Brad Kessler joins us for a discussion of establishing healthy boundaries and self-care practices, highlighting the need for ministers to maintain their spiritual, emotional, and physical vitality. Through this dialogue, we seek to illuminate the importance of ethical leadership and the sustenance of one's character in the face of demanding roles within ministry. Dick Foth highlights the critical concept of compassion fatigue, a phenomenon that arises when individuals, particularly in ministry, become emotionally depleted due to the relentless demands of their roles. Dick Foth, our esteemed guest, articulates his personal experience with this fatigue, emphasizing the necessity for ministers to strike a balance between their responsibilities and personal well-being. He elucidates the concept of benevolent detachment, which involves supporting others without becoming enmeshed in their struggles, thereby preserving one's emotional health.

Takeaways:

• In the realm of ministry, one must be acutely aware of compassion fatigue, which can arise from the relentless demand to meet the needs of others, ultimately leading to emotional depletion.
• The concept of benevolent detachment is crucial; it allows a minister to support others without becoming overly enmeshed in their struggles, thereby preserving their own emotional health.
• The ministerial ethics discussed emphasize that the moral standards for ministers should be elevated, as their failures can have significantly detrimental impacts on their congregations.
• A solid understanding of biblical ethics serves as a lighthouse, guiding ministers through the complexities of moral decision-making and helping them avoid potential pitfalls in their ministry journey.

Foreign.

Welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be here today with our friend of the podcast, Dick Foth.

Dick, welcome for another session of Back Channel with Foath.

Thank you.

How about that?

That is hard to believe, but here we are.

And we are flying.

We are flying.

And God is.

God is good, for sure.

So, Dick, got two questions for you today.

The first one is, have you ever had a time in your life when you had compassion fatigue?

You know, that's a very interesting phrase.

And can you just.

I think I know, but can you elaborate on that combination of words, compassion fatigue, for just a moment?

I'll toss the question back to you.

You know, I don't know.

Obviously I didn't write the question, but my.

In the missions world, compassion fatig.

My understanding of it would be when somebody is, you know, carrying in a missional context, or maybe it could be in the US and you're pouring out, you're pouring out, and you just become wore down from constantly giving out.

That would be my assumption of what they mean by it.

Does that, does that make sense?

Yeah, that's how I read it.

But, you know, I think I did as a young pastor, I started pastoring a huge congregation of 15 people when I was 24 years old at the University of Illinois.

Back in the last century, what they call mid century when they sell furniture these days on tv, call it mid century.

Don't try to be cool.

But back in 66, Ruth and I drove from California to East Central Illinois, University of Illinois to do a church plant.

And when you start with 15, you're going 1,000 miles an hour, because whatever, you're just starting anything.

You're going a thousand miles an hour.

And I think as a young pastor, I probably came to the place, especially when things started to grow.

And it wasn't 15, it was 150 or 250.

I think I suffered from trying to meet every apparent need, and I emphasize the word apparent all at the same time.

There's this thing when you're young on the one hand, of wanting to be valued.

You can frame it any way you want, make your mark, do something for Jesus, whatever language you want to use, that I'm valued in this arena, whatever it is, and I'm hopefully bringing positive things and light to a darkness.

And for example, we had four small kids and I'd get a call and.

And it was an emergency, and I said, I'm sorry, I have to leave, you know, I got to go.

And it took me several years to figure out that every emergency was not an emergency or that most emergencies could wait 24 hours.

And, and I think the larger something gets, or the, or the thing, if it's, quote, successful by whatever metrics people choose, I think it's easy to start suffering from the pedestal syndrome, that I'm the leader, I'm on the pedestal, and people are expecting me to be the answer person here.

And I'm trying to give an answers when oftentimes I have more questions than answers.

And I think that sort of answers the question for me.

Do you ever have a time in your life when that, when you felt that that would be it?

Yeah.

Good word, good word.

Being that the pedestal for sure would lead you toward that, that end.

Dick, this is a question from a different person.

Someone told me I needed to learn benevolent detachment.

What are your thoughts on it?

Or they put it on benevolent attachment.

You're throwing out these combinations of words.

Today we got compassion fatigue, benevolent detachment.

So.

Part of me says that means I like you, but I'm not going there.

It's sort of that kind of phrase.

And I love the phrase, by the way.

Love it in the sense of it makes me think.

Yeah, it's sort of in the basket with what therapists often call a non anxious presence for me.

