults where, like, school wasn't that bad for me, I go, okay, well, what did you like about school?

They list things that are not classroom environment.

It's the theater show, it's the choir, it's sports.

What do those things have in common?

Kids have agency, they contribute.

And if they weren't there, their presence would be noted.

Right?

Like these are the things that matter to them because they have the real opportunity to demonstrate real, like to actually have a full participation rather than they're one of the people in the class has to memorize some random thing that has no connection to real life at any capacity.

Maybe abstractly down the line it might lead to a good opportunity, although AI has certainly undermined that completely and I think is exposing just this game of school as this series of hurdles that we've created that feed into an arbitrary thing called higher education, which again, I'm not saying without its merits, right.

Real research and job training.

But, but is this the best and most efficient and cost effective way?

No.

We're saddling kids with lifelong debt with not much of assurance that they're going to be able to ROI on that thing for what feels like a status of, oh, I've achieved something while then simultaneously belittling people that are just in the workforce.

Right?

We've said, oh, you're in the workforce.

The high school diploma is completely meaningless.

Completely meaningless.

We give an unfunded mandate to achieve this upper class status that is arbit.

I mean, it's.

I could go down the rabbit hole here, but the whole thing, and I totally.

The kids are giving us feedback.

It's broken.

We have to respond to this or else we can't be also surprised when so many of them are struggling.

You know, you hear a headline, kid, young people are struggling.

Is it this?

Is it that?

Have you, have you looked at the world we've allowed them to persist in?

Have we taken a moment and looked at the world we've given them and said, why are they so hopeless?

Look at what we've given them every day.

So fundamentally, right.

This conversation is about so many really powerful things.

But one of the things that I'm thinking of, you know, over and over again is when will we be brave enough?

And this is what the wheelhouse is all about.

When will we be brave enough to redesign the system?

When will we be brave enough to build a system that is for students, with students, instead of doing things to them?

And I don't know the answer to that question, but I'm going to tell you this.

The wheelhouse will continue to.

We'll be in season 27 and we're going to be talking about redesigning the system.

Because I'm not giving up.

This is so important to what we do for the future of our children.

Right?

And again, couching all of this, there are lovely, caring, well meaning educators working in schools.

It's not because we're saying, nobody here has said that they're terrible people, right?

They're working in a terrible system.

I, I agree and I, and I think that a bit of it is, I think we all need a little bit of courage and we also need to.

There, there's something I talk about with mattering around just the challenge when we use big statements like change the world because it belittles the small daily contributions that we all can make.

But that's also true for parents, educators.

You know, when I was a teacher, I was in a very results oriented structure and a very limited resource school.

And even though the emphasis was so much on standardized testing, and again, I don't say this to give myself a pat on the back, there is a lot of wiggle room within a classroom space to make kids feel like they're present, giving them like the microphone, giving them the opportunity to elevate their voice.

So I do think that everyone can play a role and part of it is just having this kind of honest conversation and understanding where the levers are.

Kids need caring adults to go to the school board meetings, to, to go to principals, to go to superintendents and demand more of them.

There actually is latitude and I think this is something that this podcast has brought up is that there are opportunities to push a bit.

You, I don't think, and again, I'm not asking folks to risk their jobs, but I don't think that you're risking your job to make some of these chases, these changes and more importantly, to make your case.

To make your case, go to the meeting and make the case for why these things need to change.

And I think that there is a palpable desire.

And I worry about public education in this country because I think there is a general consensus that it's not working.

And so you see more and more people opting out of the system.

We see states allowing for voucher expansion to opt out of the system.

And as someone who cares about so much about public education and how it's just crucial for a democracy to flourish, I also empathize with parents who feel failed by the schools and their kids are not receiving the education they think they deserve and want to take them out and go to the marketplace.

I get that.

I watch that in Philadelphia.

It's very easy for me who grew up in New Jersey to say, we need to invest in public education.

But if I'm a parent, I'm watching my kid in a school, it's not safe.

It's not giving them high quality education.

Who am I to say, yeah, don't opt out of that for something different?

So I, I really think we need to make our case and really need to tap into our communities and, and say, hey, we need to have a conversation about what this should or could look like.

Let's ask, let's at least be courageous, courageous enough to ask the question, could this be better?

How might this be better?

Because it's not an indictment of the people, it's the system.

But we, we, if we don't do something, then it is an indictment of us.

Absolutely.

So I know that we are limited on time and AJ we're going to have to have you come back because there's a whole lot of conversations I'm going to, on Friday, I'm going to twist it really hard and get you back on the schedule.

But I know that one of the things that's really important to you is this idea of youth civic infrastructure.

Do you want to just, I want to give you an opportunity to talk about that for a minute.

Why you think that's important.

How does it, how does that play into this whole concept of mattering?

And then I have one final question for you.

But I don't want to leave today without giving you an opportunity to talk about that, because I know that's really important to the work that you're doing.

