Navigating the transformation of the energy sector, particularly as fossil fuel giants like Equinor pivot towards renewable energy, is no small task.

This episode dives into the intricacies of this transition, highlighting the role of sustainability professionals who find themselves at the crossroads of environmental responsibility and corporate profitability.

My guest is Natasha Blisson, a seasoned expert in sustainability at Equinor, with a career journey spanning from the French Ministry for Environment to leading a team focused on managing environmental and social risks within Equinor. Her insights reveal the complexities and challenges faced by energy companies as they strive to balance ambitious sustainability goals with the realities of profitability and market pressures.

The conversation touches on the importance of collaboration across sectors—government, industry, and civil society—to create a unified front in the fight against climate change. Natasha emphasizes that true progress will require innovation not just in technology, but also in economic models and regulatory frameworks. This holistic approach is crucial for developing solutions that are both effective and economically viable, paving the way for a sustainable future.

Natasha provides a candid look at the duality of feeling like a change agent while grappling with the frustrations of an industry that has historically relied on fossil fuels.

Takeaways:

• The energy transition requires collaboration between industries, policymakers, and civil society to succeed.
• Equinor's ambitious net-zero goal by 2050 emphasizes the need for sustainable practices in energy.
• The challenge of balancing sustainability and profitability is a constant dilemma.
• Carbon capture and storage technologies are seen as vital for achieving short-term climate goals.
• Understanding the complexities of energy production helps shift perspectives from good versus bad.

When trying to understand the complex landscape of the green transition, we often find ourselves pointing fingers at the energy sector.

But what's really happening inside these companies?

And how does a sustainability professional navigate the different dilemmas arising as a fossil fuel giant is trying to transform into a renewable energy leader?

That's the topic of today's episode.

Welcome to Stories for the Future.

This is a podcast that aims to.

Make you feel excited and hopeful about amazing possibilities ahead of us.

My name is Veslimayklavnespargje and I'm on a mission to discover how we can all live good lives, have interesting jobs, take care of our planet, and look after everyone who lives here.

I believe that everyday people have the.

Power to shape the future.

Together we can create a world that we're all excited about.

Join me on this journey as we explore these ideas.

And remember, the future is in our hands and I'm confident we can make it really good.

This conversation is exactly what this season is about.

Seeking out different perspectives and challenging our assumptions.

I think it's a bit like traveling to foreign countries in a way.

You can never really understand how people are, why they do what they do.

Live like they live.

Until you have gone there, met people, talk to them, seeing that they have more or less the same challenges, worries.

Joys, thoughts as you have.

As I keep saying, nothing is ever black or white.

It's always nuances.

Whether you see big energy companies as part of the problem or potential drivers of the solution, I think this episode potentially can make you think differently about the role these organizations play play in our transition to a sustainable future.

My guest today is Natasha Blisson.

Before moving to Norway, she worked at the French Ministry for Environment and did an internship at the European Commission in Brussels.

Natasha has a background as a political scientist with a Master's of Environmental policies.

She has spent all her career working on sustainability, which is the topic she is most passionate about.

Here's my conversation with Natasha Blisson.

Welcome Natasha to two Stories for the Future.

I'm really, really happy about today's episode because today we get to have one of these different perspectives, which is exactly what the whole point with this season is and that is from someone inside the energy industry.

Because you work as a sustainability leader, impact management and consenting team.

You have to tell us more about that later in Equinor, which is Norway's state owned energy company headquartered in Stavanger where you are based.

And we got connected through our Mutual friend, Michel Wolfstirn.

So thank you, Michelle.

And like him, you are French originally.

So how did you end up in Norway?

Thanks a lot.

Thank you.

I really look forward to our discussion.

At that time it was called Statoil.

My background is a political scientist.

I have a master in environmental policy.

So coming more from the policy side and then I move in the corporate climate team.

And since then I've been part of Equinor sustainability function.

And we are more than 100 colleagues supporting the company, managing environmental and social risk for all the different activities of the company.

And as you mentioned, now I'm leader of a team where we are supporting project.

