Listen to the song

1. YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w6apA_LbOE
2. Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/1cgesvTA9wgm2x6a6AEjnn?si=03d52c468f934754
3. Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/overture/313221988
4. Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B0027OQ2ZY?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_JV1c672eQzcyAHeWfT24LjGtR&trackAsin=B0027OQ3AI

Other links

1. “New World” by Björk
2. YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZt8eic_KNw
3. Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/6tgLIvZaal11lbuSXv48BD?si=3d0ba049609f4695
4. Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/new-world/313222042
5. Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B0027OQ2ZY?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_TH5hZ5UARlYNOpFbIQiGCRM3g&trackAsin=B0027OM5ZK
6. “The Carnival of Venice” with Wynton Marsalis - https://youtu.be/q0V4qPEK8jQ

Key takeaways

1. Trist and Elaine discuss “Overture,” a movie soundtrack composed by Björk, focusing on the arrangement and textural choices she made in this all-brass arrangement
2. This episode delves into how Björk’s "Overture" uses repeated themes, pedal tones, and layering to build and resolve tension, creating a captivating listening experience
3. In the Mailbag segment, Trist and Elaine discuss the concept of setting a personal limit on recording takes, balancing perfectionism with practicality, and how technology has changed the approach to music production

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist!

Elaine: What do we have this week?

Trist: A little something different this week, Elaine.

Trist: Our first entry, without lyrics and

Elaine: Hmm.

Trist: I believe I'm not positive, but I believe also our first music

Trist: from a film at least made expressly for use in a film.

Elaine: Oh, okay.

Elaine: Cool. I think so as well.

Trist: Oddly enough, both of those things, don't necessarily

Trist: correlate with the artist who we might think of because the

Trist: artist is Björk.

Elaine: Oh,

Trist: So

Elaine: Björk.

Trist: if you know anything

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: about Björk, one of the first

Trist: things you think of maybe is her

Trist: unusual voice, a very unique

Trist: voice.

Trist: Um, and the fact that she is a singer, and yet we're going to

Trist: feature music from a movie and doesn't have any singing in it.

Elaine: Interesting.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: I do, think of Björk - and I've

Elaine: actually not really listened to

Elaine: a whole lot of her music, but

Elaine: from everything that I've read,

Elaine: most people think maybe she's a

Elaine: bit eccentric.

Elaine: She definitely has a different sense of style.

Elaine: And that's really where I see, a

Elaine: lot of photos of her in

Elaine: particular styles that are

Elaine: maybe, outside of the center

Elaine: norm, but that makes her really

Elaine: interesting.

Trist: Definitely.

Elaine: Okay. Well, what song are we listening to?

Trist: Well, this is an overture.

Trist: It's literally just titled "Overture," an

Elaine: Hmm.

Trist: instrumental piece that, like an overture in any work, is at the

Trist: beginning of the movie.

Trist: At least I assume.

Trist: Full disclosure: I've not seen this movie.

Trist: "Dancer in the Dark," a movie she actually acted in.

Trist: It's on my list.

Trist: I'm going to see it someday.

Trist: I suppose in some ways it might have helped this podcast, but

Trist: I'm actually kind of glad I didn't see it because I don't

Trist: have any context.

Trist: I can just listen to the music

Trist: and see what things come to my

Trist: brain.

Trist: It's like a song that you hear

Trist: before you see a music video for

Trist: it.

Trist: And then when you see a music

Trist: video, you have attachment to

Trist: what maybe someone intended it

Trist: to mean.

Trist: And you stop being creative in

Trist: your brain and you only think of

Trist: the video.

Trist: So I guess I'm glad at this

Trist: point that I haven't seen it

Trist: yet.

Elaine: Oh, okay.

Elaine: Cool. So we're going to drop the links to this particular track

Elaine: in the show notes.

Elaine: But before we pause, can you give us a reminder of how we

Elaine: should be listening to music?

Trist: Absolutely. Especially on this,

Trist: I think, this piece of music is

Trist: so dynamic.

Trist: I just love the way it's recorded and how it sounds.

Trist: please, if you are able again,

Trist: we're just happy to have you

Trist: regardless.

Trist: But if you are able, get

Trist: yourself in the best listening

Trist: environment.

Trist: Find the quiet room, find the

Trist: better headphones, find the

Trist: better stereo, whatever it

Trist: takes.

Trist: if you have the ability to do

Trist: so, give yourself a treat and

Trist: improve your listening for this

Trist: one.

Elaine: Okay, awesome.

Elaine: So we're going to take a pause and we'll be right back.

Elaine: And we're back.

Elaine: Ooh, that

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: was an interesting listen.

Elaine: I'm really curious to hear what you have to say about this.

Elaine: And why did you choose this particular piece?

Trist: I like that this takes you on a journey.

