Gag Orders, Supreme Court Appeals, and Presidential Immunity

Episode 62 • 15th December 2023 • Common Sense Ohio • Common Sense Ohio

Steve Palmer [: 00:00:00

Alright. Here we are. 12/15/23 approaching the greatest day ever Christmas, sort of. I guess you could probably argue with that, but maybe not. Anyway, it's Common Sense Ohio 12/15/23. Here we are again at the roundtable making sense out of things that are nonsensical. And how do we do that? Well, it's not that hard. You just have to apply some common sense.

Steve Palmer [: 00:00:22

And as I like to say, I like to make things simple, and almost everything can be made simple. All you gotta do is, again, apply common sense, and we are at commonsense ohioshow.com. If you wanna check it out, we have our old episodes up there. You can, subscribe to our website or, rather, subscribe to our podcast up there. It's just a link that'll take you to all podcast subscription places. So go ahead and do that. We are brought to you, of course, as we have said over and over, week by week by week by Harper Plus Accounting, where you won't just get your beans counted. You're gonna get your planning done.

Steve Palmer [: 00:00:54

I should I should develop slogans for them, shouldn't I? That video. Yeah. We are on video with Menormous pointing at the camera to remind us that we are on video. You were gonna have little shorts and reels or whatever they call them on all the social media platforms, and you can catch the whole shows. I think we're on Parler. We're on a couple of different places now. I don't know. We got photo Dan, taking care of the production on that end.

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:16

So, anyway, without Further ado, here we are at the Common Sense Ohio roundtable. I've got a special guest here today. You can probably see the back of his head, Drew Palmer.

Drew Palmer [: 00:01:27

Hello.

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:28

Good morning, Drew Paul. So Drew Drew is at Bowling Green. And if you didn't figure out the last names, He's my son. My oldest at Bowling Green University where the show is catching like wildfire up there. Isn't it?

Drew Palmer [: 00:01:38

A little bit. No. Hey.

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:40

Hey. Hey. Yes. Hyperbole. Exaggerate everything.

Norm Murdock [: 00:01:43

Come on.

Steve Palmer [: 00:01:44

Learn how to be a broadcaster. I mean, you know Anyway, Drew and his buddies listened to the show up there, and he's home Christmas break on his way to work here in about half an hour. But I told him to grab a headset, grab a mic, join the join the fun. Every single week, we've been coming up with a this day in history. And Drew, you added, or you reminded me of something I didn't know if that's a that's sort of a non sequitur. You you brought up something I didn't know, and that is as I was researching the World War 2, fact of the day. You know, what happened this day in World War 2. Drew brought up something else that maybe even be more significant than World War 2.

Steve Palmer [: 00:02:23

What was it, Drew?

Drew Palmer [: 00:02:24

The bill of rights?

Steve Palmer [: 00:02:25

Was ratified this day Wow. In 17/91. Virginia was the final state to ratify the bill of rights. And, you know, it it really anybody who is curious about, why we are so great, that's a great place to start. Go read the bill of rights.

Norm Murdock [: 00:02:40

No kidding.

Steve Palmer [: 00:02:41

In no particular order, check out the Bill of Rights, check out the Declaration of Independence. It gives me chills to read it. Check out then. Just just go whole hog and check out the constitution And find something in the constitution, the current version, that you don't like, and we can debate it. Because, if you think you're gonna rejigger it some way to make it better, good luck.

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:00

And, man, do we have 4th amendment, first amendment, and second amendment stuff

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:06

All going on

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:06

right now. Today.

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:07

Right now.

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:08

It's un I mean, just earth Chattering stuff.

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:11

Well, before we get there Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:13

Oh, yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:13

Let's do our World War 2.

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:14

Yeah. Before we get there. Absolutely, man.

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:16

t, Glenn Miller died today in: 1944

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:30

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:30

What, over the Atlantic?

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:31

Yeah. Or, you know, we don't know. Right? It could have been weather. I mean, but but we don't know.

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:37

We don't know. Yeah. They found the wreckage later, I guess. Yeah. And he's never or maybe they never found the wreckage. He's never been found. I didn't know that.

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:42

That I

Steve Palmer [: 00:03:42

I you know, that's just just one of those facts that somehow, I've avoided learning, or at least stockpiling in the crannies of my brain for a recall. I I I didn't know that. Yeah. So, yeah, that that was, I

Norm Murdock [: 00:03:56

mean, he that would be like when, you know, Like when Michael Jackson died or something. I mean I mean, he was

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:05

What was the New Year's Eve Buddy Holly, the airplane crash?

Steve Palmer [: 00:04:09

Yeah. Yeah. But on the music side Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:04:11

But to that World War 2 generation, I mean, Glenn Miller was

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:15

Yeah. That was a kick in the gut, isn't

Steve Palmer [: 00:04:16

it? The pop star of the time. As in, like, the superstar. And and and, look, the music still holds today. I mean, you hear it. It's sort of this nostalgia feel, but, Yeah. You know, that was it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:04:26

Does your does your item, Steve, say whether or not I think he was in the army, actually. Like, I think I think he was, like, a captain or something at the time he died. Was or was he just a, I Say just, I don't mean that. But or was he a civilian USO guy? Yeah. Because he he says Here's

Steve Palmer [: 00:04:46

what he says. He persuaded the US army to accept his service to

Norm Murdock [: 00:04:48

There you go.

Steve Palmer [: 00:04:49

Put a little more Spring into the feet of our marching men and a little more joy in their hearts. And for the next 18 months, Miller's 50 member band Stayed busy with morale building concerts and radio broadcast. No cause has ever been established for the loss of the plane.

Norm Murdock [: 00:05:03

Yeah. That's why. He was

Brett Johnson [: 00:05:04

a he was a major.

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:05

But then

Norm Murdock [: 00:05:05

he was He was in them. That's what I thought. He he enlisted.

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:08

He was on a C64 Norseman. It didn't have deicing equipment, so maybe that's it. They had some icy weather. Yeah. But, look, I mean, it doesn't that say something about the difference in culture then and now? I mean Oh, yeah. So we're in World War 2, and and the pop star of the day not only, is like, not not drafted and forced

Norm Murdock [: 00:05:25

Right. But,

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:25

like, joins

Norm Murdock [: 00:05:26

And in his middle age.

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:27

And takes his skill set, his particular skill set to add a little more quote. This is his quote. Put a little more spring to the feet of our marching, men and a little more joy to their hearts.

Norm Murdock [: 00:05:39

Right. You know,

Steve Palmer [: 00:05:39

Right. And and by the way, in: 1938

Steve Palmer [: 00:06:29

Right. But, You know, they they they made a determination that they can beat us on ideology over time. Yeah. And, you know, Marx said in, I think, the communist manifesto, The capitalistic society contains the seeds of its own destruction. Now, he didn't mean it the same way I'm gonna apply that thought. But It when I when I first read the Communist Manifesto as a young freshman in college, it didn't I didn't understand what the hell I was reading, I don't think. But, that quote never I never forgot that quote. And and, you know what, I I apply that now to a scenario where we have freedom of speech and expression and political speech, which, know, at least we think we do or maybe they're chipping away at it.

Steve Palmer [: 00:07:08

But because of the freedom we allow, it permits our enemies to infiltrate us with their message.

Norm Murdock [: 00:07:15

Absolutely. TikTok being a perfect

Steve Palmer [: 00:07:18

TikTok. And and with the Soviet's agenda so look. There are interviews of old KGB agents out there talking about how they're gonna take down the United States, and we won't even know it's gonna happen. They're gonna do it from within through ideology Yeah. And infiltrate our universities. And they made a decision to infiltrate the Democratic party, not the Republican party at the time. And they did. You know?

Norm Murdock [: 00:07:35

And they did.

Steve Palmer [: 00:07:35

And it's happened.

Norm Murdock [: 00:07:36

Question about it.

Steve Palmer [: 00:07:37

So, you know, does our society so it's not just that it's a capitalistic society, contains the seeds of its own destruction, but maybe our free society does in some way because For sure. We permit, On the face of it, we permit our enemies to have a say so and and and use the most valuable right we have, freedom of speech. And then ironically, Now that they have sort of taken hold, they wanna take that right away. Yeah. So we can't work it backwards. Yeah. You know, it it's so apparent Yeah. Looking back on this.

Norm Murdock [: 00:08:11

And then You know, we we talked last week a little bit about the 3, You know, Ivy League, presidents before congress that just Yep. You they had this huge blot in their eye that they could not see That, first of all, all of us are against these speech codes. But if you're gonna have 1, they're so hypocritically applied. I.

Steve Palmer [: 00:08:33

Well, that's it, though. So right. I I don't have a problem with a speech code. Look. I have a I have a there there are 2 issues we have to or 2 levels on upon which we should evaluate this.

Norm Murdock [: 00:08:44

And and since then, by the way, the UPenn lady was fired.

Steve Palmer [: 00:08:47

She was fired. Yeah. And and the Or resigning. Is being censored now and looked into for all sorts of plagiarism and different things. But, you know, the the first level is is can is it it free speech or not? And it's a private university, so there is no freedom of, quote, freedom of speech from a constitutional standpoint at private universities. If public, a different story. Yeah. But, you know, the government can't pass a law that impinges upon your freedoms, but private people can.

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:09

Now there might be Some other redress for that in the form of lawsuits and

Norm Murdock [: 00:09:13

Oh, yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:14

Private actions. But, you know, they they were when when the when congress is asking these presidents about the about, whether, a message to kill all the Jews would violate their policies. I I I'm bastardizing the quote, but we're screwing it up. And and they're saying, well, it depends on the context. I sort of agree with them, you know, on a fundamental level, it does sort of depend on the context if you're gonna violate their policies because if their policies say you can't incite violence and the the somebody makes a comment like that in sort of an open forum where it's not directly, inciting violence, or intended to. Well, you know, that may not violate the policy, but that's not the problem.

Norm Murdock [: 00:09:53

That's not the problem. Right? The

Steve Palmer [: 00:09:54

problem is when other speech that's clearly more egregious,

Norm Murdock [: 00:09:59

Or or just as

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:00

Or or not as egregious, I mean, clearly less egregious, they take action on. So, you know, if you go and say a man can't become a woman, you're gonna be kicked out of school.

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:08

And they did that at Harvard.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:09

They've done

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:10

that at Harvard. Right? And that, you

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:11

know, if you use the n word in a way like, that kid who used the n word in high school and it later came out on social media, and he's doing it in, like, the sort of the who's the concert tour we went to? The country guy.

Drew Palmer [: 00:10:23

Morgan Wallen?

