Episode 20: Back in the 502

In this powerful episode of the Judgmental Podcast, Christine returns to Kentucky after an eye-opening trip to California, where she met with parents and advocates fighting for reform in the family court system. Joined by Hugh, the conversation dives deep into the emotional and systemic challenges faced by families navigating the courts, the lack of transparency, and the high financial and personal costs involved.

Key topics include:

• Christine’s firsthand experiences with parents affected by family court decisions in California
• The emotional toll of hearing stories of loss, trauma, and resilience
• A candid discussion about the role and responsibilities of attorneys in supporting clients
• The stark differences between Kentucky and California court systems, especially regarding transparency and access
• The impact of secrecy in family courts and the barriers to media coverage
• Reflections on due process, the need for reform, and the importance of speaking out despite criticism and personal attacks
• The broader implications for justice, transparency, and advocacy in the legal system

Whether you’re a legal professional, someone affected by family court, or interested in justice reform, this episode offers raw insights, personal stories, and a call to action for greater accountability and compassion in the legal process.

Listen now to hear Christine and Hugh unpack the realities of family court and why the fight for transparency and due process matters more than ever.

You are listening to The Judgemental Podcast.

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Speaker 9: We're Hugh and Christine, the

Minds Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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Speaker 8: It's pastime for

judicial accountability and

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transparency within the courts.

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Speaker 9: Prepare for sharp

insights, candid critiques, and

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unshakable honesty from two lawyers

determined to save the system.

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Speaker 10: We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: All right.

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Welcome to the Judgmental Podcast.

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I am officially back in the

5 0 2 and happy to be here.

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Hugh: You know, it's funny, the,

your setting behind you is not very

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different than what it was in California.

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Christine: Oh, no.

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Hugh: The setup with like sort

of the cabinetry behind you.

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Christine: Yeah, I mean, I

had, it was a, an experience.

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I met so many parents and

obviously they were so gracious.

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I stayed in this like amazing home.

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We recorded for hours and

hours and being under studio

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lights like all day, like I am.

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Exhausted emotionally,

physically, all the things.

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But yes, they were so kind to like

open their home and it was just

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though like a trauma dump of emotions.

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Hugh: So how, how long was the trip back?

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Christine: I think like 18 hours.

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I like an idiot.

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I took a red eye outta LAX

and I had a layover in.

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Orlando, and so I am jet lagged beyond.

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But I wanted to jump on and just

start recording quickly because

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I wanna talk while the emotions

are still raw about what I saw and

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kind of how this trip changed me.

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Hugh: Okay.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So maybe start with the primary

purpose of heading out there and

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how the, how the trip originated.

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Christine: So I think we were, I was

invited out there to do some recording

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for what hopefully will be a documentary

talking about family court issues.

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You know, I was found by someone who

says, I'm the first attorney they've

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ever seen to speak about the problems

in family court and it's hysterical.

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One night we stayed up late like drinking

wine, doing an interview that was very

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much like reacting to what we saw and

she was like, I'm not gonna lie, I

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swear when I first saw you, I was like,

guaranteed this woman's been disbarred.

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And I'm like, never had a complaint.

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Because they're so used

to the retaliation.

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I mean, obviously all the

people that I spoke to had lost

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their children in family court.

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And so to say that they have a different

perspective on life and how the systems

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work would be an understatement, right?

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Sure.

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Hugh: Absolutely.

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So they, they would've expected that

you would've been disbarred because

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you speak out against the system.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Hugh: Or that you're, you're, you're angry

that you got disbarred, so that's why

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you're speaking out against the system.

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That's the only reason that, that

someone would actually speak out.

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Christine: Yep.

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And I think that goes to show, like

you and I have had conversations about

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this, but this really changed how I'm

going to report and look on cases.

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Obviously I've been in this

space about two years off and on.

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I took time off, but you know, we don't

talk a lot about it on this platform,

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but I've gotten a significant amount

of hate and rumors and anonymous Reddit

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post and yada yada yada Idiocracy to the

10th degree because I literally just.

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Talk about the truth and the problems,

but I still think I've been doing it

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from a perspective of I was an attorney.

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You know, I have sympathy for attorneys

going in front of some of these judges

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and the way these judges behave.

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But it was unreal to watch

it happen to all these people

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without knowing the players.

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You know what I mean?

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Hugh: Yeah.

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And I mean, it sounded to me

like a lot of these people had

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not gotten a lot of, a lot of.