Trist: I find it difficult myself, even as someone who does something

Trist: like this or has taught music or is a professional musician.

Trist: It's more difficult to speak

Trist: about instrumental music, I

Trist: think.

Trist: Even in preparing for the

Trist: podcast, I always go right to

Trist: what the lyrics are and how they

Trist: relate.

Trist: At some point the lyric comes into play.

Trist: So I liked this one because I liked that it didn't have a

Trist: lyric, and I liked that it still really went somewhere and lets

Trist: your imagination put into play what this could be for.

Trist: You have the title Overture, so you understand that it's the

Trist: beginning of a work, and maybe these are themes that happen

Trist: throughout the piece, etc.,

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: you know, which is more traditional in like a musical,

Trist: we'll have little snippets of all the songs that you're about

Trist: to hear in the musical, etc..

Elaine: Exactly.

Trist: I don't

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: think it's quite that, but the music does appear again.

Trist: And on the album itself, the album closes with a piece of

Trist: music that is this same music, but also Björk singing over

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: it. So there is a lyric.

Elaine: Interesting. Yeah. I don't know if I have problems talking about

Elaine: something that has no lyrics.

Elaine: It definitely is different.

Elaine: The experience of listening to this was very interesting to me.

Elaine: I hit, maybe somewhere around like 1:45, 2 minutes and I could

Elaine: feel the tension in

Trist: Um.

Elaine: my shoulders.

Elaine: I ended up closing my eyes at a

Elaine: certain point in time while

Elaine: listening to it, just so I could

Elaine: listen harder.

Elaine: Like, I could listen more closely when my eyes closed.

Elaine: And it was interesting because

Elaine: there was a certain type of

Elaine: tension.

Elaine: I listened to the track multiple

Elaine: times to figure out where that

Elaine: tension was coming from, and

Elaine: just about the two minute mark,

Elaine: it completely releases you from

Elaine: that tension and it goes to a

Elaine: quieter place.

Elaine: And that was absolutely

Elaine: fascinating to me from a

Elaine: composition perspective.

Elaine: And so, you know, I listened to the entire track, went back to

Elaine: the beginning and tried to listen for where that tension

Elaine: was coming from.

Elaine: Tell me what you heard from that perspective.

Trist: Well, what I like about that is

Trist: the tension that builds, even as

Trist: you hear the theme several

Trist: times.

Trist: The da da da da da da da da da.

Trist: It does that phrase many times.

Trist: it builds dynamically, but almost every time it's met.

Trist: Bu da da da da.

Trist: Right on that.

Trist: There's a close harmony.

Trist: There's a close second.

Trist: I think the harmony isn't resolved there.

Trist: There's tension.

Trist: There's crunchiness.

Trist: I guess you could

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: call it.

Trist: so it feels like you're heading

Trist: to a thing that's going to

Trist: resolve.

Trist: And when it gets to the main thing, instead of being a nice

Trist: open, it's tight.

Trist: And so it doesn't give you that right away.

Trist: I like how it does that every

Trist: time it builds, that tension is

Trist: there and then it releases after

Trist: that.

Trist: But right where you think it might be open, there's a rub

Trist: there, I love it.

Elaine: Yeah. And I wrote that down as positive dissonance

Trist: Uh,

Elaine: in

Trist: yeah.

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: that.

Elaine: And it wasn't out of place, Like, there are certain types of

Elaine: musical dissonances that you're like, oh man, that's not even in

Elaine: the same key.

Elaine: And this one, it was very subtle

Elaine: because it was something that I

Elaine: think our brains understand in

Elaine: terms of that type of

Elaine: dissonance.

Elaine: One of the things that I was hearing in the music was a

Elaine: single note that was just repeated over and over again,

Elaine: and it just held that tension.

Elaine: It created that tension because the music was moving around it.

Elaine: And as the melody and other parts of the music were moving

Elaine: around it, it created tension in that moment, and it just kept on

Elaine: going for quite some time.

Elaine: I mean, probably 20s or

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: more.

Trist: Yeah, that's a great concept

Trist: that can be used very effective

Trist: that way.

Trist: Usually called a pedal tone.

Trist: Sometimes I guess that could happen in the middle of a

Trist: harmony, but usually more frequently, that kind of happens

Trist: toward the bottom where

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: you just have this thing, no matter what the chords change,

Trist: that note just stays there.

Trist: And yeah, it does create tension

Trist: because there's this thing that

Trist: isn't moving while these other

Trist: stuff is.

Trist: And you're right, sometimes all the harmony kind of lines up

Trist: with that pedal tone.

Trist: And then sometimes, the pedal

Trist: tone is the weird note, if you

Trist: will.

Elaine: Yeah, that reminds me of this piece.

Elaine: I can't even remember what it

Elaine: was, but it was a whole bunch of

Elaine: hallelujahs.

