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Self-Empowerment Tools and Tips with Catherine DeMonte
Episode 2923rd May 2023 • The Connectedness Podcast with Rev Karen Cleveland • Rev Karen Cleveland
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Do I need Self-Empowerment Tools?

People talk a lot about self-empowerment and reaching our full potential. Do we really know how to do it? Can we really understand the things that prevent us from attaining our full potential? Self-Empowerment is easier said than done and without the proper tools and understanding, we might not be able to attain it. Some of the things that stop us are “shadows”. Learn how the “shadows” of our past can shape our perceptions, change how we live our lives and find out how we can step out from these “shadows’ and start living an unstoppable life.

Catherine DeMonte is a licensed marriage, family, and child therapist providing integral counseling in California for over 25 years. She’s also the author of a book called Beep Beep, Get Outta My Way, and Seven Tools For Living Your Unstoppable Life. She is the founder of the Abundant Circle offering workshops all over the US to bring the one big thing into your life that you’ve been longing for. Her goal is to help her clients feel less triggered and more empowered and inspired to live joy-filled lives. She is a Psychology major and started learning meditation thereafter.

In this episode, we’ll understand:

  • How Self-Empowerment can improve our daily lives.
  • Tools needed to be able to achieve Self-Empowerment.
  • Understand our own Shadows and how to use them towards our own advantage.
  • How Limiting Beliefs hinder us from progressing and how to work on these.
  • Understanding the “Receiving” part of Give and Receive.
  • The value of Listening Deeply and how to fully utilize it and create deeper connections.

How to reach Catherine:

Website/Social Links:

https://www.catherinedemonte.com/

https://www.instagram.com/catherinedemonte/?hl=en

How to contact:

catherinedemonte@gmail.com

I really hope to connect with you personally so please send me a message here or join me in my Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/connectednesswithrevkaren. And in the meantime, enjoy the show! 

Transcripts

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Hello and welcome to the Connectedness Podcast.

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Just as you might have guessed, I talk about connection and connectedness

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on this podcast, our connection with everything in the world around us.

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Whether you see it or not, we're all connected, and it doesn't matter if it's

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our dog, our cat, our God, our body.

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And I'll also talk about some more.

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Abstract connections like our career or our land, our community, our emotions,

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your body life is all about connection.

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So the sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can have an

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easier, more meaningful life.

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I will talk about these connections through different lenses.

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Things like synchronicities and coincidences are just.

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Everyday little bits of magic and miracles that we, we usually dismiss.

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It's really important that we pay attention to all of this so we can

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live an easier, more meaningful life.

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So welcome to the show.

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I'm your host, Karen Cleveland.

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. Welcome back to the show everyone.

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I am really excited to introduce my guest today because I have been Kind

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of following her reading up on her, and she's super interesting, kind of

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a amazing, interesting, backstory, how she started life, and of course

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full of empowerment tips and tools.

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My guest today is Catherine Demont.

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She is a licensed marriage, family, and child therapist

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providing integral counseling in California for over 25 years.

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She's also the author of a book called Beep Beep, get Outta My Way.

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Seven Tools For Living Your Unstoppable Life, which I wanna get into.

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What a great title.

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and the founder of the Abundant Circle offering workshops all over

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the US to bring the one big thing into your life that you've been

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longing for., and I really love this.

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Her goal is to help clients feel less triggered, more empowered, and more

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inspired to live joyfilled lives.

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Her approach centers on giving clients tools to deal with the blocks

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on their path so that they can see that events don't happen to us.

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They happen for us.

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Everything that happens in our life is an opportunity for our

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growth, healing, and expansion.

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All right, so I'd love to welcome to the show.

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Welcome, Catherine.

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Thank you.

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Thank you so much.

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Yeah, I appreciate, I appreciate being here.

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Absolutely.

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It's a pleasure to have you.

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Thank you Now.

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Reading from your website.

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I know a few things about you, you started out your professional

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practice as a therapist, so what brought you into therapy?

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What's kind of the background that took you there?

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And then we can discuss how you went on from there in, in a few minutes.

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Sure.

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Well, thank you.

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Yes.

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I think I knew in high school I wanted to be a therapist.

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All the adults that I knew that I liked the most and felt

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closest to were therapists.

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Not that we had a lot of them in my circle, but my, my parents' circle.

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But there were a couple of them and they were extraordinary women.

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They were wise and kind, and they just, they just seemed to know so much.