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:24

Morgan Wallen. Remember, he got sort of he went through this this Yeah. He he got caught getting drunk with his pals and and and using the word in sort of the the slang way. But anyway, if you do that, you can be kicked out of school.

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:34

Absolutely. Okay.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:35

Inciting violence. It's nothing.

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:37

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:10:37

It is it is less egregious if anything. Or if you say, if you support, a conservative agenda in any way, shape, or form, you're gonna be censored at those colleges. So, look, it's it's not the policy that is the problem. Like you said, Norm, it's the hip hypocritical administration of the policy.

Norm Murdock [: 00:10:58

Exactly right. And it and it point and it points out the indoctrination that has been happening on campus. Yes. That's the only reason I brought that up Is is to reinforce your point that the commies, you know, or socialist, whatever you wanna call

Steve Palmer [: 00:11:12

They have free speech.

Norm Murdock [: 00:11:14

I'm yeah. I mean, they can do whatever they want. And, quite clearly, there is a tie between the Chicoms And Hamas and Iran. There is this back channel of antifreedom across the globe where they wanna censor People who heretofore have had, these bill of rights.

Steve Palmer [: 00:11:39

Well and and, you know, again, We sort of take draw this parallel. You know, we have created a freedom that Drew brought up, you know, in in our bill of rights on this day in 17/91.

Norm Murdock [: 00:11:48

Big time.

Steve Palmer [: 00:11:49

The and there's more to say about that. But, you know Right. We create a freedom.

Norm Murdock [: 00:11:52

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:11:53

And and later on, it's used as a that very freedom is used as a weapon against us. And then once The weaponizers take over, or gain a foothold. They wanna get rid of the freedom.

Norm Murdock [: 00:12:03

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:12:04

Because that's what they use to gain a foothold. They don't want any and I don't even know that they they They understand that's what they're doing intentionally, but it is what they're doing.

Norm Murdock [: 00:12:13

The British, you know, who we defeated Or who our forefathers defeated. The British have this phrase they call Selling you a dummy. And what they mean that by that is, like, selling you a a bill of goods.

Steve Palmer [: 00:12:29

Yeah. Yes.

Norm Murdock [: 00:12:29

Selling selling you something making you adopt Their point of view and then using it against you as you just said. Right. And, you know, like, a perfect example of that it this week was the mayor of Boston, mayor Wu Yeah. Who Decided to

Steve Palmer [: 00:12:48

This is awesome.

Norm Murdock [: 00:12:48

Oh, I mean I mean, it's just it's it she issues this this Christmas party invitation Intending it for be to only be for nonwhites, specifically, even though she's married

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:01

have a government sponsored

Norm Murdock [: 00:13:03

Christmas party.

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:04

A government sponsored Christmas party only for black people Right. That are, and it's by special invite. Well, she screws up.

Norm Murdock [: 00:13:10

And she had to disinvite, Like, 6 council persons who are white on the Boston City Council.

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:17

There there some of the replies are great. It's like, well, I mean, I understand. I'd like to come to the party, since I don't Right. You know?

Norm Murdock [: 00:13:21

Right. They're they're virtue signaling all over the place. Like, oh, that's great that you're having a brown and

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:27

black segregation at it at the Highest level of government in Boston. You know? It's like, like, what kind of lunacy is that? Can you imagine if they were applied, Norm, we're gonna have a white only. You wouldn't be invited.

Norm Murdock [: 00:13:37

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Or or maybe I would make some kind of 23 and me, case to the mayor. Oh, now listen. I have a little Sub Saharan ever. Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:13:49

I mean,

Steve Palmer [: 00:13:49

what a little bit of slice. What what what It's so stupid. It's it's it's Skin color your skin color dictates where you can go, when you can be there, and for what events you're allowed to attend or what events you're allowed to attend. And if that's not segregation at the government level, I don't know what is.

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:04

I mean, it's Klan stuff. It's Nazi stuff. It's And this is and this is what The Liberals who are so blind to this are backing into. They are with these kinds of choices, like an all black dormitory at a public university Or a separate black graduation.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:21

Right. It's separate equal.

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:23

They are backing into Right. What they defeated.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:27

So this is like the the The the, wasn't this part of the rift with Malcolm x and Elijah Muhammad

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:35

back in the day Oh, definitely.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:37

Of the black Muslim the movement.

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:39

Malcolm x had moved on.

Steve Palmer [: 00:14:41

And he he said, look. This a separate society within ours isn't what I want. You know? We it's it's clearly The the the, Elijah Muhammad message was clearly contrary to, Martin Luther King who was saying, look, we These rights exist. We just want them applied to us too.

Norm Murdock [: 00:14:58

And it's it's Louis Farrakhan now who is the spokesman Right. For that point of view.

Steve Palmer [: 00:15:03

Calls Jews termites, by the way. And I'm sure. You know? But it was Farrakhan who was saying, I'm gonna brush my teeth with black toothpaste. You know? Yeah. He wanted a completely segregated society.

Norm Murdock [: 00:15:12

Completely.

Steve Palmer [: 00:15:12

it it a segregated society in: 2023

Norm Murdock [: 00:15:28

The best Christmas party I ever went to in Columbus, Ohio was mixed race, so much fun.

Steve Palmer [: 00:15:36

And we were never thought about any other kind of Christmas. It's like it's never even crossed my mind. Well,

Norm Murdock [: 00:15:41

this this was an This was a party thrown at on the near east side by an African American, friend of my then wife and Went over there, and there were celebrities. There were regular people like me. There were the it's just a a a cross section of society, and It was so much fun, and it we we everybody was so loose. There was no tension. I think we've gone So backwards now. You couldn't have a party like that. People would be stiff. Watch.

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:13

We were telling jokes.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:15

Don Rickles

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:15

Oh, yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:16

And the and the Rad Pack

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:18

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:19

Paradise the racism that was going on. Is paradise the right word? Make a parody of it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:23

Have a parody of

Brett Johnson [: 00:16:24

it. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:25

Make a parody of the racism.

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:26

We'll play with stereotypes and have a little fun with it.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:28

Fun. That's the melting pot ideal. Right?

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:30

And that's exactly what did it with the party.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:33

Country great, and we're screwing it up.

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:36

Oh, man. There were

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:37

staying segregation?

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:38

There were food items that, you know, I'd never Seen before, and I found oh, this is traditional

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:43

stuff. Eat French fries every day, Norm. You gotta do a little bit of fries.

Norm Murdock [: 00:16:46

Well, no. No. Not French fries, but, like, you know, that just homemade stuff that, this Ohio boy had not seen before. His down south cuisine, and it it was so much fun.

Steve Palmer [: 00:16:58

Well, Drew, look, you're in college. Mhmm. And, you You know, I remember my college experience was very eye opening for me. Now you may have had it it may not as, dramatic for you because when I went to college, I came from a small town, where it was a a farm community. And, you know, I went to the College of Wooster, and all of a sudden, I got all these East Coast people. I got different different ethnic origins, different financial, I mean, like, money that I couldn't even comprehend, people who quote summer out East. You know, it's like I didn't even I I had no but, you know, what what was the what was the culture shock for you?

Drew Palmer [: 00:17:29

Well, first, the biggest, like, ethnic origins of Bowling Green are Cleveland.

Steve Palmer [: 00:17:33

Cleveland. Right. So you got the Cleveland people. But look, that's it's still different. But the idea is you mix I mean, like, you you do you have anybody you're friends with that you weren't that you wouldn't have otherwise ever been exposed to?

Drew Palmer [: 00:17:45

Yeah. We have 1 guy who's up there. He's from the Cape in Massachusetts.

Steve Palmer [: 00:17:50

Yeah. There you go. So that's a whole different. The the idea is when you when you combine true this is true diversity. Right? This is what this is what we're talking about diversity. They're talk the the other side is talking about diversity and then segregate us.

Norm Murdock [: 00:18:01

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:18:02

But Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:18:02

The true

Steve Palmer [: 00:18:02

diversity is you take the best of all you just take everybody and put them together and see what happens. That's the melting pot. Yeah.

Drew Palmer [: 00:18:08

So he a couple of the guys from, like, Chicago or

Norm Murdock [: 00:18:11

You must have a bunch from Southeast Michigan, Detroit area.

Drew Palmer [: 00:18:15

Yeah. We have a couple. Most people are from Cleveland,

Norm Murdock [: 00:18:19

Really? No kidding. No.

Brett Johnson [: 00:18:20

Because Bowling Green still has a pretty good hockey team. Right?

Drew Palmer [: 00:18:23

Yeah. Well They had that important to a lot of Canadians.

Norm Murdock [: 00:18:25

They had

Drew Palmer [: 00:18:25

some issues this Oh,

Brett Johnson [: 00:18:26

did they? Okay.

Drew Palmer [: 00:18:27

They had a they had a couple of hazing allegations

Brett Johnson [: 00:18:29

this year. Because because I remember I went to Miami, and the team was just full of Canadians. I mean, that was the first Wow. 1st look at you know, that would that brought them in heat because Canada plays hockey, and that made Miami that time. And I think they still have a reputation of being a really good hockey team.

Steve Palmer [: 00:18:44

And they play Ohio State coming up. Right? The 26th?

Drew Palmer [: 00:18:46

No. This the 5th. The 5th. The 5th of January.

Steve Palmer [: 00:18:49

Forgive me. The 5th of January.

Drew Palmer [: 00:18:50

Yeah. And 6th.

Steve Palmer [: 00:18:51

9th? Is down here at Ohio State, and

Drew Palmer [: 00:18:53

the 6th is up there.

Steve Palmer [: 00:18:54

So how is it, Drew, that Ohio State plays bow I mean, it just seems to me like that is a a mismatch.

Drew Palmer [: 00:19:01

Well, Bowling Green is not in the MAC for hockey. They're in a different conference.

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:05

Hockey's all different, isn't it?

Brett Johnson [: 00:19:06

Mhmm. Oh, that's rough.

Drew Palmer [: 00:19:07

Because a lot of the MAC schools don't have teams.

Norm Murdock [: 00:19:10

Yeah. And I bet Ohio State's not a powerhouse in hockey. Are they?

Drew Palmer [: 00:19:14

Pretty good.

Norm Murdock [: 00:19:15

They're pretty good. Okay.

Brett Johnson [: 00:19:16

I remember in Miami, we would split the weekends the same way. Mhmm. And it yeah. You went for the fight. Yeah. You did. You you I remember standing along the glass, and you just pounded when Ohio State got In the in the red and ice. Oh, yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:19:30

It was a great experience, our highest.

