EP 396 - Are supermarkets controlling more than just prices? global food expert Mark Field reveals the hidden secrets of the food industry, exposing how Big Food shapes what we eat, drives up costs, and impacts sustainability. Learn how corporate power influences your choices - and what it means for the future of food.

*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*

Spotify Video Chapters:

00:00 BWB with Mark Field

00:57 Meet Mark: A Food Industry Leader

01:43 Quickfire - Get To Know Mark

02:00 Mark's Career Journey and Insights

07:46 The Impact of COVID-19 on Prof Consulting

12:36 Global Trends in the Food Industry

15:19 Challenges and Innovations in Food Logistics

18:54 Brexit's Impact on the UK Food Industry

23:27 British Farming and Seasonal Produce

27:25 Vertical Farming and Future Technologies

27:41 Energy Costs vs. Output in Food Production

28:19 Future of the Food Industry by 2050

29:44 Changing Food Preferences and Social Eating

30:56 Global Food Diversity and Supermarket Trends

37:10 Sustainability and Business Growth in Food Retail

42:34 AI's Role in Food Industry Transformation

48:44 Advice for Entering the Food Industry

50:32 Challenges and Opportunities in Food Retail

54:06 Wrap Up

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Ever wondered how your supermarket shelf got so full or even so confusing?

Mark Field helped grow Australia's biggest food brand to £9 billion.

And now he's lifting the lid on how food really works.

From supermarket wars to vertical farming and why your steak might taste better if it's smaller.

This is the future of food without the fluff.

Hi and welcome to Business Business Without Bullshit.

We're here to help the founders, entrepreneurs, business owners, anyone who wrestles with the job of being in charge.

And if you like what we do here, please rate and review us on Spotify and Apple and come say hi on YouTube if you fancy watching us in action.

Links are in the episode description or just search for WBLondon.

I am Andy Oury and today we are joined by Mark Field.

Mark is a seasoned leader in the global food industry with decade of technical and commercial experience spanning Europe and Australia.

He worked with some of the world's most iconic brands from McDonald's, KFC to major UK retailers like Tesco's and Marks and Spencer's.

Mark has played a pivotal role in growing Australia's largest food brand from 7 to 9 billion in value.

Now heading up Prof.

Consulting Group, Mark's strategic vision and hands on leadership have made him a go to expert in shaping the future of food.

Mark, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

Great to be here today.

That's a great, great cv Especially it's always good to talk about food.

Subject close to most of our hearts.

Now we're just going to start with some simple questions, Mark.

We call it quick fire.

Just to get to know you a little bit better.

Simple personal questions.

Dee is queuing some music.

What was your first job, Mark?

I think like many of you listeners, my first job was a paper round.

It was the weekend job, it was helping in the family business.

But leaving university, the first serious job was working for a food processor that had moved from Romford in Essex down to the west country at a key time where Tesco's were changing their red meat supply base and I was lucky to spend 12 years working for them.

Excellent.

What was your worst job?

Well, go back to my days at college.

I remember one afternoon the the lecturer got a phone call.

He needed some of us that were meat technology students at the time come into a local meat print and dice frozen offal for the afternoon.

Now they offered to pay us.

It sounded fantastic.

As a student you try everything once but it's probably one of the hardest things I've ever done.

Dicing off all.

Yeah, because it was frozen.

So it Was cold.

It was just a cold environment.

But it was well paid.

Was it?

Oh, at the time, it seemed good pay.

But I think on reflection, what it did teach me is how hard some people work.

And when you go to show people what they need to do, to follow new policies, to audit a facility, I think it's really important to put yourself in their shoes.

Not how you tell them to do things, but how you guide them to do the right thing.

So it's been a good grounding for me, but definitely one of the hardest things I've done.

I've been really lucky to work across a number of industries, from live animals coming into retail packs going out.

But I think I look back on that and that's probably one of the things I most remember the whole experience.

And it's definitely given me empathy.

Yeah, I always struggle slightly with this.

You ought to do what you love.

And, you know, I feel it's a very sort of privileged point of view, that it's sort of, you know, you can be a podcaster, it's like, well, somebody is still, you know, working in manufacturing or, you know, dealing with quite difficult jobs, you know, I mean, I'm not saying they hate what they do, but it's not necessarily easy.

No, it's all in proportion.

You know, I think we all go home at the end of the day, the end of the week to our families and are tired, but I think it's all in proportion.

And I think those of us who get to do something that's got a bit more variety, I think in life it's a real privilege.

And I think looking back, I've been really lucky.

How the food industry's treated me, the opportunities it's given me, the people I've met.

And I guess ultimately, what it's helped us achieve as a family favourite subject at school, geography.

Oh, nice.

You good with your capitals?

Yeah, not bad, not bad.

Please don't test me, but not bad.

But I think geography.

I really struggled at languages and on.

You dyslexic?

No, but I wish I'd done better at languages at the time.

You know, French and German was key and you look at it and you go, you know, it would be a gift now, but I really enjoy geography.

Yeah, special skill mark.

Have you got one?

I like to think it's about finding a solution and engaging people.

You know, too many times you come up against people that, here's all the reasons not to do something, as opposed to, well, if we try this, it might work.

And I think having had the freedom during my career so far to try and find solutions.

I think that's a gift that not everyone's had but I've been lucky to develop it and I, I hope it makes me a different person.

These are very good answers.

What did you want to be when you grew up?

So I wanted to be a stockbroker.

Did you?

I did.

So the late 80s I wanted to be a stockbroker.

The paper round we talked about earlier and a few other part time jobs enabled me to buy a few shares very early on and I wanted to be a stockbroker.

And I remember now I went to the career session at school and I said to the careers officer, I want to be a stockbroker.

And the guidance I had wasn't correct.

He said if it's not in your family business, he said your chances of making it are very remote.

And if it's not in your family.

Business, if your family's not a stockbroker.

Right.

Your chances of making it a very remote thing.

That's good advice.

I think at the time I believed it and I think that set me up for how I've been since then.

Because you look back and say today in a world where we've got the Internet and access to a lot more material without making myself sound super old, I think you'd look at it slightly different.

And I think the mistake I made was I took one person's advice at a crucial time and, and let that determine what I.

What I believed.

So you could have been a stockbroker?

Yeah, yeah.

I'd have retired by name.

What did your parents want you to be?

They wanted me to make my own choice.

So we had a family business at the time.

What was this family?

So it's a wholesale meat business?

No way.

Yeah, yeah.

So you know Smithfield?

No, no.

But I remember my first trip to Smithfield when I was 14.

Going up with one of the drivers to wait to the gates there for it to open at midnight and see the lorries unloaded.