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So that inspired me.

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Wow.

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And that inspired me to take a psychology class, which I loved.

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And.

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, I knew them.

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That that's what I wanted to do.

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That was sort of my, my start.

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Okay.

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Once I was in the field, I completely fell in love with it.

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It's, it's an incredible field, in my opinion.

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Yeah.

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It is.

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I, I mean, necessary and helpful at the same time, so.

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But you kind of , go beyond the scope of what a, a normal therapist, like if

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I were to go to my therapist down the street, I might not gets some of the

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same tools and et cetera that you offer.

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What was that journey like for you?

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I originally did more typical as well, and I still do that, most of the time.

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But if a client is open to the spiritual side of things . I really,

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really love working with that.

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What, what the lessons are what's trying to show up, what's trying

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to emerge needs looking at I like bringing in things like meditation

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intention setting things like that.

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Watching our thoughts are really believe in the power of, of manifestation and,

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and how we can attract what we want.

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So I bring that in as well.

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And that's what the abundant circles are about too, by the.

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That's beautiful, so thank you.

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Did you, did that follow your personal path or was that part of you be

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when you started professionally and then you decided to incorporate it?

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Or how did your spiritual journey begin?

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It start?

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Well, the, in terms of the practice for your, to, to answer your, the first

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part of your question, I originally didn't tap it as part, but I noticed

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in my own life that that money kept being tight for my husband and for me.

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And so travel wasn't happening.

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We could, could make, the, the, no, the regular bills and get those

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paid and make regular payments on things and stay pretty caught up.

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But we kept not being able to travel.

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That was my one big.

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. And so for other people it might be finding a partner.

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Mm-hmm.

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, maybe they have a, a job they love, but they wish they had

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a partner to share life with.

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Or they're married, but money's really tight and so that's their

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one big thing they wanna attract.

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So that was sort of the impetus.

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That's a good example of things don't happen to us and they happen for us

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because the lack of being able to have enough to do things together and travel.

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was the, the catalyst for me looking more inward.

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Why is it, why does this keep happening?

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That's always out of reach.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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. Yeah.

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Why is this happening to me?

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Mm-hmm.

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, I, I felt that way too at one point in my life.

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So it's mm-hmm.

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, it's a har it's hard to look at sometimes, but, but necessary.

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What are some of the, tools or the methods or , how do people identify that kind

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of, , Story that they haveing the lead.

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I think the way people start identifying it is looking at the

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thing that keeps coming up, that they're pointing a finger at.

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Like if that thing over there stopped happening, then I'd be okay.

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Mm-hmm.

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Instead of what does it bring up for me that, that's not happening.

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Right.

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It, it's sort of easy to see that this thing or this person causes me to.

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as opposed to that distress brings up, I didn't feel loved enough as a child, or

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I felt abandoned, or I have some trauma.

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If, if we turn the lens this way instead and go into what that material brings

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up, that's, that's where it's juicy and that's where the good stuff is.

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And so that's where, sort of how I introduce it, is getting

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them to change their, their focus from the outside to, to.

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. And the best way to do that, in my opinion, is to see how it feels familiar.

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How the going without, like what that brings up and how that's

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familiar or how the way somebody's responding to us, what that feels

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like and how that might feel familiar.

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And then what story we told about ourselves given that behavior.

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So for example, if we feel abandoned by a partner or we aren't dating and wish we

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were, and that makes us feel alone, what does that bring up in your childhood?

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And then, What does that experience in your childhood?

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What did it tell you or what did you tell yourself about yourself?

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Right, about that happening?

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Like, I'm not enough, or I'm too much.

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In stories like that, those limiting beliefs and faulty stories that we, we go

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away with, that were never true about us.

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Right, right.

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. So I'm just curious, and maybe my listeners are too, you

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are a child therapist, family and, and child, children.

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Do you help children identify some of these right now, like as

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their children, so they don't have to wait until they're adults and

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then have to figure it out then?

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Yeah.

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, or is that outside of the scope of a, of a child therapist?

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Well through through play and I used to have in my, I don't have my office

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anymore cuz I had to leave it from after the pandemic started, but I

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had two sand trays with miniatures and children could work out.

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Their, their issues with it are, I don't know if you're familiar with that.

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It's a young bit, yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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. So with children, it was nice cuz I didn't have to directly say,

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that, that that's not true or when did you first believe that?

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But they could work it out.

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Mm-hmm.