So we're a team of 25 experts supporting project across Equinor.

So that could be oil and gas project, renewable project, or what we call low carbon solution project, could be carbon capture and storage or hydrogen.

And those projects could be in Norway or internationally, like in Brazil, in the UK or Northern Europe.

Great.

So but you have actually been working with sustainability and climate all the time you have been in Statoil Equinor, right?

Exactly.

Yes, on my career and that my patient.

So, you know, I just want to work in that field.

Yes.

And that I think is.

So it's interesting that you have stayed this whole period and through this very interesting time when it comes to the energy transition.

So we're really excited to hear more about that.

So in this, in this role in, in Equiner, what is your typical day like?

What is it?

What kind of work is it that you do then?

Yes, so my role, I'm what we call resource leader.

So I'm supporting the team and the great experts I have in my team, they are going into the project and helping them to understand what are the environmental risk from that project and also providing all the documentation that the project needs to get approval from the authorities.

So this environmental impact assessment is basically a report that all authorities ask us to deliver to give a permit to build a project.

So that's really important because in that report we need to show that we are able to understand what will be the impact on environment on local communities and that we have really good plan to manage those impacts and make sure that the project will have least negative impact and maybe positive impact also on local community job creation.

And we try more and more to look if we can have positive impact on biodiversity or nature.

But that's still challenging.

Yes, yes, I can Understand that.

So you would have as like projects could span from as you said, oil and gas to renewables, to wind to solar, everything.

And look at the environmental impacts of the project.

Yes.

So on renewable is mostly offshore wind projects.

In Equinox we have some solar projects, but that delivers through what we call some platform.

So we are not our self building solar project, but we are investing in company or company are part of Equinor in a way that are developing those projects themselves.

So for renewable project, my team is mostly spotting wind, offshore wind projects.

Okay.

Yes.

Right.

You have stayed for a long time.

So what is it that makes you most excited about this job?

And on the other hand, what keeps you up at night if anything?

Yeah.

Yes, on the rewarding part.

And what is the most exciting?

I think like many colleagues, working in a company like Equinor is actually the scale.

Because working for a large energy company, you work on something that really matters for society.

Energy is really at the core of how our societies are functioning.

So we say in Equinox that every day we produce energy that impacts 170 million people.

And so you're like, wow, what I do every day matters.

And I think that's a good give really meaning.

And then the second part that I find really rewarding is the colleagues and the mindsets.

So I do not have myself a technical background, but since I joined the company, I've been really impressed by the innovation mindset, the willingness to find industrial solution, to build projects that actually shaping the future energy system.

So that I find really fascinating.

And that gives me a lot of hope because that's exactly those type of competencies and mindsets we need to build a greener future.

So I really enjoy working with that type of competence and mindset.

And then on the challenging part, especially after I've been working this field for so many years now, I just feel we're still stuck in that dilemma between sustainability on one hand and profitability.

So we really see at project level, when we try to recommend to invest in another technology or design that will cost more, but will have less impact on environment or climate, it's really difficult.

And in country like Norway, where you have high CO2 tax for example, that really help us.

It creates incentives to invest in measure to improve energy efficiency or reduce carbon emissions.

But you do not have those incentives everywhere.

And even you know, now it's only about climate and GHG emission.

But there are other environmental impact that we currently we do not have the system to factor that in in our investment decision.

So that I find really challenging and that's at a project level.

But you have the same discussion at the strategy level.

Right where we are.

We are challenged as a company of moving sometimes too fast and not being profitable enough for our investors.

So this constantly opposition between sustainability and profitability is what I find really challenging because in a way you just feel our economic system is not fit for purpose.

So we want to build a future that is respectful of the boundary of our planet and just the economic system is not allowing us to go in that direction.

So that's frustrating.

Yeah.

Do you think what is missing then?

Is it political, more political incentives?

Yeah, I guess it's political incentive.

But now we see that government are really struggling with, you know, of having the budget to support the green shift.

So it's.

I think this is a, you know, we think a lot about building the future on the more of the technology we need.