So you know, strong connection and it's always great to be in London and walk past it and have some fond memories.

But you know, ultimately helped in family business where needed.

But there was no pressure to join the family business.

It was do what you want and if you want to come back and do something different, you can do that.

And that I think that's great.

Great advice and great support.

Well, as a family business we acted for Smithfield for a long, long time.

So you know, we share some connect there.

Good thoughts do you do karaoke?

Not too much.

If you had to sing a song, Mar.

Oh, I think it'd be Queen Don't Stop Me now or Meatloaf.

I mean, Don't Stop Me now.

And what a song.

I don't know if we can hit the notes, but, yeah.

Office dogs, business or bullshit?

I think it's business.

I think things are changing.

We've got a great dog at home.

Yeah.

And what type?

Oh, so it's a poodle cross.

Nice.

One of the poodles.

Small dogs.

Yeah.

So fantastic dog.

Gives us everything.

And many a day when I'm working from home, should be sat by my feet.

And I think really, it's ultimately, it's about the team you build and the culture that you create that says whether dogs at business, dogs that work our business, or whether it's a distraction.

You know, many people very quickly go outside for a coffee, cigarette.

If you want to walk your dog around the block and it gives you that same ability to go again, then I think it's a great thing.

But it's about individuals not abusing it.

Have you got a guilty pleasure, Mark?

Oh, I enjoy a good glass of red wine.

Good man.

It's actually named something that's, you know, involves alcohol or something, you know.

Brilliant.

Okay.

And any particular?

Do you prefer a Burgundy or you a Bordeaux, man?

Well, I must say, having lived in Australia for 11 years.

10 years.

Yeah.

Really enjoy heavy Shiraz.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The heavy red.

The blood.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very good.

So what are you doing right now, Mark?

So now we're running Prof.

Consulting.

So we just moved back to the UK two years ago.

Launched Prof.

I launched Prof.

Oh, you were at Kohl's.

So anyone who doesn't know Australia, there's Coles and there's.

And Woolworths.

Yes.

Two major supermarkets in the market.

The market's worth 132 billion.

Two major retailers between them, 65% market share.

So significant players.

So I did 10 years at Coles under the chairmanship of Archie Norman, the legend.

Archie Norman.

Why is he such a legend?

Why do I know his name?

Well, you achieved great things at Asda, great things at Marks and Spencer's and.

Oh, he was in the UK and he moved out there.

Yeah, he's now come back.

He's a Brit, is he?

Yeah, he's now come back and doing great things for Martin Spencer's.

And I think if you're fortunate enough to be in a room with him, I think you very quickly understand the aura and what he's achieved.

What's so good about Archie, you think?

I think his approach is experience and his ability to put things together to deliver a true solution.

And I think probably one of the best people I've been fortunate enough to be in a room with.

Is he quite quiet?

Does he listen and sort of talk at the end or.

Very keen to get used to view.

So we'll very quickly ask you the questions and benefit from what you have to contribute before he draws a conclusion.

So I would say he comes into a room with an open perception of, I want to get as much out of this as I can do.

Will you sort of work around a room?

Will he?

Getting everyone's view?

Yeah, yeah.

And very good on listening groups and so forth.

And, you know, you look at the model he talked about recently, which was well documented in the press about his time at Marks and Spencer's, you know, just got his driver and they just went off and did stores and just talked to people that matter to understand what's it really like in a business to come back and form his strategy as opposed to coming in with a preconception.

So fantastic days and being in a transformational business where you're making change as opposed to a business as usual, where you're focused on different strategies.

Fantastic experience.

But, you know, WestPharmacy were the company that owned Coles at that time.

Huge entity in Australia.

Yeah.

Sixth biggest employer and, you know, only in a lot of the big companies in Australia.

Great business to work for.

Launched Prof.

Consulting, as I say, later the same year, really thinking or identifying an opportunity, I believe was there for brands and private label suppliers, particularly across food and grocery, that didn't really understand the change in dynamics within the retail environment, weren't confident to engage with the retailers, didn't know how to approach them and were struggling to get market share.

And we launched, as I say, just before COVID hit and Covid hit and we were fortunate enough to survive the business through Covid.

But what it really taught us at that point, I think, was a real switch in how people engaged services because people would engage you for a service without you being in their factory or their boardroom, which meant that actually a work remotely model became really effective.

So today we've fast forwarded it, we're back in the UK now.

We've just moved our business and consolidated it all out the uk, which was super exciting but a real challenge and I'm sure some of the questions.

We'll get into that later.

But it enabled us to build a team of people around the world in markets where we wanted to be represented with skills that our clients needed without having to have them all in one central facility.

Because you can do so much work remotely now.

Prof.

Consulting is consulting in food.

Yeah, we're food and grocery specialists first that are consultants as opposed to traditional consultants that are trying to talk about food.

And I think that's our real point of difference.

All the team have come out of international food manufacturing or retail, all at a similar stage of our life cycle and all looking to do something different and make a difference.

So what would be a typical customer for you?

We can be right from the big end of town with private equity and there's lots of M and A activity going on in the market.

The private equity come to you and say, should we buy this business or not?

They ask us for input on operational due diligence and procurement, but also category strength and strength of retailers relationships so we have chance to contribute to the work that they're doing before their acquisitions.

But also post acquisition around how do you take the cost out of business quickly to accelerate the return on investment all the way down to the smaller businesses that have either got a new idea and just got no idea where to start and just need a light touch support to.

What we've seen a lot of in Australia is that second generation that have inherited the businesses from mum and dad, which in Australia are significant businesses because of the landscape and they're looking for help to reach their next market, go to the next stage.

So that fractional capability that we can offer, there's a real need growing in the market for it.

But I think we are different because we're foodies first, consultants second, as opposed to consultants talking about food.

And that's why I think there's a room for both in the market.

What global trends are driving innovation in the food industry today?

I think a really exciting one at the moment is the focus on health and wellness.

I think again, we're more focused now as individuals around how do we control the health of our family and what can we do that alleviates the cost of necessarily going to the gym.

And I think we're looking at food differently.

I think we're looking at food alleviates.

The cost of going to the gym.

Yeah, I think for many people, I think there's those families there that can't afford to do the gym.

So it's easy to substitute that for eating differently.

But I think there's also that generation that are really focused on the gym and their own training that are looking for foods now that improve their performance quicker.

So I always talk about it as food with functionality or food with added benefits.

So the growth of high protein, the growth of fiber in food, the importance of collagen in food, I think we're looking for that food plus as opposed to just great taste in food.

And there's a cynical piece of me that it seems to me ever since Instagram took off that people are more concerned with vanity than health underneath it, you know, there was something mad the way everyone suddenly became obsessed with, you know, supposedly health.