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in their play.

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. And that's how, how I worked it with children.

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It's, so, it's a little different than working with adults where

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I'm a lot more direct or getting them to look inward this way.

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Right.

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Children got out, but it was amazing to see how effective that that is.

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Cause changes would happen.

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Mm-hmm.

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, like if they were angry and worked out things in the, in the sand tray with

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miniatures or if they were depressed and work out things, it changed.

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Yeah.

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Changed their behavior.

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. Yeah.

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And that could change the whole trajectory of their life, right?

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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That's important.

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It's, it's too bad.

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More children can't get the assistance they need when, when they're young.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, yeah, it would save a lot of time.

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a lot of work in therapy later, . That's right.

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That's right.

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So, your book, let me bring up the name of it again.

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I know it's beep, beep.

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Get outta my way.

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So, seven Tools for Living Your Unstoppable Life.

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If I remember correctly on the cover, there's a little red Volkswagen Beetle.

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Is that right?

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Yes, there is.

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Yeah.

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Oh, that's so cute.

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So beep beep.

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Thank you.

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Get out outta my way.

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So not only I wanna know about the book, but the title get Outta My Way.

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What is that referring to?

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Well, thank you for asking.

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I love that question.

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It refers to when I notice.

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When people were in the abundant circle, they did always attract the

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thing that was missing for them.

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Like if it was a partner or more financial gain or I wanna get out

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of the states and move someplace, but I don't have enough money.

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But they still found a way.

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That was their big thing.

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The thing that was missing in their life.

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The thing that hurt not to have.

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Yeah.

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But when it showed up, they were unstoppable.

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Cause I feel like they knew if they, if they realized I, I finally

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got this big thing, I can get the small things , I can do anything.

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Yeah.

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I'm really on fire.

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I'm really lit up.

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Yeah.

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There, there's, I shouldn.

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I shouldn't quan quantify it like big and little things because I did notice that

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people could always, almost always attract a parking spot in a crowded . Right.

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Right.

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Parking lot if they wanted to.

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Okay.

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The call on their parking lot, angel and it magically a spot would show up.

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There is a reason I think that we can attract the smaller things.

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It's because we're not attached that much to the outcome.

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It would just be really nice to get one oh, but when we really, really,

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really wanna partner or we really, really are afraid, if more money doesn't

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come in, I'm gonna lose my house.

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I, I'm really panicked about this.

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I really, really hope, university,

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there's kind of a grip on.

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It's kind of instead of I really wish a spot would show up.

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Right?

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That kind of energy's actually necessary.

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We have to really know what you want and define it very

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clearly, but then let it go.

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Mm-hmm.

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. But when it's the big thing that we really would love, it would

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make a difference in our life.

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We have a An anxious energy around it, kind of.

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But I can't live without this energy.

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And the universe goes, okay, I got it.

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You, you're really anxious about this and I'm matching your energy.

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Yeah.

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I'm matching your energy that it can't come, or I'm afraid it won't come.

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You get more of afraid of it not coming, you get more of that, if that makes sense.

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But when Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

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Yeah.

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Go ahead.

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Good.

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Cause it's about vibration, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So when people realize they can attract, , there was no stopping them . Fascinating.

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Yeah.

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Then there left and right.

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So get outta my way, man.

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I'm moving.

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I feel that's right.

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Uhhuh.

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Yeah.

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. Well that's awesome.

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Thank, thank you.

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And, and then it includes tips in it and, and manifesting tools Right.

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Inside the book itself.

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Mm-hmm.

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. So what makes it, what makes it a unique.

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So thank you.

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The thing to me that made it different than other things I've read or watched

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on Mani manifesting was shadow work, which is a Carl Young technique of

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knowing what's our, our deepest trigger.

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The thing that makes us the, the parts we hide from ourselves.

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That's why it's in our shadow.

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I found if without doing that, that when I tried to manifest before knowing

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more about the shadow, that I tried.

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Everything I heard on the Secret and everything I'd read about.

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Right.

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I tried to be positive.

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I did my affirmations.

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I visualized, I did vision boards and, and travel for me, still wasn't

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showing up the, the money for traveling.

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Mm-hmm.

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. And then I felt bad that I couldn't get that right.

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So I felt kind of depressed that I was doing every, doing

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everything and it wasn't showing up.

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So there was, it felt like a failure.

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I think doing the shadow work becomes really important when we're doing, trying

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to do manifestation because it can't come in if it bumps into our shadow.

