Fulfilment through writing together on Substack with Clare Venus

Welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. This week I'm joined by Clare Venus, who is a wonderful creator over on Substack, and who also teaches other people how to Substack well. I'm really excited to bring you this chat, because in it we talk about why you might want to choose Substack, and why it might be a good home for psychologists and therapists who are looking to bring a bit more nuance than social media platforms generally allow. We also dive into Clare's personal journey with Substack, what attracted her to it, and how it allows her to use her creativity in a way that she might have been struggling to do in other places, which I think a lot of us can relate to. Finally, we also talk about the business side, and how Substack can fit into the business and the practice that you’re running, which I think is a really important consideration when we're thinking about embarking on any new social media platform or marketing strategy.

Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of Psychology

Substack Links for Clare:

@clairevenus

Creatively Conscious

Sparkle on Substack

Subscribe to Sparkle on Substack - Listener 30% Discount Link

Links for Rosie:

Substack: substack.com/@drrosie

Rosie on Instagram:

@rosiegilderthorp

@thepregnancypsychologist

The highlights

• Clare tells us a little bit about how she ended up on Substack and why she chose it 01:50
• I ask Clare about the ways that she’s seen psychologists and therapists using the platform 09:12
• Clare ​​walks us through the various bits of Substack and also how their like payment system works 16:07
• We talk about the different opportunities Substack provides us with 23:31
• We discuss membership models and structures 30:17
• I summarise the models you can have on Substack 33:50 
• Clare talks about SEO with Substack and other tips for setting up 36:03
• I ask Clare what is the first best step to take for a psychologist or therapist who thinks Substack could be a good place for them 39:24
• Claire give us her Substack links 42:14

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SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Clare Venus

Hello and welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. This week I'm joined by Clare Venus, who is a wonderful creator over on Substack, who also teaches other people how to Substack well. I'm really excited to bring you this chat with Clare because in it we talk about why you might want to choose Substack, why it might be a good home for psychologists and therapists who are looking to bring a bit more nuance than social media platforms generally allow. But we also dive into Clare's personal journey with Substack, what attracted her to it, and how it allows her to use her creativity in a way that she might have been struggling to do in other places, which I think a lot of us can relate to. And finally, we also talk about the business side, and how Substack can fit into the business and the practice that you’re running, which I think is a really important consideration when we're thinking about embarking on any new social media platform or marketing strategy. So I think you're going to find this episode really useful. Might be worth having your phone notes out or a pen to hand because Clare shares so much valuable advice. Enjoy.

Today we are incredibly lucky to have Clare Venus with us. Clare writes a beautiful newsletter on Substack called Creatively Conscious, and is also a Substack engagement consultant, so she helps others find their way on the platform with her special membership, Sparkle, on Substack. Clare, a huge warm welcome to the podcast. We've wanted to do this for ages.

Oh, it's so nice to be here Rosanna, and I always think these things happen at exactly the right time. So we have missed each other a couple of times, haven't we? And now I'm like, I'm so interested to get into this conversation to see why we had to wait for it.

Yes, exactly. So I guess the reason I was really pleased to have you on the podcast is that when I landed on Substack, I found it really intimidating. I kind of knew I wanted to be there because, as I've spoken about on the podcast before, I get quite disillusioned with short form content. It's not that I can't make it, I actually have loads of ideas for short form content, but I feel like as a psychologist, it's never telling the whole story and that just isn't fulfilling for me. It feels a little bit like giving people, you know, a sip of water when they're really thirsty and they need the whole thing, so I wanted to find a platform where there was a space for exploring bigger ideas in a more nuanced way, and Substack is that, especially now where it's got lots of bits to it. I felt really kind of intimidated and like I just didn't have the head space to learn a whole new platform, and that's when I came across you and Sparkle and it really helped me find my feet over there. But can you talk to us a little bit about how you ended up on Substack and why you chose it?