And by that it's a presence, a non anxious presence in someone's life might not always solve the problem, but doesn't add to the problem because sometimes people come in and want to help and they just, you know, it's sort of like watching one of those forensic programs, csi, and the cops get upset because Fred Farkle came in, he wanted to help and he walked all over the evidence.

And you know, but I think in trying to frame it in my mind, what's being asked here is how about something like this benevolent detachment for me might mean I am for you in this moment, but I can't be with you in this mud.

I'm for you in the moment, but I can't be with you in this mud.

That, that I have to not emotionally connect with every situation in such a way that I end up with that compassion fatigue.

You know, I think these, these are playing off each other in a certain sense.

And Ruth, Ruth and I being older, you know, we're, we're not watching Matrix or Avatar on television or some of these new things.

You know, we're watching Antiques Roadshow because we want to identify with whatever, but, but we like British stuff.

A lot, you know, and, and there, there's a program called Saving Lives at Sea, and it's, and it's about the Royal National Life Saving Institution.

There are, I think 5, 000, locate or, or hundreds of locations around the British Isles, which is the island nation.

And, and they have life lifeboat stations, life saving community, and all of the, virtually all, except on the Thames river, are volunteers.

Wow.

And, and, and they'll save people and they'll save animals.

And they have this thing about saving dogs.

And they said when you hear that a dog's in danger, you get in the boat and you get there as quick as you can because what will happen is that the owner, if they can't see any other way, will jump into the water, the surf, whatever it is to save the animal.

And oftentimes we save the.

An lose the person.

Wow.

And that as a metaphor for what we're talking about here, is that, is that I can't, I can't help you if I'm in it too far with you.

Yeah, good word, Good word.

Dick, always appreciate your, your ways to bring in illustrations and your wisdom and insight.

We're going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Brad Kessler on ministerial ethics.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started, so here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to have a new friend of the podcast with us.

Brad, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Aaron.

Thanks for having me on.

Brad, I got to read your book and found it insightful and I've got to actually serve.

You've been in the background of some of the meetings I've been with, so I've got to know you a little bit that way.

But those who have not got to know you yet, will you go ahead and share a little bit about yourself?

And then I'm going to jump into.

I got a long list of questions for you today, so share this a little bit about yourself.

All right.

Thanks, Aaron.

Yeah, so I'm from Alaska.

That's the first fun fact about me.

And so I grew up on an island in southeast Alaska called Sitka and, you know, spent some time as a, as a youth pastor and as a pastor and worked in the district office for the Assemblies of God in Alaska for about 16 years, nine of those as the district secretary and, and then moved here to Springfield to be the title is the assistant to the General Secretary.

It's actually a brand new, brand new title.

Married, We've got three kids and three grandkids.

Wow.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

So what was it like growing up on an island off the coast of Alaska?

Oh, I loved it.

My.

My parents were both teachers, and my dad was a commercial fisherman as well, so we spent every summer out on the boat.

Sometimes we'd be out for three weeks at a time without touching dry land.

Wow.

It was.

Yeah, it was a magical childhood.

Loved it.

I love the fish.

What was he catching on the boat?

What were you catching on the boat?

We caught salmon.

Okay.

Wow.

Wow.

So you got.

You had good eating, too, for sure.

So, Brad, you wrote a book, I think, very insightful for the time we live in, about ethics, ministerial ethics specifically.

So the first question I have for you is, how do you do distinguish ministerial ethics from morals and from the law?

Yeah.

So, first of all, it's important to distinguish.

The Bible doesn't really list differing levels of morals for ministers and people in the congregation.

You know, there's not just.

You know, people in the congregation have to have one level, but ministers have to have a higher level.

Okay.

You know, for all of.

All of God's people, we're all called to live ethically, really, as a thank you to God's saving grace in our lives.

Many topics that are covered in the book are equally applicable to ministers and church workers alike.

However, there are some ethical issues that are unique to the assignment for ministers.

And some examples would include how we shepherd and lead the people of God, how we interact with other ministers in our fellowship, how we conduct ministry tasks such as preaching.

Those are some examples.

But also, I would also add on, the Bible says that teachers will be judged more strictly.

And, you know, in considering that, you know, a minister is an example and a pattern for the flock to follow.

And when a pastor or ministry leader has a moral failure, it can have a devastating impact on the church.

And so those are just some of my thoughts.

They're not different levels, but the impact can be different on the congregation.

Yeah.

And.

And maybe some specific areas that would apply more to ministers.

Yeah, no, it's a good word.

Good word.

You know, I remember in one of my.

I did a master's in business, and it was.

We took.