But I think it's actually more innovation on the economical side that we need.

We need to think differently about the boundary we have and the fact that our economy is based also on natural resources that have limits as well.

And that we need to rethink the way we measure how we deliver what is economical growth and what is actually driving progress for our societies.

And that's a really big task.

But I think without that we will keep having that dilemma between sustainability on one hand and profitability.

Yeah, I think you're right.

So I recently, or it's maybe a year ago, it's a while back, I shared something on LinkedIn that was kind of the basis for this season and I've been thinking a lot about it and I imagined a future where energy companies aren't just following the green transition, they're actually leading it.

And they have completely transformed themselves and.

Showing the world how it's done.

So what I'm really curious about your thoughts on this.

Do you think it's possible can we really turn these big ships around, do you think?

And actually your vision I don't think is really far away from Equinox vision or ambition because we are a company that is 50 years old and I think our management and all the employees are really aware that if you want to be there in 50 years from now, you really need to take that leading role in the United transition.

So I think that's.

We have an energy transition plan with targets to describe the way to get there.

But the challenge is more okay.

Actually delivering on that vision and we see that it's challenging.

And I think there are two main challenge.

One is what I touched upon in the previous question is on this profitability and the fact that we come from an industry where oil and gas have been really profitable.

And then you move to another type of industry where we should expect lower margin and this will have impact, this will have impact on our investor, private investor, but also the Norwegian state which is an Investor in Equinor.

67% shareholders today.

So that lower margin discussion actually has repercussion also not only in Equinor, but the oil industry and even the Norwegian economy on the long term.

So that's difficult.

One of the challenge of why we can, you know, this vision will be difficult to implement even if I think that's where we all want to go.

And the second aspect, whether we can be leading as a company is actually are we managing to be competitive in comparison to peers?

Because we know very well what we do on oil and gas.

But then when you move to new market market or new type of business like renewables, which is our competitor, are quite different, maybe smaller, maybe closer to their customers and different type of strengths you need to have to really be leading in that market.

But that's a challenge we are aware of and working on it.

So I think that one is maybe easier to solve than the previous one.

But so just to say I think the vision is there and we really hope we can take that leading role and really that's the future for the company on the long term.

And now it's about making it happen on a day by day basis.

And that's not an easy task.

Yeah.

What kind of gets you a little bit like down is that you read the numbers and that I just read before now trying to read up on what is the status at the moment.

And still it's more than 99% of the energy that Equinor delivers is fossil oil and gas.

So it.

It seems that we're kind of pushing this.

Okay.

The, the vision is there.

I really believe that.

But like the time gets shorter and shorter.

Yeah, yeah.

No, and I, and I think that's we.

How we feel internally as well.

And, and we feel even.

We are now coming back a bit now.

We were maybe more ambitious 18 months ago and it's not again it's not about ambition but it's about, you know, actually finding those projects that are profitable.

Because a clear message from our management is that yes, we have the ambition to transition, but we need to Invest in renewable project that will be profitable.

And that's back to my point about, you know, profitability and sustainability dilemma.

And you know, it's.

I think this dilemma we see is actually not only us as a company, right?

The full society around us, we are not moving fast enough.

And we see that some of the support scheme from some of the governments are being stopped or withdrawn because there's need for reallocate some of the budget to other important expenses for the government as well.

So it's kind of vicious circle, right, where we need to have some governmental support to mature some technology on offshore wind or hydrogen or carbon capture and storage and then the government are not able to provide that support.

So then that's also decrease the profitability of the business case for our project.

And then everything is slowed down.

And the problem is if you don't develop those projects, then you are not able to capture the economy of scale and really try out new technologies.

So everything takes more time than expected.

And I think everybody believe, or most of us believe that it's just a question of time, right?

That it's just a delay.

But it's pretty frustrating when you know that we need those technology, we know how to do it.

It's just that the timing now is not, is not right.

And that's personally quite frustrating me because I know in 10 years from now we'll be oh, we need to speed up, speed up, speed up and what have we done in those 10 years?