Yeah, and it's such a nice origin story for me. I really like to circle back because people often would presume that I'd been building online a long time, or I'd had an online business for a long time, but I actually hadn't. My background's in festivals and events. I used to run arts development projects. So it was very funding dependent and in the pandemic I would just, I was, all my work was canceled and I was really open to more online income streams and working globally. So I had discovered Substack in 2022, and it just felt really interesting to me because it was inviting us to write long form and I'd really missed that. I felt like when I had had blogs in the past, it was really hard to get readership. I definitely hadn't been in the good old days of blogging. I definitely missed that boat. So for me, it was like a place where I could write long form and I could really uncover what that voice was that was trying to come out post pandemic, in a world where we'd all gone online, we'd all experienced arguably the biggest shift in the digital lands that we have experienced, and I just was really curious what was asking to come out. So I didn't really ask anything of the platform to start with. I just wrote there. My husband was also writing there. I'd seen that Emma Gannon had shared a tweet that she'd moved her newsletter into Substack, and I love Emma Gannon's work, so I was like, that is very interesting. But essentially there was me, my husband, Emma Gannon, that I knew from the UK and then the head of UK writer partnerships, Farrah Storr, who's the ex Ad Editor of Marie Clare, so it was a really interesting time to be like, okay, so this has taken off in America, it's still a startup, but there's big grand plans for the platform. And then I was privy to a few of the beta testing platform elements, which was really interesting because I got to sort of sense the direction that they were going in. So they rolled out video, and I applied for video and I thought, okay, like I'll just get playful with this, I'll see how this feels. I was sharing little bits of vision board classes and connecting with people through that medium. I was building my confidence with paid subscribers because I just had a handful of them, but it felt like a more intimate place to share. So there was nothing expected of me, which I loved. And then I've grown since 2022 to have 16,000 subscribers now. So those are email subscribers. And I have, like you say, the Sparkle on Substack membership, which holds people to stay creative and monetise, organise their Substack, and I still write my weekly newsletter Creatively Conscious as well. So I feel like I have a gorgeous creative outlet, and then I chose to run my membership on the platform as well.

I really like the thread that runs through all of your work is this idea of staying creative while you are putting content out there, and I think that's something that really drew me to you because I feel that getting lost. You know, if I want a reel to do well, then basically I need to copy someone else's. You know, if I do something original, it will not do well. Hopping on a trend is what works.

It's the sort of difference between grabbing attention and sharing nuance, isn't it? And I think that's what we both want to do, which is why long form and podcast, I love podcasting as well, you know, and I think I am just a long form type of gal. I could do some of the social stuff, but mostly I get frustrated.

Yeah, same. And I think often probably a lot of people listening to this beat themselves up about not being able to do social media. When actually, I think sometimes we need to ask ourselves, why am I resisting this? Am I resisting this because I'm just scared or am I resisting it? Because actually it's not professionally fulfilling to me, it's not creative, and my time is so limited that I don't want to spend time doing something that feels like identi-kit.

I feel, and I have found my way with Instagram a bit more this year, so I've really enjoyed just putting some B-roll out there, putting some text over there and writing that text off platform. So I think when I was trying to do it all on platform, I was feeling quite squashed. But when that voice comes from my long form voice, so something I've already written on Substack, and then I just edit gently to kind of accompany the B-roll, that feels a lot easier. I think what feels harder is the attention grabbing stuff, because I don't think it works wonders for our wellbeing, and so it's at odds with what I want to do. I want to hold people to be really well when they're creating and to make sure that they don't burn out and all of that good stuff. But then to be on these platforms, we almost are being told we need to produce tons and tons of content and act like machines. So it's really at odds with that. So I definitely think I've found a balance with using Instagram and like LinkedIn now and again, but really, Substack is my home, my website is my home. I love it when people say, I discovered you through your podcast, or I discovered you through your YouTube videos. I love all that stuff and I think we have to be so conscious about what we actually do online, you know, and how we're showing up online. I like to talk about Substack as a springboard for the other places. So for example, with live video on Substack, Substack have this really clever editing tool, once you've done a live video, it goes over to YouTube and YouTube shorts. And then a couple of days ago, I checked mine from Friday, and there were thousands of views on the YouTube shorts, and I had no idea that all of that was going on. And I love that for us because it's one piece of content. I also used it to kind of jump into a longer form exploration of living in this home for 10 years, which was a newsletter piece. So I feel like we get to go deeper with our audience and we get to hold some of the nuance, and then Substack will do some of the work for us at producing the shorter form stuff. So I'll quite often put that stuff out on reels and get some views and get some people over. So there's lots of ways to use it where it's not burning you out, but you absolutely don't have to use all the features. You can keep it super simple, host a podcast there, or just host a newsletter there, or even articles as well, if you feel like you've got your newsletter home somewhere else and you want to try it out for more blog style articles, it's good for that too.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I suppose that brings us on to the ways that you've seen psychologists and therapists in particular using the platform, because there are lots of ways to use it. For me, it's basically a home for my free content. So I write there a lot about what it's like parenting children with additional needs and also how I've shaped my life around that. So I talk a bit of about business and how I've created a business that fits that life, but also I do go into the issues that that matter to, to parents of SEN children. And that's something that I didn't really want to do on, say, this platform, because the Business of Psychology is, you know, just for independent psychologists and therapists. And it didn't really feel like it fit on my Instagram either because that's quite businessy and it felt more personal, I wanted more space for nuance if I was going to share stuff from my personal life. So for me, that's kind of its place in the system, and then people can, if they choose to come onto my mailing list by downloading one of my freebies that are in all my footers, and then that tells me, oh, okay, they are an independent psychologist or therapist and they want to hear about more business stuff. Or if they're somebody that's looking for coaching around parenting or mental health support, they can download one of those freebies or go straight to my clinical website. So yeah, it's kind of a place of reaching new people but also nurturing relationships with people that want a bit more personal content from me. But there's loads of ways of using it, isn't there? Can you talk about a few examples that you see?