But maybe it is health, maybe, you know, it's not sort of making sure I've got a six pack on Instagram or something.

Well, I think marketing's changing the way in which brands come to market.

Not just in food, but outside of food.

But I think, you know, if we were talking to mums and dads and ultimately they're, you know, a significant part of the UK landscape.

Yeah, I think they are more focused now on how do you reduce sugar, how do you reduce fats, how do you help your kids, you know, prepare for the big E and what should they eat that sets them up for a good day without necessarily that sugar hit.

So I think ultimately we're all becoming more and more aware of health and it is changing the way in which we're seeing products developed and key ingredients in products and the products that consumers buy.

Is it similar here where the market is between Australia and the UK or are they more healthy, less healthy?

So Australia actually isn't that healthy.

So the perception is Australia is super healthy.

They used to say eight hours of sport, eight hours of work and eight hours of sleep.

And the reality is Australia has got some health challenges.

As an example, their level of fruit and vegetable consumption is less than 3 units per day where the recommended recommendation.

And there's a huge problem with obesity.

Yeah, they do, they do.

So, you know, there are challenges in that market, but I think if you bring that back into food as opposed to lifestyle, Australia's got some world leading products in that health food category and it's got access to some really great raw materials such as indigenous ingredients.

But I think then you look at the uk, the UK market is more advanced in science and more advanced in product, private label and brand.

So I think it's a blend between the two.

I don't think there's one that's necessarily a, a clear leader.

I think they've both got great attributes which you can combine together to really inspire consumers.

You know, the fact that they've only got two supermarkets in Australia and there's so much competition here.

I mean, I don't know, I'm lost.

What have we got?

10 major brands?

I don't know a lot if you include in them.

I mean, is that to do with the fact that in the UK we're a little country and logistics are never the problem?

You know, in Australia you want to get food from one side of the country to the other, same as America.

You sort of, you know, it's a lot about logistics.

Yeah, that's a great question.

So, you know, I think for clarity, there's two major supermarkets, 65% of the market.

Aldi are there at about 10 or 11%.

Yeah.

Costco are there at about 14%.

And there's a healthy independent sector very much like the UK farm shop.

I think the point is that you've got two that are significant.

You've got four that make up about 80% of the market.

So I think that's important to, to, you know, to understand.

But I think as an example, if you're in Sydney and you want to send product across to Perth, the other side of the country.

Yeah.

New South Wales to wa.

Three days by rail, you know, it's four.

It's a four hour flight from Melbourne to Perth.

I always take the view in England.

It's like I say to clients, like, no matter how bad it is, you, me and Barry can drive to Edinburgh tonight and we'll get it there on time.

So it brings a different scale, it brings a different challenge, but the country is developed to where it is today based on accommodating those challenges.

So the chill chain, pretty robust because of the temperatures, you know, plus 40 degrees across the middle of Australia at certain times of the year.

The weather conditions that come through when you get the hurricanes and the storms.

Yeah.

You know, I say Australia is very resilient and had to be very resilient.

And in many cases the Australia mindset is it'd be all right because they work through it and they come back.

You see the tornadoes come or the Hurricanes come through and devastate the banana industry up in Queensland.

They know it's going to happen every three or four years.

They build capability coming into it and they recover after it.

So, you know, the markets are very different.

But I think one key difference that really resonated with me, I was with the CEO of one of our big suppliers in my very early days and I'm walking around the factory and you're thinking, well, I don't want to replicate what we do in the uk, but I just want the right thing for consumers.

So I was having the conversation with the CEO around, you know, what investment would look like to deliver more products.

And she said to me, she said, mark, you can have whatever you want.

She said, but just remember, we're two and a half times the size of Europe and a population of 26 million and that does bring challenges.

Two and a half times the size of.

Yeah.

And if you build a factory in, on the East Eastern Seaboard, so Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane, if it's fresh food, it's really hard to get it into Perth, which means you've got to have a factory in Perth and a factory on the Eastern seaboard.

So you need to look at it differently.

And I think that's why it's evolved to the state, it's evolved now because you've got to have a regional supply base for some products and you can have a national supply base.

Why their food is expensive.

I mean, you know, the price of food in the uk, it's gone up a bit since Brexit, but it's always been very cheap for a long time now, isn't it?

You know, I mean, Aussies who come here, they, you know, in many, in many ways they sometimes think, oh, standard of living, it's really expensive in London.

But there's certain things that are really cheap food, you know.

Yeah, no, for sure.

But I think it's all in proportion.

I think Australia, the cost of labour is high, I think the cost of transport, you know, goes into the products for sure.

So I think there is that and there is also the challenges around volume and scale that you've just talked about here.

But I think if you buy a coffee here and you convert that back into Australian dollars, the true price, we're paying more for a coffee here many.

Times and it' not as good.

They make the most amazing coffee.

They do.

And the ch, when you say the chilled infrastructure is so good, is that all by train, out of interest, is it?

So it's by ch, by train and A lot by road as well.

Yeah.

And there's also the ability to fly product in.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

I mean, talking about these cross border aspects, you know, the wonderful world of Brexit, you know, how has that impacted the UK food industry?

I mean, is it just been immense or, you know, not so bad?

You know what, what's really.

Because I, I remember I had a friend who worked in gray market imports at Tesco.

You know, she was on the phone all day buying stuff from Poland or whatever, you know, and I imagine that's all gone.

So I don't know.

What do you feel the, the real effects are for retailers and people in the food industry?

I think the last few years of food or for retail in general has been incredibly hard.

I think when I walk around the supermarket as a consumer rather than a consultant and you pick a product up and it says not for the eu and it's something that came from the eu, you know, such as fre, that's really hard to really.

I've never noticed that.

So you can buy a product that's from the EU but can't go back to the eu.

Yeah.

When it's in that retail pack and, you know, you look at that and you think, you know, how do you explain that to friends at a dinner table or how do you explain that to your family?

So I think what we have seen is an incredible level of convocation go into the food industry, not just through the Brexit, but through other things, some of the challenges around, you know, international supply chains and so forth.

And I think, you know, whilst the industry is really resilient and able to respond really quickly, but it's gotta be a distraction at times.

And I think, think, you know, you walk around the supermarkets now and the level of availability is far better than it was 12 months ago.

Really?

Yeah, but it's not, it's not where it was, you know, before.

It's not where it was before that.

Right.

Do you think the new deal that they're agreeing is going to have any impact?

I think it's too early to know at the moment.

I think, you know, if you, if you take your levers from what you're seeing on pmq, if you take your levers from the response of the major retailers they're calling out as being positive.