I took ethics in my medical background classes, but it was in one of those classes in that they just talked about, you know, there is the law, but as followers of Christ, we should be living by an ethical and moral standard.

That's.

That's a.

You know, it's.

It's not.

The law would be kind of the.

The lower level.

And as moral and ethical reasons will be will be higher and not to, you know, as a, in business, not to be just functioning by the law.

Of course you want to obey the law, but also as Christians, we're, we're called to a higher standard.

And you've, you've, you've highlighted that.

So you talk about giftings, callings and capacities and that they're rooted in holy character.

Can you unpack that for us?

Yeah.

So, you know, it's interesting to note that in the qualifications for ministers in First Timothy, they're almost all of them dealing with character and not gifting.

In fact, there's only one qualification that's, that's more ability related and that's being able to teach.

Okay.

And the rest of them are, you know, above reproach, you know, sober minded, you know, on and on like that.

God's given us giftings, callings and capabilities and we have the privilege of growing in those areas.

At general counsel, I was impacted by a message.

I think it was Dr. Renee Braithwith.

And he talked about sharpening your ax, right?

And he said, sharper axe makes a deeper cut.

Talking about growing in your education.

And that really struck me.

And so I want to continue to grow in my giftings and capabilities and calling.

But, you know, if we just build our, our ministry on a platform of our gifting and don't have the character to support it, that that platform is going to collapse.

It's not going to be able to hold the weight.

And so it's so important that we build on a foundation.

And I think, Aaron, that's why in First Timothy, the qualifications didn't say, boy, you've got to have a really good voice.

You know, you have to have your, you know, your, your technical skills have to be on point.

Right.

No, it's yet to be above reproach.

And I think that's why Paul started there.

Yeah.

And you know, I think just from serving admissions for 20 plus years, the challenges people faced when they got to the field wasn't, weren't necessarily, I didn't necessarily see the enemy attack them when it came to their preaching ability or with their, their capacity thing, but I did see the enemy attack them when it came to their character.

And under those, those stressful transition times, you would see it.

And it was I, and that's one of the reasons I started this podcast.

I saw it too much and I wanted to see clarity in life and mission and that to have conversations like this so that we didn't, didn't people didn't continue to fall into the same or drift into the same direction and end up in the same place.

So.

So you share about a solid understanding and application of biblical ethics and the importance of that to set them up for a lifetime of fruitful ministry.

So how do those two things correlate a solid understanding and application of biblical ethics and then a lifetime of fruitful ministry?

I love this question.

So part of the.

The metaphor.

There's kind of a couple metaphors in the book that I use.

One of them is a lighthouse.

And I tell the story of.

And it struck an uncharted rock and it sunk.

Everything was lost.

All the people, all the gold.

It was a tragedy.

And so that prompted Congress to build a lighthouse on that place.

And of course, the lighthouse warns people of hidden danger.

And I see the Bible as the lighthouse.

You know, it lights up areas that are.

That are dangerous for us.

But also, you know, I mentioned that my dad was a fisherman growing up and we never went into a new area without a nautical chart.

Okay.

Right.

And the nautical chart kind of shows all the hidden dangers, all the shallow areas, submerged dangers.

And kind of the way I see it is under.

Having a solid foundation of ethics is like that nautical chart and like that lighthouse in that it shows us where all the.

The danger areas are.

You know, just like you, I've seen too many ministers shipwreck their lives because they didn't have a solid understanding.

Some burned out because of unhealthy rhythms in their life and ministry.

Some just could not get along with the lead pastor or a staff pastor, another missionary, you know.

Yeah.

Some because of a moral failure.

And it really breaks my heart to see the.

The lives that have not been ministries that have not been able to make it to the finish line because of not having this solid understanding and application.

Really, that's.

That's the main reason I wrote this book, Aaron, is because I.

People to be able to finish well in ministry, go the distance and not shipwreck.

Yeah.

Now, I.

Boy, I'm not naive enough to think that if we write a book on ethics that we're never going to have another ethical problem.

Sure.

But.

But if we can at least become aware, a little bit more aware of what those issues are, I think it can help us.

Yeah.

And you do you shine.

You know, you shine a light on this area, which I think is.

Is super valuable, and I think it gives a Warning, just as a lighthouse, you know, I mean, in the Bible gives us warning.

Ultimately, people will make their own decisions.

You know what I mean?

But with your discussion in the book like this, it gives us insight.

Then ultimately we make the own decision.

But we can't say we weren't warned and we didn't have a warning and we weren't forewarned.

So you mentioned just the burnout.

