Transcripts
Welcome to Unboxing Logistics.
Speaker:I am excited for today's episode.
Speaker:This is a really unique and special topic that is near and dear to my heart,
Speaker:and just really, really interesting.
Speaker:So buckle up.
Speaker:We're gonna have a really, really fun day.
Speaker:I've invited a couple of my friends and compadres here in the
Speaker:logistics industry from the Summit Advisory team, Dylan and Jarlath.
Speaker:They are experts on this topic.
Speaker:You have been wanting to hear what it is, I'm sure.
Speaker:We are gonna be talking about neurodivergence in logistics.
Speaker:Super, super interesting, this topic.
Speaker:A, a recent study found that 58% of people in the logistics and supply chain
Speaker:industry identify as neurodivergent.
Speaker:And this is more than double what you'd see kind of in other industries.
Speaker:And so, what an opportunity for us to learn what it means.
Speaker:Both of these great gentlemen are neurodivergent, and so they're gonna talk
Speaker:a little bit about their experiences and advice and how do we take best advantage
Speaker:of the superpower of neurodivergence?
Speaker:How do we help manage and make things sure that everything is just,
Speaker:you know, as smooth as possible.
Speaker:So this is gonna be a really fun, interesting topic.
Speaker:If you are neurodivergent, I would love to hear from you.
Speaker:You can pop in the comments, tell us about your experiences.
Speaker:But Dylan, Jarlath, can you just first quickly, we'll start with
Speaker:Jarlath, then we'll go to Dylan, introduce yourself, give us a little
Speaker:bit of the background on who you are.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:So I'm Jarlath.
Speaker:I was born in Ireland.
Speaker:Grew up in mostly in Luxembourg.
Speaker:Lived most of my adult life in London, England.
Speaker:Been in the US since 2020.
Speaker:January, 2020.
Speaker:Professionally I've been, I'm a little in a little neighboring thing
Speaker:to logistics analytics, you know a lot of data and logistics and I've
Speaker:worked in a few different fields.
Speaker:A few different industries, retail, ecommerce and stuff like that.
Speaker:We use a lot of logistics data.
Speaker:I'm ADHD.
Speaker:I was diagnosed in 2020.
Speaker:Four, 18 months ago, inattentive type in a, what did they call it?
Speaker:Joyous joy.
Speaker:No, what's the word?
Speaker:Joyous diagnosis.
Speaker:I can't remember what it is now.
Speaker:There's, there's a term for it.
Speaker:Cause you know, you can do a lot when you, knowledge is power.
Speaker:You can do a lot when you find out.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Dylan, tell us about you.
Speaker:Hey yeah, Dylan Telford I lead a team of outstanding consultants
Speaker:in the omnichannel space.
Speaker:And for myself, I've
Speaker:got a autism diagnosis in my early thirties.
Speaker:And so I think similar to what Jarlath was just saying, it's, there's something
Speaker:about how eyeopening it is when you get a, you know, later diagnosis than others.
Speaker:A lot of things about your early life starts to make sense.
Speaker:And you can start putting pieces together that were either scary
Speaker:before or like highly friction full.
Speaker:You can start to say, oh, I might be able to deal with this differently because
Speaker:now I understand a little bit better on how my brain functions overall.
Speaker:Just like anybody else who goes to therapy for one thing or another, right?
Speaker:It's, it's, once you get that self-discovery, I think there's
Speaker:a lot of doors that could open.
Speaker:And so it's been a really great adventure since then and I really love
Speaker:advocating for everyone else that's going through the same struggles.
Speaker:Yeah, I love that so much.
Speaker:And from my perspective, I am not neurodivergent.
Speaker:However, my husband is.
Speaker:So, like Jarlath, he was, I diagnosed as ADHD as an adult after one of
Speaker:our kids was diagnosed, which is, I think, fairly common these days.
Speaker:You know, diagnoses are easier.
Speaker:And once one of my kids was, it was like, oh wait, this
Speaker:kind of looks like Dad as well.
Speaker:So for, you know, our, our regulars here in the Unboxing Logistics
Speaker:family know that I have seven kids.
Speaker:All of them are, are somewhere in the neurodivergence.
Speaker:We have some autism as well.
Speaker:So a couple of kids who are on the autism spectrum and, and a few who are ADHD.
Speaker:And so it's an adventure and I'm just really excited to talk about this,
Speaker:this really important topic today.
Speaker:Before we do, one of the things that I really love is I love to hear a
Speaker:person that you admire in the industry.
Speaker:I just love getting shout outs to people who are, are so influential and helpful.
Speaker:So, Dylan, let's hear from you first, who is somebody you really admire
Speaker:in the industry, and then Jarlath, you share with us after that?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:As a leader I worked with when I was working at Gap
Speaker:Inc. His name's Kevin Konz.
Speaker:He leads the entire global logistics team overall.
Speaker:And and just someone who A, came from the floor, right?
Speaker:Like, so he worked in warehouses and then ran warehouses and
Speaker:then ran multiple campuses.
Speaker:And he's just grown, grown and grown.
Speaker:And he didn't let that leave him, right?
Speaker:Like everything that he learned about having boots on the ground you
Speaker:know, personally in his early stages, he's kept with him and he's somebody
Speaker:who really understands that the hurdle of change management can
Speaker:often be addressed through culture.
Speaker:And I think that's very relevant to what we're speaking about today.
Speaker:But understanding how to change the culture to make change easier is
Speaker:something that a lot of leaders can do.
Speaker:And then you can you know, make a culture of change really in the end.
Speaker:And you can have people that are ready for new things to come through.