But I think we've got to see how it works through.

You know, I think when you look at some of the retailers saying they weren't going to put certain lines into Northern Ireland for Christmas because of the complexity, I Think that just illustrates how important and how challenging it is.

We've always had very good food regulation and, you know, do you think we have a particularly high quality food industry in this country?

Yeah, I do and I think that's driven by.

Well, I think it's driven by the regulatory framework, but I think it's also been driven by the retailers.

If we go back to when I first started, you know, early 90s, the demands of the retailers there, particularly on private label supply, I think has contributed to where we are today.

Oh, interesting.

The own brand Tesco Sains piece, whatever is partly driven quality, you think?

Yeah, I think so for sure.

I think what we've seen there, it's over time we've seen some of the best technical people in the business employed by the retailers that has taken the supply base on a journey for those suppliers that could see the benefit.

Yeah, and it's definitely raised the food standard and I think you overlay that with some of the food scares I work through.

So not long after my career started, we went through bse, foot of mouth, the E Coli outbreak in the Pennington Report and so forth.

And you know, that was all in my first 10 years in the industry.

But I think, you know, I look back on it and say it was an incredibly challenging time for all of us.

Not just technical, but it took technical people into a different place from a contribution and a career perspective.

You know, I remember dealing with people that I only hoped to meet during my career at some point.

But you're dealing with them very quickly because of the challenges that were being faced.

And I think, I think that also then led to investment in the industry as we came out of those food scares.

And I think we've got some of the best facilities that I've seen and I've been fortunate enough to travel the world.

What I would say though is some other countries have got fantastic standards also.

It's not necessarily a commercial advantage, but it's where food has become now in many cases.

Is it the sacrifice of the farmers?

As a firm that's represented farmers for a long time, we have farmers who supply supermarkets and it's been brutal for them, you know, in terms of the price they get paid, you know, extra marketing costs, things turned away.

I mean, supplying the supermarkets is no mean feat.

Do you think the farmers get the tough end of the stick or whatever the phrase is?

I think they work really hard to produce the food that they do.

I think it's really hard to or unfair to comment on a particular sector of Farming or how the farmers have done.

But I think there's a great level of support here for British farmers from a consumer perspective.

And generally you walk around the retailers and they continue to support British farmers, whereas, you know, you go to other countries.

I was in Singapore recently.

Yeah.

And, you know, you look at that, they haven't got the farming structure.

Imported products is second nature to them.

I think our culture here is slightly different and in some cases that's an advantage, but we have to look after the supply chain as well.

I got the great pleasure of explaining to my son this morning.

He decided he wanted strawberries on his Weetabix and I managed to find some in the back of the fridge.

And he was like, daddy, these strawberries, only six are amazing.

And I was like.

Looked at the packet and I was like, it must be time of the year.

I was like, oh, British strawberries.

And I was like, well, you know, Chester, we, you know, the one thing Britain grows amazing things of is strawberries and berries.

You know, we're very good at the berries and the vegetables.

I'm always amazed.

I'm sure you are, when you travel internationally, is we eat a lot of vegetables in this country.

You know, you go and eat internationally and they, you know, vegetables are a sort of side dish.

They're much more central for us.

Yes, no, for sure, for sure.

And I think there is a great thing about being able to buy seasonal produce in the uk.

I think there's a great thing about being able to see seasonal produce in the supermarkets or in the farm shop, wherever you go.

But I think it's also important to be able to give the consumer choice to make sure you've got the best fruit of the season.

One of the things that's great about Australia is the way in which the crops grow there.

You can follow it around the country where you can get the product there with shelf line.

So you always have.

Not always, but a lot of the time.

You have an access to the fresh produce.

Whereas over here, strawberries now coming out of the uk, fantastic British strawberries, as we're saying.

But we're getting to the winter months and there'll still be some being produced here under control conditions, but there'll be a lot coming in from Europe and further afield to make sure consumers have got affordable products at great quality.

So, you know, I think the UK landscape gives us lots of benefits, but it also gives our supply base significant challenges because of the climate.

Yeah.

You know, you feel there's not much to be very proud of.

In this country.

But British strawberries, they're the best.

They are really good.

And there's some great innovation going on in that space, for sure.

Yeah, yeah.

And the cultural aspect.

Yeah, yeah.

And I like the way that Dyson's moved into farm and just launched his own branded strawberries onto.

But he's in Singapore now.

Traitor splitter.

So he's doing some great stuff and I think he's bringing technology into that space.

Is he really?

But one of the things I really like at the moment from, from a strawberry perspective is if you look at the label, most of the retailers are telling you what variety.

So if there's a particular variety that, that your son liked this morning, when you go back and take out the recycling, you'll be able to buy the same strawberries again because you can see the variety on there.

Yeah.

Which I think's great.

Hang on.

You mentioned Dyson.

That's a controversial figure these days.

Even though he's one of the, you know, Britain's great inventors, he managed to change the word hoover back to Dyson.

You know, change, flip, flip it back.

But know the, you know, I'm a tax person.

A lot of the public understanding of changes to inheritance tax and why the farmers have had a bit of a rough deal is that he bought loads of farms to avoid inheritance tax and to avoid agricultural property relief.

So, I mean, that's interesting to hear you here because it was always supposed to be, you know, so the.

So the media goes, or so the chat goes, a bit of a sham to avoid inheritance tax.

He moved into farming.

But you're saying he's doing farming properly now.

He's doing some great work in farming and, yeah, great working farm.

He's got some really great coverage on YouTube where he's opened up his strawberry facility and talking to you about the innovation they're doing.

He's got.

He's got some Dyson hair dryers I'm sure he's worked out to use to blow them somehow.

He's got a great level of tech there that he's using to make more consistent strawberries.

And I think, you know, regardless of the questions that you were just asking about inheritance tack, I think inheritance tax, I think if you can walk around a supermarket and see something that's better now or being improved from where it was, I think that's a great judge of anybody.

And now a quick word from our sponsor business without bullshit is brought to you by Ori Clark.

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And what about vertical farming and this sort of movement that, you know, we're gonna.

I've got clients who do it.

You, you know, you can grow more in a building.

And what do you feel about all of that?

Yeah, I think it's super interesting technology.

Unfortunately, we've seen a number of big players, you know, close the doors over the last six weeks.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Because the challenge has been the energy cost versus the output.

So there's some real benefits of finished product, you know, from a hygiene perspective, particularly into pharmaceutical.

But what we are seeing is a number of players that have gone in very early that are struggling to make it work.

There are others out there now that are doing a good job with it.

And I look at it and think if we're seeing technology and investors investing in making food better and the ability to access crops or herbs in different locations, then that's all good.