Drew Palmer [: 00:19:32

Last year in Bowling Green, played a high state. They got Yeah. They got pretty rowdy.

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:36

Hey. We're gonna go nuts. We're gonna go nuts.

Drew Palmer [: 00:19:38

They the college guys, they they take it a lot more serious than the pros do almost because they, like they're playing to get there, so they wanna Mhmm. They tryna play as physical as they can. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:47

You know what, Drew, you ought to do? You ought to join Common Sense Ohio and provide a little Ohio centric sports analysis of what's going

Norm Murdock [: 00:19:55

on. So maybe

Steve Palmer [: 00:19:56

you could cover the hockey game for us on the on the 5th and the 6th and and and report that.

Brett Johnson [: 00:19:59

So did you experience Soapbox speeches on campus, people just popping down and just spitting out stuff?

Drew Palmer [: 00:20:07

We have a we have a little bit of that, but it's, It's not as much or at least I don't try to pay attention

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:12

to it. Right. I'm just

Drew Palmer [: 00:20:13

curious. Especially during the day, like, when they're doing it. I'm, usually at work and then Class. I'm not really walking around campus too.

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:19

Well, that's telling, isn't it?

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:21

Well, they've banned they've banned a lot of

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:23

like, I got work to do.

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:23

The Tubthumpers have been banned on a lot of college campuses because They wanna build out a safe space. And if some guy's going on about, you know, the end is coming and, you know, it's the end time Oh,

Drew Palmer [: 00:20:35

we've had we've had some people like that. We one guy

Norm Murdock [: 00:20:37

And then they move them off campus. They say, you know They'd

Drew Palmer [: 00:20:39

say they didn't. They let them stay.

Brett Johnson [: 00:20:41

But it's fascinating to listen to these people, though, if you not to not to believe it, but just to hear How emotional they are about it. I mean, that's that's the goldenness of of free speech.

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:50

They're just let let it go.

Brett Johnson [: 00:20:52

You know?

Steve Palmer [: 00:20:52

Yeah. The classic example of this is there's a place called Hyde Park in London. And, you know, everybody's heard of, like, the fam the famous concerts that have happened in Hyde Park. But Hyde Park was The original bastion of free speech. Right? You could go into Hyde Park. I remember this going there. It probably Drew, I was probably in maybe 10 or 11 or 12. I don't remember how old I was.

Steve Palmer [: 00:21:09

But You

Norm Murdock [: 00:21:10

can't preach the there now.

Steve Palmer [: 00:21:11

And you can't do it anymore. So these guys these guys would just literally bring their store soapbox, stand up there, and just bellow all day long about whatever the hell they

Norm Murdock [: 00:21:19

wanna do.

Drew Palmer [: 00:21:20

Yeah. Have people like that on campus. I choose not to listen to any of them, but we have people on both sides, like, spinning.

Norm Murdock [: 00:21:26

So they have not created the safe Space, policy where, you know, if somebody spouts off and it hurts your feelings, they they usher that guy or gal off at campus?

Drew Palmer [: 00:21:37

Not that I've seen. And then

Norm Murdock [: 00:21:39

also it's doing that in a lot of places.

Drew Palmer [: 00:21:40

It's also a public university, so it's all public property.

Norm Murdock [: 00:21:43

Well, public universities the worst one.

Steve Palmer [: 00:21:45

Well, they can't they can't engage in content based, censorship. So, you know, if they're gonna if they're gonna ban 1 group, they gotta ban the other.

Norm Murdock [: 00:21:52

They shouldn't.

Drew Palmer [: 00:21:53

Because there was 1 big dude.

Norm Murdock [: 00:21:54

They're not so personal.

Drew Palmer [: 00:21:55

There was 1 big one they had, probably a couple months ago now.

Steve Palmer [: 00:21:59

Okay.

Drew Palmer [: 00:22:00

And there was a pretty big crowd out there listening to her talk, And she was going on about just a bunch of nonsense just and I walked by just a little bit. I don't stay and listen, but they had cops there to make sure it didn't get, like, out of hand, but they caught. The police are just standing there watching as the students sat there and listened and

Steve Palmer [: 00:22:17

Yep. You have to protect the speaker. Yeah. Mhmm. You're supposed to protect the

Norm Murdock [: 00:22:20

speaker. Supposed to.

Steve Palmer [: 00:22:21

Yeah. Right.

Drew Palmer [: 00:22:22

Then you'll have the crazies come out who wanna tell you that the Earth is flat and the moon landing is fake.

Norm Murdock [: 00:22:26

Yep. They're not?

Steve Palmer [: 00:22:29

I've seen the pictures, man. It's a little bit shaken. Oh, this is supposed to be up. Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:22:33

You know, though, I'm glad to hear it still exists.

Norm Murdock [: 00:22:35

I I I I think it's

Steve Palmer [: 00:22:37

I love it. The the walking down on Ohio State on a game day, and you got those people preaching on the corner about whatever it is.

Brett Johnson [: 00:22:42

It it seems so crazy, but it's like, but this what it's about. You can walk right by

Drew Palmer [: 00:22:47

and see if it

Brett Johnson [: 00:22:48

doesn't harm anybody.

Steve Palmer [: 00:22:49

I have

Drew Palmer [: 00:22:49

a buddy who's making his fantasy football punishment. They gotta go get up there and start Beacon of some nonsense in front of people.

Brett Johnson [: 00:22:55

Yeah. There you go. I like that.

Steve Palmer [: 00:22:58

Well, look. Norm, you wanna you wanna check your there's a story I wanna talk about, but I'll let you check your boxes first.

Norm Murdock [: 00:23:03

Oh, man. I have so much stuff.

Steve Palmer [: 00:23:05

So 2nd amendment?

Norm Murdock [: 00:23:06

Yeah. Do you wanna you wanna stick with some amendment things? Yeah. So this is just I was rethinking a little bit about what we talked, regarding the second amendment and the Bruin decision. And Steve mentioned that, bubbling up to the Supreme Court is a case Based on an affidavit, I guess that's the system, or maybe it's a judicial system, a judicial decision. But When somebody complains that, you know, there's a red flag and they take away, the 2nd Amendment rights of usually the husband, sometimes the wife in a domestic case. You know, is that constitutional or not? So Steve had mentioned a a case coming up. And using the Bruin test about whether or not In period, were there were there times or is there precedent at the time of the adoption of the Bill of Rights For government to take away your your right to bear and own a firearm. And I got to thinking about that, Steve.

Norm Murdock [: 00:24:20

And I do recall way back somewhere in my skull that Even pre, constitution, so in period, there were laws against, like, Cruelty to your man servants and your domestic, what, indentured servants, or, your wife or your children. You you could beat them up to a point, but you couldn't go into cruelty. You couldn't

Steve Palmer [: 00:24:48

really kick their ass.

Norm Murdock [: 00:24:49

Yeah. And I will bet That somewhere along the lines, a Puritan judge put somebody in, in blocks, right, for doing that and probably did take his musket.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:01

Maybe. Or did he

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:03

take his

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:04

musket for the time he was in a blockade, or did he take his musket forever?

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:08

So Yeah. People will dig into that. I bet there's it is precedent. Look.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:12

I I don't know what I think about the history text and tradition standard. You know, I I I think it's gonna we're gonna get some Well,

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:17

it's original one ten.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:18

Gonna get some incongruent application of the rules because they're they're we're going to run into stuff that just in modern society, they would never have even had a chance to encounter, and then we're gonna have to deal with that.

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:27

And Well, it's called called a constitutional amendment. Right? Well, but we have

Drew Palmer [: 00:25:32

to set

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:32

up an amendment.

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:32

So you can't you know? Well, you can amend it.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:35

Well, I guess you could amend it. But we're talking about, does a law violate an amendment? And, you know, it's particularly taking it away from the 2nd amendment or maybe not.

Brett Johnson [: 00:25:45

And they find these old laws all the time that probably counter amendments.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:49

They probably do.

Brett Johnson [: 00:25:50

They just were, you know, when the the

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:51

So if the state's

Brett Johnson [: 00:25:52

enforced. 100 pay yeah. Never enforce. Exactly. Never enforce. But if they can find chicken on Sunday.

Steve Palmer [: 00:25:56

Sunday blew off. Yeah. Exactly.

Norm Murdock [: 00:25:58

But if they can find that Miles Standish Took a musket from somebody because he was beating his wife.

Steve Palmer [: 00:26:04

Well, that's pre that's way preconstitution.

Norm Murdock [: 00:26:06

Right. But then that probably carried up through

Steve Palmer [: 00:26:10

Norm Murdock [: 00:26:10

will see In the in the state of Massachusetts, probably carried right up to when they when the, confederation

Steve Palmer [: 00:26:17

see. Which we'll see. So we're gonna see this coming up in things like felony convictions and whether that's a permanent disability so you can't have firearms. We're gonna see it in, these alleged mental health cases where that's the red flag like you're talking about, where people sign an affidavit that says Norm's crazy, and he is. We know he's crazy. But so they wanna take his guns from him because we've said he's crazy.

Brett Johnson [: 00:26:35

So so what is it that's being discussed?

Norm Murdock [: 00:26:37

Well, I think what I'll get to that. So what what I Think is probably some what I think the Supreme Court will say is, yeah, you can do that, but not on an affidavit. You're gonna have to give this person some kind of judicial process.

Steve Palmer [: 00:26:54

Yeah. But that's not the issue in the case that we we talk like, the domestic violence case. If you have a civil protection order issued against you in the context of a family or household member, a domestic type scenario Right. That becomes a firearm exclusion. That that That is a disability that prevents you from owning or possess Well,

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:10

that that's

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:10

what possessing firearms.

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:11

Saying. That that that's what I'm saying. So that's

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:14

a civil protection order.

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:15

So I'm thinking King, the Supreme Court will say

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:17

But that doesn't happen without a hearing and right to be heard.

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:20

Oh, good. Okay.

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:21

A CPO like, you can't just go say, Uh-huh. Norm, I want a protection against norm. There's usually a hearing, and you have an opportunity to be heard.

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:28

Where the person who is having his rights taken

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:31

Or her rights state. Can defend it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:33

Can speak to the judge or the referee.

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:36

That is the theory. But the practice is that, Say, you're also accused of domestic violence and you have a civil protection order pending. Now I have to now I'm in this juxtaposition where do I let my client testify in a civil right or in the civil protection order hearing, knowing that I am compromising his ability to remain silent in the alleged criminal conduct.

Norm Murdock [: 00:27:55

You mean that testimony could be used Correct. In the main Trial.