Speaker:And so the friction of putting in a new capability under his
Speaker:leadership at my time at Gap was much lower than in other circumstances
Speaker:that I've experienced in the past.
Speaker:That is fantastic.
Speaker:Shout out to Kevin.
Speaker:And I love that phrase that change management can be made easier
Speaker:or, or done well through culture, and that's super interesting.
Speaker:Jarlath, go ahead.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I put this one a little differently.
Speaker:I went for a role I was thinking about one that
Speaker:I, I never knew existed.
Speaker:I'm in a, in a place where I'm thinking a lot about my food and how things gets
Speaker:to me and like the people who, who, who, who touches it every step of the way.
Speaker:And then I worked at a closing rental service for a while and their
Speaker:distribution centers, just amazing.
Speaker:Everything that happens there to send clothes out and get them back and then
Speaker:clean them is fascinating and there's one section of their center where
Speaker:they repair the clothes and there's this group of people who are like
Speaker:experts in stain removal, repairs.
Speaker:And there's this one woman who she was the eye.
Speaker:It was her job to glance at a piece of clothing and say, yes,
Speaker:someone will wear that again, or no.
Speaker:And everything had to be reviewed.
Speaker:And I just, the, the attention to detail, the skill, the knowledge.
Speaker:She was very stylish herself.
Speaker:I just found it really, really impressive.
Speaker:I just, I love I love people who have, are very experts in their
Speaker:craft, you know they, they, they've trained their intuition just to, to
Speaker:do something you just don't even see.
Speaker:I always really admire that.
Speaker:Isn't it so cool when people find roles like that, that fit their talent so well?
Speaker:I think sometimes we get kind of stuck in roles that don't play up to our ability.
Speaker:So that is really, really cool role.
Speaker:Okay, so I wanna kind of have our conversation in like two ways today.
Speaker:I wanna talk about what it's like being neurodivergent and maybe,
Speaker:you know, how, how to manage that.
Speaker:And if so, for our audience who's listening, if you are neurodivergent,
Speaker:kind of some of the lessons that Dylan and Jarlath have learned.
Speaker:And then I wanna talk about supporting your colleagues who are neurodivergent
Speaker:at whether you're in leadership, whether you're coworkers, and how
Speaker:we can kind of take advantage of it.
Speaker:So, before we jump into sort of the just straight up being neurodivergent
Speaker:in logistics, I, I'd love to hear your take on the statistic
Speaker:that I shared on that study.
Speaker:What does that surprise you?
Speaker:Are you not surprised?
Speaker:Why do you think that this is true?
Speaker:Jarlath, let's start with you.
Speaker:Really surprised my first
Speaker:intuition as a data, like data person.
Speaker:I call myself like a, I heard this term maybe 10 years ago, a skeptical optimist.
Speaker:So like, try and have a positive mindset, but always be a little skeptical at first.
Speaker:So my initial is, 58%, that sounds like that sounds too, might be true.
Speaker:And then once I put that aside, I was like, well it probably,
Speaker:it makes a lot of sense, right?
Speaker:There's a lot of pattern recognition.
Speaker:There's a lot of
Speaker:creative thinking required, you know, creating new things, figuring
Speaker:out new ways, and then I was like, well, yeah, it makes total sense
Speaker:that that's where neurodivergent people are drawn to, you know, that.
Speaker:I'm always looking at neurotypical people, like, how are you
Speaker:just chipping away at that?
Speaker:How are you getting it done?
Speaker:It's so, it's so dull.
Speaker:And then you know, and then and I admire it.
Speaker:And then you know what I've, the pattern I've seen is, you know, neurodivergent
Speaker:people, you'll tend to find them working on the hardest problems.
Speaker:The one that a lot of people are like, that's too difficult.
Speaker:It's impossible.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Oh, that's my husband so much.
Speaker:And he gets into the, like, he can't release.
Speaker:He, he wants to like figure something out so badly.
Speaker:Like, if you want something found, you go to him because it, it like
Speaker:will make him a little bit crazy.
Speaker:He can't finish it.
Speaker:So, Dylan, what about you?
Speaker:What, what were your impressions?
Speaker:I, I can't say I'm highly surprised.
Speaker:It's, it's always a shock to hear some of these numbers as they come forward.
Speaker:But I wanna throw a few other numbers towards that and kind of
Speaker:tell a little bit more of a story.
Speaker:I was looking up some recent studies on masking, which we, we
Speaker:may talk a little bit about later.
Speaker:But in short, for anybody that's not aware, masking is, if you think
Speaker:about literally putting a mask on and pretending like you're somebody
Speaker:else, take that in your every day.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It's, it's putting energy into hiding some of the things
Speaker:that may make you who you are.
Speaker:And in neurodiverse people you find that this is a very common thing.
Speaker:And it's very unhealthy and it's very draining on energy.
Speaker:But the, the numbers I saw is two different studies, same year.
Speaker:One said 53% of people who identify as neurodivergent in the workplace mask,
Speaker:they know that they actually mask.
Speaker:The other one said 91%.
Speaker:Right, the gap that's in there, one of the things that, that made me think of
Speaker:was, was A, why is it so, you know, what was the difference in these audiences?
Speaker:And if you're reaching statistical significance,
Speaker:shouldn't we be in a ballpark?
Speaker:And we're, we're very far away when you look at that.
Speaker:First of all, in, in the statistic you threw out, one of the things to identify
Speaker:in there is the word identify as people who it's, it's the number of people who
Speaker:identify as neurodivergent, which, some of them have diagnosis, some of them don't.
Speaker:And that's, that's another topic I'm sure we're gonna get into later on the.
Speaker:People will see their own patterns in, in others, and they'll
Speaker:try to play on top of that.