For sure. And I think the blend of the personal and the professional and the nuance within all of that is a real gift of Substack publishing. I feel like we can test ideas out in the inbuilt social media in notes. We can gather a bit of traction. You know, we can go live, like I've said, we can find colleagues from the other side of the world and have a chat with them on a live and kind of bring our audience into their spaces. So it feels like a really generous platform in that way. There's a few therapists that are in the membership, and they, one of them has a wonderful membership for other therapists, Sarah Rees, she's amazing. And again, it's really just that kind of gentle spoon feeding these are the things that might help you to run a more robust therapy business. So she's ex-NHS, so the idea was that I think that she could try and help them in private practice, so move away from the kind of the NHS caseloads. So I support Sarah quite a lot. And then there's a lovely lady, Kate, who, she lives in London, we've got a lot in common actually, because she has had long COVID, my husband has had long COVID as well, and she found that she couldn't work as a therapist anymore, so she set her Substack up Letters from Therapy, and she shares some therapeutic tools, she has a paywall where she can share more intimately. She'll do beautiful journals and things like that, so she'll advertise those. There's lots of people in the wellbeing world as well who are doing this dance with is it a paid newsletter? Is it a membership? Is it a hybrid? Is it for free content? So people are really allowing themselves to explore, and I'm always really clear with people that a paid newsletter is very different to a membership. You know, a paid newsletter is at the lower end of the price point and it's built on higher numbers. You know, you feeling paid for your writing and you feeling like you can hold an intimate community around a set of people that are like-minded, whereas a membership is, well, we know, you know exactly the same as it would be off platform, you're going to be offering chats and calls and responding to people on a deeper level and kind of building that over time. But both are possible on the platform. We set the prices so we can decide. In terms of the way that we can build a long-term content and podcast content, that's been really interesting as well, because Substack can be our podcast host and then it can pull through to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and there's no charge for any of that. So it's really freed up a lot of people to be able to share their voice, and think about it in a way that isn't overproduced or over-edited. So my podcasts are usually one long conversation. They go out on YouTube, there's a video podcast first, there's a little bit of light editing at the start and the end, and then they go out and then they pull through to the other platform. So I think people are also really open to that. And there's been something really interesting I've noticed in the trend of the last year, where people have been more open to sharing their voice, whereas that would've felt harder, I think they were more comfortable behind, you know, a really well thought out, researched, edited piece of writing. And now they're like, okay, what if I read that aloud and added that to the piece? So, what that does is it helps build the know, like, and trust factor for our audience. So like with yourself, you know, somebody hears you read a piece and hears the emotion behind it and all of the different nuance that you want to talk about, and then they think, oh, that's somebody that I really trust and I want to learn from and go deeper with. And they download how, you know, you've got it set up with the lead magnet. So I feel like it gives us that as well. It really gives us that space to share long form and to share intimacy, and that's what I really love about the platform. Also, the attention spans are longer, which helps us, you know, given what we said about social media.

Yeah. I feel like possibly things are shifting, but there's definitely a sense that people that use Substack go to it with intention to read longer articles. Or certainly there's a base of users that are using it in that way, because when I started on it, even, which wasn't that long ago, although, I guess I started playing with it like three years ago, but I didn't do much with it at that point. But that was very much how I would use it, I had a few that I was subscribed to, I would log in and enjoy reading them with a cup of tea or something. And I think it's really nice to have that feeling that people are deliberately coming to your work and will intentionally sit down and read it, rather than just being force fed it, which is how it might feel in other places. But I feel like we need to do a little review of the bits of Substack for people because it's, you know, we've talked a bit about the long form content aspect of it, which feels very much like any kind of email platform you might use. It's quite a nice experience actually, you can go in and write a long form article or record your video or record your podcast, and like Clare said, it will then kind of carve it up for you into shorter form bits of content that you can go and post other places. And that's the bit that Substack is best known for still, I think. But it's got other bits to it now, hasn't it? So can you walk us through those bits and also how their payment system works?