Elaine: And I, as an alto one, I was

Elaine: just singing that D the entire

Elaine: piece.

Elaine: It was like a three and a half minute piece, and I was

Trist: Ah,

Elaine: just holding

Trist: yes.

Elaine: a D

Trist: Well, you're an alto.

Trist: So that's

Elaine: the

Trist: that's

Elaine: curse

Trist: your

Elaine: of

Trist: lot

Elaine: an

Trist: in

Elaine: alto.

Trist: life when

Elaine: I

Trist: you do that.

Elaine: shifted

Trist: Anyway.

Elaine: to

Trist: Sing the

Elaine: Soprano

Trist: same note.

Elaine: 2 afterwards.

Elaine: But

Trist: Ah.

Elaine: but yeah, the curse of the alto, right?

Elaine: Um,

Trist: Right.

Elaine: but similar kind of thing where that one note, the entire piece

Elaine: revolved around that one note.

Elaine: Sometimes it was the root, sometimes it was the fifth, and

Elaine: sometimes it wasn't even in the chord at all.

Elaine: And it created some kind of tension there because it was a

Elaine: fourth or something.

Trist: Yeah. Just beautiful.

Trist: I think again sometimes in our

Trist: podcast there's like the stuff

Trist: that we dive into and pick

Trist: apart.

Trist: And sometimes I'm literally

Trist: bringing it up because I just

Trist: think it's beautiful and it's an

Trist: incredible listen.

Trist: And I think it's magical that it

Trist: doesn't take a lyric to move you

Trist: in any direction, like just in a

Trist: calm place, just listening to

Trist: this and the way that it builds,

Trist: the way the arrangement builds,

Trist: the way the dynamics of it

Trist: build.

Trist: And all brass instruments too.

Trist: Uh, the way that they tune and

Trist: work together and how quiet and

Trist: how big they can get, is all

Trist: captured in this same little

Trist: repeated theme.

Trist: Oh, and speaking of the arrangement, Vince Mendoza, an

Trist: incredible writer and arranger.

Trist: He might have even helped compose this, but definitely the

Trist: arranger of this Vince Mendoza.

Trist: Look him up.

Trist: You've probably heard music of his before.

Trist: He's written and arranged for all kinds of people.

Trist: Matter of fact, on the Manhattan

Trist: Transfer album we did called

Trist: "50" that has the orchestral

Trist: arrangements.

Trist: He did two of them for us.

Elaine: Hmm.

Trist: So great guy, amazing musician.

Elaine: Yeah. Let's go back to the instrumentation.

Elaine: You were talking about brass, and I had written down it's all

Elaine: brass plus timpani.

Elaine: I just wanted to make sure that, it was all brass.

Elaine: But I find it interesting that

Elaine: brass was chosen for this

Elaine: particular piece versus a full

Elaine: orchestra.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: And I am curious what you think

Elaine: about that, because I have some

Elaine: thoughts.

Trist: Hmm. nothing too particular

Trist: other than just the choice of

Trist: color.

Trist: You're composing this, you're thinking, oh, what do I want the

Trist: sound to be?

Trist: I want it to be this rich, full sound.

Trist: Do I want, you could have string

Trist: orchestra play all of this and

Trist: play with dynamics and play

Trist: beautifully and still get some

Trist: effect.

Trist: I just don't know if it'd be the same.

Trist: And it's hard to tell if when this is being composed, if you

Trist: start out saying, I want this to be all brass, or if you create

Trist: some music and say, oh, what instruments do I want here?

Trist: I'd be curious.

Trist: If I ever meet him again, I'm gonna ask him that.

Trist: I don't know what do you think?

Trist: I think just a texture at some point said, "Oh, I could do a

Trist: lot dynamically with this.

Trist: And I love the sound of this.

Trist: So I'm going to write these this way and voice it this way and

Trist: have these chords work this

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: way, because it'll sound great

Trist: in brass instruments" is my

Trist: guess.

Elaine: Definitely I think the textural aspect of it is a big part of

Elaine: it, but one thing I was thinking about is that, brass instruments

Elaine: are inherently breath instruments because of the way

Elaine: that they're played.

Trist: Oh yeah.

Elaine: And.

Trist: And you can hear when you listen in your good listening

Trist: environment with your good headphones that I recommended.

Trist: You can hear the breaths.

Elaine: Yeah. And I think that's

Elaine: actually important because, you

Elaine: know, one of the challenges of

Elaine: playing stringed instruments

Elaine: versus, any kind of breath instrument

Elaine: is that you have to sometimes

Elaine: make a string instrument

Elaine: sound like a breath instrument.

Trist: Mhm. Yeah.