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So shadow, what does that mean?

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The shadow, so, and how does it bump into our shadow?

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Mm-hmm.

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. So my unconscious beliefs, which would be in my shadow,

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are things like, I'm not enough.

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Okay.

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Or, I'm too much.

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Okay.

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Or, who am I to have?

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, and that might come from, let's say we had an older brother or older sister

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who was sort of the star of the family and we kind of recognized that the

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whole family kind of accepted that.

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So we felt like things don't get to happen for me.

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Right.

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But that's okay.

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I'm just sort of used to it.

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I understand that they're that football star or a, a bright student, so,

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and I'm not that, but that's okay.

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I'm, I'm an okay person, but in my shadow is I don't get to have or

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good things happen to other people.

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Okay, so I shadow means that the parts of ourself that are

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rejected or hidden from our view.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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So it's really, really underground.

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Wow.

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We just got used to behaving in a certain way or seeing ourselves a

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certain way or believing a certain thing.

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. Okay.

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So, mm-hmm.

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. So those are, are limiting beliefs.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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. Okay.

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Okay.

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Limiting beliefs either about the world or about ourselves.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Mm-hmm.

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, right.

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Yeah.

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An example of how shadow can show up would be, let's say you were a cute

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little girl singing in your hair into your hairbrush in front of the mirror,

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and you were really, you, you just were enjoying it and lost in the moment.

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And a parent walked by and said, don't be so.

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We might not know what vain meant, but we knew that was bad.

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Yeah.

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So we would try really hard to never be vain, but that would

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mean we'd also lack confidence or sharing good news about ourselves.

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We, and we would despise that trait in other people.

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Mm-hmm.

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so it would make sure we were never, ever vain, but you can

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imagine how that can block us too, from showing up more fully in.

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But it's in our shadow.

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We're completely unaware of it being there.

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It went underground so early.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah, and, and that's interesting what you say about it showing up in

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other people and us not liking it in other people either as mm-hmm.

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. . So it's always a good, I'm not liking something in you.

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I need to make sure I look at at myself in that.

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Right, exactly.

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It's like what, what we learned when we were little, like if you point a

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finger at somebody, have three others pointing back, , uhhuh, . It might be

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a trait that most of us don't like, but if we're actually triggered by it,

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that means it's probably in our shadow.

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So where in, where in me do I have that?

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Right.

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Right.

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So sometimes people will say, I would never do that thing.

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It's not about the behavior, it's about the trait.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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The trait.

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Mm-hmm.

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. That makes sense.

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Interesting.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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. And then how do we shift one of those beliefs , how do

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we deal with that once we.

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Yeah, that's a good question.

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One way is to bring what's in our shadow up to the light of consciousness, and

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then find out where it's positive.

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opposite is, so if it's vanity that's in our shadow, we'd want to

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learn how we could be competent.

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Cuz that might be the oh.

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Or if we don't like judgmental people, like I would never be so judgmental.

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Well, first of all, I might be being judgmental or judgmental

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people, if that's in my shadow.

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But if we don't, if we really get triggered by people who are judgmental,

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that might be in our shadow.

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So maybe we turn that into, instead of calling it judgmental,

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we might call it discern.

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, like, I'm gonna be very discerning about the people I hang out with, or

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I'm gonna be discerning about, who I led into my space, things like that.

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Okay.

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Because what's in our shadow, when it's flipped to its opposite positive

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trait, it can actually be our strongest trait, our most powerful trait.

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So it's important to do the work on that.

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Oh, okay.

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Mm-hmm.

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. Yeah.

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And, and really make us more confident in.

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Whatever it is then.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Exactly, exactly.

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And the book has a chapter on really simple ways to, to find

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what's in your shadow specifically, and then how to turn it around.

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It's really not as hard as, as one would think either.

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It's not as always.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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when done this way.

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So, and then you also go into this in your abundant circles as well?

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Yes, Uhhuh, it's one of the seven tools.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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. So I I saw that one of the tools or one of the things you talk about is receiving.

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Yes.

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Now, it seems like that would be easy to do one would think,

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but it's actually quite hard.

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We as, and women are, I don't mean to generalize, but

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we're especially bad at it.

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Mm-hmm.

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, we even have diff a difficult time receiving a compli.

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Oh, isn't that true?

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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If somebody said, oh, I like what you, you know what you've done with your hair?

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Really?