So I think that's what is frustrating, but it's not.

I don't think that's an equinox only challenge is a broader societal challenge.

And then what is important also to convey is that those projects takes really long time.

So developing an offshore wind project take more than 10 years.

So now we are going, actually now we are going to start three large projects, one in Poland, one in the UK, one in the US and it's all together, I think it's more than 400 turbines that are going to be put at sea.

So it's not that we are not doing anything, but first in comparison to the full production, it's limited of what the company produce.

And then secondly, it also takes really long time before you scale up.

So I understand the frustration, but I think it's important to realize that it's not because the ambition is not there, but it's more that the implementation and delivering on that ambition takes more time than than we thought due to market and context and regulatory framework around us.

That is a bit challenging now.

Yes, so on that note, then when we all feel this time pressure when it comes to climate change, especially then how do you personally deal with that when you're working in a company that still has this strong type to oil and gas?

And how do you also think that your colleagues are dealing with this?

Yeah, and I think, you know, everybody has his own way of dealing with it.

And so I speak mostly for myself and I see that, you know, someday you really believe that through my role I am a change agent and I'm really building a future.

And other day I just feel, no, I'm just part of the problem and that's how it is.

So, you know, I can even not say that I have a really stable perception of myself on that discussion.

But I think, you know, it's also actually you have the same type of dilemma as an individual, right?

I have my family in France.

I need to take flights several times a year to see them.

And each time I book those flights I'm like, well, you know, I know that is not really exactly the best way to contribute to solve that climate challenge.

So you have that individual dilemma that I actually feel also in my role.

And then what we see is actually there is really a need to be much less on this division between bad and good guys because I don't think that really helps.

And we'll need all of that competence and that innovation mindset I mentioned earlier to build and find solution to those complex, both technological but also socioeconomic challenge we have ahead of us.

So I really, you know, don't like to or really would like to let all colleagues and we instead of feeling, okay, I'm part of the good camp or the bad camp, that actually we just feel together we try to solve a challenge and improve on the short term and then on the longer term and you see that, you know, on the short term it's also, well, yes, we are working with oil and gas project, but you can do a lot to try to minimize emission from those projects and try to push to keep improving and that yes, it's oil and gas, but you try to do it, you know, in the best manner possible.

So there is possibility to do it on the short term improvement even if you are working with oil and gas to keep that mindset thinking, okay, we need to think long term and think about how we can make those project greener and then also obviously keep pushing for new technology and low carbon technologies.

But I also think that how employee perceives themselves is really influenced by the external context.

And maybe two years ago if we're working on an oil and gas project, we'll feel, oh, I'm part of the bad camp in comparison to my colleagues in renewable.

And then came the war in Ukraine and then suddenly Equinox is the main provider for gas to Europe.

And working on the gas project, you are saving Europe, allowing Europe to have gas, to continue having industrial activity and really playing a role in this geopolitical context around us.

So then suddenly the perception of yourself gets a bit different and you get more proud of what you do every day.

So just also back to that point that having those good than bad camp, I think it's really not helpful in actually really going all together into using our resource and our, you know, our motivation to build a future energy system that will be greener and help, you know, society to thrive going forward.

Yes, I 100% agree when it comes to the not seeing the black or white and good guys, bad guys.

But I wonder, because I thought when I started this season that, oh, this will be really interesting.

Easy.

Not easy, but it turned out to be harder than I thought to kind of have like talk to people from different perspectives and people outside, inside.

And I'm sure that a lot of people working inside what I call the climate or sustainability bubble would say that you should just stop or you should just leave, you shouldn't be there.

But I have kind of changed my mind a little bit when it comes to how I think that we can meet this challenge.

So what I'm wondering.

Long winded intro to the question, but what I'm wondering is how does Equinor take care of the people who are really ambitious and want to change, speed things up and want to change things because I had people on the podcast who left the industry, you know, Equinor, that told me that, that things are not moving fast enough.

And I think I can do better somewhere else.

I think I can have a bigger impact somewhere else.

And I think if, if we lose all these really ambitious people from the inside, then that doesn't serve the purpose.