Speaker:And there's, there's some value within there.
Speaker:The other side is of that number, when, when you think about the gap
Speaker:and the people who said that they were masking, how many people in the first
Speaker:study were masking that they're masking?
Speaker:How many of them carry some level of shame by being asked, do you pretend that
Speaker:you're, you have different behaviors than you actually naturally do, kind of thing.
Speaker:So I was thinking about that.
Speaker:I was also thinking maybe people in that audience didn't really understand
Speaker:masking as much, so how can they say?
Speaker:And of that, how many people who are, this is the scariest one for me.
Speaker:How many people in the study that you looked at did not
Speaker:self-identify as neurodiverse because they were masking that deep?
Speaker:And so when I look at these numbers, what I think of is, what is going
Speaker:on in the culture and in the what level of inclusion are some of these
Speaker:folks working in or not, where they feel the necessity to still
Speaker:be different in front of everybody else?
Speaker:To be different than who they really are.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So let's talk about it then.
Speaker:In the industry, or even just in your careers in general, in your professional
Speaker:lives, how, what kind of barriers have you faced being neurodivergent?
Speaker:What, how do you approach things in a way that is different and, and what
Speaker:do those barriers kind of look like?
Speaker:Jarlath, let's, let's hear from you.
Speaker:I mentioned earlier, we were talking before about how I used to work in
Speaker:mostly in London and being here for the last few years, and it's a very, very
Speaker:different experience working in UK versus the US So you, you're really
Speaker:encouraged to put yourself forward here, put your ideas out there, and that kind
Speaker:of naturally leads you to unmask a bit.
Speaker:And I, I certainly, when I moved here, I found this kind of like, I'm so anxious.
Speaker:Like they really, they wanna know what I actually think.
Speaker:Are they sure?
Speaker:Because they develop like a cultural aspect that plays on top of it.
Speaker:So some of it was simply not knowing what people really want or what people want
Speaker:from you, is that what you're saying?
Speaker:It's hard because, you know, you're always neurodivergent, so you don't really
Speaker:get to experience what it's not like.
Speaker:So it's really difficult to know, you know?
Speaker:And that's, that's what it comes down to.
Speaker:Like know, and I drove myself a little crazy man.
Speaker:Therapist told me I was driving myself a little crazy trying answer.
Speaker:Like, why this?
Speaker:Why that?
Speaker:Like I just, you know, when you first, when I first got diagnosed,
Speaker:it was like, I wonder if it was this, I wonder if it was that.
Speaker:And like some of it's helpful, but you know, there's a point at which you
Speaker:just need to accept that, you just are.
Speaker:You just, you don't know what, what the barriers were, were not.
Speaker:I think I alluded to one early, you know I used to beat myself up all the time
Speaker:'cause I found tedious work so hard.
Speaker:And challenging work so easy.
Speaker:And it's the opposite for most people.
Speaker:And I didn't really like accept that about myself.
Speaker:I would just kind of be like, ah, I'm lazy, or this, that.
Speaker:But then once I understood my ADHD diagnosis, and that's a great
Speaker:book, I, I recommend ADHD 2.0.
Speaker:Boring work is kryptonite.
Speaker:That's basically if you're ADHD, you just, the motivation doesn't just come.
Speaker:And I think, so the big barrier, probably the biggest barrier is self-acceptance.
Speaker:Just kind of accepting who you are.
Speaker:There's things you're, you're well suited to, not suited to, which is
Speaker:something that's helpful for everyone.
Speaker:Dylan, what about you?
Speaker:After I really started going deep into my professional career,
Speaker:so everybody's had jobs, right?
Speaker:And then like you decide what you wanna do and you start really going after
Speaker:something that is of interest and, and getting much deeper into what you wanna
Speaker:do long term and where you want to grow.
Speaker:As soon as I really started taking my career seriously and was really taking
Speaker:on that growth and I, I moved into the corporate office environment, which
Speaker:has never been highly exciting for me.
Speaker:But as soon as I moved down for years, year over year, over year, over year, I
Speaker:would get the same comments in my annual reviews, which was, so we talked to
Speaker:some of your colleagues and some other, you know some of the people that work
Speaker:with you fairly often, and we got very common feedback, which is you're very
Speaker:smart and everybody can go to you for pretty much any answer that they need.
Speaker:But you talk a lot.
Speaker:And what that really plays into, and for years I was just like, how do I talk less?
Speaker:And I was just trying to figure out all these different ways and
Speaker:then I, when I got my diagnosis, we took a different route.
Speaker:But one of the things that I think is a, is a positive that plays for people.
Speaker:So kind of on the, the converse of looking at the challenges is
Speaker:everybody has a special interest.
Speaker:People are neurodivergent tend to have tend to, to hyperfocus
Speaker:on their special interest.
Speaker:So when you find somebody who finds a job that they really wanna
Speaker:do, this is very interesting.
Speaker:They're going to put.
Speaker:Typically a lot of effort into that because they wanna solve the problem.
Speaker:And define for our audience who don't know what it would mean
Speaker:to hyperfocus on something.
Speaker:I think you touched on it a little bit earlier, but it's not
Speaker:being able to let something go.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You start on a problem, you have to finish it, you can't leave it open.
Speaker:Or it's extremely stressful for you to leave it open, right?
Speaker:Some, some of us have figured out that we can say, okay, I'm past the time of work.
Speaker:That makes sense.
Speaker:I need to go live my, my, my life, my personal life at this point.
Speaker:But this isn't done yet, right?
Speaker:And I really need to finish this, and it's gonna be important.