Steve Palmer [: 00:27:59

Yes. Under oath, no less. So, you know, in practice, a a notice and a right to be heard is not such a great protection.

Brett Johnson [: 00:28:07

Landline or Oh, yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:08

Mind the election. Perfect, but it it does offer that person

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:12

It offers them, but you get look. It don't but I I don't mean to discount how it is to get a civil protection order against somebody. You can just go make an allegation, line their oath, and boom, you've got it. Happens all the time.

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:22

And and and they do an emergency one of those without a hearing.

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:25

Right? Parte one, but then they have to have a hearing within a certain usually 10 days or so that they give you a chance to have a hearing. Pretty quick. 10 to 14 days.

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:31

But, I mean, do the stormtroopers actually come to the guy's house Yes. And actually take his weapons

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:36

Yes.

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:37

In that 10 day period?

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:38

Yep.

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:38

Okay. See, I could see the Supreme Court saying, you can't do that.

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:42

That happens. In fact, I've had a case. I had a case in Marysville where that occurred. A guy was dispossessed of his firearms and the the they you know, he had he had made a little bit of a name for offer whatever. But they came out, and they he had to turn his guns over.

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:54

And then while they're

Steve Palmer [: 00:28:54

I think we brought him to

Norm Murdock [: 00:28:55

the store. Steve, while they're in there. Right? It's not fruit of the poisonous tree. Now they see he's got a Stash of marijuana that Yeah. But You know?

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:03

So but, you know, that argument, the other side would say, well, he shouldn't have marijuana, so it's good that we found it. Yeah. My my response to that is, I don't I'm not necessarily, concerned about the guy who's committing crimes. I'm concerned about the guy who isn't and a corrupt cop saying that he is. Because, you know, in that case I'm talking about, there was some bias. There was some local bias going on.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:23

Gotta be.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:23

I'm not saying the cops were committing crimes or anything else, but it's not that of a leap, skip, and a jump that they would.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:28

Sure. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:29

Absolutely. I've represented dirty law enforcement. I

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:31

think they've seen If the guy's a pain in the ass to the the police department For years, and all of a sudden, they can get him on that.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:37

Or just an enemy an enemy of the prosecutor, a political enemy.

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:41

Right. Whatever. Whatever.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:42

Like we would never use the justice department to prosecute our political enemies.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:46

Yeah. Right. Said no president. That's been going that's been going on Since you knew who was the boys' skin.

Steve Palmer [: 00:29:53

Well, since Marbury versus Madison. Yeah. Yeah. We had this call

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:56

this morning. Okay.

Norm Murdock [: 00:29:57

So that's what I had on the 2nd amendment. I was just thinking That

Steve Palmer [: 00:30:01

That wasn't really justice against justice, but it was it was using the system against your political

Norm Murdock [: 00:30:05

Yeah. Somebody will dig something up. Steve, I also wanted you to comment On this rather remarkable chain of events now involving, you know, Trump went to a court of Federal Court of Appeals, and he and he had his, gag order narrowed so that he can freely talk about Jack Smith And the other prosecutors in the not only the New York case

Steve Palmer [: 00:30:30

Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:30:31

But also in the j six case. And previous to that, The the 2 judges were saying, you know, I'll fine you so much every day, every time you talk. Maybe put your clap irons on you and put you in in jail. And the, appeals court said, well, you can't talk about the judge, and you can't talk about his staff or her staff. But, Yeah. You do have the right to to speak about the trial in general and to also attack the prosecutors.

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:01

Yeah. I look. I I I don't like gag orders. I I I'm not championing

Drew Palmer [: 00:31:06

sorry to interrupt. I just wanna add something when he said.

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:08

Mhmm.

Drew Palmer [: 00:31:09

Because you guys always do your Columbus connection with the January 6th. A Columbus man was just charged yesterday.

Norm Murdock [: 00:31:15

Yeah. So Oh, yeah. There's still

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:16

and there's some there's some, Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:31:18

We'll get to that Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:31:18

There's some other stuff going on with that. But yeah. Yeah. So a gag order in the context of a of a trial, whether it's civil or criminal, always bugs me because it's government saying you can't go talk about something, and that's that's again another restriction on speech and another potential, area where the government can go too far. And I think that's what the court of appeals said here is that, look, not only do you have a a litigant in a case, a criminal defendant, who should be able to defend himself and not only should, has an absolute constitutional right to do so. Like them or not, agree with the case or not, you have a right to present a defense. And, you know, if you can't say that the government in the form of ever or through whoever, you know, whether it's congresspeople, whether it's, people in justice, Whether it's people in the executive branch, they're all talking about it. They get to talk about it, but Trump doesn't.

Steve Palmer [: 00:32:07

And and, you know, that's a problem. And and whether he's using it to mount a defense to his case or, like, do something else politically, like run for office. You know, you have a right to to speech. You have a right of free particularly political speech. So, anyway, I agree with court appeals on it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:32:24

gy bit of code called section: 1512

Steve Palmer [: 00:33:37

Drew's gonna leave the table. So, hey, Drew, go, he's going to work. Go go bank, man. No arguments no arguments with that.

Brett Johnson [: 00:33:43

Go add To the economy. Exactly.

Norm Murdock [: 00:33:45

nts caught up in this section: 1512

Steve Palmer [: 00:34:53

This is, this is very strange. Classic lawyering. I love it. So what what you know, on both sides. So, you you know, part of me, This is how common law develops. We have we have a law, and the government gets creative here in applying a law in a certain set of facts. The defense challenges that and says, you can't do that, and the courts have to sort it all out. So it starts as a challenge at the trial court level.

Steve Palmer [: 00:35:15

I if I'm representing one of these defendants, I would file a motion to dismiss saying it's, this is a, overbroad or improper, application of law in my case, or maybe the law itself as applied to my case violates Something like my right of free speech. The trial court says, no. We disagree. Go to trial. I'd lose. And now I appeal to the Court of Appeals. In court, we applaud we challenged that decision by the trial court in the Court of Appeals. And now the Court of Appeals either affirms or, reverses, says, yeah, we agree with the defense or we agree with the government.

Steve Palmer [: 00:35:46

And then, you know, after that decision, the US Supreme Court takes it. This is how law develops. This is how law evolves. The government's gotten overly creative with the application of a certain law in a case, And now it they stand a chance of getting whacked down. This is, this is how the system should work. Now, the the the the travesty of that is that There there's enough playing the joints where people can be convicted, where people's liberty is taken from them, where people have to endure prosecution, pay lawyers, go through the stress, lose everything. And and if you think I'm I'm exaggerating, I'm not. Lose everything.

Steve Palmer [: 00:36:22

So Imagine everybody listening here went home and found an indictment, a federal indictment on a crime that can put him in federal prison for years. So felony indictment, waiting for them. And and not only waiting for them, waiting for them with some US marshals who are there to take you away in handcuffs you can be arraigned and have a bond set. And you call your job and say, guess what? I've been indicted on federal felonies. But can you just hold my job for me for a little while while I go figure it out?

Norm Murdock [: 00:36:52

Right. Like, during the National Guard or something

Steve Palmer [: 00:36:54

like that? Keep paying me while I go through this for the next 2 years. Yeah. No. You're fired immediately. You've lost your income, and then you gotta call up your bank and say, by the way, I can't pay my mortgage. What am I gonna do? And you're gonna tell your wife and kids I can't pay the mortgage. What are we gonna do? You lose everything.

Norm Murdock [: 00:37:06

So this

Steve Palmer [: 00:37:07

is a lose everything scenario.

Norm Murdock [: 00:37:08

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:37:09

And, you know, for some people have enough money to defend it. Some people have to have families and friends who rally around them and help them out. But most of the people just lose everything. And so whoever wins at the Supreme Court, if if it gets reversed, It's going to have broad impact on a lot of these prosecutions, but it doesn't fix that.

Norm Murdock [: 00:37:25

No. It doesn't.

Steve Palmer [: 00:37:26

Yeah. Doesn't fix that. Right. So

Norm Murdock [: 00:37:28

Another another, Supreme Court accepted a a writ, this time by Jack Smith, this time by the execution Yep. On immunity, you know, the question of immunity of

Steve Palmer [: 00:37:42

Presidential immunity.

Norm Murdock [: 00:37:43

Presidential immunity by Trump on January 6. You know, he was still in office Mhmm. When he gave his speeches, and he said peacefully march And then, you know, go home later in the day, told people, no. You you shouldn't, you know, trespass. Go home. It's over. You know? No more shenanigans out there. But at any rate, I know somebody who who went to the speech on the, in the authorized zone on the on the, on the main plaza there in DC attended Trump's speech, And, yes, he he said, you know, peep do everything peacefully, you know, and and, So I don't know what other claims are involved in this January 6th.

Norm Murdock [: 00:38:34

You know, the trial hasn't happened. I don't know what they think Trump did to cause the riots in on January 6th. You know, I guess that'll come out at the trial. But in any rate, that, writ by Jack Smith for the Supreme Court to decide whether or not a president can Stand for criminal liability, for acts while in office is before the Supreme Court. And, supposedly, There's a trial date for this, January 6th case of March 4th. I can't I can't see that happening. No.

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:07

No. I mean, you the government wants this done as fast as possible, and Trump is like, no. I you know? And so I always

Norm Murdock [: 00:39:13

He filed an appeal in the appeals courts. So so which is now moot, I guess, because the Supreme

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:18

gonna Supreme court's gonna grab it, and, they're gonna decide this. And if you're the prosecutor, you want this decided in advance. And if you're the defense, you want it decided. I mean, you know, There's no sense wasting money and time and effort on a trial. Now it it you would think justice wouldn't care because they want Trump to be convicted even if it gets reversed. Right. But, I I would think a rational prosecutor rather would want this resolved before they went to trial. You would wanna know the answer to this question or what the likely answer to be or is going to be.

Steve Palmer [: 00:39:44

And, you know, how this how this shakes out, I have no idea. I don't know the law of presidential immunity. It's one of those little nuanced areas. I'll I'll I'll get brushed up on it. We can talk about it, maybe do a breakdown on it. But it's,

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:55

I can I have met I would imagine it's pretty liberal in regards to, Immure you know?

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:00

And if this is just

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:02

kind of an untouchable person, kind of.

Norm Murdock [: 00:40:04

So this came up with, Richard Nixon.

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:06

Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:40:06

Okay? They wanted to prosecute him for criminal acts that he allegedly did while he was in office. Right? Mhmm. The cover up of the break in at the Watergate, you know, hotel. And, that's why president Ford pardoned

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:23

president Stop that analysis of contracts.