Because what we have to do is complement traditional farming methods to be able to produce enough affordable food for the masses as opposed to try and make the old model work on its own all the time.

Time.

Any senses?

Well, that's coming out super fast now.

You look at it and it's not that far away now.

I think what we are seeing, though, is we will continue to see the embracement of technology.

You know, I think technology to complement how we, how we use traditional methods will become more and more important.

The ability to collect more and more data, to make us.

To enable us to make databases, decisions.

But I think also the type.

Our demand on food, I think, will be different.

And I think we will see different foods to meet that purpose.

So I think, you know, we're already seeing in supermarkets, the type of food is beginning to change.

And I think where most of us would have grown up cooking a meal every day, I think that's becoming, you know, from.

From scratch.

I think that's becoming a far more social activity for many of us that you do as a family to reconnect at the end of the week, where you've got a bit more time.

So what we're looking for, the week, I think will be.

Will continue to evolve and be different than what we want from food at the weekend.

And I think one of the great things about the food industry that I've enjoyed is its ability to adapt quickly.

And I think we are seeing that adaptation now and I think we will continue to see more of that.

I think it'd be very different than if we had dinner tonight.

Oh, really?

And do you think.

I mean, it's interesting with everyone drinking less alcohol and getting so healthy, everyone obsessed with their health.

Health food is good.

I mean, food is one of the few pleasures we have in life that if you choose it well, it's good and it's good for you, you know.

So I assume, you know, our folk, rather than getting pissed and eating a fitness pancake, I mean, the sort of nature is that we're.

We're becoming more healthy, becoming more nutritious, cooking more.

That's the movement that you're sort of seeing.

Well, I think there's a role for both.

Oh, good.

The fitness pancake's not over.

Is it over?

Is it still out there?

No, I saw it in Iceland the other day, actually.

Still alive.

Go get your fingers.

Fingers.

Pancakes from Iceland, ladies and gentlemen.

So, you know, it's still there and I think there's a role that, that plays in the market for many people.

But I think what we are seeing now is a move towards more product that we would share.

So as an example, you know, you buy a steak now, a Bavette that you might cook and share with your partner, as opposed to both having a great big steak.

So I think the way in which you're looking at food is becoming slightly different.

We're becoming a bit more social.

You know, that whole tapas menu when you eat out, is becoming more popular and it's about a lot more variety rather than, you know, as I grew up, it was that traditional, you know, piece of meat, two or three veg, and that was it, as you said, right at the beginning.

So I think it's changing.

Having just been in Italy.

I mean, I know everyone says Italy, the food, the food, the food.

Yeah.

The trouble is, though, once you've been there two, three weeks, you know, I was there two weeks.

Week one's great, but week two, you're like, fancy something else?

You can't get anything else.

I mean, they don't have anything else.

I mean I was in Sicily, we were like, oh, really fancy Chinese.

There was no one who had Chinese, you know, at all.

We had to drive like 50 miles if you wanted to Chinese.

And the reviews on the restaurant were hilarious.

Like, you know, just like this is a terrible restaurant.

But it made me think, well, of course if you're Italian, you know, you're the home of food, you love Italian food.

If someone opens up a restaurant.

Because what it, what hit me when I was in Sicily, there's a lot of Indians in, in Sicily.

So I was thinking, well that must be good Indian food.

But there isn't even any of that.

But it's like if you're in Italy and you've got Italian food and someone opens an Indian restaurant, you're like, oh, not sure about that.

But of course in Britain there wasn't really anything, you know, so suddenly open people opened an Indian restaurant.

We were, is amazing.

You know, our food was so simple.

So it's actually given us this huge advantage over time that we've become terribly diverse in our tastes, you know, that we're sort of terribly open minded about, you know, I mean in London it's got to the stage that any sort of niche country, countries you didn't even hear of have sort of launched a thing.

And we're like, we're all queuing up outside saying if you had, you know, Andover cuisine, it's unbelievable.

You know, I think you're totally right and I think there's a lot of similarities there between the UK and Australia.

Australia of course, you know, where, you know, Australia really hasn't, I would say hasn't got that traditional dish, you know, because it is so diverse and it has got sort of such a multi fake meal.

Maybe chicken Parma perhaps.

But I think, yeah, they love a chicken Parma.

It's famous for a lot more.

I think it's got that diversity of the population which means that they just do fusion.

So well take, you know, something that's Australian and put other stuff with it.

It's fantastic.

But I think, you know, two things there.

I think if you walk around supermarkets now and you buy an Italian dish or Mexican dis, it's a lot closer now to the real experience you would have in that country because of the focus that's gone on to, to create that rather than doing like the text Mex version of.

So I think we've got, we've got a lot of higher quality foods coming into the, the retailers now.

We've got a great environment tweet out last week or the week before, we were up at the Millennium dome or the O2 having a look round and there was over 40 different food outlets there as I walked down one side.

Yeah.

And they were all different cultures.

You know, there's the African, there's a Brazilian, the Italians, there's chicken.

And you just look and you go, jeanette, this is fantastic.

We are so, so lucky.

You know, they talk about the climate crisis and I'm gonna.

I'm gonna phrase it wrong, but there's also this sort of failure in nature in terms of the quality of the soil, quality of biodiversity.

I can't think what they call it.

I'm forgetting the word.

But, you know, surely that's going to play a part in our food, that it's going to be harder to grow good quality food nutritionally.

It's going to get worse.

What some people are saying is going on.

I mean, you know, I walk around Britain, I see green old Britain.

It doesn't look much different from when I was a little boy, you know, other than London's very gentrified.

But do you see that in the.

The products?

I think we are, in some cases, but I think what we are seeing, and we've talked a little bit about tech so far, is, is the technical solutions that are going in to try and address it.

So I think what we are seeing is people recognizing the challenge now, as opposed to previously not truly understanding the challenge of what you could do.

That's different.

So, you know, I came up on the train from.

From Somerset today.

As you come up just before Newbury, there's what at first instance looks to be lavender in the fields around you.

And you look and you go, wow, that's lavender.

I didn't.

I think we did lavender around Newberry.

But actually, just looking on the Internet, which I actually did, it's an ingredient or a plant they're growing to enhance the quality of the soil for the next cycle.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

It puts carbon back in the soil.

Yeah.

And there's a lot that happened around the Norfolk area and so forth.

Yeah.

So, you know, that.

That whole approach to understanding that something's not quite right and how do we use a reasonably natural way to.

To replenish nutrients in that soil?

I think there's a greater understanding now and isn't all about putting more fertilizer on or using more pesticides to try and get the crops.