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One-on-one time with their attorneys while

they were going through this process.

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Christine: Oh yeah.

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And the bigger thing, all of like, so

when we went down to court, and so,

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you know, as an attorney I've probably

been, I don't know so many courthouses.

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Right.

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You have two.

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And you didn't go to law

school in Louisville?

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I didn't go to law school in Louisville.

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So the courthouses, you know,

I'm sure you've been to the

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ones where you went to school.

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I have too.

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I am not intimidated by courthouses.

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It would be like a doctor going

to a hospital, even if it's

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not the hospital they work at.

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It's just not an intimidating setting

where the litigants, it's terrifying.

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Right.

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It was bizarre to see literally

same play, different actors.

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Like I swear I saw the attorneys that

are all like working for the state

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and making, I don't know how they

survive in Orange County making minimal

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money, but they have this power.

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Over wealthy people.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then you saw like three or four

high asset, you know, attorneys, and

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then you saw some of these judges,

this magistrate I was in front of.

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I mean, I swear to goodness, it was

like watching Jessica Stone in court.

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I mean, when she walked out I

was like, that's Jessica Stone.

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But it was just bizarre to see the

players and to know that like it's

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the same courthouse, the same system,

the same people that are GS FOCs.

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Their version is minor's counsel, the

custodial evaluators, the parenting

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supervisors, which they have a huge market

for supervised parenting in Orange County,

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and people are, they're the supervised

parenting people are billing 500 an hour.

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Hugh: 500 an hour to supervise

people's parenting time.

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Yes.

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Does this, does this do you, were you

able to tell, does this, is there like

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a physical location where everyone

does this or they're coming out and

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this is private, they're supervising in

people's homes and charging that rate?

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Christine: I think it's both.

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But during, I went and watched one of the

protests, the family court protest and

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there was a man and a parenting supervisor

that were like screaming at one another.

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And this was like an aha moment.

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I'm not ready quite yet to say the GAL

that this woman repre reminded me of.

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I mean, if I tell you the facts,

you'll know immediately who it was.

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Sure.

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But they were getting into it.

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And this parenting supervisor

was, he threatened me.

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He threatened me, he's threatened me.

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Get away from me, sir.

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And it's like I have been threatened.

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And this was in court.

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No, this was outside court

and she'd come to watch.

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And again, I am not making any assumption

as to whether or not this dad that

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I met for three minutes is, I'm not

making any assumptions about him.

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Right.

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But what I will make an assumption about

is I've been threatened and if someone

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actually scares me, I don't put my hand

in their face and scream at them, period.

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You know, that's, that's

not logical to me.

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And then she was doing what I consider,

I felt like the whole day was just

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like this big gaslighting thing.

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Like the way people in court spoke to me,

this woman was like, he's threatened me.

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He's threatened me,

look at these messages.

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And then she told me, like secretly,

she was like, you know, he's got guns.

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And I'm like.

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Honey Bunny, I'm from Kentucky.

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Like somebody having guns doesn't

mean that's not an automatic thing.

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When I go to buy

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Hugh: coffee, my barista's

probably packing.

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Christine: Right?

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And it, you're just, it was

like she was sitting there.

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Vilifying the guy trying to

convince me of her story.

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And it was just bizarre because she's

got court immunity because she's

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appointed and this guy right or wrong

has lost his children, and there was no

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empathy or understanding that it wasn't.

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All about her.

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You know what I mean?

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And so I know you know which

G-A-L-F-O-C I'm talking about, but we

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have one in Kentucky that everything

ever that happens is all about her.

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You know what I mean?

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And she is, she has no children.

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I have no children.

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And she.

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Themes that she's qualified to,

you know, understand all of these

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super complex therapeutic issues,

which personally, I think is insane.

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And let me just say one thing,

like, and I know I'm on a tangent,

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but my name's Christine Miller.

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I'm an attorney.

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I am not qualified to decide that

understand the therapeutic issues

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of parenting and qualified to say

people should or shouldn't have

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their children removed from them.

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I didn't learn that in law school.

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Okay.

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I have no training to do that whatsoever.

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So when I say this about Gs or FOCs or

custodial evaluators, it's not that I'm

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saying I'm qualified and they aren't.

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It's that we all aren't

qualified for this.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You know what I mean?

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Hugh: And I, I think we might be less

qualified because of the unhealthy

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dynamics that we see as part of our

practice and family law practice.

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We don't see a lot of healthy dynamics.

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The, I would imagine that.