Norm Murdock [: 00:40:25

It was going to empty out president Nixon's, you know, his entire savings. I mean, like, Rudy Giuliani Has this $43,000,000 decision against him. Well, he didn't have that.

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:38

He didn't have it.

Norm Murdock [: 00:40:39

Right? He he he's he's done.

Steve Palmer [: 00:40:40

But you're forgetting, Nixon was not a crook.

Norm Murdock [: 00:40:44

Not a crook. But in general, I think the precedents that I have heard, precedents, You know, previous decisions along these lines have tended to say the president is not I mean, this is just broad brush stuff, so I'm not saying this is this is not a law review article, given orally here. This is just my my gut Based on reading. So in general, my understanding is, the president can't stand For civil actions, for things he did while president. But criminal actions, in theory, like any other citizen, he would like like, if you pulled out a gun and shot Nancy Pelosi. Right? He he

Steve Palmer [: 00:41:26

he you know? Be prosecuted for that. I I Yeah. What what makes sense to me is Maybe you can't prosecute a president while he's sitting. You have to impeach him first and then do the prosecution. But you you can eventually prosecute him after he leaves office. That's that that's my guess on how And

Norm Murdock [: 00:41:41

I I think that was the thinking behind the pardon of Richard Nixon because he was gonna get prosecuted. Mhmm. He said so Right. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:41:49

He said so himself.

Norm Murdock [: 00:41:50

And I'm keeping the dog. Yeah. Keeping the dog.

Steve Palmer [: 00:41:53

I'm not a crook. I don't Gee, Gordon, what he is? Who's this Halderman?

Norm Murdock [: 00:41:59

And and Nancy likes the dog. And, by golly, we're keeping checkers. There was a little hey. Let's Be fair to you. You had something you wanted to talk about.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:13

Oh, I just thought did you it it sort of Yeah. I I don't know what the right word is. A little levity. Did you see the White House Christmas video?

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:22

My god.

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:23

No. I did not.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:24

It's a freak show. This

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:25

Oh, god. This I thought it was a parody.

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:27

Oh, wow. That bad.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:28

I thought it was like Good. Somebody making a joke.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:31

Dude, this did you see the sugar plum fairy guy?

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:35

It is insane. Same. It's it it is like, what's the movie?

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:39

A clockwork orange?

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:40

No. No. No. I mean, it's crazy. Like that.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:42

It's crazy.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:42

No. The the movie with, You know, the futuristic movie

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:46

Like, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? Like, there's crazy games.

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:49

It's like Oh, it

Drew Palmer [: 00:42:50

is. Hunger Games.

Norm Murdock [: 00:42:51

It is like that. It reminds

Steve Palmer [: 00:42:52

me of Hunger Games. Like, these people dressed up in these crazy costumes dancing around and, you know, tap I mean, look, the art the artistry, I can appreciate to some extent. Oh. But it's so bizarre, man. I mean, it is like it is just absolute it's a freak show.

Norm Murdock [: 00:43:06

It's a bad dream. It's a it's a video of a nightmare or something.

Steve Palmer [: 00:43:10

It's like it's like something Right. And, again, the performances, they are what they are. You know, these people are talented, but, boy, it's bizarre. You know, the the like, the guy with the thing

Norm Murdock [: 00:43:18

in his

Steve Palmer [: 00:43:19

head, like, It it is it it's but what is it? The sugar plum fairy.

Norm Murdock [: 00:43:22

Right? And that's a sugar plum on his head. It's it's just madness. Mhmm. It is it is Alice Alice in Wonderland.

Steve Palmer [: 00:43:28

Alice in Wonderland. Yeah. That's a great It is crazy. And it's at the it's at the highest level of our government. It reminded me of Hunger Games. You know, these people don't know that they're wearing invisible clothes. They don't know how ridiculous they look.

Brett Johnson [: 00:43:39

Yeah. Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:43:40

Well, I now know what it's like to be on an acid trip

Steve Palmer [: 00:43:43

because that

Norm Murdock [: 00:43:43

that was like that. Yeah. I I I literally was I was I lost buoyancy or something when I watched

Steve Palmer [: 00:43:50

play a clip of it. We should we see Dan clip it in while we're talking here? But Oh my god. It is it is bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. It is bizarre. And it it and it reflects I think it well, let's really analyze it on some level. You know? It it reflects a complete disconnect from reality.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:05

There's no way Joe Biden picked out that Video.

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:08

Well, is it do you know what that's responsible for it?

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:11

Well, yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:44:12

Probably. The

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:13

first yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:14

Or at

Brett Johnson [: 00:44:14

least first lady, Probably.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:15

It's the wokest thing you could ever imagine.

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:18

I mean, it's woke. It's so it it's it's like It's creepy.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:22

Well, the the ballet troupe that they picked, If you get into the background?

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:26

Right. Right. Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:26

Yeah. The it's a woke up.

Brett Johnson [: 00:44:28

Okay. So you you you pay for what you get.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:30

That's right. Yeah. They're DEI ESG. Gee, it it they even have a a anti like, what do they call it? White supremacy. Like, there's something in the name of the dance.

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:44

Yeah. Yeah. That's correct.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:45

It's it's just bizarre.

Drew Palmer [: 00:44:45

But I

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:46

don't care about that part of it. I just care about how bizarre it really is. It's like

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:49

But that's how they got picked, probably.

Steve Palmer [: 00:44:51

Well, yeah, we've just abandoned all sense of common sense.

Norm Murdock [: 00:44:54

I mean, remember, Joe Specific I mean, this is the this goes back to the mayor of Boston thing. Joe, when you re It's like Hiro is

Steve Palmer [: 00:45:04

running the running the country.

Norm Murdock [: 00:45:06

Well, before he picked, Kamala, he actually said, I'm going to find a black female as a vice presidential running mate. And you're just like, my god, Jose. You're just scratching off all white women, All white men, all all black men.

Steve Palmer [: 00:45:24

Imagine if I did that in my job. I'm I'm gonna hire a white man. Yes. I'm looking for a white man.

Norm Murdock [: 00:45:32

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:45:33

All comers. Submit your application.

Brett Johnson [: 00:45:35

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:45:36

Why is it different to say I'm looking for a black woman? All comers,

Brett Johnson [: 00:45:39

senior applications. Obviously, signaling, obviously, that Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:45:42

It's up to you. He he said those were the qualifications.

Brett Johnson [: 00:45:45

Yeah. Well, I I understand. A signal. Well, for sure. But it's one of those you can look for somebody like that, but do you have to say it?

Steve Palmer [: 00:45:52

You have to say it.

Brett Johnson [: 00:45:53

What I'm saying.

Steve Palmer [: 00:45:54

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:45:54

He can keep it to himself, and it's like, oh, wow. Good for you, Joe. Now you he's played his cards. You know that he's going to.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:01

Well, he wanted To it to be out there. That's but just

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:04

I mean, that's what I think. You're right. I think Siggi look. This happens

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:07

on everyone. Maybe Siggi Lewis.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:08

You know,

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:08

did Reagan do it with Sandra Day? Yeah. Know, was he looking for a woman specifically? I think he was.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:15

Well, but you could

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:16

conservative one. He sure was.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:18

You could say I'm open to that, and I think it would be Citing to have that. That's what I'm saying. Would be really

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:23

It happens all the time. Yeah. But, you know, to to see

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:27

this whole

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:27

part out loud and excluding all others.

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:29

And and talk about Setting yourself so you're what

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:32

I'm saying.

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:32

See, I'm open to everyone.

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:33

Well, she's so capable. Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:36

But the the the Solve the border crisis.

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:38

I'm gonna find so I'm hoping to everyone. I'm gonna find the best candidate there is. And all of a sudden you do pick Camille, Camille.

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:44

Yeah. At at least it's better.

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:46

You you've set you've set the stage going, He looked at everyone, and she's the best.

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:51

I do not.

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:51

It's a win for it could bore it can work.

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:54

It definitely plays politically better for him across

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:56

the board. Exactly.

Steve Palmer [: 00:46:57

But How

Norm Murdock [: 00:46:58

do you say her name again?

Brett Johnson [: 00:46:59

I think it's Kamala.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:01

I haven't I haven't thought of I have no idea.

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:03

Because I know during the last debate Kamala. Somebody got slammed down.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:06

Well, she him she Self has pronounced her name a couple different ways. I mean, that's the funny part.

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:12

It's racist if you say

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:13

it wrong.

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:13

It's just such insane.

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:14

I know there's

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:15

Some crap

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:15

out of last debate.

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:16

Yeah. You're you're you're saying your

Drew Palmer [: 00:47:18

name is

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:18

a white male would not know how to say her name. It's like, no. I don't know how to say it because it's I don't understand how

Drew Palmer [: 00:47:22

to say it.

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:22

It's not like he's mispronouncing it like George, 2 no. George won Saint Sadam Saddam. You know? Yeah. Saddam was

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:29

Or he

Drew Palmer [: 00:47:29

called a

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:30

boy. Saddam. Saddam. Saddam. Yeah. On purpose too. Yeah. Exactly.

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:33

Of course.

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:34

Which I Oh, that's great.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:35

I mean, come on. Yeah. Right? Oh my god. And remember Schwartzkopf? I mean, he had so much fun at that press conference.

Steve Palmer [: 00:47:41

Storm adore.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:43

He's he's neither a genius, a leader. He's not a this. He's not a historian. He's not like, he named all the things that Sodom was not. It was beautiful.

Drew Palmer [: 00:47:52

Well, I

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:53

want if if you don't mind, I want to add Oh, yeah. On state level.

Norm Murdock [: 00:47:56

Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:47:56

he Sunshine Uniformity Act of: 2023

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:14

Oh, thank god.

Brett Johnson [: 00:48:15

Do you think it's a good thing?

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:16

Yes. Do you?

Brett Johnson [: 00:48:17

Yes. Okay.

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:18

Yes. I can't stand it getting dark at 5 o'clock. Do you

Brett Johnson [: 00:48:22

like it dark at 8:30 in the morning, though?

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:24

I don't care about the morning. I'm totally fine.

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:27

And that all Carter? And didn't that have to do with, like, the kids getting on the bus or something?

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:31

Oh, it's it's it's preseats. It's World War

Brett Johnson [: 00:48:33

1 Yeah. Preseats. Saving from what I saw. It

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:36

was energy saving.

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:37

Yeah. But it was farm related in in that in that respect. You're right. But it Interesting.

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:42

It predates Carter.