Yeah, no, I, I, I appreciate that.

And I feel super lucky.

When I was a young person, you know, I was very lucky in so many ways.

And I also, like, was good enough at school, right?

I liked school enough.

I was able to get through it.

I had wonderful teachers.

And even though I knew it was a bit of A game.

Like, I played the game enough.

But I wouldn't say that anything felt particularly meaningful to me.

And it wasn't until I stumbled, because of a friend, into the.

The town's neighborhood center, which also ran the food pantry.

And the.

The person who ran it, who is a wonderful mentor, was like, oh, I'd love to chat with you guys about this other thing, but I gotta go fill 300, you know, grocery bags for tomorrow's distribution.

And, you know, I'm, you know, at this point, 18 years old and just completely dumb as coming with the territory, I suppose, and.

And just unaware, I'd say.

And he engaged me in this really welcoming sense and was like, you know, it's like, well, if you help me, we probably could finish it earlier.

This takes me a couple hours.

If you help out, that would be less time.

And in that conversation and, you know, I go, well, who.

Who's responsible for this?

Like, who does this?

Because this is a lot for you.

And he was like, well, I don't know.

You could.

You could be part of it.

It's really anyone in the community who thinks that this is important.

And so that then started this journey of getting young people engaged in local operations.

And then that was just a sort of a continued question that I asked, like, who cleans the parks?

You know, who's in charge of making sure the water is clean in this town?

Those kinds of questions were just things that were great privileges of mine that I didn't have to ask, but are the sacrifices and contributions of people that came before me.

And so I think that these are the questions that we need to put in front of young people, because I think it's more likely that a young person might be able to list off something like the Strait of Hormuz or, you know, a conflict in Ukraine.

But if you say to them, hey, do you know how many people in your town have to deal with food insecurity?

I don't know.

I don't know.

And that's something they actually have a real opportunity to make a tangible difference in.

And this is where I put schools in the hot seat, because this is where I think, you know, there is.

And again, I would love to see a world where we release schools from some of these narrowly defined standardized assessments.

But I don't want to let perfection be the enemy of progress.

And so let's tackle civics.

Let's reinvent civics to be a full body, contact, experience.

Get them out there with nonprofits, get them out there with local municipal government, and the adults love this.

That's the thing is the adults, their parents and community members, they want young people and these are the future stewards of the community.

So if you want to prepare young people to take care of their community, let them do it now.

Don't make them wait, do it now.

Again, this isn't just also about like problem solving, it's about like embolding the things you love.

You love the arts, get involved in that, like that.

This is, I think some of the pieces that are just, they're just laying there on the table for us.

And this could be summer programs, after school programs, or just the civics curriculum.

Get young people, get em out there, get em in the real world, get em engaged fully.

I think that's the opportunity that I would really love schools to get sort of excited about.

So we're gonna have to dive more deeply into that.

Cause I think that's an amazing topic and one very, very, very focused area of this whole concept of mattering.

So again, I'll be twisting your arm on Friday to find a date to bring you back to the wheelhouse.

Again, I just want to end with one question just for everybody who's listening.

What is one question that you think education leaders should ask to determine whether students truly matter within their institution?

It's July, school starts soon.

Back to school.

Commercials are out there.

Kathy, what should, what should educational leaders be asking to find to determine whether or not their students feel as if they matter in their schools?

Yeah, I think the question I would say is does every one of my students feel needed?

Did they feel significant?

Do they feel consequential?

You know, again, I think it's obviously starts with a lot of the other things that this, this podcast talks about, right?

Just do, do kid, do.

Does someone notice me?

Does every kid uniquely feel special and important?

But I think that question I would ask everyone to ask, does every one of my kids feel needed?

That's a trickier one.

And I think unfortunately answers frequently no.

So that would be the question that I would love folks to just really center on as they get ready to start the school year.

I think it's a great question.

That's a great question.

And we know that when people feel needed, they engage and they show up 100%.

And I think that it's such a driving force, it's such a foundational element to sort of feeling like again, you're sort of what gives us resilience and stability and strength, I think stems from that ability that you feel needed.

You show up when you feel needed, it's such a driving force.

And I think folks who feel needed understand that completely.

So I wanted to talk about need a bit and I'm glad we got to that.

And it, it.

Need has to be defined right through our lenses and our mental models.

And I go Back to something A.J.

You said at the beginning of our recording.

We have to look at it in terms of hope instead of a deficit.

So if I am needed to be home because I am a caregiver for my siblings, I don't need you to pity me.

That's a real different lens.

That's a deficit lens.

I need you to look at the skills that I am gaining from that and then actually weaving that in to the concepts and content that I learned throughout my school day.

That makes it meaningful for me and significant.

And then I know that I matter because you have seen me, you have valued me, you've accepted my circumstances and have made an intentional step to make it part of my learning day.

That's a real different concept.

So thank you for talking about need because I tracked right back to how our conversation started at the beginning of the recording.