So, you know, those type of things that the general public might have just thought, hey, that's lavender.

But, you know, there's a lot going on that we were not aware of as consumers, where people are trying to make sure they've got great quality products, the right variety of products that are fit for today's climatic conditions, but at the same time trying to understand what makes them consistent and maximize yield.

Because it's all important for success.

And if you just produce something and the flavor is great, but you haven't got the yield, then you can't afford to buy it as a consumer.

Consumer.

If you've got great yield and there's no flavor, then the consumer doesn't want to buy it.

So it's that balanced scorecard to how do we produce great taste.

Really.

Doesn't the consumer buy on looks?

Not on taste?

No.

I think they're sharp.

You might buy it on look the first time, but you won't go back and buy it tomorrow.

You won't remember it.

I, you know, it's a slightly hard view but you know, people are sometimes saying, wow, you know what, you know, the supply chains are being messed up and we're not going to be able to get all these things all the time.

But there's a piece of me, it's like I go into the supermarket, there's too much stuff.

I mean, there's too much choice.

I mean, you, you, you could get rid of.

I'm not saying there is too much choice, but I'm saying, you know, we have too much food.

You know, I mean the irony now that that's been existing for so long, that we've got so much food, so we all get fat, so we all have to exercise, you know, without putting energy, any energy back into the grid.

There's this sort of, you know, meanwhile we've got an energy crisis.

It's like to some extent, some failure if it wakes us up and makes us start, you know, fixing the problem.

Problems is tolerable.

I guess.

I mean, that's a ridiculous sentence I'm saying, but do you know what I mean?

In a sense, I guess I'm asking, is there too much choice?

Do we really need all this choice?

Do we really need the blueberries all right, year round or whatever it is?

I think we should celebrate the fact that we've got so much choice because I think that gives us freedom to decide what do we want to purchase and what can we afford to purchase.

And I think what we are seeing here, and I think there's lots of similarities with Australia, is that ability to have choice for all customers rather than here's a very limited range Because I'm only going to sell you white bread or I'm only going to sell you strawberries.

What we have got is that ability to choose.

And as we said earlier, a very multicultural country and your needs and my needs will be different to the people sat next to us and so forth.

And I think that's one of the things that makes the country great.

Is there, is that freedom of choice?

Is there a sort of tension, though, between these sustainability goals and the commercial growth?

Can sustainability and business growth go hand in, handy in hand?

I think so.

We had a client in the first year of launching our business in Melbourne that had been to pitch to a retailer on an energy saving product and they hadn't been successful.

Private equity owned hadn't been successful.

And they called me and they said, mark, we really don't understand why we weren't successful.

And as we broke it down, one of the reasons that they were unsuccessful is that they had a sustainability policy.

But at that stage it was only a policy.

They couldn't demonstrate the progress.

And that for me was one of those light bulb moments where you see an opportunity.

So what we did at that stage was build an ESG business within our core food consulting business.

So now we offer both services together.

So if we're advising someone on a packaging solution or product innovation strategy, you take the ESG lens to that in its creation, rather than having a commercial team that's focused on growth and then you've got a team that's on the ESG strategy and you're trying to catch up.

So, you know, I believe the two can work together very effectively.

If you look at a case study of Tesco's and the uk where they did some work on toilet rolls, when the toilet rolls tighter and everybody always talks about toilet roll in a crisis, but, you know, with their example.

And again, this is, this has been well documented and I think it's a great example.

They managed to take a number of lorries off the road every week because they could move their toilet rolls quicker, which was better availability for customers.

There was always toilet rolls and so tighten the rolls.

So less rolls, more sheets on a roll, more rolls on a pallet.

So they made a significant impact in reducing, reducing miles.

They managed to improve availability.

So it was a win for the consumer, it was a win for the supplier and it was a win for Tesco's and their commitment.

So I think they're the examples that we should talk more of rather than at times where you hear a business saying, I can't Afford to do sustainable things is putting cost in.

They need to do it on crisps, the amount of air they're carrying around.

For sure, for sure.

And there's been some good work on that.

You know, again, you look around Tesco's now, where they put the logo on there, to tell you where they have made improvements and how much reduction.

You know, taking the toothpaste tube out of the box, you know, things like that, that's just common sense.

And I think you do that because it's right for the environment, but you do that because it makes you more commercially aware as well.

You know, it improves your profitability.

And I think do the two together makes sense.

Put lots of cost into a business at any time.

Really challenging.

Do you think the big retailers are at an equilibrium now?

I mean, there's always been so much change or felt like Aldi and Lidl were just going to take over and then they, you know, I saw the other day that Tesco's back or, you know, now, is it sort of quite balanced or.

No, I think it's super dynamic.

I think it's super dynamic.

I was in an Asda store the night before they launched the rollout campaign earlier this year.

So they came away from the Aldi price match.

Again, well documented.

I was in the store the night before.

They matched all Aldi's prices on a number of lines.

They were matching Aldi's prices.

So as a consumer, you walked in and you go, well, if I buy that product, I know it's the same price as Aldi.

You know, Sainsbury's are doing that now.

But I was in this particular Asda store the night before and they were moving from that to the rollback campaign.

And the difference, this store in 48 hours was incredible.

And I think what we are, the store was cleaner, the store was more focused, it was easier to shop as a consumer.

What's the rollback campaign?

Roll back the prices.

Yeah, yeah.

So this isn't their new leadership.

Why does that make it cleaner?

What's the.

Because they took away all the signage there.

That was confusing.

So as you walk, the store as a customer got very simple.

Yeah, but I was going to say, how do you compete with Audi and Little?

Their model is, we'll have 10 lines versus your 100 lines and we'll buy 10 times as much as your 100 lines.

So we get.

We get bigger volumes to bargain a better price, you know.

Yeah, no, for sure.

And there's a lot.

So how do you match it?

There's a lot more international sourcing.

So one of the ways you match it is through private label, because you have.

So with a good private label strategy, you have a product that only you have got.

So if you look at Loblaws, a famous Canadian retailer, they started off with the ultimate chocolate chip cookie or the decadent chocolate chip cookie, fantastic product that customers would only go into their store to buy because that's where you could only buy it and while you're in there would buy the brand.

So the growth of private label in the UK market or the Australian market is an important tool to be able to defend against Aldi, the depth of range where you can go and say, well I want an olive oil, but I want this particular olive oil.

Tesco's have probably got 35 olive oils on the shelf.

Aldi have probably got three or four.

So that choice is one of the things that the retailers are doing.

But you've also got to be really competitive for those consumers that are finding it really hard and that's a significant amount and be able to compete with a them against the Aldi offer.

But I think to your question on retailers, I think the UK market continues to be incredibly dynamic.