Brett Johnson [: 00:48:43

The, you know, the house Concurrent resolution 7

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:45

Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:48:45

Was pushed by a trio of Republicans. Please. And then there's a trio of Democrats against it. Now it kinda surprised is going down party at least reported it as party line.

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:54

It's like either like it or you don't.

Brett Johnson [: 00:48:55

I I it's it's a new

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:57

People just check their box on

Norm Murdock [: 00:48:59

it on anything.

Steve Palmer [: 00:48:59

So this is part of Agenda, you must believe.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:01

Well, remember when we had here,

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:03

and that were a roundtable comment section.

Brett Johnson [: 00:49:04

And we had and I do like this. The Republicans are pushing, and it's really they're pushing it because of mental health Combating mental health issues. Yes. Darker winner.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:13

Find it what's coming out.

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:14

Some rational basis for rule

Brett Johnson [: 00:49:15

of ethics. What's coming out of their health. And this is what I think is great.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:19

The basis was farming. Right. Right? Now tractors that I mean, big farms now have GPS controlled tractors. The guy doesn't even steer the tractor. It the GPS system

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:31

They're amazing, by the way. The technology's amazing.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:33

All the guy's doing, sitting in the seat with headphones, you know, listening to his, rave music.

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:39

We're always listening to Common sense Ohio.

Brett Johnson [: 00:49:40

This is compared to tractors at World War one

Drew Palmer [: 00:49:43

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:49:44

That were plowing maybe 3 rows at the most.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:46

And you needed the sun up see what the hell you were doing. They

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:49

had to. No. They they work all night long. And

Brett Johnson [: 00:49:50

even yeah. And even then was still horse drawn in World War one.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:53

Yeah. Robots Snow.

Brett Johnson [: 00:49:55

Yeah. Exactly.

Norm Murdock [: 00:49:55

They're robots. So But I

Steve Palmer [: 00:49:56

just thought

Brett Johnson [: 00:49:57

it was interesting. It's it's it's potential now. There so what there are 2 states that don't change time. Which are they?

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:03

Indiana.

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:04

No. Not anymore.

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:05

Not anymore. They do change.

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:07

I I was surprised at these 2 states as well too. I There's

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:09

one down south too, and I can't remember what it is. I'll give

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:12

you a hint. They're both west.

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:14

It's west. Yes.

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:16

All the territories, they don't change, but 2 states don't change right now. I did not know these 2.

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:21

Alright. I gotta know.

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:22

Arizona and Hawaii.

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:24

I did not know. Right?

Drew Palmer [: 00:50:25

Because I

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:26

was just there. I Okay. I just, I just Okay.

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:29

So I didn't know that.

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:29

But not I only knew it because I was just I

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:31

thought Indiana was on the list too. They must have chain must have been a state resolution.

Steve Palmer [: 00:50:34

Indiana was always on like, it like, they never changed and Ohio did.

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:36

Oh, because my my Wife, her family's right on the Indiana, Ohio line.

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:42

And if you

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:43

do that in the house Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:44

That was a nightmare.

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:45

Clock that faced Ohio

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:46

Right. Was fast Time. Mhmm. Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:49

The I don't think of the clocks were in Indiana facing Indiana, but

Norm Murdock [: 00:50:52

we're saying that town that's the main street Fort Recovery. Yeah. Right on the Fort

Brett Johnson [: 00:50:56

It was funny. They would had 2 during the time change, 2 o'clock, 2 different times.

Steve Palmer [: 00:51:01

It's all made. It was

Brett Johnson [: 00:51:01

so it but it but you knew exactly what to because all the business was being done across the border. And, of course, he had to deal with Indiana too, so it's just so funny. But, yeah, they must I I don't know when I should've looked that up when Indiana changed. But, anyway so maybe. Maybe.

Norm Murdock [: 00:51:13

I got a couple of Fourth Amendment things

Steve Palmer [: 00:51:16

Alright.

Norm Murdock [: 00:51:16

I'd like to get to. 1 is private sector. So Apple has changed its policy now On how they're going to respond to government requests to divulge user data.

Steve Palmer [: 00:51:27

Mhmm.

Norm Murdock [: 00:51:29

Previously, They would disgorge data based on a subpoena. They are now saying, it must be a search warrant. They will not they will not give up data unless it's a search warrant. That or the user obviously authorizes it.

Steve Palmer [: 00:51:44

Yeah. This is,

Norm Murdock [: 00:51:46

so that's progress.

Steve Palmer [: 00:51:48

Yeah. I mean, so what they're saying so subpoena versus search warrant. Here here's all that here's the practical application of that is that The government has the government has grand jury subpoena power. So if a government convenes a grand jury and they start issuing subpoenas, it's virtually a limitless power. I've I've yet to find a limit on that. Wow. And, you know, they they'll I I deal with grand jury subpoenas on, like, private man we talked about guns last week, I think. Private manufacturers have gun parts and stuff.

Steve Palmer [: 00:52:12

They'll get a subpoena all their customer lists.

Drew Palmer [: 00:52:14

You know,

Steve Palmer [: 00:52:14

some grand jury subpoena out of Connecticut or something. And, you know, so that's what happens. You know, the I I've got a case right now. It's a homicide case. I'm defending it, and was a bunch of grand jury subpoenas for phone records, etcetera. The Supreme Court has basically said you need you need warrants for this stuff, and this is why the the policy is changing. So it you know, there there has to be a search warrant based on probable cause with an independent magistrate, in theory, ratifying a warrant and and, issuing a warrant.

Brett Johnson [: 00:52:41

Then could still have a a magistrate on speed dial that would probably could give it to you

Steve Palmer [: 00:52:45

All the time.

Brett Johnson [: 00:52:46

In a heartbeat.

Steve Palmer [: 00:52:46

But here's the difference. I get in and get to go in and challenge the probable cause finding. Gotcha. I get to deal with them. So it's not just willy nilly the government can get it. There has to be some showing. So I have a case right now. It's a homicide case where the probable cause allegation was that My client was one of the last people who was seen one of the last people who was seen with a deceased, And they issued a warrant for that 4 months after the homicide, and, issued a warrant for his house where they took his phone, and then they used the phone to get phone records.

Steve Palmer [: 00:53:17

You know, it's like, that's a search warrant. So, look, I get to go into court and say, not only was this search warrant lacking probable cause because there was so little or so little information linking the k. My client with criminal conduct and what would be found at his house. It was stale. It was 4 months old. So, You know, information go like, what what evidence were they gonna find at somebody's house 4 months after an alleged homicide? So I get to challenge a warrant. Now if I win that challenge, they throw out the evidence. So it gives me a chance to say, government, You can't just get this information.

Steve Palmer [: 00:53:50

And if you do buy a search warrant and you don't have enough probable cause, you can't use it in court. That's a 4th amendment.

Brett Johnson [: 00:53:56

Yeah. Okay.

Norm Murdock [: 00:53:56

When did when did Miranda get decided.

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:00

I think Miranda was 68.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:01

68. Let

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:02

me double check, though.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:03

So I was watching a you know, because of the JFK Thanks 60th anniversary.

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:08

Right.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:08

I was watching a 2 or 3 documentary.

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:11

66, I'm sorry. 66. Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:13

So it came after, obviously, the JFK k. Assassination. Do you know like, I I had forgotten this. Did you did you know Lee Harvey Oswald had a press conference In jail? After he was charged.

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:29

Yeah. I've seen clips of that.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:31

He had been charged.

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:32

Really put it together, but he there's been clips of that. Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:34

Been charged, And the Dallas sheriff had him come out and meet the press because the press said, we wanna talk to Lee. So he brought him out and

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:43

And he's just sort of standing there dumb

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:45

Oh, they sat him at a table with a microphone. I have

Steve Palmer [: 00:54:48

to go back and watch that and watch that series.

Norm Murdock [: 00:54:49

They were asking questions. And he and he's like, Well, I haven't been charged yet, and it was a member of the press, an AP reporter, that said, no no. I you have been charged, Lee, and he didn't even know that. And he's talking about how he's innocent. He doesn't understand why he's there, and it's a conspiracy, and he's being set up. And he he

Brett Johnson [: 00:55:10

just Was there a lawyer with him? No. He was just there?

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:13

Just and I'm thinking, oh my god. You talk about a situation that Miranda would have envisioned. Yeah. I mean, it was you know, basically, he was kinda mentally

Brett Johnson [: 00:55:26

Oh, and you would have to be.

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:28

I mean, he was a a little bit of a goof. Yeah. And, you know, anyway.

Brett Johnson [: 00:55:33

And you and you know, I thought those that are younger listening to us, 66 seems like forever forever ago. For us, it's like, I was only 66. I would have guessed it was probably in the forties or fifties.

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:44

Oh, Miranda. No. You know what I mean? I guess, like, why was

Brett Johnson [: 00:55:47

it not something for

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:49

fairly recent Yeah. Actually.

Steve Palmer [: 00:55:50

There you know, It's interesting. Miranda would not be this our current court would not decide Miranda that way.

Norm Murdock [: 00:55:57

Wow. Really? You don't think?

Steve Palmer [: 00:55:58

No. Not even close. I mean, there there is no there's nothing in the There's nothing in the 5th Amendment. The whether it's the 5th Amendment right to remain silent or 5th Amendment right to due process that

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:08

says to counsel.

Steve Palmer [: 00:56:09

And to well, that's the 6th Amendment.

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:10

To counsel.

Steve Palmer [: 00:56:11

So Miranda sort of bridges this weird 5th amendment, 6th amendment.

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:14

It does. Yes.

Steve Palmer [: 00:56:15

And it creates what it it creates a prophylactic procedural Right. That doesn't exist anywhere.

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:21

You know, you don't have

Steve Palmer [: 00:56:21

there's nothing in the constitution that says they have to read Miranda warnings to you before they interrogate you. Yeah. Now it would be resolved differently. Now it would be resolved that you have violated this person's right to remain silent by overcoming their will to confess, through questioning or whatever. That that body of law sort of existed before Miranda, and then Miranda sort of took off in this offshoot. Miranda doesn't make any sense in light of the constitution. It's sort of like, Look. It's it's it's in line with a bunch of string of cases out of Warren Court, not you know, including, Roe v Wade, or they they were just sort of taking the constitution where they wanted to.

Norm Murdock [: 00:56:52

Okay.