Elaine: It's so easy just, between the

Elaine: bowing that you have on the

Elaine: string instruments or whatever,

Elaine: plucking - it's just very

Elaine: mechanical, right?

Elaine: It's kind of the same thing with

Elaine: piano where you're playing this

Elaine: percussion instrument.

Elaine: How do you make the piano breathe?

Elaine: And in jazz, it's really, really important.

Elaine: But I think in something like this where you have breath

Elaine: instruments, in some ways there is something that our ears are

Elaine: attuned to that

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: makes it seem more organic

Elaine: because it is a breath

Elaine: instrument.

Elaine: And again, you'll hear the same

Elaine: thing with MIDI instruments,

Elaine: right?

Elaine: And part of the reason maybe why brass sounds so weird in these

Elaine: more digital spaces is that we don't necessarily think about

Elaine: the importance of breath until

Trist: Right.

Elaine: we hear something live, and then realize that breathing is such a

Elaine: big part of playing brass instruments and even, arranging

Elaine: for brass instruments.

Elaine: Same thing.

Elaine: As you know, you and I both come

Elaine: from choral backgrounds, and so

Elaine: you know that you need to figure

Elaine: out where is everyone going to

Elaine: breathe, or

Trist: That's really interesting.

Elaine: you have

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: a large group and you're like, okay, we're just going

Trist: Right.

Elaine: to do catch breaths here.

Trist: I

Elaine: Right.

Trist: think a place that shows up is

Trist: in, some saxophone players and

Trist: some brass players who can

Trist: circular breathe

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: where they take in enough air.

Trist: And because of the way that the instrument is played, you can

Trist: have a reserve of air that's coming out that you saved up,

Trist: that's basically in your mouth.

Trist: And

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: then you can breathe in your nose because there's a reservoir

Trist: created that you couldn't

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: do when you sing because

Elaine: Right.

Trist: it's just all open.

Trist: So because there's this pressure

Trist: keeping some amount of air in

Trist: your mouth.

Trist: You can breathe up through your

Trist: nose while still playing the

Trist: instrument, and the sound never

Trist: breaks.

Elaine: Right.

Trist: that's why the audience has that effect.

Trist: Because even if you haven't pointed it out, even if the

Trist: instrumentalist doesn't say, here's this thing that I'm about

Trist: to do when they just do it.

Trist: I'd never thought about it that way.

Trist: The reason why it it gets your attention is because we're

Trist: waiting for that breath.

Trist: We didn't even notice that they were doing it for the whole rest

Trist: of the concert.

Trist: But then all of a sudden, when they do the circular breathing,

Trist: all of a sudden your brain starts to pick up.

Trist: Wait a minute.

Trist: It's been like a minute now.

Trist: Okay, now it's two minutes and they're still just playing.

Trist: And

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: it hasn't.

Trist: The sound hasn't broken.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Uh, it's interesting how that subconsciously, it takes you a

Trist: second to realize, oh, I'm feeling this kind of odd

Trist: discomfort because I haven't heard a breath yet.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: Um, a famous example I can think of recorded is The Carnival of

Trist: Venice by Wynton Marsalis.

Trist: He

Elaine: Hmm.

Trist: plays the entire thing like on basically one breath.

Trist: We'll put that link in the show notes also.

Elaine: Well, yeah.

Elaine: So, going back to the whole concept of the sense of humanity

Elaine: or the sense of breath that comes with it, I think that

Elaine: there is a very close linkage that we have between breath and

Elaine: living and, life itself.

Elaine: And I think that that kind of fits into the sense of intimacy

Elaine: that this particular piece has.

Elaine: It is a quiet piece, but it also has tension in it.

Elaine: And that tension, again, comes from the arrangement, but also I

Elaine: think where the instruments drop in and drop out.

Elaine: You referenced it briefly before, but can you talk a

Elaine: little bit about layering?

Trist: I think obviously it's used here to help with the dynamics, so

Trist: when we need the bigger sections, you just add it's as

Trist: simple as that.

Trist: To me, layering here is simply to add sound.

Trist: yeah.

Trist: You can play the instrument louder, but then also if you add

Trist: more of them creates the dynamics wanted as well.

Elaine: And I think also, jumping on

Elaine: that you were talking about,

Elaine: adding sound, but there's also

Elaine: the subtraction of sound as

Elaine: well.

Elaine: And

Trist: Um.

Elaine: I think we see this in choral music or in vocal music a lot.

Elaine: When people drop really quickly

Elaine: to piano or also drop to unison,

Elaine: that's something that we hear a

Elaine: lot where we're like, ooh,

Elaine: right,

Trist: Yep.

Elaine: there's something about that that really brings us to a place

Elaine: of focus in

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: a way.

Elaine: And so at that two minute mark, which is really where I see a

Elaine: lot of the tension disappearing.