And you want to see ministers be able to finish and have a lifetime of fruitful ministry.

In the book, you talk about the spiritual, mental, physical and intellectual tanks and the importance of those to live a life of character and integrity.

Could you share just some more about that?

Yeah.

And again, going back to the fishing illustration.

Sorry, it's.

It's.

No, it's good.

I'm a fisherman.

I'm a fisherman.

I'm a fisherman.

I like it.

If you hear funny sounds going on here, we got some construction going on in the building here, so please forgive us.

It's pro.

It's the sound of progress.

There you go.

So when I was on my dad's fishing boat growing up, we heard of a lot of shipwrecks that would happen.

And, you know, oftentimes what would happen is that fishermen would fish all night long and be exhausted and then come inside in the warm cabin as they're steering the boat, and they would fall asleep at the wheel and then they would shipwreck.

It's because they were worn out.

And, you know, similarly, ministers are at risk of succumbing to temptation when they're tired.

And I think to.

To help mitigate against that, we keep our tanks filled.

So you mentioned four of them that I talked about.

The spiritual tank.

Our ministry should flow from a vibrant, living relationship with our Lord.

Jesus talks in John 15 that he is divine and we're the branches.

And then when we abide in him, we're going to bear much fruit.

And, you know, I think we all know the answers to how we abide in Him.

It's just a matter of doing it right.

You know, we got to pray, read our Bible, participate in a community of believers, that type of thing.

And then of course, our physical tank, making healthy life decisions, exercising, eating well, getting enough sleep.

Again, there.

There's not really a secret to that.

Right.

It's just a matter of being disciplined.

And I think prioritizing it and realizing, you know, we're holistic people.

And when we're, when we're worn out and tired physically, it's going to affect our spiritual life as well.

Yeah, and then our emotional and mental health.

This is really important.

We've all heard the statistics about ministers and mental health ministers are increasingly stressed.

But, you know, the good news is that God provided the best remedy for relieving stress, and that's the Sabbath.

Now, I have to, I have to confess.

This is a safe place, right?

Sure, sure.

I have to confess that throughout much of my ministry, I was not real good and faithful about taking a Sabbath day.

Yeah.

You know, sometimes I was a bi vocational minister.

And, you know, you work throughout the week on Monday through Friday at your other job, and then you, you know, get ready on Saturday to preach on Sunday.

Yeah, and, and I get that lots of people listening are dealing with those issues, but in the last couple years, I've really been intentional about taking the Sabbath day, and it, it's so nice and really beneficial.

And I think it's, it's, it's just kind of like a relief valve that God's given us to be able to connect with him and relieve stress.

So if our listeners aren't, aren't taking the Sabbath day, if there's one thing they can take away today, start doing that.

It's a, you know, God.

God made the Sabbath for man.

Yeah, it's a good word.

So, yeah, that's.

And then also long emotional and mental health.

You know, find a hobby that you enjoy doing.

For me in Alaska, it was wildlife photography.

And I love getting out in nature when there's no one else around and no cell coverage.

And it was in those times, I wasn't thinking about work at all.

Yeah, just thinking about having fun and enjoying the Lord's presence.

And you got.

Everyone's got to find something to do where they're relaxed and not thinking about work and ministry for a little bit.

Yeah, good deal.

What's one of them?

And then.

Oh, and then last one, Sorry, the intellectual one.

Just simply, you know, reading books, podcasts, learning that type of thing.

Yeah.

I was going to ask you what was one of your favorite pictures?

You, you said you love to take wildlife photography.

I would imagine, Alaska, you have quite a plethora of things to choose from to take pictures of.

Do you have a favorite one?

Oh, boy.

Well, I love taking pictures of northern lights.

I've got some really nice pictures of that and then got some great pictures of moose and bear and muskox.

Very, very cool.

I don't know that I have a favorite, but I have to say that coming to Missouri, it's taken a really hit, a real big hit on my wildlife Photography or.

Or different.

But, you know, I took a.

Anyway, I took a picture of a toad in my front yard the other week, and my.

My daughter saw me doing it.

She said, boy, you've.

You've reached a low.

You went from Africa taking pictures of African animals to taking a picture of a toad in your front yard.

Another question I have for you today is you share a model, and this was super valuable for me.

I love models because I can read a book and great concepts, but these are.

Models are things I can take home, whether that's decision making.

And so you talk about making ethical decisions and you give a model and you give the first step in that, which I thought was super insightful for me.

So what is the first step in the model and some reasons that you start with that?