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I was, this is gonna cut it.

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Or, I like your dress.

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That's really pretty.

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Really?

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I got it at Ross.

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It was 10 bucks.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I paid, paid $10 for it.

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Exactly.

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What's that about?

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But it's really important that we receive, because if we're asking the

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universe to say some send something.

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and we can't receive it.

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Can't send the big stuff.

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If we can't receive something like a compli.

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or help, help out with groceries.

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Sometimes we have big, big bags of groceries and the the bagger

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asks if we need help, it's so much more likely that we'll say, no.

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Thank you.

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I've got it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Then yes, please.

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That would be awesome, . Absolutely.

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I also read somewhere a long time ago that.

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we're more likely to serve everyone else.

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The better cuts of, well, I don't eat meat, but the better cuts of meat at

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dinner or the, the best food at dinner and we take what's left over, yeah.

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That sounds very typical of a lot of women.

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Yeah.

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We ha we hear so many messages about, about receiving or how it might be

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bad, like's better to receive give than to receive and things like that.

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And it looks uncom or it might make us feel indebted.

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. Yeah.

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Like if I, if you give to me a, so I'd rather not, or sometimes we may

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reject a compliment from a man if we wonder what he wants, if we don't

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know him well does all kinds of Right.

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Stuff gets, or, told around receiving instead of just Thank you.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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That, that's what we really need to, to remember to say.

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Yeah.

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. Wow.

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A a and how, how do all these things, I mean, we, we have talked a little

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bit about these beliefs, like, singing into the, into the microphone , but

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do they only start in childhood or, do these stack up over our lifetime?

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How do all these limiting beliefs really stick to us?

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Mm-hmm.

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, I think they stick because they started in childhood.

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There's a place for it to land.

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Oh.

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If you think of the early Hertz as maybe being a shelf inside of.

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That, that we then tell ourselves a story about ourselves.

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Then the other things, the other examples that feel similar will

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land on top of that and build.

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So if it's that we're too much or we're in the way, or we're greedy or we're

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bossy, or we're slow or whatever we've told ourselves, yeah, we, we keep finding

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what we feel is proof of that and.

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and then it becomes confirmation biased, doesn't it?

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Like, because I keep getting this proof.

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I know it to be true.

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Yeah.

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Right?

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Mm-hmm.

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, that's true.

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It just keeps reinforcing it, I guess.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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. I also read somewhere on your website about, the value of listening deeply.

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Mm-hmm.

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, do you wanna speak to that?

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Yeah, thank you.

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I, I mean it both for, for ourselves and with ourselves and with with others, but

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that's where deeper connection comes from.

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Deeper connection to self and others.

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So kind of going beneath and beneath and beneath is we're listening to

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somebody or listening to ourselves.

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So with ourselves, that might look like, look, I guess the

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example that came up earlier would be an ex would, would fit here.

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That comment made me feel this way.

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Instead of stopping there or just judging them, we might ask when else I,

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when, when else have I felt that way?

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You're kind of talking to your inner child.

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Oh.

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Which is really imperative, in my opinion, to really talk, and I like

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putting a hand on my heart and on my solar plexes, or teaching my clients

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too, to really connect to that part.

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and being still and listening, and sometimes a little memory will come

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up, just a flicker, and it might not even feel related, but if we listen

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to that, even like I'm seeing that time when that thing happened, what,

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can you tell me more about that?

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What happened and what that felt like?

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What did you tell yourself when that happened?

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About yourself?

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Just sort of peeling away layers of an onion to get to the, to the

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center by listening like that.

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Wow.

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Mm-hmm.

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. . I just felt like that the energy just, deep listening is really, it's

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a really a meaningful empowering thing for us to do for ourselves, isn't it?

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Yeah, yeah,

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it actually gets to reparent that place, doesn't it?

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That's part of the issues that we've weren't heard to

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deeply listening re for that.

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And sometimes we can even say that to her and say, I'm listening.

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or journaling can be a way to listen.

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Yeah.

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If we do kind of automatic writing, just let what, what

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wants to come out flow, right.

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Right.

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If , one of my listeners really likes what, what you're saying, , what

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are the best ways to work with you?

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So you, I heard you say you closed your therapy practice after covid,

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or not the practice maybe, but your.

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Right.

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But I, I do work online.

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Yeah.

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You do work online?

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Yeah.

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Which has been great.

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You have the abundant circles, and that's all online as well?

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Yes, it is.