Speaker:It's, it's gonna tie into tomorrow, and then it's gonna tie into the next day.
Speaker:And I'm not gonna get anything else done this week if I don't do this, right?
Speaker:And it's just kind of like builds up really fast on top of yourself.
Speaker:But when you hyper focus, you really get into, and you look at details
Speaker:and, and since it's so interesting to you and you're hyper-focused,
Speaker:and there you may see things other people don't see, which is great,
Speaker:but then you also have to explain it.
Speaker:My husband says that he will think about it.
Speaker:Like, it encompasses everything.
Speaker:So even if he's not working on it, his mind is thinking about
Speaker:it or he's searching up YouTube videos on what it could be.
Speaker:Or it, it's like all encompassing.
Speaker:It's all he thinks about.
Speaker:Until somehow it's completed or finished or whatever it is.
Speaker:And so he will sometimes not eat.
Speaker:I know like when he's working on so something, I'll need to bring him
Speaker:food, 'cause he won't remember to eat.
Speaker:He won't remember to go to the bathroom.
Speaker:So involved in it that it's like everything else is gone, which it is.
Speaker:That's an amazing superpower to get that done, but also difficult, you know?
Speaker:'Cause there is life.
Speaker:Yeah, it is.
Speaker:My, my wife actually does the same thing to me.
Speaker:I, in my personal life, working on music is a special interest of mine and I
Speaker:will be mixing songs on my computer and then all of a sudden it's darker than
Speaker:it was what seems like a second ago.
Speaker:But it's probably been 10 hours.
Speaker:And she comes into the room with a sign because I got headphones on and
Speaker:everything with a sign that says you need to stop and use the bathroom,
Speaker:drink some water and eat something.
Speaker:And it's, it's funny because you, you're just not in that mode.
Speaker:That's not the thought, that's not the priority at the time.
Speaker:The priority is to solve this and move on.
Speaker:And to your point, it just sticks with you when you walk away.
Speaker:So even if you have the ability to walk away without kind of blowing
Speaker:up at that moment, it never leaves.
Speaker:It, it's again, very draining to leave the task unfinished and then,
Speaker:and then try to come back to it.
Speaker:And not everybody who's on the spectrum or, or, or has ADHD or any other type
Speaker:of neurodiverse conditions that we would talk about here has that same problem.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It's, I think you talk about it's everybody's got these very
Speaker:different ways of thinking.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But when it does come up, it can play very well to getting to really
Speaker:good solutions for, for problems that exist out there, but that person
Speaker:themself is being drained until that problem is solved in a lot of cases.
Speaker:And I dunno, it's something that's, energy, energy draining, but you feel
Speaker:very accomplished once you get to that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You get this euphoria kind of.
Speaker:As my husband's just like, oh.
Speaker:So my question for you is how do you balance?
Speaker:So let's say we talk about, and Jarlath, I wanna hear about what you do as well.
Speaker:So you get that feedback.
Speaker:And I think this is why people mask a lot, right?
Speaker:Is that there's this feedback, you're smart, you're amazing, loving coming
Speaker:to you, but you're taking up too much of my time by talking so much.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And so then I think I've seen it in my daughters that they, they really work.
Speaker:I know my daughter would be like, okay, I can only raise
Speaker:my hand in class three times.
Speaker:Like I am like the only one talking.
Speaker:Or, and, and I think those are all those kind of things you're talking about,
Speaker:Dylan, the masking, the trying to fit in with what society deems to be normal or
Speaker:deems to be appropriate for a situation.
Speaker:How do you balance being yourself and also making sure
Speaker:the culture works for everyone?
Speaker:When I got my diagnosis I learned that the more open I was, the easier it was for
Speaker:people around me to be part of a community of people that's all trying to make work,
Speaker:you know, when we take it into the, to the workplace, make work as easy as it
Speaker:can be for everybody and comfortable.
Speaker:Lucky to be around some really great people when I got the, the diagnosis, none
Speaker:of them were surprised when it came up.
Speaker:So there's that as well.
Speaker:But then when I started having the conversation on my compulsion
Speaker:is to give you as much context as possible so that you understand
Speaker:everything that I'm giving to you.
Speaker:But that also might mean that when my wife asks me what a ribbon mic is that I start
Speaker:with, well, first I need to tell you how.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Like, and just like go down the history.
Speaker:Let's start, start in the 1752 and.
Speaker:Literally two, two hours down the road we were driving Chicago.
Speaker:She asked me that question and I stopped.
Speaker:'cause I heard snoring.
Speaker:Just put her to sleep for this entire story.
Speaker:So like.
Speaker:I'm gonna give the context.
Speaker:When you have enough context, my que my ask to people around me is, hey,
Speaker:I'm just gonna keep going, so you need to stop me when you have enough.
Speaker:Or if I'm not answering a question, stop me and say, I understand this piece.
Speaker:What about this piece?
Speaker:And just get me focused on what it needs to be.
Speaker:And I know, 'cause I've had that feedback for so long, I know that I talk a lot so.
Speaker:I'm not, I'm not taking a negative from it at all.
Speaker:It's, it's somebody's just calling me out as to where I am.
Speaker:So you have to learn to be not sensitive about where, you know, those challenges.
Speaker:Can you, I love that idea of being open and sharing.
Speaker:Like, look, I know I do this.
Speaker:Let me know when you have enough or not enough.
Speaker:Because I, I could imagine it would be really hard and feel like, you
Speaker:didn't wanna hear what I had to say or, or something like that.
Speaker:Jarlath, what about you?
Speaker:What have you found that's, that is helpful or, or what,
Speaker:what can you share with people?
Speaker:A few things.