Yeah, for sure. So we've got subscriber only chat, so when people are subscribed to your Substack, either as free or paid subscribers, or there's a founding member tier, you can set up a chat space for them. So on Sparkle, it's very focused towards beginners that are overwhelmed. So my entrepreneurs and my business owners don't really hang out there very much, you know, they're purposeful, they're on with things. But the beginners, you know, they'll chat, they'll get accountability. I'll do like a once a month, ask me anything thread, I'll pop in every other week and say, okay, let's share some wins, this is who I've seen get a book deal, this person just hit a thousand subscribers, this person's just got bestseller, which is 101 paid subscribers. So there'll be bits like that popup. And then we've got the Notes network. So it's essentially like Twitter, but nicer. So you've got to kind of curate that a bit to start with. So when you first go on there, you'll be fed loads of things that you're not interested in, like any social media, you’ve just got to train it. So you just press the three dots and then you just mute the stuff that you don't like, and you like the stuff that you do like, it takes about two weeks and then you just have a really beautiful feed of like-minded people that you can chat with. Your subscribers technically will follow you on Notes, but they're still playing around with the algorithm, so I find it incredibly frustrating because I've got like 30,000 followers and I still get like really low engagement on Notes sometimes, and I'm like, how are 30,000 people seeing this? Like there's just no way. When I first went onto Notes when it first launched, it was like, it was just prolific. There was so many people, there was so much conversation, Notes would be, you know, 2-300 likes really easily, and then now it feels harder to be seen. So I think we just take that, that it is social media and we've got to look after our wellbeing in that sort of space. So I'll just use it as a really experimental place, I'll share some photography, you know, I might share a bit of a replay from a live I'll share a thought that I've had or some sort of photos from life, whatever you want to do in terms of updates. So those are some really interesting tools to play around with. But again, what I'll say to people is, you want to get your home sorted first, so your Substack home. So I've got a course called Your Beautiful Digital Magazine on Substack because it really helped people to see it as a digital magazine, especially people that run other email lists. So the idea is they set up this beautiful digital magazine, it's got different sections to it, you know, you've got your editor's letter if you like, your about page, you've got your pinned posts if you want to pin any posts. And then every time you send an email, you've also got the opportunity to post that to your Substack magazine or website. So that really helps in the reframe of overwhelm for people. And in terms of the payment, Substack partner with Stripe. They also now have a partnership with Apple. So, with Stripe, we can set the prices to be whatever we would like monthly and annually, and then there's the founding member tier, which can be a completely separate tier for people, so I use it for my Diamond membership. Just closed that actually, but that's how I was using it. And Substep take 10% and then there is Stripe processing fees. The idea is that obviously it's a great discovery tool and people who know the platform and like the platform can find what they need to find quite easily. The Apple idea, the kind of partnership with the Apple App Store is that again, it's a usability piece that people can upgrade from their phones. So our relationship as publishers is actually with Apple, so it kind of sidesteps Substack and Apple take 30%. So Apple will show your free subscribers the price inflated by 30%, and then that 30% goes to Apple, Substack take the 10% and you end up with about the same as you would've if they would've upgraded via the laptop or you know, the desktop version.

Oh wow, I didn't know about that. Oh, I'm not sure how I feel. That's strange.

I know it's really difficult. So they, when they first came out with it, I was very reluctant and I did apply for beta testing. I just thought, right, okay like, let's see how this goes. It was somebody that had upgraded on the app store, but also on the desktop with two different emails. So it was like, oh gosh, right, here we go. So, you know, there was that kind of space of trying to help them untangle all of that. So the customer service piece on that obviously is something to consider. Substack just do it because they think that it's going to bring us more paid subscribers.