So what does the company do to kind of take care of that ambition and that want to change?

Yeah.

So I think what the company do is that there is a high level of openness.

So, you know, we have intranet social media where you are really free to express, express your opinion and disagree.

And several of our colleagues are really open on that.

They disagree on the way the strategy is moving towards or the pace of the transition.

But you have also colleague think that we are going too fast on that Internet, you have different perspective.

And then we have also, I mean we have seen colleagues actually joining some NGO activists demonstrating and saying that they are equinor employee and the company is open to that, saying that well of course everybody is free to have his opinion and to be open about those.

So there's this kind of openness and then there's a lot of push internally to build career across rights.

So if you used to work with exploration activities that you move to renewables or that you.

So there's really this willingness to use all competence and across and build bridges and keep building competence.

That's also I think help people who felt that they were not maybe based on their education and previous experience, they didn't have that opportunity to really push for that agenda.

This is what they really care about then to move to a renewable project and really be in the driving seat there.

But that's, I mean in a way that's it.

And the strategy as a company is not.

Cannot be really influenced by I will say, you know, a group of employees that we feel that we need to do much more.

So then it's up to us employees that feel that through our job we really on the day to day basis push for improvement.

And I can really understand for some previous colleagues feeling well, I don't feel I have the impact I could have somewhere else.

So I'm leaving.

That's again, I guess it's kind of individual call and also based on where you see your strengths.

You know some I think that I can be quite convincing in an environment where maybe my opinion is not the.

One of the.

Of the majority.

And I feel I like those type of environments.

But maybe for some other people it's, it's getting too frustrating and there's too little impact at the end of the day.

So I think each of us need to find in this transition, this transformation, each of us need to find this place what's where you feel you can actually make a change.

And that is really individual, I guess.

Yes, it is.

I think you're right.

So is there any really promising or like exciting technology or innovation happening right now that really gets you excited about the future?

But I think for me we will not manage to decarbonize our full energy system.

So we need a solution to remove the CO2 at least for some years.

So I really believe in that and I think the competence from our industry is really needed there.

And I think Equinox is a good back your experience with that until now.

But of course you know this, at the end of the day we should stop emitting it instead of finding a space to put our emissions.

So I understand that this is not the solution on the long term, but I think from a technology perspective is quite interesting and quite promising.

So for example, now we are working in my team supporting a project.

It's a pipeline that should take emission from Europe and then sending the CO2 and storing it in Norway.

And I think this is a fascinating project for me.

If we manage actually to capture those emissions in Europe from factories there and then send the CO2 and store it under the ground.

In a way I think that's exciting.

But I understand also some other who feel that this technology, it's a bit for the oil and gas industry to gain more time.

But again, I don't think it's not for the oil and gas industry, it's for our societies because we are so stuck in a model where we actually emit a lot of CO2 that we need to find solution to manage those emission quite rapidly now.

So that's where I am quite optimistic.

And also generally speaking I think there are a lot of technology maybe we don't know about today.

So you know, all the research I'm really pro looking at different new technology and also new way of doing because I think the problem is that energy consumption is really linked to our consumption.

Right?

So we need to think differently about how we live and how we consume, how we move ourselves and so on and all innovation in those different space will really help us to reduce the energy we use and so the emission we associated with it.

So we need a lot of new innovative thinking and I think there are a lot of it, but we need to continue and for that being optimistic and really seeing that we need to find new solutions is really important because you can quickly be quite depressed saying well in any case we never, you know, reach those 1.5 degree target or so what's the point?

We can just keep continuing as it is for now and trying to maximize the value for on the short term and that's it.

So that's, I think the worst.

We should really avoid getting there and should keep looking for a way that will be less emission intensive going forward.

Yes, I think you're lucky because you're so close to all the innovation, like seeing all the.

If you feel like that when you're inside Equinor and I think you probably do that there's a lot of R and D happening and I can just imagine that that would make you feel quite optimistic as well because that, you.

Know that things is constantly evolving when.

It comes to ccs, for instance.