Speaker:I mean, I've tried a few different things.
Speaker:They, as life goes through different phases, something that
Speaker:used to work, don't work so well anymore and I'm trying new things.
Speaker:One I that came up recently was Dylan.
Speaker:Dylan was talking to his wife.
Speaker:Not stopping at night.
Speaker:I, that's become a big problem for me the last, or I don't, I
Speaker:mean, go back to self-acceptance.
Speaker:That's a pattern I've noticed about myself over the last six months or so.
Speaker:It's just something that happens.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And when I first got diagnosed, I was told like, get a bunch of timers.
Speaker:Tried that, didn't work at all.
Speaker:Just made me really stressed, but I was like, you know what?
Speaker:My wife's like, you don't realize how long you're talking.
Speaker:I'm like, I don't, I have no idea.
Speaker:It could have been two minutes, it could have been an hour.
Speaker:I really just lose track.
Speaker:It's everything I'm saying seems like, you know, critical importance and I shouldn't
Speaker:stop until you understand everything.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:After she told me that the last time I just went to my office and got
Speaker:one of the little timers and put it on the dining table and said, just,
Speaker:just turn it to a couple of minutes.
Speaker:Whenever you feel like I've lost, you know, I've lost myself and
Speaker:I'm just, we haven't tried it yet.
Speaker:We've also suggested, like holding, I've suggested for years, like,
Speaker:should we just hold, like a talking stick or a talking ball or something
Speaker:like that, you know, just, just to keep, stay present in the moment.
Speaker:The one that I do for myself that seems to, to work.
Speaker:Quite well, just really excessively intense exercise seems to be very,
Speaker:very effective for me, particularly when I'm in like a quieter phase.
Speaker:So the last two weeks I've got up at 4:30 and I'm going to CrossFit at 5:15.
Speaker:And I've been doing that about 10 years, like that.
Speaker:That seems I started, once I started that, that seemed to help a lot.
Speaker:That in combination with like I practice mindfulness meditation.
Speaker:That helps me kind of stay more self-aware.
Speaker:There are two things like that I hope to continue forever.
Speaker:They seem to just be constants that always keep me centered.
Speaker:I think that coming back to yourself is important.
Speaker:I'm gonna go ahead and share.
Speaker:I've created a list 'cause they're all fantastic specific coping skills
Speaker:that you guys have talked about.
Speaker:Meditation, exercise, timers.
Speaker:Now I have two daughters on the ADHD who have ADHD and they have used
Speaker:timers mainly for that time blindness.
Speaker:Kind of like Dylan simply because they had that exact thing, like my daughter
Speaker:college student and she'll be like, wow.
Speaker:I sat down at 8:00 AM and suddenly it's midnight and I'm
Speaker:still working on this project.
Speaker:I realize haven't done anything.
Speaker:So she found that having something buzz, it had to be a buzz on her
Speaker:arm, kind of helped her track the fact that time was going by, not
Speaker:even necessarily do anything else.
Speaker:Being open about it and just letting people know, hey, I've got this challenge.
Speaker:I'm aware of it.
Speaker:I know that I talk too much.
Speaker:It's interesting as you guys talk about talking too much.
Speaker:'Cause my husband who has ADHD talks so much.
Speaker:But he said he'd feel so frustrated, he'd feel, he said, I feel like
Speaker:I'm not being able to talk enough.
Speaker:And I would say, but if you actually looked at the time, you're
Speaker:talking like twice as much as me.
Speaker:Like say we're having an argument, a discussion, and he realized his problem
Speaker:was, he felt like he was almost measuring it in how many points he could get across.
Speaker:Where I could get a point across really fast and he would have to kind of
Speaker:wander around it a little bit before he'd land the plane for the point.
Speaker:And so maybe he didn't get as many points across.
Speaker:And so there was a lot of extra talking and, and he's worked on that as well.
Speaker:And, but I love Dylan's point to let people know, hey,
Speaker:this is how you can help me.
Speaker:Put your hand up.
Speaker:Say, oh yeah, I got that.
Speaker:Feel free to interrupt.
Speaker:I think that that's healthy.
Speaker:When you've had that conversation, then you're not gonna feel as offended
Speaker:maybe that they interrupted you and say, yeah, just jump in and let me
Speaker:know if you understand what I'm saying.
Speaker:Those are all really good, solid, actionable things that
Speaker:anyone listening today can go out and try some different things.
Speaker:I love as well.
Speaker:Both of you kind of touched on needing to experiment.
Speaker:Different people, different things will work well, different times of life.
Speaker:Jarlath, that was a great point that, you know, what worked maybe
Speaker:in one situation or at one time of life might not work later.
Speaker:Anything else, I guess in terms of advice for people who are neurodivergent
Speaker:to be able to be themselves and not need to mask too much, but also be
Speaker:accommodating to your coworkers.
Speaker:Yeah, I, I'm gonna throw another one out that is, it's still asking
Speaker:for the concession from somebody.
Speaker:But I have a condition where I am unable to interpret compliments.
Speaker:So I don't get, I don't, I don't feel embarrassed or anything like
Speaker:that when they come up, it is like somebody is coming up to you with
Speaker:urgency in a language you've never heard of or can't relate to anything.
Speaker:So you can't even say, okay, I gotta go look up Ukrainian to figure out
Speaker:what this person's saying to me.
Speaker:You have no like angle to go from, right?
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:It is just completely alien.
Speaker:And it's fine in little spurts, right?
Speaker:Hey, you did great on this.
Speaker:And then just it leaves, it comes in.
Speaker:It's a little confusing for me.
Speaker:I know.
Speaker:Because I've, you know, lived amongst other people for so
Speaker:long kind of things like I know.