And I know we're, we're tight on time, but that just makes me think about one of the, if I were to say one of the big design elements that school.

There's a problem is the individual piece of it.

Humans are a relational species, right?

We are relational.

And so what your, what your example just made me think about is that if my, if school is about me and my self advancing goals, then my family obligation is a deficit.

Right?

And that rather than the idea that like if a kid misses school because they helped out with a sick sibling, someone should just be validating that there shouldn't be a tarnish on their record.

Oh, you missed a very essential day of learning.

And again I'm, I'm not trying to dissuade the value of, of important content and skills delivered to kids, but the idea, we've, we've missed something here because of this individual achievement versus our collective achievement, right?

And it's like, oh, you contribute in your family.

Amazing.

That's amazing.

Period.

There is nothing more like what a wonderful thing that is what we are supposed to be doing.

And in fact these self advancing goals, I would really encourage schools to start shifting them to be more about the collective goals.

Right?

And this is like some of the earliest quotes from like Ben Franklin on education that it's supposed to be about bettering the collective.

Right?

That's what this is all supposed to be about.

So when a kid is doing that now by helping out their family or friends, that's.

That's where.

That's theoretically what we're supposed to be only bolstering in school.

So when we treat that as a deficit, I mean, we have totally missed the.

Missed the whole thing.

We've missed the vote at that point.

I want to, Dr. Ernst, quickly go back to your question.

You know, asking students, do each student.

Asking each student, do you feel needed?

Do you feel that you contribute?

And if students are thinking about that in the school context and any student is able to say yes, I feel like as school leaders in any capacity, our job then is to ask the next question, which is where, when, how.

Right.

And that's how we elevate and uncover and raise up daily practice among all those involved in creating learning that invites students to contribute and gives us opportunity as caring adults to value them for their contribution and to let them feel mattering.

Those practices languish because as school leaders, that isn't our focus.

And that next set of questions that your first question invites really helps us center where those wonderful practices of mattering are occurring.

Yeah.

And I love that.

And I think that if there are teachers listening, I think a very easy way that you might do this in your classroom discussion is by recognizing the contributions to.

In the conversation, even it's.

It's actually quite the significant difference between going, great answer or thank you for that comment, to taking a moment and going to that student and saying, you know what you said?

Push the conversation forward today.

If you weren't here, that I don't know if we would have gotten that clarity on that point in the book or, you know, I saw you really helping out your partner on that math problem.

If you weren't here, they would not have learned that.

So there are actually lots of ways that if we are just looking for it and recognizing young people's contribution, they're going to get then more evidence that makes them feel needed in that environment.

So I think we definitely have to ask those secondary questions.

But if I was a teacher and going, I can't change the system, what can I do?

In the immediate sense, those are very clear, definitive ways you might go about doing it.

And that's exactly where I was going to go.

Because it can seem overwhelming.

It can seem that, yeah, we, yes, we do need to change all.

We need to change the system.

We need to do all these things.

But from wherever I am, as an educator, as an.

An influencer of education, how am I utilizing my space and in my role to.

To value the human that yes, Grant, I do say it because I believe it with my soul that we are entrusted to serve in whatever capacity that is.

What does that look like?

So that there is this sense of I matter.

I matter as a human.

And if I'm not here, that will be recognized.

People will know my absence will matter.

And how do I do that?

From my seat, my sphere of influence.

And with that brings us to the end of this episode.

AJ thank you so much for joining us today.

We're going to see you soon again in the Wheelhouse.

So for all of you who are listening, that's a wrap for today.

Have a great week.

We'll see you next time.

Today's conversation asks us to examine the difference between caring about students and creating institutions in which students are genuinely consequential.

Schools can be supportive, welcoming, and well intentioned and still position young people primarily as recipients, recipients of instruction, recipients of services, recipients of rules, schedules, interventions, and decisions.

But mattering requires more than receiving.

It requires knowing that your presence makes a difference, that your ideas influence what happens, and that your contribution is not being postponed until some distant future.

Dr. Ernst's work reminds us that young people are not simply future citizens, future leaders, or even future contributors.

They're citizens now, they're capable now, and they have something important to contribute now.

Perhaps the question for each of us is what changes in our schools because students are present, not simply because they attend, but because their ideas, experiences, and contributions shape the institution itself.

When students are continually told to wait, mattering is deferred.

And when mattering is deferred for too long, young people may understandably begin to wonder whether that institution ever intended for them to matter at all.

My thanks to Dr. A.J.

Ernst for joining us and challenging us to think differently about student mattering, institutional design, and the civic purpose of education.

And as always, my thanks to the Wheelhouse team, Kathy Mone, Michael Pipa and Dr. Alicia Monroe.

Until next time, remember, every student is distinctive and irreplaceable, and every student deserves the opportunity to know that their contribution matters today.

Stay oriented and we'll see you next week in the Wheelhouse.