Elaine: And right about that two minute

Elaine: mark, it drops to just two

Elaine: instruments.

Elaine: And that to me was like, whew.

Elaine: Okay,

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: well, now we have something that doesn't sound as tense.

Elaine: And now we're going to begin to build on top of it again.

Trist: Yeah. now I definitely need to

Trist: watch the movie because I'll be

Trist: curious to see if basically that

Trist: also follows the line of the

Trist: story of the tension of the

Trist: whole movie.

Trist: it's very common, in art of any

Trist: kind, to have that kind of

Trist: building repeated themes,

Trist: tension and release, sometimes

Trist: suddenly, sometimes a slower

Trist: denouement.

Trist: But, now I'm fascinated to see if it kind of follows that not

Trist: only does she sing a lyric at the end, on the top of this, I

Trist: wonder if it does kind of follow the story of the movie.

Trist: I don't know anything about the movie.

Elaine: Yeah, another movie night it sounds like we need

Trist: I

Elaine: to

Trist: think

Elaine: have.

Trist: so, I think so.

Elaine: So let's talk a little bit about the percussion on this, because

Elaine: the choice was to use timpani, which I thought

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: was really interesting.

Elaine: what do you think the role of voiced drums are in this place?

Trist: Well I think it was probably like you said, a great choice

Trist: because easily tunable to fit the sound and I think it just

Trist: fits the timbre.

Trist: They're going for the sound you're going for, to add some

Trist: kind of a rhythmic element Yet not really stick out.

Trist: I actually hadn't really conscientiously thought about it

Trist: until you mentioned it.

Trist: And as soon as you said, I was

Trist: like, oh yeah, there's totally

Trist: timpani there.

Trist: It wasn't in the fore of my mind.

Trist: That's a great utilization of

Trist: it, is that it's not trying to

Trist: get in the way, but just help

Trist: reinforce, some of the sections

Trist: rhythmically.

Elaine: Yeah. And I think Orchestrally, we have a couple of different

Elaine: types of drums.

Elaine: I think those of us who are in

Elaine: pop or rock or whatever, we're

Elaine: not really thinking about

Elaine: timpani.

Elaine: We're thinking about maybe toms,

Elaine: but timpani, because it's such a

Elaine: large drum, first of all, it's

Elaine: voiced and you can tune it, but

Elaine: it also has a really round tone

Elaine: as opposed to some of the other

Elaine: drums that have a sharper

Elaine: attack.

Elaine: And

Trist: Cut

Elaine: so

Trist: through.

Elaine: you

Trist: Right.

Elaine: end up with less of like a high

Elaine: pitched thing, and you end up

Elaine: with a percussion that is a bit

Elaine: lower.

Elaine: And also it resonates so much

Elaine: because again, it's such a large

Elaine: drum.

Elaine: So I think to your point in how it fits within the whole sonic

Elaine: experience that we have here, it is subtle because it isn't a

Elaine: very sharp attack, and it's also resonant because we have tones

Elaine: that last for a lot longer because of the shape and the

Elaine: size of the drum itself.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: You thought we wouldn't have anything to say here?

Trist: really when you very first mentioned it, I hadn't even

Trist: considered them, but absolutely.

Trist: That's how effective they are, is they're not supposed to

Trist: necessarily be standing out, but supporting and fits the tone and

Trist: the vibe of the music.

Elaine: Yeah. Well, any last thoughts on this before we move on?

Trist: Yeah. Just hope you get a chance to, listen again, now that we've

Trist: talked about it a little bit.

Trist: the whole album is pretty cool,

Trist: but definitely listen to the

Trist: last track on the album

Trist: "Selmasongs."

Trist: "New World" is the title of that same music with her lyric and,

Trist: singing on it.

Elaine: Yeah, definitely really interesting.

Elaine: Thank you for introducing it to us.

Trist: Mmhm!

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: So with that let's transition into our next segment, which is.

Trist: Mail bag, mail bag, mail bag.

Elaine: Okay, so this week's mailbag is from Threads.

Elaine: Once again, you can get ahold of

Elaine: us via Threads or Instagram

Elaine: @themusiciansloupe, L-O-U-P-E,

Elaine: or via email at

Elaine: themusiciansloupe@gmail.com.

Elaine: So please do reach out, we'd love to hear from you and love

Elaine: to hear any of the questions or comments that you have.

Trist: Yeah. It's a good place to let

Trist: us know your thoughts about this

Trist: overture.

Trist: And if you did see the movie,

Trist: its place in it and your

Trist: thoughts about its relevance to

Trist: the movie or any other thoughts

Trist: you have about this, please

Trist: share.

Elaine: Awesome!

Elaine: So let's get into this mailbag.

Elaine: This is from an artist named Western Jaguar, and it comes

Elaine: from August of 2025 on Threads.