Speaker:It's appropriate to say thank you and it's appropriate to appreciate
Speaker:the thought, and I can do that.
Speaker:But it's a separated it's like compartmentalized, if you will.
Speaker:So while it's happening, I can't go through any of it while it's happening.
Speaker:I'm just trying to figure out what's being said to me and why
Speaker:it's being said to me that way.
Speaker:And what ends up happening is I get really stressed.
Speaker:And so if it goes very deep when you've got these awards and like if I ever
Speaker:won a lifetime achievement award, and you got the person up there kind
Speaker:of going through the list of things for 40 minutes on why this person's
Speaker:being given that, like, I would just explode completely within there.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:It makes you feel uncomfortable.
Speaker:Well, it, it, it's uncomfortable because I just, I'm not processing it appropriate.
Speaker:And so I've had a time where I had a supervisor, I, I was being given
Speaker:an award and it was over Zoom.
Speaker:And he was going through everything that I did to get the award, and it was too much.
Speaker:And so he's telling me all these positive things and I'm sitting there
Speaker:going like this, and I'm sweating.
Speaker:And so he is like, what's the problem?
Speaker:I'm like, you need to stop.
Speaker:And I'm like, I didn't know.
Speaker:We didn't get to this point because I, I'm not sitting here saying I'm
Speaker:gonna win every award on the planet or whatever, but like, when you're gonna
Speaker:give me a compliment on something, I really need you to be shortened to the
Speaker:facts on it, and that's gonna help me interpret it better and lower my stress.
Speaker:I can't explain why I, why this is the way that it is, but when you go
Speaker:too deep like that, you stress me out when, so now I've given that feedback
Speaker:to people when I'm in circumstances where things are gonna be discussed
Speaker:that are like that, and when they accommodate, they just go very quickly.
Speaker:Hey, you did a great job on this and you've been nominated for this award
Speaker:and you've won it, and that's it.
Speaker:That's super interesting.
Speaker:And I think while not everybody may have that with with praise or with
Speaker:compliments, it could be in general, in the neurodivergence community.
Speaker:The what may feel natural when you're neurotypical does not feel natural, so you
Speaker:may feel uncomfortable or you may feel, you may not interpret things correctly.
Speaker:You could get confused by things that social cues and whatnot.
Speaker:Have you, do you have any of those kind of things, Jarlath?
Speaker:Anytime I'm at like a company awards thing or my gym did an awards
Speaker:thing at Christmas, I basically just have anxiety the whole time.
Speaker:Like, are they gonna call me?
Speaker:Are they not gonna call me?
Speaker:Did I work hard enough?
Speaker:I just can't stop.
Speaker:Like ruminating, I guess is the word we haven't used.
Speaker:Like that's one of the, we're talking hyper focus and you
Speaker:have a helpful thing to solve.
Speaker:Then it's great.
Speaker:The mind just will go and go and go and you, you might be the, you know
Speaker:the person who cracks it and it's great and you have fun on the way.
Speaker:The negative side is something comes to you that you don't, that for whatever
Speaker:reason, you just can't think positively about and just get stuck in it.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:I hate, I hate awards ceremonies.
Speaker:We, one company I was at, they wanted to boost like the morale and
Speaker:they came up with let's do awards.
Speaker:And I just, I went, no.
Speaker:Can't we just all work together for the greater good?
Speaker:That's just, I don't wanna stand out.
Speaker:It just, it doesn't, it doesn't resonate with me for whatever reason.
Speaker:I think that's a little imposter syndrome as well.
Speaker:Like a very common thing.
Speaker:I, I have that like all the time.
Speaker:I'm like, those compliments.
Speaker:I'm like, you're, no, you're, you're trying to get something for me.
Speaker:There's no way this is true.
Speaker:But like the mind just kinda kind of goes there.
Speaker:I don't know if that's like associated with the late diagnosis.
Speaker:'Cause that's, that's one thing that comes up, you know, if you're,
Speaker:you grow up not knowing this about yourself, not feeling as accepted
Speaker:as you, as perhaps your peers do.
Speaker:Maybe it's develops as you grow up.
Speaker:I don't really know.
Speaker:Other, it's a reality as, as a, as an adult has diagnosed that
Speaker:you're just like, I'm not so sure.
Speaker:So yeah, that's a big one for me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:And I think, so as I'm thinking of it as a leader, you know, and I have a team,
Speaker:what I may think is like, oh, they're gonna be so happy because I'm gonna just
Speaker:show everyone this person's amazing.
Speaker:Surprise!
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:And, and that may be the very last thing they want.
Speaker:So let's talk then about advocating for yourself.
Speaker:So that you can get that.
Speaker:And then let's talk about what you, maybe if you've had
Speaker:examples of people doing well.
Speaker:I know Dylan, you've kind of shared a little bit about that
Speaker:in, in advocating for yourself.
Speaker:But what can people do, especially if you're in leadership?
Speaker:We know now 58% of people probably at least are neurodivergent
Speaker:here in our industry.
Speaker:So what, question one.
Speaker:And, and again, I know your journey is, is very short, Jarlath you
Speaker:know, you have only been diagnosed shortly, Dylan's a little bit longer,
Speaker:but are there things you've done Jarlath to help advocate for yourself?
Speaker:And then Dylan, you share as well?
Speaker:Let's start with Jarlath.
Speaker:I think so, but I don't, I didn't really, I don't think I really
Speaker:thought about it that way at the time.
Speaker:The thing I'm working on at the moment is my assertiveness to assert myself better,
Speaker:assert my opinion and needs better.
Speaker:So that's something I'm actively working on.