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I, there are a lot of situations

that I would see that I would

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think, oh, that doesn't look so bad.

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I've seen far worse than that, but that

most normal people would be looking

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at thinking, oh my god, red flags.

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Right.

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Christine: No, you couldn't

have said it better.

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And also, I.

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You know, I don't know how to say this

other than to say it, but all I'm sitting

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here, all these people are telling

me all of their traumas, you know?

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My son was threatening to unlive himself.

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I haven't seen my 10-year-old.

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I was breastfeeding my.

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Baby.

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And she was like, I call him chunk,

and he was a little chunk, like she

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showed me pictures and it was just

like that, that I lost my kids.

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And our brains as lawyers are trained

to sort of not hear that, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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Like, it's like, okay,

where's the legal issue?

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Yep.

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Like I'm not, I can't say it enough.

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I'm not a therapist.

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I don't know where to store these traumas.

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You know, I've got my

own fucking problems.

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Like, not to discount them, but

I don't know how to cope and deal

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with things that happen in my own

personal life from a therapeutic

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standpoint, let alone someone else.

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Like I have no training.

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Yeah.

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Other than being a human being.

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Hugh: Well, and, and I remember

that talking with clients.

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You talk to clients and they start

telling you the, the emotional

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side of things, and you're next,

the next thing out of your mouth.

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Isn't like a normal human, it's,

well, was there a hearing on

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ect, on KRS, blah blah, blah.

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And you just ask a procedural question to

make sure that, you know, you're looking,

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you're hunting to see if something was

done correctly, whereas the, the human

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thing to be, you know, that they're

expecting is, oh, that's so awful.

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And just to talk about the, the

trauma they've been through.

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So,

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Christine: yep.

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Hugh: Yeah, I, I would imagine that

that makes, I, I would think that

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would make me less qualified to.

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To talk about normal family re

you know, normal family dynamics

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and, and whether or not a specific

circumstance is healthy for a child.

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Christine: Right.

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And we as lawyers, you know, I be,

we all became lawyers for different

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reasons, you know, obviously.

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My route, you know, was I

loved being a public defender.

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If I could do anything and make a living,

I would go back to being a juvenile

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public defender all day, every day.

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But I wanted to be a lawyer because

I wanted to, you know, you grow up

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in the era of watching all the movies

and you wanna like, help people

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or expose problems or like quote

unquote, you know what I'm saying?

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And then you have these group of people

that are like, they adamantly believe

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all of the lawyers are in on it.

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And I wanna give them credit in instead

of being like, oh, that's crazy.

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Like in hearing their stories and the fact

that they're sitting there talking to a

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Kentucky attorney and I'm the first person

that's told them, yeah, this is nuts.

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Like we as lawyers have to do better

and we have to realize that our job

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is not just to bill a hundred thousand

dollars on a case and keep it moving.

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It's to, you know, lawyers are supposed

to be, to some degree truth tellers.

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Right.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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No, absolutely.

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And, and I think that's

an interesting transition.

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'cause I was, I was about to ask

you, you attended while you were out

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there, a, a protest, a family court

protest, and were a bit surprised at

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the reaction to you as an attorney

coming to a family court protest.

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Christine: Yes.

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I mean, and I don't.

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There are so many people that have been

in the fight for so much longer, and

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it's actually personally affected them.

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But it was one woman was like,

we don't know who to trust.

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Like we don't know.

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Who's gonna use, you know, exploit

our traumas for their own gain.

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Why, why do you care about Kentucky?

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Like, or like why do you

care about California?

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And to go back to that, the reason

I care so much about California is

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this whole cameras in courtrooms,

which, if this is the first episode

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you're listening to, please go back

and listen to Hugh solo episode about

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just kind of the background and the

importance of cameras in courtrooms.

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But there is a different level of

gaslighting in California because.

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The two themes, these people, there's

no cameras in courtrooms and these

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people have to fight tooth and

nail and spend thousands of dollars

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just to get what limited existence

of a record exists in their case.

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Hugh: Yeah, and it sounds like a

lot of them had never, like a lot

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of very serious things had happened.

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They, their decisions had been

made regarding custody, parenting

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time long-term decisions, and they

had never actually been through

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a hearing and gotten to testify

or tell their side of the story.

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Christine: Oh yeah,

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Hugh: that's, yeah, that,

that part is shocking.

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And, and you know, I, I, I said in the

last podcast that I am realizing some

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of the, the benefits to the way that

our court systems work here in Kentucky.