I imagine it would, I think anything where you are removing friction generally helps. Like I love on my Kajabi site, I use the Apple Pay, and I was really chuffed when they brought that in because it definitely makes things easier for people. But it feels a little bit strange if people are not aware that it would be significantly cheaper for them if they did it on a different device. You know when you’re booking a flight…

It's how to manage it, isn't it? That, you know, as a publisher, you could say it, but it's so in the weeds of the detail, isn't it? It's really hard. So it was one of those pieces that a lot of us were like, oh, this is difficult. And you know, Substack are great, you know, they're very transparent. They'll do articles, you know, they'll respond… when you're a bestseller, so when you've got over a hundred and one paid subscribers, you can speak to support, so you can actually email support if anything crops up, and they'll do looms for you and things like that. But Substack will ask, you know, what do you guys need? Okay, well, it'd be great if you could do this, can you work on the functionality of that? And over the three and a half years I've been there, almost everything we've asked for has been rolled out. So, it is really interesting to me that they've done this partnership with Apple. Obviously they've done the maths on it. They need to make a sustainable business model, and I think when they first started, they were a platform for writers and it wasn't a sustainable business model because you need so many writers being paid such a large amount of money to make a tech company sustainable, that they had to sort of branch out and do other things. So now it's become a hybrid, a new engine for culture they call it, but a hybrid space where we can do as we…

I love that! New engine for culture. It's beautiful.

A new engine for culture, yeah. It's so interesting as well because they've obviously, they've got their bestselling writers, and I have actually found it easier to show up there since it wasn't all bestselling writers and incredible writers because it can feel quite intimidating. You know, like at first when you're reading all these incredible people, and you know, there's a leaderboard, so you can see who's kind of top at the leaderboard, so who's the big earners and all of that. And when I started doing my stuff, I was like edging towards the top of these leaderboards and just thinking, oh my goodness, like I don't write anywhere near the way that these people can write. Like, that's not my style, but it was also a big permission slip to me and my audience to say, oh, but we don't have to, we can do things our way. We can show up and we can have our smaller audiences and we can build intimacy and we can master the platform and have a wonderful time with it. So it was interesting that way. And it's so much bigger now, like it's exploded. There's loads of celebrities and stuff on there now, so it's definitely not the cozy Substack days, but it still is a world of opportunity.

Absolutely. And I think for me it's been about trying to find the place it makes sense for me in the journey that my clients or customers have with working with me. And I think the number one piece of advice I always give people with any marketing platform is decide where it fits in your customer journey and don't do anything until you're clear on that. Because it, there's so much you can do with Substack that it's really tempting and I, you know, you probably know this because I joined Sparkle and I experimented with pretty much all the different ways that you can use the platform, and I settled on what felt right for me, which actually isn't using the payment features, which I really thought it would be. When I first came, I was really excited about being able to charge for my newsletter because I wanted that kind of smaller audience, I thought at the time. And then I experimented with it. I put out a few kind of requests for pledges and things, and then when they started coming in, my immediate gut reaction was, no, I don't want to write it anymore. Which, you know, probably says a lot about my psychology and demand avoidance.

But I hear, I hear it a lot. It's definitely not you. Like it almost can take the spark out when you have to do something. Like if you're doing something for free, it's from a different place. It's from a place of reciprocity, self-expression. If you're doing something and it's, you know, there's a customer interaction in that, it just does massively change it. So, sounds like you did the right thing.

Yeah, and I think that's what I love about your teaching though. It's very much that, you know, try something out, see how it feels. If it feels like it's not aligning with your values, then go back to the drawing board, revisit. And, you know, I've done that multiple times and I think that it's now found the right place in the customer journey. But I do wish I'd reflected a bit more on that at the beginning, and especially if you're very time poor, if you don't have time to throw loads of spaghetti at the wall, I think at least being clear on who you want to write for and at what stage they're at in their journey with you when you're writing for them, can help you get started if you're feeling a little bit kind of low on time and a bit nervous about getting going.

Yeah, and you can do it as a passion project as well. Like, you know, we are all busy, you know, we're busy in our lives, we're busy in our work, but I'm a real big fan of creative expression and passion, and I get a lot of people who don't put any expectation on what their Substacks are going to be. They just want to self express and they just want to kind of kindle something that they feel passionate about. So, sometimes retired people, but not always, like sometimes people are just like, I just wonder what this is like and I'm going to do this for six months. And I think that's a real gift to ourselves, isn't it? To be able to creatively self-express and just see what comes up.