It's nearly a $300 billion market and I think those that are leading today, we've seen, if you look at history over the last 20 years, a strategy can come through very quickly and change the dynamics within the market.

Who's in charge at the moment, who's boss at the moment?

Tescos are definitely the leader.

They were in the toilet only a few years ago.

Tesco is definitely the leader for market size.

I think from product, from Innovation Marks and Spencer's doing some fantastic things.

But you know, the other retailers and growing really well.

You know, good, good figures announced this week but other retailers are doing very well as well.

And I think, you know, great thing about this country is that we've got different retailers that meet different customer needs and I think that's really important.

You know Iceland are doing some nice stuff.

Yeah.

But a very different customer base.

So, you know, I think that the market's changing.

B M's becoming more important.

You know, there's a lot more choice for customers and when consumers are finding it, we really tough.

I think that level of choice is important.

Yeah.

And AI is it transforming food, your consultancy?

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting space and I was probably a bit late to the party because I was over cautious.

But I think if we look at, you know, last summer's launches by Waitrose as an example, they talked about how they'd used AI to really understand what consumers wanted and contribute to the development of that range.

And I think there is a place for AI in, in food.

But you know what, I, I think it's just really important how we use it.

If somebody says, look, I can write a brand strategy because I put it through AI, that's not going to be successful.

If someone says, I've got more data now than I can analyze in a realistic time frame on as a team, using AI to analyze that data is really important.

So I think it has got a role, but it's using it with, with the right purpose and that's definitely something we're looking at.

But how do we analyze more data?

Data and how do we use it as a basis for information that we sense?

Check based on experience.

Because ultimately the reason I set up.

Prof. Is because, you know, we've all come out of the industry with significant experience.

Asking the computer to do that I don't think is the short term future.

So embrace it, but embrace it carefully.

How do you end up doing this, Mark?

I wanted to make a difference, really wanted to make a difference.

What sort of difference?

That's a big word.

Yeah, no, it is.

I wanted to help businesses be more successful commercially and I think I've been really fortunate that I've had a career both sides of the table, 25 years, one side of the table.

Understanding what retailers want and working hard to deliver it across an international platform.

Then crossing over to the devil.

Yeah, but understanding I talked earlier about, one of my regrets was not understanding a language at school, but I think I understand the language of food and the language of retail and that can share valuable insights both sides of the table.

I can talk to a retailer about retailer strategies, I can talk to a manufacturer about sourcing and production or operational strategies strategies.

And you know, I think, I think that's a very small amount of people that can do that and are offering that type of service.

Is it a nice industry to work in, full of, you know, hilarious people or is it just, you know, food and drink always feels hilarious, but that's more at the restaurant end.

This end feels always a bit more sharp.

Yeah, I think it's very dynamic, very fast moving.

I'm lucky to have a lot of international exposure.

So you get probably more dynamism, more pace.

But I think if you're in food, you're in food because you love it as opposed to I'm in food because it's not for me.

So I think, you know, you're either born to be in food or not.

And I think if you are, it's just like, you know, some other careers.

It's.

It's just a great place to be.

What's your favorite food, Mark?

Oh, that is a great question.

You're on your own.

Nobody's looking.

What are you having at the moment?

I'm into my seafood at the moment.

Yeah.

So barramundi's top of my list.

Yeah.

Barramundi, yeah.

Very Australian.

Very Australian.

Indian fish.

Wait, wait, what is bar?

Can you even get it here?

What is barramundi?

It's beginning to become a little bit of it into the UK market.

But a fantastic fish, really healthy, great alternative to salmon, which is also fantastic.

Yeah.

But I think, you know, spending time in Australia, sushi, fantastic with the Oriental influence, the Japanese influence, too, and it's great to see that influence coming into the UK recently.

So I think that's great.

But, you know, I love a great steak.

And again, probably had some great steaks in the uk, but also had some great steaks out of Australia.

So, yeah, the steak competition cracks me up because people always like, oh, we do the best steaks in the world.

The truth is this, as a person who's eaten, I think all of these steaks.

The best American, the best Scottish, the best South American, the best Australian.

They're very similar.

I mean, when they're really good.

I mean, would you put one ahead of the others?

I mean, amazing.

Scottish steak is as good as whatever.

You know, I think there's.

I think there's a big thing in there about consistency.

So if you've got a chef that's cooking a steak or you know how to cook a good steak, I think you'll find them more consistent.

I think if you give one to the average consumer that.

That cooks a.

A steak, but.

But isn't great at cooking the steak.

I think they see a lot more variation.

Don't buy steak at, no offense, supermarkets.

I mean, it's changed.

It has changed the last five, 10 years in London.

But you could.

You could buy lamb, you could buy chicken, but you could never buy steak in the supermarket that was tender.

You know, that was my experience, you know, certainly when I grew up, and even till recently, it was a struggle, but now you get, you know, the age steak or something like that, and then cooking a steak.

You're absolutely right.

I mean, I'm amazed how few people know how to do.

Do it.

It's like, get the pan ridiculously.

Hot, you know, you sort of, you got it, you got to almost, you know, burn this thing, you know, and then, and then don't overcook it, really, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think, you know, we, we've got a better understanding how to do that.

I think you're right.

The, the movement to age steak making a massive difference.

You know, even, even the cheapest steak in Supermarket is about 21 days matured, which is doing a great difference.

And then at the premium end, you know, we, we've got, we've got breed selection, we've got dry aging.

All, all crazy money though, you know, you'll be there.

And I'm not saying necessarily in the supermarket, but it's like as much as it is in the restaurant.

It's sort of, you know, in London anyway, you can pay £20 for an aged steak.

It blows your mind, you know, in some cases.

But I think, you know, we could go out and we could spend 20 pound on a burger quite easily nowadays.

So I think it's in proportion.

Right back to what you said at the beginning, that, that weekend experience of cooking with your family or with your partner, where we're going to eat a little bit less steak, but we want it to really deliver, you know, and you're putting that across a great bottle of wine.

Yeah, it's, if you look at it that way, whilst it's not affordable for many people every night, and we should remember that actually having great quality and having a little bit less of it when you want it, I think is a really interesting way to go.

What's the best advice you've ever been given, Mark?

I think to back yourself, to be confident in yourself.

Yeah.

And one person said to me, if you've ever got too much on your list, he said, you got to get some of that off the list.

And it sounds really easy.

It sounds really easy.

But when you look at people that just become overwhelmed because there's so much going on, going on, the lack of ability to prioritize and say, what do I really need to do versus what would I like to do versus what's not going to change the dial, I think that's really clear advice because there's not going to be a magic person that's going to come in and take that stuff off your list.