Elaine: And the question is, "Anyone

Elaine: else have a self-imposed quote

Elaine: unquote take limit when

Elaine: recording?

Elaine: What I mean is, when you're

Elaine: recording a part, if you can't

Elaine: get it in a certain amount of

Elaine: tries, you scrap it and try

Elaine: something else.

Elaine: I usually sit around four to five takes, and if I can't get

Elaine: it within four to five takes, it's probably too hard for me to

Elaine: recreate if I ever did have to play it again.

Trist: Huh. As my answer always is, it's always "It depends."

Trist: It

Elaine: Okay,

Trist: depends on

Elaine: so

Trist: the individual.

Elaine: tell me more about that.

Trist: Depends on the individual.

Trist: Depends on the music, so a

Trist: self-imposed take limit, to me

Trist: that sounds like a situation

Trist: where you are recording

Trist: yourself.

Trist: I have more limits, if I'm working for somewhere else.

Trist: And time is money, and it's that kind of a studio recording where

Trist: it's like, hey, let's get this as good as possible.

Trist: So it's like, hopefully I've prepared enough or I can read it

Trist: down enough that I can get it as quickly as possible.

Trist: I think that doesn't apply as

Trist: much as when I'm recording

Trist: myself.

Trist: Okay, if it takes me twenty times, either that's fine,

Trist: that's what it took.

Trist: But if it keeps doing that, then it's like, maybe I need to do

Trist: some more preparing.

Trist: Or like this person said, oh yeah, this is just too difficult

Trist: for me to recreate anyway, why am I even doing this?

Trist: So, sometimes also the take limit varies on what part of my

Trist: voice is it in.

Trist: You know, if it's at some extreme limit of my voice, it's

Trist: like, well, there's a limit, because if I exceed the limit,

Trist: I'm not going to be able to finish a song because I'm going

Trist: to blow my voice out.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: So sometimes that's the self-imposed take limit.

Trist: That's also where a producer comes into play saying, okay,

Trist: here's the singer.

Trist: I have to figure out what tools I have.

Trist: I have tools to move notes.

Trist: I have tools to move pitch in different directions.

Trist: If they give me the vibe and the

Trist: feeling that I'm totally going

Trist: for.

Trist: But this one note was a little flat, to me that's the best use

Trist: of these pitch correction tools.

Trist: Like, oh, I got all the feeling,

Trist: I got 99% of the notes are what

Trist: I want.

Trist: If I just have to fix this note, no need for us to sing it ten

Trist: times just to get that one note as in tune as I want it to be.

Elaine: Yeah, that's interesting that

Elaine: you say that, because I know one

Elaine: of the pieces of advice that I

Elaine: got from you was when I was

Elaine: trying to hit something on the

Elaine: extreme low end of my range, you

Elaine: were like, just do it tomorrow

Elaine: morning.

Elaine: There's no reason why you need to do it right now.

Trist: Exactly.

Elaine: Like when you when you record first thing in the morning,

Elaine: you're going to get that extra full step there to be able to.

Elaine: And sure enough you were right.

Elaine: I got that extra half step that I needed to be able to nail it

Elaine: and make it sound really good.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Yeah. It's interesting to think about how things have changed.

Elaine: You were talking about studio

Elaine: time, and when you and I first

Elaine: started out, we didn't have our

Elaine: own studios.

Elaine: It was really hard and really

Elaine: expensive to get your own

Elaine: recording equipment and

Elaine: recording space.

Elaine: So you ended up renting some kind of studio to be able to

Elaine: record your pieces.

Elaine: And that was expensive.

Elaine: So time is money.

Elaine: And at that point in time, you're like, okay, well, I can

Elaine: only do x number of takes to be able to get it right.

Elaine: And otherwise we're just going to have to live with whatever we

Trist: Right.

Elaine: live with.

Elaine: Right?

Elaine: Or it's going to be a more expensive album.

Elaine: But in today's world, a lot more is democratized.

Elaine: You and I are both on really nice mics right now.

Elaine: We have our own home environments and our own digital

Elaine: audio workspaces, right?

Elaine: Where we can do our recording and make it sound really good.

Elaine: A lot of other musicians have

Elaine: access to it right on their

Elaine: laptops.

Elaine: So how do you think our philosophies about recording has

Elaine: changed over time with the more democratized access to these

Elaine: types of technologies?

Trist: Well, yeah, in any of these

Trist: kinds of disciplines, it's going

Trist: to change with the technology

Trist: available.

Trist: Even just the styles of music

Trist: have changed with the technology

Trist: available.

Trist: Even in this kind of a case where you used to have to have,

Trist: "Well, let's have the conversation and make sure that

Trist: we're always speaking perfectly and don't have slip ups."