Yeah, and it's okay to have a hobby. I feel like there was a time when we used to have hobbies and that's okay. Whereas there's this big culture of, you know, every hobby has to be monetisable and it's, no, it doesn't, it doesn't, like you can just do something for the love and the joy of it. And yeah, I wish we could inject a bit more of that back into our society. I mean, it's a bit of a sidebar, it depresses me because I think that's set up in childhood with all of the, oh, you can't just play the guitar, you've got to do exams and pass through all of these gates to get to this place where, oh, now you're allowed to perform. It's like, hold on, surely the joy of playing the guitar could be there from day one. You're doing it. You're playing. You are playing and singing. And why do you have to get a certificate to say you are now good enough to be listened to by others? And what I think could be really nice about Substack is there's no gate. You can put your stuff out there without anybody telling you whether it's good enough or not, and just do it for the joy of expressing yourself, a bit like, you know, a kid playing the guitar without somebody breathing down their neck about doing grade one or two or three.

Yeah, definitely. I think it's so interesting like, to master something, but all the hours of practice that we would need. But to self-express, that's like a different track. Like you don't need to master something to be able to self-express. And I think we've forgotten that the path to anywhere is messy and it is paved with us feeling like maybe, oh, I should have done it like that, or perhaps I should, I could do it like this. But that is the journey. And you know, we don't have to show up as polished human beings, you know? And I think the internet has taught us some strange things about… I think some of it's the vanity metrics and some of it's kind of those numbers that creep in that make us feel like, well, if we've not got this many numbers and it's all public, then people won't listen to us or whatever else, and yeah, out on Substack for me, the opposite has been true because the intimacy of the conversations that I have, it's just on another level, you know, there's such a deep connection and I've met a lot of the people who subscribe to my Substack in person. Well, not a lot of them, but you know, I've met people. Like I went over to New Orleans to speak at the writer MBA conference earlier this year, and one of the ladies who'd taken one of my courses, the one that I mentioned, actually, she was also there. And we went for dinner and it was just the loveliest thing. And we've met because of a platform. I just love that, you know, that that's possible. And I think yeah, it's like we were moving away from people and followers as commodities, as ways to build our business and back into nuance and conversation and connection. And I always try to focus on that because I think it can drive you a bit mad, like looking at statistics and numbers and stuff and feeling a certain type of way. Like the recent thorn in my side is the unsubscribes because I've hit a bit of a plateau and so I'm really sitting with what it means to plateau out, you know, like, okay, so, we're plateauing out because more people are leaving, the new people are coming, but new people still are coming, so which one do I want to be true? You know, the conversations with the new people or the sadness about people moving on? Actually I should be over the moon that people feel ready to just go off and they've almost like graduated Sparkle. They've had everything that they wanted and they kind of want to just focus in on their own stuff. Yeah, I applaud everybody for that, really. But it's just hard, isn't it? Because we've positioned ourselves as female writers to try and build something behind us, and it comes with this really strange energy of like being good enough because of the numbers. It's hard.

It is hard, and I think that membership model is particularly difficult. And that's how I started Psychology Business School. It was an ongoing membership and there isn't that kind of natural point where you expect people to leave, but of course, in reality, there is a point when they've had what they need and they're ready to move on. And so I actually changed the structure of the business school so that there would be natural graduation points.

Nice. I love that.

Partly because of that, because it did feel sad when it shouldn't have. But it's very human, it's very natural to feel that way. And it's much harder with the kind of model that you've got. But then it's nice for the member that it is that way, because it means there isn't that time pressure of I must get through this. So there's, there's pros and cons I think, to both ways of doing it. And it's great that you've recognised one of the downsides is that it feels sad when people leave sometimes.

Yeah, definitely. And that's really nice to hear because that's the way that I'm moving into 2026. So I've got a new program called Audience Alchemy, which focuses on using long form content, the writing, the podcast, the YouTube videos, to then bounce into how we show up on socials in a really soulful way. And it is a program rather than a membership. So it's like an eight week program and for ages, I grappled with it. You know, I spoke to my coach and mentor and I was like, can I really have two memberships? This feels weird, like it's, it's enough managing the one membership. And then also what I've learned about the customer service in memberships is that can be quite wearing. So I always say to people, you know, yes, you might want to be a Substack bestseller with 101 paid subscribers, but as soon as you move past that in a membership model, you're going to have to do customer service and quite a bit of it. And it's not that easy to outsource it because we are front and center. You know, the people have got access to us in the DMs. You can't do like an out of office DM. I've asked for that. I've asked for that feature. But if you could have, then I could have held them and I could have put them through with one of my assistants or something. But really it has to be me. So for now, it's like I'm leaning into that and it's me and I'm there. But sometimes I worry because I'm like, oh, does that person subscribe? I feel like I recognise their name and you know, so it's a lot to hold. And so with the programs, I feel like with those, it's like I get to hold them, I get to hold the people, I can write their names down on Post-It notes, I can hold them for a period of time, and then we can close that energetic portal and I'll be doing something else. And so I think for me as a creator, that was a real breakthrough. Similar to you, I think, where it was like, I love Sparkle, I'll always do Sparkle, It's going to be there for people, but I don't want it to be everything that I do. I need to do some other things and to kind of hold people in different ways as well.