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And your book, do you have, do you do anything else?

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, that's pretty much it.

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My, my book and my abundant circles and the which, which I love.

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They're so sweet.

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Yeah.

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They seem to track the exact right combination of pe of people each time too.

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That just.

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end up being so close and attracting what they want.

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It's really, they're very magical.

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And then my private practice as well.

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Nice.

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Nice.

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All right.

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And I'm I'll go through your website address at the end.

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I'm not actually done asking you questions yet, but I was just, I

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just wanted to get that out there.

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It's like, how, how do we work with you if we wanted to?

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So . Do you have a favorite way to self-educate?

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What's your favorite method of gaining new information or insights or, Hmm.

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Anything, new that's out there.

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There are so many beautiful new things out there.

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There are a couple of platforms that put on incredible speakers and workshops.

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Sand is one, which is science and Non-Duality and the Shift Network.

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Mm-hmm.

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put on wonderful workshops.

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I love being on those.

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Listening to people whose work I've followed or am being

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introduced to for the first time.

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That's one of the ways I keep learning.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'm also, I bet you are too.

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I had a big reader.

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I, I like reading looks on, on this topic and these topics.

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. Yeah.

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There's not enough time to read books, . No, there's not.

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I mean, I mean, there's so many good books, is what I mean.

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Yeah.

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I haven't heard of Sand before, which, and I'm surprised.

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I'm gonna, I'm gonna look that up.

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Amazing.

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Oh, it's been incredible.

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Mm-hmm.

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. Yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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I'm glad you know it now.

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I think you'll like it.

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So it's, this is why I l I love doing this, is being able to talk to the people

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and , instead of someone just going to a website and saying, I don't know

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anything about this person, getting to know people a little bit so they at least.

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, if they hear my podcast or another one you're on, at least get an

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idea of what the person is like, so.

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, if there was something you wish everyone in the world knew

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right now, what would that be?

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Hmm.

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Not a great question.

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I think it would be that the answer lies within, and I certainly didn't

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invent that, but I wish people knew it.

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Yeah.

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If we get quiet and listen for asking ourselves what's best for me?

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Yeah.

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Not just what, what somebody else might say, but what, what do I need to do here?

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What's, what's in my best and highest good here?

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. If we get still and quiet, we can find it.

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And I, and I wish people knew that.

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I think a lot of us give our authority and power away.

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Yeah.

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By asking others, like, what should I do?

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I think, when we know Absolutely.

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Mm-hmm.

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, I, I think so too.

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The answer is within mm-hmm.

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. All right.

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Why don't you let us know where we can find you on the internet or anywhere.

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And also if there's anything else you wanna share before

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we close the show today,

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Sure.

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So where they can find me is it my website, catherine demont.com.

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Catherine's with a c.

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Demont my book is available on Amazon or elsewhere and there's also a journal

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that goes, goes with it if people went, which has been very helpful to nice

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to, to have, cuz there are prompts in it and beautiful quotes and lots

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of pages for doing the exercises.

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Is it recommended that you read the book if you get the journal?

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Or can the journal stand.

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It could stand alone.

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Okay.

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But I think it might be a power, a more powerful manifestor to read

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the book because it goes deeper into the other, is more of a

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creative process around the tools.

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Okay.

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But I think knowing how they work and, and the exercises in the book

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might make it what you do in the journal have a little more Oo,

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Perfect.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Well, of course I'll have links on the show notes and on my podcast page as well.

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But I wanna thank you very much for being here today.

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It was very informational and inspiring of what the work you're doing, so thank you.

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Oh, you're so welcome.

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Thank you too.

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Thank you for having me.

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It's really a pleasure and an honor.

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I, I love being with you.

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All right.

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Well, thank you.

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And I'm gonna say goodbye to the listeners.

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We'll talk to you soon.

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All right.

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Bye.

Rev Karen:

If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to head

Rev Karen:

over to rev karen podcast.com.

Rev Karen:

That's R E V K A R E N podcast.com.

Rev Karen:

There you're gonna find the tools for finding more meaning

Rev Karen:

and happiness in your own life.

Rev Karen:

Plus, if you have a story that you want to share with me, either on or off the

Rev Karen:

air, be sure to look for that form.

Rev Karen:

Make sure you follow me so you get notified when new episodes drop.

Rev Karen:

And also I'd love to connect with you and my Facebook group

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Rev Karen:

So head over to rev podcast.com.

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