Speaker:In terms of advocating, I think, I think I used to do a bit, had a bit
Speaker:aggressive about it in hindsight 'cause I kind of was like, not like you know,
Speaker:just didn't understand why it was so hard for the other person to get me.
Speaker:I was like, wait.
Speaker:Don't you experience this well?
Speaker:And the answer was no.
Speaker:They don't.
Speaker:We all assume everyone's thinking and experiencing life the way we do.
Speaker:So you're like, why are you doing this?
Speaker:This is so uncomfortable.
Speaker:I look back and I remember like I, I had a CFO, I worked with since, working
Speaker:with him, and he used to do things.
Speaker:He would give me like good feedback and things like that.
Speaker:He told me, I was just like, I've moved too fast, I think too fast.
Speaker:This is very helpful for me getting my diagnosis.
Speaker:Like he went on to become CEO and had a fabulous exit and I
Speaker:was like, this guy who's hugely successful, incredibly intelligent,
Speaker:told me I was thinking too fast.
Speaker:And I wouldn't explain things like enough steps.
Speaker:I was like, okay, that's, that sounds about right.
Speaker:But he used to do like little things that helped me feel like seen and I think this
Speaker:is what I wanna try and advocate more.
Speaker:He used to bring in his son's math homework.
Speaker:They, every few weeks he'd have like a question and the son couldn't answer, or
Speaker:the textbook answer didn't make sense.
Speaker:And he'd, he'd come down to my desk and he'd be like,
Speaker:right, so I've got another one.
Speaker:And we'd sit there for 20 minutes on the whiteboard, kind of
Speaker:during the son's math homework.
Speaker:And for whatever reason, that just and I like, and I think what I, what
Speaker:I'm learning to advocate is like to just treat me as an individual.
Speaker:Like I've had a few managers who are just like, well, your, your
Speaker:colleague X or Y can do this or that.
Speaker:I'm like, yeah, I don't know why I'm not like them.
Speaker:And so that's, that's something I'm trying to advocate more.
Speaker:I might have the same job title, but I, I'm a different person.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's, no, that's fantastic.
Speaker:That comparison.
Speaker:It just like, we're not supposed to compare our kids.
Speaker:It's really similar.
Speaker:Don't compare your, your team members.
Speaker:Everybody has different strengths and weaknesses, and they're gonna respond
Speaker:really differently to what motivates them.
Speaker:Dylan, what, what about you?
Speaker:What have you found is helpful with advocating?
Speaker:When you have a voice where other people might feel like they don't being the
Speaker:one that speaks up to maybe ask the questions that people who are more
Speaker:shy, maybe people who are masking in these cases or they won't ask.
Speaker:I worked with a, a gentleman previously that he was on a he had diagnosis
Speaker:of autism as well, and we were on a call with leaders across the entire
Speaker:company going into reviews and it was talking about what we should be
Speaker:doing as leaders to have the best experience possible with our employees
Speaker:while we're talking through with them.
Speaker:And they were talking a lot about things like eye contact and they were
Speaker:talking about a lot of things like you know, the, the way that you ask certain
Speaker:questions or the tone that you use as you're speaking or anything like that.
Speaker:And this gentleman spoke up and raised his hand and said, that's all great, but
Speaker:what you just described is not inclusive of any of our neurodivergent employees.
Speaker:And just even that, he opened the door for a whole bunch of people who may have
Speaker:had diagnosis, may have felt like they're on the spectrum, one thing or the other.
Speaker:To sit there and think, ah, this was uncomfortable for me.
Speaker:And now somebody else has actually opened that up.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:In, in taking that lead and I really connected the dot on if we were
Speaker:having some other conversation where maybe I'm an expert and other people
Speaker:aren't that are in the room, but they don't know what questions to ask.
Speaker:I'll ask questions even if I know the answer to them, to try to open
Speaker:up that it's okay to ask questions and open the door for maybe other
Speaker:questions that that might trigger.
Speaker:I try to do the same thing.
Speaker:Is whenever there's a chance to have a conversation where we can
Speaker:talk about how we behave differently and I'm able to open up in there
Speaker:something about you know, this, this community of folks in the workplace.
Speaker:I have had very good results on people A coming to me, opening up
Speaker:to me directly, but then, you know, getting the courage to open up a
Speaker:little bit more broadly to others and that they've had success in doing so.
Speaker:So I think from an advocating standpoint, it's creating that environment where
Speaker:you are, you are driving inclusion by just saying things aren't the same.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I love the idea of as a neurotypical, you know, coworker or leader
Speaker:being able to advocate for, and so that, that means a little bit of
Speaker:a level of understanding though.
Speaker:And I feel like also from you gentlemen, as we were talking about, you need to
Speaker:understand your own areas that maybe are different from what other people are.
Speaker:So you can advocate for yourself to say like, oh, I, I talk a little bit too much,
Speaker:or my mind moves too fast, or, so it, it does require kind of some understanding.
Speaker:Unfortunately, we're running out of time and I, we need like
Speaker:part 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 of this.
Speaker:But if you had one piece of advice.
Speaker:Or, or if you have seven pieces of advice, whatever.
Speaker:What is your advice for leaders, specifically leaders out there?
Speaker:I know there's a lot of you in the audience.
Speaker:The majority of your workers in this industry are likely neurodivergent.
Speaker:You probably don't know that.
Speaker:You probably are unaware of who that may be with the masking, the hiding,
Speaker:the, the keeping, trying to fit in.
Speaker:What can these leaders do?
Speaker:You've, you've touched on some great things already, but if you have some
Speaker:final advice, anything we've missed, let's, let's get that here today
Speaker:and, and throw it in the comments.