Yes, yes, no, definitely.

And then again, you know, one thing is technological innovation and then we need to be much more creative on how we work with partner with governments to make those more economical innovation as well.

So we haven't found really, you know, one of the challenge for Hydrogen project or CCS now is that we are like, well, we don't have customers.

How come we don't have customers?

There are a lot of people emitting CO2, so we should find those customers.

But the economic incentive again is not there.

So this is where I think we need to be much more creative with the different stakeholders, government, but also, you know, industry partners, we are competitors, but we should maybe do things more together to, you know, actually make some of those project less costly so that we can move ahead quicker with them.

So I think there is a lot of creativity required beyond technology.

Yes, and that's really important as well.

And I think also openness and I think you're open.

But if I could have one request.

I would wish for more information about what is happening actually.

And for instance, when it comes to carbon capture and storage, I think that the majority of the public aren't really aware of what it actually is.

And it's very easy, as you said, to jump to that.

That's the kind of, that narrative that CCS is for the oil and gas industries to keep on going as before.

But just you saying that we, of course we know that we have to stop emitting.

It's not that it's for a transition and also for other applications as well, I think.

So even more information out to the public I think is important.

Yeah, but and that's a challenge.

I think as we see the climate change happening, you know, you, I think both NGOs and the general public are getting more and more impatient and that's completely right.

And that the right attitude to have this impatient and saying, well, we don't have the time to listen to all this argument and to take, you know, so there's something about.

And that's something we'll have to work with again as a society in the years to come because I can really see that the frustration will get higher and higher because we see that climate change is happening, having impact and impacting life in many places around us.

At the same time, the one that should help transitioning through technology innovation.

Projects on the ground are really delayed for many reasons and the context around us.

And so you have a clash here.

And so I think the work you are doing now trying to build bridges will be even more important in the next 10 years.

Because I think that in a way those two timelines are not aligned at all.

We take a lot of time to develop solution and climate change happening, creating lots of frustration and need for action today.

And here we have a gap that is really difficult to bridge.

The communication is really crucial.

Communication and also I think having a common goal to tell ourselves, okay, actually we are all working toward that common goal as a society because then it helps, then you build trust.

Then you're like, okay, those guys, I need time.

But that's actually we are going the same direction instead.

Instead of feeling that, well, we say a lot of things, but we go in the opposite direction, which is not the reality, at least how I feel it.

But it's just the timing takes much more time than we hope.

Yes, I think you're right.

So we are.

I have to wrap up soon, but one last question.

If you had a magic wand, what changes would you love to see happen in the next few years to really move us towards a low carbon future faster?

Yeah, and I think I touched upon it, but for me that's really this change of collaboration between the different actors.

And we need, I think, to be much better at working together.

Policymakers, industry and I think civil society, as you know, one team working toward a common goal.

And I think if we, if we are much better at doing that together, I think we can move faster, but challenging.

But you know, that's why each of us, it's, we have a role to play there and that gives me a lot of motivation.

Yes, one team working towards a common goal.

I think that's a good way to end it.

Thank you so much for your time and wishing you all the luck in your really, really important job.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thanks a lot.

This episode makes me think about so many things related to the energy industry, the transition we're going through, the speed.

Or the lack of speed, all the.

Frustrations and challenges felt by everyone.

But I think, I think what stands out to me is this thing that I keep coming back to.

We have to stop thinking in terms.

Of good guys versus bad guys.

It's absolutely not doing any good for anyone.

And we as individuals have to figure.

Out for ourselves where the place is.

That we can move the needle the most.

That could just as well be inside a company working on the trans transition away from fossil fuels.

And it's in the world itself a transition is exactly that, a transition.

Thank you so much, Natasha, for being so open about both the upsides and downsides, the challenges as well as the rewards.

And I'm so, so happy that passionate people like you are working on this.

In the coming episodes, we will have so many more interesting guests to shine more light on this topic from many, many different angles.

I'm really looking forward to sharing those with you, but for now, thank you so much for tuning in.

Take care.

And I will be back.