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I mean, we really do

some things right here.

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The, we, we, we get transparency

right, in a lot of ways and.

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We give people hearings.

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I mean, a lot of time, we talk

a lot on here about decisions

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being made without hearings.

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It, it happens all the time

and it's still a big problem.

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Due process is still denied to people,

but it, it's, it's still more the norm.

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The the the exception than the norm.

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It's not systematized.

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You have to fight just to, I mean, some

courts it's better than others, but.

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The fact that certain things could

even happen without a trial or without

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a hearing was really shocking to me.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And I do wanna be clear though,

because like I said and this is me

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personally and I, it's frustrating to

have to say this every single time.

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It's idiotic to think that a human

being speaking, utilizing their voice is

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somehow speaking for another human being.

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But you and I both know, or I know

for a fact that there have been

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conversations here in Louisville, Kentucky

about denying us access to courts.

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Yes.

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Figuring out things to make

sure that we can't go to court

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because they are so concerned

that we are making them look bad.

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And that in and of itself shows

what these systems are like.

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They.

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They need to quit worrying about me

and they need to quit worrying about

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you and they need to do their job.

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Period.

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End of story.

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You know what I mean?

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I mean,

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Hugh: and we'd talk about it too.

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We, I mean there, there have been

some changes and some things that that

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happened I'd like to think of in part

because of what we've been doing on

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the podcast, and certainly there's

been meetings about it and about us

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specifically, and it seems like an

opportunity just to correct some problems.

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And Yeah, instead of making things worse,

and I, and I fear that I mean there

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are a lot of broader things going on

in our country that I fear will, will

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lead to more protection from the public

protection of the courts, from the public.

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And, and I think that, that, that just

leads to more of these systems that

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are toxic and, and that don't serve

children and don't serve families.

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Like you've encountered.

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Christine: Yep.

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Hugh: I think one of my takeaways

from what you've conveyed to me from

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your experience is that oftentimes

when we're talking about more of

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a national concern about courts.

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People are always talking about the

court system being this money making

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machine and it just drags things out

and people are making a lot of money

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on it and all, and I can see that

to a certain extent where we are.

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But the people, you know, the, the,

the fees that p the, that court

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appointed attorneys are paid are

not very high here in Kentucky.

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You GA's FOCs, custodial evaluators

can be paid a health a healthy fee

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if it drags out for a long time.

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But in some of these other places,

it's a whole different world, $500

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an hour to supervise visitation.

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I mean, we have people that come

to homes and supervise visitation

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in Kentucky, and it's, it's

absolutely might be a 10th of that.

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I mean, it's, it's really incredible

the amount of money that almost

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everyone that you spoke with had

spent on the process and none of them.

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Are through with the process.

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It's just this ongoing, no end in sight.

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Yeah.

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Spend hundreds and hundreds

of thousands of dollars.

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Christine: And I think that's the game.

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And I think that's why

they think it's the game.

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And from my perspective, to be

clear again, there are people that

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deserve to lose their children.

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There are people that

deserve to go to prison.

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Hugh: Oh yeah.

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Christine: But that

comes with due process.

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That is literally the radical conspiracy

theory that Christine Miller is a

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spouting, I believe, in this country.

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You shouldn't lose a fundamental

Right without due process.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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Christine: Period.

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And I do think that, ooh,

that's, that's a tough

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Hugh: one.

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I, I mean, I think we gotta

slow down a little bit.

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Christine: Oh, right.

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I mean, what anonymous Reddit post

is gonna come from me saying that.

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Yeah.

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But I do think, and I want you to go

I know we talked about this, but I

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would love for you to go see court in

a different jurisdiction and talk to

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some of these people, because I think

we've really stumbled upon something

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much bigger than, you know, a.

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Person of mediocre, intelligent, doing

TikTok dances and exploiting domestic

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violence victims, like this is a

fundamental problem in our country, and it

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hasn't happened as much to you like yet.

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And don't get me wrong,

it's coming and, you know,

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yeah.

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But just the hate and the rumors and

the slander and all of the mixing

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everything up, but this really

emboldened me to speak much more about.

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What actually is happening

and the patterns.

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Because patterns expose problems, right?

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Hugh: Yeah, absolutely.

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And this is

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Christine: happening everywhere.

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Hugh: Well, you asked me all the time why

I'm not on social media and I've, I've

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been able to avoid a lot of the hate.