Steve Palmer [: 00:56:53

And Scalia would say, get rid of there's something else that sort of emerged in that area. It's called the The exclusionary rule and I think that goes back to a case called Wong Sun. It was a dry cleaning place or something. But, that was searched illegally, and and they made a decision to throw out the evidence. They couldn't the prosecution, the state, or the federal government can't use evidence seized as a result of an unlawful search. It's called fruit of a poisonous tree. And there's nothing in the constitution that says that. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:57:19

the nineties, maybe the early: 2000

Norm Murdock [: 00:57:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:57:35

But, you know, he was suggesting, like, you could file a lawsuit against the government a civil rights action to redress a violation of constitutional rights. And people would say, oh, that's ridiculous. But you always have to turn back the clock and start over. You can't You can't say what would it be if it happened now because we've had

Drew Palmer [: 00:57:50

the

Steve Palmer [: 00:57:50

exclusionary rule. So if you started over and say the police illegally searched my client's house and there was a, We developed a procedure where I immediately would go sue the government and ask for a remedy that they couldn't use the evidence. That might have emerged.

Norm Murdock [: 00:58:03

Right. And it

Steve Palmer [: 00:58:03

would have been a cleaner constitutional way to do

Norm Murdock [: 00:58:05

I see.

Steve Palmer [: 00:58:06

Yeah. But it would have had to emerge like it's like you talk to roofers and and and guys do sign, they say you have to be the water. So you have to sort of envision how things would would how things will Right. Follow gravity and and where they'll go.

Norm Murdock [: 00:58:19

I always called those abracadabra words. You know, like, the cop reads that off of a card, you know, that he probably carries taped to the back of his shield. Right? And he and he reads this This, rote language It's

Steve Palmer [: 00:58:32

really a stupid rule.

Norm Murdock [: 00:58:33

You know, do you understand that you have the blah blah blah blah blah? And it goes through the little list, and the guy bobs his head and Sign something.

Steve Palmer [: 00:58:40

And then they start interrogating. Yeah. So you know? And and it gives it it's actually made it somewhat worse for the defense because, You know, you're more like like, the even if you sign your Miranda waiver, then you've pretty much signed away any challenge, you know, to to the confession. Now you can still challenge the voluntariness. I've got a case right now where I'm trying to bring some of that back where we're saying, look. The the read technique, which is the police interview tactics

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:02

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:02

Designed to elicit statements, is is designed to sort of, psychologically overbear somebody's ability to to refuse questioning. And it produces all sorts of bad results. People have falsely confessed to crimes. It's been happening for years.

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:17

Probably the best thing at the Miranda warning is The thing where you have the right to remain silent. Yeah. Right? No.

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:24

It's shut the hell up.

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:25

Like, every good defense attorney you've always which you've always you know, like, you know, just Shut up. Shut up. Like, call me. Yeah. Well

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:32

the meantime

Norm Murdock [: 00:59:33

They got the hell off your point in time,

Brett Johnson [: 00:59:35

the cops are not on your side. They're not on

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:37

your side. They're not.

Brett Johnson [: 00:59:37

And let

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:38

me tell you something. Here here's the logic. If I had a dime for every time I've told somebody to shut the hell up and then they talk anyway because they got talked into it. Yeah. You know, so that sort of tells you it doesn't like, the cop telling you you have a right to remain silent isn't doesn't work. Because then they go through this series of questioning techniques and even how they present the rights. Like, even the body language is designed to get people to wave and talk. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 00:59:59

But you always have to think. Like, you just said, Brett, they're not on your side. They're here to prosecute a crime, not exonerate you.

Brett Johnson [: 01:00:04

Yeah. I I told both our kids that, that, you know, if you're ever in a situation like that, number 1, you call Steve. Number 2, just shut up. You don't you don't have to say anything.

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:12

You're not an innocent as

Drew Palmer [: 01:00:13

the day

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:14

is long.

Brett Johnson [: 01:00:14

To not shut up, To to say it will hurt you if you say something.

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:17

And here's and here's the here's the next thing you tell people. We can always go in and talk later.

Drew Palmer [: 01:00:23

Mhmm.

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:24

If it's the right thing to do. You can always do that later, and there's no penalty for that. Yeah. But you can't unring the bell once you talked.

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:31

Yeah. So, guys, the other 4th Amendment thing I'd like to get to is congress this week and I think it was part of the defense authorization, Bill, the DODA, I think they call it, where they, you know, give money to the Pentagon. Well, that includes the NSA, The National Security Administration, and there's this system of courts called the FISA court System

Steve Palmer [: 01:00:58

Mhmm.

Norm Murdock [: 01:00:59

Which are supposed to when a domestic agency like the FBI wants to get this data that's been collected By a foreign, intelligence gathering branch of the US government, the NSA, is there To spy on foreign governments, foreign agent provocateurs, you know, foreign threats. That's what the NSA is for. But the FBI, knowing the NSA is gobbling up all this phone traffic, through its massive computer systems, Has gone to the FISA court like they did with, you know, Trump's, you know, when the Russia collusion thing was in full bloom. They would go to the FISA court. It turns out they actually lied to the judge in a couple cases. And they would then get the all of these records, telephone, email, all the stuff that that had been hovered up By the NSA, the FBI would get it. It has come out, and I think we talked about this on a on another show. The FBI, In 1 year, had done 3,400,000 unauthorized downloads Outside of the FISA court directly from the NSA.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:20

Mhmm.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:21

And yet Congress, And we have a Republican house. They reauthorize the FISA system

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:28

It's horrible.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:28

This week. And in the face of this evidence that it's being Misused.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:34

Right. It it's just corruption. And so look, they're they're it's basically we have established then that the government is obtaining unlawfully. Evidence records, phone conversations, your communication, our communications. Everything.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:49

Everything. This podcast.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:51

And documenting it all.

Norm Murdock [: 01:02:52

The NSA has it.

Steve Palmer [: 01:02:53

And, and the and the government itself doesn't care that they're doing it. Right. That's no surprise.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:00

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:00

I don't care what side of the aisle you're on. This is why we talk about common sense.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:02

We'll protect you with the FISA court judge.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:04

Trusted with it.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:05

Yeah. The FISA judge, he's going to guard your You're you're right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:09

You're elected official that can be trusted with your personal private information. Well, then why don't you just go share your password keeper with them

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:15

too? Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:15

Right. See how it'll end. You know?

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:17

Exactly right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:17

Well, they're the government. They're trustworthy. Yeah. Here, take my password.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:20

I'm sure you'll be able to nothing to hide.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:22

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Bullshit.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:24

So what's wrong with you, Norm? You must have something to hide If you don't want the government No.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:27

I just don't trust you. Yeah. So my my response to all we've like, I I'm beating a dead horse here. My response is not that I have anything to hide. It's I don't trust what the government will do to manipulate the information and make me look guilty of something.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:40

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:40

Right? Fine. Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:41

You

Brett Johnson [: 01:03:41

know? Because it's a powerful entity.

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:43

It's a powerful entity.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:44

I'm buzzing in to work

Steve Palmer [: 01:03:45

up of corrupt people.

Norm Murdock [: 01:03:46

I'm buzzing in to our our our Our work meeting today with you guys. And on the radio, there's a CBS reporter at okay. That's a little sexist. Female reporter, and she's saying we can eliminate 100% of DUIs by Forging forward with these eyelid interpretation cameras inside modern cars now that will disable the starting system If it detects that you're fatigued or tired or impaired in some way. And I'm and she says 100% of all of the DUI deaths Out there on the highway, you know, why don't we do this? Well, honey, another way we could do it is just take everybody's keys away or, like Steve said, put a Machine gun on every

Brett Johnson [: 01:04:35

corner. Prohibit alcohol.

Norm Murdock [: 01:04:36

Yeah. Well, see That's how that works.

Steve Palmer [: 01:04:38

So if you get caught drinking, we we, put you in prison for life. It'll stop.

Norm Murdock [: 01:04:41

But, I mean, it shows you the status mentality of the murder.

Steve Palmer [: 01:04:45

I'm 99% stop.

Norm Murdock [: 01:04:46

Like like, just throw your hands up in the air and say, well, Adults can't be trusted to consume alcohol responsibly, you know, across the board, right, because there's always some that can't.

Steve Palmer [: 01:04:57

There's always a there's always a problem. And she And

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:00

she well, and she thinks the solution is to to Give the government enough power

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:05

to do whatever it takes to stop it.

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:07

A big brother in your car.

Brett Johnson [: 01:05:09

K. The next step is, okay, let's all wear these virtual glasses. Right. And then, like, when the glasses sense that you're pointing something at a Human.

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:17

Right. There you go.

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:18

That's beautiful, Brett. Wow.

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:20

And that too

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:20

That is beautiful, Brett. Minority reports.

Brett Johnson [: 01:05:23

Let's let's

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:23

see where the ring falls

Brett Johnson [: 01:05:24

on that Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:25

And then you know? But you're right. These unintended consequences always emerge. So you're gonna give the government enough power to Disable your car if it thinks that you're under the influence. Oh my You know? And you think that, well, that sounds good on its face, I guess, but you're not thinking about all the other adverse ways that technology is gonna be used. Right. And then, you know, if they can do that, why not just keep you in your house and you can't leave unless you really, really have to leave? Don't we already have China?

Brett Johnson [: 01:05:47

Don't we already have that a little bit For d y

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:50

We do.

Brett Johnson [: 01:05:50

Yeah. You you have a

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:51

small test or

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:52

something like that?

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:53

There there's a In

Brett Johnson [: 01:05:54

in your car.

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:55

Breath motion,

Steve Palmer [: 01:05:55

intellect devices, and car.

Norm Murdock [: 01:05:57

And And I can think of fact patterns where somebody who's impaired but maybe is in the process or is being threatened with rape or murder Gets behind the wheel of a car

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:08

But can't go anywhere they're gonna go anywhere.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:09

They can't go anywhere.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:10

So that's just 1. Right?

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:11

I mean, that's just 1.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:12

And and look. Not to mention, it's not gonna work. Right? So interlock devices in cars don't work. So what you're talking about, Brett, is, like, you go to you go to court, judge, finds you guilty of DUI. And as a consequence of your probation or your, a condition of your ability to drive for a limited purpose to and from work and, etcetera, is that you have to have an interlock device installed in your car. That's a device that's a little tube be blown too. And in theory, it won't let the car start if it detects alcohol. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:36

People get around that in so many ways. Like Oh, yeah. They'll they'll

Brett Johnson [: 01:06:38

look trick anything.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:39

People go to the bars and just leave their car running.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:41

Oh my god. You gotta be kidding me.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:43

It's the the technology is designed now. It's better now that they can sort of catch that thing.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:47

That's unbelievable. I've never heard of that before.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:49

You just have somebody else start it. Wow. Or, you know, when people use balloons, I've heard of people trying to use balloons. Oh, I mean, it's like People are gonna get around it.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:55

They are clever.