Yeah, so first of all, this model I got actually from Don Dietrich and the Northwest Ministry Network, it's lifted with permission from them for the book.

And so, yeah, it's a really helpful model because one thing is you write a book on ethics, and you know how it is, the next week there's going to be a new ethical issue that you didn't cover in the book.

That's true.

We live in a rapidly changing environment.

Who would have thought, you know, 100 years ago we were going to be dealing with AI and Internet.

So, yeah, so the first, the first step in the model is to clarify the situation.

This is because so often we're dealing with inaccurate or wrong information.

And so if we cut through the emotion, make sure we have the right information.

And you know, oftentimes with.

With our relationships with other people, we might hear like, let's say a pastor hears.

Here's that one of their congregants said something about them.

Well, of course, you know, what you want to do is you want to go right away and just address with that person and get mad at them.

But you might be dealing with incorrect information.

And so if you can just go get.

Go to the source and.

And clarify the situation, what was actually said.

And that really goes with.

With all situations.

We need to make sure we have the right information and so we can make the right decision.

Yeah, good.

Good word, Good word.

And then one of the other things you talk about is how a minister can navigate understanding the priorities and values when they're.

When they're making ethical decisions.

What are some reasons that priorities and values are important and in that understanding?

Yeah, so our values and our priorities can really help serve as filters for how we make decisions.

So, for example, if you're you know, you might really value your relationships with other people, your friends and your family.

And so when you're making a decision about something, you would.

You would filter it through that value to make sure that you're honoring that value in the decision that you make.

Obviously, if you're married, you're going to value commitment to your spouse.

And so.

So if you're trying to decide, well, should I have an affair with this person or not, you know, I know that sounds silly, but, you know, if you stop and consider it, that's going to violate that value that you have.

You have kids and you want to spend time with them.

That's going to.

That's going to inform that as well.

For sure.

For sure.

One of the other things, conversations in the book that I thought was valuable was the relationship between ethics and power.

The relationship between ethics and power, and I think that's probably in our world today, is something that just becomes more prominent and prominent.

So.

Yeah, can you.

Can you share more about that?

The relationship between ethics and power?

Yeah, this is really important.

It's something we're hearing about more and more.

I think it's more, you know, coming to light.

So, first of all, of course, we know God's the source of all power, and he shares his power with humans for a variety of purposes.

Right?

He makes the stewards of creation.

He gave us authority first in civil governments, but he also established spiritual authority.

When we look at these three delegations of authority, if you will, humans have used those for evil and for good over the years, all three of them.

We've abused creation or we've stewarded creation.

Yeah.

We've had civil governments used for good purposes and for bad purposes.

And unfortunately, with spiritual authority, it's been used and it's been misused.

Now, Jesus taught and modeled for us the proper use of spiritual authority.

But you are not to be like that.

Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

So we're not supposed to lord our authority over people, but we're supposed to serve.

And I think the ethical challenge is to use our spiritual authority in a biblical manner to serve people and not to lord authority over them.

And just one note about spiritual abuse.

We often learn our leadership styles from others and this seems to be one.

It's really hard to be self aware because it's one where when someone is, is using these practices, these abusive practices, it's hard for them to know they're doing it because that's kind of the leadership style that they were, they grew up in.

And so just one note, it's really hard to be self aware.

So if you, if you think you might struggle with some of these, talk with someone who maybe is outside your circle.

That could really help, help to evaluate that.

Wow, wow, wow.

That's, that's very interesting that you're not, not necessarily self aware of what you're doing.

And I think that that speaks to the realities of it.

And so one of the things you talk about when it comes to a misuse of spiritual authority is excessive accountability.

So what are some ways excessive accountability could be a misuse of spiritual authority or even can be considered spiritually abusive?

Yeah.

So really to sum it up, this is when the spiritual leader takes more control over the life of believer than he or she should.

An example would be when a leader requires a believer to get permission from the leader before making life decisions.

They can't get married, can't get a new job, can't buy a new car without seeking permission from the leaders.

And this is really a prime example of lording our authority over people.

You know, I believe that God wants believers to hear from the Lord themselves.

And we don't need to go through an intermediary.

You know, of course we're always free and encouraged to seek wisdom from our leaders.

Right.

If I, if I was a, a young person getting married, you know, I might seek out my pastor and say, hey, do you think this sounds good?

But I wouldn't expect the pastor to say, you cannot do that.

You're forbidden from marrying that person.

I think at that point that's when it kind of crosses over from godly giving godly wisdom to excessive accountability.

It's about control.

Yeah.

Wow.

Very interesting.