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But I also think that, you know,

very unfairly that I will get a

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different side of it and it'll be

far less personal because I'm a

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male and I think that's despicable.

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And I see the words that people use and

the criticisms that come out, and it's

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just, it's absolutely just ridiculous.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And I think we had a mutual friend of

ours text me and be like, you know,

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you put yourself out there so much.

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And so it's just, I'm owning it.

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I'm embracing all of the things

that they say and I think they've

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made a mistake with me and thinking

that that would silence me.

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And I also think they started talking

shit about me a little bit too soon.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like, we had something that

happened right before I went to

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California that you're aware of.

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That was super, I mean, hurtful was

the word, I guess you would say.

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Yeah.

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And just like enough is enough, correct.

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Yeah.

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You know, the fact that I've spoken

out about a judge violating statute

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by Sue Ponte setting a shock

probation hearing is not racist.

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Okay.

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That is just basic.

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But not to get off on a tangent,

I just think that, you know,

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when I was sitting in this home

that I, I can't afford, right.

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And I had all these parents

around me, like I was basically

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just like their like drug dealer.

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They were like, well, what about this

and what, and this is the part that's

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so devastating is like they're reading

the constitution, they're reading

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statue, and they're just looking for

like one answer to expose the problem

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instead of realizing that the system,

like you say, every single time we've

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created a machine and the machine is

going to keep the machine running.

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Yep.

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Hugh: No, that that's true.

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It's also, you know, the experience

that these are represented people.

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You are out there and they're looking to

you for answers when they have attorneys.

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And it goes back to, you know,

your statement that we need

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to do better as attorneys.

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That, that's a big takeaway that I've

had from these people's experiences,

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especially given the reports.

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You know, what they told you, they,

they had spent on attorneys and the

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things that they didn't know and that.

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They were asking you about just very

basic, basic trial practice things,

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preparing for testimony and things

that no one had ever prepped them on.

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Christine: Oh, yeah, that was one night.

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I just did the whole, you know,

like, state your name for the

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record, how old your child.

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Yeah.

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And afterwards the woman was

like, I've never done that before.

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It was so scary.

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And you're just, you know, I did,

I cried a little bit thinking about

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it after, because I can't understand

the emotion of losing your child.

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I can't understand.

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You know, all of the

things that go in with.

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Getting divorced and you know,

not having access to your children

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even like you used to every day.

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But what I can understand is

what a lawyer's supposed to do.

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Yeah.

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And how a lawyer is supposed to

manage client expectations and educate

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clients on the law and legal arguments.

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And it didn't appear from any

of the people that I spoke

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to that that was happening.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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So is it fair to say, I mean, the, the

perspective just has changed a little

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bit because you and I as attorneys,

most of what we learn about cases and

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about the things that have gone poorly

in court have come from case cases that

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have been published or stories from

other attorneys or things that we've

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watched with attorneys arguing it.

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And you've now seen sort of a

different side because you're,

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you're seeing it from the litigants.

440

Outside of the attorneys.

441

And, and I know that on this podcast

we're, we're focusing on the courts and

442

not necessarily attorneys, but mm-hmm.

443

I think it's important for people to hear

that, you know, we're, we're considering

444

all of that and we're not, our position

is not that attorneys are all great

445

and they're doing their jobs and the

courts are, are, are in bad shape.

446

There are a lot of issues with, with

the, the attorneys that are practicing

447

in the courts and I think we've

recognized a lot of it is people that,

448

you know, I, I see people that get

lazy in their practice and sell their

449

clients out sort of as part of the

system because they can't rock the boat.

450

Mm-hmm.

451

They are in the same courts over and

over and over again and they would

452

rather not push too hard for this

one client 'cause it could hurt their

453

other clients and those compromises.

454

That, that's not what

attorneys are supposed to do.

455

And if you get pushback from a

court, you, you can't, you can't

456

say, well, you know, I have to come

back in here on this other case.

457

I'm just going to sacrifice

this, this client and, and

458

let them take the fall for it.

459

'cause the client's, the, the

judge is already already mad.

460

And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna stand up

for my client here because I want to have

461

a better day next week when I'm in here.

462

In something else.

463

That's not what we're supposed to do.

464

Christine: No, and if you even think,

like I talked about the movies from

465

the nineties, you know, like think

about Aaron Brockovich and in all of

466

these movements, if you wanna think

about major corporations committing

467

environmental and fractions that harmed

families, or, which is by the way,

468

Hugh: why I got into the law.

469

Christine: I know.