Trist: And when I can't think of a word

Trist: now, you can just kind of wait a

Trist: little while, then splice that

Trist: together and, maybe you used to

Trist: not be the case, like on a

Trist: podcast.

Trist: I think the knowledge of what you can do changes again when

Trist: you're producing it, even if you're self-producing, you know,

Trist: "Oh, well, again, no need to wear yourself out playing that

Trist: over and over and over or singing that over and over.

Trist: When I've got the essence that I

Trist: can't fake, I've got all of the

Trist: best human things I need out of

Trist: it.

Trist: Now the technology can help me.

Trist: I think that's just evolved over the years even with instruments.

Trist: Um, in a previous episode, we were talking about "Workin' Day

Trist: and Night," all those layers of percussion and brass, you could

Trist: recreate that song pretty close to what it is.

Trist: Just one person could sit on their computer, and dial all

Trist: that stuff up and program it in and recreate all of that thing.

Trist: Granted, those of us who notice

Trist: when it (actually I think

Trist: everybody notices) you would you

Trist: could tell the human difference

Trist: in it.

Trist: But, it could be created a lot less expensively and be about

Trist: 95% of the way there, just as the technology evolved.

Elaine: Yeah. And I think that there's, you know, going back to this

Elaine: question about what the take limit is, I think it really has

Elaine: changed a ton because when you're just recording on your

Elaine: own computer, when you're recording your own parts, you

Elaine: can afford to take as many takes as you want.

Elaine: It really doesn't matter as much because it's just time, right?

Elaine: So I think that leads to a different sort of challenge,

Elaine: because when you're pressed on studio time because of money,

Elaine: you end up making whatever you can with whatever you have.

Elaine: And

Trist: Hmm.

Elaine: as opposed to when you're trying

Elaine: to get everything just right,

Elaine: there's a certain point in time

Elaine: that you hit diminishing

Elaine: returns, and you have to figure

Elaine: that out.

Elaine: So I think that there is a bit

Elaine: of wisdom in there, because you

Elaine: can shoot for, because you can

Elaine: afford to get, that level of

Elaine: perfection.

Elaine: It changes the calculus a little bit.

Trist: Yep. there's some phrase that's

Trist: like, um, "genius comes with a

Trist: brilliant idea and not quite

Trist: enough time."

Elaine: Mm.

Trist: something like that

Elaine: yeah.

Trist: or some, you get the idea.

Trist: sometimes, like if you have all the time in the world, It's just

Trist: you in your room doing it.

Trist: There's no outside force making you do something.

Trist: It's nice to have the freedom and be creative, but I think a

Trist: lot of times art, it helps to have that outside demand.

Trist: There's a producer or there's a money commitment or there's a

Trist: time commitment like, okay, yeah, can you have that song to

Trist: me in one week?

Trist: Like, those deadlines help.

Trist: Sometimes even the person that's asking for it, they really don't

Trist: need it for two weeks.

Trist: But if they put the one week in

Trist: there, a) it gets you on it and

Trist: it just creates, okay, there's a

Trist: drive, We've got to get this

Trist: done.

Trist: I feel like a lot of times the

Trist: stuff gets done better if you

Trist: have that little bit of force

Trist: that you need to be pushing up

Trist: against.

Elaine: Yeah, it's interesting to think

Elaine: about the couple of different

Elaine: motivations that we've talked

Elaine: about.

Elaine: One of them is procrastination and overcoming procrastination.

Elaine: I think the other one is perfectionism, right?

Elaine: How do we overcome perfectionism in our music making?

Elaine: And you were talking about this

Elaine: in a previous episode where we

Elaine: were talking about the

Elaine: difference between live music

Elaine: and recording,

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: especially when it comes to, oh,

Elaine: you know, in live music you make

Elaine: a mistake, and if you obsess

Elaine: about the mistake, then you end

Elaine: up making the next mistake,

Elaine: right?

Trist: Right.

Elaine: Um, and so a big part of live music is just letting it go and

Elaine: saying, okay, you know, I just have to be in this moment right

Elaine: here, right now.

Elaine: Whereas for recorded music we

Elaine: have a different perspective on

Elaine: it.

Elaine: We have the opportunity to fall into or slip into perfectionism.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: You know, I know that you were

Elaine: talking about some of the recent

Elaine: recording experiences that

Elaine: you've had.

Elaine: Can you talk a little bit about

Elaine: where that limit was for your

Elaine: producers and what was

Elaine: sufficient and where you needed

Elaine: to rerecord?

Trist: I think the general vibe I've experienced the most.

Trist: Again, like you said, there's

Trist: the endless perfectionism,

Trist: really trying to tweak something

Trist: perfectly.

Trist: But I think a place where a lot of producers fall is trying to

Trist: be as close to just the live thing as possible.