People may have heard about that from the shepherding movement back in the, I think, 70s, something that happened a lot back then.

Wow.

And so kind of on the same thread you give some recommendations on if somebody finds himself in A spiritually abusive situation.

How they could leave that.

What are, what.

Could you share some of those recommendations with us?

Yeah.

Some of these thoughts originated from a message I heard from Dr. Jim Bradford at Central Assembly, I think, last year.

And he, he was preaching about being in an abusive situation, and he was talking about Saul and David.

Remember, Saul was throwing spears at David.

And there's a couple points that he, that he made that really impacted me.

One of them is that David did not throw spears back at Saul.

And the second one is that David made good his escape.

And, and so I would say if you find yourself in an abusive situation, it's not healthy for you.

You know, it's kind of like if a wife is in an abusive, physically abusive relationship with her husband, you would say, you need to get out of that.

That's not a good situation for you to be in.

That's not safe.

It would be similar spiritually.

You know, it would be wise to, to prayerfully consider leaving that situation, but in doing so, don't throw spears back.

Now, this isn't to say that you shouldn't have a conversation with appropriate leaders on the way out, because, you know, there might be some.

That situation might need to be corrected.

Yeah.

And it'd be good to talk to some appropriate leaders, whether it's in your.

Your district or regional leadership, wherever the case may be, to report that properly to the right people so it could get dealt with.

But, you know, nowadays what we're tempted to do is to post our grievances on social media.

And, you know, I'm concerned that sometimes when we do that, it hurts.

It hurts the, the person who is, who is abused even, even more so because it draws attention to that.

And also, it's not good for the cause of Christ and community.

So I think we need to be real careful about that when things are happening to us that we.

We report to the right people.

So it could be dealt with.

But I, I don't personally don't really think it's wise to be, you know, really engaged on social media about that.

That would be an example of throwing a spear back.

Yeah.

And.

And a conversation earlier today, someone said, you know, that when you take something to social media, that's the court of the whole world.

I mean, it's, there's no, there's no real limits to that.

And so I think when there are personal situations you've been through, I do think it's valuable to, to have a safe place to do that.

And like you said, we're not, you're not trying to cover over, over things, but same time walking that healthy way, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

You don't want to, you know, nobody wants to cover anything up for sure because you want to bring things to the light.

But you know, we have to remember in social media there's believers, unbelievers.

It's like you're in a crowded room.

Shouting something and, and that like, and like he said, the gentleman shared with me today was, you know, it's like playing it out in the world Court.

You know, I mean, you're right.

You have everyone, everyone's there and everyone has access to it.

So it's, it's, it can be challenging.

It can be challenging.

You hit on a lot of the tender subjects.

So I'm going to move on to another tender one about clergy sexual misconduct.

Clergy sexual misconduct.

And what constitutes that?

Is there specific things that make it sexual misconduct?

And yeah, just more.

I'm happy you addressed all the hard issues.

You didn't stay away and just keep it a book on ethics for the easy ones you hit, the ones that are, that have greatly impacted people's lives and have, have profound impact.

So.

Yeah.

Can you share just a little bit more about what constitutes clergy sexual misconduct?

Yeah.

So I want to first talk about some of the kind of general categories.

And these aren't necessarily official categories.

These are ones that I kind of developed a little bit.

Okay, but then, but then maybe we could follow up with what really makes this clergy sexual misconduct really, really egregious.

Okay, so first of all, just some of the, some of the general categories, and this would be between a clergy and a congregate.

I would call inappropriate physical contact.

And this can happen when a minister has a immoral physical relationship with a congregant.

It could be in person or digital.

Common violation is sexting, texting, nude photos, that type of thing.

Another category would be an emotional affair.

And this.

There may not be any physical contact or anything overtly sexual, but this is when a relationship between a minister and a person in the ministry resembles a romantic relationship with emotional intimacy and bonding.

And of course, we're talking about instances where one of one of the people is married.

We're not talking about two single people here.

Another category is what I call unwelcome behavior.

And this includes both intentional behavior such as inappropriate touching, communications, sexual assault, as well as what I would call unintentional behavior.

Sometimes ministers don't have a solid understanding of proper behavior.

And what gets passed off as a locker room talk does not glorify God or respect other people.

And so we have to be really wise with our interactions with others and not cross boundaries such as, you know, inappropriate comments on how a person looks or sexual jokes, you know, inappropriate touching, that type of thing.

It seems like not all ministers.

Have.

A proper training on that and what might be proper.

So that's just really good to think about, think about how our actions impact others.