470

Yeah.

471

I was thinking about that being out in

California because that's where, you

472

know, all of that litigation mm-hmm.

473

With pg and e was, and those people that

claimed pg and e was poisoning them.

474

They were labeled as Crazy nut job,

radical conspiracy theorist, whatever.

475

You know, the attorneys that

initially represented them were

476

labeled as Whack jobs out there.

477

No way.

478

Right?

479

Like, hi, we History has a way of writing

in these quote unquote, like people

480

like Aaron Brockovich as somehow not

getting significant pushback at the time.

481

Or you think about.

482

I had a meeting last week talking

about you know, some of the things

483

that have been going on here

484

It was not popular to talk about

racism or police brutality.

485

Okay.

486

People weren't doing blog,

lawyers weren't doing blog posts

487

saying, hi, my name is so and so.

488

Mm-hmm.

489

And I'm adamantly anti-racist.

490

They're doing it now because.

491

Hopefully they are that way.

492

Right?

493

That's an ideal way to be, but they're

doing it because that is what is

494

popular and what society now claps for.

495

Hugh: Well, but I think we, I think we

may have turned away from that a little

496

bit more than I would like, but Yeah.

497

Agreed.

498

Christine: I mean, I, I, you know,

this is like where the talking

499

points get weird because like, I

want nothing to do racism, sexism.

500

Any of that kind of

stuff, like whatsoever.

501

But I do think we have to look

at the fact that there are people

502

that exploit issues of, and so

when it's convenient of to Yeah.

503

When it's convenient to have

a Black Lives Matter sign.

504

It's politics.

505

It's politics.

506

They have it.

507

Hugh: Yeah.

508

Right.

509

But I mean, the same way it's,

it's convenient to have an easy,

510

repeatable criticism of you that

can completely distract from

511

what you're actually criticizing.

512

Right.

513

And you've seen it and it

continues, and I'm going to see it.

514

So,

515

Christine: yeah.

516

Oh, absolutely.

517

And so I think that those things just

weren't popular, and I swear, I'm telling

518

you I, I believe this with every ounce of

my being, the movement about the problems

519

in family court will be bigger than BLM.

520

Hugh: Wow.

521

Okay.

522

That's a prediction.

523

That's a prediction.

524

Now, I've, I've learned not to bet

against you, but I'm interested to

525

see how that how that turns out.

526

Christine: And I hope that it's

just to expose the problem.

527

And I do think like the lawyers in

particular, like if you were to go to

528

criminal court and cover a bond for,

let's say like possession of matters,

529

portraying children in essay type things,

and you were to have a camera and you

530

were to record this bond hearing you.

531

No one's going to say anything

negative about the public defender

532

or the defense attorney that's

appointed to represent this person.

533

No one's gonna say anything bad about the

reporter that comes in and records this.

534

No one's gonna say anything about, you

know, the judge that sets a bond because

535

we have, to some degree, normalized

cameras and courts and transparency in

536

courts when it comes to certain arenas.

537

Yeah, absolutely.

538

For, for whatever, yeah,

for whatever arena.

539

But only because we've had

540

Hugh: to, only because the, the

Supreme Court told us we had to.

541

Christine: Yeah, but for whatever reason,

like people just have this reaction that

542

family court should be done in secret.

543

Mm-hmm.

544

And just a little bit like I called

you for y'all, I went to the courthouse

545

and there are signs on every door, two

signs on every single door that say

546

basically if you take a picture, if

you take any sort of recording it's

547

a violation of California statute.

548

And I mean, it is.

549

Taken very, very seriously.

550

Well, we watched that viral

551

Hugh: video of a woman who took a

snapshot of just a one picture of

552

her son in custody to be able to just

prove to family that he was healthy

553

and she got locked up on the spot.

554

Christine: Oh, well, I mean,

that's in the courtroom, Hugh.

555

Yeah, I'm talking about in the lobby.

556

Hugh: Oh, in the courthouse.

557

Oh, no.

558

Christine: Yeah, you're talking

about, you're talking about anywhere.

559

No, I really think if you would've

taken a picture in the lobby or

560

even taken a picture of the sign,

I think they would've arrested me.

561

Oh my gosh.

562

I think it would've

been a serious problem.

563

Like I went, 'cause I, on these signs,

there are two things I wanna talk about

564

and then we can wrap up for the day.

565

But like on these signs it says

you can get a media request.

566

So I was like, okay, we're media.

567

I'll go down and get the form.