Yeah. And I think it's really helpful to think about what is the business model that fits best for where you’re at in your life, and also what your customers need. And we always talk about that on this podcast, looking for that alignment between what we need and also what our client groups need from us. And that evolves over time. People often come to me looking to create this perfect business model that they'll never need to change. But of course you'll be changing and evolving every year, every two years because you learn more about what people need from you and society moves around us. So yeah, I think we'll always be evolving and Substack does give us some room to do that. So just to recap the kind of models that you can use on Substack, so the people have got it clear in their minds what their options are. We've got free newsletter, we've got paid newsletter, you've got the combination of both where some posts are free and some posts are behind a paywall. You've got the option of adding a chat to that, you can have a subscriber chat, and again, you can pay wall that bit, can't you, as well? You can have a membership where you have videos and resources that only paid subscribers can get access to. And you can also use it to run a bit like your programs, a bit of a hybrid of a traditional membership with like learning resources and classes, but also with coaching calls which you would kind of put out there by putting a Zoom link into a post. Is that right?

Yeah, so I do everything via Luma, actually. I really like Luma, so I'll do, I've just got like a live calls tab, and then I'll list all of the call topics and then the Luma links so people can sign up to the Luma links and get the Zoom calls that way. But you could just pay wall the Zoom links if you wanted to do it that way instead, easy.

Great. And then you've got Notes, which is like the social media aspect that helps you promote whatever you are doing and you can use to connect with new people as well, theoretically, at least. But the most important thing, best tip, really good tip from you and I found it so helpful myself, is whatever you're using it for, get your Substack home sorted. I love that analogy of it as like a beautiful magazine that really helped me psychologically. And it's very useful if you are multi-passionate as well because you can section things off, give people choice about what topics they read about from you and yeah, that's a feature we haven't talked about much but I love in Substack, because I know because I have readers who are with me because they like the business, and I have readers who are with me because they got really sick in pregnancy, or because they've got children with neurodevelopmental difficulties, then there are people who are not going to want to hear everything I have to say, and Substack does allow them to unsubscribe from bits and stay subscribed to other bits, which I really like.

Yeah, we've got the facility of sections and like you said about setting up your Substack, I think that reflected back to us allows us to hold what it is. And it's great for SEO as well. So we know now that we've got to kind of build our authority, don't we, across the internet airwaves with SEO and Substack is great for that too. So if you claim your Substack publication URL that's the same name as your business or your name, if you use your name. My advice is to claim both if you can. So I have ClareVenus.Substack, but I also have Creatively Conscious and I also have now Sparkle on. But it is really good to do that because then you've got it and it just helps in the big scheme of everybody searching the internet to try and find what it is that you do and connect to you, so it's good for that. It's really handy as well to like remind people to subscribe because it has gone more into this blog territory where people can read for free up to a point, especially if you're not using paywalls. So it's good to remind people about the subscribe. You know, keep those subscribe buttons high up, make sure that people know that there's a gift in the welcome email we get. One welcome email, but they're just rolling out drip funnels as well. So there are various different drip funnels that have just been rolled out to some bestsellers. So I'm just grappling with all that at the moment. So there will be some, like a little welcome sequence that you'll be able to do. So you really want to try and get people to subscribe, give you their email address, and then obviously you've got it and they'll get future emails that you send.

That's really nice and you know, I love that idea of sending a welcome email that's got a sort of free gift in it. I think for two reasons. Firstly, it's really nice to be generous to people that have subscribed and to give them a good reason to want to subscribe. But also I think it allows you to learn more about that person. You know, for my audience, I might think about offering two because then that segments people in a way that Substack doesn't do itself. And so if I offered people two free downloadables, I can see which one they've gone for, and then segment them in my other email marketing platform, which I think is a helpful workaround for the fact Substack doesn't segment people.