And then the worst one, in my opinion, is inappropriate behavior with a minor.

And this would include not only intercourse, but other in person or digital activities, you know, like fondling, grooming, inappropriate communications, viewing pornography.

There's one practice to be avoided that I want to highlight and that some, sometimes people don't consider that's an adult texting or direct messaging a minor.

This is especially something that youth pastors need to watch out for.

A best practice if a miter needs to be communicated with is to add the parent, your spouse, or another trusted adult to the communications thread.

Oftentimes, you know, inappropriate relationships will be developed between just a single adult and a minor texting.

And it's just the best practice not to do that.

Wow.

Well, like I said, you didn't, you didn't differentiate.

But it's.

These are, these are hard ones.

And so another one you talked about was this the power differential that makes a clergy sexual misconduct with congregants egregious.

So how does that power differential speak into this?

All sexual misconduct is.

That's right.

It, the Bible speaks against that.

Right, but you share that when it's, when clergy is involved, it makes it egregious.

Can you, can you share about that?

Yeah.

So any, any ministry leader, whether they're a pastor, a missionary, campus ministry leader, Christian counselor, they're in a position of authority and trust with the congregant.

And I want to give you a quote from Stanley Grins and Roy Bell.

And they say that sexual misconduct in the pastorate, or I would add any, any ministry you're involved with, is a grave betrayal of trust that operates in two directions.

It's a violation of a sacred sexual trust, barring the beautiful picture God has given of the relationship of Christ and the church.

And it's a violation of a power trust abusing the privilege of the pastoral position with which the ordained leader has been endowed by the church and its Lord.

And so, you know, you have the, the minister is, it's an extension of Christ.

It's a picture of Christ in the church.

And it's instead of ministering, if the ministry uses that power that they have to gain favor and to gain a relationship with someone that's really heinous, that that's really a bad thing.

And I'm not saying that the intentions are always evil with the minister because I don't think the intent.

I think normally the minister does not intend to have an affair with someone.

They just have not set up proper boundaries.

But boy, we have to guard against this at all costs because it does so much damage in the church.

It's not a new problem.

Eli's sons use their position to commute sec.

Commit sexual sin.

King David used his leadership position to invite Bathsheba.

And in both, in both cases, God brought serious judgment to the parties involved.

And one thing I want to mention, Aaron, is that some states have actually enacted laws that make clergy sexual misconduct a criminal offense.

So of course, we're, we're talking today about biblical ethics and we're talking about what, an even higher law.

Right, sure.

That doing what, what's important in the Lord's eyes and to protect, protect the church.

But, but it is also a crime in some states.

Wow.

Well, that is very, very interesting.

Very, very interesting.

One of the other areas you touched on that I thought was valuable and, and wanted to ask you about today, just because many of the missionaries, global workers around the world are serving solo and sometimes there's some misconceptions when it comes to those who are single or serving solo in ministry.

Could you share a few of those misconceptions?

And then I'm going to ask you one more question and then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

So could you.

Yeah.

Just a question about misconceptions of those serving single or solo in ministry.

Yeah.

Thanks.

And I want to take this opportunity to mention that our general secretary, Donna Barrett, has made some great contributions to the book.

And one of the contributions that she made was about thriving being single in ministry because, as you know, she's single.

Yeah.

And, and so she's really knowledgeable about this topic and she really made some valuable contributions.

And so what I'm going to give you comes from her.

But one interesting thing is that 46% of, of Americans are single.

Okay.

Of American adults, but 94 of ministers in the Assemblies of God are married.

And so when the, the pastor or, you know, or missionary who is, who is usually married is speaking and ministering, they're using illustrations for married people, not thinking about the fact that, that nearly half of their, the people they're ministering to are single.

And so, so we really need to be Sensitive and understand that the people, you know, the people that we're ministering to, that's nearly half, are single.

And so that's.

That's a good thing to keep in mind.

But some of the.

The misconceptions that you'd asked about, first of all, is that single adults should be willing to do the same service for less pay because they don't have a family to support.

Right.

But really it should be fair pay for appropriate service.

You know, you get paid for what the.

What the job is worth and not based on marital status.

Yeah.

So that's.

That's a good one.

So another one is that single adults can work longer hours and weekends because they don't have a family to go to.

But, you know, of course, that's not fair because single people have just as much of a life as married people.

Sure.

Just because they.

They may not have, you know, a husband or wife to go home to or kids.

They have a life that they're actively involved with.

Yeah.

And so I think really the main thing here is we want to treat people the same.