568

And so I go down and wait for like

20 minutes, 30 minutes, however long.

569

And I was like, Hey, I need

to get a media request form.

570

And they were like, what?

571

What?

572

Like they looked at me like I had

just said something in Arabic.

573

Hugh: They thought, oh, what

celebrity is getting divorced?

574

The, the people are interested

and, and someone's, someone's

575

asking for immediate request for,

576

Christine: well, they, they acted

like it was foreign and they

577

were like, can you go outside?

578

But no one had ever done it.

579

Go

580

Hugh: outside.

581

Christine: Yeah.

582

Can you go outside?

583

And I was like, of course I can go

like, not outside the courthouse,

584

but outside basically their clerk.

585

And I was like, sure.

586

So I go back outside and they wrote on

a post-it note, a phone number for me

587

to call, and I was like, no, no, no.

588

I'm gonna get the form.

589

So I go back in, I'm like, you

said, for me to wait outside.

590

And they're like, we

don't know what to do.

591

And they bring me out basically like

our version of like a A OC form.

592

And it, that's when I called you.

593

'cause I was like, this is not normal.

594

Like you would've thought I'd

asked for something radical.

595

But media is not reporting on these cases,

and it's my understanding, 90% of media

596

requests or more are denied by the courts.

597

Hugh: Wow.

598

Yeah.

599

I mean that's so I was

600

Christine: telling Oh, sorry.

601

Hugh: No, no, no.

602

I just, yeah, that's shocking to me.

603

Christine: Well, I was telling all

the parents, like for us as lawyers

604

and stepping into journalism or just

storytelling, you know, because there's

605

some component where we're podcasters,

we're telling stories, but I literally

606

cannot verify what it is that they're

saying because where's the record of it?

607

Yeah.

608

And then last, this was the

thing that really hit me.

609

This was like, I am in a

developing country, no doubt.

610

Is there was a signage up that said

that parents, friends, family members,

611

due to limited seating, can't come in.

612

And I sent you a video of the courthouse.

613

I mean, the courthouse is huge.

614

Hugh: Yep.

615

Christine: Yeah.

616

And so in what world, like, you know, you,

you talk about like the downfall of de

617

demo, like democratic countries democracy,

and one of the first things that you hear

618

over, you know, historically speaking

is limited access to a judicial system

619

that is fair, efficient, and transparent.

620

Mm-hmm.

621

Hugh: Yep.

622

Yep.

623

The courts, once it becomes secret

and they can do whatever they want,

624

and there's no record of it, and you

c you don't have any real recourse.

625

Christine: Yep.

626

Hugh: Boy, it, yeah.

627

Hard to walk that back.

628

Christine: And we are in, we

are in real, real trouble.

629

Seriously.

630

Hugh: Well, my hope is that

people here listening will not.

631

Take those same steps.

632

I think it's extremely important that

more courts become, like we have here

633

in Kentucky, where they are open and

people can view and access and see

634

what's actually going on in the courts.

635

I mean, it's, yeah, it's

big worry of mine, but.

636

As of right now, we have, we have a

pretty open system here and I, I was very

637

fortunate enough to practice in a system

that, I mean, I took great advantage

638

of it as a litigant, but I always felt

that even when things were going very

639

poorly, there's always recourse and

I could show exactly what happened.

640

I didn't have to come in and,

you know, my word against someone

641

else about what happened in there

because there's no recording of it.

642

That's, that's crazy.

643

In fact, here, if something

happens in the recording.

644

You know, isn't made.

645

Sometimes you have to have the proceeding

all over again because it has to be,

646

there has to be a clear record of it.

647

Christine: Well, that's two things.

648

One, one of the recordings

that I requested of the case

649

that you and I watched mm-hmm.

650

Where the friend of the court tried

to get the attorney to speak on

651

her behalf, that motion hour, that

recording, they can't find it.

652

Okay.

653

That was a couple weeks ago.

654

Mm-hmm.

655

Mm-hmm.

656

We, so that's here in

Louisville, Kentucky.

657

And two, what I realized in, you know,

you and I, getting tapes and going

658

into the tape room is probably very

different than how a pro se person

659

is treated going in to that arena.

660

And I'd to follow it depends, depends.

661

Somebody,

662

Hugh: it depends on, depends

on what we're asking for.

663

I mean, I have had times where.

664

I mean, what do you, what do you

say the normal period of time is?

665

Within two weeks, usually there's a

video available, but usually I found

666

that it was four, four or five days.