But, you know, at times we all do get, you know, so much coming in.

What do I answer first?

What do I do?

How do I prioritize my time and so forth?

And I think, you know, the ability to say Back yourself, Be confident, make a decision.

There's nothing worse than not making a decision.

But if that list is getting too long, you've got to take the pen to it and you got to say, what do I really need, need to do versus what's not going to move the dial.

Good advice.

Any top tips for anyone wanting to get into this food industry?

Or what would you say to someone who's trying to get a product into the supermarkets?

Or.

I think you've got to access experience very quickly.

You can spend a lot of money if you don't know what you're doing.

And you can really blow a fortune by not knowing how to engage, how to produce a product, how to build a product.

I remember in my early days, there was an example.

One of the developers was building a product.

They were using olive oil that had been matured for 80 years, 18 years.

And the chef turned around and said to them, well, if you try this olive oil.

So balsamic that had been aged for 18 years versus a balsamic that was, you know, relatively fresh.

The difference in the finished product was.

Was minute.

The consumer wouldn't have picked it up.

Yet the cost difference between that product was incredible.

So I think you've really got to understand what are you trying to achieve.

And you can achieve great things with good quality ingredients without putting something in that makes your product unaffordable.

Yeah.

So engage an expert early on.

Yeah.

To help set you up on the right course and to share some of their learnings to help you be successful quickly.

Because it comes from passion, doesn't it?

People produce a food from a passionate point of view, and yet retail is a margin game, tight margins.

Building a product, getting, you know, it's that wonderful thing.

I've done it.

I've seen other clients do it.

You get something into a supermarket, you're like, well, that's it.

Put my feet up now.

I've had my order from Tesco, I'm good.

And then it doesn't sell and it's off the shelves in a week.

You know, you're right.

And the minute you get your product on your shelf or on their shelf.

That'S when the work starts.

Yeah, but the competition, straight away, they're trying to get you off the shelf.

So that's when it gets really hard.

So, you know, getting the listing is.

Is hard.

I wouldn't want anyone to think that that's not a challenge in itself, but the real hard work starts when you're on the shelf.

Because as soon as a customer See, or as soon as your competition see your product, they're trying to work out how they leapfrog you and get that market share back.

So.

Absolutely, yeah.

Brutal.

Yeah.

Mark, what do you think is in the industry though, and why?

I think we do get distracted as an industry by a number of things.

I believe if you've got the right people, you don't need to put as much framework around them as maybe we are at times.

So, you know, if we look at diversity, not saying diversity is good or bad, but it's become a very big thing as opposed to the right person for the right job.

So I think, you know, a sensible approach, a balanced approach is fair, but I don't think we should put too many rules around certain things.

We should just let the right people do the right job and the best person for the job and so forth.

Is this a white man feeling slightly ostracized?

If you have, you've been missing out on some opportunities there as a white man.

No, but I think the day will come.

I think, I think that's very fair, that people will employ somebody for a KPI as opposed to necessarily the right person.

And I wouldn't, I wouldn't want that to be me, I wouldn't want that to be my kids.

I wouldn't want that to be anyone.

I believe it's about the right person for the right job.

And I look back and I think I've been really lucky.

But I think Lux helped me on that journey as well.

Been at the right place at the right, right time.

You know, the benefit of food scares and so on and so forth.

And I think given anybody, regardless of any diversity, the ability to benefit from that luck, I think, is, is a great way to look at things.

I think you're very clear of thought, quite decisive, quite feet on the ground.

You don't find decisions too difficult?

No, thank you.

And I think that's, that's result in nearly 30 years in the industry dealing and, and the people I've been fortunate enough to meet and spend time with and people that have taken challenge me.

Because you can't sit there on the fence because you create no value.

You, you're in, you're in a meeting, you're in a forum, you're being asked for your view because it will make a difference.

The worst thing you can do is be indecisive.

But also if you can't, if you don't feel you're an expert in that area or you haven't got opinion, then you shouldn't fill a gap.

Yeah, it's, it's tricky, isn't it?

We get a lot of group think and a lot of sort of, you know, we sit around a table, I better say something, you know, I mean, I don't know exactly how to do it right.

If you notice in these sort of high performing businesses, do they use other techniques other than maybe if I ask the question like this is sort of.

Some people are more confident at communicating verbally than others.

And particularly the younger generations are really struggling with verbal communication.

There are techniques where you can say, I'm going to ask a question, I want you to write some answers down.

We put them on a piece of paper, we bring it into the middle.

You know, at those sort of top level level situations you've worked in, is it just straight up verbal communication?

You gotta, you gotta get it out verbally or, you know, or do they, they break these meetings down?

Do you know what I mean?

I think one of the great things about what we do, what I do is you get to deal with so many different leaders.

Yeah.

And everyone's got a different style.

So you've got to read the room really quick.

One of the things that's most noticeable is instead of talking about a problem, people talk about an opportunity.

So I think that's a very real example.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's just how people are framing things.

Don't tell me it's a problem, tell me it's an opportunity to do things better.

That seems to be a very consistent tone at the moment.

It's very American to me.

It does, it does.

But the British way is let's talk about the problem and have a few beers.

But I think that's a very noticeable one in that space.

But I think to your earlier question there, I think an environment where so many people are working from home now, the ability to forge a career now in some industries must be incredibly hard because you can't necessarily be, you're in a virtual room, you're not in that real room.

And the ability just to catch somebody in the way into that meeting or the way out and have that conversation to build your brand and form a rapport, that's a real challenge for today's generation, I think.

Yeah.

And it'll be interesting to see what that looks like in 20 years time.

Well, Mark, I think your eloquence, succinct and intelligent review of the industry has been brilliant.

So thank you for doing this.

If people want to find you or your business, how do they find you?

Yeah.

So we've got a website www.profcg Prof.

What's Prof. Why Prof. Professional.

Is it?

Well, it was abbreviated from Prof.

So when I launched it was a real food professor.

That was what we launched under.

Well, I thought it was great, but I think it was probably a bit small.

And then I bought a consultant in that was an expert in brand and marketing and she really challenged my thinking.

And, yeah, we've.

We've now moved to profit.

I think it's.

It's.

It's a lot more in line with where we want to be.

It's cleaner, it's crisper of prophecy.

It sort of indicate.

Professional.

It's got a few different sort of.

It's alluding to a few different things.

Yeah.

And it's easy.

It's an easier handle to find on the website as well.

Brilliant.

So there you have it.

Thank you, D. Thank you, Mark.

Thank you, Romeo.

That was this week's episode of Business without, and we'll be back next Wednesday.

Until then, it's Ciao.

Sam.