Speaker:If you wanna hear more, we can have a lot of topics on everything from hyper
Speaker:focus to how do you take, you know, that hyper focus and use it as a superpower.
Speaker:What are some, some things that we've done so we could get into more.
Speaker:So let me know if you wanna hear more episodes, but let's start with
Speaker:Jarlath and then we'll end with Dylan.
Speaker:Jarlath.
Speaker:Any just sort of final advice in the last few minutes?
Speaker:Yeah, I think the one that always resonated strongly with me before and
Speaker:after diagnosis was creating a workplace where feels psychologically safe.
Speaker:I think that's a term that kind of encompasses quite well a good, workplace
Speaker:promotes inclusivity, whether it's neurodivergence or something else, just
Speaker:somewhere where people can be themselves with diagnosed, not diagnosed using the
Speaker:terms or not, whatever it is, you know?
Speaker:'Cause some people are, you know, this, some stigma that comes with it.
Speaker:You know, you want, you know it, but you don't want to tell
Speaker:people or goes in their journey.
Speaker:I, I think I knew it for two years, but it was in denial.
Speaker:My, my wife's ADHD.
Speaker:Was kind of took me a long time to go, I'm gonna go get assessed.
Speaker:It took them 10 minutes.
Speaker:That was like, you know you just kinda, you need to, you don't wanna
Speaker:be like, set back or anything.
Speaker:So, yeah, psychological safety I think's the big one, you know, if someone
Speaker:comes and says, I need this, you know, they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to
Speaker:go to the doctor and produce a note.
Speaker:In most circumstances.
Speaker:I'm sure there's exceptions, you know, but asking people to prove they need it.
Speaker:I, I think just trust people, you know, that's the best
Speaker:thing to, best thing to do.
Speaker:Some people will take advantage of it.
Speaker:It's inevitable.
Speaker:But you know, I think it's for, for the greater good.
Speaker:It's, it's best won, promote that psychological safety or work.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Dylan.
Speaker:My biggest piece of advice is back to that, that word inclusion is don't take
Speaker:this conversation or the conversations that you've had that have kind of
Speaker:pointed you towards this topic and over index and hyperfocus yourself on,
Speaker:what do you do with this community?
Speaker:There's this great illustration that's out there on the difference between
Speaker:exclusion, segregation, integration, and an inclusion, and just the high level.
Speaker:You've got a group here.
Speaker:Then just kind of these other folks are, that's exclusion.
Speaker:You've said these ones belong and, and these are just kind of everybody else.
Speaker:Then you've got segregation, right?
Speaker:You've got a group here, and then you've drawn a circle around a group here,
Speaker:but you haven't brought 'em together.
Speaker:They're two completely separate things.
Speaker:Then you've got integration where you take that second circle and
Speaker:you move it inside the big circle, but it's still its own circle.
Speaker:Included, but it's still this own little, little pocket
Speaker:that kinda sits around there.
Speaker:Inclusion is truly all the different circles and squares and triangles
Speaker:and everything inside that hole.
Speaker:It's really bringing in, so you're not creating quiet places to work in the
Speaker:office for people who are neurodivergent.
Speaker:You're creating quiet places in the office for people who may need time that
Speaker:is quieter than others for what they do.
Speaker:And that could be anybody.
Speaker:You're not considering people wearing headphones at their desk as a concession
Speaker:for people who have a disability.
Speaker:It is, if you work better and you're more efficient at what
Speaker:you do with headphones, sure.
Speaker:As long as you're able to get your job done, right, it's, we should be
Speaker:finding the way and really acknowledging that everybody thinks differently.
Speaker:We should be finding the ways that we're making people, giving people
Speaker:the ability to be as effective as possible in the jobs that they have.
Speaker:We hired them for it, we interviewed them.
Speaker:We, we understand their skillsets.
Speaker:Allow 'em to put 'em to play.
Speaker:Don't take that step too far where you draw a circle around it.
Speaker:Keep it with everybody.
Speaker:It's, I've heard a saying once, the opposite of fitting in is
Speaker:belonging, which is interesting.
Speaker:Fitting in is just trying to make yourself like every other person.
Speaker:Belonging is you are yourself and you belong.
Speaker:And that sounds exactly what you were saying.
Speaker:There are so many.
Speaker:It's a great point.
Speaker:There are so many people who have different strengths, different weaknesses,
Speaker:different working styles, different learning styles, and as, especially
Speaker:as leaders, that is our job is to make sure everyone belongs, not that
Speaker:everyone just fits into the box that we want 'em to fix into, fit into.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Fantastic discussion.
Speaker:I'm super inspired by both of you and I'm really inspired to think about my own team
Speaker:and what I can do to make sure that we are making sure everyone belongs and that
Speaker:they are living up to their potential.
Speaker:So thank you so much for being here.
Speaker:This has been a fantastic episode.
Speaker:Appreciate you both so much.
Speaker:Thank you for having us.
Speaker:Anybody who's listening, please reach out if you have more questions as well.
Speaker:We are happy to.
Speaker:Great point, great point.
Speaker:Where can they get in contact with you?
Speaker:Jarlath?
Speaker:Are you on LinkedIn?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:There's only one Jarlath Phelan on LinkedIn, so I'm easy to find.
Speaker:The benefits of a unique name.
Speaker:So go to LinkedIn, connect with these guys, talk to them.
Speaker:They can give you suggestions.
Speaker:So, fantastic episode.
Speaker:Thank you again so much.
Speaker:And leave us a note in the comments, like, subscribe, all those things.
Speaker:Let us know what questions you have and we'll see you next time.