Steve Palmer [: 01:06:56

Yeah. Just gonna drive a different car that doesn't have that. Right.

Norm Murdock [: 01:06:59

It's an older Right. A beater. Right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:07:01

So and are they doing it unlawfully? Yes. They're breaking the law, but they're criminals. Wow. They're alcoholics. It's what they do. Exactly. Right? So but it doesn't this law is not gonna impact the criminals. It's gonna impact us.

Steve Palmer [: 01:07:11

Alright. So I got something else. I mean, we got more on this.

Norm Murdock [: 01:07:14

Well, I was just gonna do a public service announcement about the ed the so Ohio now has in place this what they call ED Choice, They're the voucher program. And, basically, for a family of 4 making this is just an example that that they have a big table, so you disclose your finances. But they for a family of 4 that's making under a 135,000 combined income, You can get the full voucher of 60 or $66,165 for k through 8 to spend at, you You know, the school of your choice. And for high school, $8,407, again, As a voucher to spend at your choice of a high school. And, it's a $2,000,000,000 program. It's in effect. You can go to OhioEd Choice, and, you know, put just search for that, and up will come the forms. You are still eligible through the spring.

Norm Murdock [: 01:08:19

Like, this school year, you can apply right now and still, qualify.

Brett Johnson [: 01:08:24

That doesn't force the busing system to pick your kid up to take them into the

Norm Murdock [: 01:08:27

It's not about busing. No.

Brett Johnson [: 01:08:29

No. Okay.

Steve Palmer [: 01:08:29

Mhmm. Yeah. I I I think anybody who who really digs into this from our from a common sense approach. The voucher system is the savior of the education system eventually.

Norm Murdock [: 01:08:39

This is what Thomas Sowell always wanted.

Drew Palmer [: 01:08:42

This is like

Steve Palmer [: 01:08:43

because it creates competition.

Norm Murdock [: 01:08:44

That's right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:08:45

You know? And, you know, you can't have it's it's gonna prevent the if the inner city schools are absolutely crap and not teaching anybody and they're They're run amok. Well, then people just won't go there, and they'll have to close.

Norm Murdock [: 01:08:55

Right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:08:56

Alright. Well, then what's gonna replace it? So, again, you have to follow the water. You know? There there's like, in in in some

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:01

schools public Schools are accepting these vouchers. So let's suppose you live in a bad school district

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:07

Or you wanna get to a good one.

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:07

And you wanna go to a good one. Right. The the neighboring school district, if they have chairs empty, some of them are taking these vouchers and saying, we'll take a kid from outside our district.

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:17

It's good.

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:18

Yeah. Competition between 2 public schools.

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:21

See what happens. So, you know, it's a

Brett Johnson [: 01:09:23

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Yeah. It it it will be, On honestly I

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:26

think the Scandinavian countries, like, the the beloved Scandinavian countries of the socialist elite, they they have vouchers.

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:32

Utopia.

Brett Johnson [: 01:09:33

Because, like, Well, this may go too deep, but I could also see okay. So if you and and I'm gonna play the other side of this. So I think there's more problems with the inner city schools than just the school system itself. It's the family Support.

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:44

No question.

Brett Johnson [: 01:09:45

Okay. So Correct.

Steve Palmer [: 01:09:46

The tough question. This will smoke that out and force a solution

Brett Johnson [: 01:09:49

to that.

Norm Murdock [: 01:09:50

Why condemn those students to stay in that system?

Brett Johnson [: 01:09:53

Could, Or you're looking at let's say, it's a it's the family that doesn't support their kid, but they see an opportunity to go to a better school, but they still don't support their kid in a better school.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:02

Yeah. Well, that problem still exists either way, I guess. So you you would I my my my, response would be, alright. So that problem exists under both scenarios. Let's at least solve the first one.

Brett Johnson [: 01:10:11

Yeah. True. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:14

So if the schools I agree. It's not every school's default.

Norm Murdock [: 01:10:17

That's right.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:17

Correct. I think no school's default.

Brett Johnson [: 01:10:19

I I I think It's it's not. Yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 01:10:21

I tell a student that he or she has to wait for 20 years for that district to get its shit together Right. Is unfair to that student. That student, He only has one chance at being lost.

Brett Johnson [: 01:10:31

Now. It's now. She's lost.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:32

Instead instead, the other side is is making them part of the agenda.

Norm Murdock [: 01:10:36

Yeah. That's rejected.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:37

It has no end.

Norm Murdock [: 01:10:38

And that purse the the little kid has no options, so now they do. So Yep.

Steve Palmer [: 01:10:42

Anybody would say you know, people ask Norm all the time, why Ohio? Why great. And Just ask Portsmouth, Ohio, which has now been deemed by the Hallmark Channel, the greatest Christmas town, or it's officially named Portsmouth, Ohio as a new town, Christmas town. Wow. Right. So which is interesting. You know?

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:03

And it is a nice town.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:04

It is. It's a and there's made a great comeback. A a a dear friend, and, he was he's deceased, unfortunately, but he's a lawyer. He went down there about 10 years ago to start a law practice, Jeremy Burnside, and and really got involved in the town Nice. More than 10 years, actually. And, you know, he he died recently and tragically. But, you know, he really revitalized a lot of that downtown area, and it's really a neat Old school town that you down there. It's got some river components.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:31

It's got some neat rest. I mean, it's it's a

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:33

good Christmas. Murals and

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:34

The murals Yeah. And the home of the Spartans, the original NFL. I think the 1st NFL game was played in Portsmouth, Ohio against Green Bay or

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:41

Did not know that. Wow.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:43

Portsmouth, Ohio makes it big

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:44

again. Good. I always figured it it was Canton.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:47

You know?

Drew Palmer [: 01:11:47

That's cool. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:48

I think

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:48

they have a shooting

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:49

spree factory down there too at some point. But Wow.

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:51

That's great, Cool.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:52

Ohio Ohio is, you know, the pro football starter.

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:55

Yeah. Dude, that's that's badass.

Steve Palmer [: 01:11:58

Yeah. It's badass.

Norm Murdock [: 01:11:59

There's another little, Like pro like, the feel good thing. I was reading in the automotive news that there's these 2 entrepreneurs, in Medina, Ohio, where the Packard Motor Company used to be where it was manufacturing cars back in the twenties thirties. And these were Rolls Royce Cadillac level cars that were exported to Europe because they were high end quality. These guys have restarted production of a kind, and and they haven't sold the 1st car, but they've done, They have a a a car, a prototype that's in their showroom, and they're well funded. They are looking for a factory site, and, It's right there. The guy bought all the intellectual property rights of the old Packard company.

Steve Palmer [: 01:12:47

That's awesome. Sounds like Tucker, the old Tucker story.

Norm Murdock [: 01:12:49

So they they created a Team 34 Convertible Packard from all new parts Please make with a modern drive truck.

Brett Johnson [: 01:12:58

It's e it's EV, though. Right?

Norm Murdock [: 01:13:01

They'll build they will build Oh, god. They will they will build an EV if that's what the customer wants.

Brett Johnson [: 01:13:06

Okay. No. Okay. I'll go

Steve Palmer [: 01:13:08

with that. I think it was a barbecue sauce commercial. These guy all these 3 guys. What are you eating? 52 packers.

Drew Palmer [: 01:13:15

Anyway, Well,

Steve Palmer [: 01:13:17

that you got I think that that's gonna wrap us up, I think. Holiday's coming, guys. You know? So Christmas we got 1 more before Christmas. Okay. So we'll, I wanna talk about the greatest Christmas movies all time, we'll do that next week. Nice.

Norm Murdock [: 01:13:28

Oh, that'll be great.

Steve Palmer [: 01:13:29

Yeah. Okay.

Norm Murdock [: 01:13:30

And isn't isn't that the the home with the Red Ryder BB gun thing? That's

Steve Palmer [: 01:13:35

in Ohio.

Norm Murdock [: 01:13:35

Yeah. I forget. What was it? Christmas story?

Steve Palmer [: 01:13:37

Christmas story. Yeah. Okay.

Norm Murdock [: 01:13:38

They made

Steve Palmer [: 01:13:39

sequel last year, I think. It So

Norm Murdock [: 01:13:40

we could talk about that too.

Brett Johnson [: 01:13:41

Oh, yeah.

Norm Murdock [: 01:13:42

Because I think it just got sold.

Steve Palmer [: 01:13:43

It got sold. That was in the news. There was, like, people Yeah. There there was some controversy going on.

Norm Murdock [: 01:13:47

Well, we'll talk about it. Yeah. That's that's good fodder, man.

Steve Palmer [: 01:13:50

Good. But, yeah, get your put your movie hats on. I do this every year. So we have the greatest Christmas songs or carols and then the greatest Christmas movies of all time. Clarence, is that you?

Norm Murdock [: 01:14:00

You know?

Steve Palmer [: 01:14:02

So, common sense ohio show .com is where you can check us out. You can, like and subscribe on all the social media that's attended to commonsense ioshow.com. If you don't know where to go find that and you don't know social media much like we here at commonsense ohioshow.com, you can just go to commonsense ohio show dot can I see? I keep saying that over and over. Com commonsense ohio show dot com, and you can click on the icons. They'll take you to where you need to be. You can subscribe to the podcast there. You can check out the blogs. You can check out the old content.

Steve Palmer [: 01:14:28

Lots of stuff going on soon. You we have, some sponsorship opportunities for, the masses. But if you wanna be a business sponsor, please just reach out to us. Again, you can do that at commonsenseohioshow.com. Thanks to Drew who had to leave, my son who is, going to work. Boy, that sort of makes a dad proud, doesn't it?

Norm Murdock [: 01:14:48

That's awesome. You're going

Steve Palmer [: 01:14:48

to work. That?

Norm Murdock [: 01:14:49

That's awesome.

Steve Palmer [: 01:14:50

Going to work. He's like, hey. Come down and watch part of your show? I can't stay for the whole thing though. I got a job.

Norm Murdock [: 01:14:53

College student that's got a side gig. I love it. It shows out.

Steve Palmer [: 01:14:57

Say I was doing that at his age. I was probably partying like a rock star.

Norm Murdock [: 01:15:00

Yeah. I was. I'm I was like Drew. I had a had a job, man. Good for him. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [: 01:15:05

If I had a job, I would you know? Total respect. It wasn't an 8 to 5 job. But

Norm Murdock [: 01:15:08

anyway respect.

Steve Palmer [: 01:15:09

So common sense ioshow.com where we are coming at you right from the middle of Ohio at least until now.

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