Trist: The very organic, very human,

Trist: real emotion, real dynamics as

Trist: much of the live as possible,

Trist: with the added benefit of being

Trist: able to then fix it if you need

Trist: to.

Trist: Right.

Trist: So it's kind of the best of both

Trist: worlds where it's like in a live

Trist: performance.

Trist: Yep, that went by.

Trist: Some note was just weird.

Trist: And the more I think about it, there's probably going to be

Trist: some more weird notes.

Trist: But if I just keep going, it's

Trist: fine, no one even notices,

Trist: sometimes, the thing that I

Trist: notice.

Trist: And then because again, in a recorded art, people can

Trist: actually also consume it over and over and over and they can

Trist: go back and listen to it.

Trist: So you, on equal playing field,

Trist: can go back and correct

Trist: something.

Trist: So rather than making everything

Trist: perfect, it's still like, yeah,

Trist: the most egregious offenders I

Trist: guess in terms of notes or a

Trist: lyric or a pitch or a rhythm of

Trist: something, being able to do the

Trist: things that really just bring

Trist: the music down and making it

Trist: better musically.

Trist: and then that's where everybody's line will be

Trist: different is just how much should be corrected.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: So that's that's the thing is, I think everybody has some point

Trist: of like, even if you're going for a very live thing.

Trist: Okay, let's fix these few things.

Trist: It's really great.

Trist: But that sour note there really ruins the line.

Trist: If I just fix that one note, oh that's great.

Trist: Oh, the drummer on that played

Trist: that thing just a little bit

Trist: late.

Trist: If I just move that over a little.

Trist: Ah, now it feels better and it

Trist: doesn't ruin that whole great

Trist: performance.

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: Um, I feel like that's what most

Trist: producers generally are kind of

Trist: going for.

Trist: There are exceptions where it's

Trist: like, no, I want this as clean

Trist: as possible, almost

Trist: unperformable live because I

Trist: just want to create this sonic

Trist: place that's different from

Trist: live.

Trist: And so it depends on what you're after.

Trist: But I feel like that's the most

Trist: frequent thing I encounter is

Trist: trying to capture it like it's

Trist: totally natural.

Trist: And then with the ability to

Trist: kind of just fix little things

Trist: when needed, just because you

Trist: can.

Elaine: Yeah, I'm kind of curious about the overcorrection, because I

Elaine: know that you've pointed out some albums to me where it's

Elaine: been overproduced, and

Trist: Hmm.

Elaine: it sounds a lot faker than the actual thing.

Elaine: Can you talk a little bit about where that limit is?

Trist: Again, that's just different for everybody and depends on the

Trist: kind of music.

Trist: More pop and electronic music,

Trist: the ear accepts a little bit

Trist: more of the super tuned voices,

Trist: because that just goes with the

Trist: electronic sounds that are with

Trist: the voices.

Trist: So

Elaine: Mm.

Trist: it kind of fits the vibe of the

Trist: sonic thing that you're

Trist: building.

Trist: If you have a beautiful, lush ballad bossa nova, or you want a

Trist: big, rich, thick vocal sound, that super tuned sound isn't as

Trist: at home there.

Trist: So if you're trying to fix those notes, you have to try to do it

Trist: in a different way than you do on a up tempo, electronicky type

Trist: of a song.

Trist: So I feel like that's evolved quite a bit.

Trist: And people have heard that

Trist: producers and engineers, editors

Trist: have started to hear those

Trist: things like, wow, okay, those

Trist: notes are all quote unquote,

Trist: right.

Trist: but does it work artistically still with it so tuned?

Trist: And the ability now for people

Trist: to be able to fix some of those

Trist: things, get things in tune, and

Trist: have it still sound more

Trist: natural, as if it was sung, is

Trist: really helping.

Trist: Again, the technology there is really improving.

Elaine: Hmm. Well, it sounds like, it definitely is a matter of taste.

Elaine: And also that the music producer

Elaine: is really important, even if

Elaine: it's yourself.

Elaine: Right.

Elaine: Like the decisions that you make

Elaine: in that are important in

Elaine: figuring out, depending on what

Elaine: genre you're in, where it sits

Elaine: in, that natural versus overly

Elaine: produced, spectrum that you

Elaine: have.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: Okay. Well, any last thoughts here before we wrap up?

Trist: That's it.

Trist: This was a good one.

Elaine: Awesome. Okay. So with that we will see you next week.

Trist: See you soon.

Trist: Mm-mm-mmmmm!

Elaine: of course you do.

Elaine: Because you're Trist, and you know everyone.

Trist: Oh, I sound like I know words.

Trist: That's so great.

Elaine: Actually, I've been told we don't punch anymore.

Trist: I know you're thinking of.

Trist: I can't think of it either.

Trist: The winner of phraseology is.

Elaine: Thank you.

Elaine: That's it.

Elaine: You got it.