Yeah, definitely. I think that's a really interesting way with it, and especially because you do have those niches, Rosanna, so that would be a really interesting way to do it and just make that really clear in the welcome email and describe to people, you know, as they're about to sign up, that sometimes it goes to junk. So make sure that junk and promotions, now we've got that rolled out, so make sure that they drag it out of junk and then it should hopefully appear there. But yeah, I love the creativity of it all. I feel like it's a really great time to be experimenting on Substack. Obviously you can come over to Sparkle and have ready-made colleagues ready to cheerlead you and support you. Everybody is so supportive, especially with the beginners, they're very warm to that. And then the business owners, and all of the ways that I hold business owners as well, I just think like you, I figured out actually this is really great to be able to have this space and then also to bring people in. I use Podia, which is like Kajabi, so to bring people into my Podia sphere as well for courses and classes and be able to target them with email sequences and things like that. So it works really well.

So what would you say is the first best step that a psychologist or therapist listening to this who might be a little bit nervous, but thinks Substack could be a good place for them to explore should take?

Hmm, interesting. So I feel like if you know a little bit about who your online audience would be, either because you've used social media or you've got that sense of who you would like to attract in, it's almost easier. And what I would advise is right in your about page and hero post. So a hero post is just your first sort of pinned post where you're really introducing yourself and you are telling people what to expect. So you might not know a lot of that, but what you do know, just tell them. Just say, I'm here to figure it all out, I'm hoping to post once a month. Like, you don't have to give them the specifics until you know them, but just so people know what they're coming into. I often use the analogy of if your Substack was a place, where would it be? So, you know, is it a cozy coffee shop? Is it a theater? Is it a beach party? You know, are we standing on top of the mountaintop having adventures, like what are we doing here? And just trying to kind of be more descriptive about what we're asking people to do. Don't call it your Substack, it just confuses people and it's really muted on social media. So I use ManyChat to deliver links on Instagram, but I do have struggles because obviously I teach about Substack, so when I talk about it, it does get muted and I get less views and stuff on stories.

Oh, that's interesting. Is that because they don’t want competition?

Yeah, so don't say to sign up to your Substack, just try and find a different way in. Like, you know, he's a teaser of an article, I'll send you the link or something like that if you're promoting on social media, is a quirky thing. But yeah, I feel like that self-expression and that kind of invitation first, and then that welcome email piece. So why and why would people subscribe and what will they get in their welcome email, which hopefully for the people listening, there could be a couple of ideas there that would really help. Might be a nice audio, could be a PDF, could be a class, it could be anything really, but we want really high value lead magnets. Obviously that's a marketing term, but you'll know what I mean. It's like we don't just want something like thrown together. You want to give them the best value that connects with you, and then just, yeah, take them on a journey, see where you want to go with it. Maybe you want to write seasonally, maybe you want to write monthly. Maybe it's weekly. Maybe you want to kind of do more with colleagues that are already using the platform and try and sort of grow some of your audience that way. But there's so many ways with it. I think staying connected to the joy and writing through the weeds of it all to kind of find, okay, like this is what I want to talk about here, is just a really nice permission slip for us all.

Yeah, definitely. I think it's been so helpful to talk to you, Clare, and I reckon a lot of people listening to this are going to be excited to come over and check you out on Substack. So just remind us where the best place to find you is. Give us your links again.

Yeah, sure. So I write Creatively Conscious, which is a paid newsletter. So usually do two free posts a month, and then a couple of paid posts, and that is a traditional paid newsletter model. And then I have Sparkle on Substack, which is my Substack education membership. So we focus on joyful, sustainable growth and staying creative on the platform. So deepening connection, mastering all the tools that Substack give us, being discerning and making good decisions about what we want to do there. So that's a lovely place, I'd love to invite your listeners in and I do a 30 day free trial for anybody that I've podcasted with, so I'll make sure that you guys have got the link to that so you can just have a look around without any obligation, you know, shoot me a DM if you end up heading on over there. I love to chat to people and understand what's brought people here, how they're thinking about it in terms of business. I do have courses as well, classes, they're all on my website, so I feel like my office suite with Substack is just jam packed. I've sort of created everything for everyone, and that's why next year I'm pivoting more into this audience alchemy space, which I'm excited about. But anything that you need, whether it's podcast and video, setting your Substack up as a magazine, I've got all the classes and courses and stuff like that on there, so just come and find me.

Amazing, and I really can recommend it. I'm in there and I found it so valuable for my journey on Substack. So thank you so much for being with us today, Clare.

You're so welcome. It was nice to chat