And then your earlier point about a Sabbath.

Right.

You know, that it's not just Sabbath, just for married people, it's a Sabbath for everyone.

And so back to your other point, too.

We want everyone to have that opportunity.

Sorry, I interrupted.

You had a few more.

Oh, yeah, no, that's.

That's a really good point.

You know, we don't want to drive single people into the ground.

Right.

We want.

We want everyone to thrive.

Yeah.

For sure.

And then the third one is that single adults pose a higher risk for moral failure.

There's a.

Sometimes a pastor might not want to hire a staff person if they're single because they might see them as a risk for moral failure because they're single.

And they might, you know, might have a failure there.

But.

But there's no data that supports that.

That's inaccurate to say that.

So.

Wow.

Really?

I think it's about being aware.

Yeah.

And.

And treating everyone fairly.

Yeah.

I love it when Paul said, you know, he said he wished that everyone could be like him.

You know, speaking of his singleness.

Paul valued his singleness.

Yeah.

And, you know, I like to think that whether we're single or whether we're married, if we could view that as a gift of God, you know, if we're married, it's a gift from the Lord.

If we're single, it's a gift from the Lord.

And.

Good word.

Good word.

Brad, my last question for you is.

Is there a question you said, wow, Aaron, I wish you really would ask me that because I was ready to answer that question, but you didn't ask or anything else you would want to add.

And then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

No, I don't think so.

You already asked a question about my favorite wildlife picture, so I think we're covered.

Oh, man.

You know, the, the, the, the one.

I think the one thing that, that I would mention is the last chapter in the book.

I talk about establishing healthy systems in the church.

And, and, you know, the rest of the book it talks about as a minister.

And, and I might add, the book is not just for ministers, but it's for ministers and, and people in the church.

It's really for both.

Because I believe that God's called all of us to ministry.

Whether you're, whether you're a credentialed minister, whether you're a missionary, whether you're a Sunday school teacher.

I'm not sure.

God's called all of us to ministry, and so I think he wants all of us to live ethically, administer ethically.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, I just wanted to mention that.

And.

But if, if you find yourself in a place where you're leading ministry, have good systems in place that will protect, protect minors in your church, that will protect the finances in the church, that will handle complaints in a.

In a proper way, having, having those kinds of systems in the church, I believe that we're responsible not just for not violating people personally, but also for protecting people in the ministries that we're in.

And so I think people will find that helpful.

It's good word, good work.

I think the book is coming out in January or February.

Yeah.

And it's called Trusted with Treasure Handbook on, On ethics and ministry.

Yeah.

Brad, it's been honored to spend some time with you today.

Will you pray for us that God will use this conversation to reignite or, you know, bring to mind once again the, the privilege and honor we have to serve as ministers of the Gospel, to be followers of Christ and the importance of living ethically and morally.

And.

As we follow Christ and as we share and demonstrate what it means to follow Him, I'm reminded of this quote.

We learn more from emulation, demonstration and observation than we do from information.

And so I think as followers of Christ, what we demonstrate, what we emulate, what we observe is so important.

So will you pray for us today?

Yeah.

Very good.

Before I do that, Aaron, can I just share one scripture?

You sure can.

I give.

It kind of gives the idea behind the title of the book.

Yeah, so I should probably put that in there.

It's in second Timothy 1, 13, 14.

It's from Paul to Timothy.

What you have heard from me.

Keep as the pattern of sound teaching with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you.

Guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

So, as ministers, we've been given the treasure of the Gospel, and.

And you know, we've been trusted with that treasure, and that's the idea of the book.

And so let me pray for us that we can.

We can be trusted with that treasure.

Amen.

Hallelujah.

Father, so thankful for.

For everyone who's listening to this, for all the.

The ministers, pastors, missionaries, church workers.

Lord, I pray that as you've trusted all of us with treasure, that you'd help us by the Holy Spirit to be able to live lives that are in accordance with your word, Lord, that we would glorify you with our thoughts, with our actions, with our deeds, Lord, that we live in such a way that would bring glory and honor to your name and would advance the cause of Christ in our world.

I pray for your anointing to be upon every person.

I just pray you'd continue to enlighten us as we read your word, that we.

It could be like a lighthouse for us, Lord, I pray for everyone listening, Lord, that be able to fill the.

Fill their tanks, their emotional, physical, spiritual, emotional tank, and that we'd walk in such an accordance with your word and by your spirit that we live lives that would glorify you.

We give you all the glory.

In your name we pray.

Amen.

Amen.

Sam.