667

Christine: Oh, that,

668

Hugh: oh, like if I needed a, if

I needed to get a video, because

669

I might have to do a CR 59.05

670

motion or something like that, which

is a motion to alter vendor vacate in

671

the federal courts and in Kentucky.

672

It usually has to be done

10 days after a ruling.

673

So I would want to have the video

so that I could have the record

674

once the ruling came out, and I

could get them fairly quickly.

675

But then there were times where if I

had filed a writ and I had challenged

676

a judge on something and something

had happened or there had been threats

677

made toward me by the, by the court

in, in that hearing, and I would go

678

immediately down and put the request in.

679

It might be six months before

that that video ever made it down.

680

So I know that that stuff happens.

681

I know that, oh yeah.

682

Those things are withheld.

683

I just think as a system, you

know, that's, that's people

684

trying to go around the system.

685

Our system here still, it's

supposed to have the video being

686

available to everybody but you.

687

But I mean,

688

Christine: is it, you know,

it's a slippery slope.

689

Like these things happen

slowly, but I don't think I.

690

My word.

691

If it's controversial to say it, then

I'll just say it, but there's no question

692

that Christine Ward and Brian Gatewood

take forever for tapes to come down.

693

I mean, I don't think

that's radical, is it to say

694

Hugh: No.

695

I've had, I've had Gatewood take

many months and it was something

696

that we requested a video.

697

In another case that was before him,

that wasn't really that important

698

to see if it was really something

going on with the system or not.

699

And of course we got that tape and

it was it just, it seemed to be a

700

cer certain cases are, are held.

701

So yeah, I've, I've experienced that.

702

Christine: Are certain practitioners, and

I had all these parents reading Adair vs.

703

Emberton too, by the way.

704

And they wanna figure out what

the California a dare law is.

705

And that's the kind of stuff that will

make you cry, like literally will make you

706

cry like they are so desperate for help.

707

Hugh: They're sitting there, but how would

an not be able to talk to them about it?

708

Like I'm, I was always such

a geek about this stuff.

709

I probably talked to my clients too

much about it, but they'd be talking

710

about it and I would say, well,

this is why it works this way and

711

this is where we can take advantage

of it 'cause they're not doing.

712

And I would explain all of that, and

then I would, I would often email

713

statutes and say, this is the one I

was talking about in our conversation.

714

You may wanna read through and

see how this mechanism works.

715

I, I wanted people to get that.

716

I didn't want them to think that

I was just telling them what I.

717

I believed in, you know, the, the, I

wanted them to understand why I was

718

giving them advice, because frankly, it

made my life easier if they followed it.

719

Christine: Well, also, I didn't become

a lawyer to just like, I mean, certainly

720

if I did become a lawyer just to make a

bunch of money, I have utterly failed.

721

But I literally love the law and

love having those conversations.

722

Yeah, me too.

723

And I.

724

You know, I, I just got a text message.

725

I want you to stay on.

726

We're gonna wrap this up real quick.

727

We're both having a beer.

728

I'm having a rolling rock.

729

It, jet lag is real, but we're gonna

put this on a cliffhanger because I

730

just got a text message that's going

to cause Hugh Barrow to throw something

731

and he was not a violent person.

732

Oh.

733

But you are not gonna believe

I'm being, I'm kidding.

734

And if you No, no, I gotcha.

735

Hugh: Well, I will see,

see, your Rolling Rock.

736

Or I can

737

Speaker 4: raise

738

Hugh: you a, a Country Boy Brewing Co.

739

Nacho Bait

740

Christine: Oh, you're so good.

741

Y'all judgey judge y.com.

742

We promise to keep this going and

if anything, you know, I think that

743

we are both emboldened to talk about

this stuff more from a non-partisan.

744

The law matters.

745

Work ethic matters.

746

Right.

747

Hugh: Yep.

748

Absolutely.

749

And I think that, that, that's gonna

be more important for us to say,

750

given how every single issue seems to

be looked at through a lens, right?

751

A certain lens, one side

or the other right now.

752

And that's, that's not our aim whatsoever.

753

Yep.

754

This is just black and white.

755

Wow.

756

Thanks guys.

757

Peace./

758

Speaker 2: Next call.

759

We need some

760

Speaker 3: justice, justice, justice.

761

And I wanna ring bells in public.

762

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

763

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

764

I To the fo Yeah.

765

Speaker 7: I to the fo fo

766

teaser.